My impression: Attendees trying to become something they're not, instead of becoming confortable with what they are. That, or attention seekers using it as a theatre stage. And i can't imagine any situation where the TM style of speaking would be not cringy. Not for me.
I, like most people do not like public speaking. But I have to do it from time to time for my job. As a result I looked up toastmasters. I couldn't exactly put my finger on why they seemed unnatural and almost cringe at times. This video breaks it down very well. It should have a lot more view than it does.
I’m in toastmasters. I recognize the good and the bad, but I also come from a performance background (singing, acting and musicals) and I’m a pretty authentic person and I try to always speak to things with passion, purpose and personality (while also of course being prepared and putting in some performance aspects) but I always want it to be ME who shines through, and this is what makes me stand out as a member. I listen to critiques but only really take in what makes sense for me and my speech style. Sometimes I even (gasp) give speeches to my toastmasters group that I know not everyone in the group are going to love, because they deal with complexity and nuance (or at least as much as is possible in 5-7 mins). I will bring up painful topics and talk about them. Sometimes I end up crying because that’s what I’m authentically feeling. While some of my speeches have feel good or call to action endings, some of them acknowledge that life is a process to work through and that some things take time, and that it’s okay. Then again I joined toastmasters more out of a feeling of being anxious about life, needing a supportive group and wanting a place to share my messages, than anything else. I think in that regard I’m a bit more willing to take the “rules” or advice that I think I can use, and otherwise just kick it to the curb. My next speech I’m writing is probably going to be called “The Power of No” which will be all about my struggles with creating and asserting boundaries, what people can do if they have a similar problem and how to understand people who have this struggle (and how for SOME people a “yes” culture becomes toxic, as it spreads them thin, wears them down, and leaves them unable to care for themselves) So yes we atypical members do exist, but I know what you mean!
Thank you for your comment. I actually made a second video highlighting my thoughts in a very different light also. I do think it valuable especially because of the community aspect! 🙏
The cult part is so spot on, I am paying you so that I can come on stage and practice public speaking, not to organize the venue , the event , prepare posters ,bullshit formalities and arrangements, they almost guilt you into doing shit as if you are not suppose to have a life outside toastmasters.
It can certainly be a good start, if you don't have any exposure to public speaking, but you need to graduate as soon as you can and find your own method. Stage confidence is more about having good knowledge about wide variety of subjects and to be able to articulate it effectively. Writing is helpful, Self-recording is underrated. There is more to public speaking than superficial gestures or manners or speaking style or the way you move on stage, which is sadly the point of emphasis most of the time in these clubs, I mean "ARE YOU KIDDING ME? ", that dude just summarised Nietzsche's Philosophy in 7 minutes and all you care about is how he is not moving his hands while talking.
Thank you for this! I've been with Toastmasters almost 7 years and completely agree with you. As an FYI: Toastmasters is a learn-by-doing journey and each person generates their own development based on what they discover, what insights they have or by "following" whatever the "rules" are. There's nothing you have to do and each person has their own view about how to have it work best for them. I do agree that the "rules" leave people in their head and robs them of their self-expression, which is why I don't prepare speeches. Almost all of mine are impromptu and when I'm evaluated, I take what makes a difference for me and discard the rest. Sometimes I don't heed any recommendations at all. The reason is because there is no real training and development specifically for public speaking taking place. There's mostly amateurs (newbies) judging others about something they know nothing about (nor have the courage to do) and before you know it, most of them will end up leaving the organization within the next few months. I cherish it for the space to practice public speaking and that's it. I don't believe in the other stuff they focus on because it is grossly antiquated. I emailed Toastmasers International last week because I believe they need to pare down the infrastructure so that it empowers the every day working professional with a busy life. People doubling and tripling up on roles and officer positions is ridiculous. Btw, the part that makes it occur as cultish is this: The overall infrastructure and opportunities that it provides is unnecessary and antiquated, not to mention people are in and out within a few months or a year. Most seasoned TMers (like myself) know this, and a lot of them become attached because they are afraid to lose members. We need people to generate this unnecessary structure that we currently have in order to keep the clubs going. That's the reason why it can seem cultish and that has everything to do with some people being just plain weird about it. I don't mind bouncing from club-to-club if I have to. No one is irritating me like that lol. I do respect the intention of TI and I know they mean well. I think they offer opportunities that people aren't authentically interested in or have time for.
Than you for this response. I guess it’s useful in many ways. And in a sense a bit of a shame there’s such a turn around. Do you invite professionals to come and share insights? I believe some do!
A strength of Toastmasters is it's peers helping peers to improve. A weakness of Toastmasters is it's peers helping peers to improve. Peers helping peers can create a friendly environment, unless some of those peers become over zealous and rule-bound and there are no masters around to guide (or liberate?) them. As a participant receiving feedback from peers, I suggest bell curve the feedback. Some peer feedback is just off. Many feel a need to coach, without the knowledge to do so, armed only with what they heard from others, instead of discerning and sharing their responses and leaving the coaching to coaches. The General Evaluator role is there to overcome these behaviours, but most just don't have it to give. After acquiring some initial comfort and confidence, the most common characteristic I hear in Toastmasters is speaking too carefully, speaking like they think they ought to sound instead of finding their emotive cadences, breathing, emphasis, and tones, the voice and personality that shows up with friends at the coffee shop or pub. As Andy Rooney said, "A speech should not sound like a speech."
Very interesting points there, thank you for your insight! I overall think the key is freedom of expression and presence! If your continually bound by rules you’ll never go further than your comfort zone and be ultimately limited!
It is a bit of a challenge to get people out of sounding like they think they should sound and into their naturally emoting selves. Why does a scripture reading sound like a pius recitation, instead of telling a story?
I find a technical description of the voice and mannerisms tends to cause hyper-consciousness - death by a thousand mental splinters. Modelling seems to help (I say their words in a few styles), along with exercises for a wider palette of sound and movement, and more abstract encouragement to emote as if with friends.
I think so too. But I really think the impression that especially beginners are put off by all the feedback hasn't been true for the clubs that I've visited. They all created a pretty warm, friendly atmosphere for beginners. You can really get your feet wet before you really get judged. Moral of the story, don't join a club if you don#t like the atmosphere or the people.
Toastmasters is more than public speaking.... Toastmasters changed my life and I just cannot accept what you are saying. After more than 4 years, I have never felt more safe in a learning environment. Unless you have experienced Toastmasters and I mean truly , I would really be careful with what you are saying! I was promoted, gained confidence and so has many people in my Club. I am so sad hearing this. You are totally off should not be sharing your closed minded opinion While you have your perception.... this belongs to you. Keep it to yourself! My life transformed and this is far from being a “cult” So sad that you need to share a wrong image... You have a right to your opinion... just don’t bash because it doesn’t resonate with what you are looking for. Your ego just got in your way.... Toastmasters is an amazing learning platform !
@Vie&c EUhmmm Dude, he has his perception and it's his channel, so he shares it if he wants. Btw, that's what you're doing now and you don't make the rules, dumbfuck. So if you tell people to shut up, you should do it yourself.
Agreed. I learned and developed in the 1970s and am heads and shoulders above my very young work peers. I still follow toastmasters and daily practice what I've learned.
You really don't understand what it is. TM is a "safe" place to practice and develop skills that you can or will contend with in the "real" world. The rules are remarkably similar to what you'll encounter in a corporate environment, or learning institution, or even a church. There are rules of behavior in everything - in weddings, in going to swimming pool, in buying groceries. Toastmasters is much like college: what you learn is how to survive, prevail, or excel in a "system". The number one thing you learn in college is how systems with rules and politics and techniques and skills and recognition and all these things can be embraced and dealt with, as opposed to being intimidated by and victim to. The world has rules. Toastmasters is a "safe" place to simulate the world - complete with rules, with politics, and everything else.
@@ImproveYourVoice Thank you for your comment, and shame on me for not watching the other one before speaking, particularly when you did your part by pointing out the other right up front. Nonetheless, the Toastmaster "rules" are essential to the process. In their absence, you move even further to the "Everybody's a winner" absurdity that is IMO a devastatingly counterproductive lesson to give the Toastmaster"student" who wishes to develop their skills to survive and thrive in "the jungle" out there. At least I can say that I've seen TM clubs that are as lax and lackadaisical as Californians, and they really come off as slackers, and the ones that are diligent and on the ball in mastering the "system" - which you can call "rules" - well, you know. But your point is not lost on me nor I'm sure is it lost on other viewers, that if you are hung up on following the rules, you are deterred from the basic focus which is developing and expanding communication skills. I've seen that too, and even myself, have become counterproductively "hung up on the rules." And TM has some rather stupid ones. One that I despised was being forced to use their manuals for writing speeches, where even though the manuals have merit, and forcing someone out of their comfort zone is a heavy theme surrounding that (with its own merits, in context), it impeded things much as you pointed out. But once again, the world is stacked with stupid rules like that, parTICularly in schools and large corporate workplaces; so learning to navigate the "silly rules" is paramount in my opinion. If you don't, then you risk being a useless lackadaisical Californian :)
I think that very few people realize that Toastmasters is abstractly far, far different than "a place to beat your fear of public speaking." It's an extremely well crafted clinic, a "safe" workshop, a "half speed contact drills" venue for personal development. Its very achievement structure is one half communication skills, and one half leadership. I can't count the number of people who have entered the program and never realized that this is a goldmine of a workshop to become skillful on so many social and professional levels, and thriving in the "jungle out there" -- no, people too often think it's just a place where you learn to give speeches.
