If Kiritsugu Emiya Was Written By Nasu
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- Опубліковано 18 гру 2024
- Did we forget who nasu is??
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I think the main difference between the two is Urobuchi's focus is primarily on exploring specific themes and using his characters to that end while Nasu puts more emphasis on extensive character studies and worldbuilding. It's why Urobuchi can be seen as going "over the top" because he's often more interested in having his characters represent abstract ideas than restrained realism, it just happens to be that the ideas he explores tend to be bleaker.
That's fundamentally the issue with Urobuchi's Saber. He wanted to deconstruct the notion of an ideal altruistic king probably because that's the aspect of the character that interested him and could be interwoven into the broader themes of Zero as a whole, and that somewhat overshadowed the rest of her characterization. Challenging her identity and worldview is an interesting direction for her character, but all you get in response from her is mounting uncertainty and frustration.
His handeling of Sabers character frustrates me so much lol.
@Tystolfo it ain't even saber, the real saber would get along with kiritsugu pretty well 😅😅
If kiritsugu was written by nasu he'd probably be the same yet slightly more hopeful, less edgy but has a more hopeful tone ngl
It would be more clear as to where Shirou gets his emotional/psychological characteristics
lol what? Kiritsugu himself in FATE stay night said that he was heartless but to save people and make them happy
@@aymenxeedan9606sure, but Fate Zero was ultimately not a hopeful story, more a tragedy than anything
If I wrote Kiritsugu I would have made his entire character arc about rizzing up Kirei
you can't it was love at first sight.
Based
Nah Kirei is best girl for *Shirou*
Kiritsugu is the step father
Just one problem: That would conflict with Nasu’s own writing. Would make interesting fanfiction though
I love how dark he writes stuff. I compair Nasu's dark works like OG tsuki and Kara to his fate Zero, but tbh I think Tsuki kind of tops it. Like bruh the stuff with Akiha and true shiki is super dark and disturbing
Its an interesting situation but I think it would be good idea to tackle a bigger point of contention with Zero which is Saber. It sort of reminds an issue I have with big comic books publishers. Where a writer will be great with handling the worldbuilding and creating characters to fit in that lore of the story they are telling BUT their handling of one legacy character can sour the experience for people already familiar with that legacy character cause its not in line with the how they normally are. It would be interesting to compare and contrast the version we got to get to the root of the issue.
I know this was touched on with If Shirou was in FGO, but I would like to see that scenario for other protagonists, like Prima Illya and Iori.
It be a neat event was made in conjunction with a Fate Stay Night remake.
If it were Hakuno twins FGO would be less harrowing because they'd just rizz up and then defeat everyone with their servants/talent lol
Or Aoko and Soujurou
@@darknessknows1235
Rizz up?
It's not that he's "unable to write characters who overcome", it's that he doesn't write braindead shonen. People who want to watch shonen-only got their brain fried into thinking the only valid stories are when some main character starts screaming, changes hair color and speed-blitzes his opponent for no reason.
Obviously when you write tragedy, OBVIOUSLY when you write tragedy that's titled "fate", some people are just fated to fail. That's the point of this whole literary genre. You may try, you may give it your all, you'll still fail exactly like it was fated. The beauty of it is in the attempt.
And that's the whole point of zero, it makes perfect sense thematically ; just like in Greek tragedy, EVERYONE knows the outcome of Zero. You go into episode 1 knowing full well what happens by the end. That is, by definition, tragedy, and it calls for tragic characters.
What was he even supposed to do, make Emiya overcome the whole plotline of him blowing up the city ? Overcome narrative continuity ? That's how you end up with half the fate franchise being a bunch of lolis doing weird dances in marvel-ahh parallel universes
Considering Heaven's Feel exists, I would think nothing major would change
I don't think he would be any different. Dudes basically how he was described in heavens feel, and nearly identical to Kotomine.
There's just some Lore inconsistencies with Fate/Zero... Like how in Fate/Zero Kiritsugu used 2 Command Seals instead of All 3 as Saber says in Fate/Stay Night Fate Route during the time she got ordered to Excaliblast the Holy Grail... It's Lore Relevant since those 3 Command Spells Usage kinda made Saber Resistant enough to Hold Back Caster's Command Seal Orders in Unlimited Blade Works Route...
