A Bridge Too Far - a Thought from Woody
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- A Bridge Too Far - a Thought from Woody
With Paul Woodadge
Part of our Arnhem Week series
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Also part of our 80th Anniversary Series
• 80th Anniversary Special
As requested, the host of WW2TV will talk about his affection for and annoyance with the classic WW2 move A Bridge Too Far
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Edward Fox as Horrocks is my favourite portrayal of a historical figure. The two men knew each other, so Fox spent a summer with Horrocks to capture his style of delivery
the back and forth between Fox and Caine is amazing
Me too. I've read and watched nearly everything Horrocks produced and dug into a lot of 30 Corps primary sources but I still half see Fox when I think Horrocks.
Fox, besides being a marvelous actor, also perfectly embodies the quintessential attitude of a British Cavalry officer as well as the British gentleman that he is. His style of delivering the 'Just in time is soon enough' proved to be somewhat prophetic.
In reality and despite German unplesantness at Son and Veghel, XXX Corps made it within hours of the original time schedule of Market Garden to contact with 82nd Airborbe at Grave. Only to then have, for lack of the Nijmegen bridges being captured, to dedicate itself to a fight it was not intended for; Fighting through the urban and SS-infested hellscape of Nijmegen for the better part of three precious days. After that the fight turned into one with Gen. Gavin and Browning, who both stated that XXX Corps had shown up too late to make the difference. This was not the case. The Cavalry was fashionably in time.
I enjoy all your podcasts including this one thanks. Did you miss speak you said bridge too far was the first time Germans spoke German and I think it was famously done in the longest day cheers
I think the sequence on the day of the jump starting when they get out of bed in the music builds and they show Trooper after Trooper going out of the plane with the static lines hanging to the trip down stunning
Thanks for a terrific show on a movie that I’m sure gave so much pleasure to us school kids in the 1970’s. We were fortunate to grow up in an era of classic war movies. Made by and large by people who had lived through that war. I’m reminded of the story William Goldman tells of going to dinner with John Frost. And him begging him to take out the surrender scene on the bridge. Goldman wanted to pump up Frost as much as possible and make him the hero of the movie. But Frost didn’t want that. He knew the real heroes of Market Garden were buried in Holland. And Goldman realised he had been treating Frost as a fictional character in his script and not a real person. That to me shows the character of that generation. These people fought to defeat Nazi Germany because they knew it was the morally right thing to do. They didn’t do it for glory or personal prestige.
´morally right thing to do´.
Yeah look whappened to the West after WW2.
Great show, Woody; can’t argue with any of your opinions. BTW, as an 82d vet, was privileged to participate in the daily Nijmegen memorial bridge crossing earlier this year, in honor of the men killed in the assault crossing of the River Waal on this day in 1944.
One of Arnhem's unsung is actor, broadcaster, correspondent & singer, Stanley Maxted. Born in England but raised almost from infancy in Toronto, Ontario, Maxted, seconded to the BBC from the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) reported from the front during Market Garden & created live recordings during the battle @ Arnhem. He played himself during the 1946 filming of, There's Was the Glory. (His lack of a British accent is quite noticeable.) Maxted stated many times both publicly & privately, that one of the most memorable experiences of his long career was to hear the familiar sounding voices of the Canadian engineers as they shouted instructions to the survivors of the fight as they neared the western bank of the river during the evacuation. Oddly, but then again not, Maxted's reporting, like those efforts of Canadian engineers are hardly mentioned. While not directly related to the film A Bridge Too Far, I post the above because most fellow Canadians following this fine series are almost totally ignorant of these contributions to the Market Garden story. Particularly Maxted.
I agree with you on Ryan O'Neal. I remember a quote from a critic at the time. He said "follow Ryan O'Neal into battle? I wouldn't follow Ryan O'Neal into the men's room".
Rhino Neil was great in Peppa Pig.
@@flashgordon6670Sounds like they should’ve asked you! You seem to have all the answers anyway - sorry you got passed over by such undeserving characters
Ryan O'Neill was massively hyped in the mid 1970s, for a brief time he was a huge star. But people seemed to notice he was only average.
Wish they'd done the same with Tom Cruise and left that ham in the 1970s.
@@lllordllloyd Aw, come on. Leave poor Tom out of this - pick on someone your own size.
Even then there were a lot of stories going around about Ryan O'Neal enjoying the Dutch pleasures and not being very sober on the set. But he was nice towards the extras, I can say out of my own experience. He was approachable and talked between the takes with us...
Gene Hackman is one of the best character actors ever.
"A Bridge too Far" was one of the last films I watched before I graduated from High School and enlisted in the Army. I still remember being thrilled with the epic scenes of the air drops and combat depicted in the film. This was before I really knew about the true cost of battle as I discovered later in my life. After I read Cornelius Ryan's book I did notice the artistic license taken with the film. Looking back on it I clearly see the slightly anti-British mood throughout form the beginning. The acting overall was very well done, despite some of the miscasting. One must remember that actors take on roles for employment and have no, or little control over the script. I will always look upon this film as a classic, well deserving of the praises heaped upon it. I try to watch it at least once a year, if nothing else but to hear those many quotable scenes that Woody mentions. My favorite was General Horrock.s (Edward Fox) at the briefing: "This is a story that you'll tell your grandchildren about! And mightily bored they'll be!" Such typical British understatement right from the start. PS: Please do support WW2TV on Patreon if you can. It is well worth the money.
Slightly? Are you attempting to adhere to the British reputation for understatement?
@@Scaleyback317 I am certainly referring to the British reputation for understatement. I hope I didn't offend, but I have noticed the distinct difference between British and American humor over the years. I cherished the differences as I watched such programs as Monty Python and Benny Hill. I noticed such a propensity as far back as when I studied the works of Chaucer and Shakespeare in high school. I am endeared to the difference and if adherence is what you ask, than I am guilty. I truly mean this as a high complement to the people from which my native tongue originated. Cheers.
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my comments, love WW2TV
rReally a great show again. The James Cain scene to me is about loyalty and giving your word... overall one of the best movies about WWII.
I moved to the Netherlands a few years ago....the bridge in the movie is Deventer bridge...the Arnhem bridge was destroyed ...i actually live close to a lot of where it wax shot ...the scene where a jeep is racing through the woods with a injured soldier is the white castle behind my house....my mother in law remembers all the movie stars around the town...
