Do materials matter in cables and connectors?
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- Опубліковано 26 лют 2018
- Here we go again. Do silver cables sound different than copper? Sure they do, and that's bound to stir up an entire new hornet's nest. But, it needs to be said because it's the truth. Have a question you'd like Paul to answer? Go to www.psaudio.com/ask-paul/
- Наука та технологія
That is probably the best balance walk on the tight rope that this subject is, well done Paul
Anecdote: In the late 80’s there was no web browser or UA-cam or social media. Like minded people would participate in Usenet newsgroups which were like our modern forums. I used to read the one for audiophiles. People then spent time talking about different speaker cable thicknesses, materials, and topologies asking each other what they heard. One of the contributors was an engineer at Beldin. He would make up different cables and send them to audiophiles in the group to get their feedback. One person would listen and then send them on to the next person. While he would come up with different things to try from the products they made, he would also create new combinations. He would even ask people for ideas to try. Some of the speaker cables made were very expensive because of the materials and manufacturing process. But the company was not selling them but lending them to get feedback because this engineer was an audiophile trying to help improve music reproduction if it turned at that cabling mattered. Some types helped in certain ways and other types didn’t. (I don’t know what kind of experimenting people may have been doing before this.)
A good question. There is absolutely a difference in the sound with the use of different materials in cables and connectors. The challenge is deciding which materials you prefer the sound of. I would not let the technical numbers tell you which is better but rather which materials in cables provide a more desirable sound. As Paul had mentioned silver sounds different than copper and its clearly audible. I also agree “typically” silver has a brighter and leaner sound to that of copper. But there are also some cables that i like that are silver plated copper. Personally i feel copper provides the most musical and natural balance of sound. Same goes for connectors. The issue which Paul also addresses is that silver or copper will oxidize very quickly and that is why gold is commonly used on cable connectors, its not for better sound per-say its just to minimize the issue of oxidation. Rhodium is another alternative but for me doesn’t seem to sound right. Another thing to keep I’m mind and take in consideration is what the connectors are made from not just what is used as the protective coding. I personally like like the sound of copper connectors. Anyone who says there is no difference I’m sorry is just plain wrong.
One of the things I have noticed on this channel is that even when people disagree they are pretty civil. I’m sure we have all seen the channels where people get so nasty that it takes the fun out of the discussions.
Paul,
You are so full of great wonderful information. I could never afford your equipment, but have heard it. Wow! The legacy you continue to bring is amazing. Please don’t stop doing these videos. Maybe someday I could make it out to see your business and get to meet the legend and all the history you brought to this very important thing, God gave.... our ears!!! Love you brother!! Carbonaro!!! You truly rock!!!!!!!
My wife lived in hong kong for 3 years, she knows what youre talking about here paul, a fabulous place indeed.
Best non-answer to this question I have seen!
That's affirmative, Paul. As soon as I get my speaker/amps/electronic crossovers unit completed to my transparent liking, I will look into the different hook ups. Right now I suffer from frowns of the idea of bringing the Project inside from the yard!
Hi, Paul. Greetings from a Hong Kong subscriber, 4 years after this video was published. I love the Star Ferry like you do.
Please bring MORE engineering aspects - this is great
I've been to HK at least 20 times. Always ride the star ferry and call my daughters back in Massachusetts. I love it too.
Ate at the Juno Revolving Restaurant and rode the Star Ferry in Hong Kong many moons ago.
*Please do an oscilloscope test on this....very interested!*
An oscilloscope can't determine quality of audio, only presence and wave form of the signal.
@@SDMasterYoda Then invent the technology to measure it, as the ability to measure it also doesn't exist.
@@SDMasterYoda He ruined his entire argument by saying at the very beginning that wire affects "Frequency response." Frequency response is essentially what we are hearing as the over all end result, is it not? So therefore, wouldn't you want quality cables in order to transmit quality frequency response? Case in point. If cables do not affect audio quality in any way shape or form, because the specification says it cannot, then high end, audiophile speakers cannot deliver any difference in sound quality as long as their drivers are rated to the same frequency response as low fidelity speakers. We all know that is nonsense because people can clearly "HEAR" the difference between a cheap Jensen 2652 bookshelf speaker and a high end Dynaudio Focus 20 XD. But oh noes, we are using our ears as judgement against sound quality!!! Frequency response from 20 - 20K should be no different in sound quality and clarity from one speaker to the next, if what Ethan Winer says is true.
It is also true what Ethan says, "cables do not create noise." No, they don't, but they can accept noise from outside sources and will pass noise it is given. What a cable does, in its most basic form, is transmits what it receives. If external frequencies or noise enter the cable, then it will transmit that noise and frequency. If what it receives has noise, then it will transmit that noise. If the materials inside the cable are of inferior quality and more importantly, the GEOMETRY of the cable construction is inferior, then it will have difficulties transmitting a QUALITY FREQUENCY RESPONSE, as noted by the engineer in your video. Case in point, read the white papers on the HDMI spec. It seems you cannot achieve faster data transmission unless the geometry in your cable is precise and specific. Any deviation in the geometry yields slower data rate speeds and slower performance. Yet, according to nay sayers, that cannot be possible because it's just 1's and 0's. Well, because regardless of whether it is a 1 or a 0, it is still electricity through a conductor and therefore is subject to the physics of that medium.
From 30+ years of experience, having this SAME argument with naysayers, I have come to the conclusion that 99% of naysayers have never actually bought the cables or tried them for themselves. They looked at what other people said about the cables, looked at the costs, balked, and then found as much counter information as they could find, creating their amazing sense of cognitive bias. The other 1% borrowed or were allowed to test someone else's cable and attached it to a system that wasn't going to be able to take advantage in the first place. If your receiver or amp cannot produce nuanced and spacious sound, then no amount of high dollar, well engineered cable is going to help you. I guarantee you that NO ONE who bought a $15,000.00 dollar sound system, connects it with $9.00 cables. So, conversely, if you have a $300.00 sound system, don't buy $15,000 cables.
