The Victoria Line Gets 36 Trains per Hour
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- Опубліковано 17 вер 2017
- Since the May 2017 timetable, in the morning and evening peak, the Victoria Line should hit a point where 36 trains per hour (tph) happen - a train every 80 to 90 seconds. Is it actually happening though? I popped down to Pimlico with my stopwatch to find out ...
Article on London Reconnections - "The Ninety Second Railway" : www.londonreconnections.com/2...
Tube Working Timetables: tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publicat...
Genuinely would watch an entire hour of Victoria line trains!
Kilo Juliet Mmmmmm, especially at Pimlico, lol !!!
WE WANT THE FULL HOUR VIDEO!!!
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pakistan Railways Explorer I'd rather watch paint dry
Love the Victoria line they have the nicest trains and the newest
On my line we get 36 tpw - trains per week...
Inky Scrolls which line?
FinardoLittle 123 Animations And Gaming the whole of Southern
Near my aunt in France gets 2 (stopping) trains per week. 1 on sat and 1 on sun. And both in the same direction! No trains eastward.
Do you live at Roding Valley?
W&C?
This is why folks like you are important Geoff. There are those of us who speak, I guess we could call it "The Language of the Trains", and those that don't. And to be able to explain it in laymans terms is so important because otherwise it just causes more anger and outrage.
TfL, if they had their wits about them, should make you their go to public relations man.
People sit through these upgrade projects, complaining the whole time and once it's done, expect the system to run like a Swiss watch. They don't understand the intricacies of the planing and construction, and see it all as an "inconvenience", even if life and limb could be on the line.
Just as a personal example, here in NYC, the subway line nearest my house, the M line, is stuck operating on a modified service plan till the end of April so that they can replace a damaged section of elevated viaduct. That, coupled with a planed 15 month shutdown of the under river tunnel of the nearby L line in 2019, has some of my neighbors actually convinced the MTA wants to physically hurt them.
They don't care the viaduct is on the verge of collapse or that tunnel was damaged by Hurricane Sandy. They see it as an attack on them they won't have service.
web.mta.info/nyct/service/MyrtleAvenuephase2.
I've spent quite a few conversations trying to calm my neighbors down and show them these projects are for their own good.
Well, better a reduced service than them sitting on a train over the viaduct and the viaduct spontaneously collapsing.
Circle line is like 2 tph
ENIGMA 8, but it feels like about 2
Haha exactly!
@Ng John not really, the northern halve of the circle is shared with the Hammersmith and city and metropolitan line trains
I honestly wouldn't mind the one-hour video of just sitting at a station, would make for some nice background noise on a quiet day.
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Love these Geoff - good to see you back 😊
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Оксана Зимина Spammer
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Kevin Guweddeko what?
Geoff you are a legend!!!
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WTF here in America, A train every 10 minutes is a really fast service
I would dance for joy if I had a train every 10 min! I have to make do with 2 buses per hour ..
Carter pretty much the same here in Canada
@@wesderngentleman8820 this is the underground, overground trains in London are every 10-20 minutef
You go past Rockaway B. And it's a train every 12-21 minutes.
I was in Madrid and noticed the trains coming so often to a station that I wondered how they don't end up crashing into each other. You can hear another train coming before the current train has fully left the station. And it's true people run before the doors close. What's the point? There will be another train a minute later.
London Underground uses Moving Block Signalling to achieve capacity increase.
Instead of having fixed locations with a traffic light, to control traffic (fixed signal block) the signal block is dynamic. The signalling system will know how many trains are on the tracks, and the system will workout how much spacing it needs between each train for safety. This is then relayed to the driver, who will either increase or decrease speed to keep the bkock moving.
That in basic terms is how these systems can run so many trains.
So does Madrid lines 1, 3 and 6. Never need to run for train during rush hours. Madrid Metro is one of the best in the world
roachtoasties: "There will be another train a minute later."
There won't be if someone has delayed a train (and all the following trains) because they've held the doors open.
So it might be two minutes. Oh my.
Pretty much! Victoria Line uses moving block and Automatic Train Operation. The 'driver' doesn't actually drive the train because there simply isn't the room for human error and different driving styles in such an intense system. In fact, with moving block, you basically can't have drivers actually 'driving'.
