BUTCHERED Jeep Timing Job?? (Part 1 - P0018 Correlation)
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- Owner drove his 2014 Jeep Wrangler V6 about 4 hours from NJ to get a guaranteed DIAGNOSIS on a persistent *P0018 Cam-Crank Correlation DTC*.
The Jeep is in FAIL-SAFE mode where all VVT functionality is disabled.
This P0018 appeared AFTER a local shop installed new rockers and timing chains.
Obviously they messed something up...but WHAT??
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Ivan
Just to eliminate a really unlikely cause, you could check the wire colors on the cam sensor connector and see if the signal wires for the two cams might be switched on the bank with the problem. The cam signal phasing might be different between the two cams. There is no logical reason for anyone to touch them, but you're not dealing with a logical problem. Possibly the connector came apart when someone unplugged it and it was repaired wrong.
Ooh interesting theory!! I like it 😁
LOL, I was thinking the exact same thing. I may have missed it while trying to do too many things at once, but also thought 'maybe' that that side is off one tooth at the crank?
Another head scratcher for sure. Well, assuming the connectors are all correct I would guess that the reluctors or the magnets inside are out of wack which would be doubtful if they are original. So what does that leave if everything else is correct? The ecm? Interesting. 👍👍🇺🇸
@@brianw8963 I haven't watched the video a second time yet to see what new parts were changed, but I suspect the cams on the problem side are wrong, possibly the part numbers are for the other bank. Hopefully we'll find out tomorrow.
The backward facing alternator always makes me think if Chrysler actually forgot it was needed until they assembled a few hundred.
...or the OEM got a large run of alternators built backwards at a discount...🤔🤣
I noticed the same 😅
That’s very funny stuff lol
Pretty more funy😅
And the fact you have to remove the bracket to get the belt on is insane
I'd look at those valve covers very closely. Is there supposed to be some plastic washer or rubber gromet there, and that's why the sensor is falling down too deep into it's mounting hole? I think you're onto something about the depth of the sensor. I would think that maybe it's a sheared pin behind the phasors, but the odds of them both doing it are very low IMO. Plus it would likely be running much worse. Should be interesting to see the outcome.
This is a great case study - very challenging . Ivan your diagnostic process is amazing ! I’m racking my brain to get some other possible causes. Gonna watch a second time and track along with EXTRA concentration to all your coaching / remarks . This is better than Netflix !! 👊🏼
Hi from OZ, I always look forward to your challenging fault finding video's, this is from a grand cherokee manual, same engine, not sure how you would check this without replacing the camshafts, "CAUTION: The magnetic timing wheels must not come in contact with magnets (pickup tools, trays, etc.) or any other strong magnetic field. This will
destroy the timing wheels ability to correctly relay camshaft position to
the camshaft position sensor."
I’ve seen a wrangler have this exact issue before, p0018, rough running only when cold, then would run fine after warm up. verified mechanical timing, command vs actual etc. the issue was incorrect oil viscosity used by customer.
Mopar recommends 5w-20, customer had mobile 1, 10w30 and really thick Lucas oil stabilizer. Flushed the system, replaced with OE filter, used mopar branded 5w-20 part #68518202aa. Cleared all DTCs, wrangler has been back in for other services but the p0018 never returned.
Chrysler Pentajunk never ceases to amaze
Compare the cam sensors to see how far down each one sits. The oddball might be made wrong or even for a different engine or year of vehicle.
My guess is the VVT solenoid is the culprit since It's the only piece that can change the cam timing.
A car you did had the same issue, piece of plastic in the VVT solenoid throwing the timing out of whack.
That dual sensor didn't look right and appears to have come in contact with the reluctor wheels. Good one Ivan!
A interesting issue! And we are saying that the sensor is OEM so it can't actually be sitting to low (or too high) in its spot! Humm. Can't wait for part 2!
Ivan, I'd check the cam sensor depth on the cover. Maybe it's possible the sensor is sitting too high/low relative to the other bank.