I would use a RTA spectrograph waterfall time based display showing an A/B comparison between copper and silver speaker wire. Should show something, because I can hear it. My iPhone X can do that, I am sure someone with a studio should be able to do a better job.
Here’s why silver plated copper cables are bad from Ray Kimber ua-cam.com/video/qJ-XeE-2qhI/v-deo.html&t=40m14s
Materials is one thing in cables. Insulation as well. That’s what everyone is focused on. However there’s also the mechanics of the cable. How the cable’s mechanical geometry of winding and layering is very important and sometimes more expensive than the material.
Paul specifically mentions that and says that in his opinion cable design is more important than materials.
Thank you Paul & PS Audio
You guys are amazing
Great video, audio, explanations
tutorials, lessons & clarity with NO
condescension. So sad after 4 decades of hands on experience,
education, knowledge & expertise
you still have the nay sayers, disbelievers & haters...
Even a master craftsman learns
something new every opportunity.
Humbleness + will to learn = Paul
Paul passing on the knowledge
PRICELESS...
"Do materials matter in cables and connectors?", YES you bet, I agree with all you say here Paul, the wire crystal boundaries you touched on cause directional current noises that excite insulations noises, that's part of why wires and cables sound different.
Another fantastic video. Thanks
Love Hong Kong.your right it’s amazing.im learning a lot about audio from you guys.thanks
What is missing, I think is the practical aspects. Some cables are more flexible than others, there is robustness, tolerances in connectors (does it fit properly), fire safety (some cables can't be installed into ducts for that reason). Corrosion resistance is touched upon with the idea of gold plating.
Also, though it doesn't matter as much for audio, the proper dimensions for impedance matching is important for analog video. Because different materials have different electrical properties, changing the material (the insulator in particular) can change the ideal dimensions.
That said, I have noticed a significant improvement using pc-occ speaker cable, particularly in longer runs. And pc-occ interconnects make a positive difference. What stands out the most is a smoother top end without roll off and a significant increase in spatial details that reveal more info on the space the better recorded music was recorded in. So much so that it becomes painfully obvious when the recording engineer inserts a track recorded in a different space like a booth vs studio vs concert hall.
Your ears cannot determine the extremely slight differences that you think you are hearing. Most of the time if it is not an A to B to A test back to back, you cannot tell a difference. And if you are able to tell a difference then something else was wrong with your cable. When passing electrons through a metal there's not a limiting factor from what you think you heard. Only on an oscilloscope would these different metals even begin to be measurable....
@@krismichalsky yet you can on a good system - and with good ears
@@gioponti6359 Nope, never has this been evidenced in a correctly administered ABX test. You do get these audiophile types who self-certify themselves as having 'golden ears', but this is of course nonsense as human ears are all roughly the same, i.e., we're all part of the average. Whenever self-professed golden ears are subject to ABX testing, they can never detect the incredibly slight differences that may exist between cable types (although in most cases do not anyway), completely understandably as we are not superhuman.
I love my music, but it's good to be aware much of audio industry marketing is based upon normal human confirmation bias, and to be aware of the snake oil salesman who will prey on that.
@@squicker who participates in “correctly administered” ABX tests? I for one accept only the best ear/brain combos, not Tom, Dick and Harry’s abilities. Why, because its my money that goes into it. So, lets face it, the only meaningful ABX test would involve me, as a requirement to be meaningful to me. Plus, I strongly disagree with the usual short term switching between 2 items. If i change anything on my system I give it at least a few days to convince me, unless short term test clearly shows the mod has gone in wrong direction. A few days are needed to discover differences that go unnoticed in short term listing tests. And there always are things one gets aware over a couple of days, even weeks.
@@gioponti6359 But that's clearly not true, because everyday you consume multiple items that have been run through double-blind testing; food, drink, and pharmaceuticals being obvious ones, and you consider those tests meaningful (knowingly or not), or you'd not choose the products you do.
It's the very point of double-blind/ABX testing that you (or I) personally are not a meaningful part of the test; it's designed to remove the subjective experience from such testing, because we are all flawed as testers due to all of us having imperfect and easily tricked brains, which are largely making up for gaps in the information received by relatively low fidelity (in the animal kingdom) ears.
Crucially, please remember, that in studios we always use the cheap red/white interconnects that come with our kit, and robust but cost effective cabling to our monitors. So, if cabling impacts sound quality, then the information is already lost at studio source (with the mixdown reflecting this), and no amount of expensive interconnects in the listener's home, nor self-professed 'golden ears', can recreate that information, as it's simply not there. All that can be done (via tone stack etc.) is to colour the sound to a listener's personal taste - a purely subjective matter - but a key aim of a good audio system is to remove imperfections and be as revealing as possible of the source material.
Hahahaha LOL! I Love it when Paul do the "Back in my day!!"
I did find that my Pure Silver Banana Connectors definitely delivered a more robust Bass Response!! On my KLH Kendalls which get respond to a very low 25hz, the difference was astonishing apparent...so I agree with you 100%!!!
Materials make a difference, it would defy the laws of physics if they didn't, most of us just don't have systems that are so fussy that we need to loose sleep over it :).
Quantum Physics? Micro Electronics?
So Paul,
which is better cast or excruciate?
And please feel free to speak your mind ,
That’s what we are here for and it’s wonderful !!!!
Hi,i play electric guitar,and I hear big variation in sound quality using different guitar cables especially copper vs non copper,so I totally agree.same story for my audio gear.cheers.&thanks.
