Big kudos for the price discussion. In my opinion, most tech reviewers give pricing too little importance because they receive the products for free. Once you pay the full price your expectations increase.
The cinematography of this... Is Amazing. I would appreciate a behind the scenes of the making this video as much as I appreciate your review. There is a reason why you're the Gold Standard of Coffee Experts that people are drawn to and your artistry in presentation is one of the many reasons you remain at the top.
First off, I was shocked to see my video referenced by the grandaddy of coffee himself, what an honour. Also, we're all excited to see this review. I was debating about getting an additional WDT tool but have been getting good consistent shots with just the magic tumbler + wiper, this confirms it for me, no need for me to add 1 more tool and step to my workflow for a marginal improvement.
Jess I thought your review was really great, and you deserve a lot of credit for going about it first, and independently, without the bias from other pro reviewers. Great work. The community is richer for it.
I thought your review was great! I appreciated how quickly you got it out too, there wasn’t much information out in the wild when deliveries started, so it was good to see yours there so early on.
Hey James! Thank you for sharing my review in the description. I’m humbled & grateful! I agree with everything you shared and truthfully this is a grinder that I have a love hate relationship with. While ultimately it makes delicious coffee in a compact beautiful package I, like you, haven’t had issues with alignment. But I do feel for those who have. I purchased this out of pocket and I was left wondering if my money was well spent because of its workflow quirks. I decided that it was based on the overall grinder experience alone. But I’d understand why others wouldn’t agree. I’m excited to continue to research variable RPM and it’s impact on uniformity and taste. Thanks for sharing! 😃
I am curious to hear from you, Kyle, regarding the variable RPM to taste effects! Keep having fun with your gear and subsequent reviews! Currently waiting on my Key. And I am a bit tired of the negativity and drama, mostly coming from one particular reviewer, regarding this grinder.
@@veganpotterthevegan yep. It's yet another bogus snake oil claim from Weber. Like "pre-seasoned" and then coated burrs?? I also find it questionable to have such a long drive shaft. Though Weber seems reluctant to improve and iterate on their designs and instead keep the same faulty design from the HG-1. They couldn't even fix the grind adjustment to thread the opposite direction. It makes you wonder why there was a need to do Kickstarter if they're reusing design (and tooling?) from previous work.
It’s been interesting to see other’s experiences with the Key, and I was definitely curious to hear what you had to say. It would appear you’ve had a much more positive experience than I on every level. This further makes me sure there was something significantly wrong with my grinder and when in tandem with Weber’s abysmal (to say the least) customer service I found myself wanting it off my counter. Of course everyone who backed it took a risk (my first and last backing on coffee gear) and I felt like it was a calculated risk, but a risk nonetheless. That risk wasn’t worth it for me, and resulted in a lot frustration, buyer’s remorse, and subsequently drama. Like you said no one can tell those in the market for a grinder in this price range if it’s worth the cash, but I applaud you for sharing links to a broad spectrum of reviews for a fuller picture.
Yes, super impressive videography in the first few seconds! It makes me wonder how involvement @James Hoffmann has in the videography these days (especially given his recent ‘Deep Dive’ interview). Is this how far his videography has come? Or is he working with a skilled team? Or a mix of both? Either way its amazing stuff and we’re lucky to have such content available on UA-cam for consumption worldwide…
I'm sure James would have credited an editor. He has talked about taking courses in video editing, he's been making videos for years, and he's a man of good taste, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's behind the editing.
If you want to test the center shaft alignment as it grinds, you could use a machinist's center dial indicator to see if the shaft strays from the center.
for sure - though just keep in mind that if there is a finish on the shaft, or if it was chromed, for example, irregularities in that would get picked up on the dial indicator.
I did exactly this, like above, the finish on the shaft does throw out the measurement. To achieve an accurate measurement you need to remove the lower burr and get a reading from the end of the shaft, mine was perfect.
However, that doesn't tell you if the cone burr is concentric with the shaft. If Mazzer's (burr manufacturer) and Weber's tolerances add up the wrong way, then you're stuck unless you have the machine tools to fix the issue.
I just got one of these (Weber Key) and thought I would post my initial impressions. First off, there is some assembly required. James doesn't mention this, perhaps he was furnished with a grinder which was already fully assembled and calibrated. The magic tumbler installation is sadly non-trivial. You have to lay the grinder on its side and use a hex key to remove a screw and a plastic axle cap, then replace the axle cap with a washer and the stirring device for the magic number. This sounds trivial but in practice the screw is cranked on so tight that it is necessary to perform the "last resort method" described in the user guide which consists of removing the gearbox cover so you can put something through a hole in the axle to prevent the axle from spinning while you loosen the bolt/screw with the hex key. And when you remove the bolt/screw, the inner burr is free to fall out should you turn the grinder right side up again for any reason. If this happens, be aware there is a tiny piece of steel called a key which may fall out. This happened to me and I didn't notice at first. I found it on the floor later. This tiny piece of steel sits partly in a groove on one side of the axle and partly in a corresponding groove on the inside of the inner burr. Getting this piece back in place in the correct orientation and reinstalling the lower burr is tricky, especially if you have big hands. Without this "key" in place the inner burr is free to spin around the axle rendering any attempted calibration or grind adjustments useless. Also, if you tighten the screw too much after installing the magic tumbler you won't be able to turn the burr mount at all to back it off the required 1 3/4 turns from the zero (burr contact) point. Anyway, after an email exchange with support I finally got the grinder assembled properly and was able to successfully calibrate it. I feel the grinder should come already assembled with the tumbler option one ordered. The customer should not have to go through this hassle.