Could it be the valve cover? I don't know about those sensor having some kind of adjustment which be a convenient fix though. Even still, what was that gray stuff of the reluctance wheels.
could there possibly be an O ring seal on the valve cover where the dual cam sensor lands? If it was missing, that would drop the sensor deeper between the cams, changing the readings on both and maybe causing some contact between the sensor and reluctor wheels. just a guess. Love your channel Ivan. I'm from Big Flats, near where your parents live
Height of sensor position at reluctor wheel could be an issue too. If the sensors were replaced with aftermarket I could see them being 1-2 mm in height difference.
Im leaning towards something affecting the height of that dual cam sensor. Maybe the valve cover gasket. Also id try to verify the trigger wheel is lined up correctly. We had a gm recently brand new cam with a damaged tone wheel.
Looking at that cam sensor design and mounting location, my next step would be to look at the valve cover, valve cover gasket and all related mounting hardware, including the sensor hardware, and cross reference part numbers by VIN for the valve cover, gasket and cams if they were replaced, as Mopar just loves their mid-year model tweaks.
This could potentially be a situation where fastener torque on the valve cover makes a difference, too.
As always, my post comes with the "internet speculation" advisory. ;)
Aftermarket valve cover gaskets causing sensor assy to sit higher in relation to the cam. Love the content!
I believe the sensor would be sitting low not high. If you think about the intake and exhaust cam rotation if the sensor was high the intake wave would be seen first and the exhaust seen later we have the opposite on are hands here. If you fallow
Verify the chain marks, I had one from a reputable supplier and the mark for the crank was in the wrong location. Was on a 2009 dodge caliber, cheers Ivan
maybe theres a back and front to the chain, so if it was backwards, the timing marks would be opposite ?
Just like you said before start with the way more expensive OEM parts and wait eons to get them and go from there. I see the not factory oem spec chinese parts becoming a big issue today. Maybe you might have to shim the sensor to get it to sit right but if the cams aren't out of alignment and the chain hasn't been installed wrong and the engine can do basic timing, then the sensor is not reporting the correct values to the computer.
Ivan, I'm scratching my head along with yours. Looking forward to Part 2. Thanks for Sharing! 😲🥴🙃🙂
I had a weird one once only affected one cam and mine was more erratic on the scope. Was a different motor not a Chrysler but mine was a cam bore allowing the cam to wiggle or should I say walk around. Was cheaper to put a whole motor in it. Ford fiesta it was. Looking forward to part 2.
Thank you for making this video. Lot of this stuff is way over my head. Last month I had a couple of cam shafts and rocker arms replaced. My abs and traction lights were on, jeep in limp mode and ticking. Dealer fixed it. Next day my traction light onky went on again. Brought back to dealer and told me rear right speed sensor was bad. Replaced that. Jeep ran great until yesterday. Now the traction light is on again and the jeep is in limp mode. Also have check engine light on. And a new issue has appeared. When starting the jeep, it cranks longer than is should before starting. On one attempt it took a while, started, then the engine shut off. I know it’s not the starter because I have a new one that’s not even a year old. I suspect the starting hesitation is a symptom that can help diagnose the issue. Posting here in case anyone has any ideas. I’m bringing back to the dealer but honestly I’m just done with this vehicle. Have 129k on it and took care of it since I’ve had it. Never in my life have I had a vehicle with so many issues. Codes im getting when I put my scanner on are several. P0365, P0340, P0018 and P0019
Beats the hell out of me. I have confidence you'll figure it out.
This much I would know to do if a cam sensor had to be replaced. If it has two of them, I'd be sure to match them up from the same maker (OEM) so if they decided to replace one with brand X, I'd recommend replacing both of them AND I would save the old, both for the owners parts box.
This is a good one. I don't think that the cams got swapped around because if that was the case, the problem would be on both banks. And it's not. The cam sensor might be an issue. Could the seal for the sensor be thicker or thinner, thus effecting the sensor depth? Unlikely, but possible. It's hard to say. I'm certainly looking forward to part 2.
These sensors bottom out on the head.
I just did valve cover gaskets on the same engine 2 days ago. There are no shims, there are no "O" rings inside where the sensor seats. The bolt goes down through the middle of the sensor into the cylinder head. This is perplexing.