In the Case of Kiritsugu... In Fate Route it is implied that Saber saw Kiritsugu use the Thompson Contender and Origin Bullets at least Once since she describes it to Shirou when they are looking for Mystic Codes that Kiritsugu used to own in order to prepare advantages for the Final Battle... Saber also says in that moment how Kiritsugu defeated a Servant on his own... In Fate/Zero... Saber only saw Kiritsugu with the Calico M950 and Kiritsugu never Directly defeats a Servant on his own...
Fate/Grand Order kinda confirmed that thing about defeating a Servant with the existence of Assassin Servant EMIYA Kiritsugu...
"Saber said he used all 3" Was this in the vn or in the anime? I read and watched them all but this is something I don't remember.@@jasperreyes5174
"But more to the point, he (at the time?) Is unable to write characters that can grow and overcome their fatal flaws."
I don't understand this at all. He did. Waver's entire subplot was all about Waver accepting that he doesn't need to be great in order to become Great. It's him accepting that he can be a subpar magus and still be proud of what he can do, which is the polar opposite of the kid who joined the grail war to prove he was a genius worthy of respect.
However, he also knows that some people DON'T grow past their fatal flaws. That's why they're, you know, fatal.
Someone with brain cells!
I will weigh in on the Saber side of this Zero discussion. I love Zero and I loved a lot of Saber stuff in it. The banquet, I love it, her bromance with Diarmuid, love it. But she always did feel a bit off.
I fell in love with her and Shirou's characters and relationship and growth in Stay Night. And something I loved most about Artoria is that she is 100% a hero. No ifs ands or buts, she is a hero. A champion. But she's pragmatic. Which is why's she's more of a war hero, a king.
In Zero, I always thought she was too hung up on her honor. I remember my first time watching Zero after finishing Stay Night, and when Iskandar rides up and makes his offer and she says it's an insult to her honor. I was just like, "I think it's just an insult to you, not just your honor." And I love honorable characters like that! But it doesn't feel quite like Artoria, you know?
It's nothing major to me, but it just feels off at a lot of points in Zero. For a while, I chalked it up to her changing between the two wars, but I honestly feel it discounts her character. We see that pragmatism in the 5th war and know it to be in her backstory as king. That's why Zero just feels inconsistent. Plus, I feel like the whole point of her growth in the 5th war is that all her life, every tragedy and hardship has only hardened her more to be set in her ways until Shirou.
My headcannon is that after her kingdom is destroyed, no longer a king in charge of a kingdom, chivalry became a crutch she leaned on to separate herself from Kiritsugu who was too uncomfortably similar to herself. For Saber, she wasn't able to save anything with pragmatism as people questioned her humanity so she tried a different approach in the 4th war to just have that approach fail too. Part of the tragedy is that the lesson Kiritsugu learns at the end of the 4th War is the same lesson Saber was already taught right before the 4th War.
Doesn't make any sense because saber was sacrificing villages to win wars when she was alive, urobuchi made her a crybaby for the sake of his plot
There's no need to pretend tbh. Just like how there are slight differences between zero and Nasu FSN, UroSaber is simply a different character. She's basically Saber Lily because Urobuchi has a fetish for that type of thing, and that's something he's admitted himself
I actually hated saber in stay night/UBW, but loved her in Zero. In stay night/UBW I was not a big fan of her character and she felt way too anime for my taste. Like seriously there's no fing way that I would believe you if you showed me a clip about saber interacting with Shiro in stay night and told me that she is actually king Arthur who ruled over an entire nation in the past and led his/her soldiers to war countless times. In zero she actually felt like an actual human being who would exist in the past and who would lead an army to battle. Just my two cents.
@@bloody5081 That's an interesting take. Though, if by "stay night/UBW" you just mean you had only experienced the UBW anime, then I guess I can see that, because she is not a focus in that show and I do recall thinking of her as more of a cutie anime girl than I was used to, particularly in the beginning.
However, my understanding of her was very complete before watching the UBW show. So to me, her depiction in Zero actually seems more one dimension as she is portrayed to be more of the one-note honorable saint/knight rather than a practical knight king who maintained heroic chivalry.
I know bits and pieces have come up in other videos but a dedicated video on how being a Hero is deconstructed might be interesting using the protags of the different fate adaptations Zero, Stay/Night, Apocrypha etc.