A little correction: the Arnhem bridge was not an option because of some high rise new building near the bridge. The present bridge is an almost 100% copy of the original. It was rebuild shortly after the war based on the original plans. The forest scene was filmed near Jachtslot Mookerheide, indeed a white "castle". Was myself an extra in the movie for a number of days in the summer of 1976. I have so many special memories at that adventure ...
My favorite. Great ensemble cast, memorable scenes and dialogue, practical effects, and a real effort towards historical accuracy wherever possible.
I knew quite a few US paratroopers who were there and met many more as a 101st Airborne soldier in the early 80s, they loved the Dutch and as for the movie it was just that. I belinged to the 82nd division association James Etherton in Detroit and we had paratroopers and glidermen who fought in this. One soldier of the 307th Al Neamith crossed the waal river 3 times ferrying 504th guys over. He uad a way to tell a story in a just a short sentence. Movie can only pack so much in. British did everything they could but the Germans were getting their crap back in order. Maybe if they'd launched a few weeks earlier before the SS arrived it would have been different.
So is war right.
The British actors were great in this movie.
Cheers
I’ve learned more about WW2 from you and your guest than from any other source. Incredible topics ( some very obscure and some forgotten but important in the overall scheme of winning the war). I’ve ordered books your guests discuss because I trust your guests to be the very best subject matter experts. Your guests tell it like it is- pull no punches and have opened me up to more critical thinking about WW2. Keep doing this important work Woody.
There is yet another great YT channel on WW2: 'World War Two' week by week
I had 4'uncle's who was in this rade an only 2came out so that's why this oldswet my self an EX'PARA is jumping in this wkend like thay all did bk 80yrs ago!! So hopefully see u all there!!? We will remember them!! Green on mucker from a oldswet my self an ex'service AB ALL THE WAY BROTHER FROM A EX'PARA!! Top channel guy's keep this up n rolling out 😊
Barry Norman, eat your heart out! Great analysis Woody!
Woody you so should have had me on for this. I could have offered so much context.
The doctor in the Major Fuller scene was a real person. Brigadier Austin Eager who was the Director of Medical Services at First Allied Airborne Army.
Yes, but given a different name
I remember having a few drinks with ‘Shan’ Hackett, in the Adelphi Hotel in Perth. He had just released his book on WW3. He was a brigadier with the paratroops dropped on Arnhem, was badly wounded in the battle and his life was saved by a German doctor. Later he was rescued by the Dutch resistance, nursed back to health and able to escape toAllied lines. He was charming company and, over numerous beers, recalled what he could of the battle most vividly. He regarded it as ‘ a bit of a disaster’, as I recall. Like my dad, he received 2 DSOs.
100% Rolls Royce channel and content , the go to channel for WW2 coverage and deep dives into it
Thanks very much
I worked with a XXX Corps veteran in the early 1980s. That old boy hated A Bridge Too Far! To quote him 'when we got to the Nijmegen bridge, we were about 3 hours behind schedule. And the Yanks hadn't bothered taking the bridge! They were the ones sitting around except they were drinking coffee!'
The more research I've done, the more I've found that asserts xxx corps were doing well for time when they actually arrived at Nijmegan.
The delay seems to have been the 82nds lack of movement to do much of anything to take the bridge before 2nd army arrived.
General Gavins inaction is just baffling. Especially as he changed his story after the war, it's hard to know what he was thinking of.
before 740 men had even arrived at the last intact bridge in Arnhem area (rail bridge 4 miles/6k from LZ Z), 82nd had captured the 500m bridge north of Grave and the last intact bridge over the Maas Waal canal and the Heights for Brownings' useless HQ brought in by 38 of 1st AB's gliders, capacity about 1,000 infantrymen.
when scout cars of XXX Corps arrived at Grave at 0820 on day 3 they were still 28 miles/40 k (on current maps) from Arnhem, well over 1/3 the distance from Joes Bridge to Arnhem with 11 hours to sunset.
on day four Frosts' men ran out of food, ammo and water.
30 Corps should have arrived on the 18th September as per their orders; Operational Instruction No.24.
@@phillydelphia8760 XXX Corps vanguard got there ahead of the parameters set only to find the bridge still in German hands at both ends. Had the 82nd not seemingly forgot the very reason they were transported to the NL for, namely to take and to hold the bridge at both ends then XXX Corps could have crossed and likely made the 8 mile slog to Arnhem Bridge.
Many are not aware that at the time the 82ND were arriving on their DZ's there were only about two dozen Germans defending the bridge!
@@Scaleyback317 pretty much what I've been learning in detail.
They seemed to forget one of their biggest objectives entirely and ran around doing everything else but approach the bridge in any kind of force.
Considering the 82nds previous exploits and achievements, including Gavin himself. It just makes no sense at all.
Granted, the bridge would no longer be contested by Frost and his men by the time they got there.
But the Oosterbeek pocket was still holding strong, and would likely have done even better if the Germans were forced to turn around and deal with the approaching 2nd Army.
There's always something new to learn or consider about this whole operation!
Edit: spelling 🙄
Noting the comments about the absence of Montgomery in this movie, did you notice in Patton, you never saw Eisenhower? BTW, saw this movie when it came out - I was 15. Still enjoy it. And I admire that the Dutch people have not forgotten what the Allies did to liberate their country.
Perhaps the only big budget film that showed the massive Fist the British Army was in 1944/45 on the continent, all the major allied Tank actions were on the British / Canadian axis of advance. The Music for the film is brilliant.
Just watched A Bridge Too Far yesterday.
Thanks for giving me something to do this weekend…pulling the DVD while watching your commentary. Should be a more enjoyable, in depth viewing.
Geoffrey Hinsliff aka Don Brennan in Coronation Street who passed away yesterday played a wireless operator in the film.
Paul, I've not watched this word from you yet but before I do I think it's a great movie. I hope you don't change my mind!
Paul,
Thanks for this discussion on the film and I would agree with the points you make. It is true that the film and indeed its stars have become the benchmark for how we think of the Market Garden operation. It is sad that the 'war epic' type of movie is not made anymore and even if it was my view is the current generation of actors could not carry it off effectively!
It is the benchmark for how mistakenly we think of the Market Garden operation. The film is a travesty designed for one thing only - a whitewashing and absolution for those who made a mess of it and that is not Montgomery or Browning as the film would have you believe.
