Water Pipe and Gas Line touching causing current to go everywhere
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- Опубліковано 7 вер 2024
- Wow! What a day I brought out my electrician and we found the water pipe touching the gas line and this alone created high magnetic field in the home once the blower from the furnace came on the magnetic fields were even higher. The next step is to cut the water pipe and get the bond wire off the water pipe and have only one grounding conductor to the outside next to the meter. 6 Gage is code we like 1(0) to give more surface area for the RF to go to ground. So the water pipe current was going through the water heater following the least path to the blower then to the neutral then back to the electric panel which i Got 3 Amps of net current on the Furnace Branch circuit.
2.9 Amps on the A/c and Furnace Branch Circuit 2.9 Amps On the Bond Wire and 2.9 Amps on Water Pipe by the Furnace this is probably a Neutral to Ground Code Violation at the Furnace.
Power Off all branch circuits Because of no current everything went to Zero except the water pipe dropped to.10 amps which is coming in from the grid on the water pipe
What we have here at the end of the day is the neutral is touching the chassis of the furnace along with the ground. The neutral for health reasons should not touch the chassis because of the net current it creates which current can cause high magnetic fields and will travel on every wire like an antenna. If the bond wire was not attached to the water pipe these reading would have been much lower due to the bond at the Furnace, it had another path to the water pipe and then jumped on the bond wire to the panel then it goes everywhere from that point to the rest of the house.
I was using two NFA and one was set on peak and the other was set on RMS so that is why i thought i had a problem with the NFA set On peak because the measurements will only increase after I get another higher reading
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The first thing that seems odd, is the use of soldered copper pipe for a gas line. I wasn't aware that this is/was ever an approved installation method/material combination for either propane or natural gas. Soft copper tubing with flare fittings, sure; hard copper with solder, not so much.
Second, both the gas and water lines should be bonded to the electrical ground, nearest their entry point from the outside, when they are conductive. In this case, it appears that the required bonding isn't present, based on the symptoms and brief view near the water meter.
Third, something with both an electrical and water connection seem to have a current leak to ground and may have a bad ground connection on the electrical side. The likely appliance culprits are dishwasher, refrigerator, washer, any point-of-use instant hot water heaters, or a dryer with a water inlet for a steam cycle. A non-appliance possibility is a nail or screw that has gone through a wire and is just touching a water line (arcing would be likely). Or finally, a wire is in direct contact with the water line and has worn or broken insulation.
And the final point is that electricity doesn't take the path of least resistance, it takes all potential paths. The current perceived on any given path is proportional to the the inverse of the resistance of the path versus the resistance of all paths in the system.
The copper lines look brazed, which is fine
type L thick wall copper for gas lines has been legal for about 40 or so years. connection must be high temp solder.
@@kurtzimmerman1637 "Any fuel gas lines installed using copper tube must be ((brazed)) using a filler metal containing less than 0.05% P (phosphorus) and a melting temperature greater than 1000 degrees F. " - from 2020.
Very well explained.
@@rcstl8815that's what he meant by high temp solder. Sometimes called silver solder is actually b cup brazing rod.
As a lineman for the power company, nothing surprises me... I have seen quite a few homes with major problems from the combination of an open neutral, and a poor house ground.
The electrical code and previous practice collides. Old gas lines utilized a plastic insulator bushing between the underground line and the regulator to prevent corrosion due to ground currents. Now, the electrical code mandates the gas pipes be grounded as well as the water pipes, and both connected to an earth-driven ground rod. Unfortunately, the gas company has been running plastic underground lines here in California, so while it’s brass above ground, a foot underground they’re plastic,so no actual electrical ground ability. Fun times!
I've been a cable guy for 18 years. I've seen a handful of melted coax cables. A couple weeks ago was the worst I'd seen. The ENTIRE aerial drop was melted from the house to the tap! He said it was smoking the night before.
I didn't touch anything and called the power co on behalf of the customer, figuring it was an open neutral. They came out and proved it safe to the meter, so I replaced it. I'm guessing the fault cleared itself when it stopped smoking, but I told him to call an electrician ASAP if it happens again.
