Copper Plumbing - Viega ProPress vs. Soldered
Вставка
- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
- Visit www.viega.us/ and www.ridgid.com/ to LEARN MORE!
Follow along with Viega and Rigid on their UA-cam Channels and Instagram accounts!
Viega -
UA-cam Channel - / viegallc
Instagram - / viegallc
Ridgid -
UA-cam Channel - / @ridgid_tools
Instagram - / ridgidtools
Follow Matt on Instagram! / risingerbuild
or Twitter / mattrisinger
For more great video content check out Matts new site! buildshownetwo...
Sign-Up for the Newsletter buildshownetwo...
Build Show Network on Instagram / thebuildshow
Follow Matt on Instagram! / risingerbuild
or Twitter / mattrisinger
For more great video content check out Matts new site! buildshownetwo...
Sign-Up for the Newsletter buildshownetwo...
Build Show Network on Instagram / thebuildshow
I started using Viega back when it first came out. I was a building maintenance manager for a very large corporation. When I came aboard, I found my staff had been making repairs in finished walls with compression fittings which is a no no. When I found out about Viega, I purchased the tool to do up to 2", which happened to be the largest copper we had in the building. It was very handy as we could execute repairs in minutes. One time had a leak in a line that we weren't able to isolate in the boiler room. We fitted a ball valve to the tool and quickly cut the line and slammed the valve on and pulled the trigger. Within seconds we were able to close the valve. It also eliminated our 1 hour fire watch.
That is a realworld fix which would be hard to do with other solutions - isolating full pressure / flow faults.... (getting a compression fitting on in that case is challenging if not impossible - and solder, yeh, nah not happening.
@@kadmow - push on fittings (AKA Shark Bites) can accomplish a similar result for that emergency shut-off, for those of us who DIY and don’t own that pricey tool. In fact, Matt has an older video demonstrating just that with a Shark Bite shut off valve being pushed onto a pressurized flowing pipe with the valve initially in the open position, closing the valve once it was pushed on sufficiently.
@@stevebabiak6997 - had to revise, I didn't realise Sharkbite was good for copper as well as PEX thanks.
Though is a push in fitting as mechanically strong / long lasting as a crimp (or solder) connection ?
@@kadmow - I can’t speak to the strength or durability, but the manufacturer of Shark Bite might have that data. I did note in my earlier comment that this is definitely a good idea in an emergency; you then buy time so you can determine how you want to approach a permanent repair (or leave the push on in place permanently).
Same here I had to change out a 4" water main valve. They make flange fittings so I was able to use a flanged ball valve. The main leaked pretty bad no way to shut it off without shutting down our whole site. One fault though they don't do well with vibration. I had to silver solder a few leaking fittings that I think were 1" . Hopefully the newer stuff is better.
Time to put the Viega in your freeze test that you did for previous pipes and connectors.
One advantage of sweated fittings is that you can take them apart if necessary
If you have to take them apart...you measured that take-off for 3/4 instead of 1/2...or measured your rough-in on a Monday morning after your team won the Super Bowl. :D (Sorry, I couldn't resist)
@@SpiceeMustard More related to the future when things are changing and you have to repipe a section and there isn't enough pipe to cut the fitting off.
@@Styk33 Don't take my reply too seriously. I understand why a sweat fitting would have to come off sometimes. I just wanted to make a light-hearted comment.
Like on a job site...gotta bust the guys balls next to you even if he's doing something right to get a laugh. :D
I kept scrolling to see if anyone caught on to this
While you can take a sweated fitting apart, it isn’t any fun… in my opinion
Didn't mention that the ProPress doesn't have to have a dry pipe like sweating does.
Or that you can't unsweat a fitting so every repair involves more work and more joints.
Unless it's really a lot of dripping, most of the time you can just heat-up the pipe on the side that's dripping, and boil off the water, but sure crimp-on fittings are easier for that type of repairs.
Me, on new jobs I prefer sweat joints with mostly long radius elbows on main runs, on repairs I prefer crimping.
I like both systems, but the time savings is a moot point, as 90% of the time you insert a pipe on both sides of a fitting on place to make sure that everything lines up and sweat them in one go, then the time savings of crimp-on are lost, cooling down is then also no issue, as you don't have to handle the hot pipe.
As for brushing the inside of fittings, I use a pipe brush in the drill, and brush all fittings I think I need in one go to.
Next to that, crimp-on fittings on average cost about 5x, and that really counts up.
But above all I prefer just to bend the pipe, because the best joint is if there is no joint, and joints that don't need to be their screams amateur time to me.
bread trick... and shark bite fittings...
Agree if got space bend and sweat fittings as assembled. Emery cloth and de burr were always the plumbers mate job so job never took that long. York or compression fittings were only used sparingly, as you say 5-10 times the cost.
And don't ever put copper pipe even wrapped in putty tape in a concrete slab just stupid.
@@michaelwesten " But above all I prefer just to bend the pipe, " I'm curious, where do you work and what kind of work. It seems to me that bending pipe in water or hydronic heating systems is pretty much non-existent in the US, while (based on my careful research on you-tube) that it's common in the UK. I think that Air conditioning/ cooling guys bend pipe, but not plumbers.