Welcome back Geoff, you are a railway LEGEND!
Just like old time before all the stations . Good to see your video's are still comming.
IM SOO HAPPY!!! Your videos are fab Geoff.
Nice one Geoff. This is probably the first 'Geoff' style video we've had on your channel since ATS started, and honestly, I love it! Looking forward to more content by you. Keep up the great videos!
Cheers,
Matt
Hey there! I am from Singapore and our driverless metros on the Circle and Downtown Lines are running at about 90 seconds intervals during the peak periods, just like the Victoria Line.
And I wouldn't mind watching a full hour of trains on the Victoria!
Super. Well done London. I do not believe this could be done on my New York subway. Cheers.
I remember being very impressed by the Munich S-Bahn. I counted 40 seconds between trains on the intensely-used stretch through the city centre stations where all the lines converge. Helped by the sensible idea of doors opening on one side for exiting passengers slightly before doors open on the other side for boarding passengers.
Wow, new tube video! I have been waiting for this! :)
My previous commute began at Brixton. This brought back a lot of memories! Mostly of crowds and people with an expression just like Geoff's.
I love our Tube system, it’s so well thought out, efficient, and easy to use. I’ve been on many others around the world and although some are very good (the MTR in Hong Kong), some are also very bad. Try getting around Berlin on the U-Bahn and S-Bahn. Trains can have multiple maps inside and the platforms don’t indicate in which direction you’re travelling in.
I did the same as you did today Geoff, and sat down at Finsbury Park, southbound line at 17:15 to time the Victoria line trains. I deliberately went to the station directly south of Seven Sisters to immediately catch the extra trains coming down from the depot during rush hour. Unfortunately at one point there were two 240 second intervals in a row, and 10 minutes later the entire line stalled because of a defective train at Oxford Circus. I guess the train that broke down at Oxford Circus had already had problems earlier and was also the cause of the 240 second delays. I tried to ask underground staff but they could not tell me.
But what I found brilliant was that, once the two 240 second intervals were over, multiple, obviously backed-up trains started arriving at 80 second intervals. Apparently it is possible for the Victoria line to run with 80 second intervals if nothing untoward happens. Although running at that speed even minor things like a passenger getting stuck between the door will cause a noticeable delay.
Another thing to behold is the build-up of passengers in the station as a result of these pretty minor delays. Makes you realize how many people use the underground during rush hour.
I'm going to try again tomorrow - I really want to see an actual 36 train rush hour because if the Vic runs at that speed it is a thing of beauty. It almost as if it is a very high speed conveyor belt instead of a railway line.
I really enjoyed this video! Nice one, Geoff.
Subscribed.
Anyone used to seeing a tired Geoff now 😂
Callum LTFC You're so right. Geoff seriously needs a proper break from all this now, or he'll get ill. Listen to your elders!
i still remember the victoria line back in 1973 lol miss the old stock.they still have the old stock on the Bakerloo line which i love to travel on.
Great video. That takes some managing. Subscribed 👍
Really interesting video, thanks!
When the signalling and upgrades happen on the other lines, we could see all lines being timetabled this precisely (to the nearest 5 seconds... or at least to the nearest quarter-minute, as the Central, Jubilee and Northern lines currently are due to the ATO). All other lines are timetabled to the nearest half-minute.
What you say at 3:00 can also be experienced on the Paris train line A, equipped with a similar system. What it does is replacing the fixed sectioning (with one signal box every 200 m) by a virtual and adaptive sectioning, allowing the trains to queue at a station. With that system it's possible to get the average interval down to 85 seconds (which is already insane); to pass this point, we need a full automation, as seen on metro lines 1 and 14 with a theoretical maximum of 48 tph if my calculations are correct
As I started watching this "A Flock Of Seagulls - I Ran" started playing in the background on another tab. I think my computer wants to see another attempt. ;)
Geoff Marshall, Do you have any plans to cover the Four Lines Modernisation (4LM) in depth?
Meanwhile Tokyo has been using seconds for decades... and they’re right on Time always.
In the peak hour, the Shanghai Metro Line 2 can have trains come and go with about 30 seconds in between.