Thank you once again for your insightful comments. You have actually shed a more positive new light toward TM for me and it’s always great to hear other opinions from experience! 🙏
The culture in TM is stupidwise robotic. Here is an example: You go there at 7 pm sharp and we all sit down and spend the next 10 minutes introducing ourselves. Sometimes even 15 mins. Now, if this is your first time to the club, it is very interesting. But if you ve been there 10 or more times you really know almost everybody by first name, occupation, etc. It is absolutely a waste of time and very very very very very BORING. And TM's will keep on doing that, because "it is the rules"!!!
Public speaking (in my opinion) has courage as its core. Other techniques such as body language, speaking clearly are nothing but points to sound fancier. I completely agree with what you said about setting rules and blocks form the get go can be misleading.
You are not the only professional speaking trainer who criticize Toastmasters. Let's face it, this is your competition and their programme is cheaper than any seminar or training out there with quite good structure. Before pandemic, the organisation had more 350 k members. Of course, not all of them will be great speakers and motivators like Tonny Robbins, Brian Tracy or Robert Kiyosaki but it is the same way as football players in the lowest tier will not play in the Premiership but it doesn't make them stop playing and they keep doing it trying to be better. What's wrong about that? How many Toastmaster members do you know? How many Toastmasters meetings have you attended? Not all Toastmasters are amateurs. However, I have no doubts you can teach people public speaking and better communication.
Thank you for your comment! I’ve met dozens of toastmasters. And attended only a couple of times. Please double check the title, points an also my second video on why they are great. Perhaps this will readdress the balance for you. What I do is totally different to them. It has its place and I have mine. There is no competition, only observations
Love this video (the humor) and I am a member-one that rejoined. 1st time I felt like I ran out of things to say. But With the rules and the judgment is so true. And I said my 3rd speech last night via virtually, even though I went over my time -meaning I didn’t qualify. I don’t sweat it because I set goals for myself. The goals I set was: for me to stand up & give my speech, have vocal differences in my voice and try to memorize it. So, if there is anything I can course correct I will. My evaluation had a lot of thought provoking points that was made. Said I needed to work on my vocal variety (which I did go up and down and I shown personality). I don’t sweat it and I don’t take it personal. I am still going to be my authentic marvelous self😊
As a TM member for several years, I could only ADD to this list. I've seen "rules" grow in certain clubs... eg. Years ago, someone stated you should move around the stage... use the space to "make more of the audience feel included". This has an air of perceived wisdom and became gospel over time. It's nonsense and has no basis in science. Some of the best speakers (TED Talks, politicians, preachers, professors) are rooted in place. I could go on
I joined Toastmaster recently and I think the strict formate and rules are both good and bad. The rules especially help non native English speakers. I believe the wide variety of people is good. The Um/ah count is ridiculous. It rewards shorter/ safe unprepared speeches versus longer more adventurous talks. I think commentary on repetitious filler words should be more for the general commentary/ feedback. I think the time should be used for audience engagement should ie general comments or questions. I think this is more like ‘real life’ as often you can have a great presentation but you get thrown a Curley question or comment that throws you off. I do like the formal feedback though, it’s often insightful and done in good spirit. You also get exposed to different styles that you otherwise would. Aside form getting a coach or formal lessons it’s probably the best option out there for most people. I think this coupled with watching a number of on line presentation styles is a good start.
The problem with Toastmasters is you don't make money from it's members. You are looking at a few bad things which is 5% of it. Your comments is killing your business
The trouble with these comments is that, once again despite readdressing the balance and directing viewers towards the positives video, there remains a strikingly clear failure to “listen” to my content; therefore further validating my points. I can only assume you have an emotional connection to toastmasters which Is what happens when you have exposed your vulnerabilities within a social group. Bravo, but my comments are unchanged! And finally, if I had to rely on comments from this video for the success of my business then that would be a terrible business model 🙄.
You are far too sensitive. Toastmasters helps a person develop confidence. It's not old fashioned. Incindently, slow your speech. You're difficult to understand. It sounds like you're ranting instead of speaking.
I did around 300 TM speeches during COVID. There were some things that I noticed on the international scale that are executed well and many things that need work. There was a LOT that bothered me in some clubs while others had thriving cultures. In some areas, there's such a high emphasis on ribbons and competing that one's own purpose for speaking and sharing their story gets lost in the shuffle in the name of appeasing people who are not part of your core crowd (doesn't and can't relate to niche messaging) and winning contests. There's so much of a disconnect between TM and professional speaking that I only recommend TM for those looking for guidance and help on basic mechanics. The meeting roles provide a good sense of teamwork and leadership skill as well. It's a good introduction. As I'd already completed everything I'd come back to TM to accomplish in my second tenure there alongside dealings in my personal life, I'd let go of my membership.. I didn't have anything to contribute for other clubs anymore. I had already learned as much as I could, getting the same evaluations over and over again. It was time to move on. There's a lot TI could do to engage clubs further and they have shown little to no interest in doing so. I gain nothing by doing the same projects over and over again with different titles.
As a Toastmaster, I like this video. I try and go against the blocks. I always always (repeated words) mention Toastmasters as a cult, it is very cultish. I use Toastmasters as a tool to say what I want. I hate pathways, and many of the quotes and speeches are recycled. Thank you for this perspective.
i have been a member of Toastmasters for 6 years. I'm not sure which rules you are talking about. Probably it's part of the culture of the club you observe, different place different culture. Though I totally understand that toastmasters is not perfect and it has its own flaws. + Safe place to learn public speaking - Speaker can get away with delivering poor & unprepared speech + Constructive feedback from other members - Not all member have the skill / qualification to give feedback + Toastmasters focus more on practicing than just learning theory. - People can make 'progress' in their edu program while learning nothing. + Toastmasters is much cheaper than real public speaking training - Not all member are qualified to be the mentor / teacher. Different club , different people, different meeting quality.
most of the criticism is not constructive at all. It is judgemental and even vicious. It IS like a cult sometimes. And I ve been to 4 clubs so far. More or less the same. Many people hungry for power in those places, also. Makes you scared. Also, they put delivery over the message. If you say anything in the right way, manner, gestures, tone of voice, etc, that ''s all that matters to them. Even if the conveyed message is stupid, they don't deal with it at all. In other words, they are completely non-academic, non critical thinkers. Very dissapointed.
@@mktsp2 I joined in the '70s. I work with people half my age and they cannot speak in an adult manner. Yes, they're adults. I'm constantly complemented on my public speaking and confidence. I've been a part of Toastmasters via internet for several years and have not experienced any negativity. My OPINION is younger generations have difficulty accepting constructive criticism.
@@belssage I think you are both right. There are clubs that are overly nitpicky and have evaluations that aren't constructive enough. But no matter the club, you also have to prepare yourself for criticism. But @Ef Ts, TMs generally won't give you feedback on the substance of a speech. The evaluators aren't supposed to tell you if the message was 'right', they're supposed to speak on whether you conveyed your message effectively. We sometimes get people talking about niche subjects like homeopathy, etc. You can't as an evaluator shut them down because you disagree with their opinion. You can criticize how the message was framed.
Being a newbie for a couple of months in Toastmaster makes me feel too many rules too. But gradually I understand more that the rules may make sense. It’s a huge organization all over the world. We have all different backgrounds religion believes and culture. It’s necessary to have rules and some of the rules are great for amateur speakers. Overall I love Toastmasters Especially for nonprofit organizations.
I was in Toastmasters for 2 years- Sgt. At Arms and I 100% agree. I ignored much of their rule making and marched on towards MUCH NEEDED INNOVATION, which some of the folks in Toastmasters absolutely hated! Although, I do feel that some older traditions this group teaches needs to return. Case in point, Johnny Carson was probably one the best talk show hosts on TV ever because - he was the perfect Toastmaster. However, the lack of promoting originality and individuality in Toastmasters is terrible!
@@ImproveYourVoice Sure. I think the 'bedrock' or the spine from my Toastmasters can stay (i.e. - hook - build - payoff), plus leaving out umms and ahs and buts, etc. But creating a presentation with a movie poster, video wall movie - back projected, props, sing along, etc, plus other experimental aspects is purely absent from this 'cult'. However, I'm not looking back since they let me experiment, so you really can't fault the Toastmasters. I'm rather amazed they let me given the tight structure.
What you call rules I call static (not dynamic, individual). These rules per se are ok just they are overvalued. I'd say these "rules" are ingredients that can be used to create a tasty menue. BTw I was a Toastmaster for over a decade. As you said I think you missed to participate in events aka contests outside the club settings. This is the area where you can learn a lot as there are no inexperienced evaluators on stage evaluating. IMO the new program Pathways follows rules very monotonous. All projects are structured 100% identical. Just my 2cents.
What rules exist? There are rules for the speech contests (timing, originality, etc.). For regular speeches, Toastmasters has very few rules. Clubs can ban certain topics (politics, sex, religion, etc.) but the organization itself only asks to not be intentionally offensive. Bar clubs will have different audiences and speech topics than church clubs. The speech projects have suggestions and guidelines, yet you can't fail a project. The guidelines aren't rules to pass or fail. Toastmasters deserves a lot of criticism even beyond the specifics of your video. I'm just not understanding the rules as they apply to speeches. Leadership roles and club business have rules, such as using Robert's Rules of Order for business meetings.
