Ítalo Calvino wrote that a classic is a book that didn't stop saying what it has to say. That is, its content is still relevant, the world changes and even so we can read it and its still important. I'm a literature teacher and read A LOT of Fantasy and SciFi books, and for me Literature is everything that is in my library. No distinctions.
The big difference between something like ACOTAR and War & Peace or Great Gatsby is entertainment. ACOTAR is a great series because it entertains and really draws the reader into the world, i.e. escapism. Classic books or great literature can be entertaining but that is not their primary draw. They deal with perennial questions and how the current age wrestles or struggles with them through characters that are unique and feel real like someone we know and are not carbon copies that can be found 10x over in other books. Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment, Captain Ahab in Moby Dick, King Lear, Macbeth, Odysseus, Ivan Karamazov in TBK or Gatsby himself are titans of characters that are timeless and speak to the soul of the human condition. In other words you're not reading just to be entertained, it is an aspect of classic literature yes but you reading for wisdom about what it means to be human in a fallen world. Flannery O'Connor sums it up perfectly in this famous quote of hers: "I'm always irritated by people who imply that [reading] fiction is an escape from reality. It is a plunge into reality and it's very shocking to the system.”
This reminds me of the chat Rich and I had where we were looking at “art vs entertainment” and how some works make you reflect, while others are a ‘distraction’ and maybe there’s a whole nother video to discuss on that - thanks for the thoughts!
Loved the analysis of what constitutes a classic. I definitely think anything in the 80's, or earlier, is 'classics' territory, so that would include Lonesome Dove. I'm really liking your recent deep dives into different reading topics. Personally, many off my all-time favorite books are classics. So no, they most definitely are not outright boring, by any means. In fact, I find many of them to be better written, deeper, and have more nuance than most modern books. Of course, this is just generally speaking. That being said, there are many classics that surpass anything I've read in recent decades. Books like To Kill a Mockingbird, East of Eden, The Brothers Karamazov, Lonesome Dove, 1984, The Lord of the Rings and Shogun all sit in my personal top 10 list, and that's while 90%+ books I've read are actually modern. I have yet to read The Great Gatsby, though, so that one could end up making the list. Same goes for Les Miserables, which is supposed to be incredible.
What truly makes a classic is it's longevity, how we can still find relevance to its themes in our own lives. One of the best examples is Tom sawyer. He lived is a world without telegraphs or telephones almost 200 years ago, a time hard to relate to, but you can still relate to the kid: he wants to skip school and hang with Huck Finn, the cool older kid who's also the town outcast, and they go on adventures together. Kids 200 years from now will still relate to Tom
In my experience, reading The Great Gatsby, 1984, and Of Mice & Men my freshman year of high school (2009-2010) immediately changed the way I felt about reading! It was the first time I was flying through books that weren’t Harry Potter or Twilight 😅
Hoover dam. And cup of coffee ☕️ for Rich. Here over the pond in the UK we get taught Shakespeare and Dickens which I think you can say are definitely classics. Luckily my English teacher was a bit of rebel and she actually taught us more sci-fi like Day of the Triffids. But my sons did Bill S and Charlie D. As I didn’t read many classics in school I’m trying to read at least one every year in between SFF goodness. I’ve read Emma and The Count of Monte Cristo in the last couple of years. I have the Iliad and Shogun on my Kindle for when I feel ready for them. I think Mr Sanderson may take priority at the end of the year though 😂
To answer the title, no, they are not boring, though some can be. I've been reading Tolstoy lately, War & Peace and Sevastopol done and I'm on Anna Karenina, and I find myself reacting the the text more often than with modern books. By reacting I mean laughing, or gasping in horror, some physical reaction to what I read. He does the best job I've seen of making you like or dislike a character through their own thoughts, often with only a single line, and sometimes biting down to deep feelings that people never express, like a mother's deep, undeniable jealousy at the happiness of her own daughter's first love, or a father who knows which of his five children is his favorite, and tries not to show it to the others (but fails, and the other children can tell daddy loves them least.) There's a great scene in War & Peace during the Battle of Austerlitz where one of the main characters (for the first half), Nikolai Rostov, charges into battle and for the first time is being shot at, and his reaction is to wonder "They're shooting at me? They're shooting at me! I, who am loved by all! How can they shoot at me?" I love how Tolstoy can make a character loveably or hateable neurotic or narcissistic by showing us just one of their thoughts. Near the beginning of Anna Karenina, a character, Vronsky, sees Anna talking to her brother off in the distance, and becomes "provoked" at the thought that the are actually talking about a subject that is not himself. I feel like modern writing of often very simplified and commercialized for a large audience. This makes the writing forgettable. I'd heard Robert Greene talk about his writing process, and how he likes to use more unconventional language, both because it's better at getting his point across and it tends to age better. And he's right. Imagine if Lord of the Rings were written in modern simple English like The Way of Kings or Fourth Wing. It wouldn't be nearly as memorable or well regarded as it is. Having said all that, some classic books and authors I found insufferable. Anything by Hawthorne is a chore, I hate nate. For my hot take, I absolutely cannot stand Jane Eyre - this is a book that would never be published today. Anywhere that 25 syllables would suffice to describe something with some poetic leave, Chartlotte Bronte uses 150 syllables. Every single sentence is overwritten to the point of being as long and annoying to read as they could possibly be. Tl;dr depends on the classic book. Some of them aged well. Some feel like they are a chore that are owed your time. Edit; Oh, and HOOVER DAM. No it wasn't boring - but I did learn that a channel aimed at modern fantasy readers isn't best positioned to evaluate work about family and society in the 1950s or 1800s.
Just wanted to let you guys know that you've played a huge role in my return to reading ❤ Since I've found your channel & a few others 2 months ago I've completed 5 books (2 of which being TWOK & WOR 😅), and I'm currently halfway through Oathbringer & The Will Of The Many! Never stop doing what you're doing, the content is amazing. One question though, do either of you have any interest in reading Manga? If so, I would highly recommend Vinland Saga!
Thanks so much, an honor that we were a part of your reading journey! (Honor isnt dead) - I know Rich has read Mangas but I havent. I dont have any interest at the moment, but if I eventually get there Ill keep this in mind thankya 🫡
I believe that one of the reasons some people say classic books are boring is because they don't have the attention span, nor the patience to enjoy a book that takes it's time. They need nonstop action in order to enjoy books while they totally ignore the messages and themes.