A little over a decade ago I made myself a pair of braided cat4 (I had a lot of cat4 on hand at that time) speaker wires to replace my #12 zip cord. I used 4ea cat4 cables for each speaker wire so each conductor consisted of 16ea #24 solid wires and was roughly equivalent to a #12 wire. It took me the better part of a day to do that and my hands were killing me by the time I was done. I terminated each end in banana plugs.
The next day I tried them out and was surprised to find they sounded "better" than the zip cord did. I've used those cables on two different speakers in my system over that time, a pair of Dynaudio stand mounted monitors (6-1/2 woofer / !" tweeter) and a pair of Chane A5RX towers (3ea 5" woofers, 5" mid, and a folded ribbon high end).
A while back I read something about people having great luck using western electric cloth covered solid conductor(?) twisted pair for speaker wire, this stuff was pretty hard to find and therefore very pricey. The same article mentioned the Japanese were enamored of Belden 9497 twisted pair wire and some of the names bandied about were pretty much respected. After some searching I found you could order the wire from Japan without breaking the bank, I paid $44 for 10m of the wire on Ebay.
I got the wire in 2 weeks and terminated it with banana plugs on each end and installed it between the Chane's and the Musical Fidelity modified Hafler dh220 amp. I sat back and listened to music from my server and some records for over 3 hours, I was pretty amazed at the difference in sound.
What I should do is sit down and ret-erminate those cat4 cables because after giving them a good look I can see some tarnishing of the copper conductors. Had I made those cables 15 tears earlier I would have brought them into work and gold plated the ends of the wires.
I don't really tweak a lot but one thing that did seem to work years ago was weighting down the cheap metal case on my NAD CD player. Modest CD players have a tin cover that must ring like a bell but you have to be careful how much weight you use, if you stack a tuner on top of it that seems fine out if you stack a tuner/casset player/preamp that is to much, It will distort the mechanical alignment and cause mistracking of your cd's. I went all out on that tweak, I cast a 3 pound brick of solder, put some felt on the bottom and laid it on the player, it seemed to make things more stable.
dell177 I think I'm going to make some of those cables. So to confirm, you braided each of the tiny wires together to make one conductor and repeat for the second? Did you twist those 2 together?
Also, when you say #12 zip cord, are you talking about 12 gauge stranded wire that you'd find in regular speaker cables or power cables? I ask so I get a good idea for the size I'm shooting to make.
Usually I don't read long posts because there is typically a lot of useless information, but you had some really good info. Thank you for commenting!
Korcregus The cat4 cables (today I would use cat5e wire) already have 4 twisted pair per cable, I took four lengths of that and twisted them together, some people braid them but I did not. I then stripped the outer cable sheaf about 6" and stripped each conductor about 1-1/4". Then I separated the solid colors from the striped colors and twisted each group (16 #24 wires) resulting in about a #12 wire gauge. I then terminated the ends in a banana plug. I think my problem was the individual #24 wires tarnished over time so I wasn't getting the advantage of all 16 conductors. Plating the ends of them would have worked, absent the ability to plate the wires I'd solder the twisted ends. This is what I followed to make them -
www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/cat5questions_e.html
The #12 zip cord was speaker cable I bought at Radio Shack 20+ years ago. The belden cable I bought from Japan was #16 and it has no problem driving the Chane speakers which are about 90db efficient.
Bang on silver is King and construction does matter... I test cables all day mostly in the microwave range. Audio range is more forgiving but same principals!!
Some education for you...
XLO: copper vs. silver conductors
With the exception of XLO digital/video cables and our least expensive analog cables, XLO cables use laboratory grade copper instead of silver. Why? For the only reason that counts--copper sounds better*.
Silver has slightly less DC resistance compared to copper, and, for this reason, some believe that silver conductors ought to sound better. However, that just isn't the case: music signals are always AC, not DC. As silver has greater self-inductance properties compared to copper, silver conductors will have a much sharper AC resistivity gradient between their center and their surface than copper conductors of the same size. As a result, silver conductor of any size and any length will always have more "skin-effect phase shift" than an identical conductor made of copper. Skin-effect phase shift helps explain a distinctive "shiny", "silvery" sound that is associated with silver conductors and preferred by some over copper.
XLO cables utilize silver conductors in megahertz-range (digital or video) applications, because at these frequencies, the signal is carried at or very near the extreme outer surface of the cable. As a result, skin-effect phase shift is not an issue.
XLO and silver-clad conductors
The depth to which a signal penetrates a conductor is directly related to the frequencies with lower frequencies passing through the entire conductor and higher frequency signals confined to ever-shallower passage as their frequency increases. Mega hertz-range signals, like those for digital and video, travel on or near the very surface of the conductor. By using a precisely calculated thickness of silver cladding over a high-purity copper conductor (so that signals are passing only through the silver cladding), XLO silver-clad cables are able to provide the high frequency advantages of pure silver at a very modest price.
Great, keep on goin Paul!
You can measure the difference in impedance between materials and gauge sizes. I have even heard differences between silver and silver plated speaker cables.
The cable impedance is going to be negligible compared to the speaker. Yes you need the correct guage for the amount of current you're going to send. As for silver wires or plating actually making a positive difference... Blind tests or its a placebo.
Perfect answer. I absolutely concur. Is silver better than copper? That is up to your personal taste. I make extensive use of silver in cables and in signal connection within components. Often I use a 24 gauge silver paired with 20 gauge copper for signal wire. Copper imparts a bit of an edge. In some cases it feels like a warmth that is missing in silver. Silver is just clean and in some cases the copper effect is desirable. BTW, 3 9's silver is available at jewelry supply stores at reasonable prices.
Thats what i go for also. They pair up to give a fuller more dynamic sound.
