It seems the aim of this exercise was never to break Odo - he was perhaps too strong to be broken (or so we thought - in Changeling terms he was still a child compared to other Founders). The aim really was to break Garak.
It was meant to be like that, that is the whole point. And Garak hates it. He hates to do it and to not be able to finish it. DS9 has indeed changed him.
At the end of the torture scene you see Garak finally realize that he's no longer the same person anymore and that he actually feels remorse for torturing someone he knows. While in the past he probably never gave it a 2nd thought.
I bet he hated his work back then. Sure he didn't like being exiled but he didn't like his profession either. Wouldn't be the first cardasian either who felt like that. I remember one cardiasn turned himself in for war crimes and was impersonating his (long dead) commander so he would pay for said war crimes.
Garak's face when Odo is talking about how he's tried to deny his people but he can't is pure anguish. Garak looks like he might rip in two with his own despair.
Too bad the clip cuts short before you see Garak turn off the device and then hang his head in shame For being such a morally ambiguous character he had a lot of humanity
@@kyrozudesoya1829 Garak always had a conscience, he just had a different view of morality than the Federation with its sense of fairplay and right and wrong. He was pragmatic to the extreme and was very authoritarian politically, the Cardassians being the Star Trek equivalent of fascists For him, his magnetic north was his love for his own people, for whom nothing was too extreme. He was prepared to live in disgrace for the greater good of his homeland In this moment, he saw himself in Odo, and that's why it hurt. They were of a kind, outcastes with a fierce devotion to duty that went beyond themselves, both longing for home
@@kyrozudesoya1829 It reminds me of the conversation he and Quark had, where Quark had him try root beer and they agreed that the Federation was insidious in that you would come to like it with enough exposure.
Nimoy gets mad props for Spock Spiner gets mad props for Data Where's the mad props for Auberjonois' Odo? He definitely has a certain flair for sarcasm.
The whole cast was amazing that none of them really stood out. But for me, Odo was always my favorite, and Garak my favorite recurring character. Since Rene's death, I know that Rene has and will continue to get mad props for Odo. He was so good at being able to project so emotionally through that mask. He was a master and we will always miss him.
Because Odo is not Starfleet. It really is that simple. People have more affinity for Spock and Data because of their uniforms. Jeri Ryan is overlooked, too.
It’s so so brilliant that Odo tortures Garak here as much as he does him. Well, almost as much. It’s also brilliant that Odos form is so creepy here too.
Also great cinematography. They start with a slight Dutch tilt (that's where the camera is at an angle) with Garak at the beginning and Odo is still standing upright (camera wise) then, as the scene becomes more uncomfortable and tense the camera angle increases for both men as the music increases in tension and the actors raise their voices. It's one of the most unsettling scenes I've ever seen in all of television. It perfectly captures the harsh emotions and uncomfortable reality of the fact that Garak is forced to torture a man he considers a friend and all Odo can do is spit venom back at him because he has no power to do anything else because he's literally falling apart at the seams. This is straight up magic if we ever saw it. It's something you don't see often, and don't see on Star Trek at all anymore.
@@pittland44 watching and reading comments like these that analyse DS9 scenes always amazes me by reminding my how purely amazing DS9 was. The writing and acting were the best of the best, and the camerawork and music score just add to it!
They're kindred spirits, when he tortured Odo it's like he's torturing himself they both want to go back home but never can (well not yet) and the guilt drives him crazy, enough that he changes his mind. In a way, Odo saved Garak.
It hurts to see both of them in pain. One physically and the other mentally and emotionally. They truly are so much more alike each other than they realize.
At the end of the day, they each find solace in the fact that they are to exceptionally strong and prideful men, who at the most base core, just want to go home and be accepted by their people.
This scene is a testament to how fantastic both Rene Auberjonois and Andrew Robinson are. Odo and Garek are two of the main reasons DS9 is the best Star Trek show.
This episode had confirmed my head Canon that Garak, while capable of very dark things, he has his hard limits. In fact, i always believed that Tain had him exiled because he actually ordered Garak to do something so vile, that when he just couldn't do it, he mercilessly had his own son exiled. He didn't even show him the "mercy" of a swift execution, but lifelong exile in a stronghold of his people's hated enemies. Tain is 10 times more evil than Gul Dukat ever could be.
Also Tain's hubris is what got him killed in the end. He was so full of himself that he thought they could just waltz into the Gamma quadrant and kill the founders. He was more vile than Dukat, yes, but Dukat knew when to hold back.
Me too ,but I worry he had to spend time in exile away from his people hem trousers in the shop without much hope of going home. So that he learnt a slow resentment for Federation policy that is bogged down with morality. He needed this to be the man he is. God forbid he was giving unfetted access to Cardassian power. He would of found someone else to absolve his guilt in time. But this way He hustled it the hard way. I would always love to see a arc for him somewhere. And hopefully he has reinstated the order and got Cardiassians back under a Cardassian foot. He needed to say no and be shown the other side so that he would Remember his culture and restore order.