I think a lot of has to do with how we're introduced to them. Being required to read specific ones, often at a breakneck speed that doesn't really allow time to think about the themes and messages, at too young an age. I know I had to read roughly 40 pages a night of Great Expectations at age 13, on top of all my other homework. It was a horrible experience, and I have no idea if it's actually a good book. Imagine only having read 10-15 modern books, being told by someone else which ones and how fast you had to read them. You might then say modern books are all boring.
@@katherinep1010 I was an avid reader from a young age, and I had a great teacher or two, so I didn't mind the assignments, lol. But I agree with you. I definitely think classics should be introduced to younger/newer readers, but I wish more care would be taken when doing so.
I love classic novels and I love classic movies. I think the key to enjoying them is the expectations you set prior to starting them. I like Dickens but I don't ever expect conciseness when I read him. The meandering nature is part of the appeal
The way Rich described feeling when watching that movie (struggling while watching and only being able to fully appreciate it in hindsight) is how I most often feel when reading classics tbh. I have no shame in admitting that I read more for enjoyment than any intellectual purposes, so sometimes the higher effort required to read classics just frustrates me. Or maybe I am a bit of a lazy reader, also totally possible lol. Also, I kinda agree with Rich that ASOIAF won't be a classic over time, at least not outside of the fantasy genre. I actually think it is harder for full-on secondary world fantasy books to gain that classic status because they often don't interact with a certain cultural zeitgeist like literary fiction does, you know? In any case, IF classics are boring then you guys did an exceptional job of making a chat about them fun, so kudos to you 🤣
I just want to clarify to Austin that pipeweed is tobacco, not weed. It has no significance or influence on hippie culture. Pan MacMillan published an article stating a classic put simply is merely a book that stands the test of time. Which implies it must be a good book. To say a book is an instant classic isn't really possible. For example, if we use To Kill a Mocking Bird's instant success and compare it to Fourth Wing. Do you think Fourth Wing will be a classic in 50 years? Doubtful. I would say Dracula is a classic that is anything but boring.
Also, yall should check out Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry. A 92 year old author in Kentucky that writes beautiful poetry and novels. All of his books relate and reflect his life and his setting he lives in: farming! Jayber is the barber in a small town and the only reason he got the job was because the last one died. I truly think yall or Richard would like it. (Not fantasy) also I don’t know if I sold it but check out Goodreads lol
Hoover dam! On books stopping being classics, absolutely that happens. Think about how many classic we have that are less than 100 years old (probably more than half the ones you guys mentioned) vs ones that are 400 or 1000 years old.
My last book I read was the Great Gatsby and really had no clue what was going on, I felt like I read page after page without remembering what was going on....Except for the last 30 pages.. Read a few classics tho, Enjoyed the Island of DR Moreau, Jane Austins books (not all of them tho), Dracula, Frankenstein (thought that would be way more entertaining), The picture of Dorian Gray (enjoyed that one), 20.000 leagues under the sea...(One of the books that you need to read with dictionary but for a reason)... Personally whats more interesting for me is the reason why people call each book a classic. I like to read about Jules Verne and why some of his books are hard to read, why did they wanted to ban The picture of Dorian Gray, How did Jane Austin live? etc....
Study of birds is ornithology. A lot of the names are just description turned into name. A woodpecker with a red head is called a red headed woodpecker. Even woodpecker is a bird that pecks at wood to find insects. I love bird names but some of the are… over the top :)
To say classics are boring is lumping up the entire history of literature into a couple books that you didn’t personally connect with. Each generation of writers from cultures throughout history have created works of literature that continue to be relevant throughout the generations. So if you have read a book considered a classic that didn’t interest you, please consider reading from another time period or culture. Not a fan of Pride and Prejudice? Try The Tale of the Heike. The page length of War and Peace troubling you? Pick up the Alexiad. You can easily find them online or on UA-cam as audio for free. Many classics speak to me on a personal level in a way modern books…….don’t consistently. One I would recommend is Great Expectations. My mom read it to me when I was ten. I hated it and thought it was the most boring thing ever printed. Now it’s in my top ten books of all time and has been hugely influential in my life. I hope more of our generation gives this enormous collection of stories a chance! Happy Reading! 📖
SO glad I studied science, most of the lecturers loved their subjects, if not the annoying students. I will never forget PJ, the lecturer who reinacted India 'racing up the Indian ocean and SLAMING into Asia at a rate of 2cm a year' (or whatever, 2mm a year...) Many of the older classics are not for everyone, but some of them are really amazing, better than you would believe if you can approach them right. Coleen Hoover, Like Georgette Heyer and Jilly Cooper before her, will not survive.
I grew up listening to classic books, and I have to say, I personally prefer contemporary fiction nowadays. Not to say old stories can't be interesting, but I also couldn't finish the Brother's Grim collected works, nor have I really wanted to read any classic for the last like ten years (unless you count aSoIaF as a classic). A part of it is that old books seem to have worse narration across the board compared to titles that have been released more recently. Let's see, I have listened to the Jungle Book, Tolken's collected work (including Sirmarilion), a lot of fairy tales (including about half of the brother's grim unabridged collection), the Chronicles of Narina, Peter Pan in Red, the Little Prince, the Original Shannara Trilogy, Beowulf and Dracula. Of those I only really relistened since becoming an adult is the Brother's Grim's Fariy tales as I had only heard some of the stories, and not unabridged. Still I do enjoy summaries, condensed versions of classic stories. Like the Iliad, the Odyssey, and Sun Wukong (Journey to the West). Mostly the summaries made by Overly Sarcastic Production's Red. I also enjoy contemporary book series that draw on mythology, and old legends/myths. Like Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson, and the Egyptian and Norse inspired series of his which I think I enjoyed more. I also occasionally hunt down fairy tales for inspiration. There's a ttRPG called City of Mist which let you make any character you want, and encourages you to base your character on a story. Either a fairy tale, myth, or urban legend among others.
Chilling out at the hoover dam. I haven't read Londsome Dove but I did just finish The Last Picture Show. He has such a way of portraying such realized characters. There was also a lot of weird sex stuff but lets just look past that for now haha.