Wow dude. I just cannot express how ridiculous I find these high end grinders. For $2k it should come with a complimentary evening with a prostitute, let alone not be a user nightmare to do a CLEARLY INTENDED PROCEDURE. I feel like James isn't nearly harsh enough sometimes. When I pay an insane amount of money for something, I want it to be absolutely flawless and last forever. A friend of mine bought a high-end pocket knife, the thing had a lifetime warranty for literally any and all damage, and you could even send it back to them to be sharpened at no additional cost. That's what I'm expecting from a $2k grinder, not building a piece of Ikea furniture from hell
Just received my KEY. Proud owner of HG1, loved it, and saw this motorized version, jumped on the deal last year April. Promised to receive it last year October, but got postponed, and I just got it today. Compared it to my HG1, very similar. Compared to my Niche Zero, which I used previously when I had parties around, because it's not easy to grind manually, it's just like my HG1, it's so much cleaner, less residual grinds (fine powders), and the extraction was a lot smoother. Previously, I had to counter it by using under puck filters when I was using my Niche, but on this, with or without under puck filters perform very similarly, only affects less than 0.1-0.2% EY, unlike Niche Zero, can go up to 2% EY when using under puck filters. This one grinder can make me retire both my Niche Zero and HG1, and free up so much counter space. This alone is worth more than what I paid for. Anyway, I'll be removing the paper clip, and doing WDT anyway.
Seeing this, and its price, makes me appreciate just what a good deal my Kopi Deva was. Those two grinders aren't a million miles apart in terms of philosophy, but the Kopi was a fraction of the cost and, to my mind, benefits from way better ergonomics.
Thanks for the great review. I've had this grinder now for two weeks and here's my two cents. I live in NYC and like all residents of this metropolis, counter space is at a premium. I use an Olympia Cremina for my espresso and I was looking for a grinder that had an equally small footprint, if not smaller. I also wanted a grinder that could grind any bean with some sort of exacting marker system. My old grinder was the Olympia Moca grinder and I found the setting indicator to be very frustrating. I couldn't switch beans and then switch back and just go right to the previous setting easily. It was always a search. Also, the Moca grinder never seem to grind fine enough, even with me taking it apart and making a finer adjustment. I find the Key can grind anything and switching back to a previous bean super easy to do. Overall, I am super happy with this grinder. I feel it to be a huge step-up from the Moca. I will say, even though it's suppose to be "preseasoned" I find that to not be the case. The first shots I pulled on this, even with the correct grind, were not great but each shot is getting better and better. After just two weeks I find I'm making great espresso. That all being said is it worth 2K? No Idea. I, like you got it for the preorder price. Also, the Cremina has a 49mm basket and I find this grinder with the standard tumbler is fantastic.
Hey Rod, if you end up hating the Key for whatever reason in the long run and end up selling it, I do highly recommend the Niche for the following reasons: I like you live in a smaller space and can confirm that the Niche is low profile; the Niche is also an upstart and so you would be supporting a smaller player; the Niche is much better value than the Key. And maybe subjectively here I personally believe the Niche offers better workflow and design esthetic than the Key. Note I do not have any commercial/business interest in Niche or it's products just a fellow coffee enthusiast sharing an opinion.
@@canucklostintheusa5306 just note the Niche will give more texture, less clarity than the KEY, and a flat burr will give more clarity less texture than the KEY.
This review is as objective as one could make, especially after all the controversies happened around this product. Well done! (The intro is really awesome btw)
Thanks for the detailed review, James. The intro editing was truly next-level, and is setting a new bar for the rest of the coffee world. I think you picked up on a a few points that we tend to agree with internally, in particular the part about the stainless dosing cup. That and the RDT spray bottle are the “off the shelf” items we just buy in bulk and include for convenience, with the workflow really intended for use with our own Bean Cellars (over half of customers purchase them together as an add-on accessory). We will be adding our suggested workflow for espresso to our UA-cam channel (we currently have in there for the EG-1), including the use of EPFs (espresso paper filters) that we just announced last week. Overall a very fair and honest review, and we’re always happy to hear your feedback. While production speed has been incredibly affected by the pandemic, we’re not letting that affect output quality. In the end this was a crowdfunded project, different from our usual mode of operation, and we are extremely grateful for all those who backed it and helped make it a reality. Our team has experience designing and producing very large volume products (iPod, iPhone, Google phones, etc.), so this bridges the gap for us from low-volume boutique items and super high volume electronics. Lastly, we will of course extend your product warranty to whichever of your Patreons wins the KEY =)
What i love about my niche (appart from the grind quality), is the workflow, so pleasant. I feel that even pouring beans in this weber seems tedious, avoiding the big metal bar and not spilling beans, , adjusting grind setting to, the lid that you had to remove and coffe ground poping and making a mess, workflow seems finicky. I love the magnet base tho
I've only watched 21 seconds but need to express my appreciation for the cinematography. James' content has always been useful and entertaining, but it's becoming increasingly beautiful too ❤
That means all fluff no substance. Markass Brownie isn't a proper tech reviewer, he's a videographer with interest in tech at best. That's like spitting in the face of James lol.