Of course, he then goes over, turns it off and Odo pours into his bucket. They also said that the two actors wanted that close-up to be done to add to the effect of the exchange. The actors on DS9 had a say in the flow of the show, which is what made it so awesome!
Beautiful scene, but I hate that this video cuts off right before two great moments. One where Garak sits in silence as he lets Odo return back to liquid state, guiltstruck at how he's torn a man to pieces physically and emotionally just to find he is an exile desperate to go home like him. The other where Garak returns to the bridge to speak to Embran Tain, and returns to his confident persona to say that he got nothing out of Odo, knowing that even if the information was of any use to the Obsidian Order, he could never speak it. Absolutely one of my favorite episodes
The whole episode is sublime, both parts, but the ending really gets me. They've both come to understand one another a bit better, Garak's apology to Odo on the runabout when he thinks they're going to die, Odo acknowledging he understands what it's like to be an exile and want nothing more than to go home. And later in the ruins of Garak's shop, the way the two speak. Garak still feels guilty for hurti g Odo but Odo doesn't think at all about the moment, he's put it behind him.
I have the original DVD collections for all seven season of DS9, and in the bonus content for this episode, the director said he staged and shot theses scenes with Garak and Odo with the same degree of "intimacy" (ie, the closeness) that you would normally expect to see from a 'romantic' scene between two characters, and it shows!
Odo and Garak are remarkably alike. They both deeply desire to go home. The key difference is that Garak can't go home because he has been cast out, while Odo would be welcomed, but can't bring himself to betray his own sense of justice. Perhaps that's what ultimately touches Garak: The realization of how petty his willingness to do anything to go home is compared to Odo's steadfastness.
2:00 This is the exact moment in which Odo is gripped with fear, like everybody else who is going to be tortured. He thought himself immune and for good reason, but now that his power is stripped from him, he realises that there is a pain that can be inflicted upon him that he simply cannot bear. As a consequence, his first act is to bargain - saying that it is pointless and that he knows nothing.
"why didnt they use this during the war?" Well, for one thing it only seems to work on the timetable of changelings needing to assume liquid form. So, unless you plant these in every crew barracks and officers' room, *without telling them*, that's not gonna do much. Secondly, as we see, it's literal torture. If Sisko's arc demonstrates anything it's that Star Fleet is very much teetering on the edge of becoming something they don't want to be and are mostly trying not to be
It also assumes the Founders have no actual counter for it or that Starfleet knows the exact plans. After all, the device comes from the Obsidian Order which gets essentially wiped out in this episode, the Dominion captures Tain and possibly other survivors who could tell them how it works, and they have high end technology which could potentially be put to use unlike Odo who was captured on his lonesome and without any support.
Lord this show worked on so many levels. Watching both men losing their composure. It was so masterfully done. In the end Garak couldn't do it. He couldn't go on torturing someone that he held respect for. The simple line of "Lie, if you have to..." tells you so much about where Garak is, in that moment. DS9 is easily the best of the post TOS shows.
GARAK: Yes, it must be very disconcerting for you to be locked into a humanoid form. Especially now. Odo walks over to the device, picks it up and smashes it to bits on the ground. ODO: Not really.
Good point! I‘m sure even without altering his biomolecular structure Odo is stronger than Garak. Garak couldn’t possibly stop Odo from disabling the device.
I thought that too lol!! The only plot reason I can think of is that Odo didn’t think he could incapacitate Garak & the device without the commotion alerting the armed guards outside the room.
it doesn't hurt that Odo isn't great at expressing emotion through all that makeup (even when he isn't shown deteriorating) but Garak ALWAYS shows his expressions clearly
This is the first moment that Garak realized he would never go home to the Cardassia he knew. First he changed into a man who didnt fit into society. Then by the time he actually come home the Cardassia he knew is no longer there.
I can see and hear a little bit of the Scorpio Killer surface in Garak's voice and face just before he starts the interrogation - even after all these years, Andrew Robinson's still got it. :)
It's ironic how similar both of them are. Both want to return home, above all else. In the end, they both do...only for it to be the most painful, heartbreaking moment of their lives.
This is a well done scene, but it brings up some questions. One is why changelings are not treated as the deadly melee threats they are. The guards weren't even looking at Odo before the device was turned on, and other changelings are similarly allowed to get close to people. The other is why there isn't a force field around the projector. Odo could just walk over and smash it. Also, why don't they project fields like this throughout critical areas of ships and stations? You could have checkpoints where you check to see if people are changelings while keeping them from attacking or fleeing.
They probably knew what sort of person Odo was, that he wouldn't attack them without reason. As for him smashing the device, without his shape shifting abilities Odo is probably only as strong as a regular humanoid and Garak would have stopped him, he also could have called the guards. It also wouldn't have done him any good as the room still has a forcefield around it. Regarding having those devices at checkpoints or vital areas, that's a good idea. But i'm sure it would be talked away due to some techno reason. Like the field will damage vital systems if left on for too long, or it will be harmful to solids over extended periods of time...
