Agreed, some sources or recordings sound very open while others reveal the speaker-placement. It is what is is. Don't forget to enjoy the music either way
Paul you nailed it. Thanks! Great to hear wisdom from someone who actually records and mixes real sound. Even surround sound is in the mix. Good video.
Thanks again Paul. I think it shows that once you have trust in your system. Once you do, then you can sort out the good recordings from the poor ones. If you are constantly doubting your system every time you hear a poor recording, then it will drive you crazy. Find real audiophile tracks to test with, get them sounding the best your room and system setup allows, then be satisfied.
Setup and room tuning are definitely the keys to a truly great system. The gear is the fun and exciting part, but is maybe 10% of what actually matters (assuming you've already invested at least a little bit there). All the money on earth won't change things as much as spending an hour fiddling with speaker placement can.
Excellent insight as always, thank you. It's an issue I've often noticed myself with kits and indeed other instruments being so 'close mic'd ' in the recording. I worked in various recording studios in London 40 years ago and much as I prefered microphones being much further away so that all the mic's caught all the sound, everyone wanted close microphones. The concerns of this audiophile did not matter a jot, and the customer (the musicians) always got what they wanted!
Most of the time in bigger studios the customer is not the musicians but the producer. And he or she is responsible for the implementation of the label's specifications.
Setup is so good and important that that is what got me into speakers and hifi... through some 4 dlrs 2 inch speakers. Those were truly the best experience I ever had hearing speakers just because I had learned about positioning and managed to get a wide soundstage, something I had never heard before. They had no bass or midrange, and had to equalize them heavily to make them sound good in music, but the wide soundstage (and pinpoint location of the sounds) was something that totally altered my perception of music, I just never thought possible to have that 3D effect with 2 speakers on almost anything I listen to. To this day it is still the thing I focus the most on achieving
Paul, I once compared in a showroom sound of two speaker pairs from different manufacturers with the same recording. And the difference was very apparent. One pair just disappeared, but the second sounded like two distinct separate sources of sounds.
I have sound pretty much everywhere where I want it. I don't class certain sounds/instruments coming from the speakers as bad. I actually quite like it.
I have some similar experience as the described in the question - turned out to be an first reflection point issue. It was just a few sounds here and there in the low highs that jumped out, I guess at some specific frequencies. I put some absorption panels left and right and problem gone. Maybe diffusors would be a better option but that's what I had available. I'm really happy with the result. Also, when an instrument is hard panned to one side, it also jumps out of the speaker and the soundstage illusion is ruined. That is just a mix decision and it's nothing you can do about it.
Any decently built speakers should disappear when listened to at equidistant from the two speakers and when the speakers have a slim baffle relative to the woofers. My speakers have always disappeared even when they sounded like crap before modifications. The 5% of content that comes from the speakers still doesn't come from the speakers drivers but the speakers appear to be in front of the sound source. What separates budget speakers from high-end speakers is the speaker's tone, dynamics, separation of instruments, layering of the sound stage, and size and depth of the soundstage.
Funny you should talk about this today. I've noticed this effect at rock gigs. When the mic is a couple of feet away from the cymbals they sound much much better than close mic'd. To my ears, the close mic'd cymbals overpower the vocals sometimes. Something I've noticed though is that it tends to be the 'younger' bands that closemic. the likes of Uriah Heep, Thunder, Michael Schenker and more who have been 'round the block' a few times seem to have it sussed.
I just made my way through some TLDR-bait, a white paper “Room Acoustics, Psychoacoustics and TCA-M Design Concepts” from Treble Clef Audio that has a nice review of the current psychoacoustic science and provides several additional possible explanations of why the initial transient might be heard from the speaker while the speaker then disappears with subsequent sound. Even if you have no interest in their speakers, the white paper is an interesting read.
Most signals not in the recording, but generated by the equipment (usually a source component), tend to move within the sound stage towards one of the speakers, and at worst, appear to come directly from a speaker. This most commonly occurs with dynamic strikes from pianos, violins, close miked voices etc.. I used to think that during recording sessions, the sudden increase in volume of an instrument would extend to other microphones, resulting in apparent movement of the image. However in my case it was always towards the left speaker and was unlikely to be the recording. Once you solve resonance defects with better equipment and stands, hearing anything directly from the speakers becomes very rare.