Every grinder review - feat. Niche Zero grinder! Another epic review, thank you, James! You made my trip back to the office so much better this morning!
@@scottleggejr to be fair, the Niche has been doing a lot better on this front lately. I'm on their mailing list and they've been having new batches of pre-orders every month lately (a frustration for me, who is still saving up the cash for mine). It's still a two-month delay between ordering and shipping the grinder, but the offerings have been getting more and more frequently this year.
I finally bit the bullet and bought a Niche Zero for myself at the end of last year. Not only did it arrive much faster than I anticipated, but the price has been stable for some time (~$550 USD). The improvements to this machine since the first run of them were noticeable and appreciated. They did listen to their customers, and that feels really good. The dosing cup feels heavier and of higher quality. It no longer has that ridge on the inside for grounds to get stuck, and the interior bottom is parabolic. They have the anti-popcorning disc standard in the grinders, now, but they're still removable. The overall feel of the grinder feels a little "tighter" than the first versions, though that could also be because the V1 I've been using has been trucking for over two years, now in a cafe setting, where it sees intermittent back-to-back use on a daily basis. As such, I feel like not only did Niche just nail it out of the gate with a reasonably priced grinder in terms of usability, footprint, and ergonomics, the longevity is apparent, even with the early models. Weber makes beautiful machines, for sure, but I'll sacrifice the gorgeous brushed metal and sleekness for the FAR more affordable (for me) option that does everything I want and need without the things I know would annoy me (like the grind adjustment ring).
Niche is a very nice grinder, You lose out on the RPM control and extra flavour clarity on those larger 83mm mazzer burrs in the KEY, but for the price difference, that may not matter so much.
Ah James, these videos are how dreams are made. I have found that as soon as I discovered you my coffee game shifted immensely, and my desire to seek out an affordable way to make an amazing cup of joe has taken on a very thoughtful path. But then I get sucked into the next level just above where I am that keeps me wondering, how far do I need to go, or want to go, or can afford to go and these reviews help me to make that decision clearly because I feel I can trust in your opinions, and I haven’t been let down. Because of you I have my Niche and I haven’t been happier or ever tempted to up my game. And even though I have what I love and don’t see myself wanting another grinder I still love watching these videos, with their production values, and awesome detailed reviews. Thank you.
Why did you have to post this?!?!?! For the whole second half of this video I've been thinking, "I really want a Niche, but I really shouldn't spend more money on coffee stuff"
@@segamble1679 haahahhaa! I’m sorry. But seriously, I haven’t been happier with the Niche. I’m by far no expert but I really think it is a great balance for any style of coffee you want. I kept seeing one grinder being better then another at one thing or another but so far owning my niche has now made it hard for me to want to buy coffee out! Seriously, I’m just like, naaaa, pass, I’ll make my own. And the flavor profiles are so dramatically better that I find it’s even hard for me to want to put any milk products in my cups now. It’s crazy. SORRY
Waiting for my unit as well. I think at this price range and with the long pre-order time, it’s normal to have high expectation. After seeing few reviews, I’m just hoping it won’t be a disappointment. Thank you for a very thorough review as usual.
Great review, thank you! My Key has gotten a LOT better the more beans I've used. I'd recommend sticking to pour over for like 5 lbs first, then trying espresso. The burrs felt dull when new and after a few pounds, they feel sharp. I have the same problem with beans getting stuck in the funnel when using RDT and hiding under the lid, so I agree it's better not to use it. One of my favorite features is how easy it is to clean the burrs vs many other grinders while keeping your exact setting (my Forte BG is easier, my Niche is harder). For removing the installing the burrs, I use a 4nm bicycle Torqkeys torque tool and a cut rubber exercise band to hold the shaft. Always the same preload, never worry about slipping during grinding.
The seasoning idea is awesome advice for any new grinder! I bought discard beans which are totally fine, but didn't make the cut at the roaster. They ask me what I got next when I back my truck in now lol.
Good point on ease of access to the burrs for cleaning; this is a major point that a lot of reviewers (and the armchair critics) seem to have somehow missed. There are some inherent design compromises to allow this, and of course it is also the only reason some folks have panicked that their burrs are misaligned (in all likelihood they are better aligned than any grinder you've ever owned, you've just never been able to see them clearly in operation before).
I need my grinder to be here. Ordered on 04/07/2021, and still waiting to be shipped. Thank your for addressing the scaling issue, I think the frustration a lot of early backers have is the delay in shipping, pandemic and all….