Interesting.. The timing does look spot on and the camshafts show LE - LI , so they are positioned correctly and highly doubt both reluctor wheels slipped . Everything looks good. Something must be wrong with the vvt solenoids causing the phasers to get stuck in wrong postion once the engine starts. I have always used the camshaft holder tools working on these pentastars, never had to remove the front timing cover when replacing the camshafts, so not sure why they did all that nonsense.
Wow you really get the weird ones!
These cams tone rings are magnetic. If you so much as run a magnet by them it will demagnetize the tone ring. It's possible to run a magent by one or more and change the output signal.
For sure. But the signal was perfect, just shifted slightly 😉
@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Yeah. As soon as i saw the waveforms I thought that cant be it. I can't think of any other way that you'd have those signals other than the tone rings being shifted. Everything is in time. I mean you already know what's wrong with it. But I'm watching thinking "how"? Unless the cams themselves got reversed. But the cams have markings on them too that indicate intake and exhaust.
@@edwinlomonaco6754 exactly. Visual inspection showed everything was just perfect! 😅
@Ivan i would have a better kiccker for you
engine vibrations with no error codes
- spark present no issues
- fuell present no issues
- timing backed by -2 on all 4 cams (v8)
god knows why its wibrating but... i know the machine shop redoing heads took more material form one head vs the other and probably thats causing the vibrations (you can kind of see it on the scope but not really)
now they made the head 'trapezoid' shape along the side so the last cylinder has more compression than the first one on the bank. and ofc. the other head is a bit better shape. How they did it i have no clue... but it shows if you do comp ratio check using some fluid and syringe - That's a wild one man :)
The code in question is for a particular cam there is a cheat sheet “tsb” do too early manufacturing whoas , phasers, sensor,and even wiring . I’ve seen phasers on wrong cams and cams in wrong locations and that an only happen wit left/drivers side head if cams are swapped .recheck your mechanical then chase what diag sheet says . Yes the dept that wrote Manuel labeled it in the incorrect order. The issues are usaually one cam was a tooth off or the cam was layed on a magnetic tray an messed up encoder wheel have even seen them dented just a little or turned ! It’s a low bid design really
Great work in showing how to properly fishing with being less intrusive ,love these videos good job
Being a well known issue of shifted reluctors I'm thinking thats what is happening here. Even if the shop put in cams, I doubt they actually used OE and two there has been times brand new ones have been off somewhat rare but does happen. Will be interesting to see the outcome.
My bet is on shifted tone wheel on cams, mopar makes a tool to check for it. waiting for next part! Cheers.
Wow, that is hard one is the timing is perfect! But still fussing about the signal crap! That went over my head lol. I'll wait for part 2 lol. Great video Ivan! Be glad it's not transverse mounted lol.
Oh, I thought i knew everything 15 years ago, Then i learned the scope. I realized i really didnt know crap, and i got much much better. The Scope Ivan has is the best of the best. Picoscopes are the standard by which all are judged and fall short. I have several oscilloscopes, I use them often. If you are a tech, learn it.
I think you should scope a cylinder pressure transducer. That would tell you if the cam is really off, or just reading off. (It is minimally invasive.) ;)
Great suggestion! Compression is even and engine runs super smooth 😉
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Which makes me suspect the sensor end.
I love the head-scratchers. My gut tells me the fix will be easy once discovered.
My list:
•the reluctor wheels(both) are off-- unlikely
•the sensor is positioned wrong
•the valve cover is wrong or
¿swapped?