Love all your vids have currently binged several and have started reading again thanks to you guys.... as well as Carl and donut hahahaha also Hola from Mexico
Im currently writing a book called 50 shades of Austin and Richard. It is about two guys who have a podcast and slowly fall in love through their love of literature. They start to engage in scandalous activities but then they break up because the Wheel of Time sucks.
The idea of a classic is hard for me. I know LOTR is an all time classic, but when I started to read Fellowship, I was very bored and taken back by the prose. I’m used to Brando Sando, John Gwynne, M.L. Wang, Abercrombie, etc. Such a drastic change in style that it is hard for me to get into. Yet, I feel like I need to push myself through it, because of how significant it is. I had the same problem when I tried reading Peter Pan.
That's understandable. I read many old books at a young age ( my dad read us LOTR when I was 8), so I don't have any trouble with it, but if I consciously consider it I do have different expectations about the writing style, vocabulary, culture, tropes etc that I bring to older books that I don't have for newer ones. It's like code switching. However, if you expose yourself to those kinds of books enough you will eventually get the hang of it. Makes me think of when I watched anime for the first time! There are so many weird visual shorthands, stock characters and tropes, and aspects of Japanese culture that show up in anime that were virtually incomprehensible to me at first- now I barely notice them, lol!
the classics weren't meant to teach a hollywood movie plot to make you feel empowered or excited, they were to hopefully talk to you about the human conditions and why we're actually crazy
Some of my favourite books were written in the 1800s so no I don’t think classics are inherently boring. I hated Gatsby so much when I read it for the first time last year, maybe if I’d have studied it in school I’d have loved it but who knows. I’m also an advocate for keeping Shakespeare in schools, love me some Shakespeare! I hope one day kids doing English lit degrees will study The Way of Kings because I truly believe that has the potential for amazing analysis. Hoover dam
I think Malazan could earn that status if it got the incidental type of boost that LotR got. Soldiers reading. Politicians vouching for it. Being a household name. I know it makes me sound like a Malazan slopper, but hear me out. I'm coming at it from the type of philosophical writing and expressive style Malazan is. It's a Post-modern view of looking at fantasy, and I think we as a civilization moving into the post-post modern world, this will be appreciated and thought about.
Well, Raimi's Spider-Man was gonna catch a helicopter by putting a web between the Twin Towers, then the thing happened and they had to remove it. Also the X-Files spinoff Lone Gunmen had an episode where the government faked a plane crash into the twin towers a year before the thing happened.
Hover dam! I think classics are ultimately desided by what is studied in schools. Many classics would not be read today, if they weren’t taught in class. And I think the books that should be taught are those, which are hard to understand or which people are unlikely to read/finish on their own. Harry Potter is easy to read, easy to understand, you don’t need to study it at school extensively, students can do it on their own. Shakespear though? Or something more obscure, long and kinda boring novels from 18th century? I think that makes for a good classroom book, but only if a teacher is able to explain and provide guidence to the students. I’m from russia, and here War and Peace is studied in school, and I think that’s great. How it is taught is not always great, but it is a great fit - little to no modern audience would be willing to read 1400 page historical fiction about napoleonic wars, which has a lot of thematic depth that you get on your own only on third read-through. Classics is something that you need to study to understand how good it is. Because at some point, I believe, its difficult yo make something more complex and brilliant without loosing some audience. And also another purpose of these complex, classical books is in some way to be an instruction manual to popular authors. “This is how you make a book.” I can’t back it up, but I would bet that the best popular authors take a lot of inspiration from classical works.
Interesting definition, can see what you mean by that. Would you say some comedy films/less ‘studyable’ works can still be classics? Things that wouldn’t need in-depth interpretation?
I think a lot of modern books are boring. Simple language, simple characters, too much action. It's like getting a bag of potato chips when you really want a full meal. Both have their place, sure. (Especially after a long day at work, do you really want to go home and delve into Paradise Lost?) But more and more, I find myself reaching for the classics, because they have more substance, and so are not boring to me.
Not sure why people are saying Hoover Dam as I haven’t watched the video yet but Hoover Dam😂 also, not all classics for sure are boring. Some are super entertaining but I think we as readers judge too harshly at times with the boredom comments. Sometimes, when you’re use to a contemporary style, reading a classic that’s a different writing style and what not can def be weird. I think there’s a bit of value in boredom for what it’s worth.
A Song of Ice and Fire is my favorite series, but I agree it won’t be a classic that is highly read by future generations. Two reasons: 1) The next generation will grow up having heard for years how bad the end of the TV show was 2) The series will never be finished Both of those things will make kids born today very hesitant to start reading ASOIAF 20+ years from now. It won’t be generational not because the story won’t hold up, but because people won’t even be trying it
Bro, Hunger Games… Parable of the Sower and its sequel literally started a religion. It’s already studied at universities for a serious reason with all Octavia Butler books. So let’s just drop Hunger Games. Discworld also is rewarded for its impact in English literature not Harry Potter… by the Queen of UK (RIP). So let’s think a bit outside our preferences and hype lists or such. Think about how schools work. Why they choose a book. Especially outside USA because it’s not really the source where we decide what’s a classic alone.
I know it's not the point of the video, but there must be some classics that are considered as such for the wrong reasons. When Richard said, 'it's a classic for a reason,' I thought, 'but is it for the right reason?' I'm a Visual Arts teacher, and everyone can recognize that the 'Mona Lisa' is a classic in art for the wrong reasons: it's just an average painting for the time it was painted, and the story around it is what made it famous, not that it's perfect or even superior to other paintings. So, I think classic books are classics for a reason, but are they for the right reasons? If a book teaches children the values of being a good American citizen and then is analyzed in schools as a masterpiece, is it a classic for the right reason? Just asking myself. Great video as always!
