Why continue doing it the wrong way. I think angle finders would be the best options here. They are small wedge sized blocks. You start moving the knife on top of them but you don't move them along the knife.
so i bought eight water stones and each one came with one of these guides and what i did was i took the ceramic part out of each of the guides and the ceramic rods are different sizes and diameters one is rectangular and they are incredibly useful. i had a benchmade 940 with bad lock stick and it was the perfect thing to fit in the track for the axis lock to smooth it out. i’ve used them for gun smithing and for sharpening a hawksbill shaped blade and serrations and for doing light touch ups on regular knives. i wouldn’t buy those guides but don’t just throw them away.
This is true. But one thing I actually found useful while learning freehand sharpening are the "Wedgek" typ guides (blue wedges with different angles). They are not attached to the blade, but serves as a reference and to make sure you start out at about the right angle. Also very useful for setting correct angle when you decide to reprofile a blade (change the blade angle to a different angle).
Well explained! I’ve always looked sceptically at these fixed angle guides - never understood why they were used or sold for the very reasons you demonstrated. Same with the “2 quarters” or “3 pennies” advise for lifting the knife from a stone. Different blades with different heights = different angles. Single blade with narrowing height - ugh! And especially a knife with a curved belly! Those need special attention to maintaining the angle the blade edge meets the stone as you work across the edge. These angle guides can only train you to maintain the same height of the knife’s spine off the stone when what your focus should be is learning to feel the consistent angle the knife edge meets the stone. Those fixed guides can never do that.
This is the same issue with guided systems such as KME or Wicked Edge. The width of the bevel always gets wider toward the tip on these guides because the knife gets shorter as you approach the tip. You are getting into the thicker part of the knife. Slowly raise the angel as you approach tip. This is hard to master and takes time and patience. Very good video and I'm glad someone finely addresses this.
@@alexanderkempf9828 Guided sharpeners do keep the same angle, but doesn't necessarily keep same bevel thickness. Depends on the blade cut and how you place it in the jig. The farther the tip is away the jaw line, the lesser the angle. But then you have to be careful of what the heal is doing.
@@JohnDoe-zb7dz Hmm, I'm not able to visualize how the bevel thickness would change if the bevel thickness is dependent on how the primary bevel was created. Are there any videos on UA-cam that explain this? Because I'm not really able to understand what you're saying.
@@alexanderkempf9828 Because the tip is thicker closer to the spine. Now, if your blade is straight as a Wharncliff or straight razor, then you wouldn't have that issue.
@@JohnDoe-zb7dz I see what you're saying: that the nature of bevels creates a thicker part near the spine in a thinner part near the edge. So how does that have anything to do with the secondary bevel / edge when it comes to sharpening angle? As long as the bevel edge is consistently thick all the way across the length of the blade, there shouldn't be an issue?
Excellent demonstration and you are obviously right as to how the width of the knife affects the angle geometry...I need to work on my muscle memory, I had it once but I do a lot of honing on straight razors but that is much different.. What is your opinion on them wedges you rubber band to the stone? Thanks for your time and much success in your business..
Yes. Agreed. Perhaps the product that should be sold is a series of guides for different blade widths? In other words there should be three guides in the pack that can be used for different blade widths from chinese cleaver to pairing knife.
It does give a relatively fixed angle for each knife, but not a consistent angle between knifes of different size as you noted. But when used with some common sense and an angle guide, it's an effective jig to help beginners. Personally, I use a stone so infrequently that I've never developed the ideal freehand muscle memory.
I do like this video as it points out problems with these guides but you still can use this guide doing a bit of work. Attach the guide and lay the knife on flat wet surface and then check if shapened bevel angle matches across whole blade. If not adjust position AND ANGLE of GUIDE until desired angle is obtained.also this will help starters with keeping hand movement constant. Hope this helps.
If the angle of the guide is shallower than the target bevel angle, it could protect the blade surface by acting as a backstop (as well as telling a newbie "you've gone too shallow!")
What you say is correct. Let's be clear though, the human hand cannot be more precise than a machine. These devices are simply meant as aids. I do not believe it is possible to maintain by human hand exactly the same angle across the entire blade. Even with muscle memory, a sharpie and a good eye, you will get a good approximation of your target angle within +/- 1-2 degrees which is good enough for a most chefs knives. These cheap devices are useful to help grip the spine on longer or wider blades and agree you should not run them across the face of the stone. For small knives and narrow blades these devices are in any case too large to be useful. Sharpal also makes an inexpensive interesting magnetic gadget with a spirit level that helps train you to get good muscle memory. If you want perfect control of an angle you need to get one of the many expensive mechanical devices that move the whetstone over the blade which are a good investment If you own a lot of knives or very expensive blades.