I got a load of surplus single crystal silver communications cable that they used in russian jet fighters. Its stiff as hell (totally impractical) but sounds so good, and was cheap. I hate that the off the shelf cables are so expensive, and so many are both bad and expensive.
The Star Ferry goes between Tsim Sha Tsui in Kowloon and Central in Hong Kong across Victoria Harbour.
Obviously gold is the best as it has the lowest resistance and doesn’t corrode. Hence, the gold plating on many quality components and connections. Silver is next then copper.
IMO, the most important thing when it comes to connectors is that they have a metal barrel for shielding, good strain relief and low capacitance.
Except for those properties, a good connector is just a good connector.
I just found tips for my Weller soldering gun. I'm getting ready to start working on old tube amps! I don't know if a microscope would even help me see the new surface mount stuff! Lol
No trouble here Paul. It was speaker cable that woke up what I was missing decades ago. AudioQuest made me a believer and I can’t explain that..
I feel your pain in this and yes it’s a heated argument from those who only look at it as this is technically impossible and should be from engineering standpoint!
But things do happen that can clearly be heard and also things where the law of diminishing returns apply.
Interesting. Didn't know PCOCC was cast. Does Wan Lung still do this (sadly Furukawa stopped)?
Paul, do you sell those PS Audio collared shirts?
I love your videos Paul. I used to work in an electronics test lab that worked with military specifications. We did component testing over a large temperature range (-55°C to +125°C). Temperature probes work by a DC voltage being produced from 2 different metals welded together. This voltage changes as the temperature changes. Any DC introduced on your power line can cause the transformer to create noise. I make my own power cables and use copper contact plugs and recepticals with all my stereo gear. Part of the reason why you may hear a difference if you use say a Rodium plug and keep the brass regular outlet, is the DC voltage produced, may create noise in the transformer that makes the system sound different. but is it better? Only you can tell, mayby a combination of gear likes a little DC. This noise may be even worse on cheaper equiptment because of the manufacturer using cheaper transformers that are more susceptable to DC. I use copper connectors because it matches the wire and every dissimilar metal junction, adds to the DC voltage produced. Every connection has 3 junctions. Wire to receptical, receptical to plug, and plug to wire in the power cord then the same at the equiptment. I suspect that brass due to its high copper content may have a negligable effect. A type T temperature probe is made of 2 wires copper, and copper nickel aloy. That junction at room temperature is about 2 milivolts. Theoretically depending on the different metals used, I suspect you could see about 10mv DC getting into the transformer just from dissimalar metals touching.
People want the science, this may be part of the science behind the difference. Just a thought.
Extreme high end speaker cables....the black hole of hi-fi discussions.
Like a black hole, once passed the horizon nothing makes sense and it's as much imagination and hypothesis then established science.
I’m waiting for low propagation inhibiting plastic insulation on the knobs. I’m sure that would make an amazing difference in the sound. Especially if priced at a 75% premium.
I've had a skeptic tell me I was making it up when I told him copper was drawn and annealed. You can't even convince some people on the basics.
Haha. Audio is the only business where the laws of physics either don’t apply or where there are mysteries not yet discovered to explain these amazing effects.
Good discussion! Like someone has already mentioned, wouldn’t variations in sound reproduction be measurable by just swapping the conductors and remeasuring? If the difference is audible to the human ear it would seem it could be easily measured. Kind of an obvious point but the thickness of any plating of the connectors could be a consideration if it is routinely disconnected and reconnected.
Your underestimating the brains processing of it all. I mean we only "see" about (what is it, 5-15%) of what we actually see in terms of photons and input into the receptor cells in the eyes. The brain recreates the rest to fill in the gaps. I think thats what were plugging into with these variations in materials. And its not really measurable yet by current technology.
Yup, Paul you said it. Due to inductance and capacitance cables will sound different. They have no choice but to sound different from each other. Well done sir.
What people forget when it comes to interconnects and cables, is that in the studio we all use the cheap disposable red and white interconnects that come with whatever bit of kit we're buying. We also do not spend on special cables for our monitors, we used good quality cable for durability reasons, but that's as far as it goes. i.e., we've already monitored and done the mixdown to the level of fidelity provided by our cheap but sturdy studio cabling. It gets even more laughable when people talk about 'hi fi quality SATA cables', because again, we just use the cheap crap that comes with the PC/Mac and digital is to a specification anyway, and even the bargain basement digital cables meet that spec. All studios are the same in this, because we're running businesses and seek to eliminate waste.
So if information is lost due to cabling (it's not to a proveable degree, i.e. no ABX test has evidenced this) then it's already lost in the studio and no amount of expenditure by the audio consumer can recreate that notionally lost information.
But fret not, all those amazing records that we all love, were recorded, monitored, and mixed, in studios where in many cases things were connected with any old cheap piece of wire that could simply get the job done in the alloted time slot.
If copper carries 100% current, silver carries 106%. Theory has it that the electricity run along the other side if wire, silver plating the copper will help the current. All metals are of crystal structure. I'm going to assume that the less resistance within the wire the better the current flow, the better the sound because there is less "noise".
I wonder if you could heat up a drawn copper cable to just before it's melting point to change it's structure to that of a cast cable.
Seems like it would be a faster and cheaper way to bridge the difference between the two.
Probably but it wouldn't be as easy as you might think, a lot of precision and timing involved in doing that. And of course the quality of the copper itself wouldn't improve.
Thank you very much for your honest personal opinions sir.
Which is why in my studio as much as possible all devices communicate digitally.