Do some research (without referrel to the book or the film - entertaining but garbage for historical purposes) and then ask if you have been presented with anything approaching truthful concerning the whole affair since the disaster unfolded due to the errors of two men in particular. See if you can identify for yourself who those two culprits might be from deeper research.
It was not Montgomery's plan. Montgomery had the idea (and it could have been hugely effective correctly planned and administered) It was easier for US sources to point fingers and allow Monty to take the popular rap for something which others should have been investigated for but apparently were not.
Some of the pushback reflects back to the mistakes in Ryan's source material but I to this day I will watch 'The Longest Day' and 'A Bridge Too Far' any time I have the opportunity. Same goes for 'Tora Tora Tora', 'The Battle of Britain', 'Patton' and 'From Here to Eternity.' As far as miscasting it is hard to top John Wayne in TLD but your 3 choices for Gavin, Taylor and 'Stout/Sink' I think they selected actors who were good draws' and resembled the historical figures more than others. With no CGI they used vehicles to represent the actual vehicles and the audience did not have the minutia critical eye for that sort of thing - it was the story, acting and glorious music.
Check out "They Were Expendable". I retired from Texas to Cavite, Philippines in 2018. This movie really covers a lot of real history - also a lot of invented Hollywood propaganda, but well made and shows the vanishing American cultural presence in the Philippines from that era.
Back when the film was released, I recall seeing or reading an interview with Attenborough where he described his film as "a cry from the heart" against war.
@lorencain9551 W H A T A bleeding heart !! (nuff said).
i bumped my paetron monthly donation up. i wish it could be more. thank you i'll now go watch a bridge too far.
Thank you very much
(1) Great video as usual! Thank you! Sharing my thoughts as I watch it... (2) Compacting such a monumental operation on a three-hour movie is a tour de force, which came out superbly, notwithstanding its perceivable shortcomings. (3) Yes, General Urquhart shooting thee German soldier ended up unduly as one of the movie's most memorable scenes. Too shocking to be otherwise, but it could not be left out. Maybe another approach to filming the scene might change this a bit. (4) About the casting, my reservations go to Robert Redford and Elliot Gould. Redford not because any flaw of his own. It's just that I couldn't set aside my memories of his previous acting roles while watchig him acting as an American paratrooper. As for Gould, I think he exaggerated in the characterization of his part, so much so that all I remember is a cigar protruding from his lips. Maybe I'm exaggerating in my assessment here... (5) It would have been amazing if CG was available to upscale the airdrops and glider landings to their actual, gigantic sizes. On the other hand, it costs a small fortune for CG to work really well, that being the reason we see movies in dark shades, desaturated colors, showing mostly night and/or rain scenes, poor coloring and so forth. Just compare Mitchum's and Jürgens's "The Enemy Below" with Hanks's "Greyhound", both great movies, but the first makes for much better watching experience, in my opinion. Anyway, they made the best with what they had to represent Market Garden's airdrops and glider landings, and they did it pretty well indeed. (6) Back to the video...
I couldn’t agree with you more Paul.
Forget some details. One can still watch it over and over again without getting annoyed.
Compared to the horrible “Battle of the Bulge”, this movie holds its own.
Ryan O'Neal acts like a loose cannon cop , very "Starsky and Hutch".
On Hardy Krueger and his role in the Yugoslav epic "Battle on Neretva":
Hardy Krüger has often said he wanted to present “a good German” to the world through his acting. His popularity in these roles (like in “The One That Got Away”, 1957), made him an obvious choice for the role of Colonel Kränzer in the Yugoslav epic. Made to glorify the revolution while aiming for the international market, the screenplay for “Neretva” had to be carefully balanced. Worn-out stereotypes and open propaganda would simply not do with the foreign public. Bulajic therefore decided to introduce a character role for the Germans in the Partisan films for the first time. This would add an interesting new level to the plot and deflect possible criticism of the film as overt propaganda. In short, Krüger plays a “good bad guy”, Colonel Kränzer, a decorated field officer leading his men from the front. In stark contrast to the officers from other films of the genre, he is not callously wasting the lives of his soldiers. For example, he is being rather hesitant to allow his young adjutant to lead an attack on the Partisans, much to the dismay of the former. His care for the ordinary soldier is evident when he tells an exhausted courier to “go get some warmth at the field kitchen.” Kränzer reaches a catharsis during the climactic scene at the end of the movie: as Germans move ever closer to the Partisans’ main hospital, he hears the wounded sing a popular folk song “Padaj silo i nepravdo” (“Down with Force and Injustice”) while shells rain down on them. He realizes that such an enemy can simply not be defeated, and directly disobeys Lohring who is ordering him forward at all costs. The impeccably dressed Lohring phoning from his salon-like headquarters stands in clear contrast to Kränzer’s worn out uniform, dirty face and shoddy command post. After seeing the projection, Tito allegedly commented that he especially liked Hardy Krüger “although he was playing a German colonel.”
On A Quest For “A Good German”: The Portrayal Of Germans In Yugoslav War Movies, JIPSS 5/1 (2011), 80-81
With Kruger in the Battle of Neretva it does depend on which version you watch. In the English dubbed short version, he's a growling, snarling nasty SS commander. In the longer version in Serbo-Croat his role is expanded and more nuanced - as indeed you say. The same applies to Franco Nero's Italian, with a difference in versions. The group most tuned into villains are the Royalist/Chetniks, although understandable as it came out during the Tito years
Have that film,and its very good. The partisans in Yugoslavia were amongst some of the toughest troops in the war.
Great talk, Woody, loved the "100 donuts" analogy. So true of many military ops. Agree with your assessment; great as a film, some flaws, some negatives in the legacy in misleading audiences about what actually happened during OMG. And very influential that way because movies tend to have so much more impact than books. A ten part series sounds great, you should pitch an agent.
James Coburn as Gavin! The scene driving down the road before XXX Corp attack gives a better feel for the scale of a major offensive than any other scene in any film anywhere. The rolling barrage is fantastic although I suspect the first units up the road would be recce vice the tanks. Parachute drop is dramatic, however, combat drops were made from around 800 feet to minimize time in the air. However, safety considerations just wouldn't let you do that in training or for a film.
