The TRUTH About Wavedashing in SSBM
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Wavedashing has been held back by an unknown factor this entire time! By following these steps, you'll be able to make all of your wavedashes several frames better.
b0xx.com
/ ssbmhax
Note: There is a typo on the Short Hop / F3 Shine / F1 Airdodge row. Fox spends 14f airborne during that outcome (not 13f).
luigi go yahoo yipee
Thanks Hax
this make me feel like a cave man
Bro start streaming
I think the statement ~"pros would agree you can only hit 1 frame windows ~80% of the time" needs some proof. Actually, that's a much more interesting video idea than 4 minutes on "plinking wavedash is optimal." Just go over all 1f windows and try to get a sense of their actual value according to pros. I'm pretty sure Cody only goes for 1f late wavedashes and I'm sure other pros do the same on a case by case basis
damn I was going to get springs removed or plugs in one trigger for powershields but now idk
I think it's more worth the time to relearn how to soft-press for power shields anyway. It's easier on your hands.
ngl the title of this reads like a meticu vid
Yes... And I'm here for it.
Hax Fucking Money
Chillin will never live that post down.
I bet that Chillindude guy feels silly now
Chillindude has made a living off making outrageous claims lol
His B
20 years ago man, can you really blame him? lol
Not disagreeing here but just wanted to point out 2 small caveats:
2 chances of hitting a 1 frame window is not the same as 1 chance of hitting a 2 frame window.
While it's definitely better than 1 chance of hitting a 1 frame window, I would argue it's worse than a true 2 frame window.
My reasoning is that you can't guarantee that you won't accidentally hit L and R on the same frame, or 2 frames apart. You can minimize this chance with practice, but not completely eliminate it.
With certain characters, a 1 frame late airdodge will result in 1 wasted frame before being actionable (assuming shorthop). This means that timing your next input doesn't change depending on whether your airdodge is perfect or not, as long as you time it relative to the airdodge input, not relative to the jump input, which is the natural thing to do.
I dunno. You're probably right that it's not quite as good, but I don't think it's a very significant differance with how consistently you can get 2 inputs one frame appart. It's essentially the same as plinking in SF4 and good players got really consistent with those.
What Hax is talking about is not about human error but the nature of 1 frame windows being inconsistent.
expanding on point 1, and taking his assumption of a pro hitting a 1 frame input 80% of the time, in theory having 2 chances of it that are independent would have a 96% success rate, which is way better but much different than 99.9%.
he mentions in the video the "buffer" that you would ideally create so that 1 press is always slightly after the other though, and this could definitely make the odds a lot better or worse depending on how good at that you are. i think anywhere from 90-98% in practice after experience is a fair assumption with a base of 80.
@@falseheadgossip1700 Two inputs conciously spaced slightly apart is not the same thing as two separate tries (with 80% accuracy or whatever). It is actually much better.
Assuming you get the gap right between I1 I2 (Input 1 and input 2), and you can hit a 2 frame window, then you have a 100% success rate.
Now, if you mess up the gap so I1 & I2 happens on the same frame, you've still got 80% chance of hitting the window.
And if you mess up in the other direction (so there's a frame between I1 & I2) there is still a very good chance that either I1 or I2 would hit the window (let's say 2/3 for simplicity).
Then comes the most important question, how difficult is it to actually get I1 & I2 spaced one frame appart? I would argue that you could this result significantly more consistent than 80%, because pressing two buttons 1 frame appart is easier than hitting most other 1 frame windows.
#unbannHax$
You can also do the double input method using both Z and A to try to get frame perfect aerials (when not using the C-stick for the aerial). In fact, B button moves, grounded A button moves, and grabs seem like the only inputs that you can't "plink" (that's an SF4 name for a similar technique) in this way, as far as I can reason.
In that case you should aim to do the A press first and then the Z press to avoid jc-grab if you're a frame early.
That doesn't work because Z is only a macro, and therefore doesn't register another press if you're already holding A. On GCC, you can plink aerials using only the cstick by inputting an aerial with a cardinal direction on one frame, and inputting it again by passing into the quadrant on the next. Cstick aerials are similar to SDI where adding a new direction counts as a new input, but which aerial you get is still determined by the 50deg line.
You can actually pseudo plink 2 c-stick inputs by going straight in the direction you want the attack to go, then move it very slightly to the side without crossing over into the diagonal range and you will get a second c-stick input.
Similar motion, different concept. Plinking is an input exploit in SF4 done by pressing a button on one frame and a combination of buttons on the next frame where input priority gave the same button again. This was used because SF4 normally didn't let two of the same button input occur on adjacent frames, whereas in other games doing two-finger double-flick could make it happen -- though you'd have to release the button first. Melee has no restriction on adjacent inputs, so you're not "priority-linking" but neither does it have the restriction of releasing a button before that same input can be read again, so you can do the same sort of motion as a plink without having to "double-tap," which could let you double-input the B button if you played claw, I guess.