You will notice that clicks and pops from a turntable or CD reading errors virtually alwaya appear directly from a speaker. They were never part of the mastering and mixing process.
Liking the chronology of the Aspen speakers. I guestimate you have the Aspens setup 8-9 feet apart and 9-10 feet from the chair? I had my Paradigms at 11 feet apart and the midrange was thin. Moved them to 8 feet and still 12 feet from the chair and the midrange sounds so much better. i think this is a placement factor that a lot of people overlook. imho of course.
Is it just me or has Paul's advice in his videos recently become more plausible, more open, free and confident? It's ok if everybody says "It's just you", as I'm just stating my own observation.
If you are a person who wants/have 4 towers and 2 subs in the front. Two towers and two subs in the rear. I'm unsure how you're going to apply his advice
if a speaker has to be adjusted just right before it produces good sound, then it is not a good speaker if you ask me. A speaker should give good sound when you are sitting right in front of it and allow you to move slightly left and right without the sound changing much
@@0M9H4X_Neckbeard Have you heard about omnidirectional speaker MBL 101 X-treme ? Do a google search. Yes, it is extremely expensive to buy. But with this speaker, you can move wherever you want in the room without the sound changing!! I have listened to this speaker once But when it comes to regular speakers, you're right. But some speakers spread less well to the side and others more to the side. so it is possible to make speakers that spread the sound relatively well to the side. Of course, there are limits to how much you can go to the side before a speaker no longer produces good sound. if you try to reproduce frequencies that have a much shorter wavelength than the elements themselves are wide, you get a slightly directional sound, especially in the brighter frequency.
Here's what makes me laugh - It wasn't too long ago that these guys built a room and experimented with corner helmholtz absorbers and got it wrong. Fast forward and this guy's writing a book and delving out advice. Be humble. Learn. Don't act like you know when you don't, you're clearly still learning still like us all. ;-)
Sorry... But Not all speakers are capable of "Vanishing", no matter how good you set them up. Ive owned like 30 different speakers, before I got a pair of EPI 100v audiophile grade speakers, that actually Vanish into the room. And the thing is.. the EPI's dont need any special "Setup". In fact, they sound best, when placed closest to a wall. Height doesnt matter (they sound better on the floor... and since they are small, they are not at ear level.. but you cant detect that, either). They defy every supposed Rule... and still put out one of the Largest 3d Holographic sound-fields, you have ever heard. The thing is... not all Tweeters are Equal. And if the tweeters are in a Horn... that makes them even more likely, to be presenting a Distorted "3D Image". Now... some things that Might be a factor... is a bad / poor crossover, and or bad (out of spec) component on the crossover. What you can try to do, is use an EQ to reduce the treble maximums, to see if you can tame any "Hotness" spikes. In addition to my EPI's... I also have a mini stereo system, that has a built in 50 cd changer. Its a sony system, with semi-decent sounding speakers. I ran my PCs audio through it, for a while... and found that the tweeters and mids, became way too hot... depending on what I was playing through them. Using software EQ, I was able to dial down the frequencies... and get them to sound decent... no matter what I was playing. They are still no match against the EPI's... but the software EQ made them "Acceptably Decent", for what they are. Im guessing that with better crossover components... it might make them much better... But they are not worth the time nor investment... as they are just dirt cheap, mass manufactured, cheap speakers.
Agreed, some sources or recordings sound very open while others reveal the speaker-placement. It is what is is. Don't forget to enjoy the music either way
Paul you nailed it. Thanks! Great to hear wisdom from someone who actually records and mixes real sound. Even surround sound is in the mix. Good video.
Just like setting up a audio playback system it's very important the recording session is set up well.
Another great talk, please keep it up
Thanks again Paul. I think it shows that once you have trust in your system. Once you do, then you can sort out the good recordings from the poor ones. If you are constantly doubting your system every time you hear a poor recording, then it will drive you crazy. Find real audiophile tracks to test with, get them sounding the best your room and system setup allows, then be satisfied.
Setup and room tuning are definitely the keys to a truly great system. The gear is the fun and exciting part, but is maybe 10% of what actually matters (assuming you've already invested at least a little bit there). All the money on earth won't change things as much as spending an hour fiddling with speaker placement can.
10% 😅😅😅
Great explanation. Now I understand.
Excellent Answer...Thx Paul Sir
PAUL I TOTALLY AGREE!! RIGHT ON!!!🥁🥁🧬✌️🇺🇲✊✌️✨
Excellent insight as always, thank you.
