1971 Ultra-Rare Chevy Small Block 4-Cam, 4-Valve Beast

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  • Опубліковано 17 січ 2025

КОМЕНТАРІ • 128

  • @springford9511
    @springford9511 Місяць тому +2

    Thanks for the video. Never heard of this engine, very interesting.
    You have a typo, "the Moer" (Moser) in the summary text. I don't ever mention little typos but this one might prevent someone who was searching from finding this video, so I made myself an exception. Thanks.

  • @Dave_9547
    @Dave_9547 Місяць тому +1

    There was a guy in the Sacramento, CA are who built a big block ford that had heads more or less like this. He was trying to run it as a top fuel motor as I recall. I heard it fire up at the track a time or two, but never heard it actually try to make a run. This was back in the late seventies. Wish I had taken a few pictures of it.

    • @GregQuirin
      @GregQuirin  Місяць тому

      @@Dave_9547 that’s cool! Lots of unique stuff out there.

  • @ElJeFe556
    @ElJeFe556 3 місяці тому +54

    Can we stop for just a sec and appreciate that this was made in 1970... Milling billet parts today is like brushing your teeth, it's everywhere, but in 1970!?! This is WILD

    • @toomanyhobbies2011
      @toomanyhobbies2011 3 місяці тому +7

      No big deal. How do you think cams were made back then? The only real addition to milling is digital computer control (CNC) with easily changed programs. Had to know what you were doing back then, now it's mostly trial and error.

    • @rideshareog
      @rideshareog 3 місяці тому +5

      True speak. Machining, welding, engineering is back of hand now.

    • @johnjay5143
      @johnjay5143 2 місяці тому +2

      @@toomanyhobbies2011 lol You're silly . A LOT of work was involved back then . Where do you think your ideas came from ? And what you have nowadays ... Geniuses like Smokey Yunick and a slew of other geniuses .
      I'm from that time and there was no CNC to carbon copy anything, it took some serious innovation . Most things are piggy back to what those MEN began .

    • @Wolfcamp555
      @Wolfcamp555 Місяць тому +1

      They had NC machines back then.

  • @johnfry9010
    @johnfry9010 3 місяці тому +27

    WOW , I remember seeing pictures of these engines but never expected I would ever see one tore down and being rebuilt like your video , AWESOME !

    • @johnjay5143
      @johnjay5143 2 місяці тому

      Me too . I never got to see one torn down . I remember there was talk about it having staggered cam timing on the intakes, hence the single port for the intakes . One valve would induce the flow early and the secondary would pick up from there, essentially the duration was partially controlled between the events . That engine was a big influence to what we have today .

  • @odl21
    @odl21 3 місяці тому +18

    Nice. I love that we can just make stuff like this from scratch with CNC mills these days

    • @aidenstefanson2175
      @aidenstefanson2175 3 місяці тому +8

      It gives me so much more respect for the mad scientist who pulled this off in 1970

    • @thomaskimparker809
      @thomaskimparker809 Місяць тому

      Yea.
      Today it's everywhere.. but in 1970 .. WASNT A CNC IT WAS AN HMC..HUMAN NUMERIC CONTROL😂.. IT WAS MILLED N DRILLED BY HAND MORE OR LESS.. NO COMPUTER DID THAT.. IT WAS MAN MADE

  • @LimestoneCoastCustoms
    @LimestoneCoastCustoms 3 місяці тому +14

    Love it!! Thanks Greg, just more awesomeness to drool over! 👍

  • @rjung_ch
    @rjung_ch 3 місяці тому +7

    Thanks Greg for yet another one from the shop with Kevin and Pete!
    Cheers guys 👍💪✌

  • @carl5536
    @carl5536 2 місяці тому +2

    I didn't know anything about this engine in 1971..I's 12yrs old when it was built and maybe that's why I never heard of it until now

    • @GregQuirin
      @GregQuirin  2 місяці тому

      Google it there is more info out there on this unique engine

  • @briantracy1324
    @briantracy1324 3 місяці тому +7

    I'd love to see the OHC 4 valve chevy 350 that Honda built for Chevy in 1973 when Chevy was complaining that they could NEVER meet 1975 emission and fuel economy standards. Honda gave them a full size Impala that got 50% better fuel economy AND power with excellent driveability.