Hmm
the Lugi meta, changed forever
would love clips in slow-motion of your hands actually performing these techniques, they seem great in theory but I'd be hesitant to implement without any real demonstration
This is merle y a theorical demonstration, but on a GameCube controller this would definitely wear your hands down quicker. The fact that it's optimal doesn't mean it's ergonomic sadly 🥺
@@tsukimaru131 that was my thought too, but with a boxx or similar it might be realistic. That's why I want to see him do it haha
@@_cynth_wave fair point 🤔 b0xx potential is scary sometimes
Keep in mind he's normally playing on Melee v1.03 these days, so he's running Z jump, which might help.
On B0XX, it is ergonomic, but it's not a "free" input either, as L is pressed with left pinky. The other fingers and thumb of the left hand are simultaneously pressing buttons for direction/coordinates and one of two modifiers. It's a lot to time at once, even if it is more ergonomic.
i cant even do it 1% at the time it seems so shit to press both l and r
Thank you so much for all the content you make. Love you bro
One thing Rivals of Aether makes it way more accessable to wavedash is that the game allows you to do an airdodge while in a jumpsquad, so perfect wavedash is always happened since you don't need to aim straight down to performing it because you already on the ground, and makes it even easier to perform by simply pressing jump and dodge at the same time.
@@23billiejean1 Melee is a technical game. It's hard to mastered the game at all, not to mention you'll need a very good controller to do mostly precisely.
I'm just here liking all of the super technical comments like I'm in-the-know.
Just ordered a boxx
Thanks brotha
Congrats bro! Make sure you join the Discord through the "Contact Us" page on the website.
If anyone played street fighter 4, this is very reminiscent of plinking
hax fuckin money
is haxmoney still banned?
Yes sadly
@@Rob-sf4xy Wait why
@@ThePsymonator well there was this whole thing with leffen (now deleted videos abour leffen) he was kinda right but went to far and got banned from tourneys and he is now in a melee limbo everyone hears him but no one acknowledges him, it's fucked up.
@@Rob-sf4xy the edited version is still up I believe
@@ThePsymonator Because Leffen is so far up the smash community's ass it's not even funny.
you just wavedashed into my heart
I feel like this kind of plinking (if thats the right word?) between 2 buttons straddling a frame would be super difficult on a GCC, especially the triggers. Seems much more viable on box but I feel like it would destroy my hands on GCC trying to do this
You can mitigate that by using really soft membranes and full length trigger plugs. I would recommend something like that anyway even if you aren't using this technique because it reduces stress on the fingers and improves your input accuracy. I really wish that we had a traditional controller option that didn't suck :(
I don’t see how it would destroy your hands, but I totally agree that it’d be dummy difficult trying to time 2 trigger inputs on consecutive frames, especially w/o controller mods.
@@embly2319 yeah i use a short plug on my trigger, and not perforated pads but ones I like that are really soft. Still tho
if this seems like it'd destroy your hands on GCC then you shouldnt be able to wavedash normally anyways. all you're doing is pressing both triggers (and slightly delaying one of them) instead of just pressing one trigger. hell it'd probably be worse on B0XX cause of how weak the pinky is
How effective would you say the B0XX controller is for smash ultimate. Because I'm on a very hard to decide edge of either getting the boxx or the hitbox.
I really like the optimization on the boxx but at the same time I like being able to remap the buttons on the hitbox
definitely never buy a hitbox. the boxx has a lot of melee only mechanics built into it that he's outlined in his videos, but this is a big factor of the price. If you wait for a Frame1, its cheaper and not AS tailored to melee. Its also smaller and lighter. But for melee boxx is better imo
just never hitbox, its seriously so much worse
@@buffbear7890 I see. So I guess since I want to play ultimate I won't go with the boxx. From what I saw on the hitbox the designer software allows me to access virtually any location on the stick
Frame 1 I guess is quite nice. I'll look into it
B0XX has a mode specifically for ult and if you want remmapping you can always open it up and swap the button wires (its easy as fuck) or even use ults built in remmapper for any buttons aside from ndms
@@buffbear7890 how is it not as tailored to melee? the default mode is the exact same as the B0XX just without the pivot and sdi nerfs and its not clear if it even has a mode for ult
No one changes Melee's meta quite like Hax
yea im not gonna double press a button sorry i think thats weird
This method is not effective in the b0xx due to the layout. I think it would be uncomfortable since L is on the left pinky
its incredibly uncomfortable unless you have a fucking swole pinky but it is still optimal so people will work out their pinky till they're consistent with it
Another banger of a vid :D
this concept is definitely better spoken of than applied, not only because it adds un-necessary technical difficulty to an already technically difficult game, but because it creates a problem instead of solving a problem. it's also never assumed someone would mess up their timing by trying to plink SHOULDER BUTTONS instead of just using their already consistent timing for this input. it just solves a prooblem that does not exist, and it's merely fun to think about. personally, it has me imagining what other scenarios can use plinking in lieu of a frame perfect input or a little bit of mashing. i'm sure i'll apply it somehow. it's just kinda silly that you're talking about it as if it's actually a practical thing to do.