In the movie they jumped from about 1000 - 1200 feet. Most jumps were done by British paras. Fresh from Northern Ireland were they lost some comrades. Several accidents happened during the shootings of these scenes but "that was all in the game". 3% injured in a jump was (maybe still is?) normal for them.... I was an extra during all the mass scenes with the landings. They jumped sometimes 2 or 3 times in one day. We stayed 16 to 20 hours in those fields. Like in a real army: 95% of the time was waiting, 5% action.
@@ce17ec Some. Believe there was a lot of film from training jumps that had been worked on. Pretty sure I've seen a lot of the footage elsewhere. They probably did the close up scenes going out the door. Bet there is a book on making the film.
@@davidpf043 Don't think so. In the movie I can recognise the backgrounds in all mass jump scenes. They used two large locations near Arnhem (Terlet) and Apeldoorn (Garderen). Some jumps were used for different locations in the movie. And they used many camera's at the ground and in the air. On the ground we were with ca. 500 till 1500 extra's running around with parachutes, weapons etc. That's not something you can do in a studio. Maybe some of the close ups, but even then. Ryan O'neal and Peter Faber jumped from a tower crane right in front of the camera on the heather of Terlet airfield. Very sure about that. I was one of the first extra's right behind them....
@@ce17ec Wow. Where did they get all the C-47s? I'm impressed. Judging based on when I did my jump training and we did first static line from 2400 or so. They just looked high to me. Might be camera and distance effect that makes it look higher than it was. Thanks for the info!
@@davidpf043 C47 / DC3 were not that rare in those days. If I remember well they had 9 planes rented from several countries and companies. Altough CGI was non existend in those days, they used other analogue technics to multply the image. So that they filled the air with planes, but in reality it were the same 9 many times.
The scene set (I think) in Holland that I witnessed being filmed in Reading, Berks shows an old fashioned terraced street as the Dakotas flew over. I couldn't believe my eyes and it wasn't until I saw the film that I realised what I saw from my dads car was real. The only dodgy thing was Gene Hackmans Polish accent 😅
Another .... and how was Brian Urquhart portrayed a someone teetering on a nervous breakdown and was cashiered out after his insistence on showing Browning the German armor whe he had award winning service the remainder of the war?
Fair point. I'd say it comes down to compression of a complicated thing into a small space. 🤷♂️
He wasn't cashiered out, he was sent on leave and returned to the Corps HQ at Malden on 22 September by the overland route up the MARKET GARDEN corridor. As a civil servant after the war he was instrumental in setting up the useless and corrupt United Nations organisation and served as its first Under-Secretary-General for Special Political Affairs, which I understand is a euphemism for peacekeeping operations.
Since the aerial photo could not be located when Cornelius Ryan was researching his book and Browning had already passed away in 1965 unable to defend himself, that entire story rested on Ryan's 1967 interview of Brian Urquhart. The discovery of the photo in a Dutch goverment archive in 2014 has cast doubt that Browning's dismissal of it displayed bad judgement, and my own research indicates the Corps senior staff position of GSO 1 (Lieutenant Colonel) for Intelligence was unfilled, and as a GSO 2 (Major) Brian Urquhart would have been his assistant, so I think Urquhart was simply out of his depth and the whole story should be considered one-sided. As a newspaper journalist, Cornelius Ryan got the 'story' he wanted and did not dig any deeper, like much of his book.
@@davemac1197 Thank you, my statement was pointing to the movie implied the doctor relieved him and off he went.
@@MrFrikkenfrakken - yes, the film is propaganda on a number of issues.
@@davemac1197 Not propaganda, just a movie. Braveheart... now that's propaganda. 😆
Great show. Agree with all your thoughts. Hope the algorithm corrects and your views pick back up again to the levels you deserve!
Just read it. Ryan’s research is brilliant.
Green on mucker lots of memories from a oldswet my self an ex'service AB ALL THE WAY BROTHER FROM A EX'PARA 😊😊!! See u all on the DZ!! Sat.😊
Pretty good review of a film that's grown a lot on me over the years. I do like describing it as an anti-war film, insomuch as there is an older generation of folks that enjoyed war films that were a bit more positive and uplifting, and less critical of events in the war. Its easier to explain to the uninitiated how much better ABTF is about showing the horror and destruction of war alongside the great feats being accompished on our way to ultimate victory (and the juxtaposition of the fanfair-like theme just underscores that dichotomy). And that very last scene of the dutch family walking away as refugees from the utter destruction of their home and family (as we never find out what happens to her husband, but...given the destruction around them).
Highlights for me of the film are the first advance into Holland, especially the rolling barrage at the start, I cant think of a single film that shows the absolute dread the Germans probably felt as that rolling barrage crept up and rolled right over them. And yes, seeing the real jumps, and the quality of the shots capturing that are just brilliant, and kinda set the bar for any similar shots in the future (Band of Brothers literally copies this, but with CGI). Also, how they show just how difficult Johnny Frost's men had holding out at the bridge is really good. Its a very very British film, in terms of sensibilities, and yes, it means its an infinitely more quoteable film (and that's an American saying this lol).
I am curious about the postwar criticism of Gen. Gavin, and how some hesitation on his end allowed the Germans to take Nijmegen and put on a stronger defense. I dunno, that's a side story I like to know more about (that they didn't cover in this film, but I get it, they cant hit on every aspect of that battle in just one film).
I've always thought it should have been a trilogy.
Fun show! Something different between all the serious stuff. Not sure if you saw my final comment: Jack Didden was mentioned in comments on the Edwin Popken video (and I have read some of his work in Dutch) but he's a Dutch historian specialized in Noord-Brabant area (Hell's Highway, Overloon, Pheasant, Schelde etc). He's also published in English on Kamfgruppe Walter, Kampfgruppe Chill, German 15. Army... He might be an amazing guest to have
oh and he's a retired (I assume) English teacher so language should be ok 😉
Yep, I had a brain fart, I have one of his books
Apropos of nothing except 'Browning as the villain of the piece' FWIW I think he does bear a major share for the disaster at Nijmegen. He inserted his entire HQ and staff into Gavin's Division purely because he wanted the personal 'glory' of being in on the drop. Not because it served any useful military purpose. As Corps commander he had no business at the sharp end. In fact it took away much needed transport aircraft and supplies.