Cool. I know Paris line 1 does 41tph at peak. How many is that in Tokyo? (120 seems unimaginable)
When visiting a relation I board the Victoria Line at Kings X. The entrance to the platform is at the rear of the train. If a train is there then I board and carriage hop my way to Walthamstow Central. If train has just left then Geoff is right. By the time I walk the length of the platform the next train is almost there.
You could relatively comfortably hold your breath between trains. That's amazing!
The trains in the Underground stations of central London are very frequent. However many time re very crowded and I wait for two or three trains for a less crowded train. Usually the first an last cars of the trains have less people.
Vancouver (Expo Line) has similar frequencies, its just we don't know how to increase it past 120-ish (30 tph) with being consistent as one branch needs more trains than the other one.
Would love to see you filming the stepping back at Victoria - next time, maybe?
Great for the London tube. In Moscow we have 40 on many lanes during rush our and even 42-44 sometimes, if i m not mistaken. Super-convinient
I would think that, at some point, they are going to have to deal with the fact that people can't necessarily get off trains, while people are trying to get on them.
JLE stations like Canary Wharf seem to have provided enough circulation area for people waiting and people who have got off to get past each other.
IIRC the Victoria Line was built with smaller platforms than other Underground lines to save money (or speed construction). They are going to have to start building replacement stations at some point.
Stick in a big box, with platform edge doors and big waiting areas and you have stations that don't need to be rapidly closed down if problems occur. (You also have plenty of room to stick in wheelchair lifts if stations get redesigned.)
I also wonder how easy it would be to add length to Victoria Line trains, if stations were to be rebuilt.
The other obvious thing to do is extend the line from Brixton to give South East London some level of Underground service (and give the Victoria Line a terminus with track that can cope with the 90 second railway asperations.
The London Reconnections article was very interesting, but one thing that I'd say is that turnaround stations like Seven Sisters might not be appropriate for service levels, but I think they are essential to balance the system during operational failure or to provide alternatives to railway replacement busses for an entire line during engieering works.
The Internet is designed to route packets of information around disruptions. The London Underground isn't. I actually think that the way that the JLE originally worked (in isolation to the original Jubilee Line) is something that all Underground lines should be able to do...and do with high tph numbers.
London Transport should look at hypothetical emergencies that close the track on every individual station and publish a report (on a line per line basis) showing how much of the rest of the line could stay open with full power shutdown at that specific station. They should also be redesigning information systems, so that *when* an emergency cripples a train, they can reroute smartphone users, via unaffected routes and minimise the number of passengers that get stuck and have to ask for help.
In an era where we are encouraging a full trainload of passengers to pass into every station every 90 seconds, not being able to "get rid of those people" if there is an emergency is going to rapidly lead to massive overcrowding and queues that block non-crippled trainlines.
They are doing pretty well with improving the signalling of trains, but they need to start thinking about signalling individual passengers.
Geoff, thanks for a great video! I can offer you even better (by TpH) place to visit! :) It is an M1 line in Kyiv, Ukraine, where the rush hour intervals are down to 1.35 between departures! This is about 40 TpH of maximum 42 TpH possible. In fact you can still see the backlight of departed train while the next one is already approaching!
Andrew Godiy I actually saw that on the Central line back in 2010. I entered the platform on Oxford circus just as the train was leaving and litterally 5 seconds after the first train went through the tunnel the next one was arriving.
DrDewott yeap, that's what I'm talking about! Sometimes I wait for one or two to pass by to observe this cool thing!
You should come to Hong King, and take a look at our MTR system during rush hour. I'm sure that you'll be amazed by the time interval between each trains.
"I'm going to get a tea and go home." - lol being from Boston, I heard "I'm going to get a T and go home."
I was like "wait... the T doesn't exist there...oh..."
I am getting more interested in trains - very nice little documentaries
This is why I never run for a train already on the platform. They’re be another along shortly.
Well in Germany, in the city where I live, the underground runs every 10 min , so that's lovely
Tobi Konk - Where in Germany do underground trains run every 10 mins? I live in Cologne and in the central area, there are underground trains every 2 mins (four lines on only two tracks), but they are nearly always delayed, because the crossings, where the lines meet up are almost all on same level...