He might be thinking of boxx controllers. Hax was crazy technical even on gcc tho
@@nahometesfay1112 ah, definitely a b0xx could perform this with a lot less impracticality! it would be the same as other motions you already do for melee tech. that makes sense why he says it so surely haha
@@nahometesfay1112 - I mentioned this in another thread here, so I'll just share it again here:
Keep in mind he's normally playing on Melee v1.03 these days, so he's running Z jump, which might help.
On B0XX, it is ergonomic to hit both L and R for wavedashes, but it's not a "free" input either, as L is pressed with left pinky. The other fingers and thumb of the left hand are simultaneously pressing buttons for direction/coordinates and one of two modifiers. It's a lot to time at once, even if it is more ergonomic.
Wave dashing isn't that appealing, it seems kinda stupid.
Oh so it’s pianoing like in sf
RIP hands
It's 2022 and smash players have only JUST discovered plinking....
good vid
Doing God’s work!
Banger Video, 20XX is coming
You assume that people can't react to their own missed perfect wavedash and time their inputs in response. Part of melee is to recognize when you can act, mistake or not. Good players recognize that if they mess something up, they have to adjust their timing. If nothing, missing a perfect wavedash is just a timing mixup for when you're actionable and you could trick people with it.
when combined with melees input lag thats bordering the limits of human reaction times and is realistically too close to that threshold to ever be done in a real match
@@rockstar57HDI react to my own missed wavedashes all the time. It's not hard
@@wubbsdingus4320 that just means you're acting out of your wavedashes slow
@@rockstar57HD Yeah, intentionally. Doing the same thing everytime is what amateurs do. Acting out of something the same way/time is bad. I act out slowly on purpose. I act out instantly on purpose. Hax is promoting this notion that you always have to do everything instantly when in reality, you can just mix up your timings on everything, or even not act at all.
Can’t polling still f us over on console?
Technically, I think? If it does, it wouldn’t affect this any more than trying to do _anything_ frame perfectly.
yes its built into the game
greatly appreciate you hax, you were the first pro player my friend told me about when he got me into this game and i started spectating while you were still not competing. it has been great to see you come back and even better to see you making this great content (esp now that i'm enough of a melee nerd to understand it)
crazy how the community gaslights you, ignores your good faith input, generally treats you like shit and you continue this absurd intellectual grind to craft solutions to problems that are barely even beginning to be talked about purely out of your passion for the game.
Would be cool if the technicality of melee came from a high skill ceiling and not stupid requirement that hurt your hand. fun thing is people have been arguing for years that this skill ceiling is already high by nature and we could improve the game by making the controls understandable and accesible from the start, just as project m/+ achieved, but it seems the game is just a mess to fix without breaking it. Moral of the story play project+
Doesn't this mean you're instantly locking yourself out of a tech by doing two hard presses 1 frame apart? So you'd only want to do this if you weren't in a risky situation (trying to wd out of some form of shield pressure for instance). But if you try to do this only for other situations, you're at risk of muscle memory developing so you'll still end up doing it in bad scenarios.
Thats not how tech lockout works. If you hard press a trigger, the next 20 frames will be tech frames (you'll tech if thats possible) and the 20 frames after that will be tech lockout frames (techs cant be inputted).
If youre doing a double press wavedash, the later press will definitely occur during the first 20 frame tech period, which won't affect the tech lockout whatsoever
@@ultimamax - Thanks for clearing up the misinformation. The tech lockout lasts 20 frames whether you hard press 1 time or 10, so, you're "locked out of tech" every time you wavedash, which is normal.
@@ultimamax ah thanks, I misunderstood how stacking lockouts work. So a double press would essentially just add one frame of lockout to the normal 20 frame window?
@@ultimamax thats false. hard pressing at any point within the "tech window" will immediately cancel the window and lock you out of tech for 40 frames
it does but the benefit of always having perfect wavedashes outweighs the negative of not being able to tech if you get hit immediately after wavedashing
Ship my Boxx
!stock
I don't k now how to contact you but I need your help.
Leffen keeps harassing me and nobody is willing to listen or help.
Please hax, I don't know what to do anymore
I see Hax is still actively marketing the B0XX in his vids, eh?
You mean literally just the *intro slide? I don't think he mentioned it at all.
@@Pslamist He's advocating that GCC players plink both triggers, which can lead to heavy hand pain unless you have shortened and lubed springs.
@@millyawns thats still not saying "buy the boxx", regardless its his video and he would be advertising his creation, whats it matter?
@@millyawns - He's been HEAVILY focused on accessibility to the game and longevity of its players for years, with Arduinos, UCF contributions when the legality of the project fell through, LCD viable Melee, B0XX, fighting for soft-press L cancels, and now Melee V1.03... He's not going to start spreading misinformation to sabotage anyone.
@@millyawns you want him to start advocating that you chuck your GCC in a bin so that it cant cause you hand pain instead? you want him to start telling you not to jc shine on GCC cause the motion is bad for you? hes not trying to advertise his product by telling you about a more effective technique to do something hes just telling you that theres a better technique to do something