Robert Kienzle in Greek tm clubs they count every ehm you make and announce this in the end publicly. So there is a very strong pressure to abide by that “suggestion”
Hi Darren, I don’t disagree with your points at all. As a current member of Toastmasters for over 10 years (as of now) and I’d like to comment on them in the Improv Spirit of “Yes, And”… The biggest strength I’ve found in Toastmasters in my experience is not the “rules”, it is the observations, and how they can change the way one thinks about stories and storytelling. When I comment on somebody’s use of filler words (one simple example) it isn’t to mention that they have a certain number of filler words and to point it out as bad, it is to observe how filler words might influence their next thought when a pause might be more effective, it might not be... Another evaluator observing this the same speaker might point out the number of filler words and suggest that it is too many, another evaluator might not comment on them at all. Learning how to accept evaluations, is a huge part of the process, as is, learning how to provide an evaluation. So I suppose, one huge strength in my Toastmasters experience is how I process the evaluations I’m given, and also how I provide them. The rules have been given the wrong name in my opinion, they’re just points on a map to be aware of in my own story telling. Maybe I need to read them, and compare to my most recent speech.
It varies. I'm in the States. One club I went to felt like I was in high school. Another was more formal for business employees, mostly, but open to public. It's very "new member" focused. It's hard to get detailed criticism. Some clubs I noticed are just for certain organizational employees while others college students. With rules, they have their pros and cons. I've heard great public speakers use ums. In the first club I mentioned, they would have marked it. In the other, after a few levels not so much. Also. I can see why it seems like a cult akin to JW. Where they part is there's no consequence for leaving in TM. Groupthink would be a better term than cult.
Do you think there is another way? For instance, you do speaking coaching, is there a group setting that meets that eliminates what you say are the downfalls?
There are many Matt. Thanks for your comment. But first I’d like to clarify that the opinions expressed in this video are counterbalanced with a second video, released the same day, which highlights what I consider “why toastmasters is great for public speakers”. There are however, I believe other ways, training and methodologies (in groups) that can be of greater impact to releasing the emotional blocks and phobias that speaking in public often brings up. Actor training for example, like improvisation, movement and especially what I do ‘voice coaching’. My aim is to help others find the freedom to express themselves and unlock emotional barriers which stifle the voice and its ability to connect words with an audience. Other practices which are beneficial to this and work in groups are Yoga, Pilates, qigong, tai chi, gyro-tonic, meditation and a host of other holistic practices. Interestingly, they all promote, health, longevity and overall well-being that have the side effect of improved posture, better breathing practice, stronger sense of self and greater confidence. Once those things are taken care of then speaking is simply a way to share your message instead of some frightful beast that needs taming. IMO 😁
The Cult part is dead on. I think it is more of a Soft Cult. People get caught up in the organization definitly some good things about it. But when you feel the soft cult vibe trust your instincts.
I'm a TM member and I totally see where people are coming from with that. I keep telling other club members we can't do too much cult-like crap. But if the members of your local club of choice aren't too intense, all the other benefits definitely are worth joining. It's just a stage that you can use for your advantage, and a way to get comfortable with standing in front of an audience. It was also really good to get a professional / friend network as an adult in a new town.
rules are required for the way you structure your speech and delivery, they are meant to be "practised" and not "memorised", so i think rules are required which gives you a framework with which you can experiment. Toastmasters gives you the platform to experiment and tweak as per your style. So if a person is sounding robotic its not that about toastmasters creating them, its rather the individual interpreting it like that.
I've been a Toastmaster for many years and I love it to my core. This was very hard to watch precisely because of how true it is. I cringe at speeches that are too rigid and revel in a natural speakers truth. I will always be a TM, I continue to spread this message.
I think people make those rules be RULES and not simply recommandations for a nicer speech. That's what happens when people are impacted by the educational system where they are thought to obey rules, not to be creative about how they can be expressive and theirselves in the same time. Maybe you think out of the box so you hate rules. But others love rules because they've never trained creativity.
I think that's it. Some people within TM cling too much to the recommended format and call people out for doing things outside of those recommendations. The rules themselves make sense within reason, they just shouldn't be taken as a blueprint how to live your life. I see that happen with other rule frameworks (religion, even agile methods in software...) and it is a mindset problem with some people.
Toastmasters has one biting downside to me: the wasting of time. People need to understand that when you have a hostage audience - who are somewhat forced to politely sit and wait - then you need to make it worth their time. And for God sakes, don't WASTE time - like those stupid, stupid idiots who need 30 seconds to push a shutter button on the camera when there are contest winners. LET SOMEONE ELSE DO IT and practice at home for that. Hey, I'm very tolerant of and supporting of people struggling and I'm highly admiring of those who take the plunge to address their fear. But if you have some lame, silly inane little presentation that has nothing remarkable or nonobvious to offer, I am often thinking, "why am I wasting my time here?" When you have a captive audience, who are stuck sitting politely, give them something new or of useful value. It's basic consideration. Some people don't practice that. It's as though, they feel like they have a ticket to do what they want, because it's their turn. Put some effort in advance into being interesting and useful. That effort will be recognized and embraced and nurtured by astute listeners in Toastmasters. And if you're NOT interesting or helpful, ask for help. That's the best thing about TM. A great, great number of the participants (including myself) are not there to "take" - but rather to pay forward and give back, or just help people who have the fortitude to ask for help, when you have the skills to share with them. And a great goal can be worked toward: when you are giving a work presentation, or wedding speech, or telling a joke, that people will be glad that they're listening to you, rather than thinking inside, "Come on, come on! Get to the point! That's dumb, everyone in the world knew that when they were seven years old" and such. Make the goal be for people to be eager to hear you, rather than eager for you to get done, because [EDIT: because of] your sucking their life force away by wasting their time.
@@davidwirth2716 Well I spent time and effort - a substantial amount - to provide a great deal of information. And in lieu of fast food superficiality. I have strongly observed that the people who decry rich and vividly illustrative exposition ... are generally - heavily - unwilling, unable, or simply too lazy to do the work to strongly develop a point (or do anything in life). Ergo - per my observation - they resent others who "go the extra mile". Perhaps it exposes their superficiality. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this is not you. And your point is taken. On the other hand I did make the point, fully and standalone, in the first paragraph. If that counts.
I like it precisely because it is not standup or a free-format type thing. You do have a captive audience, but you are given a time slot and people can't go over time too much. So even if someone is boring and uncomfortable giving their speech, there is a limit to how much time they can take from you.
It's a great way way to practice how to be confident in any setting, but if you stick to their rules you feel that this is not you, you will feel like you got transitioned into someone else, especially that I am more of an introvert, so as many people know we are cold even if we are confident, and they are trying to make their memeber like sardines.
enjoy your transmission i was ah counter a lot and it troubled me also i had to get help in pathways to get credit we are transitioning to agora where there seem to be no rules and adults are competing against children
You have to be more specific - WHAT rules do you object to? Hands in the pockets? That is a silly rule. But - besides UM and movements, tell us what? Being comfortable IS key! I agree! And TM does have problems, but ... be more specific, please!
My first and only time going I won a table topics award for best story. But all the pointers they gave were in the realm of " don't say um " and when I went up to accept the award they got on me for the "spin" i did before reaching out for it. I just never went back, felt too weird. I learned more being a tour guide.The lady that was giving me all the pointers after I had spoken during an open audience evaluation came up to me after wards and handed me her business card without saying a word and walked away. It seemed "professional" but in a American psycho sort of way.
You're clearly a natural public speaker. The people that have an easy time standing in front of an audience and gathering their thoughts, projecting their voice etc don't need TM as much. You really get the most out of it if you tend to mumble, get nervous, forget your point etc, because it is a friendly environment to try out what works and what doesn't. I used to hate presentations at work and school even though I love writing stories and speeches, and for me, as a member of a friendly and supportive club , this was a really huge boost to my career.
Hahaha I'm going to watch the positives video to what you think I agree with the rules being a hindrance st certain times but I think a realistic view of TM is that is a stepping stone to better things. And the best toastmasters out there don't seem to be affected by most negatives mentioned here. I agree as well with the cult-like analogy but I disagree that it's too the extent of the J.witnesses in any organization there are people that try their best snd there are others that become comfortable where they are. I think that the difference then is that if people are living / improving intentionally. So by that metric it then becomes a good platform but not an answer to all your problems.
I think toastmasters is great for some. However, if I ever tried to speak the way toastmasters speak at my work place, that would be absolutely cringy and make everyone uncomfortable. I found it confusing to not let the cringyiness of toastmasters into my own life and had to stop attending toastmasters. No one wants to hear you raise your voice really loud for emphasis at a work meeting lol. I just couldn't be myself, and myself, is chill. It works for me and makes others comfortable.
I just thought I was the only one who felt cringed and uncomfortable when listening / watching them lol I had always wanted to join toastmasters club in the city I was living in, but after watching several vids I just didn't feel like it's sth I want to do. I just want to speak from my heart...some emotions and energy, but not like Im about to convert everyone to become my disciples lol It makes me feel like that really every time I watch one of the speeches. Like I'm watching a cult leader or sth. I just don't wanna sound like that.
@@daos4557 yeah totally makes sense. Some of the best speakers I've seen at work leave their hands on the podium, and keep their voice at a mid range, it's not a performance at the theatre. I had a laugh when you mentioned the disciples part because when I did go to toastmasters my partner would say ' are you off to your cult '? For their credit, it works for some. Especially, if someone is terrified of standing up at all.
Thank you for this video. I was feeling down before I watched this video. But now, I somehow understand why I am not a good speaker. Now I know which parts of me that I need to improve. I'll subscribe and watch more videos in your channel. Thank you.