  • @Mark-um7ey
    @Mark-um7ey 3 місяці тому +11

    Oh shit!! Can't wait to hear that fire up!

  • @ThePenn7
    @ThePenn7 3 місяці тому +5

    I remember buying that issue of Hot Rod. Kept it a long time, but somewhere over the years it got chunked.

  • @tylerolson5860
    @tylerolson5860 3 місяці тому +15

    Whoa let me see it on a dyno!!

  • @lutach
    @lutach 3 місяці тому +6

    Another great video, thank you once again.

  • @joe-hp4nk
    @joe-hp4nk 3 місяці тому +11

    Looks like a real money pit.

  • @PatrickD-ql6jg
    @PatrickD-ql6jg 3 місяці тому +1

    Old school cast iron, with gigantic double over head cam Heads. Love it.

  • @The-Average-Guy.
    @The-Average-Guy. 3 місяці тому +2

    Thanks for documenting these mate, can’t wait to hear it on the dyno

  • @tscustomstation
    @tscustomstation 3 місяці тому +1

    I want to see more of this engine👍

  • @patstevens2959
    @patstevens2959 2 місяці тому +1

    Love this channel

  • @JosephCowen-fz8vj
    @JosephCowen-fz8vj 3 місяці тому +12

    Sir Jack Brabam the Australian Forumla 1 Champion won the F1 Championship in the Brabam car built by him and Australian Engineering Company REPCO ( still around today) , they used a Oldsmobile Alloy 215 ci ( Buick Small Block) and heads quite simular to these in the early 1960s , they used the Oldsmobile version of the Buick as the olds had 5 head bolts per cylinder and cross bolted mains . The rest of the motor was a billet steel crank machined by Repco in Australia, billet rods, forged pistons , it was also 4 valve OHC engine , as stated they won the F1 championship against Ferrari, Lotus , Ford and all the rest with a originally a pushrod alloy GM motor . Probably the only GM V8 production pushrod car motor ever to do so..

    • @GregQuirin
      @GregQuirin  3 місяці тому +4

      That’s awesome! Thanks for sharing

    • @PiDsPagePrototypes
      @PiDsPagePrototypes 3 місяці тому +4

      ​@GregQuirin Story's not quite accurate. The Buick production engine made it's way to Rover, and Leyland, and people thought that was the same as the Olds version, and story had it be the basis of the Repco-Brabham engine, but it's not. The basis of the Formula1 motor is Olds V8 Indy Race Engine program, not the Production engine. The race and production programs ran in parallel, and are very similar.

    • @JosephCowen-fz8vj
      @JosephCowen-fz8vj 3 місяці тому

      @@PiDsPagePrototypes you are so far from correct you are stupid , it had nothing to do with Indy , nothing to do with any of that , the complete story is Australia's history , not some crap you heard , you want the correct story , Brabam Australia used the Oldsmobile version of the 215 ci Buick V8 , not some Indy crap , there are books written on this , Repco Australia built the heads , not Indy , it's a stock Oldsmobile version of the 215 ci , Australia did the heads , they even bolt to the original block, Rover was later , nothing to do with a mid 1960s FI motor , Sir Jack Brabam and the whole process is taught in schools in Australia, rite down to Repco building the motors and heads , so get a grip on reality, learn a few things , look up the official pictures of an Oldsmobile 215 being run , and go back to your mum's Kia

    • @JosephCowen-fz8vj
      @JosephCowen-fz8vj 3 місяці тому +2

      @@PiDsPagePrototypes Repco ordered 20 Oldsmobile versions of the 215 Buick , because of the extra head bolts , and cross bolted mains , there is a whole movie and history on it ,

    • @JosephCowen-fz8vj
      @JosephCowen-fz8vj 3 місяці тому

      @@PiDsPagePrototypes fake news ! Get ya facts rite

  • @gruberstein
    @gruberstein Місяць тому

    I remember seeing that Hot ROd issue on the newstand rack when I was a 15 yo punk kid, maybe I even bought it because of that cover.

  • @AllSpeed
    @AllSpeed 3 місяці тому +4

    thanks for the video, i love this stuff. Id love to see a modern chevy 4.8L truck motor with Honda K24 heads. no idea if it would work, but these guys could figure it out.