You either have a loose neutral on the utility side of the main neutral bond or you have another neutral bonded with ground somewhere else in the house.
EMF can create some of these charge effects, but for a service ground 3 amps is normal for the amount of current that takes a path through the earth back to the service. You do not want current on the gas line, though. The two service ground locations are the cold water main and ground rod(s).
Or some appliance wired live to ground.
Nice, water and gas supplier are sending not just water and gas, but free electricity as well.
The gas and water are generally required to be "touching" according to NEC. They are bonded to the incoming grounded conductor at the service. The current is running thru them because of a fault condition in the service grounded conductor or possibly in a main panel if it is an older 3 wire system.
It is simple but complicated and I have seen it several times.
That’s wild. I installed a ton of LED’s in a night club, controlled by DMX data, and as I added more and more drivers, things started acting weird, and once I got to around 50, all the drivers failed, pretty much at once. Most still worked, but we were unable to control them with data. Some failed totally, and while investigating a huge spark jumped to the MC cable next to it and burned the surface, and it sounded like a small firecracker. We were using the cheap power pack 24v power supplies, so I started testing things and when I tested its 24v+ on the tip, output, in addition to having its regular output, it also had a few volts AC when referenced to ground. Then, we tested AC voltage from the ring, negative output and again, we showed varying amounts of voltage. It seems that somehow this extra voltage was traveling through the cat5 cables from one LED driver to the next and the volts were adding up as they went. At first if I cut out the 3 pairs of cat wire that weren’t needed, the issue seemed to no longer cause damage, but again the more drivers added, the worse it got. At one point I measured over 50 volts. So, we changed to metal power supplies that, I guess are grounded on both sides and all was well, after replacing 50 bad drivers and 50 power supplies. I also tried connecting the negative DC output of the power bricks to ground, which seemed to work for a while, but eventually the power bricks let us know they didn’t like having their outputs grounded. But wow, your situation is wild, I see the amps, but what kinds of voltage were you seeing?
Ahhh the joys..
Switching power supplies cause circulating current on the neutral leg. Additionally if they are not properly grounded the grounding and metal case on the power supply can rise to maybe 90 volts AC to ground. I pert near got electrocuted on a big power plant job where the outlets for the control room computers were not grounded correctly. I touched a computer case and touched a control panel that was grounded and got 90 vac thru my heart. Ouch.
Possible sources of the voltage and current on that gas line: Fault in the furnace or blower motor, bad grounding of the furnace, partially grounded compressor in the condensing unit (or ungrounded condensing unit) check for current on the lineset, ungrounded gas stove, water ground bond missing or corroded, no ground bond on gas line, faulty neutral to the home.
Find out what it is, that two amps of current is extremely dangerous.
Wow. The water meter was moved and changed at my later grandfather's house. The bonding wire was not put back correctly. Well it made a situation which we found out as a family like two days after. We smelled a small burning smell occasionally. Couldn't see any thing. The house was a wood Tudor with fuse boxes. We couldn't find it but my dad and family came back after we went home. There was a bar with glowing red under the floor by the back wall. The fire dept said they don't usually show up to a house intact. Smoke builds up from the burning and the smoke explodes and would have blown the wall open. They made it safe shot some power off. Then had the electrician come by to see that that water meter want connected and the house was looking for a ground.
The gas line is bonded at the equipment which is bonded at the panel, and the water line is bonded at the panel. Why is he looking at the supply for the source of the leakage current? Hookup the ammeter and shut off each breaker one at a time and see if it goes away. If you kill the main and still see current then you have an outside source...or a broken meter that's not reading right.
In the uk it is the law that the water and gas lines are bonded together.
No, it's not. It was, but now with plastic inserts in incoming service it's no requirements to bond it even if the rest of the pipes inside are metal.