•there's other sensor
interference
•the exh/in wiring is
•swapped or
•twisted
•the cams are wrong
•the ecm is defective
I've had similar issues with Ford Transits that have had engine swaps. Donor engine a few years older than the original vehicle. The CAM sensors pick up the peak part of the lobe, the pointy bit of the lobe if you will. On the waveform the first CAM signal transition starts slightly too early and the second transition is too late. Obviously there are just two transitions as its just picking up the peak of the lobe. Basically the dip in the signal is too wide. Raising the sensor pulls it away from the lobe thus narrowing the dip and makes the transitions occur later and earlier respectively. Putting a washer underneath the sensor to hold it off by about 1/3mm gets rid of the fault code. Sounds like a similar situation. Awaiting part 2 👍
The rocker failures in these engines is caused by the oil galley plugs below the cams. Those bolts come loose and bleed oil pressure back to crankcase which causes low oil pressure in cylinder head wiping the rockers and cam out
I think you mean the lifters go bad not the bolts coming loose took me a minute to figure out what you're trying to say That's what they replaced that's what he said in the beginning of the video
Interesting...
👍🏼 good thinking
@@shogunofgrowing4839 no I am talking about the rocker arms and the bearings inside the roller failing from lack of oil pressure due to oil galley plugs under the timing chain gears being loose. It grinds camshaft flat. So far 3 vehicles and they all were finger tight
Phasers not working correctly. Inspection of the oil control solenoid and valves. Have seen people install the rocker cover with the actuators installed at the front and bend the actuator pins. Once the actuator pins are bent they won't retract into the actuators. The causes the phaser to adjust the cam shaft position.
Hello from Sweden Ivan, waiting for part 2, its like waiting on next episode of The tv serie Macahans in the 70ths 😊
Long live pushrods.
This is definitely an interesting one. Its amazing what that scope is able to show. Guess you can't really fault the other shop if all they had to work with was the normal timing marks on the cams. Looking forward to part 2 . Wondering what shimming the cam sensor would do? Just have to wait and see what you discover.
I think you might have touched on the issue. I was thinking all the way that it's a sensor/ reluctor problem.
Love your work Ivan, I hope one of the cams is incorrect as a smaller reluctor would affect timing. A part number should be visible on them somewhere.
WOW! That's a really hard one, Ivan! The timing being correct, the only thing left is the position (or angle) of the cam sensor relative to the reluctor wheels, assuming the reluctors are not shifted, which seems too far fetched. Can't wait for Part 2 - I think it will blow my mind :-)
This going to be a good one thanks for sharing.
My bet is on the cam sensor sitting too low causeing the intake wave to show up early and the exhaust to show up later. May be caused by valve cover hight possible causeing the sensor to be closer to the head then normal.
Try to clean the two magnetic rings, as they may be magnetically contaminated, & clean, & maybe....if it's ok to do...demagnetize the rear dual magnetic sensor, seems it has grey debris there.
WoW, what an interesting case study😍
I think it's a flashing issue, bcuz some manufacturer's will recommend this in their TSB's related to timing issue's, that if a timing code has prolonged in the ECU there might be a chance that after replacing all the part's you've to reflash it to get it cleared.
But, waiting for part 2😍
Thanks for sharing BRO Stay Safe😍
Hum, I'd say it could be the height of the dual sensor or reluctor wheel that's taking in account that the cams are right.
I’d do in cylinder pressure check,both banks,to check the camb timing,the pcm is seeing data,if the cylinder checks doesn’t agree with the pcm data,have the mag pickups been moved,very interesting diagnostic,I’m fascinated by the power of the scope,and following the data.
Hmmm. Isn't the sensor mounted in the valve cover? So a difference in gasket thickness would throw it off?
It has separate timing chains. My guess: The chain for that bank is off one tooth at the crank, and the cams are one tooth off from each other. A crank tooth is 11 degrees.
When somethings difficult to see, just take a picture with your phone and look at that. 😌
I was thinking the tone wheel in back of cam
I would have started by returning it to the dealer. It should have a warranty for the camm and follower replacement. That said I know you will figure the problem out and get it fixed.
Looking forward to part 2!
I must admit, I have never seen a Tesla with this issue. My 2002 2.0 DOHC Focus has no VVT, and has no issues. Port F.I. 207K miles.
If the car is idling fine, then its a reporting problem not a mechanical one, magnetic reluctor wheel maybe.
