Unusual but Broken D&D Build
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- Опубліковано 9 вер 2024
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DnD Shorts, Dungeons and Dragons, XP to level 3 with Davvychappy, potentially a bit a Critical Role with dungeoneering, tabletop community next to tabletop RPG, dungeons and dragons, Fjord, Beau, Jester, Yasha, Caleb, Nott, 5th edition dragons, 3.5e, dungeon dudes, DM GM, dungeon master, game master tips sprinkle a bit of Caduceus, Mollymauk in the Mighty Nein. Matt Mercer.
You don't have to step in the area to deal the damage, you can grind them on the edge of the spell!
Also the video relies on an explanation that may or may not work according to Crawford or Mike Mearls. Crawford says that a creature with multiattack can grapple multiple times, Mike Mearls says he'd rule no, but be open to it on a case by case basis.
Anyway even without, that's still 50 points of damage on average each turn, at level 6!
Couldn't squeeze all that in the video, so here is a comment!
It also depends on if both creatures can be grab and held on the same side
Uhm....if i recall the spell correctly there isn't a single line excluding damage towards yourself might be wrong tho 👀
Some strict GM could say that the Multiattack action and the Attack action a player do are different and you need an Attack action for do a grapple
Also they can escape the grapple no matter how good you are at it
Not to mention your concentration breaking
what if your bard casts haste?
I had a Rouge/Druid build which was themed around stealing stuff.
Guess I'm changing expertise from Sleight of Hand to Athletics and choose Circle of the Moon.
Keep to whatever theme you'd find more fun. Too many people ignore just fun stuff because it's less powerful. But creating a unique theme or flavor can make the pc so much more fun to play besides just being a beast dmg wise.
I've a sorcerer who is a homebrew elemental subclass who's elements of choice are cold and wind. Reflavoring spells to suit your theme is amazing if dm will let you. My misty step is her disappearing into a wind gust and reappearing elsewhere and her dimension door is her and whoever she grabs disappearing vertically into what looks like a layer of ice which appears below them (like falling into an ice lake, just without becoming wet).
Rp wise she acts much more like a bubbly, happy rogue. Sneaky af, but otherwise genuinely cheerful and upbeat. People suspect her more than the ACTUAL rogue in the party, lmao.
Flavor trumps power gaming imo by far. I've never had as much fun with another character. She isn't what most think of when one thinks of a sorcerer at all.
@@h.s.6269 Agreed, I think I got lucky with this build and the character I wanted to make.
I can do both, so I don't lose what I wanted to play and I get to use a powerful build, but if I had to make a choice, I would give up on the powerful build.
DnD is about having fun, so giving up on a fun character for a powerful one is a bit against the idea of the game (to have fun). Speaking from experience, I had way more fun in a one-shot I played in when I died twice and was brought back to life twice than in the rest of the sessions and one-shots I played in, when I didn't get nearly as much opportunities to roleplay as the character.
What I'm trying to say is that you're right, and having fun in WAY more important than having a strong character, and I simply got lucky with being able to have both in the same character.
Did a similar build Arcane trickster & grassland druid. Invisibility & haste. Also, my damage was mostly from sneak. I wasn't gonna get unlimited wild shapes anyway, so a couple goes a day at a couple hours a piece was plenty.
Sneak in as a spider crawling on the back of my invisible Mage hand that's holding my thieves tools. Get to the treasure. Turn back into myself load up with multiple packs even to the point of encumbered, then wildshape back into a spider. What weight? Also, we had a stint in the underdark one session & we saw some cranium rats. It really took off from there as they cannot be scryd on & are immune to divination spells, so by the transitive property, so is that loot now.
"Themed around stealing stuff"
What does your class have to do with that again?
@@dangerface300 1 level in Rouge for Expertise in Stealth, and 2 levels in Druid for Wild Shape (that way I just hold the item I want to steal and Wild Shape, and the item becomes part of the new form).
Stealth is to get to the item undetected, and the Wild Shape is explained above
I'd do Warlock, Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar Invocations on Eldritch Blast, that way you don't have to go anywhere near the Spike Growth
plus genie warlock (dao) and the crusher feat and you can do it one more time
Yep that's the alternative, but you can only move them 20 feet at level 6 this way.
