@16bit Classics I'm a purist with a self trained eye and I would definitely notice it like Vincent. Of course, at 12 feet away and with less than ideal vision, I would probably not notice much detail at all except for the HDR nearly engulfing my sense of vision. Regardless, it is empirically true that the film contains DNR which is a double edged sword in reducing picture detail.
@First name Last name Unlikely. If that were true older movies would look bad as well. Play total recall 4k and you'll notice that's nonsense. This looks worse than the Hobbit tbh.
@First name Last name What he said just proves this wasn't a remaster from the actual 35mm film, because that doesn't have CGI. They would have to re-do all of the CGI and would take several millions of dollar. They just A.I upscaled a 1080p or 2k copy.
@@UnitedRedDevil13 Not an excuse at all and not how film works. You could easily print the 35mm film with the 2k VFX and still have look sharper because the film stock itself *the grain* becomes sharper. The 4k version still look like shit and has less detail than the 1080 bluray, no matter which shot you compare. Every. single. shot. has its detail scrubbed away.
Thank you for discussing the evils of DNR/EE in this movie. It's also present in the other LOTR movies and the fake sharpening was even added to the Hobbit movies too. It's a shame because the HDR and sound quality is incredible.
I love seeing the texture of film, BlueRay is one of the few ways to get film's that can hold the quality needed to retain all the detail of the film texture. one step forward with the HDR two steps back with the blur filter
@@drewb.9497 sure it's not all bad but I just hope it's not something that will be trendy. They decided to make the older films shot on film match the newer films shot on digital & to do it they had to lose some of the visual quality of the film to remove the film grain. When I first got some blu ray films I loved seeing all the texture that I had never seen before, the fine details that had always been lost on older mediums. So to see it removed is a saw spot for me. I did photography at UNI, always loved hand printing film/prints. The texture of the film is important, you chose a film stock to match the project for colour, behaviour & grain. The grain adds contrast which gives the illusion of sharpness (and gives you something to focus with the Loupe when hand printing, when printing if the grain is sharp on the print but the image is soft you know you missed the focus on the shot and not the focus on the enlarger). edit I also do understand that 99% of people will never know what has been changed or even care, it's not a change that relay effects the main enjoyment of the film. I understand it's more of a personal thing that i enjoy the texture of film so much, how it changes with stock and the softness and sharpness it can give & variety over time from classic films to more modern ones.
For me the DNR is really the killer. I find the Extended-Bluray to be the most organic way to watch the movies. HDR and color timing might be great on the 4k bluray but the DNR takes you out of the movie so many times. Look how Gollum looks digital on the 4k version.
Fellowship has the extremely green tint on EE BD, though. Best thing would be to make your own BD with non green normal BD and green tinted extnded scenes.
@@turrican4d599 Thats not a good solution. The normal BD (theatrical) has DNR all over it, weak contrasts and an overall softness. The Extended bluray is much sharper and has a punchier image. Conclusion: there is currently no bluray version of these movies that honors the quality of the movies Bluray (Theatrical): soft, DRN, low contrast Bluray (Extended): sharp, punchy but weird green tint 4k bluray: Sharp, DNR, digital look, but great color timing HDR Pick your poison...
Honestly Gollam looks like crap period. Not real looking.The DNR has a few standout bad moments, but for the most part, the colour and resolution improvement are far better than the blu ray.
you should do a top10 list of your most favorite/ recommended to buy HDR blurays. Many ppl would fall back to that once they get their hands on a good new TV^^
My 4K steelbook edition arrived today, I am very happy. I remember watching the first movie on VHS I borrowed from a friend on a very bad TV so I'm actually grateful we can nitpick like this and I look forward to watching the extended version in 4K :).
The DNR really stands out negatively throughout the trilogy. I was very disappointed. So much potential lost there. I absolutely love these movies and it would be such a great watching experience (LG C9) if it wasn't for the noise reduction.
It's unfortunate there isn't a "definitive" version. The 4K version is still worth it over the standard Blu-ray imo, because the color's are much better and the HDR looks great. But the DNR is really unfortunate, though isn't always as blatant as the scene he used to showcase it.
This is not DNR, this is an upscaled movie. they used davinci resolve which has a function called superscale in sharp mode. I find it strange that Warner being a large studio they have not used another better method, Topaz gigapixel does a better job.
@@jerchongkong5387 I think it's mostly DNR because the difference between upscaling isn't that huge 🤔. EDIT: though it depends on how much motion blur there was in the original material.
Thanks for spotting it first, Elliot. Watching your clip just after they were released avoided an expensive mistake for me. I love my extended edition blu-rays; "my precious" they are 😂
Yeah, i couldn't cancel my preorder after watching that video, but was able to sell the set unopened on ebay, it even sold for more than I paid for it, so the ebay tax was covered. Got the itunes 4K versions instead for 3,99 each, at least the HDR is ok, and there are apparently very few details to begin with, so the higher compression is not a big issue.
@@ThereisNOpandemicWAKEUP yeah, it is 4k Dolby Vision. I actually bought the first two parts in HD in anticipation of the upgrade to 4k, since i wasn't sure for how long the 3,99 price will stay, so it was a small gamble, but worked out fine.
@@HNedel Really? So how does it stack up compared to this release? It's a shame because dolby vision is not watchable on windows :(. I didn't see any pirate rip either.
As someone who plans to work with hdr content in the future these videos are very informative and educational. I loved when you pointed out colors outside the 709 range. Thanks for the work you do as a hdr evengelist!
As this seems to not be a proper 4K restoration but an upscale then yes, they probably shouldn't have used it but sometimes when going from film to 4K, film grain is pronounced so much that some DNR is useful and beneficial. Case by case basis and less is more type of thing.
@@leon.skennedy9931 I don't own that movie on 4K but do plan to buy it. I do own close Encounter of The Third Kind it bugged me at first but i got used to it i would rather have the noise than to lose Details if it's Film i want the noise but i do hate fake Digital noise it shouldn't be on Digital recording.
@@RKoen2006 cool man, be interested to hear your opinion on first Matrix 4k disc regarding grain :) it's a great transfer overall, sharp picture and good colours! I'm a fan of film and the detail in grain, Lord of the Rings needs more, Matrix needs less. Sweet spot somewhere in the middle where detail is retained, but grain not distracting :)
The scene with the flag was shot accidentally it wasn't meant to be Flying, but after they cought the scene decided to leave it since it gave deeper effect.
There Are so Many. Like Gandalf hitting his head in the Bagend and Aragorn kicking orc helmet in two towers.. in both cases actor did continue and it did stay in the film! Many Many more Little thing during the three films!
Original Predator had massive filmgrain and I think it got a couple bluray releases and one of them was so heavy with the noise reduction that it was like watching wax museum figurines instead of people. I'd be really interested in you checking out how the UHD bluray of it is.
The thing is. There's a massive amount of scenes that are not 100% in focus. And this is very well documented that happened. Is the fact that 2nd, and 3rd unit direction would be under extreme pressure to finish scenes. Then those scenes were sent over via satellite to Peter Jackson. But the control process was bad, since the technology and time to control such amount of scenes was simply not possible to do in such short period of time. No pixel peeping possible, sorta speak. So those scenes are indeed the cause of bad camera focus due to delivery time pressures. Andrew Lesnie would be at the helm of 1st camera along with Peter. But not commanding the other units.
Yeah this is really my only complaint. The HDR grades are tasteful and do not go into the realm of revisionism imo. But DNR stops the transfers from being as good as they could have been. Why is it still being used? Because the public hasn’t been educated about film grain. We had this problem with letterbox bars. Many studios continued to release pan & scan version of movies on DVD because most people were ignorant about aspect ratios and complained about the picture not taking up the entire screen. Today most people understand why the bars are necessary for 2.35/2.39:1 movies or anything shot in an AR wider than 1.77:1 (16:9) as well as bars on the sides for anything narrower. I see people complain about the picture on OLEDs because they blame their TVs for the grain! Another problem is that the average person has their TV on the Vivid or Standard presets which has the sharpness cranked way up in addition to edge enhancement and noise reduction which exacerbates the grain and makes it look worse.