I think Classic novels are fantastic windows into their time periods, but that's not to say that they can't have relevence today, or they can't be enjoyable today. To Kill A Mockingbird is a classic, but it's an absolutely amazing novel, both to study and for enjoyment. It does the coming of age trope better than 99% of everything else. Then you have something like 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea which is one of the most boring things I've ever read lol. Read it twice, and I hated it both times. I'm sure it has value, but man I don't get it. I was also wondering if you could do me a solid. I'm not sure how much you watch of Talking Story, but they have a debate over something called The Tingle, which John says you receive when subscribing and watching. His sin Jakob says that it's not real. Jakob once said that he wants a peer-reviewed analysis on it. So, I'm going around asking their peers, other BookTubers, two things, and I will ask you the same: 1. Is the Tingle real? 2. If yes, could you let me know so that I can use your authority to help sway Jakob? P.S. I'm planning to join your Patreon later in the year. Probably sometime in November and December. I'm pretty sure Wera has said that she's going to show up as soon as I join lol
I dont know if I can comment on a matter so serious. The tingle isnt something that can be disected in a small UA-cam comment. I will plead the fifth out of fear
I try to read a lot of classics, even if I find some of them boring. I've got a good attention span and like slow moving literature. Its usually the main characters. I was rooting for the whale in Moby Dick (not the mc, I am aware), and I loved Monte Christo. Some modern classics (the penguin modern classics edition are so satisfying) are the same 😂 if I dont vibe with the characters, it can be modern or as old as The Odyssey - I'll simply find it boring (loved the Illiad tho). Also I know you guys joke about the US centric view, but Japanese classics are great ❤ I especially love the era when literature became a thing for the general population (11th century) or around 1600s - there was a lot of jokey material, much like Shakespeare. (I've studied Japanese in uni and literature was my favourite ❤ anyway Hooverdam. I didnt see the way of kings ep, so idk about the cabbages 😂😂)
I disagree with the notion that books/movies produced at their time are understood and well received by people of their time. 2001 and Moby Dick were both poorly received on release and only appreciated later. Quite a few classics are ahead of their time. They are of closer quality to what is released today (as far as you can objectify the insight and enjoyment you can get from any sort of art)
Yes, this episode was a bit chaotic, but definitely not boring. Just like you mentioned, I actually divide classics in two categories for my private use: 1) Blast from the past These are books from hundreds or even thousands years ago. Think titles like Decameron, Divine Comedy, Iliad, Gilgamesh. I like to read them once in a while, not nececarily for the reading experience itself, but because they are kind of a time vehicle. They allow me to make a connection with the past and to rediscover, time and time again, that the people who lived hundreds and even thousands years ago were pretty much the same as us, even though the the world was completely different. 2) Classic from the Polish class These are either some poems or maybe plays from the romanticism era, which I'm usually fine with, or a boring total crap from 100-150 years ago. And the latter ones, with a few exceptions, belong straight in a garbage. And I'm serious about it - I trully believe that these books are bad, they have very little value for contemporary readers and they woud have been forgotten, but the education system doesn't want to let them go. Cause the main gatekeeper for the classic status, in my opinion, are not the people, but the academia.
I think people nowadays just don’t have the patience for classics. Many books that are published nowadays are very surface level and spelled out for the reader. Same goes with many of the films that are released today. So much exposition and telling the viewer what to think. Rather than have the viewer dig through the mystery and come up with their own conclusions. And that’s why I LOVE Wheel of Time. So many questions. Characters left in the dark. Information is manipulated or lost in translation. And you as the reader are left with more questions. But when you get answers or nuances, it makes this journey well worth it! I’ve finished book 11 for the first time. I’ll be diving into the last 3 sooner or later. Just don’t want this journey to end. Missed when y’all discussed WoT 😭
NO WAY. The Count of Monte Cristo is one of the best books ever written and it is a classic book.
Count of Monte Cristo is arguably the greatest book OAT and that came out in 1844-1846. It holds up so so well.
Ítalo Calvino wrote that a classic is a book that didn't stop saying what it has to say. That is, its content is still relevant, the world changes and even so we can read it and its still important. I'm a literature teacher and read A LOT of Fantasy and SciFi books, and for me Literature is everything that is in my library. No distinctions.
Per Harold Bloom, if you want novelty, read the classics.
The big difference between something like ACOTAR and War & Peace or Great Gatsby is entertainment. ACOTAR is a great series because it entertains and really draws the reader into the world, i.e. escapism. Classic books or great literature can be entertaining but that is not their primary draw. They deal with perennial questions and how the current age wrestles or struggles with them through characters that are unique and feel real like someone we know and are not carbon copies that can be found 10x over in other books.
Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment, Captain Ahab in Moby Dick, King Lear, Macbeth, Odysseus, Ivan Karamazov in TBK or Gatsby himself are titans of characters that are timeless and speak to the soul of the human condition. In other words you're not reading just to be entertained, it is an aspect of classic literature yes but you reading for wisdom about what it means to be human in a fallen world. Flannery O'Connor sums it up perfectly in this famous quote of hers:
"I'm always irritated by people who imply that [reading] fiction is an escape from reality. It is a plunge into reality and it's very shocking to the system.”
This reminds me of the chat Rich and I had where we were looking at “art vs entertainment” and how some works make you reflect, while others are a ‘distraction’ and maybe there’s a whole nother video to discuss on that - thanks for the thoughts!
If you have never read the Count of Monte Cristo then you can’t say classics are boring because Count of Monte Cristo is phenomenal!!!
AND THAT IS A FACT!
The translation I read was quite boring, but I hope to read a good one at some point.
I hope they read and review it 🙏
We will have to read it!
@@2ToRamble you absolutely do have to!
Loved the analysis of what constitutes a classic. I definitely think anything in the 80's, or earlier, is 'classics' territory, so that would include Lonesome Dove. I'm really liking your recent deep dives into different reading topics.
Personally, many off my all-time favorite books are classics. So no, they most definitely are not outright boring, by any means. In fact, I find many of them to be better written, deeper, and have more nuance than most modern books. Of course, this is just generally speaking.
That being said, there are many classics that surpass anything I've read in recent decades. Books like To Kill a Mockingbird, East of Eden, The Brothers Karamazov, Lonesome Dove, 1984, The Lord of the Rings and Shogun all sit in my personal top 10 list, and that's while 90%+ books I've read are actually modern.
I have yet to read The Great Gatsby, though, so that one could end up making the list. Same goes for Les Miserables, which is supposed to be incredible.