As a red seal journeyman plumber here in Canada, I can say propress has some amazing benefits in both residential and commercial. It allows connections on copper in situations where there is water in the copper without having to mitigate the water to solder. It allows copper to be connected without hot work and in an instant which is amazing. It even works on live piping, and a lot more reliable than a sharkbite. Plus it saves inhaling solder flux and fumes and other corrosion related problems that can occur when soldering. soldering still has a place as copper soldered fittings are a lot less expensive than press fittings and some spots are too tight to get the propress into so you still have to solder. Also certain situations like using a torch to remove an old copper fitting or tube end and then resoldering a new one in place still requires the torch. Its a great system, however soldering still has a time and place.
Yea, but a 2 in. 90 degree Viega elbow is $43 ea. vs a standard 2 in. 90 degree Copper Sweat elbow is $11 ea. If you need 10 - 2 in. elbows on a project you have a $320 dollar material difference. I can sweat a joint pretty quick. Yes, an unskilled idiot can install a Viega fitting, but I do not want an unskilled idiot doing anything, but sweeping and picking up after my skilled labor. If I had to because of the location, absolutely, but not for every filling on a project.
Does anyone use pex pipe
Our town is big on pex pipe
Great comment. You are one of the few to mention the potential health risks of inhaling propane, flux and solder fumes over the course of a career. Press to fit connections may lengthen and add quality to many lives.
@@larryhansman3384 yes, people use pex. Lol. It's the most common plumbing system on the market these days. Approximately 65% of new home builds use pex.
Matt when plumbing someone else's house: "PEX is the future and is perfect"
Matt when plumbing his own house: "I want all copper, and it can't be the cheap thin stuff. Who can I find to sponsor me so I can install their copper for free?"
You also forgot about local code. In my surrounding counties Pex is outlawed
@@charlesjedlicka2725 Fellow Chicagoan?
I'm a maintenance supervisor for a university, and Viega (Vee-a-ga) is our campus standard when repairing or installing copper piping. It's been around for a while, and we haven't had one issue with it. Viega stands by their product, and we use a lot of their fittings from 1/2" to 4".
We have two Ridgid press tools; the 18v that can press up to 4", and a smaller, more compact model than the one Matt used in his video. Since purchasing the 12v press a couple of years ago, it is used the majority of the time, and Ridgid and Milwaukee both offer a press using the 12v platform.
Sweating copper pipe fittings for years, I had reservations about the ProPress system when I first started using it. For us, it's the easiest and safest way to make connections with copper piping, and having a licensed master plumber with over 30yrs of experience on our team, he always says the ProPress system is the best thing since sliced bread.
The downside: It's expensive. The tools and the fittings. The average DIY'er can save money by learning to sweat copper pipe or using other pipe installation/repair products.
Doesn’t even say the name right lol it’s driving me crazy
Having done boiler installations and complex filter set ups, the press fittings mean your plumber better have his planning hat on before he starts- any error is a pain and expensive to remedy- a slightly off kilter fitting cannot be rotated with a little new heat, a new fitting and maybe and additional coupling if you have to cut bask your running line.
I work in the building trades here in the UK and have witnessed several multi million pound hospital buildings with SERIOUS problems in their water systems caused by this type of fitting. The seals inside these fittings harbour and feed deadly bacteria such as legionella and Pseudomonas and are virtually impossible to kill due to the micro dead ends inside each fitting. This type of fitting in my opinion will be outlawed in the near future and the sooner the better.
Do yourself a favour and use soldered joints, they are much superior and are a tried and trusted method that will perform through the life of your building.
My boss has 5 trucks on the road and 5 machines. For service plumbers it is a super time saver. Yes fittings are more expensive, but my hour as a certified licenced plumber is expensive as well. Quality of fitting is much better type K copper as you pointed out. Disadvantages sweat fitting can be removed and replaced but I haven't seen a pin hole in a propress fitting yet! I have been using this system for over 10 years. The guys I work with make fun of me saying I have forgotten how to sweat I use the machine so often!
FYI, soldering is not fusing. Fusion implies welding, which would require the copper to reach it's melting point.
Agree. This system mates the two surfaces together instead of fusing. Pretty cool tech but I'm still liking pex cold expansion more
@@Ninjump Also squeezing two things together really tightly is NOt fusing them. Soldering is not welding, its brazing.
It is melting point?
According to the dictionary:
Fusion - "the process or result of joining two or more things together to form a single entity."
Says nothing about molecular structure becoming one. Welding and melting are not part of the definition.
More importantly, what was the point of these semantics? We know what he means and intended to say. What exactly do you achieve by demanding different vocabulary?
Matt, Thanks for explaining the copper wall thicknesses. This is something that a lot of people over look and choose the cheapest item on.
Any main run's we highly recommend thicker pipe's especially when those are in the slab.
He could have also.mentioned the color classification too but DIYers shouldnt be doing it if they dont know that much.
M is perfect for a residence. Even in the slab. L an k are designed for commercial applications
@@scottbendall2696 We run type L in residential, and M for heat. Such as baseboards etc.
@@scottbendall2696 i saw a whole house leaking all over from M pipe because their well water was slightly acidic
It's called a scotch brite pad...It's made of synthetic fibers.
Brillo has soap built in and is made of steel wool.
Yea & flux does not seal a sweat fitting, solder does.
Yup just another dumba$$ b00btube salesman making videos he knows nothing about, he should work for the government, perfect disinformation campaign.
Kinda like the utube version of Bob Villa.. saw a video of him showing how to drill a hole with a spade bit, the drill was in reverse..
Also, I didn't know the pro-press magically 'fuses' the copper together too, wow that's great.