I absolutely HATE it when someone invites me for a movie watch and I immediately notice motion smoothness cranked up to the max and VIVID colors. 'I need to max everything to get the best quality'
@@jeroenschaafsma138 yeah very similar to people inviting you to play a game e.g. Catan and they play by "house rules" completely decimating the fun of the person who is actually familiar with the proper rules
Great video! Another issue with the 4K is that the Atmos track is simply the same old DTS audio but with a noticeable bass cut. It's most apparent in the Balrog battle.
I honestly didn't see anything wrong, even in the parts where he said it looked terrible. A side by side comparson to what it should look like would have been in order.
With 4k, you can see more details than with 1080p. Whats the whole point of 4k releases, if those details getting killed by filters? Who the heck came to that brilliant idea?
@@Sif3r There’s nothing zealous about it, it’s about preserving the image in it’s purest and highest quality form. Besides, what’s wrong with people liking grain in an image?
@@provablegrub4581 grain isn't purity, its a deformity. Yes, they're zealous. They're like a religious cult. There's nothing wrong with liking it and I never said that either.
Why are they doing this? The whole point of us spending all this extra money for better picture quality is to GET better picture quality. Why adjust a scene in a way that clearly makes it worse? Just make the whole thing look good for god sake, it's not hard!!!!
I love what Peter and Weta did making these films here in NZ but for me these come second to actually reading Tolkien himself. Your imagination fed by the master of english, old, middle and modern will trump anything presented to you on a screen, especially apparently when it is smudged by this DNR technology. 📖
I watched the 4k Bluray in Dolby Vision on my OLED and agree. Great HDR, some bad dnr and what I interpret as some upscaling artefacts in certain scenes. Of the three films this one was the worst picture quality wise. Overall still a must have for LotR fans.
@@turrican4d599 The DNR is frustrating, but I think the color is much more accurate and better looking on the 4K discs. That's something that's inherent to every scene. The DNR waxiness comes and goes. Just my opinion.
@@turrican4d599 The sound mix and color correction is so much better on the 4K's that it basically made the blu-rays defunct. The DNR is really not that bad at all.
Thank you Vincent for another wonderful video! I am learning so much. Your review is an apt assessment. For the exhorbitant price the LOTR triology is selling for on 4K, is should be reference quality and it is not.
I reported this in my review also. I reported it also to many top reviewers, and I will not mention their names, and they didn't see the huge issues with this disc. I'm a purist also, and these discs are unacceptable in terms of video quality.
Too bad...excessive DNR ruined many scenes in the trilogy for me. Inconsistent is the first word that comes to mind. How can a movie look so good and so bad all at the same time??🤦♂️
@@Lastman10101 There are plenty of much older 4K restorations that look substantially better. Excessive DNR was a choice that has nothing to do with how old the movies are.
@@DoomSayerSantos oh yes... a few days ago I wanted to watch pirates of the caribbean (the first one) on Disney +... advertised as DolbyVision... it looks simply awful... They seemingly took the SDR material, wrote Dolby Vision onto it and added very few highlights... Day scenes just look so wrong (incredibly dull, the 'bright' blue sky in the caribbean looks kinda like slightly misty europe and so on...)
Peter Jackson mentioned that they tried to make the two trilogies have a similar aesthetic. Maybe that's the reason for the DNR since The Hobbit was shot digitally?
@Cryer24597 Because of film noise? Wow. If you ask almost anyone that didn't like the Hobbit movies, I am sure that is not even in their entire list of complaints, let alone at the top of it.
I have the Theatrical and Extended cuts on both Blu-Ray and 4k UHD Blu-Ray and all of the DNR issues you highlighted and detail loss is present in all releases, including the previous Blu-Rays (theatrical and Extended) from 10ish years ago. The issues must be on the master print that was used for the transfer, and is not a fault in the DNR process done for the 4k release. Two Towers is the only film that has these issues, and looking at comparisons of Fellowship and Return of the King, you actually gain detail (just check the comparisons on caps-o-holic if you don't believe me). So the master print is the issue, not the 2021 remaster.
I suspect this won't bother me too much as I generally dislike filmgrain to begin with.... However it is wrong to remove detail from the original image. Either way still looking forward to rewatching these in HDR on my CX. Finally got the blurays in the mail after a month of waiting on target to avoid paying scalper prices on Amazon...
Considering it’s quite rare to see another version(preferably a high def original film re-scan version) 4k release, it’s a letdown. Dnr use on 4k blu rays should be kept at minimum as there are a lot of video enthusiasts among the ones who buy 4k blu ray these days. Yes, this version is still very good, but a legendary series like LOTR need more attention to detail.
Dude most people buying 4k blu rays don't even know what DNR (digital noise reduction) is 😅 We are among a tiny niche group that wants our 4k blu rays to be faithful without any dnr and ee added. LOTR Trilogy 4k blu ray isn't very good. It didn't even have a 4k scan of the original film negative for the three films. It was a sloppy remastering by Peter Jackson!
@@C--A Thanks for a thoughtful reply, and I agree with most of your comments. The reason why I said enthusiasts should be respected more is that people don't buy blu rays these days. It's mostly streaming. So, compared to the past, the proportion of the niche consumers among the blu ray consumers has grown. Therefore, even though the enthusiasts are still a niche group, their voices should be heard a little more.
The running animation as they are exiting Moria. They are little figures running at 2 fps. SUPER WEIRD. I am sure the animation was the same in the normal movies but I never noticed it then.
That was always the case. Much of the digital/cgi was not great and stands out a ton more today. I remember discussing it with folks back in then when folks were talking about special effects houses with prequel/Lucasfilm vs LOTR/WETA .
HARD agree. I did my annual trilogy rewatch recently with the new 4K transfer. I love how the colors and brightness of the world has been accented but the lack of film grain bugged me from start to finish. I don't regret spending the money, but I might go back to my Blu-rays for subsequent viewings even if they have "worse" picture quality.
@couldn't think of a username This. Fact of the matter is, LOTR was shot on film. You’re never going to remove grain in post, without completely ruining the look of the movie by artificially smoothing over the image. If you want the look of digital, shoot digital. Trying to make a movie shot on film look digital is only going to give diminishing returns.
thats why we have 44rh1n and Dremastered edition, also u can easly take audio from 2020 version and merge it to 2010/2012 with a bit of work :) ive done it with recolor edition 2012 BR and im so happy with a resoults
I have to agree. Why reduce noise so aggressively when part of the charm of these movies is that they were shot on *film*. Also, is it plausible that three different teams worked on the three movie conversions, resulting in the differences between "Fellowship" and "Two Towers?" What will we see in "Return of the King?" Too much noise reduction, and all those battle scenes will turn into Smear-O-Vision™.
If I'm being honest, TLOTR trilogy was my most anticipated 4K release of 2020, and It took a downfall. Despite the DNR issues, it actually does have some great coloring from the HDR, and The Fellowship Of The Ring no longer has that green tint from the EE Blu Ray, so that's a bonus. And the Dolby Atmos sounds so incredible, which is usually the most important for me. So is the 4K version perfect? Definitely not. There were times that I thought they were 2K upscales because the DNR was really bad in the last two movies, but otherwise, they're not great, but not too bad either.
LOTR trilogy 4k blu ray is a 2k upscale. The same 2k digital intermediates that were used for the ancient blu rays years ago. Jackson never done a new 4k scan of the original film negatives for the 4k blu ray release.
I think the CGI was rendered in 1080p so it makes sense that they had to upscale it, but are you saying that even the filmed footage has upscaling look to it? I wonder why, that film should translate to 4k well. Unfortunately it may be that they didn't rescan the film, possibly because the CGI that was baked in
They should have allowed you to toggle off the DNR or release the "preserved" remaster in the full box set or something. Jackson wanted to force the LOTR trilogy to visually match the fully digital Hobbit trilogy, which was originally shot in 5k. But I think this was a mistake. Even older films presented in UHD and HDR look better, even with obvious film grain. Hell, that just adds to the intensity of the texture and detail. That's part of what I loved about watching the LOTR trilogy in the theater, how raw and tactile it looked, it almost felt like a documentary shot in Middle Earth. This was something I felt was missing from The Hobbit trilogy. I couldn't help but feel disappointment watching this new version besides the HDR, I didn't really see much benefit going from HD to UHD because of this. Then I'll pull up a film like Goodfellas or Lawrence of Arabia in HDR and just be blown away by the detail, even though they are older films. Those films actually look like UHD to me, which LOTR really pretty much looks entirely like upscaled HD film scans vs actual 4k scans (I'm aware the FX shots had to be upscaled, I mean all the footage, even the actual 4k shots).