Some how UA-cam deleted my comment. The reluctor wheels can be damaged by a magnet put next to them. It can be checked with this green film to show the pattern. Also there’s a tool gauge that is used to check if reluctor wheels have shifted . It’s about $145 but sometimes necessary
I don't keep cars long enough where I need timing unless the water pump goes out. But going to Alldata, watching some videos, and doing the timing belt or whatever needs replacement is the low bar for doing serious work on a high milage car. If you cannot do that you should not consider an older car that needs a lot of work, because it is old and has a lot of worn-out parts.
At this point I'd have checked the cmp signals again this time with the vvti actuators unplugged :) then as someone else suggest, swap the exh & intake signal wires, if those two turn out to be fine, then you might actually have two shifted reloctor wheels 🫠
Where did you get all your knowledge? I like how you walk us through your diagnostics Ivan.
Well there is a very important note in the repair instructions about not letting the ends of the cams touch anything magnetic or it could cause this issue
Wow…got me thinkin. Cant wait for part two!!
Time for some STP oil treatment, and less idling ? This one has a oil pressure gauge? For the 2 stage oil pump debacle
How loose are the phasers to the cams? With 'Butchered' in the title, I suspect a dumb mistake with the installation. Its interesting the cam error PID jumps around a lot on bank 1 but not at all on bank 2... Can''t wait for part 2!
Dr Cliff and Physician Hanger, my friend; nice one Tell the Jeep customer he's nearly had you doing the whole job again.
Properly
Find out how many spare parts the other shop had leftover when they finished the timing job and you may find something interesting.
There's no way both cams have the same problem in the opposite direction but the same amount. It looks like lifting it by a tiny amount would make it the same as the other bank. Can't see the valve cover but it looks like a missing washer would cover the distance. Or maybe somethings wrong with the cover itself?
Tell the customer to pull the check engine light bulb and trade it in😜
Check left exhaust camshaft to phaser fit there is a dot on cam and a dot on phaser looks like yours is misaligned like locating pin is sheared off if ok tone wheels might be shifted
I was sure that the chinesium sensor would be the problem but after you swapped them over the problem did not go away.Could that chinesium sensor had be touching the reluctor wheels & leaving some small trace on them which is altering the signal ? Cheers mate be very interested in the final result.
If one of the cam sensors was replaced with a non-OEM one then the sensors could have been designed with different sensitivities. If one sensor has a slightly different sensitivity to trigger or even a delay in the state change then that could cause what you see in the graphs. Might need two of the same sensors... But the magnets on the camshafts could be causing this as well... or the wrong camshafts were used...
This reminds me of the Chrysler 200 I told you about. The reluctor was spinning on the camshaft. Scan data PIDs showed anywhere from 0 to 160 degrees... and the engine would start loping severely. Lol.
That shop had the engine (it was a used replacement) out at least 3 times, checking timing and pulling valve covers, until I told them the reluctors on the camshaft was the issue. I believe the damage was due to how the used engine was handled. The valve cover had obvious damage, and I think the covers were just swapped with the original. They didn't think of the possible damage to those cams. Only pressed on. They're thin metal like wheel seals, I'm sure get distorted with time & heat cycles too.
I think those reluctors moved while it was worked on? 🤔 That's my theory. 😅
I just read the comments. I like where someone said go in cylinder. Compare bank to bank for ruling out mechanical timing.... then deduce from there. 🤔
That was my thought too Cuba... But what are the chances of BOTH cams shifting reluctors in opposite directions by the same amount?? 🤪
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics this shop doesn't seem to be the butcher type... so I suppose not in this case. More like sensor position like you said at the end. Lol. I got excited & just started typing mid vid. 😅
@@CubasAutomotive part 2 will blow your mind 😆
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Ah come on... you can't drop a comment like that and leave us hanging.
Cam has shifted clockwise or,counter clockwise on the cam gears/relucotor wheels somehow. Range Rover Evoques do this exact thing. Somehow the cams have managed to be off 1 tooth of rotation. Just my guess. Though I’m only 1/2 way through video at moment.
23:22 Momentarily explaining for me is that wheel shift's maybe are moved somehow by few degrees...
I don't get why it even left the garage if it wasn't right ?