I love videos like these it helps bring nuance to these heavily argued topics in the fanbase
I never thought of that Saber point before, she wouldn’t really have anything to overcome plus you could also head canon and say that she changes because of the events from Zero to Stay Night
I would just have preferred if her reactions were a little different, it kind of felt like her chivalrous knight side was cranked up to 11 to the point where it overridden her common sense but that’s just my two cents
I have no clue how these people say she has zero chivalry/honor though, when it is shown a little in Stay Night with the Kojiro fights so I have no clue how these people say she’d be completely fine with murdering like Kiritsugu
Like she isn’t a cold hearted killer, that was the point of the Fate route, to peel back that layer and show how much of that burden has been placed on her, murdering her own son with her own hands still stung, she just had to do what she had to do
She wouldn’t have done it if it could have be prevented
She killed entire villages to feed her soldiers when it was absolutely necessary to win wars. A bunch of scumbag mages shouldn't matter to her
tbh the problem is that people try and pretend the development from zero to FSN is somehow okay and makes sense. Like, if we're being real Zero Saber is just a bad character and makes no sense from a timeline sense
If you'd like to see a direct comparison between Urobuchi and Nasu writing and get an idea of how Fate/Zero may have differed, look at Fate/Accel Zero Order. This was the Fate/Zero collab story in Fate/Grand Order. It's very good. It's about adult Waver going back in time to the timeframe of the Fourth War and trying to fix all his younger self's mistakes. There's a plot excuse for this, but Waver's really just out to fix his regrets. He does various things like team up on Gilgamesh when Gilgamesh is off-guard at the banquet of heroes and kill him, trick El Melloi1 and his wife to leave the war to save their lives, hunt down Caster and Ryuunosuke before they can summon a demon, and team up with multiple servants to try to avoid the grail being poisoned. Doing this causes Iskandar to reject him and declare him a coward, which causes Waver great mental anguish. In the end, Kariya is incapable of controlling berserker and the grail gets corrupted anyway, spitting out a bunch of Irisviel copies, one of whom eats Zouken. Waver grants all of his magical power to his younger self to fight the corrupted manifestation of the grail, and Iskandar finally acknowledges him, bringing him to tears. Also, Iskandar cuts off Kariya's hand and forces him to relinquish his control of Berserker, burns down the Matou mansion and saddles Kariya with the responsibility of adopting and raising Sakura. There is no Kiritsugu because it's an alternate timeline where he never met Irisviel, and Waver's machinations keep Kirei out of the picture.
Why do I bring this up? Because Urobuchi said the ending was Nasu meddling. He'd written a much darker ending and Nasu came in and said 'no, do this'. We can take this to mean that Urobuchi would have had Iskandar reject Waver for being too different as an adult, and we likely would not have gotten the scene where he rescues Sakura, as it's a random and unnecessary scene that just serves to make the ending happier. So we can directly look at Nasu meddling here.
Also we have a little bit more clues than just this when we look at ways that Fate/Zero diverged from the original Fate/Stay Night facts:
1 - Tokiomi was a playful father who played pranks on his children. The reason why Rin's clocks were all 2 hours off when she did the summoning was because Tokiomi's spell made it that way as a playful prank and a subtle jab that 'if you can't even notice this you're not ready for the holy grail war'
2 - Saber didn't hate Kiritsugu's personality, she hated that he forced her to destroy the grail. According to Fate/Stay Night, the ONLY time that Kiritsugu communicated with Saber was to issue her commands via command seal. This is why she says 'how can anyone know a person merely by three commands alone?' - this likely indicates that both Kiritsugu and Saber were more mechanical in Fate/Zero. Kiritsugu didn't bother talking to his servant at all, and Saber had no clue anything was wrong until suddenly he commanded her to destroy the grail.
3 - The Fuyuki fire was not caused by the holy grail being destroyed, but by Saber and Gilgamesh's final battle. Making the fire caused by destroying the grail makes it Kiritsugu's direct fault that the fire happened. In reality, it shows the sheer magnitude of the battle between Gilgamesh and Saber.
In summation we can make a few guesses to how Fate/Zero would differ:
1 - Tokiomi would be a better person and a better dad, although he would still be betrayed by Kirei and murdered. The distant father who didn't care about what happened to his daughter would not exist. We would likely see more emphasis on the fact that he chose that life for Sakura because he believed it was the best life he could give her, as well as his more playful side.