Paul , I do believe Your observation, on cables is correct. In general, Construction, does offer a greater amount of utility towards the alteration of sound, than the Materials themselves. But Yes, It's also the greatest can of worms in the field of Audio. But You needn't take my word for it. Hell, I do believe It was in the early '1980's'; that even the Audio Engineering Society took up the question. It took Six (6) issues of their Journal to cover the topic of "Transmission Lines". My " Old Slot Car Racing Buddy" - Sandy Gross of Golden Ear Technologies ( formerly of Definitive Audio, and Polk, before that; still swears by Polk's old (imported) "cobra cable" Speaker Wire. It was a exotic weave arrangement (high in capacitance). It did wonders to enhance High End definition, in particular. But It also fried quite a few Amplifiers, that didn't like the load It presented ! Furthermore, It's my understanding, that Sandy is still using a High Capacitance Wire to his Folded Ribbon Tweeters. And some people want to know, What's my fascination with the reproduction of Music and Sound ??? btw - I worked for a short time with Mel Schilling in Woodland Hills, CA. Shortly after Arnie Nudell, convinced Him to move from the Philly area. All that, plus a Cast of Characters to include Richard B. and John Iverson. In the early 80's, I also worked for one of your dealers in NYC … East 8th St. in the Village.. over Pat Field's avant-garde Clothing Boutique (Her 'B & D ' themed window displays caused many a Traffic accident in front of our store !) - The Electronic Workshop (Len Chase & Bill Winkler). Talk about a "misspent youth" ! ;)
I'm assuming bga soldering? Ball grid array?
It’s nice to hear a frankly unbiased opinion. I agree that cables sound different. I had a great example of that with a 1600 dollar speaker . The difference they made was dramatic. A lot of the so called experts never talk about drawn cables changing the granular structure of cables.
Non-power-handling audio cable electrical properties only make a perceptible difference when they're long enough to act as transmission lines, generally 50 -100 feet or more. In those cases impedance matching becomes significant. For short runs, unoxidized conductor metal type only makes a difference in power applications, e.g. loudspeaker or AC power cables. To minimize power loss, you just want as thick a conductor as practical.
By far the most significant issue with low-level audio cables is how much microphonics they have. Microphonics are caused by friction between cable conductors and shields, and sound like short bursts of static. You can test your cables for microphonics by connecting them to a low-level input in a stereo system or instrument amp. Turn the volume
all the way up, and crack the cable like it was a whip. If you hear any static at all, trash that cable and get a new one.
Lish Lash You might want to confirm those distances. At audio frequencies, the cable becomes a transmission line at distances much farther than 50 to 100 ft...
Hi Paul, Thank you for your response. I think the place you're trying to mention is Wan Chai.Anyway, are you coming to the AV Show in Hong Kong this summer? Hope to see you again.
so what are the differences construction makes?
every different cable i have put in my system have sounded differently. And I have only used copper cables.
Silver sounds different to copper if (and only if) you can consistently pick it out on a blind test. Period.
High sensitivity tweeters clearly pick up cable differences, i know cause ive heard it, same goes for headphones, shit headphone cables result in shit sound.
Was it a blind test?
N Gauge England -Synthematix- placebo
@@Synthematix Post a blind test video to prove it.
@@gdevelek I know that your question is old, but I think your question is really important and maybe do other ask the same question.
A "blind" test is when the tester do not know if it's the tested or an other that are used at the moment. in this case an audio cable. In this case would the listener be asked to listen for differences between the two cables, not knowing if it's one cable or the other. A person do the switching, i.e. cable A and B could be switched like this (A,A,B,A,B,B,B,A,B) if the listener can identify the cable that are connected and do it fairly consistent and, more important, nearly correct every time, there are a difference.
There can be a small problem by only using blind test, because maybe do the person who switches, change tone in voice, expression or something else, that unknown to both, maybe can influence the result. That's why "Double blinded test" is mostly used. It's where neither the test person nor the switcher, knows what cable is connected at the moment.
A funny but real story where a blind test (not double blind) showed it's flaws where when a man did find out his horse could calculate simple numbers. He traveled to all sort of places with his horse and without any cheat of any kind, did the horse calculate correctly. The owner did simply ask the horse, "what is 3 + 4?" and the horse stomped the ground 7 times with one hove. Some scientists try to investigate and found no cheating of any kind at all, but when the owner did hide behind a board so the horse could not see him, the horse lost it's ability to calculate. In the end did they found out that the horse did not calculate but did only look at the owner. The horse kept stomping until the owner smiled, being happy that the horse, again, had given the right result.
I'm a senior university student in Engineering and believe that materials are superior than construction and hope to prove this (on my channel, or research paper) over the next few months trying all sorts of exotic metal cable wires, including but not limited to: -> Palladium, Titanium, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Rhodium, Zirconium, Ytterbium.
I have the samples of these elements; now I just need to make the wire, and get a good setup to run the test.
I would agree construction is most important, but I’m surprised there was no mention of Young’s modulus or anything about longevity/durability.
i listen to radio/computer on my mp3 player, would a gold-plated non-shielded aux cable make a diffrence?
Hong Kong is awesome! I went there last year with my family. We live in Japan so not too far. The light show over Victoria Bay is amazing! They have a great sound system for that too!
Howdy. In my mind.
Silver plating reduces the AC resistance. The higher the frequency the more the current will congest towards the surface thus escaping Eddy currents in the copper core.
I would also assume the inductance and capacitance are not constant. I believe they depend on the frequency. Thus the reactances may be quadratically ( or some other power ) a function of the frequency. Not only linearily a function.
Regards.
Paul mentions construction of the cable makes a bigger difference but surely that includes the way the conductor is manufactured. I have a pair of Robert Lumely Solid silver speaker cables that are not drawn or extruded the manufactured using a continuous cast method which means the crystaline stucture is consistent throughout the length of the cable. I let a friend borrow them and put up against a £2k, 2 metre pair of Van den Hul, and he found the difference was night and day better with the Lumley solid silver. I love them so much I wouldn't ever part with them and would put them up against any so called exotica.