2:39 depending on your water. Everyone in my mom's neighborhood started springing leaks right in the middle of tubing after 35 years with M. I replaced it all with L (honestly never hear of K) 20 years ago. Time will tell. Call me skeptical, but I'd need to see many more years in the field to trust the Viega system. I have no doubt it'll last at least 20 years.
The pro press definately has many advantages over sweat, but the pro press is not perfect. Ive alredy seen a few leaks in brand new fittings that were not deburred or clean. A no brainer you would think, but since I now downsized to a townhouse, township rules won't let me change out the water heater even though I am a 31 year licensed commercial/industrial hvac tech. The highly rated plumbler we eventually hired sent two "kids" to do the work. He stopped by later to inspect and collect the check. I am not one to hover over people, but I kept an eye on them and wouldn't pay until they had redone thier sloppy work. A month later the fittings on top were leaking. I have a brand new Ridgid pro press at work, so I cut out the leaky fittings and replaced them after cleaning up the pipes. I also added pipe unions and ball valves above each water connection to the heater for easier replacement the next time.
Unions at the heater should be standard. Definitely hacks who did the original install
30 yrs old and the crimper is only down the bargin basement price of $3,000U.S.
Home Depot has one for $2,009.69 as of April 3.
Protecting the industry? odd that it would be more than $500.
Don't buy it then, every time mine comes out I make money it paid for itself in 2 jobs
Most of the copper in my 1955 home are sweated copper type L and K going 66 years strong!!
Hope you like all that lead
@@battleax4609 Yeah I guess that is one downside. Thankfully the water chemistry has kept the lead out of the water. I'm sure if I start disturbing the pipes and reworking things it could re expose it
@@battleax4609 My house is 90 years old with the original piping - we had it tested and there is no lead in the water. That said, I run the taps for a minute or two first thing in the AM....
@@battleax4609 Where does the lead come from? Is that the old copper piping? Or the old solder?
5:07 Would love to see someone cut it lengthwise and peel off the outer layer to see how "fused" it is to the underlying copper tube.
Flux keeps the oxygen(creating porosity in the solder) from getting into the joint as well as having an acid that helps to etch the copper to aid in the solder bond. If all you use is flux, you're pretty well screwed, so I think you misspoke or shouldn't be allowed to sweat copper. Some flux's have solder suspended in it, good luck using just that. . The Viega system works well and copper is good as long as it doesn't freeze. Copper has a lower burst threshold than PEX.
Always timely, always useful, thank you.
Now, we can all sit back and read the inevitable comments about how sweating is a billion times better and this is totally unproved and a very.bad.idea.
That press will never fuse the copper together. You are relying on a little O-ring to maintain the seal. Your test is also crap because he could have made all 3 of the solder joints on that T with an extra second.
Exactly what I was thinking. He's selling. And he makes a big deal out of the "dangerous flame" and how the plumber has to use that fireproof towel thing, I use an aluminum pie pan. What a crock.
The copper does seize together, the sealing element is a static seal made of EPDM. There’s a reason every large contractor is pressing. Labor savings, safety, reliability.
Jeremy Brua ,So your telling me you could cut two extra pieces of copper plus debur sand and flux all in one extra second sign me up for the tickets your selling because I'm paying big money to see that ,cut 2 pieces of copper debur and sand and flux in one second new world record.
@@plumbbuild6517 The fact remains, sweating that T is faster than pressing. I guess if you have an occasional drinker/worker pressing is safer and more idiot-proof.
Plumbing for dummies. Big companies use it so they don't have to hire qualified people.
Have been using the M12 ForceLogic from Milwaukee for years now. Have had only 2 fittings ever leak after pressing, They were the brass style. Only 2 negatives is the initial cost and the fact that if something leaks, ya have to redo a lot of it to replace it. ProPress all the way baby!
Been using it for two years perfect for service plumbing because you can’t always get the moisture out and you can’t sweat it
In Massachusetts type M is only allowed on lower pressure heating systems. Type L is required for potable water. There was a short period of time when type M was allowed on potable water and going back and remodeling those houses now it is not uncommon to find 30 year old plumbing systems developing pin holes.
Awesome! Just recently bought the Ridgid RP241 unit to do some plumbing upgrades in my house. Renovating my three bathrooms and kitchen. Can also use for my side jobs too so totally worth the money.
The hand pump 8s 140 bux!the power one for lazy people is 2200!
TIP for extending the life of ANY tumbling system (copper, per, even galvanised): get a whole-house water filter on the incoming tap. Removes most of the alkalies in the water reduces chemicals like chlorine and fluorine, etc. Cleaner water = longer-lasting fittings and longer lasting pipes.
Nothing but the highest quality sets on this channel. A plenum cap on top of a garbage can makes the perfect table.
sorry dont get this as yet, yes its a time savings but not conviced propress outlasts solder fitting and they are 3x to 4x the cost of sweat fittings so where is the must switch factor?
Lastly, and a huge point. You can easily mess up a sweated fitting, which will lead to premature repairs.
In the intro - Did you mean Solder - rather than flux (yes flux is involved but doesn't form the mechanical bond in a "sweated" joint, just checking.
I have copper waste and water in my 1965. It’s crazy seeing 2 inch copper vents in the attic. Houses around me are getting pinhole leaks as the copper is thinning.
The pinhole leaks many time are caused by the iron in the hot water tank as it breaks down. The iron will travel through the plumb and settle into the horizontal copper pipes. The Galvanic Corrosion will then breakdown the copper and cause small pinholes. Also, if you do not deburr the pipe before sweating the joint you will get a turbulent flow which will also erode the pipes...