Yeah, it's a screw up. In Enterprise, they make a point to explicily say the Suliban were extremelly dangerous, changelings are infinite worse and no one seems to Care.
This might be my favorite scene in the entire series, the struggle of moral ambiguity of the two: Garak between the Cardassians and his old friends, and Odo between the Federation and his people.
3:57 that’s why I loved Garak. The reason he was on the station in the first place was never uncovered…it’s fairly obvious it’s because he had a moral dilemma and decided to do the right thing regardless of the outcome though.
I like how Odo shows terror and vulnerability when his loses his confidence and tries to talk Garak out of going thru with the torture after he realizes he can't change his form. So much more believable than just being the tough guy who stands up to it and endures the torture stoically. Odo breaks as we all would eventually...
So no changeling has ever harmed another until Odo, correct? Except for the one here who allowed Odo to be harmed. He was not killed, but that is not what the founders said, they said harmed. And Odo was harmed
Garak (Andrew Robinson) masters the art of speech. Only his intonation excels his words. In all the decades I never tire listening and watching these DS 9 videos of him.
If he did it, Romulans would kill him. They agreed for Garak to torture him to extract information, otherwise they would have no use for both of them. Also, Odo is not totally innocent victim. He was Chief of Security under Cardassian occupation and he was taking part in torturing and executing prisoners. I think both of them are breaking down in this episode: they were both ruthless interrogators and torturers, yet in this scene it shows they both show emotions and they hate what they are doing.
You might as well ask why didn't Odo escape before they even put him in a room with that device... the answer is obvious... he wouldn't get far, they would kill him before word would get out what was happening there
Garak was more than a match for Odo as long as he's a solid, he would have stopped Odo more than likely...and besides, a device like that may have been coded for Garak only.
"But before you go for a swim, I have a few questions that need answe---" Odo ignores him, and turns into liquid in his bucket before anyone can react. "Well.....crap."
I don't want to detract in any way from the remarkable acting and dialogue, but I will say Odo's make up in this scene completes it. The way it conveys how it he is literally falling apart is gruesome and sinister, without overshadowing the other elements of the scene.
"Lie to me if you have to", my father once told me that people being tortured long enough will say just anything to make it end, meaning Odo doesn't care if he's fed a lie; he wants it over as much as his prisoner does.
Some people say when there is torture two are actually tortured. Both the torturer and the tortured. Certainly if they have a conscience. But it does affect both forever. It seems Garak was more tortured than Odo on this one
I'm kinda surprised that Odo never tried to destroy the device. I don't know if he COULD have, it's just weird that he didn't even try to knock it over, press buttons to mess it up, whatever.
Yeah it's a bit of a plot hole, but keep in mind that it only blocks shapeshifting, it doesn't reveal them. So a disguised changeling wouldn't care about being near this device as long as they can continue carrying out their mission. Also if the area of effect is small (only this small room), you'd need them all over a ship to be effective, and perhaps there's reasons why that just wouldn't work. Also, maybe a more powerful Founder can shapeshift anyways, we've seen that Odo is somewhat weak and inexperienced compared to others of his kind.
@augustday9483 all good points. I'll add that the Obsidian order and Tal Shiar probably kept the device to themselves and the prototype was lost in the destruction of their fleet.
@@augustday9483 yeah but think of later episodes where they test people for changeling dna and every single time they get caught they immediately shapeshift and escape. It's one of the dumber recurrences on the show.
What works here best is that it shows how much they actually appreciate each other, neither wants to do what they're doing, and both of them have a lot more in common than they ever realized. Both of them want to go home, but Garak can't because the home he remembers no longer exists, and Odo can't because of how different he really is. If you take the game as canon, he goes on to start a new link with changelings who have come to see things from his point of view.
Why didn't Odo, even in his human form only, just smash that fragile device so casually left on the table easily within his reach with only Garak there to defend it at short notice?
Garak would have called the guards. OTOH, Odo knew rather well, that if Garak didn't interrogate Odo, Tain would no longer have any use for Garak. The tragedy was in having to let the game play out to the most inhumane effect. (On a ship where no-one was human anyway.)
You ended right before the best part, where Garak rushes to turn off the machine, Odo returns to his liquad state to rest and heal and Garak puts his head down in disgust of what he has done
Odo handles this extremely well but he knew the reality Garik was working with he is a security professional, both of their lives were at stake in truth and this was not lost on him.
4:15 oh! The dichotomy!!!! This is fantastic story telling! One at the precipice of returning home from exile, and another longing to return home from self choice(?) Garak and Odo are in the same position, of sorts.
Altho! This could be a ruse by the super confident Odo. To tug at heart strings of Garak! Whom he's surely discerned is attempting to return to his father.
After listening to the audiobook "A Stitch in Time" these makes much more sense. Garak is a patient man. He doesn't been brute force, or drugs. Just time...
