In the Painter decks, you’ll notice that they run a bunch of anti-blue hate cards in the maindeck, like Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast. Not only do they provide some protection against counterspells, but if you name blue with Painter’s Servant, you can use them to destroy problematic permanents, even lands.
Even though Rogues typically don't/didn't win by milling anyone out, the threat of it happening was actually quite relevant in many matchups. The deck uses mill as a tool to pressure the opponent and to me this kind of usage is more true to the mechanic than mill control or combo. So good job including it here.
idk man i thought it was a stupid mechanic... rogues are a tribal deck. tribal decks win through going face with dudes, pumped up by lords. Mill does not help going face.
Maddening Cacophony is also rotating out, as is Ruin Crab. So the deck is basically dead on rotation unless they print a couple of new Mill spells in Dominaria United onward. :P Eh, mistakes happen.
A topic near and dear to my heart as a "Magic Boomer" with a Tasha avatar to go with my Hideous Laughter deck. Had a lot more success with discard strategies back in the day tho. Dark ritual into hypnotic spectre was so gnarly in my high school Geometry class at lunchtime meta.
Seeing undead alchemist for the first time was what got me actually in to Magic. I’d had a starter deck and bought a couple boosters for Innistrad and Return to Ravnica. Scrolling through a catalogue of the cards from Innistrad to see what kind of stuff there was to get I saw it and immediately wanted a full set to make a deck for. 10(?) years later I’m still adding new things to the deck and even made a weird commander build around getting it out early as possible. Super fun just amassing a zombie army and killing someone without actually dealing any damage
The current standard Izzet Mill deck is absolutely dead after rotation, all the mill components (Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Maddening Cacophony and Ruin Crab) are rotating
My U/W Milldeck was pretty close to the 1996 deck. Notable differences I had 4 howling mines. no factories/creatures, but 4x Ashnod Transmogrant and 4xDivine offering.
Mill decks ‘are the reason my wife thinks I’m crazy, hearing phrases like, “they better not strangle my crab because I can’t just rely on laughter to get the job done.” Still, it’s less embarrassing than if she knew I was actually playing mill.’ However, these days she’s mostly confused about why I keep complaining about alchemy all day long. “Hon, I thought you liked Roger Bacon and John Dee?”
@@theomnipotent9402 well, I guess I should be honoured, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The section in single brackets is a quote from my comment on a CGB video. I felt I need to add the Alchemy part even though it’s not as amusing. Just cuz I hate Alchemy.
I'm old and dont know how to dm on FB. Love this series. My best memory of the dark days of real life 2020 black summer was waking up on saturday and watching the new b&r video.
I thought you were going to mention MartyrTron by Gabriel Nassif in Worlds 2006 since it basically plays Compulsive Research at the opponent for the win, winning by the opponent eventually not being able to draw cards anymore.
I absolutely hated mill when I first started out playing standard. Izzet could do lot with a perfect hand and ye' ol dual-strike+tasha's. It was quite uninteractive, which led me to despise that type of gameplay. Eventually I just learned it was a different win condition and I just figured I had to race it with my own. No big deal. We ended up building a budget tutelage mill deck in modern to try out the different mechanics and see what we like playing (between my wife and myself). I actually like mill, despite not loving the tempo build. I might upgrade it into dimir mill with crabs and all the good removal that comes with black. We also have 8-rack and enchantress decks set up, so you might understand my willingness to use mechanics that can be fairly unpleasant. Playing games with these decks taught me really quick that it's just another way to play the game. Get your plan setup while disrupting your opponents...pretty simple way of looking at it. Ironically, the most valuable card I've ever gotten out of a booster box was a Painter's Servant. Maybe one day I'll put it in a deck.
@@NizzahonMagic the way you mention it in the beginning it sounds like you can only mill your opponent. You do mention later that you won't talk about self mill decks in this video.
No mention of Persistent Petitioners? Bruvac? Just because they're not championship winning strategies, doesn't mean they shouldn't get ignored in magic's history.