About the same in Los Angeles. During rush hour, it'll be about 5 min, and at slow times, 15. 10 is sort of normal most of the day.
I mean, my city doesn't have an underground ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Helsinki, with its one proper underground line with two services, has one train every 2 minutes and 30 seconds during rush hour, upgradable down to 2 minutes. It could be even better if they'd automated back in the 80s, but nope.
Inorite? Mind you, you can walk from one end to the other end of the city centre in 10 minutes where I live. And yes, it's a city!
I've always wanted to know this when the train gets to Brixton does a different driver do the return journey back to Walthamstow or does the orginal driver do it because how would the driver have enough time to get from the opposite end cab and set up to depart within 90 seconds.
God Damn!! in my capital metro trains are always delayed and the intervals could be as high as 20 minutes!
Bonus video idea! 1 hour of trains arriving and departing Pimlico.
fantastic stuff
Here in Toronto we are still in the middle of endless weekend closures of sections of lines as the TTC installs ATC. Mind you, we only have three real subway lines, along with a medium rail rapid transit 'white elephant' that needs to be replaced with a real subway extension. That, along with constant improvements, like elevators and Presto tap-and-go gates - IMO, Presto will NEVER be as good as Oyster, not even close - means that we might have a fully functioning system by about 2030.
Aren't you lucky? The best Vancouver has is that toy train that Toronto is sensibly getting rid of.
WerewolfLord, you mean we're *TRYING* to get rid of. Not to mention that we get rid of one, but Council wants to saddle us with 3 or 4 glorified streetcar lines.
Wow that is really close together I get so annoyed driving mainline trains in the london Bridge area on yellow signals, and we are no where near that frequent
In Boston we hit 10 tph on our busiest underground line... However they're doing works to bring that up to 17tph by 2022... Which is still less than half of London but it's a start I guess.
Correction: the other lines weren't just timetabled to "the hour and minute" but to half-minutes. (National Rail too is timetabled to the half-minute.)
you would love the moscow metro, a lot of stations run a train every minute or less in peak times
In your video for London InsidetheDLR:Depot You said it turned 30 years old in september but it opened on the 31 august
In Brisbane our main line suburban trains turn into a metro style operation when they reach the city as our city stations aren't prioritised for terminating trains, with only 1 of the main 4 city stations built for terminating trains, and the majority of those continue through anyway so heading in one direction in peak hour there can be 2 trains arriving at once with the frequency of every 2 mins, so every 2 mins 2 trains heading south bound will go through, and every 2 mins 2 trains northbound will go through
Brisbane has (more like, did have for a week in Oct 2016) 22tph on one track, and 18tph on another track in the Southbound direction (Northbound is slightly less). Trains every 2 minutes are currently impossible in Brisbane due to the signalling system. So many incorrect facts in this comments sections!
trains every 2 mins is just rounding, besides i have literally seen a train depart and another train arrive 2 mins later, problem is now is that the 2 trains every 2 mins isn't maintained for long, it will last about 8-10 mins, at roma street a train will depart platform 9 for caboolture and then in less than 2 mins the kippa-ring train arrives, and at roma street there can be a train on 7 heading north, and before it leaves a train on 6 arrives.
I've never observed a headway less than 2mins 20secs in Brisbane (on the same track).
Briz Commuter most of the time it is 3 min difference but often enough it will happen, most often will be Caboolture and kippa ring trains, maybe I'll have to time it myself properly when I have time
Andy Byford in NYC must've seen this video because the MTA is now targeting 36 tph on one of their lines when they install a new signal system.
nice seeing one of the small car big city mini's go past near the end 3:34.
I have a question, have you been offered advertising/promotional positions in rail companies as a result of your channel, All The Stations or Londonist?
Oh Geoff, you know people are still going to run for the doors ... here in Vancouver, Canada our SkyTrain light metro system (think DLR on steroids), peak hours headway is normally 2-2.5 minutes on the busiest line ... often you can see the headlights of the next train before the first one has left ... people still run for the door and try to force them open ... drives me crazy!
3:17 He's absolutely right.. Hate when people do that.
