MASTER MODES! ATMO DPS KINGS [STAR CITIZEN PVP]
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- Опубліковано 13 лип 2024
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I agree with A1 on this I think the speeds need to nudged up just a tad to give us the ability to maneuver because right now master modes is turning into a numbers game and DPS race.
Yep for sure. The ships in MM are super slow right now, even in acrobatic terms. I was doing some race stuff around a station while waiting for vanduul swarm to kick in and it just felt slooooow. You can barely get the G forces up. So not good for combat OR racing.
If it were up to me I would either make boost speeds the max speeds and make boost all about acceleration OR I would make SCM speeds 100m/s lower than boost speeds.
It also didnt help he was so slow he may as well have been stationary coordinating fire with people that probably werent in a discord coordinating together going by their tactics.
At this point we need instant heals to our ships 😂 it feels like destiny or the division as only numbers matter
I like how the new flight model is easier to pick up and to engage with compared to the current one but I don't like the dps and components war. There needs to be more of an emphasis on player skill. Also keep up the awesome videos!
Componenets need to matter and have pros/cons
"Aim at this one. Kill. Aim at this one. Kill." I've tried playing MM for a few hours in AC but it's just... boring.
@@ThaFiggyPuddingI think MM will shine a lot more in the open verse, compared to AC, PU offers for opportunities such as quantum hopping to reposition in the battle space better, currently not very important with the extremely high speeds but once we’re slowed down it’ll be more viable to be able to reposition entire wings using party markers to quickly hop a short distance.
My favourite thing to do in the PU right mow is take a deadbolt Fury down in heavy atmo. It's honestly a blast. Plenty of better options to fly but it's fun! I hope they keep or even extend the current delineation between vaccuum and atmospheric flight from live with different ships having their favorite environment.
Its hard to describe, it wasnt exciting, but it looked really cool, havingthe fight be so static meant that walls of chaf stayed on the screen longer, the feeling of saturating an enemy long range instead of accurately spending your small mag at short range looked cool aswell.
I think if they can make heavy fighters fit well with other types of ships its okay to have a less ''exciting'' type of ship, that plays more of a gunship role were you get cinematic views of the battle while not necesarily having to be a hotshot pilot.
I think options are king, and as long as light fighters are satisfactory to people who want their skill to matter, heavy fighters can be like this so we get both options, tho ofc if they can add a bit of extra skill cieling to it without making them feel like slow light fighters agin that would be even better.
What I can say, from a spectator standpoint is that this is way more fun to watch. I think that is really important when drawing a new audience and keeping the attention of old and new players. I think this is going to be much better for the game long term. It is easy to understand what is going on and it looks like a hell of a lot of fun! Great video man, keep it up!
As someone who loves the feeling of ship PvP in this game I’m very worried about the current state of master modes, I’m excited for a lot of the features and feel it will add more much needed depth to the game but with how slow everything is it’s very worrying that instead of adding depth it’ll be taking it away. The most fun I ever have in this game is being outmatched (either by being in a smaller weaker ship or in a heavier slower ship) and using my own skill and knowledge to fight back and do the impossible, I may not always win but the feeling of fighting against the odds and trying to claw away even a tiny victory is so amazing and with things being as slow as they currently are in MM it feels like no matter how good you are there just no chance to even try and fight back when you’re outmatched.
Good editing on this video; I liked the illuminates & breakdowns.
You should try it with a gunner. It changes things a bit. 2 vans with gunners is absolutely monster.
I think armour, destruction and weapon size might make this a bit different in the future. It does seem a bit slow, but as you said it is in atmo so control surfaces might change that dynamic a bit too.
4:18 on option 1 you said to put power to shields and tank, did CIG implement the damage reduction to shields when putting more power to shields in current MM already? Thanks
Do you have a gunner? I think gunner is mandatory to judge the vangard even more at this slow speed.
Yeah, it's an odd choice to judge the Vanguard while leaving half it's capability on the table. The biggest add is NOT the firepower, but the situational awareness that the turret gunner gives you that should help PREVENT you from getting into bad scenarios.
Although, that being said, the Vanguard should have it's speed brought back up a bit or have its' boost pool / recharge rate brought significantly higher.
I'm probably one of the worst PvP dogfighters that follows you. I'll admit that I'm enjoying mastermodes and actually feeling like I have a chance to compete. Loving that the larger ships feel tankier and can now contribute in a fight.
But I can definitely see your perspective on having a higher skill ceiling and bringing speeds up some.
I think they missed a good balancing option with athmospheric combat.. having more aerodramatic things matter, like wings so you can differenciate between ships good in space combat and those better in athmosphere, the game could have easily made a much more differenciated vessel set.