Love the Star Ferry.
I also love silver interconnects. Coincidence?
XLO: copper vs. silver conductors
With the exception of XLO digital/video cables and our least expensive analog cables, XLO cables use laboratory grade copper instead of silver. Why? For the only reason that counts--copper sounds better*.
Silver has slightly less DC resistance compared to copper, and, for this reason, some believe that silver conductors ought to sound better. However, that just isn't the case: music signals are always AC, not DC. As silver has greater self-inductance properties compared to copper, silver conductors will have a much sharper AC resistivity gradient between their center and their surface than copper conductors of the same size. As a result, silver conductor of any size and any length will always have more "skin-effect phase shift" than an identical conductor made of copper. Skin-effect phase shift helps explain a distinctive "shiny", "silvery" sound that is associated with silver conductors and preferred by some over copper.
XLO cables utilize silver conductors in megahertz-range (digital or video) applications, because at these frequencies, the signal is carried at or very near the extreme outer surface of the cable. As a result, skin-effect phase shift is not an issue.
XLO and silver-clad conductors
The depth to which a signal penetrates a conductor is directly related to the frequencies with lower frequencies passing through the entire conductor and higher frequency signals confined to ever-shallower passage as their frequency increases. Mega hertz-range signals, like those for digital and video, travel on or near the very surface of the conductor. By using a precisely calculated thickness of silver cladding over a high-purity copper conductor (so that signals are passing only through the silver cladding), XLO silver-clad cables are able to provide the high frequency advantages of pure silver at a very modest price.
So was there recommendation? If so I missed it.
From what I've heard the conductivity of silver wire is a very small level beyond that of copper. Anyhow, it goes with the listener's preference, I suppose.
Hi, If copper doesn't sound well then why the printed circuit boards of the audio stuff are made of copper conductor traces? Doesn't the "audio industry" think it should be altered to a more potent metal? Are there any plans for that or we just have live with the crap of copper in every audio equipment's core electronics and improve what we can do with silver cables externally?
Because it's all bollocks.
@@OhFishyFish so true👍
No one said copper doesnt sound well.
@@nox1cous654 There should be a trend that copper sounds better than silver and gold.
Indeed, the Star Ferry alone is worth the 12 hour flight! And there is a lot more to see and do in Hong Kong.
My extensive testing of both speaker wire and interconnect cables provides me clear evidence that material type really does matter. Such differences are small but definitely sonically apparent.
Did you ABX test, or did you allow confirmation and expectation bias and placebo effect to make up your mind?
I am betting on his spending decades with his hobby and his passion to find his opinion, verses a Phd in reverse osmosis psychology.
Not sure if ABX test proves anything. IMO, the only way to test affect of cables is to measure speaker output in an anechoic chamber using reference gears to see if cables change speaker output measurements.
Thats why headphone cable is very specialized, yup its all true.
I think the issue here is that most people chiming in on this subject don't have high resolving systems
Electronics education does not explain 'material sound' (sound signature) which can not be measured with anything else in the ear and brain.
But Electronics education allows you to conclude the above with great certainty.
HiFi consists of precision and sound.
Precision can be explained and measured.
Sound can only be selected and judged by ear and brain.
My 30 years of experience in a few lines that appear to be identical to Poul's Experiences.
Precisely this is also the cause of perpetual debate.
Thanks for your always non-radicalizing and honest videos Poul.
I sure wish claims of sound difference of audio equipment and components were backed up with level matched double blind testing. There are facts and there are opinions, and if a person can't tell a statistical significant difference using such testing, then the perceived difference is just human emotional opinion, not provable fact. An electrical engineer, at least one not selling audio equipment, would agree that such testing far surpases human opinion.
Lawrence L truth is there is nothing to the "audiophiles", beyond a few hundred or thousand dollars, electronics make no difference; there is nothing to speakers, a fancy looking box with drivers inside
Comparing a portable radio and a PA system for a live music venue quickly proves there are differences. Cabinet design affects frequency response, power input and the power handling ability of the speaker affects the amount of air moved as well as the frequency. The Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook has several chapters on the subject and some of the best detail I have seen. (ISBN #0-88188-900-8 for anyone who is interested in the subject)
I suspect it is more important to match the amplifier output to the speakers power handling ability than to have any particular design of speaker and would agree if that’s what you were getting at.
I do normally say that if you can here a difference and you think it's a better sound, then go for it, if you can't, then why waste money? It's the same, if you can't here difference between a clock radio and a PS Audio, then go for the clock radio. But just because you can or can't here a difference does not mean that you are right, it just mean that you know what to go for.
Is pcocc copper harder to break by bending?
Why would you get in trouble for speaking your truth from your years of experience?! We appreciate you. By the way, i never miss the star ferry trip from Kowloon to Central every time i visit Hong Kong either 😊 have a long life Sir!
What about when a regular 2-wire speaker cable that has one wire copper and the other one is silver? I have a set of speaker wires like that. And does it matter which pos/neg terminal you use for copper vs silver?
Are you sure your other cable is silver? Silver is 100 times or more expensive than copper by weight.
I love my silver conductors Paul. My balanced interconnects and speaker cables are now 4 nines silver. What a difference. I was always missing that last bit of high end and harmonics. The silver did it. I did have 6 nine copper, but no comparison. That is to my ears, and I have been making and listening to music a long time. It was surprising that it took the silver conductors to make the difference I have been waiting for. When you are matching an audiophile system, you are tuning a system with components. There are no tone controls, so you will use cables, amp and speakers to tune your system. For mine it was the clear, higher end frequency of the silver conductors. Thanks Paul for your topics. For people with bright systems, you would check out different copper conductors. Gary
Gary Thompson idiot
Gary Thompson the ”difference” is imagined
One of the things which can affect the sound is the type of insulation material; PVC is audibly inferior to say Teflon especially in speaker cables where there are high currents involved.The reason is dialectric absorbtion and dissipation is much higher in PVC than Teflon resulting in a smearing and softening of the sound.