Ah yes, here I am, with my 160 pound feldgrind for daily use for making aeropress in my small oneroom appartment, watching a review of a $2000 product I will never ever buy. Great review as always
I even watch most of the videos, while using either instant coffee or a hand grinder from my Grandma from the 70s with a plastic Melitta filter. Just like his enthusiasm and sometimes I learn a bit 😊
@@Ufbwgeufjdo I completely agree with that, Starbucks is expensive trash compared to the coffee I make at home with a total of $100 worth of equipment. It makes me so annoyed that there is ALWAYS people at my local Starbucks when amazing coffee is cheap and easy to make at home
Finally seriously considering an upgrade in my grinder and thus have been watching all your other videos. The production quality and your presence on camera has only gone up! Love it!
I pre-ordered one after being quite frustrated of the difficulty to order a Niche, had been trying for months + in some parts of the world the Key with discount wasn't that much more expensive than the Niche. Do have to say that I was quite nervous with the IGG backing of a product that had 0 review, but I liked the concept and quite relieved to see your review!
That's something I find consistently frustrating with products like this. We have *incredibly* high torque electric motors available cheaply and easily to manufacturers like this. If you're down in the 30-180rpm range why wouldn't you take one of those extremely powerful motors and gear it way down and you'd have something that would never, ever stall. I do wonder, do the motors stall because they don't want the grinder to self destruct if the burrs crash? Better than sending shards of burrs everywhere if someone makes a mistake
The main difference seems to be the fixing of the inner grinder and outer grinder parts. For the inner grinder part: In the Niche, there is some horizontal flexibility due to only the top bearing being fixed (in a plastic holder!). The bottom bearing is done by the motor which is kept in place by flexible rubber fixers. In the Weber the grinder axle is locked by 2 fixed bearings, making it more stable. The motor is connected flexible to the fixed axle (it seems by belt drive). For the outer grinder part: In the Niche, the outer grinder is placed in a cylinder container holding it. The horizontal play depends on how accurate the 2 fit. The grind adjuster is a screw-part that moves up-down and pushes the outer grinder part down on springs. It keeps the outer grinder part flat, but not fixing it in place, allowing it to move horizontally (depending on the tolerances of the container-grinder). In the Weber, I noticed that the outer grinder part is fixed to the screw-part that adjusts the grind size (move up down on the screw thread). The metal ring is just to lock the screw-part. In total, the Weber has the potential of being more stable while the Niche probably allows more horizontal move (wobble) of the grinder parts. The wobble would be due to the coffee pushing against the grinder parts when distributed uneven or by differences in hardness of coffee beans.
It’s a geared drive with two bearings at the top of the axle. The inner burr is at the end of the axle and also where the load is applied. I don’t know which design is subject to greater deviations under load, but as for fixed alignment, both are probably similar. DF64 uses a similar adjustment to the Niche.
@@BruceWayne-ck2yy You can check it out in below links. The Niche has a single top bearing in a flexible plastic plate: ua-cam.com/video/HOsgp-jggXw/v-deo.html The engine is mounted flexible: ua-cam.com/video/HOsgp-jggXw/v-deo.html Play will be minimal but definitely more compared with 2 fixed bearings (under load condition).
That is an exceptionally large amount of money for a grinder of this quality. Seems like there are many other options under that price point that makes this stick out like a very expensive sore thumb
Random suggestion that may appeal to your inner obsessive nerd: At some point you should invest into a set of classifying meshes and actually compare different grinders and grind settings, and for each grinder, produce a histogram of particle sizes. Then to top it off, experiment with how those particle size histograms affect taste. You could even try out how an espresso made with only a very specific particle size or a custom blend of particle sizes comes out. That would be peak coffee nerdism.
In regards to the issue where the grinder stalls after back to back shots - even moving to a coarser grind: this is because the motor itself will heat up under load. This leads to a higher voltage that is being pulled by the motor in order to maintain the same level of grind consistency (adding even more heat to the motor), which eventually leads to worse and worse performance since electronic motors perform poorer in high temperature conditions. This is why PCs will thermal throttle in order to stop the machine from damaging it's own components under load and why fans are a necessity for them to run properly. Your grinder performing worse after being put through lots of work back to back is by no means an issue Weber introduced, but more of an issue with how motors and electronics work in general. You are right in saying that the motor is working very hard and potentially becoming damaged from doing too much work. Great review though! I love how deep you go into all your reviews. Keep up the good work!
I wonder whether it’s really a design flaw, or just an acceptable thermal limitation to save space and cost. I presume reviewers trying out all the options run a grinder much longer than any normal user would.
I was surprised how much clarity you can get from those burrs at lower rpm and how well it works for coarser brew methods as well. It seems pretty unimodal style (except with a kinda Unami like richness) I mean for a conical burr grinder it seems more like what people think of a flat burr especially compared to something like a Eureka grinder which is more traditional and not so high clarity usually. . Seems like Hoffman was maybe referring to Eureka (single dose grinder) talking about there always being risks and potential issues with pre orders / first batches of grinders or anything. I'm pretty happy with the Key or those burrs at least. I think Weber as a company and their responses left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths.
Just have to say the production quality of the intro was phenomenal. Your video style and aesthetic is definitely a favorite and what drew me to watch one of your videos for the first time, a few weeks ago. It was the video that you introduced the poster and shirts for sale. I was about to instantly buy a shirt since I liked it so much.