This will likely be part of the update that disables thrusters in atmosphere, which I don't think is included here.
Hi, I was wondering why would you use both Deadbolt5 and GVSR since the velocity doesnt match
I think they need to find a balance. Thinking “large scale”, it should make sense that the party with more guns and ammo wins the fight, but in the smaller scale fights, the ceilings need to be higher. They need to tune it so that large ships can be a more meaningful contribution in large battles, but also so that small ships can have a chance to dodge their big guns and have a more skill based fight with other small fighters.
Nice Video, i love to watch some vanguard content besides our actual master mode worries. If you have to bring a vanguard these days in 3.23 because you dont own an interceptor or just like it how would you fit it? Its a bit difficult at the moment with all the different weapon speeds.
Master Modes is like an obese dance battle right now. You're going to see a lot more Vanguards & larger ships, slow-boat DPS-ing & firing in formation like this unless some more adjustments are made before 3.23.
Oh just wait until the f8 is brought in, it's a "heavy" which flies like a medium. With the increased ballistic round count, 4km range....15% more dps than an inferno + having half it's weapons gimballed and twice the projectile speed. It might not be able to fight all day but on the extremely limited round counts now they can melt a C2. The trolls/griefers will be swarming the new players that MM is supposed to be helping...space truckers and industrial players as well, even more so if ballistic cannons get a bump too for large ship hunting.
Loving the breakdown of decision making. This is superb content.
I like the new gunnery system with . Master mode and i like that theres room left for boost to push you beyond scm. Is the solution simple to just increase boost top speed or speeds as a whole?
MM combat footage has cured my insomnia. Just another unexpected benefit of Master Modes!
funny, it's quite beneficial eh? It has been like a nicotine patch + gum all at once in fighting my SC addiction/urge to play.
This was sad to watch tbh, because it was boring to watch. It was obvious what was going to happen a good 5 or more seconds ahead of anyone blowing up.
Defiantly need a speed increase but even more than that they need realistic g-forces applied to the pilot because as of now it is very unrealistic to be pulling 22 g's when sustained g-forces of 6 g's is fatal.
I was in the game and still getting used to master modes and you're right...in atmosphere you dont have enough mobility to do much and it turns into a dps race. I have sort of reached a point where in MM AC when an atmo stage is loading I'm a little disappointed as space combat is way better now (but still in need of work).
Edit: also, good fights and i really enjoyed playing... especially when the space map loaded up.
I’d really like to see ships with turrets run with turret gunners. What difference does the turret make to threats who’re on you? Is the turret meaningful? Apologies if you do have a gunner and I’m just not seeing it.
Love your content. With the changes to BH coming would you be able to revisit the Hawk i think the EMP will be much more useful than previously just with how close a lot of the combat is happening now. Super interested in whether or not the ship is useful now or if the paper hull is still too much of an Achilles heel.
I can't wait for control surfaces 😩
Most of the ships in the game based on their aerodynamics. Judging how they look would be next to useless and ammo. They're going to be 100% fighting gravity on thrusters alone which should make them hot garbage for any maneuvering. Any spaceship that actually has wings like an airplane should dominate an atmo. Flying cubes like the mari or even the starfish shouldn't even be able to fly an ammo
Yeah, i was disappointed with my experience of MM in atmosphere, no maneuvering ability meant bigger ships had a huge advantage. Maybe if your organized with a wing man you can string out bigger ships before it's too late.
If you want to kill a ship say more than two or three tiers larger than you ,as Quint would say “your gona need a bigger boat”
Im in a 50/50 boat i like the idea but it needs heavy tuning i do like the current system but it favors heavily to light fighters and both dont give me that full dogfight i like to see. But the old/ current system is closer to how id like the game to be then mm. Maybe theres a middle ground cig can reach but it might not be right away
450 m/s SCM with 1400 m/s guns, it's right infront of us
For me, with MM the game is going to be much more about strategies pre-fight than in the fight it self. If they balance well, in PU, what will matter is the intel that u have to the battle ahead.
It will be in Heavy Atmo? It will be against what ships? What formation is the enemy probably going to do? Which ships will do well do accomplish the objectives it being beating a VIP, full kill everyone or dominate a area. Do we use Stealth and infiltrate in to the objective, do we board the ships? Which components and ships do we need to do that?
I personaly like that much more than dogfighting and watching your vids I dont think that the Dogfighitng will vanish, but it will have to be much more than just choose a meta ship and battle between skills, what ship and what strategy you and your team choose will matter much more and the skills to overcome flaws in the strategy will be much more valuable. So that's what I feel about MM, the game is moving towards a direction of a Chess game and a Naval style, be it a smaill battle between squadrons or a large scale battles with capital ships.