I fully realize that utility codes vary wildly. I’m in the Louisville Kentucky area and have installed quite a few house gas line systems. Thumbnail sketch: Copper piping is not allowed. Period. Flexible stainless or rigid black threaded steel piping only. Generally speaking, you can run 1” pipe for any length, 3/4” for 25’, and 1/2” for 10’. Use reducer couplings and not bushings and include drop legs for interior terminus locations with approved shut-off valves in the same room as appliances and within ten feet. I have seen copper sweat fittings used in gas piping once in my city. It was in a rental property and the buyer had paid for a home inspection (which I consider to be a bad joke in 99% of inspection reports I’ve read) that made no mention of this egregious code violation. Oh well....
Open or high impedance neutral, possibly not even in your house, could be on the POCO's side or even a neighbor
not magnetic fields, or EMF
Get the electric utility company out there *PRONTO* - they have an open neutral.
The current is going OUT through the water line, seeking a ground.
I was thinking they should start flipping breakers off then check ground / neutrals on the equipment that changes the readings. Also make sure any ground straps on meters and valves are in place.
It's odd about water pipe and gas piping. When we wired houses in Palm springs CA in the 70's, as electricians, we were required by code to bond the electrical ground to the cold water pipe and the gas piping. I guess that's not a thing any more.
There is an open neutral or improperly grounded device somewhere and line current is doing its best to get to ground.
Water lines and gas lines are supposed to be bonded to the building ground.
Two questions that they need to be asking are what the potential is to ground and is there a current going to the building ground.
No wonder the water wont run.These pipes are all clogged up with wires.
Copper gas line....that first
According to the Nec the metal plumbing lines must be bonded….according to the EGC the gas line must be bonded (connected to ground in one place) Since no one showed these points I am going to assume that the gas installer and the Electrician didn’t do their jobs on installation or renovations….or some one stole the short pieces of copper….flowing gases and flowing fluids produce static charges…faulty equipment causes high current on pipes …very low current (which we have here) is caused by motion of gases and liquid…Just like rubbing your feet on a rug causes static charges…
I’ve seen crazy stuff, and where are you guys located that you use copper for your gas lines?
I’m sorry, but I think that’s a bit of a fail, I know it’s used in some places, but 😑
You're not the only one ! I was caught off guard myself. Those actually are solder joints on a copper gas line !!! in my. region (N.C./US) we use flare only. ..if not specifically dedicated gas piping.
American issues that no one else has good job
Besides that, the furnace flue pipe went up a chase in the ceiling with no thimble fire stop around it. That house has issues.
stray voltage will get up to 2 volts from power lines Acceptable stray voltage levels
Studies by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and several universities have shown that individual cows react differently to various levels of stray voltage. At certain elevated levels, cows may experience stress and behavioral changes, which can lead to health problems and decreased milk production. This research supports prior findings that say that stray voltage of 2.0 volt AC or less should not cause health or production concerns for livestock.
imagine water and gas rubbing hole into gas line so it blows up eventually. unsure if this is an issue. water pipes can shake a little from water hammers...
Electrical service neutral is opened
Fantastic video Robert: it has about 1000X more views that your other videos.
I would be more worried about a copper gas line.
This video and video description both have a pretty bad case of word salad.
At 1:48 he should have been shocked while holding the water line and inserting the cardboard between the gas line, looking like he touched both at the same time. Usually 50 volts AC typical ground fault voltage…been there, it don’t hurt too bad as long as you’re feet aren’t grounded, then it could be different story
At 0:18 That 0.02 amps or 20 milliamps.
Assuming the meter has the capability to actually read correctly at that low of a value in range of the meter or that the meter is actually calibrated to zero…I have had several electronic meters that where extremely inaccurate at “zero”…
Also, at 2:05, after the cardboard "insulation" is inserted, it increases to 0.19 amps.
@@stevepettersen3283 Correct, it did. Regardless, there are problems there.
@@richardl6751 Duh.
Why not simply install a ground rod instead of using pipes and then find the offending appliance with the electrical fault?
I would lock that alarm panel.
And check it's transformer installation.
Question........So what issues does this cause? Please explain.
Water is now a shock hazard
@@ergosum5260or kaboom on gas pipe!
One would think that professional installers would know better
Wait....so how come you dont get zapped when you touch the pipe?
Shoes have rubber soles. He was insulated.