@@michaelholliday100 Great point, too much solder at joint can also cause turbulence.
@@duanethieme4186 1/2" if solder is all a 3/4" pipe needs.
I honestly feel like having to switch out your press all the time is a pain compared to just hitting a ton of joints at once with solder. Also the elbows being a hard 90 makes it so much easier to measure pieces. When it sweeps (which there are sweat fittings that do that) it makes it a pain to measure properly
I can understand people preferring old school but not for that reason. Press is a time saver and the difference isn't even close. Switching heads on the tool takes seconds.
@@okgroomer1966 Yea, this comment was absurd. I can switch heads & press 5 fittings in the time it takes to sweat 1. Especially if it's larger that 1-1/4 pipe.
Fire retardant gel is game changer for sweating pipe in walls. Just spray it on like water and it provides great protection.
Have apreferred product, id llike to check that out.
WOW thanks I did not know the product existed.
@@danielbuckner2167 kimball midwest therma shield but they are difficult to buy. Cool Gel on amazon is good too.
@@danielbuckner2167I've only used Cool Gel. Works great. No cleanup needed if it can't be seen.
So a year ago you told us that PEX was the only way to go.
You did all your freeze tests and PEX kicked coppers ass every time.
Now because someone gave you some free stuff its the best??? What the heck?
Oh yea and once its together you have to cut it all out to replace it. And how easy is PEX to fix?
Come on Matt.
🤦♂️ not making judgements on pro press vs copper or pex, but can he NEVER come across and recommend something he believes is better in the future once he says something is the best? Things improve and evolve constantly.
And sorry to say, but instead of calling solder - solder, he calls it flux... I don't think he knows what he's talking about.
@@kablaam718pro press isn’t new since last year when he said pex was best 😂🤡
@@Whosurdaddy71 yes, but when something comes out vs when he reviews/tests something to make a comparison are 2 different things no? 🤡
Viega ProPress is great in new installations or areas where you can get the tool in. Retro fitting into existing systems using the crimping tool is possible but in tight spaces it's often easier to solder as a slight jaw misalignment will cause a leak and really only testing with air or water up to pressure will be able to let you know if it has crimped correctly. Solder you just use a mirror to check. Horses for courses.
You should check out the compact press. Its a new set of jaws they came out with like two years ago for tight spots.
Brother you're wrong. Flux cleans the pipe and solder bonds the pipe and fitting together😂😂
My only pro press failures in 14 years are on heating systems with glycol added(protection for water coils in attic). One other was outside wall hose bib burst, but boiler was down. Type L is the only way to go. Had to edit, the glycol level was too high on first mentioned failures.
So really, those weren’t ProPress “failures” at all.
@@MisterTwister88 correct, gylcol and hot water hose bib with mechanical failure.
When you can't solder. It'll be someone else's probelm when those fittings leak anyway🤣
I've heard plumbers say these will last 50 years. After that the plumber is retired and it's someone else's problem.
Matt, I'm a plumber. First, a "single end test" isn't realistic"- in the field or on the bench, all openings of the fitting are fit up and then the entire fitting is soldered- saves a bucket of time, setting up multiple heats on the same fitting after it is set up in place, but most of all, only uses about $350 dollars, new cost for a plumbers rig and bottle. Map gas is slower and more expensive. But the machinery to handle the whizz bang, just for the small set- well over a thousand dollars, and it will likely need three to a dozen new batteries every year. They ain't cheap here in Dallas. So, I'm calling you on this one; get with your fellow builders and poll a bunch of plumbers, particularly repair people. Be careful of youngsters who talk this talk but don't know how to use the very much less expensive solder on fittings. You are right- it is a craft skill, but it isn't rocket science.
no offense to your plumber in this video but I've been a plumber for 9 years and can move at least twice that fast when soldering when I'm not trying to rush. And the divot and paint dot are there for two separate reasons. You are correct on the divot but the paint refers to the o-ring. You can buy them meant for gas as well and the color of that dot will be yellow for HNBR o-ring and green for EDPM. The HNBR is rated for gas were as the EDPM isnt.
He was painful to watch. Hung over on a Sat. morning I was faster than that guy. But when you are selling a product you always make it look better than the other, so I give him the benefit of the doubt. Opening the flame guard was a nice touch lol
I thought he swore by pex
Lol, exactly. But hey everyone has a price....for their soul.
He does, in the videos for his personal house, he's using PEX all over, and even did videos about it
@Beni Bear This is his house pretty sure he started with pex. Not knocking him he’s got bills to pay just gave me a laugh. Next thing we know he’ll be putting up tar paper and house wrap over not zip lol
@@MrNickP when a customer wants copper the customer gets copper when the customer doesn't say then the customer gets PEX.
@@MrNickP his house was a figure of speech. Just like when he said he plumed it. It's a house he is building for a customer and he uses a plumber.
Clint made it look easy! I usually move the torch tip around to the other side of the pipe at least once to help heat all the way around to carry that solder through but... I guess I'm a little more paranoid oh, I hate the idea of a call back!
it’s painful to watch someone only cook one part of the joint when they solder. there’s a video or someone doing this then cutting all the fittings open to show that the solder does not fill the entire joint. it can hold but it’s still not 100%
My house has copper that is 90 years old and my previous house had 110 year old copper.... Not sure either PEX or those fittings would last that long, but if I had to choose, I'd probably go with PEX as it is quieter and you can do home runs with far fewer fittings.