Why do people let these so called " MECHANICS " get away with this ?
Good point.
Don't get it either, I have to fix all of my fuck up's.
Customer took it back THREE TIMES and they charged more $ and didn't fix it 😆
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I wouldn't pay till it was fixed right 3 times 10 times, doesn't matter.
Why would you pay if it wasn't right ?
I also have 2 vehicles maybe customer doesn't.
@@NoWr2Runim sure they said it was all ready to go and he paid and drove off, then oops it’s not right. Already had his money.
Very easy . The chain on the crank is off by a tooth . There’s 2 arrows at the bottom . If the colored link is not on the arrow it will cause this code .
Aaaand you would be wrong... Not so easy. Watch part 2 😉
I had a similar issue on a Miata, the mechanic missed the hole in the cam to gear alignment by half a tooth. Ended up needing cam and gear.
OUCH lol
Nice Gravely hat!
I'm working on 2015 Jeep v6 with code p0019..My scanner shows the exhaust cam -40 bank 2 the other cams @ -4.00 @ idle.. Haven't tore it apart but feel the ring on the end has moved. This is my first @ this make an model situation. This is expensive job in parts to properly fix it correctly
you NEVER do a timing chain job without replacing phasers. especially on Ford,chevy, or chrysler product. learned that the hard way.
Error per tooth is only 360/33= 10.91 Degrees. But you verified timing chain was correct with marks and flats of cams. Check if VVT’s solenoid harness connectors are not switched. If not VVT solenoid connectors switched, then make sure VVT solenoids intake and exhaust are physically not swapped, assuming they are physically different and would make a difference…..
Have to double that to get CRANK degrees :)
WEIRD issue for sure.
What about the timing chain tensioner guide feet or any of the other guides/feet???
those are totally normal codes for those jeeps . time to pull the cel and send it to the auction 😂😂
maybe you can add a thin washer spacer under the sensor to space it up slightly
Call the customer and say "It's a Jeep thing..."
That's what the other shop told him 🤣
Magnetic reluctors shift if somebody got magnet too close to the reluctors.
This came up on my UA-cam feed this morning. ironically, I just did a valve job on a 2012 minivan and it runs great now, but all the cams are showing about 10 degrees of discrepancy with the crank. The desired and actual positions are spot on... within a few degrees according to the data PID.
The engine appeared virgin, and I replaced the plastic timing components, but otherwise, I used the same chains and gears, etc. There's no excess chain stretch according to the tensioners.
Could the 33 teeth be divided into 360 degrees which gives 10.9 degrees? I guess that depends on how the data is extrapolated. I never removed the primary chain, but replaced the tensioner and guide, and I am pretty sure that it never skipped a tooth.
Maybe all the cam reluctors shifted, and the head milling and new guides put the data PID over the edge to set a code?
86,000 miles and needed a valve job. I am honestly about to call it quits with Fiat/Daimler stuff.
IVAN, Before even start watching gave it a thump up because I know will learn/good info will be presented cheeeeeeers and thanks.
Could there be an issue with the new chain? Obviously, we have learned New doesn’t mean good. Also are the chains identical between the two banks? In my mind a stretched chain could be the cause, but maybe I spent to much time in the sun today. 😂😂
Could a spacer under the cam position sensor be missing?
Get a sensor with the same number on it (original). If swapping them and the numbers went with sensor as it moved.
Magnetic rings look suspicious just a wild hay maker .
Manually check for TDC; timing mark on the vibration dampner can be off;
24:50 Попробуй провернуть задаюший диск относительной распредвала, возможно там причина неисправности!
Could the pcm be reading it wrong?? Lol!! Got me!
I think during first job they messed up camshaft sensor then replaced it with aftermarket sensor but some damage to cam shaft cover or reluctor wheel.
I had also thought about a weak connection in the harness for that reluctor, like failing internal connection. The issue did remain driver's side, right? Was relieved the cams weren't swapped, though. 🤔🤔🤔
They are well marked so that's the best bet then you know it goes sensors one tooth and that's why maybe have to check timing marks then it's more teardown