How is the Hammerhead holding up in MM? My understanding is that it is shredding light fighters, which would be about time. If it takes 8 people to crew a Hammerhead, it should take at least 2 x single seat fighters (16) to even compete. Otherwise multicrew will never make sense.
We will do hammerhead soon
8 people on hanmmerhead loses to 8 single player conties for sure
Isn't it the introduction of physical ship armor that's supposed to be the main variable to fix this problem? What other unimplemented feature can remedy this other than that?
Connies? Well yeah...a hh is meant to fight light-medium fighters @@Ono_on0
@serenedevil6798 the speed reduction, and how guns now work, makes it possible to hit pvp fighters.
Sorta reminds me of the old alpha v1.0 Super Hornet gimballed Omni-6/Sledge AC metas. Just park and turret, DPS and armor always win.
I think that with the majority of the player base being people who have less time and often family responsibilities, it is difficult to dedicate so much time to reaching a very high skill cieling. Perhaps the skill cieling is too low at the moment, time will tell. But I think for the majority of players, this is the right direction. And for me personally, I am feeling very happy and positive with this direction and feel of MM.
Tuning and balancing is obviously still going to come once they get PU data on this, but I am seeing so many more benefits to this and a much happier community overall. Plus, it means that us pilots who are not aces, we can still group up with friends and have an impact.
what would happen if you go into NAV mode against players? i've only tried it (and not skilled at all) against AI and if they get a missile on it's a pain to out run, wonder how effective it'll be when there's no options?
The vanguard is much slower than the light and medium fighters. You video of those fighters was more interesting. Do you think vanguard speeds should be increased to make flying that type of ship more enjoyable?
I look at all these ships in SC and honestly only a few of them look as if they would be worth a hill of beans flying in atmo, even those lack control surfaces and aerodynamics that would be necessary for high speed atmospheric maneuvering on the level of modern jets if that's what you're looking for,... Now, I can see the possibility of that in space, yet we still have to realize that the faster our engagements are, the more LAG will effect hit ratios and as battles get larger that may become an issue too. These ships are going to basically rely on thrusters to do all the work in atmospheric maneuvering so it should feel a little sluggish having to counter gravity, wind resistance, retro'ing off velocity to flip directions, etc.. I'm interested to see what others think.. I won't offer any suggestions as I've not had a chance to test MM enough to offer any first hand opinions of the current model. just got the dual VKB's so I will as soon as I figure out what to map where.. :-/
The control surfaces is the thing that's going to make a huge difference in atmo I think. F16 has a turn rate of around 20 degrees per second. I think the balance of Gs across the board should likely be cut in half in space, the really high G stuff should happen in atmo, using thrusters to deviate from the flown vector of travel severely should result in tumbling out of control. We should be encouraging chase fights in atmo. In space, much higher speed cap with lower Gs will make all the good stuff about the existing flight model more accessible as the pacing will happen at a rate most people can percieve what's happening.
I preferred ships having speed. Unfortunately you can only really have one or the other unless they make some kind of system that compliments fighting/targeting fast opponents. Although personally what I would have preferred is having a specific weapons or weapon types that counter high speed ships over nuking speed in general.
The atmo flight needs control surfaces and gravity. Currently gravity sucks, there is no energy exchange between the speed and altitude (normally planes loose speed to gain altitude, then loose altitude for higher speed. This doesn't work in atmo. I always find it silly to loose speed when I dive into the atmosphere, I understand that the atmosphere has density, but what about the gravity(
I've been trained to fly by a retired RAF flight instructor for the past 2 years in DCS World. Hopefully flight control surfaces will fix these issues in atmo.
1) The example with the Vanguard coming in at your 2-7-0 relative: With him ingressing fast and your air speed so low, it would of been one hell of an overshoot que if he went behind you. Then you could have easily got behind him. Or if you knew there were a ton of people around you, dump the nose and regain energy. Or like you said; high order, don't go to the merge in the first place. F-15E life.
2) After FCS is in, it'll be interesting to see if a rate versus radius meta emerges. This was a number of patches ago, but I tested the Warden in Hurston's atmo. I set full power forward and started to go around a level turn. I was able to do ~2.3g's at ~230m/s sustained. Add boost and it climbed to ~5.3g's at ~230m/s. So it would rate around the circle at more degrees per second. Right now, keeping your speed up doesn't matter in atmo because magic thrusters. The neat bit is if someone toggles thrusters back on (or doesn't have FCS) to try to get into a radius fight and has to seal the deal before they overheat their maneuvering thrusters.