Absolutely love propress viega & ridgid combo plumbing it's great.
Gosh you mentioning the hot work permit and fire watch brought me back to HVAC lol. I remember standing around with a fire extinguisher for such a long time when our guys sweat on fittings for gas when the jobsite demanded it (we did plenty of pro press fittings as well). Thats another thing he didnt get into, youre not only halving the time but also halving the labor per time invested with each fitting if one guy can press fittings without a fire watch standing by. I think that was only a major concern on commercial sites not residential but still a huge savings. Even if the fittings cost more, its got to be a huge labor savings. And theyre trying to outlaw MAPP gas.
Why are they trying to outlaw MAPP gas?
@jeffa847 there are so many stories. It may or may not have produced gaseous byproducts that could make welds/brazes brittle, it may or may not have had issues with the cylinders used to store it, and it's apparently a lot more toxic than acetylene in small unburnt quantities, all of these issues leading to apparent liability issues.
There was apparently only one plant in England making MAPP gas that either went out of business due to unprofitability, was sold or burned down, I can't find the truth, so it can't be made anymore unless someone buys the patents and builds a new plant, which apparently has government opposition for reasons I can't find.
All I know is MAPP gas is not produced anywhere in the world anymore for one or many reasons.
@@johnnymatias3027So what does Home Depot sell that they call MAPP gas? It's Benzomatic brand
Hey Matt, saw you on the EC2 podcast and then again on Texas Barndo April fools edition. My whole perspective of you has changed. Here’s to much success for you and all your endeavors!
I use both methods. The best thing about the pro press is that it takes less skill, I've seen a lot of copper failures due to improper saldering.
Bro what's up with that first joint 🤣 plumbers probably brought a bong to the job site that day.
The longer sweep of a Propress 90 does nothing to limit turbulence because the crimped joint on either end creates enormous amounts of turbulence.
I see Propress joints fail quite frequently because of erosion caused by turbulence, usually on a recirc line.
Great video.... even it's a commercial I really liked it. Can you do us a video on transition fittings too? Like PEX to Copper and "platic" versus brass versus copper fittings. I think what is most important for plumber and owners is to understand the difference also for a remodel job. We love brass fittings with PEX but often run into issues with remodels where it's either Copper or CPVC or even PVC pipes yes believe it or not often we see PVC for water supply lines under mobile homes been used too, which we replace with PEX. We love the PEX from shark bite because it's brass fittings and stainless steel clamps work flawless and fast. Much faster than CPVC especially in dirty and humid environments.
The press kit is very expensive (~$2K) which makes this a "pro only" system. $50 will buy you a good propane kit. Fittiings are somewhat expensive, but not crazy and worth the time/safety savings. That said, I think the biggest advantage is being able to modify/repair existing copper without worry about avery last drop of water turning into steam and wrecking your solder joint. I borrowed a tool and cut into my house main to add a filtration system. Worked great.
Moral of story: buddy up to a plumber with a press kit.
idk, I've been quoted $2-$3k recently for a pretty simple pipe relocation job in my basement. I'd do it myself, but having to drain everything, sweat the fittings and almost certainly having to redo one joint because it leaks is a pain. So pay someone. But I can buy the Milwaukee tool and DIY for about the same cost and be equipped to do more, or just sell the tool!
A hand pump is what I will buy.140 bux not 2200!I'm not that lazy
Only the small tool costs $2k. Which only goes up to 1" pipe. The full size tool is $4k plus tax. Which is why i rent it.
I am just getting ready to redo the plumbing under under my kitchen sink and i went online to look up the price of parts i would need and the 3/4 inch 90 degree elbow was $45. I stopped right there as this simple update would become a major financial outlay just for the fittings and i have no idea what the press would cost. Sweating fittings is not a problem for me but in the closed in space under the sink with a garbage disposal, dish washer connection and outside faucet connection i was thinking i could avoid sweating fittings in that confined space but the cost will force me to use sweat fittings.
The tooling is the spendy part. 90 degree elbows are like $6 list and can be had for $3-$4. Not sure who is selling for $45. Slap them.
@@yeahyeah5422 probably for a 10 pack
The thinner walls are for heating like fin tube and radiant floors. It has a better thru-wall transfer of heat than the thicker pipes.
You're typically not looking for pressure strength because of either the # of foil fins or it is embedded in concrete or some other mass body.
The thicker walls are for higher pressure lines, like the main lines in applications like high-rise and commercial utility services.
I don't think the ProPress fuses the copper. That would take a lot of heat to do that (think welding torch). I suspect what it does is create a press-fit joint that is water tight under pressure.
It take the circular fittings and crimp it to a hexagon. its all about math and physics
Milwaukee also makes an excellent press tool
If you looked closely, that was a milwaukee m12 battery in there. I'm guessing Milwaukee makes this one as well.
The EPDM is definitely the sealing mechanism in propress fittings. Everybody says they'll last and being around for 30 years, maybe they will. I've seen copper a lot older than 50 years old going strong. That said, most of what I do these days is pex.
ive seen copper jobs going on 70 years still no problems...type L well well supported and done correctly..
I wasn't sold until I watched a video here on youtube where a guy took the EPDM seals out of the fittings, crimped the fittings, and then did a pressure test. They held without leaking. I was sold at that moment.
@@mattguyear LCopper lasts 4 to 5 years supplying an ice machine
I am in a 90 year old the house with copper fittings still operating perfectly. Granted, I have replaced components over the years but main piping still going strong.