It depends how the DM rules if they allow Repelling + Grasp to trigger together and make 20 feet of movement. According to Xanathar's rule they get to choose for stacking effects like these.
If they allow it that's 40 feet per turn, which is incredible I agree!
Can they be pushed and pulled with every blast? Like would that count as movement for Spike Growth damage?
@@Ruiso7 The push and pull is DM dependant but it does count with Spike Growth
@@MonkeyDMTrue but the eldritch blast damage is added in also. So it would be 2d10 plus 10d4 plus 10 if you take agonizing for an average of 40 damage per turn with only a 2nd level spell slot that you can get back with a short rest thanks to pact magic
Player: "i found this crazy broken combo that can inflict 100 points of damage per turn"
Me: "Ooh, that's very cool, i like this a lot"
Player: "wait, aren't you mad or scared that i'm going to break the game with this exploit?"
Me: "huh? Dafuq are you talking about? Fella, i am the DM, anything you can do, *I CAN DO BETTER* , if that's how you want to play, you better prepare uranus"
The first time I saw this it was called Merrilwyn's Meat Grinder. Thank you Oxventure, what a long strange trip it's been.
Oh i love the meat grinder and the horrified reactions at it being too effective
Bro thinks he's A-train killing blue hawk
Oh yea ive seen this before. Merilwens meat grinder was the funniest thing to watch especially since everything getting ground took an oath of silence and couldn't scream
Also remember kids: If your cheese grater ever gets damaged while doing this, just ask your cleric to cast grater restoration and you should be all set.
*slowly stands and claps*
Im just imagining a bear shoving some poor bandits face into a floor of spikes and sweeping back and forth...
never play DND but it feels like a balans nightmare 💀
The thing you have to remember is that dnd is not a video game and that you are doing this with friends. If it is funny to you and your friends go for it. It's possible to counter if a player relies on it too much but that will just ruin the fun for that player as that is their entire build. It's not going to be a problem and does not need balancing
Also nothing is stopping your dm from putting giant crabs that grapple the players and pull them around inside spikegrowth
Not really. The admin sitting right infront of you. and they can make things on the fly to counter whatever BS you think of. At least a good DM would be able to
Brown bear gets multiattack, which is one claw and one bite. I don't think there is a rule saying you can replace attacks in multiattack with grapples.
But It Also never says you can't, and you replace an attack with grappling, as Said in the rules.
@@omegafish69 There sure are lots of things the rules never say you can't do, since they're almost exclusively written to tell you what you can do. "The rules don't say I can't" is the worst rules argument one could make.
Everything related to this question tells you that multiattack isn't the same as extra attack -- it is its own action, and multiattack tells you exactly what attacks you can use for it.
@@BobGrimminger idk, i personally still count the attacks in multiattack as singular attacks, like extra attack for fighters and other classes for example, and Yeah the "It never says you can't" wasnt really a good argument, but i still think most DMs would allow It, even If It isn't written in the rules its kinda left up for interpetation
Correct. Multiattack is a monster-specific special action. It is not the Attack action, and therefore cannot be replaced with grapples (which are Attack actions or components thereof).
It can, however, be held as a readied action, unlike an Attack with Extra Attack!
What an overcomplicated way of doing average 15 damage
2d4 damage per 5 feet moved
40 movement + 40 dash + 20 reaction /half speed while grappling = 50 feet moved per round
2d4 has an average damage of 5
(5 damage / 5 feet) * 50 feet
so that's an average 50 damage per round for each grappled creature
1. Spike Growth is indiscriminate. Even as a Brown Bear, you'd also take damage. Because Spike Growth is also concentration, it means you roll a concentration check every 5 feet. Yes, you could stay on the edge, but there's nothing that states the grappled creature can't grapple back and drag YOU into the growth (as far as I've seen, anyways).
2. "When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them."
Standard Rules as Written with multi attack, grapple doesn't double down. If you have multi attack, a grapple replaces one of the attacks, as it's a special attack.
3. The Scouts Skirmisher ability only triggers when the enemy ends their turn in 5 feet of you. If you grapple them, they still get their next turn to try and break free before the reaction triggers, it doesn't trigger simply because they're within 5 ft of you, their turn has to end there. Granted, the opposing check would likely not be in their favor, as the Athletics expertise match with a brown bear strength gives a solid +10 to Athletics.