Oh yes! I received loads of input that I was adding “So” and “Um” to my speech but no input about the quality of my content. It seemed to be an amateur fest with heartless rules. I couldn’t help but notice the addictive quality, too, that kept attention-seekers coming back. But I must say that it provided a strange sense of community for individuals that might otherwise lock themselves in. And that may be valuable! In general, Toastmasters reminded me of MLM‘s. (Just my observation after attending several meetings / contests.)
I felt like that at toastmasters as well. Just sweating bullets. Oh.. and don’t you dare talk about business of any kind. Network, but don’t network. Lol
That rule exists for a reason though. It's supposed to be a forum to practice public speaking, you can't let people tout their business or people will use the clubs as an advertising opportunity. It's like the rule about politics or religion, it's not always followed 100% after meetings, but people largely stick to it during the meeting part.
I have Been a ToastMaster for over 16 years and I have no idea what your talking about You Clearly no nothing about Toastmasters And if you are a coach you are a very Poor one And I feel sorry for people who actually listen to you
@@akinsolaagbebi3104 he is trash talking ToastMasters international. Toastmasters is not a Cult. It is a organization where you develop leadership skills and well as communication skills in a fun friendly supportive environment
I've been a Toastmaster for nearly 5 years and I get some of the criticism he's talking about. Not one person can talk without using filler words and I have my days where I allow myself to be terrible. I am lucky that I belong to two clubs that are more relaxed in their culture. As an Area Director, I get that the culture of clubs is very different and I hear so many horror stories about how clubs can be unsupportive and stringent on the rules. I wish he would link which rules he is talking about because that was the part I got very confused over.
@@angelmarie2281 I understand what you are saying I was a guest at a club that did things the old fashion way where you had to make no mistakes in a speech. The part about the rules confused me as well. I’m a member of a club in d30 and we’re supportive and helpful to our members We don’t criticize or judge others No one is perfect we all use filler words. I try not to it’s hard which is why I try and try the best I can
i was at the toastmasters meeting this one time and i thought it was a total thrash, i kinda feel obligated to speak about it in the group and protect people againt this shit
@Improve Your Voice i just joined AUTONOMY (greatest company ever btw) but they have collab with toastmasters. people attending seemed frightened but not of public speaking but breaking the rule that made no sense at all because everyone(6 people) seem'd very confused about timing and such things...i never spoke publicly but it felt i could get better result with speaking to a dog,at least he would not interrupt me and make me feel accepted.the meeting was very stiff i started to make fun of people trying to be so serious and only then they seemed to chillax a bit.yeah i think i'm about to make some enemies there
Ahhh, how can you say that Toastmasters would have been bad for Tony Robbins and Gary Vaynerchuk and at the same time criticize Toastmasters for using rhetoric to manipulate audiences? It's all speaking in tongues to me :)
Public speaking “naturally”??!! Who wants to watch a selfie video that takes 2 minutes to get to the point and is 9 minutes to make a 90 second argument?!!? TOASTMASTERS teaches people to say more in less time. Let’s face it folks: we all have busy lives - therefore less is more. Not to mention we learn to speak without using smut and vulgarity just to get a laugh or underscore a point.
Me a cultist voice -- LOL. I'm barely a CC. HOWEVER, I am pleased as punch that you paid attention to my point above -- your rebuttal was TO THE POINT and direct. It is a text so I can't tell if you used body language or not- but I'm going to assume: "Yes". LOL. I thank you for paying attention to my "Evaluation" of your speech- feel free to look up anything I've put out there as turn about is fair play---
Its not genuine, its humans acting strange. Like, we don't understand what you mean by "small" so you need to show us with your thumb and finger. Cringe! Nobody watches these people, they have nothing to say. People watch experts in particular fields that have new interesting information to give.
I don’t know what Toastmasters clubs you have been to, but most of what you are saying is absolute rubbish. Rules? Blocks? Cult? Lack of individuality? I really wanted to hear a reasoned criticism of Toastmasters but all I heard was bitter rhetoric from someone who appears to have completely misunderstood what Toastmasters is all about. I am a member of 3 toastmaster clubs and not one of your criticisms could be applied to any of these clubs or their members. Toastmasters is not the only Organisation to help you improve your speaking and leadership skills but it sure is the best and by far the best value. Manipulate the audience? Again, rubbish. Connection with your audience? Yes. Giving something useful to your audience? Yes. Rules? What rules. I would not go to this man if you paid me.
I listened to the whole of your video and found it negative and misleading. Instead I will listen to some of the 364,000 Toastmasters worldwide, in an Organisation that has helped millions of people gain their confidence in public speaking and develop their leadership skills over the past 97 years. Perhaps it is the fact that 78% of the membership have a bachelor’s degree or higher puts you off? Not that it is elitist - it is welcoming to even skeptics like yourself.
Toastmasters Good if you want to become a broadway stage actor or a stand up comedian. Bad if you want to improve your presentation skills at your job.
Different clubs have different vibes. I've seen some that were *very* corporate in their tone and orientation, and some where everybody thought they were part of an improv class
You are not criticising Toastmasters yet you call it Terrible. Obviously, your way of generating business as a coach is to publicly malign the "opposition". That approach completely undermines your credibility.
Just my opinion. Many toastmasters agree, just read the comments. I also made an positives video to balance my argument but seems many of you can’t bring yourselves to watch it. Maybe do that and we can talk! 😁 thanks for your comment!
It’s really too bad you are so negative about something you are clearly unfamiliar with. You’re like critics of Christianity who only met a couple of bigots. If your goal was to annoy the 360,000 members and 16,600 TM clubs in the world, congratulations. How many clients do you have? Frankly, you are decidedly not a credible source to “disclose” anything about an almost 100 year old institution that is constantly evolving.
Mate, was your milk sour this morning ? With all due respect, I’ve never had such a spewing gob of garbage in my life A religion? A cult? Like Jehovah’s Witnesses? Trying to trick the audience? People judging you ? Are you kidding me ? I could go on picking holes in your speech, but I won’t The words barrel, shoot and fish spring to mind I think you missed the whole point about Toastmasters. And maybe you’ve covered it in your other video but hey buddy you’ve just lost one of your audience - because - you failed to engage your audience. Interestingly, that’s one of the fundamental things you learn at ToastMasters. But hey-ho !! Try attending a few more meetings and even try a membership for a year to see whether you might get value out of it. And I suspect you won’t 94 years of membership, and 4 million members can’t all be wrong - and they’re not Good effort by the way xx
Well I respect your opinion and you have every right to say that. Especially great to hear from a Guy Richie fan! My experience comes from the never ending stream of blocked speakers who have become overly self conscious by these methods. This channel is about how to improve your voice. That’s the aim and my opinions stand! But I thank you so much for Engaging buddy! Such an InDepth comment only signifies the engaging, impactful and effective method in which I deliver (not a speech) but a vlog! Do watch and comment on the other video should you need some validation! 😁😉
Which Toastmasters Club have you visited? I've never heard so much rubbish. Everything you've said in this rant was predictable. What craft do you learn that has no rules and fundamentals. Life itself is filled with rules. How do you teach someone to use vocal variety without giving tips on how to do it? Ohhhhh you're trying to manipulate us to come buy your products? Nice try buddy.
My impression: Attendees trying to become something they're not, instead of becoming confortable with what they are. That, or attention seekers using it as a theatre stage. And i can't imagine any situation where the TM style of speaking would be not cringy. Not for me.
Yeah it's a total cringe.
I, like most people do not like public speaking. But I have to do it from time to time for my job. As a result I looked up toastmasters. I couldn't exactly put my finger on why they seemed unnatural and almost cringe at times. This video breaks it down very well. It should have a lot more view than it does.
It's cringe, better get a personal coach.
I’m in toastmasters. I recognize the good and the bad, but I also come from a performance background (singing, acting and musicals) and I’m a pretty authentic person and I try to always speak to things with passion, purpose and personality (while also of course being prepared and putting in some performance aspects) but I always want it to be ME who shines through, and this is what makes me stand out as a member. I listen to critiques but only really take in what makes sense for me and my speech style. Sometimes I even (gasp) give speeches to my toastmasters group that I know not everyone in the group are going to love, because they deal with complexity and nuance (or at least as much as is possible in 5-7 mins). I will bring up painful topics and talk about them. Sometimes I end up crying because that’s what I’m authentically feeling. While some of my speeches have feel good or call to action endings, some of them acknowledge that life is a process to work through and that some things take time, and that it’s okay. Then again I joined toastmasters more out of a feeling of being anxious about life, needing a supportive group and wanting a place to share my messages, than anything else. I think in that regard I’m a bit more willing to take the “rules” or advice that I think I can use, and otherwise just kick it to the curb. My next speech I’m writing is probably going to be called “The Power of No” which will be all about my struggles with creating and asserting boundaries, what people can do if they have a similar problem and how to understand people who have this struggle (and how for SOME people a “yes” culture becomes toxic, as it spreads them thin, wears them down, and leaves them unable to care for themselves) So yes we atypical members do exist, but I know what you mean!
Thank you for your comment. I actually made a second video highlighting my thoughts in a very different light also. I do think it valuable especially because of the community aspect! 🙏
The cult part is so spot on, I am paying you so that I can come on stage and practice public speaking, not to organize the venue , the event , prepare posters ,bullshit formalities and arrangements, they almost guilt you into doing shit as if you are not suppose to have a life outside toastmasters.