What truly makes a classic is it's longevity, how we can still find relevance to its themes in our own lives. One of the best examples is Tom sawyer. He lived is a world without telegraphs or telephones almost 200 years ago, a time hard to relate to, but you can still relate to the kid: he wants to skip school and hang with Huck Finn, the cool older kid who's also the town outcast, and they go on adventures together. Kids 200 years from now will still relate to Tom
no.
... gonna watch the episode now :)
Hoover Dam, you should read the count of monte christo, the timeless classic revenge story that all revenge stories borrow from.
You guys' take on bird species names has me cracking up in my office lmao
1:43 ok but blood red rhododendrons in Rebecca ate
In my experience, reading The Great Gatsby, 1984, and Of Mice & Men my freshman year of high school (2009-2010) immediately changed the way I felt about reading! It was the first time I was flying through books that weren’t Harry Potter or Twilight 😅
Hoover dam. And cup of coffee ☕️ for Rich.
Here over the pond in the UK we get taught Shakespeare and Dickens which I think you can say are definitely classics. Luckily my English teacher was a bit of rebel and she actually taught us more sci-fi like Day of the Triffids. But my sons did Bill S and Charlie D.
As I didn’t read many classics in school I’m trying to read at least one every year in between SFF goodness. I’ve read Emma and The Count of Monte Cristo in the last couple of years. I have the Iliad and Shogun on my Kindle for when I feel ready for them. I think Mr Sanderson may take priority at the end of the year though 😂
Hoover Dam!! aSoIaF for sure gonna be a classic me thinks. Had to throw in some Shakespeare.
I very much enjoyed this discussion. And the Hoover Dam has a fascinating history!
To answer the title, no, they are not boring, though some can be. I've been reading Tolstoy lately, War & Peace and Sevastopol done and I'm on Anna Karenina, and I find myself reacting the the text more often than with modern books. By reacting I mean laughing, or gasping in horror, some physical reaction to what I read.
He does the best job I've seen of making you like or dislike a character through their own thoughts, often with only a single line, and sometimes biting down to deep feelings that people never express, like a mother's deep, undeniable jealousy at the happiness of her own daughter's first love, or a father who knows which of his five children is his favorite, and tries not to show it to the others (but fails, and the other children can tell daddy loves them least.)
There's a great scene in War & Peace during the Battle of Austerlitz where one of the main characters (for the first half), Nikolai Rostov, charges into battle and for the first time is being shot at, and his reaction is to wonder "They're shooting at me? They're shooting at me! I, who am loved by all! How can they shoot at me?" I love how Tolstoy can make a character loveably or hateable neurotic or narcissistic by showing us just one of their thoughts. Near the beginning of Anna Karenina, a character, Vronsky, sees Anna talking to her brother off in the distance, and becomes "provoked" at the thought that the are actually talking about a subject that is not himself.
I feel like modern writing of often very simplified and commercialized for a large audience. This makes the writing forgettable. I'd heard Robert Greene talk about his writing process, and how he likes to use more unconventional language, both because it's better at getting his point across and it tends to age better. And he's right. Imagine if Lord of the Rings were written in modern simple English like The Way of Kings or Fourth Wing. It wouldn't be nearly as memorable or well regarded as it is.
Having said all that, some classic books and authors I found insufferable. Anything by Hawthorne is a chore, I hate nate. For my hot take, I absolutely cannot stand Jane Eyre - this is a book that would never be published today. Anywhere that 25 syllables would suffice to describe something with some poetic leave, Chartlotte Bronte uses 150 syllables. Every single sentence is overwritten to the point of being as long and annoying to read as they could possibly be.
Tl;dr depends on the classic book. Some of them aged well. Some feel like they are a chore that are owed your time.
Edit; Oh, and HOOVER DAM. No it wasn't boring - but I did learn that a channel aimed at modern fantasy readers isn't best positioned to evaluate work about family and society in the 1950s or 1800s.
As someone who loved war and peace and was bored to death with Jane eyre. I feel so seen and validated by your comment
Just wanted to let you guys know that you've played a huge role in my return to reading ❤ Since I've found your channel & a few others 2 months ago I've completed 5 books (2 of which being TWOK & WOR 😅), and I'm currently halfway through Oathbringer & The Will Of The Many!
Never stop doing what you're doing, the content is amazing. One question though, do either of you have any interest in reading Manga? If so, I would highly recommend Vinland Saga!
Also, Hoover Dam 😏
Thanks so much, an honor that we were a part of your reading journey! (Honor isnt dead) - I know Rich has read Mangas but I havent. I dont have any interest at the moment, but if I eventually get there Ill keep this in mind thankya 🫡
I believe that one of the reasons some people say classic books are boring is because they don't have the attention span, nor the patience to enjoy a book that takes it's time. They need nonstop action in order to enjoy books while they totally ignore the messages and themes.
agreed
I think a lot of has to do with how we're introduced to them. Being required to read specific ones, often at a breakneck speed that doesn't really allow time to think about the themes and messages, at too young an age.
I know I had to read roughly 40 pages a night of Great Expectations at age 13, on top of all my other homework. It was a horrible experience, and I have no idea if it's actually a good book.
Imagine only having read 10-15 modern books, being told by someone else which ones and how fast you had to read them. You might then say modern books are all boring.
@@katherinep1010 My experience exactly at age 14. I enjoyed the novel so much as a 40 year old. It was a completely different experience.
@@katherinep1010 I was an avid reader from a young age, and I had a great teacher or two, so I didn't mind the assignments, lol. But I agree with you. I definitely think classics should be introduced to younger/newer readers, but I wish more care would be taken when doing so.
100%
Most readers today would not like Lord of the Rings.
I love classic novels and I love classic movies. I think the key to enjoying them is the expectations you set prior to starting them. I like Dickens but I don't ever expect conciseness when I read him. The meandering nature is part of the appeal
Oh man soooo many things I wanted to say and add to this and that is what makes a great discussion! Thanks!
Wouldve been awesome, might have to do this topic again!
Hover dam!
Cabbage 🥬
Stormlight will be a classic
The way Rich described feeling when watching that movie (struggling while watching and only being able to fully appreciate it in hindsight) is how I most often feel when reading classics tbh. I have no shame in admitting that I read more for enjoyment than any intellectual purposes, so sometimes the higher effort required to read classics just frustrates me. Or maybe I am a bit of a lazy reader, also totally possible lol.