Furthermore it gave the nervous Gavin one more excuse to sit tight up on the Groosbeek heights. In this case to defend the plethora of HQ personnel rather than assault the bridge on Day 1 as ordered by Monty and Brereton. Additionally as Browning was actually there in person he has no excuse for not motivating Gavin to crack on with the key part of his job, grabbing the undefended bridge asap.
Just MHO but I'd rate the commander liability for failure of OMG as: Gavin 50% for being shaky after his disastrous Normandy drop. His diary makes clear he wasn't going to get his HQ overrun again and lose control like in Normandy. It also shows he's anti-British and expects the operation to fail from the start. This negative defensive mind-set explains why he couldn't be bothered to send even one battalion from his whole Division against the main bridge on Day1. Against orders.
Then maybe Browning 25% at fault mainly as detailed above. Brereton 15% for basically giving his orders then going AWOL during the most important operation of his career. Then Monty 10% for not getting a grip of his subordinates like he usually did. Wow what a long comment - I'll leave it there!
Although, some historians suggest Dempsey insisted that Browning brought his full HQ. But there's a difference between showing a flawed hero with good intentions and an actual villain. I don't have an issue with pointing out Browning's errors, but I do think the films makes him look somewhat disinterested and unsympathetic.
I've been told it was Dempsey who instructed Browning to take his Corps HQ to Groesbeek, but haven't seen any references for it. The problem with comments like this is that it does sound reasonable until you research the facts and find the popular narrative has been made on false assumptions.
1. "He inserted his entire HQ and staff into Gavin's Division purely because he wanted the personal 'glory' of being in on the drop. Not because it served any useful military purpose. As Corps commander he had no business at the sharp end." - my problem with this attitude is that Browning was awarded his DSO (narrowly missing out on a VC) for his handling of several companies that had lost their officers as a young Lieutenant at the 1917 battle of Cambrai, while Jimmy Gavin was 10 years old and still in short trousers.
Browning was concerned about the Nijmegen bridge, and with good reason: Brereton and Williams had removed Browning's proposed dawn glider coup de main assaults on the Arnhem-Nijmegen-Grave bridges by their arbitrary decision to conduct all MARKET flights in daylight, and this meant only one lift per day, and daylight glider assaults would be too risky.
Gavin, according to Cornelius Ryan's interview notes, said "the British" [probably Browning] wanted him to drop a battalion on the northern end of the Nijmegen bridge to take it by coup de main. While he toyed with the idea, he said he eventually discarded it because of his experience in Sicily (with a badly scattered drop at night, disorganising the division for days). Instead he opted to drop his regiments together and have the battalions fan out towards their objectives, instructing Colonel Lindquist of the 508th to send his 1st Battalion directly to the Nijmegen bridge immediately on landing.
Source: Notes on meeting with J.M. Gavin, Boston, January 20, 1967 (James Maurice Gavin, Box 101 Folder 10, Cornelius Ryan Collection, Ohio State University)
Browning decided to move up the transport of his Corps HQ from 2nd to 1st airlift, because thanks to Brereton and Williams this was no longer an evening to morning of D-Day move, but from D+1 to D-Day.
2. "In fact it took away much needed transport aircraft and supplies" - no, it bumped transport of 1st Airlanding Anti-Tank Battery Z Troop guns (for Division HQ defence) and the second line ammunition Jeeps and trailers for the Battery. Since 1st Airborne did not come under any heavy pressure from armour in the first 24 hours, and the AT ammunition was the only type that did not run out even by the end of the battle (German tanks are very wary of British AT guns), Browning's judgement did not cause any problems for 1st Airborne at Arnhem.
3. "Furthermore it gave the nervous Gavin one more excuse to sit tight up on the Groosbeek heights." - no, as John C. McManus records in September Hope - The American Side of a Bridge Too Far (2012):
'As Gavin finished his briefing, the British General [Browning] cautioned him: “Although every effort should be made to effect the capture of the Grave and Nijmegen bridges, it is essential that you capture the Groesbeek ridge and hold it.”
General Gavin did have some appreciation of this. At an earlier meeting with his regimental commanders, he [Gavin] had told Colonel Roy Lindquist of the 508th Parachute Infantry that even though his primary mission was to hold the high ground at Berg en Dal near Groesbeek, he was also to send his 1st Battalion into Nijmegen to take the key road bridge.
At the same time, Colonel Lindquist had trouble reconciling Gavin's priorities for the two ambitious objectives of holding Berg en Dal and grabbing the bridge. He believed that Gavin wanted him to push for the bridge only when he had secured the critical glider landing zones and other high ground. According to Lindquist, his impression was that "we must first accomplish our main mission before sending any sizeable force to the bridge." Actually, General Gavin wanted the 508th to do both at the same time, but somehow this did not sink into the 508th's leadership.'
- Gavin was not nervous, he was as "mad" as the 508th liaison officer to Division HQ, Captain Chet Graham, had ever seen him after delivering a message that Lindquist was not moving on the Nijmegen bridge until he had cleared the DZ. Graham and Gavin went immediately to the 508th CP to get Lindquist moving - Gavin's first words were "I told you to move with speed." Browning had tried to get the bridge seized by coup de main by two methods, both rejected, and now the whole operation was falling apart because Gavin had entrusted a key objective to a gifted administrator who had already performed badly as a field commander in Normandy.
Source: Put Us Down In Hell - The Combat History of the 508th PIR in WW2, Phil Nordyke (2012)
- Browning was not party to this, although the two HQs were not far apart, they were not co-located.
- In my opinion, the compromises in the planning and execution of MARKET were caused by Brereton-Williams-Gavin-Lindquist. Browning had already been politically neutralised by Brereton after threatening to resign over Brereton's LINNET II operation being scheduled too soon to print and distribute maps for briefing the troops. Brereton had planned to accept Browning's resignation (actually he would have to pass it on to Eisenhower with his own comments) and replace him with Matthew Ridgway and his US XVIII Airborne Corps for the operation. Thankfully, LINNET II was cancelled and both men agreed to forget the incident, but it meant that Browning could not influence MARKET once it was in the hands of the American commanders.
Source: Proposed Airborne Assaults in the Liberation of Europe, James Daly (2024)
- In light of the new evidence emerging since Cornelius Ryan, and indeed from unpublished research in Cornelius Ryan's own notes and documents, my sympathies are very much with Browning.