PEX A or B?
So why is this house using Copper? Seems like a $2-3,000 waste of metal along with the more difficulty for the plumber which ends up costing $10-15,000. Also add that, Copper corrodes / pits in many cities due to water, older systems used lead, and unless you are running 250C+ steam through the lines it's a waste.
They both have their place.
Best comment yet.
Really liked this camparison Matt. I've seen them using the pro press at work over the last few years.
How about needing to turn the elbow a little
I thought you did a video and said that you did the Uponor PEX in your house? I'm gonna have to rewatch that to see if I remember wrong.
I believe this is a house he is building.
@@mister-action1 yeah, this is definitely a different house, just looking at the traditional studs used. He just misspoke at the start. He said "my" at first, then says "this."
Ya I noticed the same thing! I hope it's a different house because he was all about PEX A in his house. I'm a plumber and just made the jump to PEX for repipe applications. If Matt noticed an issue with PEX A like I have I'd like to know what he doesn't like. I know I've found several problems with it
@@jeremygallimore3042 I'm curious about your problems with PEX since I'm thinking about using it to repipe my 1947 cape.
@@jeremygallimore3042 what problems with pex A or B or you having?
I would like to see what happens if you remove the "O" ring and pro press the fitting, then water test it under pressure.
A leak happens
It would leak. If fitting isn't centered right it'll crimp off to a side and smash the o ring and destroy it and then you have a leak. Not huge on it for copper but it's amazing for gas lines
Even with that incredible pressure copper will not "fuse" as in become one piece. Also the surface of copper is not just copper but a thin layer of copper oxide which again outside of heat or friction (welding methods) that layer would prevent fusion. That being said that oring is not going to see much oxygen and therefore is going to last a very very long time.
@@paintballthieupwns copper pipe and fittings are sanded and reamed before any brazing or fluxed if soldered
@@chrisjones6165 - for sure - but not for the crimp fit which is what I was addressing
Was surprise the industry didn't go with the other better option. Same basic concept, but instead still used heat and solder. Though the profit margin was much less... which is usually the main driving force for any decision. It could be used on standard sweat fittings, and could also work in a live situation if needed. It appears it's not a good idea if it doesn't' require a mass amount of additional cost for the end user. I remember seeing this tool in So-Cal, and wondered why it never hit the market. The greed factor always wins out.
I don't know about the USA, but those "cramped" systems have been used in my houses for ovet twenty years in Australia.
Edit. I notice you didn't mention the price of the press kit.its as big as the tool.
Yeah about 2grand for press and jaws. Break out another 1200 for gas fitting jaws
Same here in the US. Unit was introduced in 1999 but didn't start getting popular until about 2010. The fittings are not cheap ( copper water, copper gas (G) & megapress Steel for gas and water sprinkler systems. ) saves a lot on labor but the longevity of the O-ring ,who knows (???) , time will tell.
Matt, I would like to have seen those viega fittings cut cut in half down the axis of the pipe to see if they could be pulled off or, as you say were truly "fused".
I've watched many videos on viega fittings, They aren't "fused" at all. They are just squeezed tight. You just need to cut it lengthwise with a dremel or multi-tool to release the pressure and it comes right off.
@@scottkolaya2110 We know
Interesting that copper plumbing is seemingly a novel system in the Austin area - assume that is with production builders and tract homes?
I’ve lived in Dallas since 2010, owning a 6k sqft home that was built in 2001 - having just upgraded 6 full bathrooms, kitchen, home theater, outdoor kitchen and exterior/garage plumbing, all plumbing runs were original copper tubing - this is our 9th custom built home over the last 27yrs, and all prior homes, (New England and Midwest locations, as well as Atlanta GA and RTP-NC), had copper...
Glad you crimped all your connections rather than fluxing them, you would have had a hard time with all the leaks.
Soldering your connections with flux on the other hand works wonderfully
I use a rigid compact propress it is worth the money and speeds the job up No more waiting for plumbers, some building I work in wont let you in without one
Hi Matt,
I think you forgot to mention that the crimping tool you are using is about $2,000. I wonder how many fittings and roles of solider I could buy for that price and how many crimping jobs would I have to do to break even at that price?
Matt, if Viega Propress is so good, why did you use PEX in your personal house that you are building?
I’m a PEX guy. Less $, less joints. Joey this client wanted copper so this was a great choice for this house
Got a love it when the answer is straight forward, And presented without BS.
Different products for different people and different use cases.
@@buildshow Thanks for answering this question. It was my question as well. Scanning comments pays off sometimes!
He took his time one some of the soldering tests, I assume to make a point, but it just made him look like a bad solderer. 😂😂
After a couple minutes in I realized this is a commercial for Viega ProPress
@ 9:52, Flux finger to pants wipe move. Classic!
Aside from being more reliable than Sharkbite, the ProPress system has the advantage of not creating a break when copper pipe is being used to ground the electrical system.
I have that exact Ridgid Compact Press tool. I also have RLS Zoomlock jaws and 1/2" mega press jaw. It's a great tool to have in the arsenal.
I had to replace two water faucets for our new washing machine. I went to a local box store and bought two new faucets. After I returned home I decided to call a plumber. I had sweated copper before but my supplies hadn’t been used in years. The plumber used the system you demonstrated and it took less than an hour. He even used the faucets I bought for the project to save me money. When he gave me the bill I felt he was robbing me. I should mention he came out the same day I called arriving before 5:00pm. I will look into the cost of the system you used.