I wish there was a way to add DNR as an after effect that would be on by default and people could just turn it off. You can use your TV but older screens don't have it and I totally get why people hate film grain. Use to be in that camp but not anymore.
A little bit of DNR is not such a bad thing. It can have the benefit of getting rid of chroma noise and other anomalies introduced by the scanning process. And when done right, it still leaves plenty of natural-looking grain in the picture. This is NOT one of those times. IMO, this is right up there with the Predator UHE and the T2 UHD in terms of how badly it destroys the picture. And it saddens me that this is what these movies will look like from here on out. So glad I hung onto my Blu-ray sets.
I love great video quality as well but I watched this on my CX77 and was blown away as was my family. Perfection is elusive and rare. Great videos. Keep being a purist. We learn a lot!
Great video Vincent - would love to see you compare some of these DNR UHD blu rays vs 1080p blu rays - sometimes the colour correction in UHD's are also far too pushed teal/orange etc as well.
the coloraturas retouching is also very inconsistent. hair colours change scene to scene etc... all the magic is sucked out and the blu ray (with correct colours) is still the benchmark on movie night for me
Question - i have a LG Oled C8 and when viewing LOTR in Dolby vision it looks much less vivid and clear compared to say the 4k hdr trailer by warner bros - wasn't sure why on the same tv input the clip with hdr looks better than dolby vision?
My ears are better than my eyes so I was happy to trade-off an atmos track for some bad DNR. Still don't understand why film grain needs to be removed completely from everything.
Its quite hard to see what you mean through the youtube compression even on my 65" display, for anyone not seeing what VT means, the best part to see it is when Legolas stops moving his face after turning to the king, it takes a second or two but then the detail reappears. Hope that helps, it will be hard to see on a small screen so definitely don't strain your eyes trying to see this on a phone.
Is it a 4k tv? If so, you're watching a blurry mess. This video is only available on 1080p max, so if you have a 4k tv, youtube compression combined with your tvs internal upscaling will ruin any 1080p signal you're watching.
I just watched the video on my 27" 1080p monitor and I could see the blurry image of the faces as they turn to talk. So not a 4K film to buy for my 65" sony oled. Shame, as I really like the films on blu ray.
Warner bros hope you read this: I believe Warner Bros. has missed the true potential for these LOTR remasters. I'm sure there's an overall improvement to the new remaster in some ways. Many are displeased with the changes of the original colors and filters which (as imperfect as the blue colors might've been) made some of the largest contributions to the visual aesthetic. However, there are obvious mistakes that transcend taste and artistic vision. These should seriously be fixed as LOTR is a true piece of film heritage/history. As far as the visuals go, Warner bros., consider fixing the following and the like: 1). Reduce or fine tune the scenes with noticeable DNR which gives a "wax-doll" appearance on people's faces and some of the cgi models. The effect goes in and out of being detailed and glossed over. ua-cam.com/video/ba1F0hyMvr4/v-deo.html 2). The overly accentuated sharp outlines. It doesn't work with many things like buildings and bodies. Even in motion it's too much. Tone it down where it's too obvious. ua-cam.com/video/ba1F0hyMvr4/v-deo.html 3). Black crushing. Yes it seems to be there. 4). Digital artifacts either appearing or disappearing like Gandalf's staff and Shadowfaxes ears. ua-cam.com/video/I3Z58uiwcME/v-deo.html 5). The prologue scene with Erebor. The color scheme is not as bright and colorful anymore. It's way too muted. Seeing the regal majesty of Erebor is a major incentive for the viewer to sit and watch the journey...but now it doesn't carry that awe-inspiring sensation as it did before. 6). The green screen effect in the ending of The Return of the King. The blue sky color is actually extrapolated too much compared to the original to make the background more visible. It also completely changed the light hazy and pleasant color. This actually pulls the audience out of being immersed by the scene appearing as if the actors are standing in front of a blue screen. ua-cam.com/video/LGNeKTf1_p4/v-deo.html 7. (This is my biggest gripe personally). Fix ALL FLASHBACK SCENES in the remasters, especially with Arwens visions. The drastic color REMOVAL changes the visceral emotions of the scene. ua-cam.com/video/I3Z58uiwcME/v-deo.html Warner Bros., there are many other issues being found on these remasters. It's in need of review, and in need of quality control because some scenes are frankly disappointing. But it's not too late to make this one of the greatest remasters of all time. We live in a time where it is possible to fix these for everyone. Modern video game companies do this all the time after making an official release and thereafter catching/ fixing errors or glitches. With the digital version of Blu-ray discs being made available for download there may be a door of opportunity for correcting the obvious errors. So please, kindly, review the remaster and fix the issues being pointed out.
I must be weird but I prefer older movies re released on 4K Blu Ray with DNR. Some of the first UHD movie discs were way too grainy and had a second release with DNR. I mean grain heavy 4k discs look worse on my 4K tv than watching the DVD or FHD Blu Ray version.
Peter Jackson; wings it again. Hey, who gives a shit about the Hobbit Trilogy? Ruining the LOTR to make it "fit" with the shittier series is dumb. Tolkiens two books had very different looks and feel so should the the movies
If you watch films on a HD projector, bad film transfers stand out quite easily. The LOTR trilogy is not one of them. In fact, it is one of the best series. These films offer the offer amazing depth, contrast, light, clarity add almost clinical detailed. Yes, some scenes are processed and slightly blemished, but overall, not much else compares.
a projector will never beat the sharpness quality of a 4k tv or 1080p tv, a projector uses a lens that can cause uneven focus or chromatic aberration that can affect image sharpness
I didn't realy mind the noise reduction, there are much worse errors in the two towers which are quit funny (maybe annoying to some). But for me I just laugh at it and keep enjoing the movie. I think the 4k master is realy good and I did enjoy a new viewing expirience. Sure i would have prefered Film grain. It woudl probably make the movies even more beautiful in 4K then the flatt digital version we got. It was Peter Jacksons vision, not much we can do about it.
I hate the color grading: 5:38 for example, why are the rocks teal? It seems like they've increased the saturation overall which in a NORDIC setting makes everything look tropical. In the northern hemisphere because the sun has more atmosphere to travel through and often more clouds to travel through everything becomes more blue/desaturated. You would never see teal on any rock in Norway for example, that's the kind of color you might expect on a rock in a jungle or a rock that's under water. Watching Frodo and Sam in that landscape, it could easily be some mountain in Brazil. 1:59 is another example of bad color grading, everyone knows that objects that are far in the distance becomes more desaturated. Yet those mountains are very blue, it's not an appealing blue either but a greenish blue. No doubt some HDR artifact. It looks unreal.
Does the regular extended blu ray edition have this same HDR implementation? I'd be fine with the 1080p bluray if it had the HDR youre speaking of in this video but without the upscaling maintaining the filmic originality.
Sadly, no. Those versions also have weird color settings that make the whole thing look overly green or blue, depending on the scene. So frustratingly, there is no "definitive version" of these films. You either have film grain but bad colors, or no film grain and ugly DNR but fantastic colors.
Even to my untrained eye, that noise reduction was pretty obvious when we watched them. I almost did a double take and checked that my LG Oled wasn’t upscaling a 1080p signal. Really odd thing to see on a 4K movie.
FFS.. Who exactly is asking for all this DNR/Digital-Grading/Edge Enhancement Bollox? It always seems to happen to films that are crying out for a faithful recreation of their original epic cinematic quality. This is yet another attempt to normalise failed digital imaging that made the Hobbit feel so unnatural by matching LOTR's look to it rather than the other way around. It's such a missed opportunity, to preserve the last great films that will ever be made.