We'll see how well CIG pulls off FCS. Some people have arts and crafts, I judge.
Is it Tim Davies? He seems like a good guy, I've thought about joining his DCS school.
Does the hornet still have 25g acceleration in master modes? Honestly pvp hasn’t been very fun with the hornet cheese going on lately.
I thought that MM atmo was going to be more realistic and less arcady like it is now, because that isnt realistic at all lol
this flies like a grand marquis/crown vic with armor and wings, a sky boat
Perfect entry from the Sauce machine at the end. Heavy fighter "gunship" team gameplay seems to rule the skies. Not sure there is a place for light fighters in that scenario at all. Clearly.
Theyll have their role but fighting a crewed "gunship" isnt it
@gyratingwolpertiger6851 if their role can be done by anything other than a light fighter they will become what the crap ships of current Live flight model are, extinct.
@@androssthered1157 Yeah because a Warden has the agility and acceleration to harass and chase targets lol
@gyratingwolpertiger6851 if a team of heavy fighters kills it then there is no chase. The Wardens are not the best heavy fighters by far. And if you have noticed, the only light fighter we've seen so far evaporates under the fire of a single warden. Now imagine better Wardens working in tandem. Wondering if light fighters will have a place in the game.
@@androssthered1157 Chuckles in Buccaneer out running them
Seems like they're creating a WoW gear grind scenario but with ships, where any casual who no-lifes the game will eventually have the kit to beat a more skilled player. Except it won't be on paper. It'll be the inevitable mathematically predetermined outcome of every engagement. It's outmoded thinking and it will be prohibitive to the pursuit of dogfighting in-game if they go in that direction.
Not enough translational acceleration at such low velocities leaves everyone unable to evade anything. Translational acceleration needs to go up by many fold. You shouldn't be able to juke everything like crazy, but you should be allowed to apply the correct amount of thrust across the three translational axis. Not just be a sitting goose...
Definitely need higher speeds for more piloting to happen
we did end up getting in the idris a couple days later. nargosvoge has it on his youtube channel.
I would like to see you do the latter though, you and that pilot fly 2 Gladius... I honestly bet the outcome would be the same. You both are highly skilled and work well as a team. I see you do this now in the PU as well my friend. I think its great that the Vanguards have high alpha damage now, and if they role in a pack they should be the dominent force. Put multiple ace fighters in the mix, of course your gonna get this result.
Assembly line slaughter is what this is. hawt dayum we need armor sooooooooon.
I doubt armor will do much about this. It's just gonna take longer but the result is the same. Numbers win.
This is also an arena commander PVE mode and if it's like Vanduul Swarm the TTK on a ship changes with the round. The first few rounds ships are made of paper.
To be fair there was 3 of them engaging targets that were fighting them one at a time basically feeding them kills.@@I_Ronin_I
Honestly I'm so apprehensive about this. I feel like light fighters are going to disappear and we're just going to see Lightnings and Vanguards flying around now.
TBH, I got mixed feelings about the new MM. When I first tried it, I was not fond of it. I felt like switching from a racing game to a truck sim. But after seeing what road CIG is trying to take I started to understand maybe some sacrifices are necessary. Less speed will allow CIG to do component and engineer gameplay or RP, like flight formation for fleet (show off XD), but does make it sound very cool and easier on new players which leads to more -money- players. I really don't how CIG can satisfy everyone but I want both, so it's up for CIG to find the balance.
So the Vanguard has increased to size 4 ship now, doesn't look much different to a bunch of 600i "dogfighting" lol.
Keep in mind that A1 did all that without a turret gunner. CIG really needs to increase speeds so lights and mediums can dodge heavy fire. If not, the heavy fighters will be the meta.
And return to the LF meta (hornet aside) we have now, where large ships are also borderline useless because fighters can dodge out all their shots? Hmmm. How do you balance for that?
I feel the Connie counters the Vanguard quite well. The opponents kept going at the heavy fighter with the light fighter but the heavy beats the light. They should've hopped in a Connie to take out the vanguards.
There are definitely still tactics in eve that make it so it's not purely a numbers game.. plenty of fights that we have won 5 on 25 given the right situation :)
Is this ptu?