Such a pity the Obsidian Order kept that device such a closely guarded secret. They could have replicated them en masse then put them all over the place. Founders wouldn't be able to infiltrate anymore. It would essentially take away their greatest power.
i mean Odo could have just knocked the device off the table. They just put it together in front of him so if it comes apart, he can then go tentacle monster on Garrak and the guards.
I know how serious it is and how freaked out Odo must be not being able to change shape, but I can't help but laugh at how ridiculous it looks when he throws his hand at the camera and grunts.
This episode was the final time I had even a splash of compassion, care or concern for Garak. Watching his torture of Odo shows me the inhumanity I shall never be able to forgive.Ever.
What makes it more terrifying is that I've heard words like Garak uses to justify his disgusting action coming out of the mouths of military officers and LEOs. We are used to think of them as our protectors but I would recommend staying ready for when they, if ever, choose to switch their role
@@christophermarkee5445 That's how I saw it, too. Every time he speaks to Odo while the latter is in clear pain from being unable to change shape just becomes more desperate until he (Garak) pleads with Odo to tell him his secret. Garak broke first.
Garaks "ODO TALK TO ME" Is less the screams of a torturer and more of a "dont make me continue this please!"
It seems the aim of this exercise was never to break Odo - he was perhaps too strong to be broken (or so we thought - in Changeling terms he was still a child compared to other Founders). The aim really was to break Garak.
good point, garak broke odo, but odo broke garak... i hadn't thought about that b4
Yeah, it's dark. Garak is begging for it to end.
It was meant to be like that, that is the whole point. And Garak hates it.
He hates to do it and to not be able to finish it. DS9 has indeed changed him.
Man you cut the best part. Garak disabling the field, Odo reverting to his liquid form, and then Garak sits and puts his head in his hands.
At the end of the torture scene you see Garak finally realize that he's no longer the same person anymore and that he actually feels remorse for torturing someone he knows. While in the past he probably never gave it a 2nd thought.
I bet he hated his work back then. Sure he didn't like being exiled but he didn't like his profession either. Wouldn't be the first cardasian either who felt like that. I remember one cardiasn turned himself in for war crimes and was impersonating his (long dead) commander so he would pay for said war crimes.
@@ixiahj Marritza, that was a rough episode.
@@Zom13y "Duet," one of the best episodes in the entire series
@@Zom13y That scene of him breaking down to Kira makes me cry everytime. What a phenomenal episode that was
Kira? Also, I was tortured, it's not that tame.
Garak's face when Odo is talking about how he's tried to deny his people but he can't is pure anguish. Garak looks like he might rip in two with his own despair.
Too bad the clip cuts short before you see Garak turn off the device and then hang his head in shame
For being such a morally ambiguous character he had a lot of humanity
@@SonofTiamat I think it's safe to say being on the station around the others had a positive effect on his conscience.
@@kyrozudesoya1829 Garak always had a conscience, he just had a different view of morality than the Federation with its sense of fairplay and right and wrong. He was pragmatic to the extreme and was very authoritarian politically, the Cardassians being the Star Trek equivalent of fascists
For him, his magnetic north was his love for his own people, for whom nothing was too extreme. He was prepared to live in disgrace for the greater good of his homeland
In this moment, he saw himself in Odo, and that's why it hurt. They were of a kind, outcastes with a fierce devotion to duty that went beyond themselves, both longing for home
@@kyrozudesoya1829 It reminds me of the conversation he and Quark had, where Quark had him try root beer and they agreed that the Federation was insidious in that you would come to like it with enough exposure.
I figure that Garak had similar emotions about his people, too.
RIP to Rene. A truly great actor.
I can't believe it's been three weeks already.
@@sarahkinsey5434 I know.
Garak killed him?😲
Nimoy gets mad props for Spock
Spiner gets mad props for Data
Where's the mad props for Auberjonois' Odo? He definitely has a certain flair for sarcasm.
The whole cast was amazing that none of them really stood out. But for me, Odo was always my favorite, and Garak my favorite recurring character. Since Rene's death, I know that Rene has and will continue to get mad props for Odo. He was so good at being able to project so emotionally through that mask. He was a master and we will always miss him.
Let's also not forget Robinson for his role as Garak, he was brilliant too.
Because Odo is not Starfleet. It really is that simple. People have more affinity for Spock and Data because of their uniforms. Jeri Ryan is overlooked, too.
This entire series is under ratted!
The "Gene's vision" people won't even admit the show existed.
It’s so so brilliant that Odo tortures Garak here as much as he does him. Well, almost as much. It’s also brilliant that Odos form is so creepy here too.
Also great cinematography. They start with a slight Dutch tilt (that's where the camera is at an angle) with Garak at the beginning and Odo is still standing upright (camera wise) then, as the scene becomes more uncomfortable and tense the camera angle increases for both men as the music increases in tension and the actors raise their voices. It's one of the most unsettling scenes I've ever seen in all of television. It perfectly captures the harsh emotions and uncomfortable reality of the fact that Garak is forced to torture a man he considers a friend and all Odo can do is spit venom back at him because he has no power to do anything else because he's literally falling apart at the seams. This is straight up magic if we ever saw it. It's something you don't see often, and don't see on Star Trek at all anymore.