    • @Tunerfreak99
      @Tunerfreak99 3 місяці тому +1

      Unfortunately the bore spacing is 10mm off, too far to make that work

    • @texsaiyan2821
      @texsaiyan2821 3 місяці тому +1

      Look into neutron engines k48.

  • @shanegamble3746
    @shanegamble3746 3 місяці тому +6

    I have a Moser catalog featuring these heads.

  • @timmywazzup
    @timmywazzup 3 місяці тому +2

    So cool, would love to build one

  • @hydrocarbon82
    @hydrocarbon82 2 місяці тому

    It always made me wonder why the OHC V8's we say from the 60s/70s used one giant belt or chain. Double the stress, double the stretch. The Fords actually run a few extra degrees on the pass cam due to the massive stretch from the 7ft long jumprope chain.

  • @jamest.5001
    @jamest.5001 3 місяці тому +2

    I'd like to build something like this some day . Maybe a BBC version with a 3.76" stroke with a 4.5" bore, maybe larger if possible. It should take care of issues with the BBC heads. 478cid DOHC BBC, 32valve should be plenty for the streets. Especially if the cams can be setup for vvt! And a VTEC system would be awesome, I have played with the idea of modified Honda j series V6 heads cast for V8, to fit either LS or SBC, with VTEC and variable cam timing. Have basically two cams on each shaft. One with .500" lift , and about 220° dur. @.050" and the other with about
    .596" and 260° @.050" with both cams having independent variable timing. Maybe use a BBC oil pump and modify the lifter bore oil supply to operate as piston oil squirters! Use a plug,threaded to allow a squirter to be bolted in. With a long bolt and safety wired on the top side. Maybe a high volume pump can supply the oil requirements. Enough for the vvt, VTEC, and squirters. I'd want to cast and mill a completely new front for the engine block
    To bolt on, with a new timing cover, and a bottom end girdle, to then require a custom oil pan. The girdle bolting to the pan rail, and the main caps. With the front engine cover bolting to the heads, and a timing cover bolting to it, and valve covers bolts to the head and front cover. The front cover possibly allow use of a different style water pump
    Maybe a LT water pump can be used or LS, maybe a old 250 I6 water pump, using custom pulleys. Possibly use a micro controller programmed to read the manifold pressure ( map sensor) throttle position, and engine RPM. To determine when the VTEC kicks in, and where the cams event timing is advanced or retarded. Basically when under load at low rpm, set things up to produce tq. It may also need to know what gear the transmission is in. EITHER way if the rpm is climbing decently fast, at full throttle. The VTEC can change the cam to a 3500-8500 rpm cam profile above 4200-4500 rpm, or a manual control activated when idling around. To get a radical rough idle. And extremely low tq! At idle but with 10.5:1 it should sound great . Maybe the Honda followers can be used ina head cast for a Chevy engine, using possibly larger valves. While still using the stock style intake manifold. At most using adapters.
    Possibly the exhaust flange pattern being the same as well. At most using an adapter to use a common flange pattern. Maybe a SBC going to a LS pattern . It could possibly use k series exhaust with adapter to LS or at most a custom flange with ports that can align with either LS , BBC, or SBC, so existing headers can be modified to fit. Maybe a SBC engine using an adapter to allow a narrower BBC intake manifold. (With larger ports) it will be longer, however with the custom front cover, the engine will be longer also. Maybe the BBC intake is the way to go. And epoxy the floor of the manifold to get the ports slightly smaller. A 383 with BBC intake and a 750 Holley carb. 32valves , it should make about all someone could expect from a engine from idle to 4000 rpm, then the cam change, (VTEC) and have the top end from 4000-8500 natural inspired power should be 2.25-2.5 HP/CID and the boosted power at one bar should double the output. At least 80% more, if the valves aren't too small. It should breath like an athlete in a hyperbaric chamber! With the ports raised in comparison to 23° heads. The intake runners at nearly a 45° angle to the valve stem. Intake and exhaust. Maybe get 383 with a 4.125" bore and 3.580" stroke, offset grind a crank to use a small journal rod or the Honda rods. Something already done. Or weld and grind a steel crank. Get a as cast crank in machined and mill in the stroke . Using 6" or , 6.200" rods. Maybe 400 pistons with the block decked , or custom pistons. Un-common strokes cost $$$. Maybe name it uncommon in a language other than English, 😆, put that much time and $$$, into something you gotta at least name it , possibly getting two 1.84" intakes and two 1.5" exhaust valves. It should flow near 400 cfm at 1" lift, maybe incorporate a slide valve in the head to get better low end tq. To close one valve and induce swirling in the cylinders! Maybe even have the intake valves opening at slightly different times having one open when the other is at .020" - .030" lift. To get the swirl started. And keep the quench pads large as possible . With the compressed air fuel in a small as possible and close to a sphere as possible. The pistons if domes, have a small hemisphere in the center carved out under the sparkplug. Keeping compression 10:1 or greater. 9.5:1 with boost. Unless it's over 3 bar. Possibly 11:1 on 93 octane, with water ethanol injection.