What was not covered is the huge cost difference between sweat and press fittings. Labor savings may cancel some of press cost disadvantages
Good Report, though flat fact, lead Is put in that pipe (price a lead free fawcet)
I would also recommend that you look at the UK system of Yorkshire capillary fittings with the solder already embedded in the fitting. Simple to use and I would suspect way stronger than any compression system. Yorkshire fittings have been around for decades and I have used them in home plumbing with no problems. And on top of that, no very expensive crimping tool. Just a torch, flux and glass cloth or wire brush.
Compression fittings are now almost universal in commercial buildings in the UK, totally due to no hot work allowed , the cost of the tool is less than the result of a fire. I have changed over to Tectite fittings, no hot work, can be used on wet pipes, quick, and no expensive tool required.
Our farm house is 1960 didn't think about copper wearing out!
A small spec of flux inside a pipe or a defect non-pure copper will cause pin holes. They are fun. They initially leak so slow you may not know for weeks or months until a wall or ceiling fails.
Flux inside the pipe? 😆
@@joshfazenbaker5691 Yeah, flux inside the pipe. I saw it in there from what looked like overzealous application from installer. Pipe pin holed at 11 years.
@@JasonW. The flux stayed in place in an operational pipe for 11 years? That doesn't seem likely. Was it a drop of solder?
@@IanSlatas not really, more of a stain from where it was applied. When pipe was replaced and cut open, several pits had formed along the edge of the stain. One pit started leaking. The solder line was visibly not where the pitting was.
Always preferred copper piping, installed it through the whole house. I guess we have minerals in our water that don’t like copper. After about 20 years we started getting pin holes in the pipes, started with the hot water lines. Ended up switching to Pex pipe, straight lengths preferred over rolls. Didn’t have time to redo the whole house, so replaced sections as needed, or when I had time to change a section. Started using Shark Bite fittings, pricey, but easy to join Copper to Pex, or to CVC. No special tools required. Huge time savings.
Another note, Shark Bite fittings can be taken apart, and are reusable!
you guys forgot about the price difference between the 2, also keep in mind that Certified Plumbers also must have Fire Protection training, I do like the way the pro-press are but in reality the swat fittings are much much cheaper of course when installed by an Experienced Plumber
some people use these fittings just because they're new but the real question is will the O Ring last 10-15-20 years?
I'm not a plumber by any means but I'm sitting in my home in Australia scratching my head over all this. Can it really be true that the USA has only discovered crimp fittings recently? My over 60 year old house has this style of joins in the copper pipework. The pipes started developing pin hole leaks (not associated with the joints) but the joints themselves were still completely watertight after 60+ years of mains pressure being applied.
I'm also scratching my head over the claims that the copper itself is providing the water/gas tight seal. It doesn't. It is providing the mechanical retention of the pipes but it is not cold welded and will pass water/gas. In fact I've seen new crimps weep a little until the seal seats on old slightly rough pipes. The seam between the metals is clearly visible in this video. I bet if someone were to get into that cut open section of pipe, shown in the video, with a screw driver the metal could be wedged apart without any of the tell tale signs of cold welding.
1:11 Ha ha, "a flux in there" ! The flux is not what seals the joint.
I did Plumbing work for over 20 years and I have not ever seen one plumber deburr copper pipe unless it was going to be flared.
You didn't do an apprenticeship or commercial work then. If you don't deburr copper it causes turbulence which will shorten the life of the system.
Somebody is a hack and doesn't even know it.
Well, that just shows that you're a hack, Walter. Not only are there good practical reasons to deburr copper, and just poor craftsmanship to not debur it, it's also required by code. Either you don't know the code, or you do know the code and choose to violate it. Neither says good things about you.
Don’t use M copper for plumbing water supply pipes. You have to use L. M is for heating systems.
Appreciate that. Didn’t know
Yes but so many plumbers out there still use that sorry M copper, I for one don't use M copper at all.And never will
M copper does poorly in hot water applications. The heat changes the metallurgical makeup over time, the copper turns pink/red and deteriorates.
I wonder how well they would work without the EPDM seal... This reminds me of the arguments between the different types of hydraulic fittings on equipment. JIC, ORFS, SAE ORING BOSS, O ring flange, NPT, Bite type to connect to rigid tube, and brazing to connect to rigid tube.
Wow! Viega comes from germany and i live 5 Miles next to the town where it is produced. Awesome products
Looks like great system, and it seems solid, but usually when a product or service is displayed without disclosing the price, it's because it's ugly. Why didn't you compare price, when you compared features?
That’s a really difficult topic because labor rates vary so much in the US. In general, these fittings are gonna cost more than a typical fitting, but the savings is going to be in the labor. I also think there’s a benefit to the customer knowing that each fitting is uniformly better than sweater on.
@@buildshow Have to say do enjoy watching this channel but as someone who grew up with plumbing, I have to point out that for small jobs such as replacing my bath with a shower tray next week I will go with copper and solder as no expensive heavy tools to buy or hire. Next year when we upgrade our bungalow I will go with pex throughout and get someone else to do it as I'm 60 soon and my knees are shot. Either way, you have to insulate the pipe properly which plumbers hate as it's extra time and fiddly to do right. I see Texas unprotected pipes can freeze just the same as in the U.K.
The corrosion problem in copper can be avoided with a chemical flush and inhibitor at first fill of the system and long term I always fitted a manga clean to catch all the iron from the rads etc that might otherwise "pinhole" the system.