The regular Blu-ray editions (and subsequent HD streams) of these movies had a MAJOR problem where the extended editions had completely different and incorrect-looking colour grading compared to the theatrical and DVD editions - something I have always assumed to be a mistake. I am assuming this is resolved this time around, meaning this is my only way of watching these movies in HD with the right picture (more or less), given I prefer the extended editions. Any observed differences between these versions? Also, does watching without HDR enabled basically give you a consistent picture with the old cuts?
There are no differences between the two theatrical and the extended cuts when it comes to the colour. The extended cuts look a little bit better, as they are less compressed (because they are spread across two discs). Watching it without HDR enabled, it still very different from the older cuts, because the HDR component is still there, it's just that the player is tonemapping it to SDR.
Would love you to do Game of Thrones 4K reviews. Since it’s a tv series it’s a bit different and could show Tv vs Movies for quality. But more importantly the first few seasons I’m sure are originally filmed in 1080p so you could show how perhaps content that wasn’t initially intended for the 4K format may Or may NOT have the advertised quality.
FYI the term is 2K, not 1080p. 1080p is 1920x1080p, 2K is 2048x1080p. It's the latter that is used for mastering movies (a standard Blu-Ray is downscaled from 2K to 1080p). A show/movie doesn't necessarily need to look back just because it's in 2K. It can look really good. However, the LotR trilogy, being an upscale, is really underwhelming and soft.
It was Jackson who made this choice -- Weta/Park Road Post Productions did this transfer. Jackson wanted the films to be visually consistent across the board.
Whoa, is this from the brand new release from last December that everyone is raving about? I just don’t understand how, the DNR is terrible. The fact that I can tell on my 6” phone at regular viewing distance is very telling. Very unfortunate, I’ll pass on this set.
Peter Jackson should be ashamed! Mots people these days are streaming their shwos and movies. We enthusiasts are the only ones buying physical media and he decided giving us this abomination!
I personally don't feel de HDR hype, I watch my movies in a dark room with low brightness settings. I prefer really good contrast and perfect blacks (all hail OLED) rather than unnecessary bright light thrown at my eyes. And yes, DNR sucks, however I prefer using it at 'low' just to get rid of the random junk pixels made by digital cameras, especially in dark scenes.
Did Peter Jackson get involved in the creation/mastering of this Blu-ray release. His recent work on "They Shall not Grow Old" attests to his commitment to getting the best results regardless of the source material. What happened here ??
Damn, now I just can't but see that DNR searing. Won't be buying this trilogy on 4K anytime soon. I hope they someday release the set without that DNR. In the meantime, my DVDs and Blu-rays will do fine.
The brightness seems too high. If Peter was releasing 3D versions of these this would make some sense.. the glasses would off-put this returning the hue or light tone.
They either did but then removed all the details with DNR, or they just used the available intermediate from the bluray releases, applying some color correction and mapping
What’s so bizarre is that Peter Jackson seemed to want this effect. He wanted to make it more in line with the appearance of the Hobbit, I think so that you can binge them all in one go and not be jarred by the change in style. Seems like that was a terrible idea. He should have kept it as true to the source as possible imo, but maybe we’ll get that in the future. I highly doubt it, it maybe. Still, this seems like the definitive way to watch, even with the DNR. Every other aspect of the film seems just so far ahead of previous releases. Cannot wait to buy it when the collectors edition comes out this summer!
The DVDs have low resolution, the Blurays have weird color corrections and the UHD have the DNR issue. For me the HDR, high resolution and Atmos soundtrack make the UHD by far the best version.
@@EricMalette He's saying that although the HDR is great, the DNR stops the blu ray from being a reference quality 4k disc. He's not saying that it's not reference quality in comparison with, say, the original blu ray.
@@DucksCourage Why are you making up answers for him? That's not what he said at all in the video. I'm asking him which version he considers to be reference. There are many versions of this film, and all of them are different.
@@EricMalette I'm not answering for him, I'm telling you what he said because you clearly don't understand. Listen carefully. He says it's not reference quality and doesn't showcase what an old film can look like. He's clearly taking about 4k discs overall, and NOT versions of LOTR.
Removing film grain makes me sad
I'm no purist, but even I find that noise reduction to be off-putting... Making details disappear like that, kinda makes 4k a little pointless.
@16bit Classics I'm a purist with a self trained eye and I would definitely notice it like Vincent. Of course, at 12 feet away and with less than ideal vision, I would probably not notice much detail at all except for the HDR nearly engulfing my sense of vision. Regardless, it is empirically true that the film contains DNR which is a double edged sword in reducing picture detail.
@First name Last name Unlikely. If that were true older movies would look bad as well. Play total recall 4k and you'll notice that's nonsense.
This looks worse than the Hobbit tbh.
@First name Last name What he said just proves this wasn't a remaster from the actual 35mm film, because that doesn't have CGI. They would have to re-do all of the CGI and would take several millions of dollar. They just A.I upscaled a 1080p or 2k copy.
@@jeroenschaafsma138because if the 2k digital fx. All the fx would have to been remastered and that would’ve been crazy expensive.
@@UnitedRedDevil13 Not an excuse at all and not how film works. You could easily print the 35mm film with the 2k VFX and still have look sharper because the film stock itself *the grain* becomes sharper.
The 4k version still look like shit and has less detail than the 1080 bluray, no matter which shot you compare. Every. single. shot. has its detail scrubbed away.
Thank you for discussing the evils of DNR/EE in this movie. It's also present in the other LOTR movies and the fake sharpening was even added to the Hobbit movies too. It's a shame because the HDR and sound quality is incredible.
I love seeing the texture of film, BlueRay is one of the few ways to get film's that can hold the quality needed to retain all the detail of the film texture.
one step forward with the HDR
two steps back with the blur filter
*Blu-ray
I definitely agree with you on this. The film grain is what gives cinema character
honestly the hdr, colour grading, sound and everything else is so good, its more like 4 steps foward, 1 step back
@@drewb.9497 sure it's not all bad but I just hope it's not something that will be trendy. They decided to make the older films shot on film match the newer films shot on digital & to do it they had to lose some of the visual quality of the film to remove the film grain.
When I first got some blu ray films I loved seeing all the texture that I had never seen before, the fine details that had always been lost on older mediums. So to see it removed is a saw spot for me.
I did photography at UNI, always loved hand printing film/prints. The texture of the film is important, you chose a film stock to match the project for colour, behaviour & grain. The grain adds contrast which gives the illusion of sharpness (and gives you something to focus with the Loupe when hand printing, when printing if the grain is sharp on the print but the image is soft you know you missed the focus on the shot and not the focus on the enlarger).
edit I also do understand that 99% of people will never know what has been changed or even care, it's not a change that relay effects the main enjoyment of the film. I understand it's more of a personal thing that i enjoy the texture of film so much, how it changes with stock and the softness and sharpness it can give & variety over time from classic films to more modern ones.
Sometimes film grain is horribly distracting. And in a fantasy movie, it has anachronistic implications too.
For me the DNR is really the killer. I find the Extended-Bluray to be the most organic way to watch the movies. HDR and color timing might be great on the 4k bluray but the DNR takes you out of the movie so many times. Look how Gollum looks digital on the 4k version.
Fellowship has the extremely green tint on EE BD, though. Best thing would be to make your own BD with non green normal BD and green tinted extnded scenes.
@@turrican4d599 Thats not a good solution. The normal BD (theatrical) has DNR all over it, weak contrasts and an overall softness. The Extended bluray is much sharper and has a punchier image.
Conclusion:
there is currently no bluray version of these movies that honors the quality of the movies
Bluray (Theatrical): soft, DRN, low contrast
Bluray (Extended): sharp, punchy but weird green tint
4k bluray: Sharp, DNR, digital look, but great color timing HDR
Pick your poison...
@@Prodrummer1603 how about dvd/dvd extended?
Honestly Gollam looks like crap period. Not real looking.The DNR has a few standout bad moments, but for the most part, the colour and resolution improvement are far better than the blu ray.
@@lxXSuddenDeathXxl DVD looks like VHS. 480p, no thanks.
you should do a top10 list of your most favorite/ recommended to buy HDR blurays. Many ppl would fall back to that once they get their hands on a good new TV^^
I've just walked past the house Ian McKellen was born in ⬅️👀
@@weredoingitinbabylon8452 Oh you JUST missed him, such a shame.