Would you consider something like the UW Control decks in ravnica/dominaria standard that won with Teferi. Hero of Dominaria to be mill decks? Some of them literally had no creatures, and would win by removing everything your opponent had with teferi's emblem, and waiting for your opponent to deck out while you avoided decking out by tucking teferi back into your own deck with his -3 downtick ability.
Bruvac is a great mill deck as well but I guess we're not taking commander. An early rystic study and or remora and I can start one shotting folks by turn 6. I've had 3 clones of bruvac on the field at 1 time just milling folks out
Ok but my mill deck run that 3 mana legendary advisor that doubles milling, plus the 2 mana sorcery with kicker 4 that mills half the library when kicked It's an insta kill
The rogue mill deck was what killed my interest in casual standard because of how frustrating it was to get aggressively bodied on three axis at once; I can't even remember what decks I played at that point (previously I mostly remember the wildgrowth walker, cavalcade and butt-fighting decks) since I just pivoted entirely to Historic instead.
No one enjoys mill, but this was a very interesting video, you always do such a great job researching your topics. I wonder how much you know of decks you talk about before you make the video or is it something fun for you to learn about also?
Mill is always the archetype that tilts most newer players. Seeing all your cards you carefully collected and selected going to your graveyard without you getting a chance to play them is painful. It's a good training archetype to teach players that Magic is an inherently unfair game, and is only as fun as your playgroup agrees to. Yes, the players that get over it tend to go on and find the deeper secrets of this wonderful game, but it's also a massive barrier to entry that many never get over, preferring to stick to Commander, where it's much easier to soft-enforce fun playstyles over victorious ones.
I always think that perspective is silly. Mill itself isn't any more busted than anything else. In fact, your opponent tmilling you is just as likely to help you draw your best card.
@@NizzahonMagic With all respect, I think it's partly that you've been playing the game for so long, and played so many games, that you've forgotten what it's like to be a new player with only a couple dozen games under your belt. I started about three years ago. I'm fine with Mill now, and even agree with you that it's just as likely to get me to my win condition as anything else. That doesn't mean that it wasn't an unpleasant lurch to see that $30 card I spent money on go to my graveyard with no way to get it back, or to watch three separate win cons disappear and draw a land the next turn, or listen to the obnoxious little giggle that every single Mill player without fail gives when they see that happen. I like you, dude. You know the game very well, clearly and obviously love it, and are in it up to your eyeballs. Just... remember that lots, lots more people are simply dipping their toes into Magic, and that many popular deck archetypes feel more like nibbling piranhas than enticing "let's get better!" encouragements. There's a reason that Flesh and Blood started to get so much traction, and it's because Magic has many fundamental flaws. If it hadn't been First, and thus had that inherent advantage, Magic would have died like so many MtG clones.
@@delathenleso5793 I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with new players feeling that way. It is definitely something we all have to learn to understand. Milling seems way more powerful as a new player for sure. I just think characterizing magic as "unfair" with mill as an example isn't what players learn from experiencing mill. I think in the long run it teaches you about variance more than anything. There are also plenty of more established players who hold the view that milling is somehow unfair or unethical, and when it is people who have played for years, it really makes me scratch my head.
@@NizzahonMagic *shrug* fair enough ^_^. There is a definite - and growing - divide between competitive/constructed 4-of players and casual (usually Commander) players in the game. This divide only grows worse over time... and I hold that mill is one of the strategies that encourages the divide, rather than reconciling and trying to bring all players together. I don't necessarily think that we do _need_ to make competitive Magic fully accessible to every single person, because that's impossible, but when the direct response I hear many times to "hey, would you like to borrow a Modern deck and join us in a quick casual tournament" is "no thanks, I don't play icky Magic," then I think there might be a long term problem.
You had my attention till you said Rouge mill... if you aren't winning by mill your not a mill deck your a tempo deck with mill sub- themes, I agreed with your original choice to not add storm decks with brain freeze it seems like that logic should apply more so to Rouge mill.
However, if you combine Painter's servant with Grindstone you can one-shot your opponents entire deck.