Radio communications were expected to be problematic and for various reasons they were even worse than anticipated. Landing with HQ staff was intended to help with that by having the shortest distance from XXX Corps' start point and to Arnhem. Radio communications were much more primitive then, and things like ones in Jeeps often had only two or three mile range in wooded country.
The HQ drop was to try to maintain command and control. The big issue was the timing of the landings and the number of them meaning the HQ took up too much first day resources.
@@wbertie2604 - it wasn't appreciated until after the war that the glacial moraine forming the high ground of the Veluwe region around Arnhem had a high iron content in the sandy soil, and this blocked radio communications unless virtually line of sight. The Royal Artillery sets were more powerful than the battalion communications, so they were still working over the maximum range of the field guns, so the guns in Oosterbeek were able to support Frost's perimeter at the bridge, but he link was too busy to carry battalion communications as well, hence only intermittant contact was possible.
Browning's Corps HQ was intended to co-ordinate airborne operations, including resupply, but the reason for moving up its transport from 2nd to 1st airlift was because Brereton and Williams' decision to fly only one lift per day pushed the 2nd lift back to D+1, and there's plenty of evidence Browning was concerned about the Nijmegen bridge capture on D-Day after his glider coup de main raids were edged out of the plan as a consequence of the daylight airlift decision and then Gavin discarded a request to drop a battalion on the northern end of the bridge. It turned out his fears were well-founded.
@@davemac1197 The battalion sets had a range of just a handful of miles, and were further hampered by trees. Iron might not have helped, but the movie seems to suggest the battalion sets would be communicating with Browning when there was zero chance of that - that required the US Signal Corps sets. Granted, the real reasons are more complex than the movie could easily have portrayed but it did a very poor job of it even then. Later on the artillery sets were able to talk to artillery on the other side of the river to direct fire around Oosterbeek.
Yes, Browning gets ire for tying up the first lift when he wanted to be in the second. Plus a direct bridge assault in the first few minutes is also what he wanted.
Love it Woody.
Never mind Connery and Murphy, i feel the same about you 😜
Zulu, has quotable lines, Michael Caine did his National Service in Korea
And allegedly swore at MacArthur...
This is such a fabulous movie. "Browning becomes the fall guy" in lieu of Monty is a great assessment that I never considered.
Browning had no business being in the position he was for sure but the one who should have been the fall guy (and there was probably more than one who should shoulder the responsibility was neither Browning nor Montgomery. Contrary to popular belief it was not Monty's plan. It was his idea and it was a worthy idea. The villain of the planning was a US General by the name of Brereton, inept and inexperienced in any way of airborne requirements/actions.
It was great entertainment as a work largely of fiction as an historically accurate depiction it fell short in several major aspects. It served the author's wishes to offer absolution of any blame where the blame for the failure of the operation lay -on US heads and for the sake of the targetted audience (USA) skilfully avoided any finger pointing at US entities.
Do your research and you'll see it's the usual whitewashing for US purposes to the detriment of all others especially the British. It just does not hold up to scrutiny.
I agree that Brereton gets off scot-free, and we have talked about him a lot on WW2TV
@@WW2TV Theirs Is The Glory 1946 HD
ua-cam.com/video/fiFeYxlPYy4/v-deo.html
What a great review. Cliff ! Didnt know he was in it, I must re-watch this. A 10 part series would be fantastic.
Woody well done as usual. I saw the World Premiere of the film in Boston, Mass. Thanks again.
Well remembered on The Jazz Singer.
If I may add another comment 'A Bridge Too Far' sounds more attributed to studio promotional wonks than the historians, buffs and veterans.
Well, it's Cornelius Ryan really
@@WW2TVCornelius Ryan was an Irish American journo who followed Patton around as one of his cheerleaders, so guess what, his history reflected his Anglophobia. Why not google Colonel Candy and get a proper perspective on the movie
Very much enjoyed this, Paul. I rewatched the film after coming back from Arnhem and as much as I love it, and it was so fundamental in my journey as you suggest for us all, it’s just full of nonsense from start to end.
I prefer long form it makes the working day go quicker 😊
Gene Hackman gets grief for his Polish accent, but in this movie he's doing a dead-on impression of Zbigniew Brzezinski.
Fun fact (from watching the film countless times since 1977): There are at least three places where you hear the same disembodied voice say, "Come on, move yourself!" ... It's heard when the troops are climbing into the planes, again during the airborne landing, and also during the Bailey bridge scene. Also Connery's "Hollywood hand wave" salute when he's about to board his glider really annoys me, especially when compared to Dirk Bogarde's crisp salute in the same scene.
Hardy Krüger played a fictional character because Heinz Harmel did not want his name mentioned in the movie.
Like anyone should have cared what a former SS commander wanted lol
You've posted this same reply on at least 3 WW2TV videos now. Thanks for the interaction, but I still fail to see how the loss of Commandos in Chariot has any impact on an Airborne battle over 2 years later. Now, I will concede that Chariot has a huge impact on what raids could be planned in the immediate aftermath, but not in September 1944
Paul, the film is called The Bridge Too Far because it is based on the Cornelius Ryan, thats why most of the topics included in the book are there, including "safe my pal, doctor" scene. I like it by the way.
Yes, of course I am aware of that
The remake of Thin Red Line may have been the last star studded war movie we’ll ever see
Yep, forgot about that, mainly because apart from the bunker on the hill scene with John Cusack the rest of the film falls flat for me
@@WW2TVOh Woidy, you're a hard man! It was a great film, free of all the garbage that Spielberg tacked onto Private Ryan. And an interesting and respectful rendition of a great book.
An awesome movie
Unused scenes on the from the Arnhem Bridge battle were used in Secret Army
I still think if in the penultimate scene with Connery & Bogarde if according to Airborne lore, Urquhart gave Browning a right hander. Having said that the scene is very powerful.
Cheers Woody great vid I’ve not seen A Bridge Too Far since I was a kid so just got my hands on it so will watch at the weekend with a bottle of red can’t wait.
Sorry I missed this live, but loving every part of it now
Wonder if Davis Lean would have made a better movie? Likely over budget as he liked things to be accurate. Enjoyed the Horrocks portrayal. As a boy I recall him presenting series on Tv about famous battles. He was an engaging personality. Edward Fox got him right. Classic movie to be watched at least once a year alongside Zulu and Das Boot.