Interesting! Many disagree however, just scroll through the comments. 😬
It can certainly be a good start, if you don't have any exposure to public speaking, but you need to graduate as soon as you can and find your own method. Stage confidence is more about having good knowledge about wide variety of subjects and to be able to articulate it effectively. Writing is helpful, Self-recording is underrated. There is more to public speaking than superficial gestures or manners or speaking style or the way you move on stage, which is sadly the point of emphasis most of the time in these clubs, I mean "ARE YOU KIDDING ME? ", that dude just summarised Nietzsche's Philosophy in 7 minutes and all you care about is how he is not moving his hands while talking.
What do you think of BNI?
Thank you for this! I've been with Toastmasters almost 7 years and completely agree with you. As an FYI: Toastmasters is a learn-by-doing journey and each person generates their own development based on what they discover, what insights they have or by "following" whatever the "rules" are. There's nothing you have to do and each person has their own view about how to have it work best for them. I do agree that the "rules" leave people in their head and robs them of their self-expression, which is why I don't prepare speeches. Almost all of mine are impromptu and when I'm evaluated, I take what makes a difference for me and discard the rest. Sometimes I don't heed any recommendations at all. The reason is because there is no real training and development specifically for public speaking taking place. There's mostly amateurs (newbies) judging others about something they know nothing about (nor have the courage to do) and before you know it, most of them will end up leaving the organization within the next few months. I cherish it for the space to practice public speaking and that's it. I don't believe in the other stuff they focus on because it is grossly antiquated. I emailed Toastmasers International last week because I believe they need to pare down the infrastructure so that it empowers the every day working professional with a busy life. People doubling and tripling up on roles and officer positions is ridiculous. Btw, the part that makes it occur as cultish is this: The overall infrastructure and opportunities that it provides is unnecessary and antiquated, not to mention people are in and out within a few months or a year. Most seasoned TMers (like myself) know this, and a lot of them become attached because they are afraid to lose members. We need people to generate this unnecessary structure that we currently have in order to keep the clubs going. That's the reason why it can seem cultish and that has everything to do with some people being just plain weird about it. I don't mind bouncing from club-to-club if I have to. No one is irritating me like that lol. I do respect the intention of TI and I know they mean well. I think they offer opportunities that people aren't authentically interested in or have time for.
Than you for this response. I guess it’s useful in many ways. And in a sense a bit of a shame there’s such a turn around. Do you invite professionals to come and share insights? I believe some do!
A strength of Toastmasters is it's peers helping peers to improve. A weakness of Toastmasters is it's peers helping peers to improve.
Peers helping peers can create a friendly environment, unless some of those peers become over zealous and rule-bound and there are no masters around to guide (or liberate?) them.
As a participant receiving feedback from peers, I suggest bell curve the feedback. Some peer feedback is just off. Many feel a need to coach, without the knowledge to do so, armed only with what they heard from others, instead of discerning and sharing their responses and leaving the coaching to coaches. The General Evaluator role is there to overcome these behaviours, but most just don't have it to give.
After acquiring some initial comfort and confidence, the most common characteristic I hear in Toastmasters is speaking too carefully, speaking like they think they ought to sound instead of finding their emotive cadences, breathing, emphasis, and tones, the voice and personality that shows up with friends at the coffee shop or pub.
As Andy Rooney said, "A speech should not sound like a speech."
Very interesting points there, thank you for your insight! I overall think the key is freedom of expression and presence! If your continually bound by rules you’ll never go further than your comfort zone and be ultimately limited!
It is a bit of a challenge to get people out of sounding like they think they should sound and into their naturally emoting selves. Why does a scripture reading sound like a pius recitation, instead of telling a story?
I find a technical description of the voice and mannerisms tends to cause hyper-consciousness - death by a thousand mental splinters. Modelling seems to help (I say their words in a few styles), along with exercises for a wider palette of sound and movement, and more abstract encouragement to emote as if with friends.
I think so too. But I really think the impression that especially beginners are put off by all the feedback hasn't been true for the clubs that I've visited. They all created a pretty warm, friendly atmosphere for beginners. You can really get your feet wet before you really get judged. Moral of the story, don't join a club if you don#t like the atmosphere or the people.
Toastmasters is more than public speaking....
Toastmasters changed my life and I just cannot accept what you are saying.
After more than 4 years, I have never felt more safe in a learning environment.
Unless you have experienced Toastmasters and I mean truly , I would really be careful with what you are saying!
I was promoted, gained confidence and so has many people in my Club.
I am so sad hearing this.
You are totally off should not be sharing your closed minded opinion
While you have your perception.... this belongs to you.
Keep it to yourself!
My life transformed and this is far from being a “cult”
So sad that you need to share a wrong image...
You have a right to your opinion... just don’t bash because it doesn’t resonate with what you are looking for.
Your ego just got in your way....
Toastmasters is an amazing learning platform !
Watch the second video please!
@Vie&c EUhmmm Dude, he has his perception and it's his channel, so he shares it if he wants. Btw, that's what you're doing now and you don't make the rules, dumbfuck. So if you tell people to shut up, you should do it yourself.
Agreed. I learned and developed in the 1970s and am heads and shoulders above my very young work peers. I still follow toastmasters and daily practice what I've learned.
👍 that’s very encouraging to hear. Stay with the points of my opinion however and try not to let emotion dictate what you ‘presume’ I’m saying!
Looks like you are the one bashing without even a single concrete counterargument
One of the best things I believe I learned from an collage English teacher, was that the English language is open to interpretation.
You really don't understand what it is. TM is a "safe" place to practice and develop skills that you can or will contend with in the "real" world. The rules are remarkably similar to what you'll encounter in a corporate environment, or learning institution, or even a church. There are rules of behavior in everything - in weddings, in going to swimming pool, in buying groceries. Toastmasters is much like college: what you learn is how to survive, prevail, or excel in a "system". The number one thing you learn in college is how systems with rules and politics and techniques and skills and recognition and all these things can be embraced and dealt with, as opposed to being intimidated by and victim to. The world has rules. Toastmasters is a "safe" place to simulate the world - complete with rules, with politics, and everything else.
As I mention in my other video! 👍 thanks for your insights.
@@ImproveYourVoice Thank you for your comment, and shame on me for not watching the other one before speaking, particularly when you did your part by pointing out the other right up front. Nonetheless, the Toastmaster "rules" are essential to the process. In their absence, you move even further to the "Everybody's a winner" absurdity that is IMO a devastatingly counterproductive lesson to give the Toastmaster"student" who wishes to develop their skills to survive and thrive in "the jungle" out there.
At least I can say that I've seen TM clubs that are as lax and lackadaisical as Californians, and they really come off as slackers, and the ones that are diligent and on the ball in mastering the "system" - which you can call "rules" - well, you know.
But your point is not lost on me nor I'm sure is it lost on other viewers, that if you are hung up on following the rules, you are deterred from the basic focus which is developing and expanding communication skills. I've seen that too, and even myself, have become counterproductively "hung up on the rules." And TM has some rather stupid ones. One that I despised was being forced to use their manuals for writing speeches, where even though the manuals have merit, and forcing someone out of their comfort zone is a heavy theme surrounding that (with its own merits, in context), it impeded things much as you pointed out. But once again, the world is stacked with stupid rules like that, parTICularly in schools and large corporate workplaces; so learning to navigate the "silly rules" is paramount in my opinion. If you don't, then you risk being a useless lackadaisical Californian :)
I think that very few people realize that Toastmasters is abstractly far, far different than "a place to beat your fear of public speaking." It's an extremely well crafted clinic, a "safe" workshop, a "half speed contact drills" venue for personal development. Its very achievement structure is one half communication skills, and one half leadership. I can't count the number of people who have entered the program and never realized that this is a goldmine of a workshop to become skillful on so many social and professional levels, and thriving in the "jungle out there" -- no, people too often think it's just a place where you learn to give speeches.
Thank you once again for your insightful comments. You have actually shed a more positive new light toward TM for me and it’s always great to hear other opinions from experience! 🙏
The culture in TM is stupidwise robotic. Here is an example: You go there at 7 pm sharp and we all sit down and spend the next 10 minutes introducing ourselves. Sometimes even 15 mins. Now, if this is your first time to the club, it is very interesting. But if you ve been there 10 or more times you really know almost everybody by first name, occupation, etc. It is absolutely a waste of time and very very very very very BORING. And TM's will keep on doing that, because "it is the rules"!!!
Public speaking (in my opinion) has courage as its core. Other techniques such as body language, speaking clearly are nothing but points to sound fancier. I completely agree with what you said about setting rules and blocks form the get go can be misleading.
You are not the only professional speaking trainer who criticize Toastmasters. Let's face it, this is your competition and their programme is cheaper than any seminar or training out there with quite good structure. Before pandemic, the organisation had more 350 k members. Of course, not all of them will be great speakers and motivators like Tonny Robbins, Brian Tracy or Robert Kiyosaki but it is the same way as football players in the lowest tier will not play in the Premiership but it doesn't make them stop playing and they keep doing it trying to be better. What's wrong about that? How many Toastmaster members do you know? How many Toastmasters meetings have you attended? Not all Toastmasters are amateurs. However, I have no doubts you can teach people public speaking and better communication.