However, if you combine Painter's servant with Grindstone you can one-shot your opponents entire deck.
However, if you combine Painter's servant with Grindstone you can one-shot your opponents entire deck.
However, if you combine Painter's servant with Grindstone you can one-shot your opponents entire deck.
@@SomeOfTheJuice However, if you combine Painter's servant with Grindstone you can one-shot your opponents entire deck.
However, if you combine Painter's servant with Grindstone you can one-shot your opponents entire deck.
Congratulations to Millstone to not only term a slang turned keyword in magic, but also being used as slang in other card games.
Millstone is the most referenced trading card of all time, whether the players know it or not
In the Painter decks, you’ll notice that they run a bunch of anti-blue hate cards in the maindeck, like Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast.
Not only do they provide some protection against counterspells, but if you name blue with Painter’s Servant, you can use them to destroy problematic permanents, even lands.
Naming blue also let's you pitch more easily for FoW right?
@@SuzukaYuka Exactly. First Legacy deck I ever built back in 2009, and I used it that way all the time :)
Even though Rogues typically don't/didn't win by milling anyone out, the threat of it happening was actually quite relevant in many matchups. The deck uses mill as a tool to pressure the opponent and to me this kind of usage is more true to the mechanic than mill control or combo. So good job including it here.
idk man i thought it was a stupid mechanic... rogues are a tribal deck. tribal decks win through going face with dudes, pumped up by lords. Mill does not help going face.
@@ich3730 Sure it might not be everyones thing, but personally I enjoyed seeing some diversification in how a tribe plays.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter is AFR which rotates in September
As soon as he said that I had to go check to see if I miscounted and AFR wasn't rotating out.
Woops.
Maddening Cacophony is also rotating out, as is Ruin Crab. So the deck is basically dead on rotation unless they print a couple of new Mill spells in Dominaria United onward. :P
Eh, mistakes happen.
You omitted Lantern Control as well as the Lanternless Whir of Invention brews.
Yes, I realized this just before it went up. Some how my mind was thinking "prison" and not "mill" about those decks, when it is of course both.
A topic near and dear to my heart as a "Magic Boomer" with a Tasha avatar to go with my Hideous Laughter deck. Had a lot more success with discard strategies back in the day tho. Dark ritual into hypnotic spectre was so gnarly in my high school Geometry class at lunchtime meta.
Seeing undead alchemist for the first time was what got me actually in to Magic. I’d had a starter deck and bought a couple boosters for Innistrad and Return to Ravnica. Scrolling through a catalogue of the cards from Innistrad to see what kind of stuff there was to get I saw it and immediately wanted a full set to make a deck for. 10(?) years later I’m still adding new things to the deck and even made a weird commander build around getting it out early as possible. Super fun just amassing a zombie army and killing someone without actually dealing any damage
My favorite mill deck was a recent standard - Teferi's Tutelage and Song of Creation, with foretell cards to get around the Song's downside.
The current standard Izzet Mill deck is absolutely dead after rotation, all the mill components (Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Maddening Cacophony and Ruin Crab) are rotating
Wake up babe new Nizzahon just dropped
My U/W Milldeck was pretty close to the 1996 deck. Notable differences I had 4 howling mines. no factories/creatures, but 4x Ashnod Transmogrant and 4xDivine offering.
My first competitive deck was a control millstone deck! I won a mox pearl!!! 1th place! Old school type one deck.
the new terisian mindbreaker in brothers war is gonna be insane
Fleet Swallower and Fraying Sanity is my favorite Mill combo win
Mill decks ‘are the reason my wife thinks I’m crazy, hearing phrases like, “they better not strangle my crab because I can’t just rely on laughter to get the job done.” Still, it’s less embarrassing than if she knew I was actually playing mill.’
However, these days she’s mostly confused about why I keep complaining about alchemy all day long. “Hon, I thought you liked Roger Bacon and John Dee?”
wife serves you divorce papers with a copy of endurance attached because you play mill
Seen this exact comment on a few other videos from a few other people
@@theomnipotent9402 well, I guess I should be honoured, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The section in single brackets is a quote from my comment on a CGB video. I felt I need to add the Alchemy part even though it’s not as amusing. Just cuz I hate Alchemy.