Best. Nap. Ever. Your voice is so nice and soothing, it lulled me into sleep on the couch. I am not saying you are boring, I was just very tired after a poorly slept night and a day of work.
As always James, your last 2-4 min of your videos wrap it all up in a neat package with a beautiful bow on top. Thank you so much for your honest reviews. One ask, Rather than the niche comparison can you do a short with a comparison to the Option-O 64 that you referenced. Closet price point with similar features I would love to hear your thoughts.
A note on stalling: Electric motors can be considered to be resistors. Voltage directly correlates to RPM output of motors. Voltage equals resistance (a constant characteristic of the motor) multiplied by amperage (a variable). Amperage is directly related to torque output. From the resistance equation we can see that decreasing voltage will also decrease amperage, therefore decreasing torque. Therefore, decreasing the RPM you run at decreases the torque and increases likelihood of stalling.
At the price, it seem peculiar to not include proper motor control from Weber's side. A brushless motor with field control could easily maintain proper torque at all speeds at very little additional cost. They are becoming more common in battery powered hand tools, so why not in coffee grinders that cost 10x as much.
I agree 100%, but to be fair, usually, this will be justified by scales of economy. Powertools are mass produced to crazy amounts. Specialist home coffee grinders are still a massively niche market where there is not enough feature/price-based competition to warrant a feature race. I have no doubt that people will buy the Weber over significantly cheaper and more feature loaded products just because Weber is branded well and makes products that look cool.
Bear in mind that Mazzer matches this conical burr with a 900W 3-phase motor, e.q 1.2 horsepower, running at 420 rpm. It is unlikely a motor with this kind of torque will fit inside the current housing (with enough space to dissipate the heat.
Good point which implies 900W would be smaller than 100x150mm. What would the transmission parts look like for 900W and could the cost remain the same or less?
James, I use a Niche with a magic tumbler, it would have been interesting to have used the magic tumbler in your comparison of both grinders as I've found that it makes a small but noticeable improvement to the Niche as well. If you want to spend a serious amount of Patreon subscriber's money, it would be interesting to compare it to a Versalab, I have both grinders and it's a fair way ahead of the Niche, and then I suspect the Key, with the same single bearing shaft that the Key has, but a far better bean funnel lid functional solution. A value for money comparison would be interesting
Monolith MC4 and A Versalab as well as Titus are probably nicer / better, but also more expensive or harder to get. I haven't used any of those myself though, I have really been enjoying the coffees out of the Key though.
Great review, probably my most anticipated UA-cam video to date! I’ve had my Key for about 3 weeks and although I had struggles dialling it in and some spurting from the first 5 or so shots it seemed to settle down and after about a week of using it I have been happy with the shots (clarity definitely true vs the Niche still sat beside it but less texture as James said). Workflow is great, I don’t RDT, instead using the glass tube caddy I ordered with it and get only a little static in the magic tumbler as well as good results with channeling without WDT, which I’ve given up on as I agree with James that it get you close enough to not necessarily need it, although I do get it out occasionally for a bad ‘drop’ into the basket. There are quirks and the paperclip thing is great but annoying to get around. I’d rather it was higher and you could let the magic tumbler centre before then lifting it straight up into place, but the paperclip is unfortunately too low. All in all though it looks and feels fantastic, workflow is great, shots and filter taste great and I don’t regret pre-ordering, despite the 5 months wait.
I didn't buy this grinder at launch even though I had the money and need, at the time. I really wanted to wait for this review. I'm very glad I did. I'm happy to wait for V2, as this grinder ticks almost all of my boxes, it's just the workflow that I was waiting to see.
So in Australia. The niche is running $1800. The key grinder in total cost me $2200 because I was an early backer. The final price is closer to the $3000 mark. Will have to see if I can justify the little bit extra for the key over the niche.
Great review, as always James! Also fantastic that you looked into the effects of variable grind speeds a bit. Still hoping for a more exhaustive venture into this subject. Cheers
Hey from Las Vegas. So Mom and Dad just got off the plane they came back from Hawaii with ground single estate 100% Hawaiian coffee medium roast. I made two cups of it. Its strong as heck so i grab a 6 inch pan roast the ground coffee before I brew the coffee.time consuming and worth it. Ever tried it? It's like taking a light roast coffee and turning it into a dark roast right there in your kitchen it makes the coffee taste better and makes you feel good about what you've done all that jazz anyway happy Easter
HG-1, HG-1 Prime, HG-2 and The Key have em, but they're all related. The WDT thing is kinda annoying on the Key though where it could end up sitting anywhere at the end of grinding and you need to avoid hitting it. I took mine out, works nicely without it. I do WDT after it's in the basket before tamping. I don't do RDT (water spraying) either, never liked the idea of doing that.