I remember this film coming out. It got a bit battered by the critics. I remember one commented 'An Hour Too Long'
nominated for 8 BAFTA's and won 4
not nominated for any Academy Awards
I love this movie, watch it once a year. For a feature film, it is very objective and accurate, although with some errors.
Hardy Krüger wasn't in Cross of Iron, but Maximillian Schell was.
Yes I know
Its very sad, that they dont make movie like this anymore.
And whats also great is that there was no female love interest to spoil it like in the Battle of Britain or Sink the Bismark
Dont forget that the beach obstacles in Saving Private Ryan are placed the wrong way around.
Somebody should film "The Cauldron" by Zeno ( actually Sgt Val Allerton of 21st Independent Parachute Company) One of the best war books ever written.
The Eagle Has Landed has lots of quotable lines.
“I’ve got X number of men to bury and no office for small talk”; I was under the impression the Polish army surrendered in 1939, etc.
Yep with you there, paul top film agree. The doohan scenes do my nut in... thank god for fast forward!
Never ever be able to make a film like that again
Montgomery wasn't shown in the film because he was still alive when they were filming and were wary about portraying him too badly.
It wasnt for lack of trying, it was the failure of the PR interpreters who missed the build up of the Panzers who were in the area for R&R despite being pictured by the PR Spitfires before the drop(s)
Unfortunately for Cornelius Ryan's very one-sided story on this, the photo was located in a Dutch government archive in 2014 and analysed by the RAF's Air Historical Branch. It does indeed show obsolete models of Panzer III and Panzer IV (with the short L24 gun), ruling out a 1944 panzer division as the likely owner. The unit has been identified as a Luftwaffe training unit and we know that on 17 September the tanks were parked across the road from the 506th PIR's drop zone on Sonsche Heide at Wolfswinkel, where they were shot up by escorting USAAF aircraft.
In my view this exonerates Browning's dismissal of the aerial image (nothing like the oblique created for the Hollywood film) and intelligence, or lack of it, was not the cause of the operation to fail. The armour belonging to II.SS-Panzerkorps was held back for use against the British ground forces and generally only training and security units rushed to Arnhem from Germany or the Dutch coast defences were used to retake the Arnhem bridge or attack the division perimeter. German tanks were also very wary of British anti-tank guns from their experience in Normandy and although the British Airborne had to surrender at the bridge and withdrawn across the Rijn from Oosterbeek after running out of small arms and PIAT ammunition, there was considerable quantity of AT gun munitions remaining, because German tanks avoided their sight lines. Some guns hardly got to fire a shot in the entire nine days of the seige. I suspect one of the reasons Airborne AT guns are not shown in the film at all is because it would have to show them being effective and Attenborough wanted to show the Airborne as lightly armed and unable to stop enemy tanks. Not true at all.
The link to the free pdf booklet on the study called Arnhem:The Air Reconnaisance Story was replaced recently by the booking page for a lecture on the subject at RAF Cosford on Tuesday of this week (17 September) to mark the 80th anniversary by author Dr Sebastian Ritchie of the RAF AHB, so the 2nd Edition (2019) is currently unavailable, but the 1st Edition (2016) is still on the Vrienden Airborne Museum website (on the 'Bibliotheek' page). I attended the lecture on Tuesday and asked if a 3rd Edition is in the works and he says there is, but it's held up by a problem finding the source for a photo in order to get permission to use it.
An abridged version of the study is also in the 2nd Edition of his book Arnhem: Myth and Reality: Airborne Warfare, Air Power and the Failure of Operation Market Garden (2011, 2019)
A great movie and a very good summary by you Woody.
But Gene Hackman was a good actor, but he did not look or sound Polish, so he spoiled it for me.
Tough grading not to give Liv an A+ she’s about the only girl in the movie! The ‘villain’ always going to be the highest ranking allied officer if not Browning then Monty if not Monty then Ike. They are the ones who Okayed a plan that was “A Bridge Too Far” impossible despite the heroic of the Allied soldiers.
As I said, she was great, just not given much to do by the script
SRA is David's older brother . Younger people will know him in Jurassic park , we also seen him in Dr Doolittle and Flight of the Phoenix
Of course, and many classics like Brighton Rock, 10 Rillington Place, The Sand Pebbles etc etc
There's a couple of things I forgot to mention. "This is your life" from 1978 featuring John Frost is, I think, still locatable on YT. Arnhem survivors are invited on at one point. Worth catching. There's also an impressive looking book about the making of the film available through Amazon. Lastly, regarding casting, I was surprised to discover that Urquhart spoke in a slightly high pitched clipped English accent. So big Sean looked right but didn't sound quite right. Never mind.
Yep Big Roy was like many posh Scots - sounded like an English toff
Battle on the bridge scene long shot copied by Mad Max: beyond the thunder dome.
Enjoyed your thoughts and I think your assessments are well-reasoned. From an American standpoint, I assume that casting
pretty-boy heartthrobs like Robert Redford and Ryan O'Neil were intended to make the film more appealing to American audiences at that time, particularly to women. And I share your opinion of Gene Hackman as the greatest American actor of his time. Well done.
Great follow up to yesterday's with Al yesterday. Originally saw this film with someone who was in the desert and saw Horrocks. Said Edward Fox portrael was great. The Longest Day goog film with a lot of stars. Two good books by Cornelius Ryan
CRs book ABTF is very far from factual.
@@johndawes9337 - actually, the errors are errors of omission, so it's like editing a tape and getting the speaker into deep trouble with his own words. I could take your comment and truthfully say your words were:
"CR's book ABTF is very factual."
I have always loved epic films all these years but for me the genre ended with A Bridge Too Far and Zulu Dawn both great films. What disappoints me about the former is they went all out to show the allied vehicles authentically but didn't do the same for the Germans. Still, it is an enjoyable film. I read the book and saw the movie back in 1977 which now I have both the DVD and the soundtrack. It's a great pity they didn't turn Cornelius Ryan's book about the battle of Berlin into a movie by maybe seeking co-operation with the then Soviet Union and directed by the great director Sergei Bondachuck who did War and Peace and Waterloo. Now that would have been something to see.
One of things that strikes me about the movie giving the success of Star Wars. And all the merchandise that movie sold. I’m surprised the producerJoseph E Levine didn’t capitalise on the merchandise potential of A Bridge Too Far ? I don’t seem to remember any model kits coming out at the time connected with the movie or books. I do have the paperback version of the movie with photos thou. But it’s surprising that an opportunity like that was not looked at.