4. Standard Brown Bear Speed is 40 Ft. If Skirmisher triggers, that's another +20ft, for 60 ft. Total. HOWEVER: Spike Growth is Difficult Terrain. This means the maximum would be 30ft. Pushed. Except pushing a grappled creature cuts your movement speed in half unless it's 2+ sizes smaller than you. Meaning that most enemies will only get pushed 15ft., giving a maximum of 6d4 damage on your turn, averaging out to about 15 or so Damage on your turn.
A Brown Bear gets an attack with a Bite and Claw standard on its turn.
The Bite would average 9 Piercing
The Claw would average 12 Slashing
21 Average vs. 15 Average.
On top of that, there's plent of ways to immediately free one's self from a grapple.
At just 7th Level, a Full Caster could get access to the 4th level spells Freedom of Movement and Dimension Door.
Even without that, 3rd level can grant access to the 2nd Level Misty Step.
Freedom of Movement would still cause damage from walking through the area, but Dimension Door and Misty Step are both Teleporters, so they could just pop up somewhere the Spike Growth isn't.
But when you grapple you stand in the space adjacent to the grappled target, not *in* the space of the grappled target. So you can drag your enemy along the edge of the spike growth (works whether the DM is using squares or circles, but works better with squares), while being outside the area of the spell yourself.
@@KamasiFitzgerald Yes, I addressed that in the first part. Again, as far as I've seen, there's nothing stopping the grappled creature from grappling back and pulling you into the spike growth. Yes, they'll still take damage, but so will you. And you'll have to spend movement to pull yourself back out on your turn, which once in Spike Growth, your movement is quartered instead of halved. (Halved for grappling, double halves for difficult terrain)
@@Volandar the thing stopping the grappled creature from dragging you back is the fact that a grappled creature has their speed reduced to 0. That's literally the main function of grappling. They can't drag shit.
@@KamasiFitzgerald The Grapple back, and no one moves.
@@Volandar Tbf, kinda hard to grapple back a Brown Bear
The teemo low key gave me traumatic flash back from those times
I will be RP'ing this like Broly dragging Kakarot through the dirt.
Was thinking the same thing
RuneScape music reminds me of childhood.
As a DM: you also take the damage because you also run in the spikes
No you can run on the edge
@@themostepic0162 That sounds like pushing two creatures in parallel to your movement, not dragging. Dragging would imply the grappled creatures trail behind you, only traveling through spaces you have traveled through.
@@Zixor_ well technically grappling means you have attached the creatures so they cannot move more than five 5 from you. So if I'm holding you in front of me and don't let go and win my athletics check, then start walking sideways while still holding you in front of me, why would your position change?
@@themostepic0162 Regardless of if you push or pull, if you go through the Spike Growth area, you take damage. Now, with ONE creature grappled, you can position yourself on the outside, while the target is on the inside as you move. But with two creatures, I'd rule that you can't do it.
Still, bears are tough so you could just face-tank the damage at first. Not to mention, any ally casting Resistance or a similar defensive buff on you.
It's why ranged methods (such as a Grasp of Hadar) might work better.
@@lyravain6304 why could you not do it with two people? If you are strong enough to hold a person out with one arm in front of you, what is the difference if you hold a second person out in front of you with the other arm? A bear would def have the strength to do it. Can you not hold two things in front of you?
SpongeBob: “WOULD YOU LIKE SOME CHEESE ON THAT SIR?”
We did our own cheese grater, by having a swarm keeper ranger, warlock, and battle master launching people across it
Merilwen's Meat Grinder. OxVentures stumbled into this. Kinda. They had a bit of time to set up an ambush for some enemies. Their rogue cast grease, Merilwen cast spike growth. Because the enemies came charging at them, they ran into the grease, losing their balance, and sliding into the spike growth. Same effect.
That Voice crack when he said "In Strength"💀
A bear using it's roughish underworld expertise and experience to grapple more effectively is the most dnd thing ever
I could have sworn the cheese grater build involved some sort of genie warlock to make your Eldritch blast so bludgeoning and repelling blast combined with crusher. 3 rays at level 11, each one pushes back 10 feet.