It's an issue I've often noticed myself with kits and indeed other instruments being so 'close mic'd ' in the recording. I worked in various recording studios in London 40 years ago and much as I prefered microphones being much further away so that all the mic's caught all the sound, everyone wanted close microphones. The concerns of this audiophile did not matter a jot, and the customer (the musicians) always got what they wanted!
Most of the time in bigger studios the customer is not the musicians but the producer. And he or she is responsible for the implementation of the label's specifications.
Blabla
Very good point and cheers from Brasil!!
Sticks and strings also sound outside in well mixed live shows. They do because they should.
Setup is so good and important that that is what got me into speakers and hifi... through some 4 dlrs 2 inch speakers. Those were truly the best experience I ever had hearing speakers just because I had learned about positioning and managed to get a wide soundstage, something I had never heard before. They had no bass or midrange, and had to equalize them heavily to make them sound good in music, but the wide soundstage (and pinpoint location of the sounds) was something that totally altered my perception of music, I just never thought possible to have that 3D effect with 2 speakers on almost anything I listen to.
To this day it is still the thing I focus the most on achieving
Very good points ❤❤❤
Paul, I once compared in a showroom sound of two speaker pairs from different manufacturers with the same recording. And the difference was very apparent. One pair just disappeared, but the second sounded like two distinct separate sources of sounds.
I have sound pretty much everywhere where I want it. I don't class certain sounds/instruments coming from the speakers as bad. I actually quite like it.
I have some similar experience as the described in the question - turned out to be an first reflection point issue. It was just a few sounds here and there in the low highs that jumped out, I guess at some specific frequencies. I put some absorption panels left and right and problem gone. Maybe diffusors would be a better option but that's what I had available. I'm really happy with the result.
Also, when an instrument is hard panned to one side, it also jumps out of the speaker and the soundstage illusion is ruined. That is just a mix decision and it's nothing you can do about it.
Any decently built speakers should disappear when listened to at equidistant from the two speakers and when the speakers have a slim baffle relative to the woofers. My speakers have always disappeared even when they sounded like crap before modifications. The 5% of content that comes from the speakers still doesn't come from the speakers drivers but the speakers appear to be in front of the sound source. What separates budget speakers from high-end speakers is the speaker's tone, dynamics, separation of instruments, layering of the sound stage, and size and depth of the soundstage.
I miss the sound of the speakers voiced by Arnie. Does not go out of my head!
Funny you should talk about this today. I've noticed this effect at rock gigs. When the mic is a couple of feet away from the cymbals they sound much much better than close mic'd. To my ears, the close mic'd cymbals overpower the vocals sometimes. Something I've noticed though is that it tends to be the 'younger' bands that closemic. the likes of Uriah Heep, Thunder, Michael Schenker and more who have been 'round the block' a few times seem to have it sussed.
Ahhh! I was wondering about this! Thanks
Own dipoles, tuning is everything
Listen to room reflections 😮
I just made my way through some TLDR-bait, a white paper “Room Acoustics, Psychoacoustics and TCA-M Design Concepts” from Treble Clef Audio that has a nice review of the current psychoacoustic science and provides several additional possible explanations of why the initial transient might be heard from the speaker while the speaker then disappears with subsequent sound. Even if you have no interest in their speakers, the white paper is an interesting read.
Those are some great books!
Kindly make a video on ribbon speakers as to why they are not as popular as they could've been, thanks.
Setup for home or aftermarket car audio systems is crucial.
Plug n Play is for simple applications.
Hi Paul… are your recordings available in hi res on Qobuz?
Most signals not in the recording, but generated by the equipment (usually a source component), tend to move within the sound stage towards one of the speakers, and at worst, appear to come directly from a speaker. This most commonly occurs with dynamic strikes from pianos, violins, close miked voices etc.. I used to think that during recording sessions, the sudden increase in volume of an instrument would extend to other microphones, resulting in apparent movement of the image. However in my case it was always towards the left speaker and was unlikely to be the recording. Once you solve resonance defects with better equipment and stands, hearing anything directly from the speakers becomes very rare.
You will notice that clicks and pops from a turntable or CD reading errors virtually alwaya appear directly from a speaker. They were never part of the mastering and mixing process.
No amount of setup will fix a poor recording.