@@pittland44 watching and reading comments like these that analyse DS9 scenes always amazes me by reminding my how purely amazing DS9 was. The writing and acting were the best of the best, and the camerawork and music score just add to it!
They're kindred spirits, when he tortured Odo it's like he's torturing himself they both want to go back home but never can (well not yet) and the guilt drives him crazy, enough that he changes his mind. In a way, Odo saved Garak.
It hurts to see both of them in pain. One physically and the other mentally and emotionally. They truly are so much more alike each other than they realize.
Garak tortures Odo physically, but it mentally tortures himself, that and Odo's words cut into him.
@@meris8486 On certain level he did enjoy being an Order operative again
@@GenjiShimada.
Oh absolutely, I think he especially enjoyed his fathers respect.
Garak home is destroyed
At the end of the day, they each find solace in the fact that they are to exceptionally strong and prideful men, who at the most base core, just want to go home and be accepted by their people.
The real torture was the friends you made along the way.
This scene is a testament to how fantastic both Rene Auberjonois and Andrew Robinson are. Odo and Garek are two of the main reasons DS9 is the best Star Trek show.
This episode had confirmed my head Canon that Garak, while capable of very dark things, he has his hard limits. In fact, i always believed that Tain had him exiled because he actually ordered Garak to do something so vile, that when he just couldn't do it, he mercilessly had his own son exiled. He didn't even show him the "mercy" of a swift execution, but lifelong exile in a stronghold of his people's hated enemies. Tain is 10 times more evil than Gul Dukat ever could be.
100% agree. Tain is the worst Cardassian
Also Tain's hubris is what got him killed in the end. He was so full of himself that he thought they could just waltz into the Gamma quadrant and kill the founders. He was more vile than Dukat, yes, but Dukat knew when to hold back.
The real reason Garak was exiled was because Dukat exiled him there himself. Garak assasinated Dukat's father who was a rival of Tain's.
Me too ,but I worry he had to spend time in exile away from his people hem trousers in the shop without much hope of going home. So that he learnt a slow resentment for Federation policy that is bogged down with morality.
He needed this to be the man he is. God forbid he was giving unfetted access to Cardassian power. He would of found someone else to absolve his guilt in time. But this way
He hustled it the hard way. I would always love to see a arc for him somewhere.
And hopefully he has reinstated the order and got Cardiassians back under a Cardassian foot.
He needed to say no and be shown the other side so that he would Remember his culture and restore order.
2:47 “I can quit Mike Johnson’s DS9 clips cold turkey, no problem!”
2:49 reality
Bobaklives this fact is based on true stories lol!!
Garak: "How many lights do you see Odo?"
Define light.
THERE. ARE. FOUR. LIGHTS.
Of course, he then goes over, turns it off and Odo pours into his bucket.
They also said that the two actors wanted that close-up to be done to add to the effect of the exchange. The actors on DS9 had a say in the flow of the show, which is what made it so awesome!
Came searching for this scene after hearing about Rene's death. This was one of his best scenes imo
RIP
Same, he will be missed, so much!
Beautiful scene, but I hate that this video cuts off right before two great moments. One where Garak sits in silence as he lets Odo return back to liquid state, guiltstruck at how he's torn a man to pieces physically and emotionally just to find he is an exile desperate to go home like him. The other where Garak returns to the bridge to speak to Embran Tain, and returns to his confident persona to say that he got nothing out of Odo, knowing that even if the information was of any use to the Obsidian Order, he could never speak it. Absolutely one of my favorite episodes
I was just thinking when he goes to turn off the machine that while Odo broke so did Garak.
The whole episode is sublime, both parts, but the ending really gets me.
They've both come to understand one another a bit better, Garak's apology to Odo on the runabout when he thinks they're going to die, Odo acknowledging he understands what it's like to be an exile and want nothing more than to go home.
And later in the ruins of Garak's shop, the way the two speak. Garak still feels guilty for hurti g Odo but Odo doesn't think at all about the moment, he's put it behind him.
ua-cam.com/video/cReoClR_Z5g/v-deo.htmlsi=gDC8oosAvlxihBDK
Mike has the next part up as well!
It's astounding they got away with this, the dudes' skin is falling off
What a great scene
Pretty brutal by Star Trek standards.
This isn't that "Woke" Discovery crap. This is REAL Trek.
@@jaybee2402You do realize that Star Trek itself is the most Woke TV series of all time right?
@@bobpage6597they literally do this for the female founder who was infected with a virus
Seriously, I'm not squeamish but genuinely felt a bit sick when I watched this, so instantly rewound it and watched it again obviously...
I have the original DVD collections for all seven season of DS9, and in the bonus content for this episode, the director said he staged and shot theses scenes with Garak and Odo with the same degree of "intimacy" (ie, the closeness) that you would normally expect to see from a 'romantic' scene between two characters, and it shows!