There is really no point to get a German knife or any knives other than a properly made J knife to get a good idea about sharpening angle, as those are quite different to a Japanese knife. I'd say if you can pick up a good priced Tojiro DP or even a Global would do the job.
The first reason is not a good reason, because you shouldn't have an identical angle in different knifes. Also, you could choose/make an appropriate jig for every knife. But the second reason is important. I use a knife sharpening guide because my arms are too shaky and I get better results with a knife sharpening guide, but I have position the guide in a way to minimize the angle variance.
@@KnivesandStones I agree, but my hands are quite a bit shakier than on average. I can do the work, which requires high precision: sharpening, cutting, threading a needle, loosening tiny knots, and so on. The only problem is that I can't stay relaxed when I do that job. I can do the freehand sharpening. My Yaxell Ran gets uniformly razor-sharp, usually use flat 3000 and 8000 Japanese wet stones, but it feels like I am not very good at freehand sharpening because I get a tiny bit sharper when I use a jig in a tricky way. I get not as a sharp knife, as it was out of the box, but very close. Any advice?
Tho you are right, there is also a lot of easy ways to overcome every thing you said is wrong with the guide. now remember, this are intended for noobies not using very high end knifes and people that want a sharper knife, not an absolute perfect edge. If you are into that, then you are correct, it's better to start learning freehand (or use a real good guide) than using this, but for most people who are not trying to learn how to sharpen, but instead just want to get a better cutting edge it is perfectly suitable.
Appreciate the feedback, however I have to disagree on this one. Buying a stone (or a set of stones) is certainly not cheap. Anyone who wishes to learn freehand sharpening should defintely start on a CORRECT note, with clear understanding of the theory behind freehand sharpening, rather then settle with something that is incorrect and flawed. Otherwise, a simple fixed angle sharpener or rod would just work fine and most likely be cheaper.
@@KnivesandStones again. You are right if you buy a branded stone and invest the time, money and efford. But this is usually an accesory for the 20usd sharpening stone sets. There is always a place for everything. If they were complete useless to anyone they would not be this popular. Remember than more than 70% people are not interested in learning or technic. They own cheap kitchen knifes and they want to get a little extra use.of them.
@@VaracolacidVesci I agree most people don’t wanna take the time to learn freehand knife sharpening and just want to easily maintain their kitchen knifes
@@VaracolacidVesci I suppose it all comes down to how you want to build your house. Some of use are perfectionists, building our houses with the best possible equipment and materials ensuring they will stand the tests of time. Others are not interested in the perfection. Caring little about the equipment or materials used so long as its done quickly and it keeps them dry.... -wait- ... Well, i suppose those folks probably don't build their houses so much as they just move from one mobile home to the next.
@@trupyrodice4462 to call yourself a perfectionest you surely make a lot of writing mistakes. And you are missing my point. It is not about me, I'm a truly perfectionist but not everything matters to me. For example: I don't care much about how great my tv is, simply because I don't watch as much tv. I try to buy a good one but not the best simply because I don't care enough about tvs to waste a ton of cash in something I don't even use. Even when I can get a better one, tvs are not my thing.
I recommend the angle guide for people who start sharpening, why? Because every time they start sharpening the angle always changes. At least with an angle guide it will be consistent. Also for knives in restaurants (restaurant's knives not personal). Why? Based on my experience for example: today John sharpened the knife at 15° and tomorrow Vincent sharpened the same knife at 20-25°. This way the knife takes longer to sharpen and the angle keeps changing all the time. Just give them an angle guide so everyone will sharpen the restaurant's knives at the same angle. For personal knives just do whatever you like. Keep the factory angle or adjust the angle that suits you
So true. But even if you give em the guide they'll throw it in the trash cause ey know better and they ain't wasting time with the plastic fiddly bit. And the stone only gets replaced when it snaps in half from having an U curve in the middle, "Just learn to compensate. Get gud." they say.
Yep, I bet if you use this instead of eyeballing the correct angle and you use it correctly, you can achieve much better results, comparable to a guided sharpening system.