I think its maybe; it looked fine enough to me since a heavy fighter is going to be slower then a light fighter, but have higher DPS, armor and shields to make up for it. The issue is more that the flight system is not complete yet (missing control surfaces as A1 pointed out) plus each ship is still in tuning depending on its role (interceptor, light/medium/heavy fighter, gunship, etc) so its hard to judge right now since its less judging overall MM, but judging more how each classification of ship fits its role and the counterplay that could occur (both this video and last video had really good example of using different ship roles; using interceptors to chase down fleeing or badly damaged ships, using light fighters to dogfighter other light, maybe medium fighters, so on and so forth). For me, so far; it feels more like what CIG have explained about how using the right set up of ships to counter certain other ships and visa versa and probably the more you scale up ships from sudo capital, frigates to capital ships, how they will effect fleet combat in turn, including uses for the anti capital ship fighters like the Ion and Inferno. For now, I think its on the right track, but, as A1 stated, needs more tuning to find its home as well as for the other flight systems to come online before really being able to make a solid case on whether or not the flight system is good or not since right now, its like trying to compare a complete puzzle to one with maybe half its pieces missing; you can't judge the full picture till we have it complete, ready to observe how its meant to work as a complete whole
iirc this will be the patch where the atmo aspects get refined
Hello,
before you start to read this, english is not my language of birth so i hope it will be understandable and thank you for your patience.
There are 2 things that are not in the game right now that i think are crucial to completely have a view of the future of combat in SC.
Ingeneering and Maëlstorm (armor tanking and penetration)
Imagine what the fight would have look like with this 2 things.
Your gunner might have needed to go repair some parts and the fight would have been even shorter and impossible in the exemple of the video.
Or don't forget that the Vanguard is a Tank among the 2 seats fighters and your armor would have absorbed a lot of hit and you would be swimming in a sea of bullet with allmost no care.
For exemple (speculation)
The vanguard armor is so thick that all the size 2 and below are completely useless
(the 4 front canon are now useless and the turret gunner is also useless if your are not in an harbinger [against another vanguard])
The size 3 only penetrate if your are shooting at the same spot
(adding skill to the fighter attacking to precisely shooting at the same spot and adding skill on the vanguard pilot tanking for mitigating the damage of in coming fighter while is gunner shoot them down)
So the only weapons deadly enough to really threaten you would be the size 5 canon on the nose
(really low rate of fire so not so easy to really take down components if the defending pilot maneuver a lot [no more health pool so the only way to "die" is to be desactivate with no more components])
With that in mind and in the situation of the 2v1 vanguards where your start in a bad position
Even with low max speed, the skill of the pilot is crucial and rewarding
If he is able to mitigate the damage with a lot of little mouvement to protect his components while sniping theirs (so in this situation the 2 other vanguard are less skilled)
I think you would be able to turn on them and win although the raw DPS give you loser
Which is apparently not the case in this version of MM because you have a health pool and no armor to "nullify" damage.
Also don't forget the vanguard is a really big and heavy 2 seats fighter, so i am expecting of it that it is really slow for his category
I would want to see the flight model of the Scorpius and the Hurricane, and here i would expect ships far more maneuverable
In the end i agree with you that a want a skilled based game rather than a raw datasheet DPS game but with the lack of the 2 things above, it is hard for me to tell this is going in the wrong way or the good way
The flight combat in SC is going to change a lot this year with MM and hopefuly engeneering and maêlstorm
For me i'll wait and see before starting to scream this is going the wrong way ^^
I have no idea how CIG meaningfully plans to do Engineering and repair during battle (when it matters)
It will be impossible unless they scrap the whole GeForce system which should be in effect to balance combat.
How can you run around fixing the ship when you are constantly pulling 6+ G's? The engineer will be a constant pancake
@@markreiffel807 Magboots ?
I don't konw either, they never spoke about it i think.
Maybe the "in person" engeneering in combat in ships like Vanguards will not be really worth it so the problem of GeForce will be none existant and we will only stick to engeneerring in the HUD with power management
The real engeneering gameplay may only be in Bigger ships wilh a lot less maneuvrability
I think a middle way is fine for me. This is the first model of Master Modes, things will certainly change. It's probably not that easy for CIG to find a middle ground that's fun for the flying pros like you and the casual players. You can't build a new flight model just for the pros. Not everyone can afford a Virpil joystick setup costing several thousand dollars. Not everyone can be an ace pilot like you. I admire your flying skills and enjoy watching your videos. As a mouse and keyboard pilot, I can't do it like you. But what annoys me about the new flight model is this auto-gimbal. I hope they reconsider this and if not in 3.23 then in a later version.
Some of the best pilots at the top ends use mouse and keyboard. Saying that it's a requirement to have peripherals or Virpils is a cop out, 100%.
Leave SCM speeds. Boost the boost!
Seeing how ships like the Vanguard perform with MM has unfortunately sort of confirmed a lot of my earliest misgivings about the system. While I know you're trying to be charitable here, as much as you can, it's difficult to see how CIG didn't really see this coming when so many in the community did.