Also, I kinda agree with Rich that ASOIAF won't be a classic over time, at least not outside of the fantasy genre. I actually think it is harder for full-on secondary world fantasy books to gain that classic status because they often don't interact with a certain cultural zeitgeist like literary fiction does, you know?
In any case, IF classics are boring then you guys did an exceptional job of making a chat about them fun, so kudos to you 🤣
Appreciate it 😁. And true - LOTR being a classic was able to hit the cultural zeitgeist, we’ll see with time if ASOIAF does the same
I just want to clarify to Austin that pipeweed is tobacco, not weed. It has no significance or influence on hippie culture.
Pan MacMillan published an article stating a classic put simply is merely a book that stands the test of time. Which implies it must be a good book. To say a book is an instant classic isn't really possible. For example, if we use To Kill a Mocking Bird's instant success and compare it to Fourth Wing. Do you think Fourth Wing will be a classic in 50 years? Doubtful.
I would say Dracula is a classic that is anything but boring.
Another great fireside chat with the boys. Hoover damn and whatnot.
🙏
Hoover dam. One of my favorite classics is The Grapes of Wrath, did it for a class and I believe I was the only one who enjoyed the book.
Also, yall should check out Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry. A 92 year old author in Kentucky that writes beautiful poetry and novels. All of his books relate and reflect his life and his setting he lives in: farming!
Jayber is the barber in a small town and the only reason he got the job was because the last one died. I truly think yall or Richard would like it. (Not fantasy) also I don’t know if I sold it but check out Goodreads lol
Hoover dam!
On books stopping being classics, absolutely that happens. Think about how many classic we have that are less than 100 years old (probably more than half the ones you guys mentioned) vs ones that are 400 or 1000 years old.
Good point!
My last book I read was the Great Gatsby and really had no clue what was going on, I felt like I read page after page without remembering what was going on....Except for the last 30 pages..
Read a few classics tho, Enjoyed the Island of DR Moreau, Jane Austins books (not all of them tho), Dracula, Frankenstein (thought that would be way more entertaining), The picture of Dorian Gray (enjoyed that one), 20.000 leagues under the sea...(One of the books that you need to read with dictionary but for a reason)...
Personally whats more interesting for me is the reason why people call each book a classic.
I like to read about Jules Verne and why some of his books are hard to read, why did they wanted to ban The picture of Dorian Gray, How did Jane Austin live? etc....
And yeah this episode was fine, did not make me want to go work in the mines of Mars or jump from the Hoover Dam
The DYNAMIC DUO is back with another upload that boutta be a MEGA HIT
😮💨😮💨
Study of birds is ornithology. A lot of the names are just description turned into name. A woodpecker with a red head is called a red headed woodpecker. Even woodpecker is a bird that pecks at wood to find insects. I love bird names but some of the are… over the top :)
And yes I made it to the end. Hoover dam.
To say classics are boring is lumping up the entire history of literature into a couple books that you didn’t personally connect with. Each generation of writers from cultures throughout history have created works of literature that continue to be relevant throughout the generations. So if you have read a book considered a classic that didn’t interest you, please consider reading from another time period or culture. Not a fan of Pride and Prejudice? Try The Tale of the Heike. The page length of War and Peace troubling you? Pick up the Alexiad. You can easily find them online or on UA-cam as audio for free.
Many classics speak to me on a personal level in a way modern books…….don’t consistently. One I would recommend is Great Expectations. My mom read it to me when I was ten. I hated it and thought it was the most boring thing ever printed. Now it’s in my top ten books of all time and has been hugely influential in my life.
I hope more of our generation gives this enormous collection of stories a chance!
Happy Reading! 📖
Never been so early, looking forward to listening to this at work today 😊!
Hope you enjoyed 😁
Kinda upset yall didnt cover this in the video, but I think you could make a pretty good argument for the Hoover Dam being a classic
Hoover Dam 🫡 Great episode!
Thank you 😁
Another 2toRamble classic!
🤌
SO glad I studied science, most of the lecturers loved their subjects, if not the annoying students.
I will never forget PJ, the lecturer who reinacted India 'racing up the Indian ocean and SLAMING into Asia at a rate of 2cm a year' (or whatever, 2mm a year...)
Many of the older classics are not for everyone, but some of them are really amazing, better than you would believe if you can approach them right.
Coleen Hoover, Like Georgette Heyer and Jilly Cooper before her, will not survive.
I grew up listening to classic books, and I have to say, I personally prefer contemporary fiction nowadays. Not to say old stories can't be interesting, but I also couldn't finish the Brother's Grim collected works, nor have I really wanted to read any classic for the last like ten years (unless you count aSoIaF as a classic). A part of it is that old books seem to have worse narration across the board compared to titles that have been released more recently.
Let's see, I have listened to the Jungle Book, Tolken's collected work (including Sirmarilion), a lot of fairy tales (including about half of the brother's grim unabridged collection), the Chronicles of Narina, Peter Pan in Red, the Little Prince, the Original Shannara Trilogy, Beowulf and Dracula. Of those I only really relistened since becoming an adult is the Brother's Grim's Fariy tales as I had only heard some of the stories, and not unabridged.
Still I do enjoy summaries, condensed versions of classic stories. Like the Iliad, the Odyssey, and Sun Wukong (Journey to the West). Mostly the summaries made by Overly Sarcastic Production's Red. I also enjoy contemporary book series that draw on mythology, and old legends/myths. Like Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson, and the Egyptian and Norse inspired series of his which I think I enjoyed more.
I also occasionally hunt down fairy tales for inspiration. There's a ttRPG called City of Mist which let you make any character you want, and encourages you to base your character on a story. Either a fairy tale, myth, or urban legend among others.
Chilling out at the hoover dam. I haven't read Londsome Dove but I did just finish The Last Picture Show. He has such a way of portraying such realized characters. There was also a lot of weird sex stuff but lets just look past that for now haha.
Love all your vids have currently binged several and have started reading again thanks to you guys.... as well as Carl and donut hahahaha also Hola from Mexico
Hola! And welcome to the channel, Crawler!