BTW...I was taught that Silver is the BEST conductor!
Certain supercooled ceramics are better... All you need is some liquid nitrogen.
Connectors make a huge difference.. I replaced standard RCA connectors with WBT RCA connectors... gigantic difference...less glassy and hard sounding, .... their technical literature claims... there connectors have no Eddy currents and I believe it...based on my listening tests...I would do a double blind test ...I believe I could instantly hear the difference between the two
Please can you do that then come back with the results 👍
If it sounds good, it is good.
They do make a difference as I clearly heard a huge difference from a copper OCC IEM cable and a 8 braided silver plated OCC IEM cable.
What was the difference you heard? Which sounded better?
@@wa2368
Well, with 8-Braided IEM cables, they have a change in impedance compared to the standard 4 strand cables, which in my opinion give more dynamic range to IEMs as the volume is quieter, plus the soundstage had more width and depth. It's more about the nature of the 8-braid vs the 4-braid not so much the materials.
EVERYTHING MATTERS! DUH!!!
Just this morning I took two mullard 12ax7s out my preamp and replaced them with rca’s and the system opened up beautifully!!!
really? i think i'll try RCA tubes, which RCA version/ series?
Pure silver treble sounds perfect.
Silver plated copper sounds bright and a bit distorted.
Copper sounds dead, not transparent and dirty.
I use oil filled silver RCA wire and a 16 gauge silver speaker wire wrapped in an eight gauge teflon tubing that sounds very open.
I also found affordable pure silver power cables.
I think a blind test with only one cable is useless.
Try switching all the cables and you’ll know there will be a difference.
So much so, a blind test will take a lot of time. Too much time for my liking.
Beware of shinny gold plated connectors: 1) manufactures will first nickel plate the base metal. 2) this will allow for a nice shinny smooth gold plate. 3) and they can use a very thin gold plate because gold cost money. Now you are listening sound through the base metal, the nickel and the gold.
Should just name this channel Wrong Audio
You are thinking of Wan Chai Area, and it IS fantastic!
It's Tsim Sha Tsui star ferry pier at Kowloon side to Central ferry pier at Hong Kong island. Please come next year Hong Kong Hi Fi show.
Well, I have a suggestion for Paul. Take a silver cable and a copper cable with the same impedance (should be easy to match starting with cables that have a very similar impedance, by cutting them to the necessary length), send an audio signal through them, and record it. Then use audio diffmaker to null the two recordings. Is there anything left above the noise floor?
Plenty of people who say they can't hear a difference are willing to do such a test. Why is it impossible to find someone who claims they can hear a difference who will actually do such a simple practical test, that will give you an audio file you can listen to that only contains the difference between the cables?
If there is nothing left to measure, then we can skip all debate over whether there are things that are audible that can't be measured. I mean, where do you go after that? Can you argue that if the audio signal is identical right down to the noise floor of the system after passing through either cable, that it is still somehow possible for them to sound different because of the materials they went through?
Just simple "Skin Effect" can answer that. With the measurable and audible differences you seek. Never mind the material.
@@SDMasterYoda
I don't believe ELECTRICITY works any different because of frequency.
Or your choice of music 😂
@@SDMasterYoda
Blah blah.
Do I have to cut-n-paste a dozen other opinions too? Enjoy
For people that can't afford really expensive cables, buy short ones and just add some cheap cables to create the length you want. That's what expensive cables already do because you don't find that expensive cables from the connectors on the speakers going to the crossovers.
In audio it sometimes doesn't matter what's inside the boxes, just what's outside of them.
Would you say that materials in cables matter with respect to the insulating jackets and the resulting noise floor within the cable?
I agree with both of your opinions about Star Ferry and cables.
Appreciations from Hongkong. Please keep on the best works!👍
5:34 - He is referring to Ohno Continuous Cast copper, which creates a singular “crystal”. However, from electronics 101 we know that the cable creates an electron “train”. When you push one electron down the cable, it pushes the last electron out the cable. So “all the barriers” don’t matter.
The electron train analogy you studied at primary school was just an analogy for you to understand the concept of an electrical current.
Amount electrons in both materials at in the atoms I gest
4:35 pure silver cables (99.9%) do not sound bright/harsh, what you’re describing here are cables with a silver/copper alloy touted as ‘silver cables’. Aside from cost, the bigger issue with silver is the greater oxidation potential compared to copper i.e. faster wiring degradation over time.
I’ve been using a Topping dac as a preamp to a pair of powered speakers. Tried a set of Topping’s interconnects that claim mono crystal copper. I had previously tried 3 different interconnects, each having different results. The mono crystal wire seemed quieter if that’s possible because each set of wires I tried were differently configured. The lack of “noise” wasn’t from cracking or popping but rather like being like in a quieter room where notes were able to finish playing. I don’t know exactly why connectors and cables exhibit these characteristics but they do. Instead of refusing the possibilities just try sampling a few. May not be better but should be different. Another thing to try, use a good contact cleaner and start with the line cables. Any changes should be inaudible but are they? Don’t believe everything you are told.
A good song coming out of a junk system is better than a junk song coming out of a good system. As I get older I can't hear the delicate highs any more and it makes me sad but do I stop listening? HELL NO!
If u really still don't understand why different conductors will not sound the same, just use the analogy of light.
Light is a magnetic propagation like electricity is. Let light go through different type of glass, with different additives, and u will see at least some differences with colors balance or even heavy colorations. These color differences are an analogy of the differences u will hear through a cable with different materials. Simple as that.