The one thing I can say about a knife guide is it will scratch your knives so don't you go on a good knife (grit gets around guide) to me using a knife guide is a good way to start muscle memory because when you start sharpening knife's that's exactly what you need is muscle memory and this guide comes in handy temporarily until that's established. Imho
The sharpie method does not ensure that the correct angle is maintained. IF the angle is already correct along the entire length AND you manage to remove all sharpie marks perfectly evenly, you have maintained the angle. If you start to remove the sharpie marks unevenly, what then? You have already changed the angle. Now you need to remove the remaining sharpie marks without any sharpening of the areas that are already clean, which is virtually impossible.
You are overcomplicating the subject, knife sharpening guides work perfectly!!! Excellent for non-professionals.
Why continue doing it the wrong way. I think angle finders would be the best options here. They are small wedge sized blocks. You start moving the knife on top of them but you don't move them along the knife.
This flaw in the geometry is "obvious" to some, and "magic" to others - this is a great video to explain the "why" - thank you
Yeah he’s spot on. One of my knifes could shave hairs after using the device and the other two were barely cutting through paper
so i bought eight water stones and each one came with one of these guides and what i did was i took the ceramic part out of each of the guides and the ceramic rods are different sizes and diameters one is rectangular and they are incredibly useful. i had a benchmade 940 with bad lock stick and it was the perfect thing to fit in the track for the axis lock to smooth it out. i’ve used them for gun smithing and for sharpening a hawksbill shaped blade and serrations and for doing light touch ups on regular knives. i wouldn’t buy those guides but don’t just throw them away.
another fantastic video bro. I’ve been freehand for about 5 years. I’ve never once used one of these tools as I came up with this conclusion myself.
Great to hear!
This is true. But one thing I actually found useful while learning freehand sharpening are the "Wedgek" typ guides (blue wedges with different angles). They are not attached to the blade, but serves as a reference and to make sure you start out at about the right angle. Also very useful for setting correct angle when you decide to reprofile a blade (change the blade angle to a different angle).
Well explained! I’ve always looked sceptically at these fixed angle guides - never understood why they were used or sold for the very reasons you demonstrated. Same with the “2 quarters” or “3 pennies” advise for lifting the knife from a stone. Different blades with different heights = different angles. Single blade with narrowing height - ugh! And especially a knife with a curved belly! Those need special attention to maintaining the angle the blade edge meets the stone as you work across the edge. These angle guides can only train you to maintain the same height of the knife’s spine off the stone when what your focus should be is learning to feel the consistent angle the knife edge meets the stone. Those fixed guides can never do that.
This is the same issue with guided systems such
as KME or Wicked Edge. The width of the bevel
always gets wider toward the tip on these guides
because the knife gets shorter as you approach
the tip. You are getting into the thicker part of
the knife. Slowly raise the angel as you
approach tip. This is hard to master and
takes time and patience. Very good video
and I'm glad someone finely addresses this.
Are you saying the wicked edge or KME doesn't maintain the same sharpening angle on longer knives?
@@alexanderkempf9828 Guided sharpeners do keep the same
angle, but doesn't necessarily keep same bevel thickness.
Depends on the blade cut and how you place it in the jig.
The farther the tip is away the jaw line, the lesser the angle.
But then you have to be careful of what the heal is doing.
@@JohnDoe-zb7dz Hmm, I'm not able to visualize how the bevel thickness would change if the bevel thickness is dependent on how the primary bevel was created. Are there any videos on UA-cam that explain this? Because I'm not really able to understand what you're saying.
@@alexanderkempf9828 Because the tip is thicker closer to the spine. Now, if your blade
is straight as a Wharncliff or straight razor,
then you wouldn't have that issue.
@@JohnDoe-zb7dz I see what you're saying: that the nature of bevels creates a thicker part near the spine in a thinner part near the edge. So how does that have anything to do with the secondary bevel / edge when it comes to sharpening angle? As long as the bevel edge is consistently thick all the way across the length of the blade, there shouldn't be an issue?
Excellent demonstration and you are obviously right as to how the width of the knife affects the angle geometry...I need to work on my muscle memory, I had it once but I do a lot of honing on straight razors but that is much different.. What is your opinion on them wedges you rubber band to the stone? Thanks for your time and much success in your business..
it is ok to have a wobbly hand at the beginning, I still think sharpening without any jig best helps in building the muscle memory
@@KnivesandStones I'm getting there. I have a variety of knife widths I am dealing with.