Never used the "anti-popcorn" lid or installed the WDT clip. Used the dosing cup once, but it's too narrow given you need to spray down the beans. For me, 30rpm is fabulous for really dark roasts, and provisionally, also Italian blends containing robusta. On the "scaling up" discussion, I think I would have mentioned COVID and in Taiwan particularly, the floods, rolling blackouts and labor shortages the island suffered while the Key was going into production. Certainly not things the Niche had to deal with when it premiered. I also notice that the magnet on the bottom of the Magic Tumbler effects my Pyxis scale. I wonder what the implications are of (long-term) exposure to a magnetic field on electronics and metals the Tumbler comes in contact with?
i love how honest these are. what i dont like is to se how expensive things still dont provide an all around good experience. shame on the manufacturers. i should be satisfied with every aspect of a thing if i spent that much money
I use the Breville (Sage) Smart Grinder Pro that I got on sale for $179 for my pour-over and the Baratza Sette 270Wi for my espresso; they both work great. I seriously can't imagine spending that kind of money for a home coffee grinder. It is a nice-looking unit though and admittedly, if I had $2000 to just spend on whatever, it would potentially be in my kitchen.
See but that's just it. If you had only $2000 to blow on anything, I feel like a grinder with all kinds of issues would not be high on your list. This feels like something you buy when you have $50k to blow. Like, eh whatever, looks cool in my kitchen
Astonishing production (apart from the small continuity mishap at 2:47), and a pleasure to watch! The video is possibly better than the grinder itself.
Guess I will keep using my little Hareo hand grinder then, but I’m just doing V-60 poor overs not pulling shots so... Beautifully done and honest as usual!
Your observation about the effects of grind speed is very interesting. I experience the same thing with the 1Zpresso J-max. When I dial in the espresso with the lowest grind speed possible - determined by my grip strength - and then increase the grind speed to the extent of my physical prowess, extraction time decreases from about 30 seconds to barely 10 seconds. Maybe this is completely unrelated and due to a physical defect in my grinder, but the similarities to your experience struck me.
Back in the 2000s my main grinder was a three phase Robur with the 83mm burrs, driven by a variable frequency drive. I found, just as you did here, that lower rpms at the same grind setting gave slower espresso flow rates. Seemed to me that the slower speed kept each bean in contact with the burrs (and other beans) longer, resulting in more crushing and smaller average particle size.
That's awesome, you were ahead of the curve there :D Great explanation of why it might work that way, I think you may be right. Did you find you got better clarity as well with that grinder going lower in RPM? I think that grinder or others that use that same burr type are more more for high volume cafes and work at a much higher RPMs and I've heard have a very different profile as a result (more body, less clarity at their stock RPM)?
@@BensCoffeeRants As a matter of fact yes, I was ahead of the curve. 😁 Re: noticing greater clarity at lower RPMs, no I didn't notice that. But you have to appreciate that 15 years ago we knew far far less about how to make good espresso and most of us were struggling just to make a drinkable shot. So nuances of clarity and flavor notes were quite beyond our reach.
Still waiting over here boss But not sorry I went with a Key instead of a Niche or P64 I have a smaller coffee bar so the footprint is quite important I have a countersunk, White Decent XL and this is going to be very nice next to it I got mad at Niche after getting shut out of their sales a couple times I'm limping along with my Barratza 270 until it finally gets here
My main frustration is the enormous lead time. I ordered a week or into the start of campaign and I’m looking at almost another year until delivery based on Douglas’s estimates. Had I known it would not be Oct 21 from July 21 but Feb 23 instead I’d rather have waited to get another grinder. It also seems like a spurious upgrade from the niche which is concerning considering the cost and lead time
Ever since I discovered your videos I have gone down the rabbit hole of espresso and I love it. For your next video could you cover pressurized vs non pressurized portafilters. Thanks!
On the topic of the rpm setting vs flow speed: My bet is it has something to do with that huge unsuported shaft flexing. Everthing is a spring, no matter what you make it out of. Bearings also have some tolerance so they can function at all. Coffee will not be entering the burrs symmetrically just due to bean shape and other factors so I could see the shaft deflecting and altering the distribution. This is likely nonlinear with rpm and may be the reason you saw the results you did. Also just seems such an odd choice, unsupported shafts that are loaded in high torque with asymmetrical and sudden load changes are a bad combination in any machine. This is a use case that requires that shaft to deflect as little as possible and they did the thing that makes it almost as floppy as possible. Would love to see a redesign that addresses this issue and see if it makes a difference.
Awesome awesome intro video, major step up from your older ones and those aren't bad by any means. Congrats! First thing looking at the design, that grinder shaft was too long and exposed, the popcorning ring should be clear like the Niche. If one still has to WDT grinds then I would probably remove that paperclip thing. Really appreciated you did this via patreon and sharing honest opinions, cheers!
This is version 1, but the current version (mk ii) has 50% more torque and also has a ring that is now detachable just as James described how he wished it was--it is divided in half and attaches through magnets. FWIW, the users on reddit who have the second version are quite happy with it.
I know this video is about the grinder (which is way out of my price range), but... where can I get that little white bowl you use for the beans? It's just beautiful.
Would love to see Bezzera Strega and other spring Lever expresso machine reviews and how they compare to non lever machines. I am huge fan of lever machines but have not pulled the trigger yet.