Even use the same glass and look through different thickness of this glass, and u'll see things becoming less contrasted and greener with usual glass when it gets thicker.
Imagine the same with cable length.
Sort of along the same lines, are gold plated copper binding posts preferable to the more common and cheaper gold plated brass? It seems that inserting a brass binding post in the middle of an all copper cable run between the amp and speaker drivers would result in a conductivity bottleneck of sorts.
Using brass is fine as long as its cross sectional area compensates for its extra electrical resistance.
Hawkfum O'Dee Thanks so much for your reply! It sounds an awful lot like wisdom without the gag-inducing marketing voodoo so prevalent in audio circles.
Hi Woofy. Not sure if it's wisdom but as far as transferring current is concerned that defeats the bottleneck you instinctively picked up on :).
I had an interesting experience over the last few months that might help how you see the debate :), it has certainly influenced me.
My system at the turn of the year.
Alphason Sonata/HRS100MCS/AT-OC7 - TT/Arm/Cart
Transcriprors Hydraulic Ref/SME3009sII/Ortofon 2M Blue - TT/Arm/Cart (Rather heavily modified)
Roksan Xexes/Linn Ekos/AT-OC7 - TT/Arm/Cart
Project Phonobox 2 - Phono Stage
Audiolab 8000Q - Pre-amplifier
Audiolab 8000P - Power Amp (Runs the HF)
Audiolab 8000M x 2 - Power Amp's (Driving the LF, one per side)
Tannoy DC3000's/ 6 metre runs of Linn LK20 - Speakers in the living room
TDL RTL2's/ 6 metre runs of QED Silver something - Speakers in the man cave
A modest system by some standards, exorbitant by others it is extremely revealing, good recordings sound fantastic but it tolerates poor recordings pretty well, especially when using the Alphason which is head and shoulders the best sounding turntable of the three. What may surprise you is that the old Transcriptors with a DC motor (Origin Live) is preferred to the rather enigmatic Roksan, possibly the Ekos was not a good match, I was given the deck with the arm fitted so it is what it is.
Anyhoo, I was given a surprise bonus at the end of last year that my beloved wife insisted I invest in my hi fi ;), I decided that good value as it was that the Phonobox 2 was the weak link so I looked for a new phono Amp on E Bay.
I was tempted by a Musical Fidelity M1-LPS, I figured Musical Fidelity, unlikely to be a mare and so I purchased it for a price that seemed quite reasonable given that it was in absolutely mint condition.
Upon arrival I hooked it up to my system, popped some Ozric Tentacles on the Transcriptors and unleashed the loud lever ...
I got a wee bit of a surprise, although the bass and lower mid-range were amazing something was missing, the top end.
It soon became obvious that it was only the MM cartridge that sounded dull, both the MC's sounded fantastic, so why did the MM sound dull? Capacitance?
The Project PB2 had an MM loading of 100pf, the M1-LPS only 50pf.
The 2M Blue wants to see 150pf or more to sound balanced, the arm cabling provides about 10pf, the M1 50pf = 60pf, I realised that the low cap cable I was using tween the SME and the M1 was now dulling the treble in a way it had never done before.
So I disconnected the 0.5m low cap Ixos cables I was using and inserted some 1m cables I made up myself many years ago using RS components 75 ohm co-axial.
Bingo, there was the treble again, the Ortofon 2M had come to life and how.
Oddly I would have expected the sound to have been painfully bright with the very low cap cable so I did some research and it all gets awfully complicated, mid range suck out, mid range emphasis, treble all messed up, all caused by small differences in capacitance.
The difference between the expensive Ixos and the cheap RS cable was not subtle, it was night and day, this for a difference in value of approx 50pf?
So can we hear differences in cables, oh yes, big time, is it down to the quasicryogenicallychemicallycastratedsupercoppercable? the prollypollypropelyne sheathing?
I think not, most of the time those small differences are due to cable capacitance.
I look forwards to somebody explaining how totally wrong I am :).
Best regards
Hi Woofy, not sure about wisdom but dead crafty :).
In case you're interested in this sort of thing here's a not so fascinating story.
At the end of last year my lovely wife insisted that I spend my annual bonus on my hi fi :).
I have three good quality turntables, in order of sonic preference..
Alphason Sonata/HRS100MCS/AT-OC7
Transcriptors Hydraulic Reference (Origin Live DC motor)/SME3009s2i/2M Blue
Roksan Xerxes/Linn Ekos/AT-OC7
They were running into an Audiolab 8000Q pre amp via a Project Box II phono amp.
Given that my speakers are already Audiolab tri-amped no prizes for guessing what the weak link was :).
So onto E Bay where I picked up a mint condition Musical Fidelity M1-LPS, it arrived, I plugged it in and got quite a surprise.
With the two MC carts the sound was transformed but with the MM, no treble, the moving Magnet sounded much better using the Project.
A quick spec check yielded a possible culprit, MM input capacitance on the Project 100pf
On the M1-LPS, 50pf.
So it seemed my missing 50pf was having a devastating effect, the 2M Blue wants to see at least 150pf so I had to do a bit of thinking.
My solution was to swap the expensive 0.80m long Ixos cables currently fitted to the SME to a pair of 1.0m long home made leads I had knocking around, result, I had all the treble back and then some, the 2m Blue is an amazing cartridge when correctly loaded, in my case I like about 175pf.
This got me to wondering if the differences between cables are not due to Threedimensiolalquasitrigometric weaves, nor Hypermonotopubic copper made from the pubic hairs of ginger virgins, nor the Cryptopolymorphic insulation, but simple capacitance & resistance. That is how tone controls work after all.
I look forwards to being told I am completely wrong but did you ever have the feeling somebody it peeing up your back and telling you it's raining :).
All the best