I really do not want Eve fans to dictate the direction of this game, the whole reason I backed SC was because MMOs like Eve just didn't cut it. Hopefully we'll see a bit stronger pushback once this gets into the PU and less tuned-in people really kind of start to experience the consequences of this new system. As an often (but not always) solo player I just can't see how this is a universe that I would be motivated to spend time in, which is really sad considering how long I've backed this project and dreamed about a feature complete game.
I agree
MM needs to be smoothed out, my biggest gripe is the slow speeds and how your ship slows down after stopping boost, that speed bleed off should happen more naturally though maneuvering instead of thruster braking.
I still think missiles should have been the go to solution to take out kiting fighters and high speed jousting, make them more effective against fleeing targets, add a proximity fuse (like most modern AA missiles) and a slightly higher speed, say 2000m/s instead of 1500m/s for a S1 and that would have fixed a lot of situations. Make flares less effective when targeting a ship from behind and make the fleeing ship's rear shield drop from engine heat
Hoping control surfaces helps this a bit, right now this reminds me of Descent from 1994...
i just want multi crew to matter. it seems like mm is a start to that
Without incredibly powerful turrets you cannot overcome the advantage of running 2 ships and having 2 targets to deal with plus twice the shields/hull hp to overcome. This is why although a Hurricane is effective and can overcome a single ship at times it is rarely used. The idiotic comments of "well a Scorpius can outperform an F8 on paper" is laughable since it doesn't in game, requires 2 players and cannot keep up, not to mention it "like the Hurricane "having half the shielding, a lower top speed and the Scorp's vulnerable wings which also make convergence difficult having to choose close vs distant.
In fighters it is a bonus to having a crew if under fire but not an equalzer for 1 pilot per ship combat.
@Blindside337 yeah, I have other issues with the f8.
But as I said above mm is a start. It will be (I hope) engineering that masivly increases survivability of multi crew ships. And life support that increases viability. And sanitation is a total mystery to me.
Atmo combat definitely makes a lot less sense than space combat lol
Controversial opinion, I don't think pilot skill should be the biggest deciding factor. Pilot skill is already the decider for 1v1s, it doesnt need to decide group battles. In a group battle it should income down to other factors, like durability, damage, range, allies/enemy's, etc. Which it does.
To me pilot skill is a subsection of defense and damage, it shouldn't be the whole pie. I do think there's room for more skill expression than current mm offers, but I never want to see a return to the point where a pilot could easily 1v3 without taking damage if they were good enough at pip manipulation.
I do want to see the speeds slow enough that you have to accept that you'll get hit if you fight, but I do want the most speed and maneuverability possible in that range.
To me the most important thing is that it should feel like an uphill battle to fight something bigger than you. A very winnable uphill battle mind you, but people should be undertaking those fights knowing that if they take even one or two bad maneuvers it could be game over, and that if there are easier targets around its not worth the risk. not the meta we've had for years, that is looking at a slower craft and seeing a free kill.
I haven't played much master modes myself, do heavies have a better chance at disengaging in space? I don't expect them to be able to run away, but they should at least be able to get away long enough to start getting shields back.
I feel like no matter what they do, atmosphere fights will always be dps focused because there's so much less room for maneuvers.
I will say, heavy vs heavy combat was always/will always be a dps race, dps is kind of their thing. And I don't think it's a bad thing for that specific matchup. It gives incentive to not send heavies into mirror matches, which makes for a more diverse battlefield. Heavies live and die by trading blows, and most of the skill in a heavy fight is to be able to force those trades, it's only natural that when fighting other heavies they would try to trade blows with eachother.
Though I don't think your thing about focusing a target to take out their dps is an exclusively mm thing. In every game with a greater than 1 ttk you always want to focus targets down. Doesn't matter if you're master modes or older flight models, you always wanted to focus people down, because that's less things to worry about.
It felt even more slow & sluggish than normal.
Its a shame it makes the game not as intense or dynamic. A numbers game isn’t what we wanted for ship combat, we still want the skills of piloting to come into play.
Why do i get the feeling that people who love pvp and people who hate it are both gonna hate master mode, lol.
It's like getting the feeling this is going to hurt as an 18 wheeler runs a red light in front of you. kidding but serious lol you are correct.
i like the direction its going, its going not just towards having the best equipment but also focused on numbers how many people you got vs them. thats what the star citizen i want. 1v1 should always be a toss up between skill, but 1v2, the 2 should always have a strong advantage.
This has me excited for multicrew and capital ships.
As far high Octane fighter gameplay like DCS or war thunder, CIG have a long way to go.
Aside from the vanguard. I thought the Connie felt really good in MM.