  • @timothybayliss6680
    @timothybayliss6680 3 місяці тому +3

    There was the Ford 255 indy engine in '63 as well

  • @hugieflhr03
    @hugieflhr03 3 місяці тому +2

    I bet those heads would help a big inch stroker sbc. The chamber looks like the Oldsmobile 32 valve 455

  • @Sleeperdude
    @Sleeperdude 3 місяці тому +1

    Very cool

  • @dougjenks6954
    @dougjenks6954 3 місяці тому

    Nice set up

  • @garthwillard8089
    @garthwillard8089 3 місяці тому +2

    A Spokane racing group brought down a SBC to test in California for an Indy Car project that Tom Sneva raced in a different season. The Chevy produced more horsepower than the aufen hauser motor that was on a mid night express to race in 48 hours at Indy. The days of only one Dyno in existence on the west coast

  • @codycash9338
    @codycash9338 3 місяці тому

    Are you going to give us a video of it? Running down the road? That would be awesome. I wish I could’ve grown up back in those days when everything was so experimental and you could make a name for yourself

  • @matiasdamian8106
    @matiasdamian8106 3 місяці тому +2

    I would Love to see and hear this d.o.h.c small block running man

  • @robostyle9773
    @robostyle9773 3 місяці тому

    Great video thank you!

  • @lancelanphier9509
    @lancelanphier9509 3 місяці тому +2

    How cool! What was the horsepower rating of these when these came out in 1971, and what kind of RPMs did it turn ??

  • @ChrisMcCutcheon-wj2pp
    @ChrisMcCutcheon-wj2pp 3 місяці тому +3

    Smokey done 3 hemi headed 302 ci, all three I belive were in 69 Z28 camaros, only one I have ever saw was Reggie Jackson's, they were hemi headed or overhead cam or both, I would like to see a doctrine on these cars

  • @hellreavernz1739
    @hellreavernz1739 3 місяці тому +1

    so awesome

  • @stevewelborn8744
    @stevewelborn8744 3 місяці тому

    Thank you

  • @dougbawden4321
    @dougbawden4321 2 місяці тому

    All it needs is a flat plane crank 😎

  • @henrycarlson7514
    @henrycarlson7514 3 місяці тому

    Interesting, Thank you

  • @RoyDees-t2k
    @RoyDees-t2k 3 місяці тому

    Do you have a video of the engine fully assembled and running?

    • @GregQuirin
      @GregQuirin  3 місяці тому +1

      Yes - here it is ua-cam.com/video/_p-7ynW8Cx0/v-deo.html

  • @AaronJohnson-kx7nn
    @AaronJohnson-kx7nn 3 місяці тому

    This would be cool for a company to re engineer aftermarket for exotic performance sale...with today's tech

  • @peters8758
    @peters8758 3 місяці тому

    Did he describe it as
    “belt in oil” at 3:36 ?

  • @timryan7509
    @timryan7509 Місяць тому

    Didn't BARNES use to make exotic heads a long time ago, duel overhead or something like that ?

  • @mchristr
    @mchristr 3 місяці тому

    Is there any footage (video or photos) of the pistons? Were these heads flowed? Would love to hear it run.

    • @GregQuirin
      @GregQuirin  3 місяці тому

      @@mchristr ua-cam.com/video/_p-7ynW8Cx0/v-deo.htmlsi=VrEMt82yFj3VYkFG

  • @davidaarons2488
    @davidaarons2488 3 місяці тому +1

    Is this engine with the overhead cams now a interference engine ? Thanks

  • @ricktroxell6448
    @ricktroxell6448 3 місяці тому

    Heck ya man I'm pickin up what your layin down that's a cool motor we could only dream of them after only heren have you herd about the new 4 valve heads for a 350 and everyone's like that's b.s. why would they put more valves in and not just make the ones in it bigger we were uninformed back 20 or so years ago

  • @VGHCX
    @VGHCX 3 місяці тому +6

    Smokey Yunick called this engine "A stinking pile of $#!t." In his memoirs.