Yes. Agreed. Perhaps the product that should be sold is a series of guides for different blade widths? In other words there should be three guides in the pack that can be used for different blade widths from chinese cleaver to pairing knife.
The height changes within the knife itself. He makes that clear.
It does give a relatively fixed angle for each knife, but not a consistent angle between knifes of different size as you noted. But when used with some common sense and an angle guide, it's an effective jig to help beginners. Personally, I use a stone so infrequently that I've never developed the ideal freehand muscle memory.
You’re an awesome and informative teacher. Thank you for your content
You've just saved me some money! What do you think of the new rolling sharpeners flooding the market?
I do like this video as it points out problems with these guides but you still can use this guide doing a bit of work. Attach the guide and lay the knife on flat wet surface and then check if shapened bevel angle matches across whole blade. If not adjust position AND ANGLE of GUIDE until desired angle is obtained.also this will help starters with keeping hand movement constant. Hope this helps.
What about beginner knife sharpeners?
It is all great, but how do you get 15 deg on one knife every single time, and 17 deg on another, also every single time?
Great video, thanks for posting it! This will help a lot with discussing angle guides in an accessible way to sharpening newcomers.
If the angle of the guide is shallower than the target bevel angle, it could protect the blade surface by acting as a backstop (as well as telling a newbie "you've gone too shallow!")
Makes total sense, thanks for sharing this information!
@9:32 That stone is definitely quality - you could hear the change in the first few seconds as it started working almost immediately.
Is it NANIWA
What you say is correct. Let's be clear though, the human hand cannot be more precise than a machine. These devices are simply meant as aids. I do not believe it is possible to maintain by human hand exactly the same angle across the entire blade. Even with muscle memory, a sharpie and a good eye, you will get a good approximation of your target angle within +/- 1-2 degrees which is good enough for a most chefs knives. These cheap devices are useful to help grip the spine on longer or wider blades and agree you should not run them across the face of the stone. For small knives and narrow blades these devices are in any case too large to be useful. Sharpal also makes an inexpensive interesting magnetic gadget with a spirit level that helps train you to get good muscle memory. If you want perfect control of an angle you need to get one of the many expensive mechanical devices that move the whetstone over the blade which are a good investment If you own a lot of knives or very expensive blades.
I like your honesty. Good video!
What's a good cheap knife to buy to learn sharpening? I have a Tanaka Ginsan Santoku and don't want to ruin it!
There is really no point to get a German knife or any knives other than a properly made J knife to get a good idea about sharpening angle, as those are quite different to a Japanese knife. I'd say if you can pick up a good priced Tojiro DP or even a Global would do the job.
11 minutes of waffle, condense it.
So what do you suggest I do. I don't sharpen or don't want to sharpen enough to achieve muscle memory.
Got it , thanks for the great advice.
Thanks..
You should have shown how the angle jig sharpens a knife with the ink on he blade.
The angle is fixed when you are shapening, from one end of the stone to the other end...not from one knife to another knife....
well said
Thank you tried doing a single bevel I scratched it up
Ive been freehand sharpening since 11 (now 30) and ive never bothered with one of these.
The first reason is not a good reason, because you shouldn't have an identical angle in different knifes. Also, you could choose/make an appropriate jig for every knife. But the second reason is important. I use a knife sharpening guide because my arms are too shaky and I get better results with a knife sharpening guide, but I have position the guide in a way to minimize the angle variance.
that is the exact reason one should practice freehand sharpening so that the hands can get steady.
@@KnivesandStones I agree, but my hands are quite a bit shakier than on average. I can do the work, which requires high precision: sharpening, cutting, threading a needle, loosening tiny knots, and so on. The only problem is that I can't stay relaxed when I do that job. I can do the freehand sharpening. My Yaxell Ran gets uniformly razor-sharp, usually use flat 3000 and 8000 Japanese wet stones, but it feels like I am not very good at freehand sharpening because I get a tiny bit sharper when I use a jig in a tricky way. I get not as a sharp knife, as it was out of the box, but very close. Any advice?
I am the 1.59K subscriber!
how do you remove the sharpie from your knife?
Acetone or rubbing alcohol. Acetone works best.
Excellent argument from mathematics.
great video!
I sharpen knives but never tried the guide. By the way, I am selling them like crazy. :)
i am the 1K subscriber !
You are awesome!
By the way. Can I come for a drink? I sow your collection in the back. :)
U right..