@@puritendius perhaps it was yours I saw, small world
I had an extended I think, GW Scepter TurboFog. Everyone hated it. Also a Grindstone Painters Servant combo was fun as hell.
I'm old and dont know how to dm on FB. Love this series. My best memory of the dark days of real life 2020 black summer was waking up on saturday and watching the new b&r video.
Does anyone know what happens if you combine Painter's servant with Grindstone?
you can one shot your opponents deck
I have a mill crab deck with all snow islands so that Iceberg Cancrix also triggers with hedron and ruin crabs. also some Charrix for big defense.
aaah mill! A mechanic I love to inflict to others, but I despise when I suffer it! XD btw 11:59 she bacames a 3/2
Tasha's Laughter rotates this autumn though...
I thought you were going to mention MartyrTron by Gabriel Nassif in Worlds 2006 since it basically plays Compulsive Research at the opponent for the win, winning by the opponent eventually not being able to draw cards anymore.
Wow, I didn't expect to see zero Glimpse the Unthinkable in this Video.
One of the most beloved and overrated cards hava
The original ten for one!
Dang i thought you were gonna mention the Myr Retriever turn one mil deck with Altar of the Brood.
No love for masques/invasion standard u/w control? It played blinding angel and millstone along with fact or fiction, absorb, wrath
I absolutely hated mill when I first started out playing standard. Izzet could do lot with a perfect hand and ye' ol dual-strike+tasha's. It was quite uninteractive, which led me to despise that type of gameplay. Eventually I just learned it was a different win condition and I just figured I had to race it with my own. No big deal.
We ended up building a budget tutelage mill deck in modern to try out the different mechanics and see what we like playing (between my wife and myself). I actually like mill, despite not loving the tempo build. I might upgrade it into dimir mill with crabs and all the good removal that comes with black. We also have 8-rack and enchantress decks set up, so you might understand my willingness to use mechanics that can be fairly unpleasant. Playing games with these decks taught me really quick that it's just another way to play the game. Get your plan setup while disrupting your opponents...pretty simple way of looking at it.
Ironically, the most valuable card I've ever gotten out of a booster box was a Painter's Servant. Maybe one day I'll put it in a deck.
UW helm decks would like a word
I used to run Chronatog/Stasis control decks... 'the slow mill'
Millstone can mill your own deck aswell, not just your opponents.
Yes, it sure can. What's your point? Haha
@@NizzahonMagic the way you mention it in the beginning it sounds like you can only mill your opponent. You do mention later that you won't talk about self mill decks in this video.
Love Mill
No mention of Persistent Petitioners? Bruvac? Just because they're not championship winning strategies, doesn't mean they shouldn't get ignored in magic's history.
This video is about Magic's competitive history, so yeah -- no mention of EDH strategies.
How did we not talk about Lantern Control?
🦀🦀🦀 crab mill gang wya 🦀🦀🦀
Would you consider something like the UW Control decks in ravnica/dominaria standard that won with Teferi. Hero of Dominaria to be mill decks? Some of them literally had no creatures, and would win by removing everything your opponent had with teferi's emblem, and waiting for your opponent to deck out while you avoided decking out by tucking teferi back into your own deck with his -3 downtick ability.
Bruvac is a great mill deck as well but I guess we're not taking commander. An early rystic study and or remora and I can start one shotting folks by turn 6. I've had 3 clones of bruvac on the field at 1 time just milling folks out
Ok but my mill deck run that 3 mana legendary advisor that doubles milling, plus the 2 mana sorcery with kicker 4 that mills half the library when kicked
It's an insta kill
The rogue mill deck was what killed my interest in casual standard because of how frustrating it was to get aggressively bodied on three axis at once; I can't even remember what decks I played at that point (previously I mostly remember the wildgrowth walker, cavalcade and butt-fighting decks) since I just pivoted entirely to Historic instead.