@@Dark_Jaguar he got in touch after he saw the video and thanked me. Nice chap 👍
I noticed that on King Theoden’s face but didn’t know what that was. Thanks for the info.
My 4K steelbook edition arrived today, I am very happy. I remember watching the first movie on VHS I borrowed from a friend on a very bad TV so I'm actually grateful we can nitpick like this and I look forward to watching the extended version in 4K :).
I find the experience of watching it every time it gets re-released very exciting haha, it’s like a ritual.
The DNR really stands out negatively throughout the trilogy. I was very disappointed. So much potential lost there. I absolutely love these movies and it would be such a great watching experience (LG C9) if it wasn't for the noise reduction.
It's unfortunate there isn't a "definitive" version. The 4K version is still worth it over the standard Blu-ray imo, because the color's are much better and the HDR looks great. But the DNR is really unfortunate, though isn't always as blatant as the scene he used to showcase it.
I got a CX.
This is not DNR, this is an upscaled movie. they used davinci resolve which has a function called superscale in sharp mode. I find it strange that Warner being a large studio they have not used another better method, Topaz gigapixel does a better job.
@@Burgergio 😂👍🏻
@@jerchongkong5387 I think it's mostly DNR because the difference between upscaling isn't that huge 🤔.
EDIT: though it depends on how much motion blur there was in the original material.
I said the same about the DNR in my video review. Hopefully people see the light now. Thanks Vincent!
Thanks for spotting it first, Elliot. Watching your clip just after they were released avoided an expensive mistake for me. I love my extended edition blu-rays; "my precious" they are 😂
Yeah, i couldn't cancel my preorder after watching that video, but was able to sell the set unopened on ebay, it even sold for more than I paid for it, so the ebay tax was covered. Got the itunes 4K versions instead for 3,99 each, at least the HDR is ok, and there are apparently very few details to begin with, so the higher compression is not a big issue.
@@HNedel There is a version on itunes of lotr? it's 4k hdr too?
@@ThereisNOpandemicWAKEUP yeah, it is 4k Dolby Vision. I actually bought the first two parts in HD in anticipation of the upgrade to 4k, since i wasn't sure for how long the 3,99 price will stay, so it was a small gamble, but worked out fine.
@@HNedel Really? So how does it stack up compared to this release? It's a shame because dolby vision is not watchable on windows :(. I didn't see any pirate rip either.
Thank you for all the work on this channel.
Thank you for your comments on this channel.
@@vlcheish Thank you for your replies to his comments on this channel.
I'm loving the youtube compression artifacts.
As someone who plans to work with hdr content in the future these videos are very informative and educational. I loved when you pointed out colors outside the 709 range. Thanks for the work you do as a hdr evengelist!
DNR should never be used on movies that where shot on film ! change my mind.
As this seems to not be a proper 4K restoration but an upscale then yes, they probably shouldn't have used it but sometimes when going from film to 4K, film grain is pronounced so much that some DNR is useful and beneficial. Case by case basis and less is more type of thing.
@@AdamH7 I would rather have the noise i dislike Noise reduction leave it in if people don't like it only buy digital recording.
Check out the Matrix 4k disc, grain so bad in some shots you can eat it with a spoon!
@@leon.skennedy9931 I don't own that movie on 4K but do plan to buy it. I do own close Encounter of The Third Kind it bugged me at first but i got used to it i would rather have the noise than to lose Details if it's Film i want the noise but i do hate fake Digital noise it shouldn't be on Digital recording.
@@RKoen2006 cool man, be interested to hear your opinion on first Matrix 4k disc regarding grain :) it's a great transfer overall, sharp picture and good colours! I'm a fan of film and the detail in grain, Lord of the Rings needs more, Matrix needs less. Sweet spot somewhere in the middle where detail is retained, but grain not distracting :)
The scene with the flag was shot accidentally it wasn't meant to be Flying, but after they cought the scene decided to leave it since it gave deeper effect.
That's pretty cool. Good acting on her part then!
There Are so Many. Like Gandalf hitting his head in the Bagend and Aragorn kicking orc helmet in two towers.. in both cases actor did continue and it did stay in the film! Many Many more Little thing during the three films!
That's not true, that's a hoax. Of course, this scene was intended, just the way the flag is flying and falling down was luck.
@@SolarstromAG need to do some research before comenting mate, that has been confirmed from the producers.
@@haukionkannel That's cool, these are great actors after all.
Original Predator had massive filmgrain and I think it got a couple bluray releases and one of them was so heavy with the noise reduction that it was like watching wax museum figurines instead of people. I'd be really interested in you checking out how the UHD bluray of it is.
I was one of those unfortunate schmucks who bought the waxy Predator Blu-ray. Carl and Arnold look like badly photoshopped figures in it.
UHD Predator was done very well. Made up for Dnr Blu-ray version, Ultimate version, wax people
@@Trojan0304 Yup
Yes, but 4K Predator looks amazing. Film grain is still there. Tons of it. It's a crazy grainy movie. But it was like that since 1987.
I'm happy with my BR EE-Trilogy... The boxset as well as the bluray-menu are way prettier and way more noble as with the 4K Blurays
BR has the worst color grading ever. Horrible. "4K" color grading is superior to any other version.
@@stevemuzak8526 Disagreed. The colour grading is incredibly bad.
1:44 "Eowyn looks thicc!" Vincent Theo 2021
The thing is. There's a massive amount of scenes that are not 100% in focus. And this is very well documented that happened. Is the fact that 2nd, and 3rd unit direction would be under extreme pressure to finish scenes. Then those scenes were sent over via satellite to Peter Jackson. But the control process was bad, since the technology and time to control such amount of scenes was simply not possible to do in such short period of time. No pixel peeping possible, sorta speak. So those scenes are indeed the cause of bad camera focus due to delivery time pressures. Andrew Lesnie would be at the helm of 1st camera along with Peter. But not commanding the other units.
Yeah this is really my only complaint. The HDR grades are tasteful and do not go into the realm of revisionism imo.
But DNR stops the transfers from being as good as they could have been. Why is it still being used? Because the public hasn’t been educated about film grain.
We had this problem with letterbox bars. Many studios continued to release pan & scan version of movies on DVD because most people were ignorant about aspect ratios and complained about the picture not taking up the entire screen.
Today most people understand why the bars are necessary for 2.35/2.39:1 movies or anything shot in an AR wider than 1.77:1 (16:9) as well as bars on the sides for anything narrower.
I see people complain about the picture on OLEDs because they blame their TVs for the grain! Another problem is that the average person has their TV on the Vivid or Standard presets which has the sharpness cranked way up in addition to edge enhancement and noise reduction which exacerbates the grain and makes it look worse.
I absolutely HATE it when someone invites me for a movie watch and I immediately notice motion smoothness cranked up to the max and VIVID colors.
'I need to max everything to get the best quality'
@@jeroenschaafsma138 yeah very similar to people inviting you to play a game e.g. Catan and they play by "house rules" completely decimating the fun of the person who is actually familiar with the proper rules
@@folx2733I can abide a little bending of the rules, a little motion smoothing sure I'll stay still.
Crank it to the max and I'll open my mouth lol
Great video! Another issue with the 4K is that the Atmos track is simply the same old DTS audio but with a noticeable bass cut. It's most apparent in the Balrog battle.
I honestly didn't see anything wrong, even in the parts where he said it looked terrible. A side by side comparson to what it should look like would have been in order.
that's because you're not cursed with a critical eye for detail, and in this case that's a good thing
Might have a lot to do with the screen you are watching this video on and the quality you are streaming at.
With 4k, you can see more details than with 1080p. Whats the whole point of 4k releases, if those details getting killed by filters? Who the heck came to that brilliant idea?
I’m still happy with all of the 4k versions. My favorite movie trilogy of all time!!
I watch the Blu-ray discs instead: film grain intact.
@@turrican4d599 Have fun with your bad color correction and non-atmos mix.
The way people worship film grain makes me worried about humanity in general. It's disturbing how zealous these people are 😂
@@Sif3r There’s nothing zealous about it, it’s about preserving the image in it’s purest and highest quality form. Besides, what’s wrong with people liking grain in an image?