I dont know what to think about master modes ...but it seems to me that there are 5m citizens and very few play AC or do any dog fighting. I am the worst dogfighter i have ever seen, but i am interested in learning however it is so hard to get started without finding someone else at thw same level to train with! I think something needs to change and i am hopeful master modes is it
We need to get cig to realize that they made combat less fun and has little to no skill needed. The game needs a higher skill ceiling!
Couldn't agree more 👏
Turrets. Use them.
at least vanguards are used the way it was intended :P But i agree this is too slow.
Dang dude, this sucks! I like slower speeds, but to be trapped like that, how does that work when death is going to be so meaningful
We asked for slow speeds, me including, I didn't play for some time, don't know how it feels, but doesn't look good.
i have zero desire to learn MM , i think i will just take a break when this drops.
I can see ships like the ion and inferno becoming too good at things they aren't supposed to be good at in mm
The f8 on ballistic gatlings puts out 15% more dps with twice the projectile speed than an Inferno. Rarely used before due to round count but were able to melt a player C2 almost comically. Now increased 4km ranges and the higher round counts I wouldn't stress over an Ares.
@@Blindside337 as much as I hate an f8 meta, the f8 is still an air superiority fighter after all, the ares isn't supposed to be good at dog fighting at all but it likely will be in mm
I agree with the sentiment that Master mode is making things slower, however something needs to be done. Because right now Avenger one in a hornet, versus six Avenger ones all fully crewing a hammerhead ends in the Hammerhead being destroyed no contest.
As Star Citizen sits right now my friend group and I will not take any multi cruise ships if we know there is going to be pvp, because we know we will just die.
The speeds are too damn slow. They really need to make a compromise between 3.22 and MM. It also feels more like an arcade experience versus a simulator with MM.
Thanks for the video. Content is great. That shit looks boring as hell. Holy shit.
Woot! First again!
All these vids about master modes yet every time i go in ac to check it out it's empty. I fully agree though. Master modes combat is missing a sense of flight. It feels way too arcade-ish. Very flat and one dimensional - point nose and shoot. Doesn't feel like you're accomplishing anything by flying better.
This was bound to happen, I've said this but in space you can't ww2 style dogfight because their no real concept of losing or gaining energy.
I like the new master modes, I was a better pilot before it, but it’s more fun when everyone is a threat. Sure DPS plays a massive part in it now. But when we get maelstrom damage, the skill will be in hitting the right parts of the ship to kill it or disable it quickly. The big heavy ships like the vanguard are basically A10s, they should be more sluggish and tanky, I love that a fighter has 0 chance of taking on a fully crewed hammerhead now too. It shouldn’t be possible. The game is more fun, even if it’s space magic explanation for why it’s like this doesn’t really fit with my realism head and that I know now that a more novice pilot could actually take me on now, where I’d have enjoyed cutting them to shreds in the past.
Its fun for about 10 minutes. A novelty.
They make us jump through so many god damn hoops for the sake of immersion. This feels like another middle finger.
It's a space game, set 1000 yrs in the future. We are dogfighting at WW2 speeds....in open space. Not engaging in the slightest.
Why does cig kill every game loop in alpha after it's tested? Why don't they just leave everything lucrative, and wipe every main patch? This company treats the players like stockholm victims.
How long have vending machines been a placeholder? create a trigger, program the text and spawn in a drink with a sfx attached....
I still find it fun. I also think I’ll find it more fun if anyone is a threat, even a relative noob. Some people won’t, but let’s see how it works in the game before we cry about it ruining it.
Master Modes are a step in the wrong direction. It's as boring to watch as it is to fly. It's more like War Thunder now. Blatantly unrealistic and arcady. "I'm a PC game and I'm a space sim". Anyone remember that line? Because Cig seems to have forgotten.
It looked and felt slow because everyone was not dog fighting in atmosphere but rather fighting the same why they would in space. For example going to nose to nose with another fighter. Right now there is no punishment for that. You can’t stall out, Loosing speed doesn’t hurt your ability to maneuver. Once flight surfaces are in the game and there is punishment for not maintaining speed dog fighting in atmo dog fights will speed up as it has to. It’ll also feel more like dog fighting in DCS were their is chases and trying to drop behind your enemy.
Speed is not the issue with atmospheric flight. The problem is an incomplete system for it. For example there were times that your speed went so slow you should have stalled out. Also if we had flight surfaces the turn rate you did as some times would not be possible due to drag and other forces affecting the ship.
Right now atmospheric flight is this weird cross of space and atmospheric flight. It makes it feel janky and incomplete. Control surfaces will help but it’s hard to judge how much until we get it. Hopefully we don’t get master modes in the PU without it.