"line extensions" the fluff is called in industry jargon. 4 yrs apres ET took care of that; th3 junk was all over, even heah in the N ..
Hi Woody, what's your opinion on Their's is the glory 1946.
It's a fine effort, but it always feels like an Amateur Dramatics production when I rewatch
The film’s title came from Cornelius Ryan’s book and I’m told a lot of times the editor chooses the title. I really did like Edward Fox as Horrocks one of my favorite characters in the movie. My favorite scenes are all the ones with Anthony Hopkins though. On the other hand all the scenes with Elliot Gould make me cringe with his overacting. Overall one of my favorite movies.
I am pretty sure the 1st Div Airbourne wounded who were treated during the truce were of a different opinion.
Maybe though because Bittrich had the Red Cross breathing down his neck and it was 1944. He wasn't that way in Poland etc earlier in the war
Were active duty troops used for the parachuting scene?
Yep and TA units from the UK
@@WW2TV TA?
Territorial Army, UK equivalent of National Guard
I once worked with Gene Hackman. As an actor a mediocre talent. As a person, a real arrogant ass.
@josephinekush5056 ...TELL IT TO ...guess whom ..(?).
Great film, but riddled with anti-British sentiment - Monty was a fool, no British crews on the boats crossing the river at Nijmegen, four British tanks refusing to take on the whole German army at night...... You are dead right about Olivier, he was never a film actor, always acting like he was on stage.
directed by Baron Richard Attenborough
nominated for 8 BAFTA's and won 4
not nominated for any Academy Awards
All good war films are antiwar films. They show the cost and the horror
Very thourough thoughts, indeed :) I don't agree with your "legacy" point, nevertheless very good stuff :)
Which specific point do you disagree with? The fact it influences how people perceive the battle?
@@WW2TV Indeed :) I'm turning sixty yo, I first watched this movie in my early teens, in french version and B&W, it was impressive enough to leave a strange feeling on me. At that young age I wasn't acute with actors and films, nor with operations during WWII. Saw a bunch of'em (the movies) in quite a short term, while being taught of the fall of the french "Empire". Then wachted dozens of movies and flicks about those items, with my opinions varying a lot :D
I guess you brits and yanks had always an hindsight better than we frogs :D
To end that topic, I never considered "A Bridge too far" movie some kind of keystone to my understanding of operation "Market Garden" but it inspired me to find some more accurate infos about it. Imagine how glad I was when tumbling upon a "Their's the Glory" DVD !
Poor script I can't deny but hail to these who reenacted their deeds about one year after they went through the fan...
To cut short my babbling, it depends from where you come from to feel the legacy of this movie ;)
No harm meant :D
(You may read something of me in the comments about "the Arnhem betrayal" soon ;) :D)
Regards
It may be a cultural thing. I've lived in France for years and don't recall ever seeing the movie on French TV, in the UK it is on all the time
@@WW2TV Did you enjoy the late 60's - early 70's progs ? :D 2 channels but "Les dossiers de l'écran" ! You had Monthy Pythons Flying Circus and the Prisoner at that times we had serious matters provided online :D
The Prisoner is one of my favourite series of all time. Love Python too
ryan is the guy that shouldn't be there doesn't fit in somehow. Not that I know a lot about that. I'm not a contrarian. Brit tankers aren't shock troops though armor doctrine is. actors and rock stars well .... they got to be cocksure don't they?
Nigel Green from Zulu (Colour Sgt. Bourne) would have made a great Browning, unfortunately he died a few years before the movie
Market-Garden reminds me of Yamamoto’s plan for the Battle of Midway. Complicated and it requires the enemy to react and behave as you want them too
Yep, that's a fair point
Watch the other video in this Arnhem series implying that the Soviet's employed their agents to tip the Germans off about 'Market Garden' in order to give themselves an easier time in the east
@@stephenchappell7512 I suspect the Luftwaffe could see a build up, and the Germans captured the entire plan about an hour into the first drop. Conspiracies aren't required.
And thanks for all the work you put into this channel on WW2. For me that war is not a abstract thing from the past. My father fought at Tobruk in 1941 and was awarded the DCM for exceptional bravery during the May 4th battle on hill 209. So I know the character and quality of a lot of the people you talk about on your channel.
The Longest Day, Von Ryan's Express, etc etc
Von Ryans Express is really well made, a forgotten classic. Anyone reading these comments should check it out. You won't be disappointed.
I find the James Caan scene adds to the film. As a personal vignette
Thank you so much for this. In 1977 some parents took their sons to watch Star Wars, my Dad took me to see "A Bridge Too Far." It had a huge influence on me and does still. But it's really great to have this discussion to add so much to the experience while watching it all over again.
Agreed! I was a Star Wars kid but must have watched Bridge with my Dad (8 Corps bag carrier's assistant) three or four times. Always good having a veteran as movie critic. 😊
I went into the city on my own to see Star Wars at 13 , and Dad took me to the Drive In. Dad had a handlebar moustache and was drinking long necks in the car . He was the same generation as the actors.I think I fell asleep near the middle
The actor playing von Rundstedt had also played Kesselring in the movie "Anzio" flamboyally, his portrayal totally at variance with the austere personality of the real von Rundstedt. You will see him in the film saying (dismissively) to his assembled staff when one of them assumed Montgomery would lead the attack: 'Not Montgomery, Patton is their best'. Von Rundstedt did make that remark but when in American captivity. When in British captivity he told his captor's that Montgomery was their best. In the film (of course) it sounds as though Patton had the talents to be the Allied Land Force Commander which he did not, he was a superb tank commander, Monty was the master of the battlefield.
30th Corps were not late arriving at Nijmegan they were on time, but US General Gavin had not secured the bridge because (along with Browning) he was diverted to gain hold of the Groesbeck Heights allowing the Germans to re-invest the far side of the bridge so (when 30th Corps arrived) they had to assist 82nd Airborne in capturing the bridge, by the time this was achieved it was too late to save the British paras.
As I wrote below this was an anti-British movie with an American audience in mind. Fine acting undoubtedly, but it was American financed and as Sir Roy Urquhart would say (after he had watched the film) 'it is a travesty'.