@@provablegrub4581 grain isn't purity, its a deformity. Yes, they're zealous. They're like a religious cult.
There's nothing wrong with liking it and I never said that either.
Why are they doing this? The whole point of us spending all this extra money for better picture quality is to GET better picture quality. Why adjust a scene in a way that clearly makes it worse? Just make the whole thing look good for god sake, it's not hard!!!!
I noticed the DNR but I'm fine with it, the HDR is so good that it really supersedes the DNR issue for me.
Exactly, this is genuinely the best use of HDR I’ve ever seen.
I think the HDR is horrible, I liked the DVD better.
I love what Peter and Weta did making these films here in NZ but for me these come second to actually reading Tolkien himself. Your imagination fed by the master of english, old, middle and modern will trump anything presented to you on a screen, especially apparently when it is smudged by this DNR technology. 📖
I watched the 4k Bluray in Dolby Vision on my OLED and agree. Great HDR, some bad dnr and what I interpret as some upscaling artefacts in certain scenes. Of the three films this one was the worst picture quality wise. Overall still a must have for LotR fans.
I would rather watch the Blu-ray discs. Fellowship non EE of course.
@@turrican4d599 The DNR is frustrating, but I think the color is much more accurate and better looking on the 4K discs. That's something that's inherent to every scene. The DNR waxiness comes and goes. Just my opinion.
@@turrican4d599 The sound mix and color correction is so much better on the 4K's that it basically made the blu-rays defunct. The DNR is really not that bad at all.
Sometimes too much detail can pull you out of the immersion and sometimes it can draw you in. It's a doubled edged sword.
Thank you Vincent for another wonderful video! I am learning so much. Your review is an apt assessment. For the exhorbitant price the LOTR triology is selling for on 4K, is should be reference quality and it is not.
I think it's great. 9 discs with good HDR and Dolby Atmos in one package.
It looks absolutely stunning on my tv so I don't care what anyone says.
lol same
Same here, the trilogy looks fantastic.
Gollum now looks really fake in a few shots. But somehow more real in most other shorts lol other than that though, these 4ks looks staggering
I reported this in my review also. I reported it also to many top reviewers, and I will not mention their names, and they didn't see the huge issues with this disc. I'm a purist also, and these discs are unacceptable in terms of video quality.
Thank you so much for your endless hard work!
Too bad...excessive DNR ruined many scenes in the trilogy for me. Inconsistent is the first word that comes to mind. How can a movie look so good and so bad all at the same time??🤦♂️
Re release the discs
It’s really old smh
@@Lastman10101 There are plenty of much older 4K restorations that look substantially better. Excessive DNR was a choice that has nothing to do with how old the movies are.
This movie is a upscaled from 2k sourse, is a shame.
@@Lastman10101 it's really not that old but the early DI process was rubbish and some of their choices made it even worse. So in a way, it's old.
The great HDR in LOTR puts all the last Star Wars movies to shame.
Disney doesn't like HDR.
@@DoomSayerSantos oh yes... a few days ago I wanted to watch pirates of the caribbean (the first one) on Disney +... advertised as DolbyVision... it looks simply awful... They seemingly took the SDR material, wrote Dolby Vision onto it and added very few highlights... Day scenes just look so wrong (incredibly dull, the 'bright' blue sky in the caribbean looks kinda like slightly misty europe and so on...)
British 008, ok but still all LOTR 4K unlike HOBBIT TRILOGY are only 2K DI what .... Scandal shame on WARNER + PJ (supervising)
Harry Potter has a dark HDR too. but people love to hate anything released by Disney this day.
The new color-grading and DNR in Lord of the Rings ruins it, though.
Peter Jackson mentioned that they tried to make the two trilogies have a similar aesthetic. Maybe that's the reason for the DNR since The Hobbit was shot digitally?
YeH he did say that and I think your right
He should have just added digital grain to The Hobbit. The LOTR films look great, the Hobbit trilogy is the one that feels out of place.
@Cryer24597 Because of film noise? Wow. If you ask almost anyone that didn't like the Hobbit movies, I am sure that is not even in their entire list of complaints, let alone at the top of it.
I have the Theatrical and Extended cuts on both Blu-Ray and 4k UHD Blu-Ray and all of the DNR issues you highlighted and detail loss is present in all releases, including the previous Blu-Rays (theatrical and Extended) from 10ish years ago. The issues must be on the master print that was used for the transfer, and is not a fault in the DNR process done for the 4k release. Two Towers is the only film that has these issues, and looking at comparisons of Fellowship and Return of the King, you actually gain detail (just check the comparisons on caps-o-holic if you don't believe me). So the master print is the issue, not the 2021 remaster.
thx for the info!
is it this review you talk about?
ua-cam.com/video/I3Z58uiwcME/v-deo.html&ab_channel=BoutiqueBlu-rayswithElliotCoen
I suspect this won't bother me too much as I generally dislike filmgrain to begin with.... However it is wrong to remove detail from the original image. Either way still looking forward to rewatching these in HDR on my CX. Finally got the blurays in the mail after a month of waiting on target to avoid paying scalper prices on Amazon...
Considering it’s quite rare to see another version(preferably a high def original film re-scan version) 4k release, it’s a letdown. Dnr use on 4k blu rays should be kept at minimum as there are a lot of video enthusiasts among the ones who buy 4k blu ray these days. Yes, this version is still very good, but a legendary series like LOTR need more attention to detail.
Dude most people buying 4k blu rays don't even know what DNR (digital noise reduction) is 😅
We are among a tiny niche group that wants our 4k blu rays to be faithful without any dnr and ee added.
LOTR Trilogy 4k blu ray isn't very good. It didn't even have a 4k scan of the original film negative for the three films. It was a sloppy remastering by Peter Jackson!
@@C--A Thanks for a thoughtful reply, and I agree with most of your comments. The reason why I said enthusiasts should be respected more is that people don't buy blu rays these days. It's mostly streaming. So, compared to the past, the proportion of the niche consumers among the blu ray consumers has grown. Therefore, even though the enthusiasts are still a niche group, their voices should be heard a little more.
Thank you for this. Keep up the great work!
The running animation as they are exiting Moria. They are little figures running at 2 fps. SUPER WEIRD. I am sure the animation was the same in the normal movies but I never noticed it then.
That was always the case. Much of the digital/cgi was not great and stands out a ton more today. I remember discussing it with folks back in then when folks were talking about special effects houses with prequel/Lucasfilm vs LOTR/WETA .
Always excited when I see that HDTVTest logo in HDR
HARD agree. I did my annual trilogy rewatch recently with the new 4K transfer. I love how the colors and brightness of the world has been accented but the lack of film grain bugged me from start to finish. I don't regret spending the money, but I might go back to my Blu-rays for subsequent viewings even if they have "worse" picture quality.
I haven't seen it yet on 4K, did you say it doesn't have any film grain? Because if it doesn't you just made my day! I hate film grain in movies!
@couldn't think of a username This. Fact of the matter is, LOTR was shot on film. You’re never going to remove grain in post, without completely ruining the look of the movie by artificially smoothing over the image. If you want the look of digital, shoot digital. Trying to make a movie shot on film look digital is only going to give diminishing returns.
@@trancepower1205 Then you don't know your facts. Film grain gives texture to people and objects in the movie. Without it, it looks like garbage.
thats why we have 44rh1n and Dremastered edition, also u can easly take audio from 2020 version and merge it to 2010/2012 with a bit of work :) ive done it with recolor edition 2012 BR and im so happy with a resoults
I have to agree. Why reduce noise so aggressively when part of the charm of these movies is that they were shot on *film*. Also, is it plausible that three different teams worked on the three movie conversions, resulting in the differences between "Fellowship" and "Two Towers?" What will we see in "Return of the King?" Too much noise reduction, and all those battle scenes will turn into Smear-O-Vision™.
Great work! Thanks a lot! Any chance for a reference Dolby Vision native 4K disk review? :)
If I'm being honest, TLOTR trilogy was my most anticipated 4K release of 2020, and It took a downfall. Despite the DNR issues, it actually does have some great coloring from the HDR, and The Fellowship Of The Ring no longer has that green tint from the EE Blu Ray, so that's a bonus. And the Dolby Atmos sounds so incredible, which is usually the most important for me. So is the 4K version perfect? Definitely not. There were times that I thought they were 2K upscales because the DNR was really bad in the last two movies, but otherwise, they're not great, but not too bad either.