@@2ToRamble DAMN jajajaja happy to be here
@@2ToRamblealso hoverdamn
Hoover damn. If you know, you know 🤷♂️
Im currently writing a book called 50 shades of Austin and Richard. It is about two guys who have a podcast and slowly fall in love through their love of literature. They start to engage in scandalous activities but then they break up because the Wheel of Time sucks.
😭
Never heard this new outro dang!!!
This video and lonesome dove saved my marriage!!
00:30:00 intrinsic vs. extrinsic classic?
Good points Hoover damn 🎩
39:30 the people naming birds must have been sexually frustrated, sitting in the trees for 190 straight hours trying to discover a new bird
Lol
The idea of a classic is hard for me. I know LOTR is an all time classic, but when I started to read Fellowship, I was very bored and taken back by the prose. I’m used to Brando Sando, John Gwynne, M.L. Wang, Abercrombie, etc.
Such a drastic change in style that it is hard for me to get into. Yet, I feel like I need to push myself through it, because of how significant it is.
I had the same problem when I tried reading Peter Pan.
That's understandable. I read many old books at a young age ( my dad read us LOTR when I was 8), so I don't have any trouble with it, but if I consciously consider it I do have different expectations about the writing style, vocabulary, culture, tropes etc that I bring to older books that I don't have for newer ones. It's like code switching. However, if you expose yourself to those kinds of books enough you will eventually get the hang of it. Makes me think of when I watched anime for the first time! There are so many weird visual shorthands, stock characters and tropes, and aspects of Japanese culture that show up in anime that were virtually incomprehensible to me at first- now I barely notice them, lol!
the classics weren't meant to teach a hollywood movie plot to make you feel empowered or excited, they were to hopefully talk to you about the human conditions and why we're actually crazy
Did I miss when Austin and Richard talked about This is How You Lose the Time War?? Or is it upcoming?
Loved the vid guys ❤
We have a review on it! Episode #103
Some of my favourite books were written in the 1800s so no I don’t think classics are inherently boring. I hated Gatsby so much when I read it for the first time last year, maybe if I’d have studied it in school I’d have loved it but who knows. I’m also an advocate for keeping Shakespeare in schools, love me some Shakespeare!
I hope one day kids doing English lit degrees will study The Way of Kings because I truly believe that has the potential for amazing analysis.
Hoover dam
I am not sure I would consider the Hoover Dam a classic.
Hoover dam's a true classic
"Let us see why were the curtains blue. It represented his deep inner sadness. And that's why the author k*lled themselves..." 🤣🤣🤣
I think Malazan could earn that status if it got the incidental type of boost that LotR got. Soldiers reading. Politicians vouching for it. Being a household name. I know it makes me sound like a Malazan slopper, but hear me out.
I'm coming at it from the type of philosophical writing and expressive style Malazan is. It's a Post-modern view of looking at fantasy, and I think we as a civilization moving into the post-post modern world, this will be appreciated and thought about.
We havent read enough of this to know - but hey, could be the case
need to see the lonesome dove review
The importance of being earnest is the single worst thing ive ever read LOL
Well, Raimi's Spider-Man was gonna catch a helicopter by putting a web between the Twin Towers, then the thing happened and they had to remove it.
Also the X-Files spinoff Lone Gunmen had an episode where the government faked a plane crash into the twin towers a year before the thing happened.
Hover dam!
I think classics are ultimately desided by what is studied in schools. Many classics would not be read today, if they weren’t taught in class.
And I think the books that should be taught are those, which are hard to understand or which people are unlikely to read/finish on their own. Harry Potter is easy to read, easy to understand, you don’t need to study it at school extensively, students can do it on their own. Shakespear though? Or something more obscure, long and kinda boring novels from 18th century?
I think that makes for a good classroom book, but only if a teacher is able to explain and provide guidence to the students.
I’m from russia, and here War and Peace is studied in school, and I think that’s great. How it is taught is not always great, but it is a great fit - little to no modern audience would be willing to read 1400 page historical fiction about napoleonic wars, which has a lot of thematic depth that you get on your own only on third read-through.
Classics is something that you need to study to understand how good it is. Because at some point, I believe, its difficult yo make something more complex and brilliant without loosing some audience.
And also another purpose of these complex, classical books is in some way to be an instruction manual to popular authors. “This is how you make a book.”
I can’t back it up, but I would bet that the best popular authors take a lot of inspiration from classical works.
Interesting definition, can see what you mean by that. Would you say some comedy films/less ‘studyable’ works can still be classics? Things that wouldn’t need in-depth interpretation?
I read Battle Royal in School.
I can’t believe you basters made it! Been here since day one. Love you guys ❤
❤️
Damn the hoover... close enough
Hoover Dam and Cabbage!!
The Rambley Boys are at it again 😉
🥂
Anyone knows the name of the book they said at 27:20
Piranesi??
@@Fitz-or5jk thanks mate
The Hoover Dam is in no way boring whatsoever. On par in fact with cabbages I dare say.
Two references? I feel like we are now indebted to you
I think a lot of modern books are boring. Simple language, simple characters, too much action. It's like getting a bag of potato chips when you really want a full meal. Both have their place, sure. (Especially after a long day at work, do you really want to go home and delve into Paradise Lost?) But more and more, I find myself reaching for the classics, because they have more substance, and so are not boring to me.
Fair!
I used to think that classics are boring, then I read The count of Montecristo... Now I think modern books are boring 😬
We’ve been recommended this a lot, looks like we’ll have to read it
I agree. Song of Ice and Fire can’t be a classic cause it’ll always be an unfinished series. Edit-Hoover Dam
Not sure why people are saying Hoover Dam as I haven’t watched the video yet but Hoover Dam😂 also, not all classics for sure are boring. Some are super entertaining but I think we as readers judge too harshly at times with the boredom comments. Sometimes, when you’re use to a contemporary style, reading a classic that’s a different writing style and what not can def be weird. I think there’s a bit of value in boredom for what it’s worth.
Well I'll be hoover dam that was good
A Song of Ice and Fire is my favorite series, but I agree it won’t be a classic that is highly read by future generations. Two reasons:
1) The next generation will grow up having heard for years how bad the end of the TV show was
2) The series will never be finished
Both of those things will make kids born today very hesitant to start reading ASOIAF 20+ years from now. It won’t be generational not because the story won’t hold up, but because people won’t even be trying it
Fair enough!