Odo and Garak are remarkably alike. They both deeply desire to go home. The key difference is that Garak can't go home because he has been cast out, while Odo would be welcomed, but can't bring himself to betray his own sense of justice. Perhaps that's what ultimately touches Garak: The realization of how petty his willingness to do anything to go home is compared to Odo's steadfastness.
2:00 This is the exact moment in which Odo is gripped with fear, like everybody else who is going to be tortured. He thought himself immune and for good reason, but now that his power is stripped from him, he realises that there is a pain that can be inflicted upon him that he simply cannot bear. As a consequence, his first act is to bargain - saying that it is pointless and that he knows nothing.
Yes, very well-crafted!
An excellent scene that remembers that Garak lies to everyone, always... but that very much includes to himself.
Nice observation.
"why didnt they use this during the war?" Well, for one thing it only seems to work on the timetable of changelings needing to assume liquid form. So, unless you plant these in every crew barracks and officers' room, *without telling them*, that's not gonna do much. Secondly, as we see, it's literal torture. If Sisko's arc demonstrates anything it's that Star Fleet is very much teetering on the edge of becoming something they don't want to be and are mostly trying not to be
It also assumes the Founders have no actual counter for it or that Starfleet knows the exact plans. After all, the device comes from the Obsidian Order which gets essentially wiped out in this episode, the Dominion captures Tain and possibly other survivors who could tell them how it works, and they have high end technology which could potentially be put to use unlike Odo who was captured on his lonesome and without any support.
One of the darkest scenes in the show.
Which is saying something since DS9 is one of if not The darkest Star Trek show
Lord this show worked on so many levels. Watching both men losing their composure. It was so masterfully done. In the end Garak couldn't do it. He couldn't go on torturing someone that he held respect for. The simple line of "Lie, if you have to..." tells you so much about where Garak is, in that moment. DS9 is easily the best of the post TOS shows.
GARAK: Yes, it must be very disconcerting for you to be locked into a humanoid form. Especially now.
Odo walks over to the device, picks it up and smashes it to bits on the ground.
ODO: Not really.
Good point! I‘m sure even without altering his biomolecular structure Odo is stronger than Garak. Garak couldn’t possibly stop Odo from disabling the device.
I thought that too lol!! The only plot reason I can think of is that Odo didn’t think he could incapacitate Garak & the device without the commotion alerting the armed guards outside the room.
That move gets Odo killed. He has no escape route
Garak is actually a very good fighter. Worf even complimented him, "You fight well, for a tailor."
You'd be a fool to assume Garak is unarmed, ever.
I actually feel more sorry for Garak here. I mean, Odo is the one in physical pain. But the expression of regret that Garak has is worse
it doesn't hurt that Odo isn't great at expressing emotion through all that makeup (even when he isn't shown deteriorating) but Garak ALWAYS shows his expressions clearly
This is the first moment that Garak realized he would never go home to the Cardassia he knew. First he changed into a man who didnt fit into society. Then by the time he actually come home the Cardassia he knew is no longer there.
1:27 me attempting to use the force to grab the remote from the coffee table...
LMAO
Lmfao
3:49 This always got me - there's no reason for him to explain that to odo, he's really trying to convince himself
I can see and hear a little bit of the Scorpio Killer surface in Garak's voice and face just before he starts the interrogation - even after all these years, Andrew Robinson's still got it. :)
RIP to Rene.
It's ironic how similar both of them are. Both want to return home, above all else. In the end, they both do...only for it to be the most painful, heartbreaking moment of their lives.
This is a well done scene, but it brings up some questions. One is why changelings are not treated as the deadly melee threats they are. The guards weren't even looking at Odo before the device was turned on, and other changelings are similarly allowed to get close to people. The other is why there isn't a force field around the projector. Odo could just walk over and smash it.
Also, why don't they project fields like this throughout critical areas of ships and stations? You could have checkpoints where you check to see if people are changelings while keeping them from attacking or fleeing.
They probably knew what sort of person Odo was, that he wouldn't attack them without reason. As for him smashing the device, without his shape shifting abilities Odo is probably only as strong as a regular humanoid and Garak would have stopped him, he also could have called the guards. It also wouldn't have done him any good as the room still has a forcefield around it. Regarding having those devices at checkpoints or vital areas, that's a good idea. But i'm sure it would be talked away due to some techno reason. Like the field will damage vital systems if left on for too long, or it will be harmful to solids over extended periods of time...
Yeah, it's a screw up. In Enterprise, they make a point to explicily say the Suliban were extremelly dangerous, changelings are infinite worse and no one seems to Care.
This was the very first time I ever saw Odo dirty, rotten and peeling.
*Knocks over the device with human shaped hands*
*kill*
"Stupid tailor."