2 - Saber and Kiritsugu would be less tragic and conflicted and more machine-people, as Nasu really loves his machine-people. We see a glimpse of how he might write Kiritsugu in the Mind of Steel ending, where Kirei narrates it that Shirou becomes an unfeeling weapon who simply does whatever it takes to win.
3 - Kiritsugu likely would be shown in a generally more sympathetic light, and Saber would not have her ideals challenged so harshly. Someone like Waver would be a necessary protagonist because Kiritsugu and Saber wouldn't be interesting enough, especially since Irisviel would have been the third partner in that. Despite being less emotional, Kiritsugu likely would have his efforts shown to be effective, simply dispassionate and imperfect.
Tokiomi's testing Rin isnt really a on the level of a prank done by a playful father.
Rin literally says she doesnt remember him being that type.
And the fire WAS caused by the Grail. Gil and Saber still fought in a fire but of a lower scale.
And I feel people entirely miss Kiritsugu's characterization in FSN. He would be worse. All we know from the survivors is that he didnt give a fuck. It was Uobuchi that wrote him to evacuate an entire hotel, if anyone remembers.
Saber and him should have n reason to be on bad terms(or good) before the final order to destroy the grail.
@@literallyvergil1686 No, in the original VN the fuyuki fire was caused by Saber and Gilgamesh fighting. That's why in the original Fate anime opening you can see them fighting in the fire. This was later retconned because Fate/Zero changed it. I'm not the one 'trying to make him playful', Nasu literally said it.
@@ssjokg4952 I'm not the one who called Tokiomi playful. Nasu is the one who called Tokiomi playful. He specifically said it was a playful little prank that he played on Rin, and commented that Fate/Zero changed Tokiomi's personality.
You're just blindly asserting things for no reason. Kiritsugu is NEVER suggested to be evil, he's pragmatic. Saber hates him because he made her destroy the grail. They didn't interact at all until those commands, so she had zero impression of him beyond the fact that he was ruthless and made her destroy the grail. Archer repeatedly characterizes Shirou's desire to save as many people as possible as being just like Kiritsugu's. Assuming that Kiritsugu would just randomly kill a bunch of people for no reason because 'he didn't care' is completely incongruent with his character in FSN.
@@Thedarkbunnyrabbit He also made Rin say that this guy never made jokes and his only time acting like father was the ONE time he patte her head before he died.
Rin also talks about him in UBW when comparing him to Shirou's dad.
So we know very well he wasn't a playful guy. Maybe he wasn't as bad as Zero shows but he wasn't a normal father that was beyond giving his daughter to a living ghoul.
Never said Kiritsugu was evil or that he would randomly kill people.
Let's not try to spin his character into something else. Results over emotions. Being pragmatic....which Zero ignores and makes him evacuate people and even have him comment on that.
Archer is bitter and talks lots of shit all the time. The fact is Shirou won't just kill many people to get his target, something we know Kiritsugu would do.
@@Thedarkbunnyrabbit except not. Saber in Fate route and Gil in think both in Fate and UBW specifically states that the big fire was a result of her destroying the grail.
Yes they did fight in flames but their fight wasn't the one that killed 500 people and was known as the Fire of Fuyuki.
Again Shirou talks about Kiritsugu and what he probably felt if the fire was his fault.
There is no reason for all of that just for the fire to be a fight between Servants that hardly set their battlefield in flames when we see the fighting.
I just wanted to see pre-fire Shirou and his parents. It would have been cool contrast with how he is in Fate Stay Night. Would his Origin and Element be different? Then what would it be? What would Shirou's goal/hobbies/career choice be like without the fire and with his parents alive? That was my only gripe with Fate/Zero, I actually enjoyed it.
There's some theory that Kara no Kyoukai's Movie 5 Enjou Tomoe is a Parallel World Shirou who never met Kiritsugu...
@@jasperreyes5174 Apparently there is a theory that the Fate Prototype Fragments Archer's Master is Parallel World Shirou's mom while his name is Luca who passed away...
@@Sleepyduo38 There's that as well...