My Cousin Mussolini, talk about a classic!
Absolute classic
2001 was billed to me as Alien, but machine vs man. That was like 10 minutes of the movie 🙄
Hoover Dam 🫡
Bro, Hunger Games… Parable of the Sower and its sequel literally started a religion. It’s already studied at universities for a serious reason with all Octavia Butler books. So let’s just drop Hunger Games.
Discworld also is rewarded for its impact in English literature not Harry Potter… by the Queen of UK (RIP).
So let’s think a bit outside our preferences and hype lists or such. Think about how schools work. Why they choose a book. Especially outside USA because it’s not really the source where we decide what’s a classic alone.
I know it's not the point of the video, but there must be some classics that are considered as such for the wrong reasons. When Richard said, 'it's a classic for a reason,' I thought, 'but is it for the right reason?' I'm a Visual Arts teacher, and everyone can recognize that the 'Mona Lisa' is a classic in art for the wrong reasons: it's just an average painting for the time it was painted, and the story around it is what made it famous, not that it's perfect or even superior to other paintings. So, I think classic books are classics for a reason, but are they for the right reasons? If a book teaches children the values of being a good American citizen and then is analyzed in schools as a masterpiece, is it a classic for the right reason? Just asking myself. Great video as always!
Fantastic questions!
I hate classics. Tried many but was never able to get into them.
I will never forgive Austin for Wheel of time..
Same.😂
Everyones a villain until they live long enough to be a hero…or something like that
I think Classic novels are fantastic windows into their time periods, but that's not to say that they can't have relevence today, or they can't be enjoyable today. To Kill A Mockingbird is a classic, but it's an absolutely amazing novel, both to study and for enjoyment. It does the coming of age trope better than 99% of everything else. Then you have something like 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea which is one of the most boring things I've ever read lol. Read it twice, and I hated it both times. I'm sure it has value, but man I don't get it.
I was also wondering if you could do me a solid. I'm not sure how much you watch of Talking Story, but they have a debate over something called The Tingle, which John says you receive when subscribing and watching. His sin Jakob says that it's not real. Jakob once said that he wants a peer-reviewed analysis on it. So, I'm going around asking their peers, other BookTubers, two things, and I will ask you the same:
1. Is the Tingle real?
2. If yes, could you let me know so that I can use your authority to help sway Jakob?
P.S. I'm planning to join your Patreon later in the year. Probably sometime in November and December. I'm pretty sure Wera has said that she's going to show up as soon as I join lol
I dont know if I can comment on a matter so serious. The tingle isnt something that can be disected in a small UA-cam comment. I will plead the fifth out of fear
@@2ToRamble That's not helpful, Austin lol. Ask Richard, he's decisive.
Count of monte cristo book club when?
👀👀
Haven’t watched this yet but my answer would be no haha
I try to read a lot of classics, even if I find some of them boring. I've got a good attention span and like slow moving literature.
Its usually the main characters. I was rooting for the whale in Moby Dick (not the mc, I am aware), and I loved Monte Christo.
Some modern classics (the penguin modern classics edition are so satisfying) are the same 😂 if I dont vibe with the characters, it can be modern or as old as The Odyssey - I'll simply find it boring (loved the Illiad tho).
Also I know you guys joke about the US centric view, but Japanese classics are great ❤ I especially love the era when literature became a thing for the general population (11th century) or around 1600s - there was a lot of jokey material, much like Shakespeare.
(I've studied Japanese in uni and literature was my favourite ❤ anyway Hooverdam. I didnt see the way of kings ep, so idk about the cabbages 😂😂)
😁😂
Hoover Dam
Not all of them, no. The same with contemporary books, some are good, some are awful.
Hoover Dam 😁
Hoover Damn
Hoover dam
hoover dam
Democracy is cringe is classic 🫵
Old things always = bad
Richard would love this declarative statement 🤌
I disagree with the notion that books/movies produced at their time are understood and well received by people of their time. 2001 and Moby Dick were both poorly received on release and only appreciated later. Quite a few classics are ahead of their time. They are of closer quality to what is released today (as far as you can objectify the insight and enjoyment you can get from any sort of art)
Good video enjoyed it
Thank you!
Do you think that Lions of Al-Rassan will become a classic? Because for me it reads like Russian classics.
Honestly can see it being a classic - it’s incredible
lol so does this make percy jackson a classic I heard it’s being taught in schools 😂
As a Percy Jackson fan, I (Austin) fully accept this lol
HOOVER DAMN!
Yes, this episode was a bit chaotic, but definitely not boring. Just like you mentioned, I actually divide classics in two categories for my private use:
1) Blast from the past
These are books from hundreds or even thousands years ago. Think titles like Decameron, Divine Comedy, Iliad, Gilgamesh. I like to read them once in a while, not nececarily for the reading experience itself, but because they are kind of a time vehicle. They allow me to make a connection with the past and to rediscover, time and time again, that the people who lived hundreds and even thousands years ago were pretty much the same as us, even though the the world was completely different.
2) Classic from the Polish class
These are either some poems or maybe plays from the romanticism era, which I'm usually fine with, or a boring total crap from 100-150 years ago. And the latter ones, with a few exceptions, belong straight in a garbage. And I'm serious about it - I trully believe that these books are bad, they have very little value for contemporary readers and they woud have been forgotten, but the education system doesn't want to let them go. Cause the main gatekeeper for the classic status, in my opinion, are not the people, but the academia.
The gatekeepers being the public has Richard in shambles
I think people nowadays just don’t have the patience for classics. Many books that are published nowadays are very surface level and spelled out for the reader. Same goes with many of the films that are released today. So much exposition and telling the viewer what to think. Rather than have the viewer dig through the mystery and come up with their own conclusions.
And that’s why I LOVE Wheel of Time. So many questions. Characters left in the dark. Information is manipulated or lost in translation. And you as the reader are left with more questions. But when you get answers or nuances, it makes this journey well worth it!
I’ve finished book 11 for the first time. I’ll be diving into the last 3 sooner or later. Just don’t want this journey to end.
Missed when y’all discussed WoT 😭
Oo Im sure Rich can atest that the end will blow you away
Spoilers!
😊
Navy* Propaganda