(This opinion is based on this video specifically a few of your most recent videos on MM 3.22.1. I have not had the chance to fly in the PTU as of yet.)
One of the coolest video of Avenger__One is the one that he was fighting in atmo, against a bunch of guys and at the end he killed them all by doing all kinds of cool maneuvers... None of that can happen now - master modes suck, Im sorry, but they suck.
SC combat FPS, ground, and ship has taken a nosedive. Not sure what happened to the guys in charge around 2.6, but holy shit. Gravel was awesome a while back- ship flight was pretty damn good a while back. FPS was much more methodical and positional. The game- combat wise is turning into a bag of ass.
I've been interested in Star Citizen for a while now, especially the flight and dogfighting aspects of it. I've played it off and on with a good amount of enjoyment, but for me, the new master modes are a heart breaker. I'm coming from DCS, so my viewpoint might be a little bit skewed, but I love the long term rewards of slowly developing a high level of skill in something over a long period of time and it makes me really sad to see when developers intentionally lower the skill ceiling.
I think part of it is a real easy fix ,, simply make shield/hull armour impervious to lower tier weapons ,,, it’s just fucking stupid to have a light fighter being able to kill a much larger ship ,, no way in hell should a single x wing be able to take down a star destroyer
The fights of the future guys! No more positional fights, just point and click fights only, heavy ship will be the meta (ships that cost much eheh) and there is still the same problem of current fly model and more. What a great work cig 😂
Bro I really don’t know how people can keep trying to convince me this is a “step forward” with the flight model, this was not exciting at all, it just looks like a console game at this point
I'm a ferocious opponent of Master Modes and anything that goes against the sandbox aspect of the game. Plus the way I see it, they are gonna be after multiple rounds of re-tuning once armor and realistic atmo flight characteristics come into play. I think most of the bad aspects of the current flight model can be either fixed or vastly mitigated by serious rebalancing and fine tuning. Jousting could be punished by specialized weapons, combat reset could be tempered with slower shield regen rate or tiemout, there's a wealth of solutions available.
I really liked the idea of Star Engine, if they are thinking of themselves as competitors to Unreal Engine. CIG I am grown exhausted hoping some developer will validate my play style. Just sell me the engine and let me tweak the settings. 5 million backers will never agree, nor should they have too. Sell the engine for the community to build sandboxes.
I don't like MM, is like fighting kind of coupled with speed limiter on, the current model is about flying skills, yes, is harder to master if you are aiming for top PvP experience, but that's what motivates me to PvP currently in SC, I have tried MM and it gets me bored, I get pop easy, I pop easy, respawn and then run again.. nope.. nope, it does not make the cut with me. I feel that all the work/time/training and cash I have invested in SC will come to a hard stop once the MM gets introduced... most likely I will end up doing space tourism, and for that, yeah, SC still has a lot beautiful things to see.
same the only thing that interest me right now in sc would be exploration everything else got killed with Gamification.
i want too see less floaty combat. we need LIFT, Weight, Drag! i wana see ships plummet or lose maneuverability when they are moving too slow. we need aerodynamic ships being prominent dog fighters in atmosphere.
for the sake of enjoyment, the skill ceiling for fighters needs to be high. there is so much joy in learning and expanding your skillset when it comes to flying smaller ships. Multi crew needs to be more effective(than current PU) to help close that skill & numerical gap. (a multi crew of 5 should be = or near enough to 5 individual ships depending on role) An effective gunner should be able to kill a solo pilot. or at least keep them at bay.
If a brand spanking new pilot can compete with a skilled pilot in an equivalent fighter we have a problem. But a large mutli crew ship should be able to deal with a small handful of fighters regardless of individual Pilot skill. In the PU's current state for eg: a fully crewed hammerhead is a picnic for a small team of fighters which is also a problem.
If we can land somewhere in the middle between current master modes and current PU I'll be happy. I love dogfighting in the PU's current state but team fights become extremely difficult to pull off if you have a wide range of ships and ability in the air. We've often tried using ground assets as an Org to create area denial. and from time to time it works - but current PU flight models make it mostly ineffective.
I think they're on the right path and I hope we find a sweet spot eventually, the only way we won't is if CIG give up and have a "that'll do" attitude.
On one hand this battle was enjoyable to watch because everyone seemed more in "each other's faces" and it was easy for me to tell what the other ships were doing, and I suck at pvp. Sometimes with the current game it just looks like a tiny spec on the screen whipping past you at 500m/s. On the other hand, this looked kind of dull and just seemed like whoever shot first won.
I think the MM speeds are too low and something should be done to help with the idea that whoever gets shot first is basically dead. I also think that the non-combat ships seem like they are kind of screwed in MM.