@@Sleepyduo38 There's also the Theory that Arihiko inui from Tsukihime is a Parallel World Shirou...
fate/extra best fate
I think that if Nasu was going to write Kiritsugu I think that potentially the way that he goes about being a hero of justice could change, like the way he fights and the way he "saves" people. In my mind Nasu would use Kiritsugu as the "blueprint" of what Shirou eventually became. So I imagine he could've been a mercenary similar to what we see in Emiya's future, saving alot more people but then eventually abandoning all his ties to the point illya and irisviel are the last ones left (this probably means no Maiya) until he ends up losing those as well. Kinda would tie into the "Shirou copied Kiritsugu's dream to the point he was cursed with the same fate, saving nobody" BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY WE COULD'VE HAD A KIRITSUGU WITH NO GUNS GALORE AND MORE ZA WARDO. he would probably still be an hitman anyway probably in a clan, which then motivated him to kill them all as they were evil or smthing. Nasu likes assassin dads
To be fair he was willing to kill the Mc’s in the ending of Kamen Rider Ryuki, so I am not surprised he would do this with Kiritsugu.
Um… Um… I think that you are wrong in that, since I remember that Gen Urobuchi actually worked in the script for Kamen Rider Gaim, not Kamen Rider Ryuki.
Gen did not write Ryuki. That was Inoue.
@@trungthanh8586 whoops my mistake, I though he wrote Ryuki.
Fate/Zero does took inspiration from Kamen Rider Ryuki and Urobutcher wrote Kamen Rider Gaim.
@@shauqiharris2772 Yeah, definitely feels similar to the rider war.
The only thing i could see changing is that Kiritsugu would be a little more happier when at home. For the entire story i can only see being changed is the screen time, El Meloii might get shafted in the story but Maya and Iry would get more flushed out
I honestly thought he was written by nasu himself.
I mean I am pretty sure most of the ideas, characters, and scenarios were from Nasu anyway. So in a way he was.
Zero feels so much more real than stay night even though it also seems more thematic (in zero, people are single dimentioned philosophical ideas)
As question.
I wonder how would be the events of Fate/Stay Night, if Kiritsugu would somehow managed retrieves his daughter Illya after Fate/Zero?
Depends on if he wipes out the Einzberns on his way out or not. Illya would be a proper big sister to Shirou and would probably age properly if Kiritsugu managed to get to her in time before her body was modified. Shirou would probably also be more proficient in magic with his big sis helping him. Kiritsugu would still die but perhaps Shirou wouldn't receive the Hero of Justice wish, maybe he could resolve himself to protect his loved ones instead.
Next up is the actual Grail war. Herakles wouldn't appear for Illya since it'd be without a catalyst so it's possible that she'd summon someone completely different. And the Einzberns could also participate with their own homunculus representative if Kiritsugu didn't kill them all.
@@psychophate It would be interesting that in this new timeline, Illya end summoning Saber, if Shirou lends her Avalon. While that the new homunculos of the Eizberns summons Berserker.
And as Saber will has a Master capable to sustain her properly, Artoria will be OP in Illya route.
u should watch prisma illya
The stuff with Kiritsugu is fine, but Zero Saber would be drastically different if it were with Nasu.
Zero was written after Stay Night in which Nasu wrote Saber as a cold and rather pragmatic person who was dedicated to accomplish her goals. And he wrote her that way for BOTH her backstory and her character in FSN. Zero is the odd one out due to Urobuchi changing her into a naive knight with chivalry as her main priority.
She would rather have fun dueling with Lancer in Zero than save her country after seeing for herself its downfall and having to cut down her own country men while the people she spent years working with killed each other. Zero isnt even consistent with itself when considering that previous sentence.
A Nasu Zero Saber would likely be drastically different since what we see from FSN and her backstory, she'd be okay with a lot of Kiritsugu's actions besides probably the needless cruelty in Kayneth and his wife's deaths.
Tldr; Kerry is fine but Saber is an entirely different character between what Nasu wrote her as in her beginnings and ending compared to what Zero placed in the middle.
Attempt 71 of me asking you to do a video on white wolf's world of darkness
Wait, so this whole time, Nasu didn’t make fate zero?
Not Completely...
Urobuchi joked that Nasu stayed at his house while he worked on the Novel of Fate/Zero...
Nasu even said that Fate/Zero is not a Direct Prequel to Fate/Stay Night and is another story in a Parallel Timeline/World...