Thank you for your comment! I’ve met dozens of toastmasters. And attended only a couple of times. Please double check the title, points an also my second video on why they are great. Perhaps this will readdress the balance for you. What I do is totally different to them. It has its place and I have mine. There is no competition, only observations
Love this video (the humor) and I am a member-one that rejoined. 1st time I felt like I ran out of things to say. But With the rules and the judgment is so true. And I said my 3rd speech last night via virtually, even though I went over my time -meaning I didn’t qualify. I don’t sweat it because I set goals for myself. The goals I set was: for me to stand up & give my speech, have vocal differences in my voice and try to memorize it. So, if there is anything I can course correct I will. My evaluation had a lot of thought provoking points that was made. Said I needed to work on my vocal variety (which I did go up and down and I shown personality). I don’t sweat it and I don’t take it personal. I am still going to be my authentic marvelous self😊
As a TM member for several years, I could only ADD to this list. I've seen "rules" grow in certain clubs... eg. Years ago, someone stated you should move around the stage... use the space to "make more of the audience feel included". This has an air of perceived wisdom and became gospel over time. It's nonsense and has no basis in science. Some of the best speakers (TED Talks, politicians, preachers, professors) are rooted in place. I could go on
And here I am feeling dumb about not knowing anything about Toastmasters 😂😅
Did you see the other vid?
@@ImproveYourVoice Yes..just after commenting on this one 😅
I joined Toastmaster recently and I think the strict formate and rules are both good and bad. The rules especially help non native English speakers. I believe the wide variety of people is good.
The Um/ah count is ridiculous. It rewards shorter/ safe unprepared speeches versus longer more adventurous talks. I think commentary on repetitious filler words should be more for the general commentary/ feedback. I think the time should be used for audience engagement should ie general comments or questions.
I think this is more like ‘real life’ as often you can have a great presentation but you get thrown a Curley question or comment that throws you off.
I do like the formal feedback though, it’s often insightful and done in good spirit. You also get exposed to different styles that you otherwise would. Aside form getting a coach or formal lessons it’s probably the best option out there for most people. I think this coupled with watching a number of on line presentation styles is a good start.
I did make a positive video also. Thanks for your comment! 💪
The problem with Toastmasters is you don't make money from it's members. You are looking at a few bad things which is 5% of it. Your comments is killing your business
The trouble with these comments is that, once again despite readdressing the balance and directing viewers towards the positives video, there remains a strikingly clear failure to “listen” to my content; therefore further validating my points. I can only assume you have an emotional connection to toastmasters which Is what happens when you have exposed your vulnerabilities within a social group. Bravo, but my comments are unchanged! And finally, if I had to rely on comments from this video for the success of my business then that would be a terrible business model 🙄.
You are far too sensitive. Toastmasters helps a person develop confidence. It's not old fashioned. Incindently, slow your speech. You're difficult to understand. It sounds like you're ranting instead of speaking.
I’m sensitive? 😂🤣🤣🤣
You are speaking so fast though
Okay thanks for the tips! 🤣
I did around 300 TM speeches during COVID. There were some things that I noticed on the international scale that are executed well and many things that need work. There was a LOT that bothered me in some clubs while others had thriving cultures. In some areas, there's such a high emphasis on ribbons and competing that one's own purpose for speaking and sharing their story gets lost in the shuffle in the name of appeasing people who are not part of your core crowd (doesn't and can't relate to niche messaging) and winning contests. There's so much of a disconnect between TM and professional speaking that I only recommend TM for those looking for guidance and help on basic mechanics. The meeting roles provide a good sense of teamwork and leadership skill as well. It's a good introduction. As I'd already completed everything I'd come back to TM to accomplish in my second tenure there alongside dealings in my personal life, I'd let go of my membership.. I didn't have anything to contribute for other clubs anymore. I had already learned as much as I could, getting the same evaluations over and over again. It was time to move on. There's a lot TI could do to engage clubs further and they have shown little to no interest in doing so. I gain nothing by doing the same projects over and over again with different titles.
As a Toastmaster, I like this video. I try and go against the blocks. I always always (repeated words) mention Toastmasters as a cult, it is very cultish. I use Toastmasters as a tool to say what I want. I hate pathways, and many of the quotes and speeches are recycled.
Thank you for this perspective.
Did you catch my other video on them?
i have been a member of Toastmasters for 6 years. I'm not sure which rules you are talking about. Probably it's part of the culture of the club you observe, different place different culture.
Though I totally understand that toastmasters is not perfect and it has its own flaws.
+ Safe place to learn public speaking
- Speaker can get away with delivering poor & unprepared speech
+ Constructive feedback from other members
- Not all member have the skill / qualification to give feedback
+ Toastmasters focus more on practicing than just learning theory.
- People can make 'progress' in their edu program while learning nothing.
+ Toastmasters is much cheaper than real public speaking training
- Not all member are qualified to be the mentor / teacher. Different club , different people, different meeting quality.
most of the criticism is not constructive at all. It is judgemental and even vicious. It IS like a cult sometimes. And I ve been to 4 clubs so far. More or less the same. Many people hungry for power in those places, also. Makes you scared. Also, they put delivery over the message. If you say anything in the right way, manner, gestures, tone of voice, etc, that ''s all that matters to them. Even if the conveyed message is stupid, they don't deal with it at all. In other words, they are completely non-academic, non critical thinkers. Very dissapointed.
@@mktsp2 I joined in the '70s. I work with people half my age and they cannot speak in an adult manner. Yes, they're adults. I'm constantly complemented on my public speaking and confidence. I've been a part of Toastmasters via internet for several years and have not experienced any negativity. My OPINION is younger generations have difficulty accepting constructive criticism.
@@belssage I think you are both right. There are clubs that are overly nitpicky and have evaluations that aren't constructive enough. But no matter the club, you also have to prepare yourself for criticism.
But @Ef Ts, TMs generally won't give you feedback on the substance of a speech. The evaluators aren't supposed to tell you if the message was 'right', they're supposed to speak on whether you conveyed your message effectively.
We sometimes get people talking about niche subjects like homeopathy, etc. You can't as an evaluator shut them down because you disagree with their opinion. You can criticize how the message was framed.
Being a newbie for a couple of months in Toastmaster makes me feel too many rules too. But gradually I understand more that the rules may make sense. It’s a huge organization all over the world. We have all different backgrounds religion believes and culture. It’s necessary to have rules and some of the rules are great for amateur speakers. Overall I love Toastmasters Especially for nonprofit organizations.
Community is a good thing. Networking is never bad!
I was in Toastmasters for 2 years- Sgt. At Arms and I 100% agree. I ignored much of their rule making and marched on towards MUCH NEEDED INNOVATION, which some of the folks in Toastmasters absolutely hated! Although, I do feel that some older traditions this group teaches needs to return. Case in point, Johnny Carson was probably one the best talk show hosts on TV ever because - he was the perfect Toastmaster. However, the lack of promoting originality and individuality in Toastmasters is terrible!
Interesting insight, thank you.
@@ImproveYourVoice Sure. I think the 'bedrock' or the spine from my Toastmasters can stay (i.e. - hook - build - payoff), plus leaving out umms and ahs and buts, etc. But creating a presentation with a movie poster, video wall movie - back projected, props, sing along, etc, plus other experimental aspects is purely absent from this 'cult'. However, I'm not looking back since they let me experiment, so you really can't fault the Toastmasters. I'm rather amazed they let me given the tight structure.
It seems to be the case that each group is different also!
What you call rules I call static (not dynamic, individual). These rules per se are ok just they are overvalued. I'd say these "rules" are ingredients that can be used to create a tasty menue. BTw I was a Toastmaster for over a decade. As you said I think you missed to participate in events aka contests outside the club settings. This is the area where you can learn a lot as there are no inexperienced evaluators on stage evaluating. IMO the new program Pathways follows rules very monotonous. All projects are structured 100% identical. Just my 2cents.
Good Observations....
What rules exist? There are rules for the speech contests (timing, originality, etc.). For regular speeches, Toastmasters has very few rules. Clubs can ban certain topics (politics, sex, religion, etc.) but the organization itself only asks to not be intentionally offensive. Bar clubs will have different audiences and speech topics than church clubs. The speech projects have suggestions and guidelines, yet you can't fail a project. The guidelines aren't rules to pass or fail. Toastmasters deserves a lot of criticism even beyond the specifics of your video. I'm just not understanding the rules as they apply to speeches. Leadership roles and club business have rules, such as using Robert's Rules of Order for business meetings.
One rule: don't make too many "ehmmmm"s
That's a suggestion and something people work on. it's not a rule. I'm honestly curious to know about the rules that Darren mentions.
Robert Kienzle in Greek tm clubs they count every ehm you make and announce this in the end publicly. So there is a very strong pressure to abide by that “suggestion”
Good clarification, but suggestions aren't what I'm asking about.
Robert Kienzle I thought you were defending tm’s If this is not your intention, no problem just ignore me
Hi Darren,
I don’t disagree with your points at all. As a current member of Toastmasters for over 10 years (as of now) and I’d like to comment on them in the Improv Spirit of “Yes, And”…
The biggest strength I’ve found in Toastmasters in my experience is not the “rules”, it is the observations, and how they can change the way one thinks about stories and storytelling.
When I comment on somebody’s use of filler words (one simple example) it isn’t to mention that they have a certain number of filler words and to point it out as bad, it is to observe how filler words might influence their next thought when a pause might be more effective, it might not be... Another evaluator observing this the same speaker might point out the number of filler words and suggest that it is too many, another evaluator might not comment on them at all. Learning how to accept evaluations, is a huge part of the process, as is, learning how to provide an evaluation.
So I suppose, one huge strength in my Toastmasters experience is how I process the evaluations I’m given, and also how I provide them.
The rules have been given the wrong name in my opinion, they’re just points on a map to be aware of in my own story telling.
Maybe I need to read them, and compare to my most recent speech.