LOTR trilogy 4k blu ray is a 2k upscale. The same 2k digital intermediates that were used for the ancient blu rays years ago.
Jackson never done a new 4k scan of the original film negatives for the 4k blu ray release.
@@C--A false
Color Restoration by 44rh1n has the best colors, as on DVD.
I think the CGI was rendered in 1080p so it makes sense that they had to upscale it, but are you saying that even the filmed footage has upscaling look to it? I wonder why, that film should translate to 4k well. Unfortunately it may be that they didn't rescan the film, possibly because the CGI that was baked in
They should have allowed you to toggle off the DNR or release the "preserved" remaster in the full box set or something. Jackson wanted to force the LOTR trilogy to visually match the fully digital Hobbit trilogy, which was originally shot in 5k. But I think this was a mistake. Even older films presented in UHD and HDR look better, even with obvious film grain. Hell, that just adds to the intensity of the texture and detail. That's part of what I loved about watching the LOTR trilogy in the theater, how raw and tactile it looked, it almost felt like a documentary shot in Middle Earth. This was something I felt was missing from The Hobbit trilogy. I couldn't help but feel disappointment watching this new version besides the HDR, I didn't really see much benefit going from HD to UHD because of this. Then I'll pull up a film like Goodfellas or Lawrence of Arabia in HDR and just be blown away by the detail, even though they are older films. Those films actually look like UHD to me, which LOTR really pretty much looks entirely like upscaled HD film scans vs actual 4k scans (I'm aware the FX shots had to be upscaled, I mean all the footage, even the actual 4k shots).
I wish there was a way to add DNR as an after effect that would be on by default and people could just turn it off. You can use your TV but older screens don't have it and I totally get why people hate film grain. Use to be in that camp but not anymore.
So what's the definite version of these movies then?
I have mixed feelings about LOTR on 4K ,was expecting something better tbh. BLADE on the other hand is a fantastic 4K release.
How does the Blu Ray compare to 4K streaming on Apple TV for example?
A little bit of DNR is not such a bad thing. It can have the benefit of getting rid of chroma noise and other anomalies introduced by the scanning process. And when done right, it still leaves plenty of natural-looking grain in the picture. This is NOT one of those times. IMO, this is right up there with the Predator UHE and the T2 UHD in terms of how badly it destroys the picture. And it saddens me that this is what these movies will look like from here on out. So glad I hung onto my Blu-ray sets.
I love great video quality as well but I watched this on my CX77 and was blown away as was my family. Perfection is elusive and rare. Great videos. Keep being a purist. We learn a lot!
Great video Vincent - would love to see you compare some of these DNR UHD blu rays vs 1080p blu rays - sometimes the colour correction in UHD's are also far too pushed teal/orange etc as well.
the coloraturas retouching is also very inconsistent. hair colours change scene to scene etc... all the magic is sucked out and the blu ray (with correct colours) is still the benchmark on movie night for me
That shot of Legolas looked wonky even on 35mm prints in 2002. No excuse for the DNR in the 4K discs, but still, that shot has always looked that way.
Soo, is the blu ray a better buy? Or should I get the 4K editions?
Yes
@@metalliholic lol funny but not helpful at all
@@roberth8254 dude I was up for hours last night trying to find out which one to buy
Great job, Vincent 🎥
Thank you so much for doing these! I look forward to Return of the King.
Question - i have a LG Oled C8 and when viewing LOTR in Dolby vision it looks much less vivid and clear compared to say the 4k hdr trailer by warner bros - wasn't sure why on the same tv input the clip with hdr looks better than dolby vision?
My ears are better than my eyes so I was happy to trade-off an atmos track for some bad DNR. Still don't understand why film grain needs to be removed completely from everything.
Its quite hard to see what you mean through the youtube compression even on my 65" display, for anyone not seeing what VT means, the best part to see it is when Legolas stops moving his face after turning to the king, it takes a second or two but then the detail reappears. Hope that helps, it will be hard to see on a small screen so definitely don't strain your eyes trying to see this on a phone.
Is it a 4k tv? If so, you're watching a blurry mess. This video is only available on 1080p max, so if you have a 4k tv, youtube compression combined with your tvs internal upscaling will ruin any 1080p signal you're watching.
It's really obvious on my 55" CX. Was the HD version maybe not available when you watched?
I just watched the video on my 27" 1080p monitor and I could see the blurry image of the faces as they turn to talk. So not a 4K film to buy for my 65" sony oled. Shame, as I really like the films on blu ray.
@@pwd1134 It's pretty obvious. I was like where is the detail in this 4K film and then he stops moving and all the details show up.
Warner bros hope you read this:
I believe Warner Bros. has missed the true potential for these LOTR remasters. I'm sure there's an overall improvement to the new remaster in some ways. Many are displeased with the changes of the original colors and filters which (as imperfect as the blue colors might've been) made some of the largest contributions to the visual aesthetic. However, there are obvious mistakes that transcend taste and artistic vision. These should seriously be fixed as LOTR is a true piece of film heritage/history.
As far as the visuals go, Warner bros., consider fixing the following and the like:
1). Reduce or fine tune the scenes with noticeable DNR which gives a "wax-doll" appearance on people's faces and some of the cgi models. The effect goes in and out of being detailed and glossed over.
ua-cam.com/video/ba1F0hyMvr4/v-deo.html
2). The overly accentuated sharp outlines. It doesn't work with many things like buildings and bodies. Even in motion it's too much. Tone it down where it's too obvious.
ua-cam.com/video/ba1F0hyMvr4/v-deo.html
3). Black crushing. Yes it seems to be there.
4). Digital artifacts either appearing or disappearing like Gandalf's staff and Shadowfaxes ears.
ua-cam.com/video/I3Z58uiwcME/v-deo.html
5). The prologue scene with Erebor. The color scheme is not as bright and colorful anymore. It's way too muted. Seeing the regal majesty of Erebor is a major incentive for the viewer to sit and watch the journey...but now it doesn't carry that awe-inspiring sensation as it did before.
6). The green screen effect in the ending of The Return of the King. The blue sky color is actually extrapolated too much compared to the original to make the background more visible. It also completely changed the light hazy and pleasant color. This actually pulls the audience out of being immersed by the scene appearing as if the actors are standing in front of a blue screen. ua-cam.com/video/LGNeKTf1_p4/v-deo.html
7. (This is my biggest gripe personally). Fix ALL FLASHBACK SCENES in the remasters, especially with Arwens visions. The drastic color REMOVAL changes the visceral emotions of the scene. ua-cam.com/video/I3Z58uiwcME/v-deo.html
Warner Bros., there are many other issues being found on these remasters. It's in need of review, and in need of quality control because some scenes are frankly disappointing. But it's not too late to make this one of the greatest remasters of all time. We live in a time where it is possible to fix these for everyone. Modern video game companies do this all the time after making an official release and thereafter catching/ fixing errors or glitches. With the digital version of Blu-ray discs being made available for download there may be a door of opportunity for correcting the obvious errors. So please, kindly, review the remaster and fix the issues being pointed out.
I agree
I must be weird but I prefer older movies re released on 4K Blu Ray with DNR. Some of the first UHD movie discs were way too grainy and had a second release with DNR. I mean grain heavy 4k discs look worse on my 4K tv than watching the DVD or FHD Blu Ray version.
Peter Jackson; wings it again. Hey, who gives a shit about the Hobbit Trilogy? Ruining the LOTR to make it "fit" with the shittier series is dumb. Tolkiens two books had very different looks and feel so should the the movies
If you watch films on a HD projector, bad film transfers stand out quite easily. The LOTR trilogy is not one of them. In fact, it is one of the best series. These films offer the offer amazing depth, contrast, light, clarity add almost clinical detailed. Yes, some scenes are processed and slightly blemished, but overall, not much else compares.
a projector will never beat the sharpness quality of a 4k tv or 1080p tv, a projector uses a lens that can cause uneven focus or chromatic aberration that can affect image sharpness
I didn't realy mind the noise reduction, there are much worse errors in the two towers which are quit funny (maybe annoying to some). But for me I just laugh at it and keep enjoing the movie. I think the 4k master is realy good and I did enjoy a new viewing expirience. Sure i would have prefered Film grain. It woudl probably make the movies even more beautiful in 4K then the flatt digital version we got. It was Peter Jacksons vision, not much we can do about it.