No but Nasu did supervised Urobutcher when he was writing Zero and Fate/Zero isn't 100% direct prequel but story set in another alternate timeline.
You need to create a video With a list of the strongest characters and the fate universe. You can also do the other universes as well all the whole nazu
What would be sabers character arc if she was written by nasu, how would she react to the events of zero realistically?
I'll comment about 4:45 since i really like madoka mágica, i wacthed that like... 7 times... AND IF GETS DUBBED IN MY LANGUAGE I'LL DO IT AGAIN. Urobuchi knows how to make his characters overcome fatal flaws. A good example is Sayaka Miki, she stars trying to understand if her wish is selfish or not, than, after her "veteran" dies, she tries to take her place and become what in her eyes is "a good magical girl" but she never saw the flaws of her veteran like madoka did, so sayaka make a selfish wish, try to justify to her self that it's selfless, but when her ideals are confronted she falls into despair and become a wicth (she basically dies), but in the sequel movie, rebellion, she is brought back due to circustances and she really got better, she understoid the nature of her wish and herself, she can even use her wicth form like a familiar as a symbol that she conquered her despair.
Sorry if wrote something wrong...
Urobutcher does love bittersweet endings, didn't he?
Probably would've had some mana transfer exercise with saber somehow
I feel Like Kiritsugu would be even more Like archer if Nasu did him
You know that nasu already discussed this in the og VN lol
And can you make a detailed video on domination magic that used your madness and how it works what kind of spell can be used and have a good day.
If I wrote Kiritsugu I would made him a young master candidate and basically a bit of a Constantine (dc character) personality
Hey i have an idea it might be a little dumb but i thought what if shirou when he tries to scan Ea he doesn't give up and counties to try while Ea and gilgamesh power is rising and being used so by all three powers collide with shirou trying to see in Ea and gilgamesh and also the holy grail he and gil see the truth of the world and go to a distant past with gil power beign sealed and they overcome trails together i think it will be a cool fanfiction
WATCH REVENGER
I'm kinda glad kirisugu is the way he is.
Exactly! If you would to make him different. You basically be writing a completely different story. It wouldn't be Fate/Zero or a prequel to Stay/Night. It’ll be some weird alternative timeline or what if.
Do people want Kiritsugu to be a good master/partner to Saber? Make him be a Saint? A merciful person? I don’t get what people want.
@@sleepylmguy9968eh zero kiritsugu are already an weird alternative version which is different from what Nasu had in mind of prequel of stay night. Zero is not a direct prequel to stay night, the majority event that take place in that series does line up with stay night but the details is slightly different which why zero is an alternate prequel to stay night rather than direct one.
tbh many ppl think zero is the best and i can understand it
To tell you straight up. I love how Kiristsugu was portrayed. I would NOT CHANGE SINGLE THING. Why would you? Like generally asking why do you want to change anything. Mind you this is coming from someone who really enjoys Stat/Night. I watched all the routes/adaptations of it. In broadcast order. Loved watching all of them. Even managed to read the VN in between the airings.
I remember there was a time when the Fandom was sort of dogging on Zero. Like straight hating on it. Meat munching on it really. And I NEVER Understood why! It was a solid show. I love how Gen wrote Kiritsugu. The rivalry between Him and Kirie. I love the Rocky partnership with Kiritsugu and Saber. Mind you Both of these things lead up to Stay/Night. Saber said she didn't get along with Kiritsugu. And it shows exactly that! Kiritsugu and Kirie fought in the 4th war. And it showed exactly THAT! We are told the 4th war ended badly in tragedy. Guess what everyone? Oh yeah, Zero shows exactly that.
So to anyone who has issues with Zero. I really got to know. what more do guys want!? What NEEDS to be change SOOO Badly? And don't show the whole Reddit post about Saber being bad. I read it a long time ago and it really ‘whatevs’.
To tell you, the only two things I would change in Fate/Zero:
1. Saber
2.Fate/Zero fanboys.
Zero fanboys somehow have this superiority complex. They typically think Fate Zero is supreme, masterpieces, that Kiritsugu is peak character building, while thinking Stay night is trash, "Cheap Harem Hentai", and any kind of insults you can find from edgelords' mouths. They also hate Shirou for many reasons.
About Saber in Fate/Zero ? She is literally what Fate/zero edgelord fans think Shirou is lol. There is just something too different between the two Saber.