Perhaps I’m an outlier, it has helped me recognize what goes into good evaluation….
And also to gain value from not so good evaluation….
It varies. I'm in the States. One club I went to felt like I was in high school. Another was more formal for business employees, mostly, but open to public. It's very "new member" focused. It's hard to get detailed criticism. Some clubs I noticed are just for certain organizational employees while others college students.
With rules, they have their pros and cons. I've heard great public speakers use ums. In the first club I mentioned, they would have marked it. In the other, after a few levels not so much.
Also. I can see why it seems like a cult akin to JW. Where they part is there's no consequence for leaving in TM. Groupthink would be a better term than cult.
Instead of rules.. they should be principles.
Perhaps 🤔
Do you think there is another way? For instance, you do speaking coaching, is there a group setting that meets that eliminates what you say are the downfalls?
There are many Matt. Thanks for your comment. But first I’d like to clarify that the opinions expressed in this video are counterbalanced with a second video, released the same day, which highlights what I consider “why toastmasters is great for public speakers”. There are however, I believe other ways, training and methodologies (in groups) that can be of greater impact to releasing the emotional blocks and phobias that speaking in public often brings up. Actor training for example, like improvisation, movement and especially what I do ‘voice coaching’. My aim is to help others find the freedom to express themselves and unlock emotional barriers which stifle the voice and its ability to connect words with an audience. Other practices which are beneficial to this and work in groups are Yoga, Pilates, qigong, tai chi, gyro-tonic, meditation and a host of other holistic practices. Interestingly, they all promote, health, longevity and overall well-being that have the side effect of improved posture, better breathing practice, stronger sense of self and greater confidence. Once those things are taken care of then speaking is simply a way to share your message instead of some frightful beast that needs taming. IMO 😁
Mannnnnnnn........A biggggggg SALUTE to you..sir...spoken the brutal truth ..1000 percent adhrerence to this video ?
A big THUMPSSS UPPP...sirrrr
I respectfully disagree....been in many TI Clubs.....some great...some sucks......is all depend on the people
Like everything I guess. Did you happen to watch the first video I made on toastmasters? The one with the positives?
The Cult part is dead on. I think it is more of a Soft Cult. People get caught up in the organization definitly some good things about it. But when you feel the soft cult vibe trust your instincts.
I'm a TM member and I totally see where people are coming from with that. I keep telling other club members we can't do too much cult-like crap. But if the members of your local club of choice aren't too intense, all the other benefits definitely are worth joining. It's just a stage that you can use for your advantage, and a way to get comfortable with standing in front of an audience. It was also really good to get a professional / friend network as an adult in a new town.
This Is why I made a second video on the positives 😁
rules are required for the way you structure your speech and delivery, they are meant to be "practised" and not "memorised", so i think rules are required which gives you a framework with which you can experiment. Toastmasters gives you the platform to experiment and tweak as per your style. So if a person is sounding robotic its not that about toastmasters creating them, its rather the individual interpreting it like that.
I've been a Toastmaster for many years and I love it to my core. This was very hard to watch precisely because of how true it is. I cringe at speeches that are too rigid and revel in a natural speakers truth. I will always be a TM, I continue to spread this message.
Oh their are many positives to TM, Like I mention in my first video on them.
Thanks for sharing your commentary!
You’re welcome, any thoughts?
I think people make those rules be RULES and not simply recommandations for a nicer speech. That's what happens when people are impacted by the educational system where they are thought to obey rules, not to be creative about how they can be expressive and theirselves in the same time. Maybe you think out of the box so you hate rules. But others love rules because they've never trained creativity.
I think that's it. Some people within TM cling too much to the recommended format and call people out for doing things outside of those recommendations. The rules themselves make sense within reason, they just shouldn't be taken as a blueprint how to live your life. I see that happen with other rule frameworks (religion, even agile methods in software...) and it is a mindset problem with some people.
thanks so much!
yeah the rules sucks but I needed to talk to people to practice! and I think that's the important thing
It certainly is a positive yes! Did you Check the other video?
Toastmasters has one biting downside to me: the wasting of time. People need to understand that when you have a hostage audience - who are somewhat forced to politely sit and wait - then you need to make it worth their time. And for God sakes, don't WASTE time - like those stupid, stupid idiots who need 30 seconds to push a shutter button on the camera when there are contest winners. LET SOMEONE ELSE DO IT and practice at home for that.
Hey, I'm very tolerant of and supporting of people struggling and I'm highly admiring of those who take the plunge to address their fear. But if you have some lame, silly inane little presentation that has nothing remarkable or nonobvious to offer, I am often thinking, "why am I wasting my time here?" When you have a captive audience, who are stuck sitting politely, give them something new or of useful value. It's basic consideration. Some people don't practice that. It's as though, they feel like they have a ticket to do what they want, because it's their turn. Put some effort in advance into being interesting and useful. That effort will be recognized and embraced and nurtured by astute listeners in Toastmasters.
And if you're NOT interesting or helpful, ask for help. That's the best thing about TM. A great, great number of the participants (including myself) are not there to "take" - but rather to pay forward and give back, or just help people who have the fortitude to ask for help, when you have the skills to share with them. And a great goal can be worked toward: when you are giving a work presentation, or wedding speech, or telling a joke, that people will be glad that they're listening to you, rather than thinking inside, "Come on, come on! Get to the point! That's dumb, everyone in the world knew that when they were seven years old" and such. Make the goal be for people to be eager to hear you, rather than eager for you to get done, because [EDIT: because of] your sucking their life force away by wasting their time.
You too Bill probably could of made your point with out going on a rant.
@@davidwirth2716 Well I spent time and effort - a substantial amount - to provide a great deal of information. And in lieu of fast food superficiality. I have strongly observed that the people who decry rich and vividly illustrative exposition ... are generally - heavily - unwilling, unable, or simply too lazy to do the work to strongly develop a point (or do anything in life). Ergo - per my observation - they resent others who "go the extra mile". Perhaps it exposes their superficiality.
But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this is not you.
And your point is taken.
On the other hand I did make the point, fully and standalone, in the first paragraph. If that counts.
I like it precisely because it is not standup or a free-format type thing. You do have a captive audience, but you are given a time slot and people can't go over time too much. So even if someone is boring and uncomfortable giving their speech, there is a limit to how much time they can take from you.
It's a great way way to practice how to be confident in any setting, but if you stick to their rules you feel that this is not you, you will feel like you got transitioned into someone else, especially that I am more of an introvert, so as many people know we are cold even if we are confident, and they are trying to make their memeber like sardines.
enjoy your transmission i was ah counter a lot and it troubled me also i had to get help in pathways to get credit we are transitioning to agora where there seem to be no rules and adults are competing against children
You have to be more specific - WHAT rules do you object to? Hands in the pockets? That is a silly rule. But - besides UM and movements, tell us what? Being comfortable IS key! I agree! And TM does have problems, but ... be more specific, please!
My first and only time going I won a table topics award for best story. But all the pointers they gave were in the realm of " don't say um " and when I went up to accept the award they got on me for the "spin" i did before reaching out for it. I just never went back, felt too weird. I learned more being a tour guide.The lady that was giving me all the pointers after I had spoken during an open audience evaluation came up to me after wards and handed me her business card without saying a word and walked away. It seemed "professional" but in a American psycho sort of way.
Ha ha and how’s it going these days?
You're clearly a natural public speaker. The people that have an easy time standing in front of an audience and gathering their thoughts, projecting their voice etc don't need TM as much.
You really get the most out of it if you tend to mumble, get nervous, forget your point etc, because it is a friendly environment to try out what works and what doesn't. I used to hate presentations at work and school even though I love writing stories and speeches, and for me, as a member of a friendly and supportive club , this was a really huge boost to my career.
Hahaha I'm going to watch the positives video to what you think
I agree with the rules being a hindrance st certain times but I think a realistic view of TM is that is a stepping stone to better things. And the best toastmasters out there don't seem to be affected by most negatives mentioned here.
I agree as well with the cult-like analogy but I disagree that it's too the extent of the J.witnesses in any organization there are people that try their best snd there are others that become comfortable where they are.
I think that the difference then is that if people are living / improving intentionally. So by that metric it then becomes a good platform but not an answer to all your problems.
A well balanced argument, thank you for taking the time. I am curious on your thoughts about the positive vid 🙏
I think toastmasters is great for some.
However, if I ever tried to speak the way toastmasters speak at my work place, that would be absolutely cringy and make everyone uncomfortable.
I found it confusing to not let the cringyiness of toastmasters into my own life and had to stop attending toastmasters. No one wants to hear you raise your voice really loud for emphasis at a work meeting lol.
I just couldn't be myself, and myself, is chill. It works for me and makes others comfortable.
I just thought I was the only one who felt cringed and uncomfortable when listening / watching them lol I had always wanted to join toastmasters club in the city I was living in, but after watching several vids I just didn't feel like it's sth I want to do. I just want to speak from my heart...some emotions and energy, but not like Im about to convert everyone to become my disciples lol It makes me feel like that really every time I watch one of the speeches. Like I'm watching a cult leader or sth. I just don't wanna sound like that.
@@daos4557 yeah totally makes sense. Some of the best speakers I've seen at work leave their hands on the podium, and keep their voice at a mid range, it's not a performance at the theatre.
I had a laugh when you mentioned the disciples part because when I did go to toastmasters my partner would say ' are you off to your cult '?
For their credit, it works for some. Especially, if someone is terrified of standing up at all.
All style and no substance.