I've ordered my key in August and still don't have it. That is a little disappointing. Also the fact that they already have a 'key givaway' even though some of their first backers haven't even gotten their grinders is a little painful. I am still excited to get mine, I still think its an amazing product but the way weber treats customers isn't on par with their advertising or quality of product
I found for me the best workflow is with the magic tumbler WITHOUT the built in WDT tool, and no wiper arm either. It usually doesn't need it anyway (decaf or really dark oily coffee might stick to the tumbler walls a bit more though) I also don't use RDT.
I'm not interested in the Weber Workshops Key grinder. But James Hoffmann's videos are one of my favourite 'TV Series'. Always looking forward to the next episode, to episode (Reddit) reviews and recaps, and breakdowns of season finales... 🤣
Ah something within my price range, that spray bottle is something to indulge on.
Can‘t beat a nice spray bottle.
LMAO at least it's not just me.
Brilliant.
I had my eye on that ceramic dosing vessel. Maybe I will wait for James review first.
Lol !
Big kudos for the price discussion. In my opinion, most tech reviewers give pricing too little importance because they receive the products for free. Once you pay the full price your expectations increase.
Unfortunately you can only spent the money once
Yea, so agree! I 2nd that comment
Lots of tech reviewers buy the products. They tend to just have a lot more money than we do.
The cinematography of this... Is Amazing. I would appreciate a behind the scenes of the making this video as much as I appreciate your review. There is a reason why you're the Gold Standard of Coffee Experts that people are drawn to and your artistry in presentation is one of the many reasons you remain at the top.
😂 glazing hard af bro get off your knees and wipe your mouth 😂
First off, I was shocked to see my video referenced by the grandaddy of coffee himself, what an honour. Also, we're all excited to see this review. I was debating about getting an additional WDT tool but have been getting good consistent shots with just the magic tumbler + wiper, this confirms it for me, no need for me to add 1 more tool and step to my workflow for a marginal improvement.
Jess I thought your review was really great, and you deserve a lot of credit for going about it first, and independently, without the bias from other pro reviewers. Great work. The community is richer for it.
@@kenflip thank you Ken :) Also glad I didn't hit the mark, phiou. It seems my review and findings were pretty on par with James'
I thought your review was great! I appreciated how quickly you got it out too, there wasn’t much information out in the wild when deliveries started, so it was good to see yours there so early on.
Hey James! Thank you for sharing my review in the description. I’m humbled & grateful! I agree with everything you shared and truthfully this is a grinder that I have a love hate relationship with. While ultimately it makes delicious coffee in a compact beautiful package I, like you, haven’t had issues with alignment. But I do feel for those who have. I purchased this out of pocket and I was left wondering if my money was well spent because of its workflow quirks. I decided that it was based on the overall grinder experience alone. But I’d understand why others wouldn’t agree. I’m excited to continue to research variable RPM and it’s impact on uniformity and taste. Thanks for sharing! 😃
As a metal worker, their self-alignment claim removes all interest in owning anything they make😶
I am curious to hear from you, Kyle, regarding the variable RPM to taste effects! Keep having fun with your gear and subsequent reviews!
Currently waiting on my Key. And I am a bit tired of the negativity and drama, mostly coming from one particular reviewer, regarding this grinder.
@@veganpotterthevegan yep. It's yet another bogus snake oil claim from Weber. Like "pre-seasoned" and then coated burrs??
I also find it questionable to have such a long drive shaft. Though Weber seems reluctant to improve and iterate on their designs and instead keep the same faulty design from the HG-1. They couldn't even fix the grind adjustment to thread the opposite direction.
It makes you wonder why there was a need to do Kickstarter if they're reusing design (and tooling?) from previous work.
@@MattM-24 To be fair, the burrs may season faster than most since they're grinding on one another as they self-center 😂
@@veganpotterthevegan check you're approach to eating and work life balance. Maybe a beer or ten.
It’s been interesting to see other’s experiences with the Key, and I was definitely curious to hear what you had to say.
It would appear you’ve had a much more positive experience than I on every level. This further makes me sure there was something significantly wrong with my grinder and when in tandem with Weber’s abysmal (to say the least) customer service I found myself wanting it off my counter.
Of course everyone who backed it took a risk (my first and last backing on coffee gear) and I felt like it was a calculated risk, but a risk nonetheless. That risk wasn’t worth it for me, and resulted in a lot frustration, buyer’s remorse, and subsequently drama.
Like you said no one can tell those in the market for a grinder in this price range if it’s worth the cash, but I applaud you for sharing links to a broad spectrum of reviews for a fuller picture.
QC is a big problem in Weber Workshops.
@@dominiquetu customer support as well lol
@@MrMarki134 Agree 100% !
Yep and the reason I didn’t jump on the preorder bandwagon.
WW could definitely use improved customer service. In my experience they tilt to much toward the 'you're holding it wrong' side of an argument.
That intro... I don't think I've ever had so many feels for a piece of coffee equipment... Stunning work!
Yes, super impressive videography in the first few seconds! It makes me wonder how involvement @James Hoffmann has in the videography these days (especially given his recent ‘Deep Dive’ interview). Is this how far his videography has come? Or is he working with a skilled team? Or a mix of both? Either way its amazing stuff and we’re lucky to have such content available on UA-cam for consumption worldwide…
They must have a programmable slider... It all looked very professional.