Beware Vauxhall on the Victoria Line- whilst filming my Victoria Line 24 December 2016 video a jobsworth started shouting over the tannoy at my use of a camera. And no, I wasn't using flash- I was videoing. Geoff never seems to have these problems!
Amazing! That's a lot of trains!
Even if some of the Victoria line stations were above ground, everyone who gets on the train will have waited for less for the train than the Time it took for them to walk to the station. Even if they lived above the station building
Pimlico 's a far cry from the Scottish Highlands, I bet!!
Back down to earth with a bump!!
I like that train drivers are accurate with timetable and close doors without waiting. I enjoy when I see a foot or a hand that is hit by the doors. The full of pain faces of passengers make my day. Underground isn't a safe place for people that can't wait.
You are looking too tired. Is this from the Allstations endeavor or from night life?
I've noticed that train doors are released while the train is still moving (VERY SLIGHTLY) as seen at 2:47
ALL OF THE TUBE STATIONS.......all of them....all the tube stations.....ALL OF THEM!!!! :D
well he's already done that like 28 times just in one day
I know, but its not much of an adventure. Its just a rush!!!
He set a world record which went into the Guinness World Records 2015 book for the quickest time to get to all the stations. He did it in just 16 hours
Awesome!
Geoff, not sure if you are aware of this, but there's an even more precise version of the Victoria line time table, which is timed to the second. It can be found as part of the TfL open data, here: tfl.gov.uk/info-for/open-data-users/our-open-data?intcmp=3671#on-this-page-2.
Geoff, please come to Melbourne and see our 218 stations!
Between what times in the evening peak does the Victoria Line hit 36tph?
In atlanta (whose train lines barely go anywhere), trains come at 6tph during the day, and noone rides them
So Goeff insisted throughout "All the Stations" that he was categorically not a trainspotter. Yet here he is, sitting on a platform for an hour with a stopwatch watching the trains go past... and he now has an hours footage of Victoria line trains... not a trainspotter you say? ;)
ahh but did he write down any numbers? that is the crucial difference :-)
And does we wear an anorak?
I wonder what the theoretical maximum number of trains per hour is assuming a 30 second stop at each station for passengers to get on or off the train.
wonderful
Moscow runs 38 tph on lines 6,7 and up to 36 tph on the rest. Only lines 4, 8a, 11 and 14 have less than 34 tph. Check out Moscow metro, Geoff, it's magnificent
These trains are so luxurious and fast!
TheLondonBusMaster345 The Victoria Line was the most modern and state of the art when it opened - good to see it still trying to keep up with the latest technology!!
I've just done the Singapore MRT and they don't even do that amount, probably closer to 30 at peak time
Reliability must be phenomenal bcos even the slightest delay will disrupt the entire schedule
Jeez makes the NYC subway look archaic
Nice vid👍👌
You killed the London connections website lol
Something I think could increase capacity rapidly would be if they removed blocks on the lines and instead brake the train in correspondence to how far away the train is in front of it. By that I believe that you can make the time between a train closing it's doors to the moment the next train opens it's doors less than 25 seconds. If you combine that with about 20 seconds for passengers to get on and off at stations then you could in theory have up to 110 trains per hour in each direction.
Systems like that are already in use known as moving block signalling. This was originally scheduled for use on the Euston - Glasgow main line with 140mph trains but then Railtrack died and Network Rail said standard signalling and 125mph. However, moving block signalling is in use in other metro systems across the world.
That is called Moving Block and is use on the Jubilee and Northern Lines.
The Northeast MRT Line in Singapore recently surpassed 42 Trains/Hr during average weekday peak. I recorded some data myself and headway seem to be higher than advertised with trains every 70 secs meaning 51 trains per hours. I suspected it to be world record but there's no data to confirm.
I would think that station dwell and turn a round time would be a limiting factor.
In Boston we're lucky to get five trains per hour!
Do you still work for Londonist?
Wang Yulun no just after birckbeck his friend took over his channel for allthestations
He's coming back though, and also Londonist isn't his youtube channel, he just works for it. He left for a few months to do All the Stations but is now back working with them
Out of curiosity, do you know what the average dwell times were?
Is it worth extending Victoria Line to Chingford and Thence to Woodford onto the north central to Hainault, thereby simplifying the Central Line ?