Also pick up the invocation that allows you to pull enemies closer.
Have your buddy slap a hunger of Hadar or darkness spell down and suddenly they're half speed and can't escape.
Pick up a few levels in sorcerer for quickened spell, cast 6 Eldritch blasts on a turn, alternating between pushing and pulling.
DM: ...the dragon flies up
Mama murphey build, jacked strength hidden behind the guise of an old frail person
This is just the move that the purple dragon from metroid does in Smash
Respectfully, my understanding is that muktiattack and extra attack are not
the same features and that multi attack takes and action to make the two attacks specified. Therefore you can grapple once or you can multiattack, but RAW, you can’t turn multi attack into multiple grapples becaue multi attack is not the attack action.
This build is unusually effective against raccoons.
I did this once, but as primeval ranger. I turned into the giant tree and disguised myself and the spike growth. Then I used thorn whip to pull my victims in.
I had a DM who let me use spike growth in a fun homebrew way. I was bleeding out and we didn't have any healers, but I asked the DM if I could cast spike growth on my new hole to basically staple it back together. I added that I should have to make an arcana, medicine,and basic constitution saving throw to balance it out it doesn't get too broken. He loved the idea and let me do it both time I got stabbed in the campaign. The triple save made the first one feel so much better because it felt like I had to actually work for it and was weaving the spikes and myself back together. The second time was so intense because I succeeded two of the saves but failed the medicine. It made the "hole" experience so much better overall.
IDK why I felt the need to share that, I guess I just thought it was a little personal anecdote that related to the topic.
Ah yes.
Turn that random goblin into a meat crayon.
Of course it’s a cheese grater
I did this to a mummy once. Our druid cast spike growth, and I (the grappler monk) saw the golden opportunity.
Grab, step of the wind, and 50 damage later he went from mummy to dust
We used a totem barb / scout rogue. You couldn't break the concentration of the ranger who cast spike growth. Enemies couldn't see him and didn't know where he was. Bard cast enlarge. Everyone just took potshots at the poor grappled dragon, and went behind total cover.
The barb also made an amazing save on the dragon's breath weapon coupled with Evasion was just a laugh.
Genie Warlock with Dao Patron can do this too, without multiclassing, at level 3. Just take the pact invocations that let you push/pull people with Eldritch Blast. As you get more beams, you can move them through the spikes even more each turn
The issue is you will be taking the damage too, spike growth does not discriminate.
There are two different ways to do this at range, one is repelling blast and grasp of Hadar warlock, while another great option is stars druid + swarm keeper ranger, because you can use Thorn whip to pull enemies closer, and because it's an attack roll you can immediately use the swarm to push them back the whole distance plus and extra 5 feet, or simply deal extra damage if you know they'll probably make the save. And using stars druid, you can use archer form to make a bonus action spell attack to get a second chance at being able to use your swarm.
Wings?
Oil slick trap, spike growth at the end. Melwyns meatgrinder
Practically my exact thought
Merylwen's Meatgrinder from The Oxventure, for those interested,
Honestly i always occasionally think about that scene and how much everyone is horrified by the whole thing
Is that a slip and grind?
LITERALLY CAME TO THE COMMENTS FOR EXACTLY THIS
Me when I heard cheese grater:🦝
RUNESCAPE MUSIC!
Ah reminds me of merilwins meat grinder from oxventure, those poor townsguards
The very best part of that bit was the dragonborn first enjoying the quiet fresh air with a deep cleansing breath before ringing the bell and setting off the 'meat grinder'.
Ah, Egbert, never changes and it’s perfect, they are all so good
Man, you really cheesing these fights now 😂
jumpscare teemo appearance
WELCOME BACK KING FROM TEKKEN
My friend became the blender bard. (has to be at least lvl 5 I believe) Go bard of creation and create a stone dome as large as you can. Next use animated object to give it life. Since it takes its turn immediately after you, cast cloud of daggers. Then, have the bowl fly over the enemy and trap it. The enemy is now in the blender.
A grizzly bear doesnt use the attack action to make two attacks, it uses the multiattack action which specifies precisely which of the bear's attacks can be used. Grapples can only be swapped in freely when using the attack action.