The doomwake deck would never kick maddening cacophony
wasnt 2-3 years ago teh 5 mana teferi deck a mill deck ? it has no other wincon then teferi and milling the opponent so i think that was a cool deck
No one enjoys mill, but this was a very interesting video, you always do such a great job researching your topics.
I wonder how much you know of decks you talk about before you make the video or is it something fun for you to learn about also?
I generally have a good idea about the decks, but I do usually learn something in doing the research.
My old deck: 4x Wall of Air, 4x Ghost Ship, 4x Millstone, a bunch of counter magic and removal. Run the gauntlet before time runs out!
8 crab!🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀
Mill is always the archetype that tilts most newer players. Seeing all your cards you carefully collected and selected going to your graveyard without you getting a chance to play them is painful. It's a good training archetype to teach players that Magic is an inherently unfair game, and is only as fun as your playgroup agrees to.
Yes, the players that get over it tend to go on and find the deeper secrets of this wonderful game, but it's also a massive barrier to entry that many never get over, preferring to stick to Commander, where it's much easier to soft-enforce fun playstyles over victorious ones.
I always think that perspective is silly. Mill itself isn't any more busted than anything else. In fact, your opponent tmilling you is just as likely to help you draw your best card.
@@NizzahonMagic With all respect, I think it's partly that you've been playing the game for so long, and played so many games, that you've forgotten what it's like to be a new player with only a couple dozen games under your belt.
I started about three years ago. I'm fine with Mill now, and even agree with you that it's just as likely to get me to my win condition as anything else. That doesn't mean that it wasn't an unpleasant lurch to see that $30 card I spent money on go to my graveyard with no way to get it back, or to watch three separate win cons disappear and draw a land the next turn, or listen to the obnoxious little giggle that every single Mill player without fail gives when they see that happen.
I like you, dude. You know the game very well, clearly and obviously love it, and are in it up to your eyeballs.
Just... remember that lots, lots more people are simply dipping their toes into Magic, and that many popular deck archetypes feel more like nibbling piranhas than enticing "let's get better!" encouragements.
There's a reason that Flesh and Blood started to get so much traction, and it's because Magic has many fundamental flaws. If it hadn't been First, and thus had that inherent advantage, Magic would have died like so many MtG clones.
@@delathenleso5793 I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with new players feeling that way. It is definitely something we all have to learn to understand. Milling seems way more powerful as a new player for sure.
I just think characterizing magic as "unfair" with mill as an example isn't what players learn from experiencing mill. I think in the long run it teaches you about variance more than anything.
There are also plenty of more established players who hold the view that milling is somehow unfair or unethical, and when it is people who have played for years, it really makes me scratch my head.
@@NizzahonMagic *shrug* fair enough ^_^.
There is a definite - and growing - divide between competitive/constructed 4-of players and casual (usually Commander) players in the game. This divide only grows worse over time... and I hold that mill is one of the strategies that encourages the divide, rather than reconciling and trying to bring all players together.
I don't necessarily think that we do _need_ to make competitive Magic fully accessible to every single person, because that's impossible, but when the direct response I hear many times to "hey, would you like to borrow a Modern deck and join us in a quick casual tournament" is "no thanks, I don't play icky Magic," then I think there might be a long term problem.
CRAAAAAABS
I love mill decks in card games. There is really no trollier way to win.
Tramastone
You had my attention till you said Rouge mill... if you aren't winning by mill your not a mill deck your a tempo deck with mill sub- themes, I agreed with your original choice to not add storm decks with brain freeze it seems like that logic should apply more so to Rouge mill.
I never said rouge mill.
I did, however, say rogue mill.
Sometimes you do win by mill.
Has Vintage not had a successful history with mill?
It's weird to me that Yu-Gi-Oh fans say "mill" for the same effect.
Alter of dimentia?
Really only ever used successfully in self-mill decks.
First
Grim thief gets no respect. Almost as if she where exiled.
mill worst possible way to not play magic ^^
"Hey, I just spent $X.xx on my new deck, wanna see it?"
Mill Player "NO"
😵💫