True but your always get one that will say everything sounds great on their system
Liking the chronology of the Aspen speakers. I guestimate you have the Aspens setup 8-9 feet apart and 9-10 feet from the chair? I had my Paradigms at 11 feet apart and the midrange was thin. Moved them to 8 feet and still 12 feet from the chair and the midrange sounds so much better. i think this is a placement factor that a lot of people overlook. imho of course.
Thanks Paul for another explanation of information I’ve been wondering about. Question for you, when will the Perfect Wave phono preamp be released? ❤
That would also explain why some samples I use in my mixes do the same thing. Thanks.
Easy to change. Just add some room reverb to the samples and reduce the direct level.
Speaker 🔈 Placement is
Critical for Optimum
Sound Displacement…..
Stanley Goldstein
1969 Wood Stock
My Martin Logan Renaissance ESL 15A speakers ALWAYS disappear. Stats for the win!
What is a sound system?
Because a lot of them are too big to carry out of the room?
Is it just me or has Paul's advice in his videos recently become more plausible, more open, free and confident? It's ok if everybody says "It's just you", as I'm just stating my own observation.
If you are a person who wants/have 4 towers and 2 subs in the front. Two towers and two subs in the rear. I'm unsure how you're going to apply his advice
what type of subwoofers is the one sitting against the wall.
A REL sub
If you shut your eyes they do
cool
I've had a few speakers disappear, I succeed in taking out the voice coil, then nothing
Acoustics, cables and components all matter for disappearing speakers
The number of beaucoup bucks systems that have NO setup recommendations implemented is criminal.
Sigh, as always, you can't fix bad recording techniques.
if a speaker has to be adjusted just right before it produces good sound, then it is not a good speaker if you ask me. A speaker should give good sound when you are sitting right in front of it and allow you to move slightly left and right without the sound changing much
That's just not how soundwaves work though, so that speaker doesn't exist.
@@0M9H4X_Neckbeard
Have you heard about
omnidirectional speaker
MBL 101 X-treme ? Do a google search. Yes, it is extremely expensive to buy. But with this speaker, you can move wherever you want in the room without the sound changing!! I have listened to this speaker once
But when it comes to regular speakers, you're right. But some speakers spread less well to the side and others more to the side.
so it is possible to make speakers that spread the sound relatively well to the side. Of course, there are limits to how much you can go to the side before a speaker no longer produces good sound.
if you try to reproduce frequencies that have a much shorter wavelength than the elements themselves are wide, you get a slightly directional sound, especially in the brighter frequency.
405th!
😅
The recording/the recording/the recording - If it sounds like you are listening through a closed door the result is disappointment.
A: because you're poor
Here's what makes me laugh - It wasn't too long ago that these guys built a room and experimented with corner helmholtz absorbers and got it wrong. Fast forward and this guy's writing a book and delving out advice. Be humble. Learn. Don't act like you know when you don't, you're clearly still learning still like us all. ;-)
Sorry... But Not all speakers are capable of "Vanishing", no matter how good you set them up. Ive owned like 30 different speakers, before I got a pair of EPI 100v audiophile grade speakers, that actually Vanish into the room. And the thing is.. the EPI's dont need any special "Setup". In fact, they sound best, when placed closest to a wall. Height doesnt matter (they sound better on the floor... and since they are small, they are not at ear level.. but you cant detect that, either). They defy every supposed Rule... and still put out one of the Largest 3d Holographic sound-fields, you have ever heard.
The thing is... not all Tweeters are Equal. And if the tweeters are in a Horn... that makes them even more likely, to be presenting a Distorted "3D Image".
Now... some things that Might be a factor... is a bad / poor crossover, and or bad (out of spec) component on the crossover. What you can try to do, is use an EQ to reduce the treble maximums, to see if you can tame any "Hotness" spikes.
In addition to my EPI's... I also have a mini stereo system, that has a built in 50 cd changer. Its a sony system, with semi-decent sounding speakers. I ran my PCs audio through it, for a while... and found that the tweeters and mids, became way too hot... depending on what I was playing through them. Using software EQ, I was able to dial down the frequencies... and get them to sound decent... no matter what I was playing. They are still no match against the EPI's... but the software EQ made them "Acceptably Decent", for what they are. Im guessing that with better crossover components... it might make them much better... But they are not worth the time nor investment... as they are just dirt cheap, mass manufactured, cheap speakers.
FIRST!
SECOND!
THIRD!