Rene' and Andrew are just fantastic actors in these! Bravo!🖖
The look of Odo deteriorating was truly horrifying
This might be my favorite scene in the entire series, the struggle of moral ambiguity of the two: Garak between the Cardassians and his old friends, and Odo between the Federation and his people.
3:57 that’s why I loved Garak.
The reason he was on the station in the first place was never uncovered…it’s fairly obvious it’s because he had a moral dilemma and decided to do the right thing regardless of the outcome though.
I like how Odo shows terror and vulnerability when his loses his confidence and tries to talk Garak out of going thru with the torture after he realizes he can't change his form. So much more believable than just being the tough guy who stands up to it and endures the torture stoically. Odo breaks as we all would eventually...
So no changeling has ever harmed another until Odo, correct? Except for the one here who allowed Odo to be harmed. He was not killed, but that is not what the founders said, they said harmed. And Odo was harmed
Garak did the harming here, not Lovok, but I do see the point.
@@sephservant that's why I said allowed Odo to be harmed.
Pretty sure I heard a audio log in a Star Trek Online mission to the contrary.
I think this is the first time I have seen garak lose his composure over this.
So....it's kinda like dropping salt on a slug?
Wow!
This was a rough moment!
And Garak did it only to impress Tain!😢
Garak (Andrew Robinson) masters the art of speech. Only his intonation excels his words. In all the decades I never tire listening and watching these DS 9 videos of him.
He'll always be scorpio.
Garak REALLY doesn't want to do this.
I never understood why Odo didn't just walk over to that device and tip it over off the table.
If he did it, Romulans would kill him. They agreed for Garak to torture him to extract information, otherwise they would have no use for both of them.
Also, Odo is not totally innocent victim. He was Chief of Security under Cardassian occupation and he was taking part in torturing and executing prisoners. I think both of them are breaking down in this episode: they were both ruthless interrogators and torturers, yet in this scene it shows they both show emotions and they hate what they are doing.
You might as well ask why didn't Odo escape before they even put him in a room with that device... the answer is obvious... he wouldn't get far, they would kill him before word would get out what was happening there
Garak was more than a match for Odo as long as he's a solid, he would have stopped Odo more than likely...and besides, a device like that may have been coded for Garak only.
"But before you go for a swim, I have a few questions that need answe---" Odo ignores him, and turns into liquid in his bucket before anyone can react. "Well.....crap."
I don't want to detract in any way from the remarkable acting and dialogue, but I will say Odo's make up in this scene completes it. The way it conveys how it he is literally falling apart is gruesome and sinister, without overshadowing the other elements of the scene.
Garak: It must be very disconcerting for you to be locked into a humanoid form.
Odo:
Garak: ...Damn.
Odo you didn't! 💢💥
Why is the acting on this show SO DAMN GOOD! My word.
I felt this device should have been used more in the series- would have come in handing during the dominion war
How come the Federation never built any of those changeling machines?
Probably some one bitching it would be unethical
The Federation eventually made a chemical that does the same thing.
@@Idazmi7
A virus*
@@ThatZenoGuy
I stand corrected.
Because plot. Literally. Look up the device on the Memory Alpha wiki and one of DS9's dev team literally says something to that extent.
"Lie to me if you have to", my father once told me that people being tortured long enough will say just anything to make it end, meaning Odo doesn't care if he's fed a lie; he wants it over as much as his prisoner does.
Some people say when there is torture two are actually tortured. Both the torturer and the tortured. Certainly if they have a conscience. But it does affect both forever. It seems Garak was more tortured than Odo on this one
If Garak were a true torture master then wouldn't he keep Odo at the brink oscillating between pain and minor relief?
Damn, that's some dark stuff.
the scene is exploring a dark aspect of human nature.@@Pumpkin525
I'm kinda surprised that Odo never tried to destroy the device. I don't know if he COULD have, it's just weird that he didn't even try to knock it over, press buttons to mess it up, whatever.
People say Garak tortured Odo
But Odo tortured Garak right back
Let me get this straight. There is a device that freezes changelings and they never used it in the war.
Well it was a prototype so it may have been the only one and it got dystroyed along with the rest of the fleet
Yeah it's a bit of a plot hole, but keep in mind that it only blocks shapeshifting, it doesn't reveal them. So a disguised changeling wouldn't care about being near this device as long as they can continue carrying out their mission. Also if the area of effect is small (only this small room), you'd need them all over a ship to be effective, and perhaps there's reasons why that just wouldn't work. Also, maybe a more powerful Founder can shapeshift anyways, we've seen that Odo is somewhat weak and inexperienced compared to others of his kind.
@augustday9483 all good points. I'll add that the Obsidian order and Tal Shiar probably kept the device to themselves and the prototype was lost in the destruction of their fleet.
@@augustday9483 yeah but think of later episodes where they test people for changeling dna and every single time they get caught they immediately shapeshift and escape. It's one of the dumber recurrences on the show.
Please don’t ever leave me in a room with Andy R I would not be able to stop screaming in fear…
I always smile and laugh when I see this first scene, when Odo realizes Garak is going to torture him. LOL 🙂
A frick'n great scene for these guys. One for the books.