High Path
Problem is, is that during rush hour, the Victoria would not be able to handle the load; plus, the longer the line, the more trains it takes to maintain a certain frequency.
Yes, I re-thought that. Reason for Victoria - and it need not be every train, was to fit onto central line, although equally the Overground Service Now from Liverpool Street to Chingford could also fit on the above ground Central Line section/s (I speak as the bus service is fairly dreadful), but voltages etc would need changing.
I was really impressed by the Paris metro for that reason. Don’t get me wrong, I didn’t like it very much (at least our notorious line 13, which was absolutely crammed at every time of the day, incredibly loud and full of pick-pockets), but the distance between the trains was insane. Line 13 was definitely at its capacity limit, so they were running trains pretty much by the minute (or less) - given how short the distances between many of the stations are, it was not uncommon to still see the previous train in the station ahead when yours was pulling in. The downside of this however was that the trains constantly had to slow down or even stop in the tunnels because they got too close for comfort... This is an older video from a few years ago, but it shows the situation very well: ua-cam.com/video/dZtQkp0ce0w/v-deo.html
should do a video where you get on victoria line train at the start and get off at every platform and see how long it takes
+ race someone in a car and someone on a bike
Isn't exactly accurate - LU timetables always used to include seconds as well, times being available to the quarter minute. The new bit is the use of exact seconds rather than just 25 second increments.
You generally want to time the time one train departs to the time the next train departs, because some may be waiting longer at the station to keep up with the timetable.
P.S. Here's what 90 seconds looks like in Kiev
ua-cam.com/video/PGPFBHBmRT4/v-deo.html
Thanks for the video Geoff! I watched it as a study break whilst studying statistics as part of a university course.
Unfortunately stats has taken over my brain and I've concluded that, unfortunately for TfL, the hypothesis of a 1 minute 40 second gap (or less) between trains is not statistically significant at the 1% confidence level and we can say with 99% confidence that the gap between trains actually lies between 1 minute 38 seconds and 2 minutes 5.12 seconds.
Anyway, keep up the good work :)
How do the drivers rush down to the other end of the train at the terminus stations so quickly? Is there a driver already waiting at the far end, and the driver who just drove that train in gets off and walks down in time for the following train?
they do a thing called "stepping back", where a drive is already waiting at the rear of the train, to take it out as the new front of the train. in the meanwhile the driver of the train that arrived has indeed walked back, and takes out the train that then arrives AFTER that one that they came in on ...
Yep that's what the working timetable calls stepback.
As the Victoria Line is the the only fully automated line on the LUL I guess this is the only line that can achieve this high level of frequency?
businessbuilding1 central, northern and jubilee are also fully automated
No line is fully automated, they all have drivers on board. The Northern, Jubilee and Central lines are also partially automated, with the ATO actually driving whilst the 'driver' does the doors
It's 8 a.m. day 3 million and we're doing "all the stations"
How many?
"All of them"
Also, you do still need to run for the train and jam your foot in it as even 80 seconds can be the difference between catching a bus or waiting 10 15 minutes for the next one on the other side.
But you jamming your foot in the door will delay *that* train, and then someone else might miss their connection...
In short, the message is: Londoners, be considerate of other people!!
If you do that, you are a complete idiot. Delaying your train a few seconds has a knock-on effect to every train behind it. You sticking your foot in the door *will* end up delaying thousands of people behind you on their journeys.
With trains that close together, jamming the doors delays the train you're on long enough that it doesn't leave the platform until *after* the next train would have left if you hadn't held up the entire line, so you'll actually make yourself later by holding up the train rather than catching the next one
The Victoria line gets 36 trains an hour, we get one train per half an hour if you're lucky and none after 22.15. *cries*
I tapped in "36 tph" and got this. Thanks YT
I have a question I don't know if you see this but if you do please answer my question. Instead of just going straight for your destination could you theoretically go up and down the entire line and back to your destination and only get charged as a normal ride. Assuming you didn't touch out.
No, there's such a thing as Maximum Journey Times tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/maximum-journey-times which says the maximum amount of time you have to complete your journey. If you break that, you will be charged two Maximum fares
Always read the description