The system you show looks good for larger maintenance companies that can pass on the extra costs and is backwards compatible with older systems but if I were growing up now doing plumbing with pex now that the materials and fittings are so much better than 30 odd years ago I would have that now. Who knows in another 30 years they might be 3D printing pipes in situ with robots no labour costs required.
@@buildshow I disagree with being a better fitting. 40 yr master plumber. Maybe just old school, but I never had call backs my way.
The "test" is dishonest, he could have made all 3 of the solder joints on that T-fitting, add 5 sec. HE IS SELLING. And he makes a big deal out of the "dangerous flame" and how the plumber has to use that fireproof towel thing, I use an aluminum pie pan. What a crock. It's fine if you want to be the salesman but don't bullshit me, boy.
Again I say cutting 2 more pieces of copper and deburring and sanding and fluxing in 5 seconds is bull crap not going to happen I've been plumbing for over 30 years and if I could cut and debur and sand and flux and then sweat 2 pieces of copper in 5 seconds I would have already retired from the thousands of dollars people would have been paying me just to watch that impossible task.
@@plumbbuild6517 Yeah no shit, genius. Again, the fact remains, sweat a T is faster than pressing.
@@talon0863 when ever you got 10,000 dollars and in middle Georgia I'll take that bet ,he'll I got 15 against your 10 anytime you fill lucky enough to put you money where your mouth is that you can start on a tee and cut and sweat quicker than I can cut and press anytime. Just name it.
@@plumbbuild6517 Cool it Francis
Very informative, love watching your videos
I used progress gas. In my area we have 2 lb gas systems and use copper gas lines. Pro press plumbing great for boilers as well.
Megapress when its black steel.
Nice new system for plumbing. I saw it about 5 years ago and it was in a commercial project. I was told it was not available for residential use. Glad it's now available for residential. Great video and it sure beats pex
We've been doing it in resie for almost 20 years here in Pittsburgh.
What about it beats pex? Matt has made freeze failure videos on pex vs copper and pex won.
@@TheDogDad the pipe freezing shouldn't be a problem if properly installed, matt didn't use the pex fittings for that test which break extremely easily if subjected to freezing temps. Plus its easy to thaw Copper out if it does freeze. Its rodent proof, its antimicrobial like matt touched on and if installed properly will outlast pex two to one.
The only reason pex beats copper in residential is its cheaper. No other reason. I do commercial plumbing here in Pittsburgh and 9 out of 10 times we install copper and occasionally uponor.
@@robertkordingjr8835 copper is rodent resistant... I’ve seen copper that had been gnawed through. Was absolutely shocked but it happens.
Sweep 90's for sweating are available literally everywhere. They're all I use even though they cost between twice and three times as much as the hard 90's. Still less than 1/2 as much as the compression variety fittings. Unfair to represent the sweat fitting as though the option isn't there. Also, even though there are more consumables, I could buy a lot of consumables for the $700+ that compression tool costs. Each system has it's advantages.
Important point, the copper is not fused by the compression tool. It's just very hard to slide a polygon over a circle. If you cut through the fitting lengthwise the pieces come right apart. Not fused.
$700 for the compression tool?
Try $2000!
@@dnomyarnostaw The big guy may be. The residential guy is available around me for less than $800 with 3 jaws.
How will this system hold up in acid water areas; like New England. I've had copper pipes that looked perfectly fine on the outside, but corroded through from the inside. The 'O' ring could also be a weak point. Any corrosion inside the pipe will ruin the seal; and a bad 'O' ring is also problematical. How many years will the system hold up? Time will tell!
Copper is used in the majority of commercial buildings in New England. Most allow press style fittings such as Propress and Gruvlok
Flux fuses pipes together? Wow that's a new one
I know right. Tinned flux to solder okay... But fuse is a far stretch.... Fusing plumbing parts would be like welding the parts together.
One of your best. Thanks for doing this one!
In early 2008, true MAPP gas production ended in North America
That's true. MAPP was a proprietor blend of gases. However, the MAPP replacement gases sold now still produce a hotter flame than propane.
6:45 "And I'm going to play Keller Commentary" Matt what's Keller Commentary? 😂
Matt, thanks for the great videos.... any possibility of pressing a few fittings with their o-rings removed? Turn the water on and see what happens... I’m curious, but I don’t feel like spending a couple thousand dollars on a press tool to find out... hopefully your plumber is still on site 👍
There is a video out there: ua-cam.com/video/7Z8WSFqq13E/v-deo.html
I am resistant to new technology, buy my hvac contractor did my entire boiler and connections with pro-press. I cross my fingers that they don't wear out too soon.
Two more advantages of soldering is, the joints can be reheated and taken apart minimizing fixing things, and soldered joints look a lot better.
11:12 also, gonna remember that yep, need that hot work permit and watching and waiting afterwards.....which does take time and money.
Do like using ProPress (and Milwaukee also makes a ProPress tool and accepts Ridgid heads, which is great), along with ProPEX tools for plumbing a house. Another nice thing about ProPress and ProPEX, if water is in the pipe, the tool and pressing the pipes still work, unlike, trying to do solder on a copper pipe with water in the pipe, just doesn’t work that well (and if have a water leak, can easily press a new fitting in with a “wet” pipe using a Press tool; which is nice).
The future of plumbing continues to evolve 👍🏻👍🏻, and anything that makes jobs easier, saving time and money, but with keeping the “strength and dependability” of no leaks for decades....is very nice, imo.
Cheers😊