Tho you are right, there is also a lot of easy ways to overcome every thing you said is wrong with the guide.
now remember, this are intended for noobies not using very high end knifes and people that want a sharper knife, not an absolute perfect edge.
If you are into that, then you are correct, it's better to start learning freehand (or use a real good guide) than using this, but for most people who are not trying to learn how to sharpen, but instead just want to get a better cutting edge it is perfectly suitable.
Appreciate the feedback, however I have to disagree on this one. Buying a stone (or a set of stones) is certainly not cheap. Anyone who wishes to learn freehand sharpening should defintely start on a CORRECT note, with clear understanding of the theory behind freehand sharpening, rather then settle with something that is incorrect and flawed. Otherwise, a simple fixed angle sharpener or rod would just work fine and most likely be cheaper.
@@KnivesandStones again. You are right if you buy a branded stone and invest the time, money and efford. But this is usually an accesory for the 20usd sharpening stone sets.
There is always a place for everything. If they were complete useless to anyone they would not be this popular. Remember than more than 70% people are not interested in learning or technic. They own cheap kitchen knifes and they want to get a little extra use.of them.
@@VaracolacidVesci I agree most people don’t wanna take the time to learn freehand knife sharpening and just want to easily maintain their kitchen knifes
@@VaracolacidVesci I suppose it all comes down to how you want to build your house. Some of use are perfectionists, building our houses with the best possible equipment and materials ensuring they will stand the tests of time.
Others are not interested in the perfection. Caring little about the equipment or materials used so long as its done quickly and it keeps them dry.... -wait- ... Well, i suppose those folks probably don't build their houses so much as they just move from one mobile home to the next.
@@trupyrodice4462 to call yourself a perfectionest you surely make a lot of writing mistakes. And you are missing my point. It is not about me, I'm a truly perfectionist but not everything matters to me. For example: I don't care much about how great my tv is, simply because I don't watch as much tv. I try to buy a good one but not the best simply because I don't care enough about tvs to waste a ton of cash in something I don't even use. Even when I can get a better one, tvs are not my thing.
Free hand sharpening indeed is hard when you have cheap kitchen knives that have been bent and whose geometry leaves things up to debate.
Now that's a knife!
I recommend the angle guide for people who start sharpening, why? Because every time they start sharpening the angle always changes. At least with an angle guide it will be consistent.
Also for knives in restaurants (restaurant's knives not personal). Why? Based on my experience for example: today John sharpened the knife at 15° and tomorrow Vincent sharpened the same knife at 20-25°. This way the knife takes longer to sharpen and the angle keeps changing all the time. Just give them an angle guide so everyone will sharpen the restaurant's knives at the same angle.
For personal knives just do whatever you like. Keep the factory angle or adjust the angle that suits you
So true. But even if you give em the guide they'll throw it in the trash cause ey know better and they ain't wasting time with the plastic fiddly bit. And the stone only gets replaced when it snaps in half from having an U curve in the middle, "Just learn to compensate. Get gud." they say.
Not true. You can move the guide in and out of each knife to provide for the right angle for each knife. The guide is extremely useful
Yep, I bet if you use this instead of eyeballing the correct angle and you use it correctly, you can achieve much better results, comparable to a guided sharpening system.
That guide is only for 40-50 mm knife.
At least we will get even sharpening angle from tip to the heel, and front side and back
even but inconsistent
Make sense
I wished I watched this video before I began. RIP kitchen knife.
i have this sharpening guide, but I am not using it as it is intended to be. instead I use the ceramic rod on the side as a knife sharpener
The one thing I can say about a knife guide is it will scratch your knives so don't you go on a good knife (grit gets around guide) to me using a knife guide is a good way to start muscle memory because when you start sharpening knife's that's exactly what you need is muscle memory and this guide comes in handy temporarily until that's established. Imho
Pythagoras
Ah huh.... Big problem....... Big problem indeed. 🤔
It’s a aid for a novice
bungol
The ceramic rod is too hard and dug into my stones
It did a lot of damage.
It was a complete bitch to flatten out
The sharpie method does not ensure that the correct angle is maintained. IF the angle is already correct along the entire length AND you manage to remove all sharpie marks perfectly evenly, you have maintained the angle. If you start to remove the sharpie marks unevenly, what then? You have already changed the angle. Now you need to remove the remaining sharpie marks without any sharpening of the areas that are already clean, which is virtually impossible.
english accent . funni .
Thank you !!! I am going to trash my guides, right now !!!
💯💯🔥🔥🙏