Garak broke before Odo did.
it would be so funny if odo just walks up and smacks him, then just turns off the machine
What works here best is that it shows how much they actually appreciate each other, neither wants to do what they're doing, and both of them have a lot more in common than they ever realized.
Both of them want to go home, but Garak can't because the home he remembers no longer exists, and Odo can't because of how different he really is. If you take the game as canon, he goes on to start a new link with changelings who have come to see things from his point of view.
Garak really does not like to do this.
Well, someone did break in the end. But it wasn't Odo.
why odo just dont smashed the device? omg 😁 or it had a force field around? 🤔
Why didn't Odo, even in his human form only, just smash that fragile device so casually left on the table easily within his reach with only Garak there to defend it at short notice?
Garak would have called the guards. OTOH, Odo knew rather well, that if Garak didn't interrogate Odo, Tain would no longer have any use for Garak.
The tragedy was in having to let the game play out to the most inhumane effect. (On a ship where no-one was human anyway.)
@@mardus_ee Also, if Odo kill Garak, Romulans would kill him as well.
The Romulans were outside, and now Odo is locked in one form, they have the ability to restrain him... he's still screwed either way
+Sargon 01 | The Romulans could not have killed Odo, because Lovok would have prevented this.
If Odo's clothes flake doesn't that mean he walks naked all the time inside DS9 ?? 👀
He creates the clothing. Think Mystique in the X-men films.
@@JnEricsonx but there aren't really clothes, clothes made from fabric like wool cotton or perlan, but extensions of his body.
You ended right before the best part, where Garak rushes to turn off the machine, Odo returns to his liquad state to rest and heal and Garak puts his head down in disgust of what he has done
Star Trek naturally has been a mixed bag over the years, but when Star Trek was good, it was very, very good.
Would have loved it had Odo just walked over and destroyed that device...the look on Garaks face..lol .."Well then, he got me there!"
ODO! TALK TO ME!!
That said, Garak told him to be creative before starting. He wanted him to lie...
Odo should've just attacked them before they could set up the device.
That's exactly what a benzo withdrawal is like, for months (for some poor souls years)
It would be nice to have this tech when the changeling who posed as Gowron infiltrated DS9. Using blood as a shapeshifter test was weak security.
Odo morphs into Darkman.
Odo looks like Beetle Juice
Gives Jason Voorhees a run for his money
Odo handles this extremely well but he knew the reality Garik was working with he is a security professional, both of their lives were at stake in truth and this was not lost on him.
4:15 oh! The dichotomy!!!! This is fantastic story telling! One at the precipice of returning home from exile, and another longing to return home from self choice(?) Garak and Odo are in the same position, of sorts.
Altho! This could be a ruse by the super confident Odo. To tug at heart strings of Garak! Whom he's surely discerned is attempting to return to his father.
Would have been interesting if someone had attempted to use this device on the Female Changeling.
I always wondered why Odo didn't just destroy the gadget that was keeping him from shapeshifting. I guess that would have made too much sense.
Odo could just knock over the thingie then choke garek out
This was the first scene I ever saw of DS9
Fallout New Vegas when you kill Mr. House.
After listening to the audiobook "A Stitch in Time" these makes much more sense. Garak is a patient man. He doesn't been brute force, or drugs. Just time...
Why didnt they use this field during the Dominion War?
Odo should have just sledgehammered the device while they were setting it up. He had plenty of time. His hubris made him complacent.
Such a pity the Obsidian Order kept that device such a closely guarded secret. They could have replicated them en masse then put them all over the place. Founders wouldn't be able to infiltrate anymore. It would essentially take away their greatest power.
i mean Odo could have just knocked the device off the table. They just put it together in front of him so if it comes apart, he can then go tentacle monster on Garrak and the guards.
I know how serious it is and how freaked out Odo must be not being able to change shape, but I can't help but laugh at how ridiculous it looks when he throws his hand at the camera and grunts.
This episode was the final time I had even a splash of compassion, care or concern for Garak. Watching his torture of Odo shows me the inhumanity I shall never be able to forgive.Ever.
Inhumanity? He's not a human
Beetlejuice origin story.
What makes it more terrifying is that I've heard words like Garak uses to justify his disgusting action coming out of the mouths of military officers and LEOs. We are used to think of them as our protectors but I would recommend staying ready for when they, if ever, choose to switch their role
Indeed. Today's loyalty is no guarantee against tomorrow's rebellion.
Boy.... sure would have been nice to have more of that device around, wouldn't it?
I'm so happy Odo ended up returning to the Great Link in the end
I can never tell which of them broke first.
Personally, I think it was garrak since he was the first to drop the act of a torturer and showed real concern.
@@christophermarkee5445 That's how I saw it, too. Every time he speaks to Odo while the latter is in clear pain from being unable to change shape just becomes more desperate until he (Garak) pleads with Odo to tell him his secret. Garak broke first.