    • @codymoe4986
      @codymoe4986 Місяць тому +1

      Isn't that the dude that had to cheat constantly to win?

    • @VGHCX
      @VGHCX Місяць тому

      @codymoe4986 YES, you are correct. He stated. "I never cheated. I just interpreted the rules differently than my competitors did."

  • @Paulman50
    @Paulman50 3 місяці тому +2

    👍😃

  • @JT-dj9hc
    @JT-dj9hc 3 місяці тому

    Was hoping for specs. Horsepower, torque, rpm and head flow numbers

  • @JoelGlaze-z4e
    @JoelGlaze-z4e 3 місяці тому

    Someone should make a kit version of this people would jump on it

    • @mikes.1882
      @mikes.1882 3 місяці тому

      You'd think lt5 owners would want kits too... " daddy, what's an lt5?"

  • @kennethbrown5784
    @kennethbrown5784 3 місяці тому +1

    Awesome to bad it never made it into mass production

  • @nickjudd5188
    @nickjudd5188 3 місяці тому

    Oil Passageway? Gallery 👀

  • @bluedog373
    @bluedog373 3 місяці тому

    Originally developed by Harvey Crane and Pat Santello and Richard Moser

  • @AaronJohnson-kx7nn
    @AaronJohnson-kx7nn 3 місяці тому

    The aftermarket performance are just always trying for monster cubes nothing like this...would be wicked for certain builds

  • @looneylonzo28
    @looneylonzo28 3 місяці тому

    i’m pretty sure Chevy did another Four cammer wasn’t it late 80s early 90s like a C4 Corvette not saying it was better just seems like I remember one.

    • @erikj.2066
      @erikj.2066 3 місяці тому

      It was the LT5 in the ZR1 Corvette. It wasn’t GM that produced that engine though. It was a contract build where Lotus and GM designed it, and Mercury Marine manufactured it, and assembled it.

  • @PiDsPagePrototypes
    @PiDsPagePrototypes 3 місяці тому

    Has anyone made similar heads for the Big Block architecture?

    • @GregQuirin
      @GregQuirin  3 місяці тому +1

      Pete and Kevin are currently building a 430 CID BB - OHC 4 valves per cylinder

    • @PiDsPagePrototypes
      @PiDsPagePrototypes 3 місяці тому

      @@GregQuirin For the Corvette?

  • @joshjones3408
    @joshjones3408 2 місяці тому

    Mr.greg ......you said something about these two guys..I wish I would have Heard when i was younger......you said these two where self thought engineer's....I know these sounds dumb.....but you don't have to have some big college education to do amazing things in the world of mechanics

  • @thomaskimparker809
    @thomaskimparker809 Місяць тому

    I bet adjusting the vavles on that beast will make you go bald..😂😂😂.. 32 underbucket shims...😮.. this thing is soooo awesome..

  • @76629online
    @76629online 3 місяці тому

    This is interesting...BUT, you can't build a better mousetrap. ;-)

  • @XtremiTeez
    @XtremiTeez 3 місяці тому

    It's not a 4-valve, it's a 32-valve.

  • @charlesangell_bulmtl
    @charlesangell_bulmtl 3 місяці тому +1

    Probably not it🤔, but my Dad used to speak of a Chevy 'porcupine head' ???

    • @GregQuirin
      @GregQuirin  3 місяці тому

      @@charlesangell_bulmtl who knows it was probably this thing it looks like a porcupine when the cam boxes are off. It’s kind of confusing. It looks like they are cylinder head studs, but they’re actually the cam box studs

    • @maker-matt
      @maker-matt 3 місяці тому +1

      The porcupine head was the slang term for the big block canted valve head.

    • @GregQuirin
      @GregQuirin  3 місяці тому +1

      @@maker-matt that’s good to know. Thanks for sharing, I’m still gonna call it a porcupine. I hope that doesn’t upset anyone! 😀

  • @jimbomclachlan5892
    @jimbomclachlan5892 3 місяці тому +1

    What is it a German!