I hate the color grading:
5:38 for example, why are the rocks teal? It seems like they've increased the saturation overall which in a NORDIC setting makes everything look tropical. In the northern hemisphere because the sun has more atmosphere to travel through and often more clouds to travel through everything becomes more blue/desaturated. You would never see teal on any rock in Norway for example, that's the kind of color you might expect on a rock in a jungle or a rock that's under water. Watching Frodo and Sam in that landscape, it could easily be some mountain in Brazil.
1:59 is another example of bad color grading, everyone knows that objects that are far in the distance becomes more desaturated. Yet those mountains are very blue, it's not an appealing blue either but a greenish blue. No doubt some HDR artifact. It looks unreal.
Does the regular extended blu ray edition have this same HDR implementation? I'd be fine with the 1080p bluray if it had the HDR youre speaking of in this video but without the upscaling maintaining the filmic originality.
Sadly, no. Those versions also have weird color settings that make the whole thing look overly green or blue, depending on the scene. So frustratingly, there is no "definitive version" of these films. You either have film grain but bad colors, or no film grain and ugly DNR but fantastic colors.
@@kaptenteo yes it's really sad but I don't mind the DNR if the HDR colors are great (and they seemingly are).
Even to my untrained eye, that noise reduction was pretty obvious when we watched them. I almost did a double take and checked that my LG Oled wasn’t upscaling a 1080p signal. Really odd thing to see on a 4K movie.
I watch the extended trilogy at least once every year.
Despite some faults, there is no way I could go back to the prior version.
Same, I popped in the Blu-ray once more and the grain was just overwhelming. I don’t really get why it would be preferable.
@@Puma5 Not really, the 4K version is an utter wax.
I love film grain, why remove it ?
Because i hate it :)
FFS.. Who exactly is asking for all this DNR/Digital-Grading/Edge Enhancement Bollox?
It always seems to happen to films that are crying out for a faithful recreation of their original epic cinematic quality.
This is yet another attempt to normalise failed digital imaging that made the Hobbit feel so unnatural by matching LOTR's look to it rather than the other way around.
It's such a missed opportunity, to preserve the last great films that will ever be made.
Me !
@@yoyoman87110 Visiting hours are over I'm afraid
Me watching in 360p:
*mhm yes I see*
I preordered those anyway, but nice to see the glory again on UA-cam, that I already saw C:
The regular Blu-ray editions (and subsequent HD streams) of these movies had a MAJOR problem where the extended editions had completely different and incorrect-looking colour grading compared to the theatrical and DVD editions - something I have always assumed to be a mistake.
I am assuming this is resolved this time around, meaning this is my only way of watching these movies in HD with the right picture (more or less), given I prefer the extended editions.
Any observed differences between these versions? Also, does watching without HDR enabled basically give you a consistent picture with the old cuts?
There are no differences between the two theatrical and the extended cuts when it comes to the colour. The extended cuts look a little bit better, as they are less compressed (because they are spread across two discs).
Watching it without HDR enabled, it still very different from the older cuts, because the HDR component is still there, it's just that the player is tonemapping it to SDR.
HDR at Helm's Deep looks divine.
Would love you to do Game of Thrones 4K reviews. Since it’s a tv series it’s a bit different and could show Tv vs Movies for quality. But more importantly the first few seasons I’m sure are originally filmed in 1080p so you could show how perhaps content that wasn’t initially intended for the 4K format may Or may NOT have the advertised quality.
FYI the term is 2K, not 1080p.
1080p is 1920x1080p, 2K is 2048x1080p. It's the latter that is used for mastering movies (a standard Blu-Ray is downscaled from 2K to 1080p).
A show/movie doesn't necessarily need to look back just because it's in 2K. It can look really good. However, the LotR trilogy, being an upscale, is really underwhelming and soft.
I got GoT in 4K, it's incredible.
Grains make the details on film no matter how good dnr you use it will always destroy details and the temporal one used here is terrible
vincent, can you recommend a good HDR10+ movie bluray?
Been a few years since I watched these. I own the trilogy on BD and I think I’ll re-watch them as I await the arrival of these on UHD disc.
Warner Bros messes up again
It was Jackson who made this choice -- Weta/Park Road Post Productions did this transfer. Jackson wanted the films to be visually consistent across the board.
Whoa, is this from the brand new release from last December that everyone is raving about? I just don’t understand how, the DNR is terrible. The fact that I can tell on my 6” phone at regular viewing distance is very telling. Very unfortunate, I’ll pass on this set.
Peter Jackson should be ashamed! Mots people these days are streaming their shwos and movies. We enthusiasts are the only ones buying physical media and he decided giving us this abomination!
I personally don't feel de HDR hype, I watch my movies in a dark room with low brightness settings. I prefer really good contrast and perfect blacks (all hail OLED) rather than unnecessary bright light thrown at my eyes. And yes, DNR sucks, however I prefer using it at 'low' just to get rid of the random junk pixels made by digital cameras, especially in dark scenes.
Did Peter Jackson get involved in the creation/mastering of this Blu-ray release. His recent work on "They Shall not Grow Old" attests to his commitment to getting the best results regardless of the source material. What happened here ??
Too Little time...
I love these videos!
Damn, now I just can't but see that DNR searing. Won't be buying this trilogy on 4K anytime soon. I hope they someday release the set without that DNR. In the meantime, my DVDs and Blu-rays will do fine.
The 4K still looks better than the Blu-Ray
Marginally better.
I would like i video explaining in detail the colour gamut setting and the contrast control. For what content do you use each.
I did purchase the steel book version, and I too noticed that something wasn’t right, but I thought I was just nit picking or something.
I’m watching the vhs versions. It’s fine but the audio quality isn’t great.
Thanks for the informative video! looking forward to part 3.
The brightness seems too high. If Peter was releasing 3D versions of these this would make some sense.. the glasses would off-put this returning the hue or light tone.
So did they not go to the negative and just restore the movie?
They either did but then removed all the details with DNR, or they just used the available intermediate from the bluray releases, applying some color correction and mapping
Can the DNR be destroyed by any craft that we here possess? That is to say is there a way to defeat it through TV, 4K player, or receiver?
Is this excessive noise reduction present specifically in the 4K Blu-ray release, or in previous Blu-ray releases as well?
I am 99% sure it's only with the 4k versions
What’s so bizarre is that Peter Jackson seemed to want this effect. He wanted to make it more in line with the appearance of the Hobbit, I think so that you can binge them all in one go and not be jarred by the change in style. Seems like that was a terrible idea. He should have kept it as true to the source as possible imo, but maybe we’ll get that in the future. I highly doubt it, it maybe. Still, this seems like the definitive way to watch, even with the DNR. Every other aspect of the film seems just so far ahead of previous releases. Cannot wait to buy it when the collectors edition comes out this summer!
So which version do the purists pick? DVD? I don't own any of them yet.
The DVDs have low resolution, the Blurays have weird color corrections and the UHD have the DNR issue. For me the HDR, high resolution and Atmos soundtrack make the UHD by far the best version.
What blu ray would you consider reference for The Two Towers then?
He's saying it's not as good as it could be, not that there's a better version
@@DucksCourage He's saying it's not reference. That's saying a lot.
@@EricMalette He's saying that although the HDR is great, the DNR stops the blu ray from being a reference quality 4k disc. He's not saying that it's not reference quality in comparison with, say, the original blu ray.
@@DucksCourage Why are you making up answers for him? That's not what he said at all in the video. I'm asking him which version he considers to be reference. There are many versions of this film, and all of them are different.
@@EricMalette I'm not answering for him, I'm telling you what he said because you clearly don't understand.
Listen carefully. He says it's not reference quality and doesn't showcase what an old film can look like. He's clearly taking about 4k discs overall, and NOT versions of LOTR.