3:32 👍
Technique!
Thank you for this video. I was feeling down before I watched this video. But now, I somehow understand why I am not a good speaker. Now I know which parts of me that I need to improve. I'll subscribe and watch more videos in your channel. Thank you.
When you Criticise the opposition, you undermine your credibility.
I may be the only person who agrees with you completely :)
Do you have any stories to tell?
Oh yes! I received loads of input that I was adding “So” and “Um” to my speech but no input about the quality of my content. It seemed to be an amateur fest with heartless rules. I couldn’t help but notice the addictive quality, too, that kept attention-seekers coming back. But I must say that it provided a strange sense of community for individuals that might otherwise lock themselves in. And that may be valuable! In general, Toastmasters reminded me of MLM‘s. (Just my observation after attending several meetings / contests.)
I mention the community aspect in my other video on the positives of toastmasters. I do recognise it’s not all bad! 😁
@@ImproveYourVoice
Yes - I agree :)
I felt like that at toastmasters as well. Just sweating bullets. Oh.. and don’t you dare talk about business of any kind. Network, but don’t network. Lol
Terry Rees really! Wow that’s funny 😁
That rule exists for a reason though. It's supposed to be a forum to practice public speaking, you can't let people tout their business or people will use the clubs as an advertising opportunity. It's like the rule about politics or religion, it's not always followed 100% after meetings, but people largely stick to it during the meeting part.
3:28 You don't like Dale Carnegie? Blime
6:20 Agree
7:20 But politicians are successful. So if you want to be successful you have to be a liar.
I do like Dale oh yes i do. Not the point I was making. When you say successful???
@@ImproveYourVoice I assume we all want to be a better speaker so we can succeed in our careers.
I have Been a ToastMaster for over 16 years and I have no idea what your talking about You Clearly no nothing about Toastmasters And if you are a coach you are a very Poor one And I feel sorry for people who actually listen to you
im cosndiering joining tm, whay do you say he knows nothing
@@akinsolaagbebi3104 he is trash talking ToastMasters international. Toastmasters is not a Cult. It is a organization where you develop leadership skills and well as communication skills in a fun friendly supportive environment
I've been a Toastmaster for nearly 5 years and I get some of the criticism he's talking about. Not one person can talk without using filler words and I have my days where I allow myself to be terrible. I am lucky that I belong to two clubs that are more relaxed in their culture. As an Area Director, I get that the culture of clubs is very different and I hear so many horror stories about how clubs can be unsupportive and stringent on the rules. I wish he would link which rules he is talking about because that was the part I got very confused over.
@@angelmarie2281 I understand what you are saying I was a guest at a club that did things the old fashion way where you had to make no mistakes in a speech. The part about the rules confused me as well. I’m a member of a club in d30 and we’re supportive and helpful to our members We don’t criticize or judge others No one is perfect we all use filler words. I try not to it’s hard which is why I try and try the best I can
Very well said.
You have a voice for against rude and unprofessional system.
Just my opinion. There’s good too... did you watch the positives video?
I appreciate your honesty. I went twice as a visitor and did not sign up because I knew I would have a problem with the rules.
There is also much to be gained from peer to peer learning however, do watch my other video on the positives before you completely rule them out!
I see what you did with that drink 🥤
i was at the toastmasters meeting this one time and i thought it was a total thrash, i kinda feel obligated to speak about it in the group and protect people againt this shit
Now I’m curious!!! What was your experience?
@Improve Your Voice i just joined AUTONOMY (greatest company ever btw) but they have collab with toastmasters. people attending seemed frightened but not of public speaking but breaking the rule that made no sense at all because everyone(6 people) seem'd very confused about timing and such things...i never spoke publicly but it felt i could get better result with speaking to a dog,at least he would not interrupt me and make me feel accepted.the meeting was very stiff i started to make fun of people trying to be so serious and only then they seemed to chillax a bit.yeah i think i'm about to make some enemies there
I have never heard of toastmasters until this video but the way they came attacking in the comments feels hella cultish 😆
It’s balanced with the good video too but no one pays much attention to that 🤦
Ahhh, how can you say that Toastmasters would have been bad for Tony Robbins and Gary Vaynerchuk and at the same time criticize Toastmasters for using rhetoric to manipulate audiences? It's all speaking in tongues to me :)
Manjistha Seeburn
Public speaking “naturally”??!! Who wants to watch a selfie video that takes 2 minutes to get to the point and is 9 minutes to make a 90 second argument?!!? TOASTMASTERS teaches people to say more in less time. Let’s face it folks: we all have busy lives - therefore less is more. Not to mention we learn to speak without using smut and vulgarity just to get a laugh or underscore a point.
Are you the collective voice of ‘the cult’?
Me a cultist voice -- LOL. I'm barely a CC. HOWEVER, I am pleased as punch that you paid attention to my point above -- your rebuttal was TO THE POINT and direct. It is a text so I can't tell if you used body language or not- but I'm going to assume: "Yes". LOL. I thank you for paying attention to my "Evaluation" of your speech- feel free to look up anything I've put out there as turn about is fair play---
You’re very welcome. Thank you 🙏 I wonder if you ever saw the first video in the pair on toastmasters where I highlight the positives?
Its not genuine, its humans acting strange. Like, we don't understand what you mean by "small" so you need to show us with your thumb and finger. Cringe! Nobody watches these people, they have nothing to say. People watch experts in particular fields that have new interesting information to give.
I’m confused right now. Do you mean me out the toastmasters? 😂
TM sounds like a cult.
I don’t know what Toastmasters clubs you have been to, but most of what you are saying is absolute rubbish. Rules? Blocks? Cult? Lack of individuality? I really wanted to hear a reasoned criticism of Toastmasters but all I heard was bitter rhetoric from someone who appears to have completely misunderstood what Toastmasters is all about. I am a member of 3 toastmaster clubs and not one of your criticisms could be applied to any of these clubs or their members. Toastmasters is not the only Organisation to help you improve your speaking and leadership skills but it sure is the best and by far the best value.
Manipulate the audience? Again, rubbish. Connection with your audience? Yes. Giving something useful to your audience? Yes. Rules? What rules. I would not go to this man if you paid me.
I’m guessing you didn’t watch the second video then?
@@ImproveYourVoice nothing you gave said would tempt me to put myself through listening to you again
I’m sorry to hear that you aren’t able to receive two sides to an argument. But I guess, toastmasters does promote a one sided approach right?
I listened to the whole of your video and found it negative and misleading. Instead I will listen to some of the 364,000 Toastmasters worldwide, in an Organisation that has helped millions of people gain their confidence in public speaking and develop their leadership skills over the past 97 years. Perhaps it is the fact that 78% of the membership have a bachelor’s degree or higher puts you off? Not that it is elitist - it is welcoming to even skeptics like yourself.
Guessing you still haven’t yet skilfully negotiated the positives video which accompanied this yet?
Toastmasters
Good if you want to become a broadway stage actor or a stand up comedian.
Bad if you want to improve your presentation skills at your job.
Different clubs have different vibes. I've seen some that were *very* corporate in their tone and orientation, and some where everybody thought they were part of an improv class
Spot on
You are not criticising Toastmasters yet you call it Terrible. Obviously, your way of generating business as a coach is to publicly malign the "opposition". That approach completely undermines your credibility.
Just my opinion. Many toastmasters agree, just read the comments. I also made an positives video to balance my argument but seems many of you can’t bring yourselves to watch it. Maybe do that and we can talk! 😁 thanks for your comment!
Kya bhai.....tu kar apna apna
Anteeksi?
It’s really too bad you are so negative about something you are clearly unfamiliar with. You’re like critics of Christianity who only met a couple of bigots. If your goal was to annoy the 360,000 members and 16,600 TM clubs in the world, congratulations. How many clients do you have?
Frankly, you are decidedly not a credible source to “disclose” anything about an almost 100 year old institution that is constantly evolving.
Perhaps you should watch this to re-address the balance... ua-cam.com/video/FuxSTX9MFvQ/v-deo.html
Mate, was your milk sour this morning ?
With all due respect, I’ve never had such a spewing gob of garbage in my life
A religion? A cult? Like Jehovah’s Witnesses? Trying to trick the audience? People judging you ?
Are you kidding me ?
I could go on picking holes in your speech, but I won’t
The words barrel, shoot and fish spring to mind
I think you missed the whole point about Toastmasters.
And maybe you’ve covered it in your other video but hey buddy you’ve just lost one of your audience - because - you failed to engage your audience.
Interestingly, that’s one of the fundamental things you learn at ToastMasters. But hey-ho !!
Try attending a few more meetings and even try a membership for a year to see whether you might get value out of it. And I suspect you won’t
94 years of membership, and 4 million members can’t all be wrong - and they’re not
Good effort by the way xx
Well I respect your opinion and you have every right to say that. Especially great to hear from a Guy Richie fan! My experience comes from the never ending stream of blocked speakers who have become overly self conscious by these methods. This channel is about how to improve your voice. That’s the aim and my opinions stand! But I thank you so much for Engaging buddy! Such an InDepth comment only signifies the engaging, impactful and effective method in which I deliver (not a speech) but a vlog! Do watch and comment on the other video should you need some validation! 😁😉
Which Toastmasters Club have you visited?
I've never heard so much rubbish. Everything you've said in this rant was predictable.
What craft do you learn that has no rules and fundamentals. Life itself is filled with rules. How do you teach someone to use vocal variety without giving tips on how to do it?
Ohhhhh you're trying to manipulate us to come buy your products?
Nice try buddy.