I don't think the fandom really hated Zero. I think it was more of a response to anime only fans hating on Stay Night. The anime adaptations for Stay Night have a reputation for being lackluster compared to the VN, and with how good Zero's adaptation was it resulted in anime only fans hating on Stay Night and treating it like it was Zero's shitty, unnecessary sequel. Meanwhile Zero was considered the perfect anime and Kiritsugu's fans acted like the current Eren Jaeger fans.
As a result, the fans of Stay Night got pissed off and started dogging Zero. They called it edgy and talked down about Kiritsugu, just hating on Zero in general as a sort of revenge against the fans. There's multiple videos discussing how the Stay Night adaptation changed how the fans viewed the series. Tsiah already touched on this in his controversies video.
So it's not that people hated Zero, it's more that people got defensive about Stay Night and tried to knock the Zero fans down a peg by shit talking Zero.
It honestly feels like both of you are kinda right. Both Fandoms had their extremists throwing shade
Simple, Gen Urobuchi's style of writing characters is very one-dimensional. Nasu wrote characters usually with multiple facets to them, made them more like actual people rather than simple personalization or mouth pieces for ideologies like Gen's characters.
You have no standards, kiritsugu in zero was sloppily written, his character was butchered and sanitized from the enigmatic figure he was described as in FSN, his relationship with the rest of the cast were awful, and that is not even mentioning how cringeworthy his "epiphany" was at the end.
Probably the main critique someone could do to Urobuchi is that he lacks range in the sense that he only can write tragedies even within a story but tbh that is not that harsh of a critique when he can write tragedy really well
It's like telling a coach, "you're a bad comedian"
@@TsiahIV I was thinking more like saying Stephen king is a bad writter because he can't write romance but yeah, exactly
Another banger video
@9:01 I wanna see that lol
Thank you for the video and can you make a video about what kind of true Magic Shirou can have if he reached the route and what will the power and abilities it might have and have a good day.
Probably first true magic
@@safeday150 Thank you and it have to be unique to Shirou Emiya and have a good day.
Look up the 1 live action show that's close to Fate Zero that Gen did... Kamen Rider Gaim. Bro had to do a dark yet a good ending Rider show with dark themes... using fruits. And the main protagonist there overcame his flaws HEAVILY. So yea, he knows how to write characters.
Weird question to ask, but how would Gilgamesh fair up againsts the servants in lostbelt? (Usually powerhouses such as Arjuna, Oberon, etc)
Since everyone knows that Gil is known to be the king of all heroes, I'd still think just how far he's able to go, assuming he has the power to back it up
I believe we would measure up and match the characters you mentioned. But his trump card would still be his Gate of Babylon and Enkidu. Restraint them if he has too and, as usual, rain down noble phantasms before the first.
I can't wait for that Zero Saber video. Reddit really has a hate boner for her there and I mostly feel like its because they can't see the forest for the trees when it comes to that Banquet of Kings scene. She didn't freeze up because Iskandar was supposed to be right, or she was wrong, she froze up because he hit a sore spot that triggered PTSD. Zero I think will always be my favorite work in the Nasuverse.
Just gonna start with this: I liked Zero, but Saber is not part of what I enjoyed.
The banquet is just one of many things that make Zero Saber disliked.
The first issue is that Zero Saber is a fundamentally different person to FSN Saber. While it may seem to make sense that Zero Saber's character would lead into FSN's, that ignores how Saber's backstory was written to be in line with how cold and pragmatic she is in FSN. It makes Zero the odd one out. FSN was written first and included her backstory, but Urobuchi wrote Saber to be a naive knight when she never was in her backstory leading up to the grail wars.
The Banquet becomes an egregious example of that mismatched characterization where we've already seen her wish get criticized by Shirou in FSN with her outright rejecting the notion of giving up even in the face of someone she's grown very close to. Compare that to how shaken up she is with someone who she should give zero craps about. She didn't retaliate when there's so much that could've been said against Rider like how he never actually managed a kingdom and just kept conquering until his death, and then his nation immediately fell apart.