Secondly,, grappling requires a free hand, which bears do not have. As a DM I would allow it (because a "bear hug" is iconic) but I wouldnt allow you grapple two guys at once nor would I allow you your normal movement soeed (bears need all 4 feet to move at anything but a staggeeing gait.)
I have a current build of a Chromatic Dragonborn with fire breath and he’s also a deacon’s bloodline sorcerer so he gets the dragons breath spell of acid typing as well as heat metal. Because he is chromatic for one minute I can become immune to all fire damage, meaning say I have armor, I make myself immune to fire, cast heat metal on myself, and hug the nearest enemy for one minute
I might rule that carrying two creatures reduced movement to 1/4, but thematically it's great.
you could also do this with thorn whip and thunderwave. no need for multiclassing
Every DM when they hear the words "moon druid" No f off, kill it!, No, get it outta here
If you choose tabaxi as your race, you can get a Nova turn from doubling your movement, but then have movement of 0 for your next turn
When you want your turns to take half an hour and a angry DM
Everyone knows this build does extra damage on racoons
How dare.
I would be scared if he made a baldur's gate 3 build with the Express purpose of making the game a cake walk
How dare you make me look at Teemo.
Merilwen's Meat Grinder.
This takes being eaten by a bear to new heights.
Tabaxi Rune Knight 7/Rogue 3 with boots of speed then one ally to cast spike growth and the other to cast haste can get literally over 1000 damage in a round if every resource is used.
Lmao this was my first BG3 build 😂 works wonfers
Reminds me of my hugh neutron build, except that was evards black tentacles, shoving, a familiar, artificer refreshing bag of holding, and a well placed dagger.
You're going to the shadow realm jimbo
A 10th lvl moon druid can do this by turning into an air elemental and dragging enemies under itself while flying over the spike growth
At this point I'd say DnD's just figuring out how to piss off your DM
i recall reading somewhere that no forced movement triggers any kind of movement based damage in 5e.
since this has come up multiple times during my sessions, with multiple differing spells.
I- i think i had this done to me by my DM with a monster??
Screw you, DM, i didn’t even know this was a thing
See this gets even better once you are able to be an Air elemental at 10th level. The cheese grater becomes so much more effective. Then a Warlock with repelling or grasping blast? There is a reason my party was known by the bloody battlefields and horror stories of what would happen if you joined the BBEG in our campiagn.
Merylwins meet grinder
If you have to setup a spell with a delimited zone to use it in this way the next one most probably the enemy will move pretty far away trying to reach you. And even if he doesn't move, at level 6 you're mos likely facing enemies with multiattack, and all they have to do is succeed in an athletics sheck to shove you on their turn (Which is likely because monsters usually have higher athletics and with a bad roll even with a +10 you only have to lose once), then the enemy moves away from the zone, gg strat.
I have a barbarian wizard Goliath who is on his way to being able to point blank fire ball
I thought he was about to go on about something else
Minor nitpick: Only Extra Attack allows you to make multiple grapples, the "Multiattack" action that monsters possess individually specifies exactly what attacks/features are used within it.
This is remedied by doing it as a Ranger instead of a Rogue, just go 5 Ranger of your choice, and pick up Canny for expertise. There's even room to multiclass a 1 LVL dip into Peace Cleric (ironically) to get Emboldening Bond. Now you're more likely to pass your grapple checks because of the 1d4 that you can throw onto a potentially botched Athletics check.
If you don't want to multiclass, you can just take Dao genie warlock and push/pull with repelling blast+grasp of Hadar invocations
so you can super Broly drag their face on the ground
I get that "Cheese Grater" build sounds funnier, but wouldn't sandpaper be a better analogy?
Maybe, but as you say, 'cheese grater' is a helluvalot funnier.
It comes online as early as third level if you make the 1000 iq play and talk to your fellow players about it. No multiclass required, just a scout and a druid and they're best buds forever. Now you have two amazing grapplers separately making use of the cheese grater for maximum overkill.
As an added bonus, next level the rogue can pick up mounted combatant and the druid can pick up sentinel. Iykyk
When I DM I dont mind players using rules in their favor. What I ask them to do though is not munchkin, let alone munchkin TOGETHER.
If they do that, then the NPCs will have equally broken tricks used again the party. I dont escalate first, but I do escalate LAST.