  • @mikes.1882
    @mikes.1882 3 місяці тому +1

    And on 6th day God created the LT5

    • @GregQuirin
      @GregQuirin  3 місяці тому +1

      Yep - I believe it was the Lotus gods

  • @ivanrousseau5066
    @ivanrousseau5066 3 місяці тому

    The ports are way too low. ,huge radius at the valve, should have made in a lot taller.

  • @miketee2444
    @miketee2444 3 місяці тому +2

    I give Chevy a pass. Yes they've built overhead cam V8s here and there and some were damn good. They realized that the benefits definitely doesn't outweigh the drawbacks. Something to be said about easily removing a head and popping it back on WO needing a bunch of new chains and guides,

  • @d1bigshifter737
    @d1bigshifter737 3 місяці тому

    Ok ok so how much H.P @ what RPMS get to the good part come on come on in my best Smithers voice

  • @Jkush463
    @Jkush463 3 місяці тому

    cobbled together garbage. fords indy motors were so far ahead of this turd in the early 60's its not even funny.

  • @Selmerpilot
    @Selmerpilot 3 місяці тому

    Clearly trying to copy the Italians and Germans who had already been doing this for decades. Ferrari had made a 3L 4v V12 around the same time for the 312P making well over 400hp at 11-12,000rpm.

    • @jasonligo895
      @jasonligo895 3 місяці тому +2

      I'm not sure if the Italians and Germans were doing this before 1929 but Fred and Augie Duesenberg were making twin cam 4V engines (supercharged as well) during that year.

    • @Selmerpilot
      @Selmerpilot 3 місяці тому

      @@jasonligo895 Maserati, Alfa, Fiat were racing them as well.

    • @bcbloc02
      @bcbloc02 Місяць тому

      @@jasonligo895packard and hall Scott were doing 4v ohc even beg Dusenburg for marine and airplane engines.

  • @vizibug
    @vizibug 3 місяці тому +4

    those lifter bores have oil galleys...if they're left open, the engine can't make oil pressure... thats what the lifter slugs are for...

  • @michaelhartman851
    @michaelhartman851 3 місяці тому

    All you guys that thinks this was state of the art at the time obviously aren't too familiar with foreign engineering, my 75 fiat which is a dohc was originally created in the late 60 and Alfa Romeo was already using vvt in the 70s American engines have always been a little bit behind on engineering, these early manufacturers of dohc engines already had them fully worked out and very reliable, this is cool to see though, it's probably the cost and complexity that kept Chevy from manufacturing it in their passenger vehicles, makes me curious how a modern day version of this would be against the 5.0 coyote, in my opinion the coyote is one of the best small v8s out there.

    • @alfredstewart5107
      @alfredstewart5107 3 місяці тому

      Something like chevs Lt6? 8600rpm 670hp dohc 5.5lt

  • @ThunderAppeal
    @ThunderAppeal 3 місяці тому

    Its a standard chevy block, the rest is a kit.

  • @matthewmoilanen787
    @matthewmoilanen787 3 місяці тому +1

    Sorry Chev guys but this was another failed attempt by GM to compete with Ford's Cosworth. But in all fairness it's pretty cool anyway!

    • @alfredstewart5107
      @alfredstewart5107 3 місяці тому

      It wasn't a gm project and nothing to do with the Cosworth.

    • @matthewmoilanen787
      @matthewmoilanen787 3 місяці тому

      @@alfredstewart5107 Obviously it IS a GM project as they produced it and if u would do one ounce of research u would find that GM was trying to create a stock block engine to compete with the Cosworth for Indy car competition. Good Lord man, at least do two minutes of research before u make a statement.

    • @alfredstewart5107
      @alfredstewart5107 3 місяці тому

      @@matthewmoilanen787 i did research and you are wrong. You are welcome to provide evidence proving otherwise.

    • @matthewmoilanen787
      @matthewmoilanen787 3 місяці тому

      @@alfredstewart5107 No you are welcome to provide me evidence of your claims. It's not my job to hand deliver you a note from your teacher. If you claim somebody is wrong feel free to prove it with evidence. I'll wait.

    • @alfredstewart5107
      @alfredstewart5107 3 місяці тому

      @@matthewmoilanen787 thats a lot of words to say you are wrong