Take for example how contradictory her sense of honor is with her wish and the well being of others. When Caster's kaiju threatens to destroy the city. She tries to prevent Lancer from breaking his spear so that she could use her NP. There are many innocents in danger and she'd rather stop Lancer for the sake of her honoring his hard earned wound he inflicted on her. She would be healed, Lancer would be weaker without that second spear, and she'd be able to save the city. There are no downsides for her and yet she'd reject that for the sake of honor despite the fact that she wishes to save her country and would be in a better state to accomplish that wish if she just lets him break his spear.
There's much more examples to critique, but I'll stop there. The main idea is that Urobuchi replaced Saber's character with that of a naive knight for the sake of clashing ideals with other characters and only superficially connects to FSN Saber if you don't take into account that it's inconsistent with her backstory.
I think the 'hate boner' for Zero Saber is completely justified if you were a fan if her character in Stay Night. She acts way too differently to even believe that they can be the same character. Her chivalry was ramped up so high it eclipses all her other traits. And it can feel insulting to have her character protrayed in such a lackluster way.
I will say however for the story that Fate Zero was, she fits her role well, assuming Fate Zero existed in a vacuum, she'd be an okay to pretty good character. A little bland compared to others, but with an interesting dynamic with Kiritsugu that climaxes with Lancelot. I also remember liking her downtime moments with Irisviel.
The best thing to come out of the Banquet of Kings scene was a callback in another Nasuverse work for a completely seperate character. I do think Zero is amazing ( though not my favourite piece of the Nasuverse, that honor goes to Hollow Ataraxia) but Saber was easily the part i enjoyed the least.
@@psychophate she killed entire villages to feed her soldiers when necessary to win wars, zero saber crying about honor while fighting against actual scumbags is stupid
@@thatitalianlameguy2235 Exactly! It's like she completely switches personalities like A->B->A between her backstory, Zero, and FSN
the "true magus" described in fsn seemed a lot more interesting than the sanitized shonen protag author's pet that we got
Yes, there is probably a small difference in Kiritsugu if Nasu wrote him, but there are inconsistancies with Fate Stay Night that make a great impact in Zero overall, example it's common knowledge that Kirei was the master of Archer... Not Assasin, Archer. Kiritsugu doesn't seem to truly believe there is a way to save everyone in Zero, it should be more like Emiya until his death, he believes it's possible, he just doesn't have the power to do it, instead of how he is that, he has just given up and believe the only way to save humanity is the Holy Grail.
This is more, at less for me, my problems with Urobuchi, it's the inconsistancy with what's know, trying to play with it in a very sloppy way (Seriously with how easy it's for Kiritsugu to obtain police information, Rin would had found out the truth far quicker then Kirei wanted). I like some of the stuff he brings in, but the inconsistancies are too many for me to ignore. And that's primarily what i want, it would had been dark, but not in the edgy sense that Urobuchi does, in the introspecting kind of sense that Nasu does, because what Nasu shines on, it's not the edgy more surface level, it's the deep psychological, destroy an individual level.
It's why, Heaven's Feel it's in my opinion, it's the weakest of the routes, because it's clear that they were against a clock trying to fit too much in a small space, and because of that Nasu couldn't go properly into deeply destroying and rebuilding Shiro's mentality, and because of that, that Shiro comes out as a simp in terms of his character, instead of as a new person build from understanding what his old self couldn't do.
Fate/Zero is one of my all-favorite shows. It delivers a great story and pulls no punches.
Ngl had no idea Nasu didn't write Zero
Saber x Kiritsugu best ship
The only thing I wish was done different was she making argue better against Iskander. She's a king that protected her kingdom unlike Iskander who was on offensive most of. the time. She'll still fine the way she is, it's just the fact she got dog walked by rider and Archer.
Preach.
Zero is my favorite Fate story. It's what helped me pick the franchise back up because the Deen version turned me so off from the whole story. To discredit Uro in any way is to also discredit any of the oversight Nasu had in giving this the okay. People need to realize any time a spinoff of the Nasuverse is made, Nasu is very aware of it, and sometimes is a part of the building blocks of the Plot, Cast and even designs. Anyone who says Uro did bad need to say something that isn't so ignorant.
Nasu had to approve prisma illya's fanservice shit and fate apocrypha. Just because he was fine with it doesn't make it good
Also just because Nasu says it's okay doesn't really mean anything. Nasu famously does his best to not restrict other writers as much as possible. It's why we got the Zero/FSN differences and UroSaber
ku should fought angra maiyu as fist fight in final or gilgamesh lol