Cheese Grater build gets better if you wild shape into a raccoon hope this helps
Im just here for the Runescape background music
I love how the internet has ruined normal objects for me
So like when Ridley grabs Samus Aran and drags her across the wall in Brawl?
Does this inflict the damage on you, too?
yes, it does, perhaps you can do it when you have a flying wild shape or simply use thorn whip + spell sniper to force movement without multiclassing
Not if your DM is cool hahaha. Nah but there’s nothing about this build (with either the bear, spell, scout, or wild shape) that would rules as written make you exempt from the damage. So I guess the cheese grater has two sides?
I understood it as you exchange your whildshape's HP to your enemies' own HP. Which may be well worth it, but I wouldn't call it broken, not much more than druids in the first place
@@4d6cringe20you remain outside the spikes while your enemy is within.
only if you step in the area, you can grind them on the circumference of it and stay safe!
Bro got that A-Train build😂
At my table we called the spin cycle.
Circle of Spores Druid.
Wildshape into giant badger. Dig trench, 10ft deep minimum.
Cast spike growth in the pit.
Wildshape into giant spider. Lay web over the sides and top.
Cover top with sticks and leaves.
Lure enemy into trench.
Use Hold Action to prep Flame Sphere for when they fall in.
Resurrect Corpse. Use Corpse to lure more enemies to trench, or to hold them in.
For bonus damage, get the rogue to toss some oil bottles into the trench before you cover it.
Just dont wildshape into a raccoon..
Obvious balance issue with wording of spike growth
I think it should have been, if you move more than 5' through spike growth, you take 2D4 damage, NOT 2d4 every 5'. but then I didnt write the rule.
Alternatively, you play a Genie - Dao warlock, pick up the Crusher feat, and the Grasp of Hadar / Repelling Blast. Spike Growth + Eldritch Blastin'. My DM was also kind enough to give my warlock a shield ( after he did the proper training to gain shield armor prof ) that he can use like Captain American as a BA to deal bludgeoning damage. I love it. :D
I once played in a oneshot where we cheese grated an ancient white dragon! We achieved that because the two other players made their pcs together in order to combo. That allowed them to push the dragon around like a doll! One of them had cast telekinesis, so the dragon could not move and the player could pull the dragon to us 30ft every turn, while the other player pushed the dragon 30ft away every turn, due to his repelling blast! All my pc then needed to do was cast spike growth, and the dragon could do nothing but watch as we stayed out of its breath weapon reach, and it failed all its saves!!
He he he.
Watch out my next 1 shot players...
Crusher feat will do
Basically what you are saying is the broly treatment
I love that spell
Runescape :D I did't listen to your words at all. I just had a flashback of my childhood
I prefer the low level combo of spike growth and grease. Set grease right inside a doorway, spikes just beyond and wait for your enemies to come to you.
The one downside: unless your DM is cool with you skirting the edge of the AOE and avoiding damage yourself, you probably just kamikazed. This is why the more common versions are either relying on cheese like Eldritch Blast modifiers or Phantom Steed.
Oh we had done this to a werewolf lol
I do this with a friend who is a ranger and I play a warlock with repelling blast and grasp of hadar.
Giving them the A-Train treatment
So ridly side B in smash without wings
i broke my stapler
This doesn’t work for two reasons.
1) spike growth doesn’t damage on forced movement because it has the “moves into” wording and not the “enters” wording.
2) when you drag a creature by moving while grappling, they are pulled into the square you just left. So you would have to walk through your own spike growth to drag enemies through it.
That's crazy strong
Rules lawyering for rules lawyering's sake, you can only make one grapple attempt because Multiattack is a separate action from an Attack action, you cannot use Multiattack to make grapple attempts, you would need the Extra Attack feature or equivalent.
There is no rule specifying whether a grappled creature occupies the same space as you so it's kinda up to DM interpretation whether or not you can drag them along the spikes without going in yourself, but RAW it would be that you should be able because if grappling did make you occupy the same space it should say so.
On the flipside, you forgot to mention the size aspect of grapple, if you're 2 sizes larger than your grappled target, you can move at full speed. If you can get an ally with Enlarge/Reduce to help out, you can become a huge size bear so you can move a grappled medium size creature at full speed.