Had to post a reply to this comment. Intro showed some mad skills.
@@paullashmana yep, repeat the same camera move over and over, layer the footage and mask out what you want to hide, simple magic
I'm sure James would have credited an editor. He has talked about taking courses in video editing, he's been making videos for years, and he's a man of good taste, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's behind the editing.
If you want to test the center shaft alignment as it grinds, you could use a machinist's center dial indicator to see if the shaft strays from the center.
excatly what I thought too
´👍
for sure - though just keep in mind that if there is a finish on the shaft, or if it was chromed, for example, irregularities in that would get picked up on the dial indicator.
I did exactly this, like above, the finish on the shaft does throw out the measurement. To achieve an accurate measurement you need to remove the lower burr and get a reading from the end of the shaft, mine was perfect.
Wired Gourmet has tools like that, someone should lend him their Key for testing.
However, that doesn't tell you if the cone burr is concentric with the shaft. If Mazzer's (burr manufacturer) and Weber's tolerances add up the wrong way, then you're stuck unless you have the machine tools to fix the issue.
oh thank goodness. I was just about to start working for the day.
I just got one of these (Weber Key) and thought I would post my initial impressions. First off, there is some assembly required. James doesn't mention this, perhaps he was furnished with a grinder which was already fully assembled and calibrated. The magic tumbler installation is sadly non-trivial. You have to lay the grinder on its side and use a hex key to remove a screw and a plastic axle cap, then replace the axle cap with a washer and the stirring device for the magic number. This sounds trivial but in practice the screw is cranked on so tight that it is necessary to perform the "last resort method" described in the user guide which consists of removing the gearbox cover so you can put something through a hole in the axle to prevent the axle from spinning while you loosen the bolt/screw with the hex key. And when you remove the bolt/screw, the inner burr is free to fall out should you turn the grinder right side up again for any reason. If this happens, be aware there is a tiny piece of steel called a key which may fall out. This happened to me and I didn't notice at first. I found it on the floor later. This tiny piece of steel sits partly in a groove on one side of the axle and partly in a corresponding groove on the inside of the inner burr. Getting this piece back in place in the correct orientation and reinstalling the lower burr is tricky, especially if you have big hands. Without this "key" in place the inner burr is free to spin around the axle rendering any attempted calibration or grind adjustments useless. Also, if you tighten the screw too much after installing the magic tumbler you won't be able to turn the burr mount at all to back it off the required 1 3/4 turns from the zero (burr contact) point. Anyway, after an email exchange with support I finally got the grinder assembled properly and was able to successfully calibrate it. I feel the grinder should come already assembled with the tumbler option one ordered. The customer should not have to go through this hassle.
Wow dude. I just cannot express how ridiculous I find these high end grinders. For $2k it should come with a complimentary evening with a prostitute, let alone not be a user nightmare to do a CLEARLY INTENDED PROCEDURE. I feel like James isn't nearly harsh enough sometimes. When I pay an insane amount of money for something, I want it to be absolutely flawless and last forever. A friend of mine bought a high-end pocket knife, the thing had a lifetime warranty for literally any and all damage, and you could even send it back to them to be sharpened at no additional cost. That's what I'm expecting from a $2k grinder, not building a piece of Ikea furniture from hell
I love that your videos are just equally good in a coffee way and in a video making way. Such cinematic shots you got going on.
Just received my KEY. Proud owner of HG1, loved it, and saw this motorized version, jumped on the deal last year April. Promised to receive it last year October, but got postponed, and I just got it today.
Compared it to my HG1, very similar.
Compared to my Niche Zero, which I used previously when I had parties around, because it's not easy to grind manually, it's just like my HG1, it's so much cleaner, less residual grinds (fine powders), and the extraction was a lot smoother.
Previously, I had to counter it by using under puck filters when I was using my Niche, but on this, with or without under puck filters perform very similarly, only affects less than 0.1-0.2% EY, unlike Niche Zero, can go up to 2% EY when using under puck filters.
This one grinder can make me retire both my Niche Zero and HG1, and free up so much counter space. This alone is worth more than what I paid for.
Anyway, I'll be removing the paper clip, and doing WDT anyway.
Seeing this, and its price, makes me appreciate just what a good deal my Kopi Deva was. Those two grinders aren't a million miles apart in terms of philosophy, but the Kopi was a fraction of the cost and, to my mind, benefits from way better ergonomics.
Kopi literally means coffee in my country's language 😂
It means copy in mine 😁
@@homeland1128 Yeah, the only reason I know that is because of kopi luawk - which is absolutely not something I drink BTW!
Oh wow that looks amazing and price is affordable! I think I will order it as my next grinder!
I’m waiting on mine to play with. Again - they’ve got the challenge of scaling up to wrestle with yet
Thanks for the great review. I've had this grinder now for two weeks and here's my two cents. I live in NYC and like all residents of this metropolis, counter space is at a premium. I use an Olympia Cremina for my espresso and I was looking for a grinder that had an equally small footprint, if not smaller. I also wanted a grinder that could grind any bean with some sort of exacting marker system. My old grinder was the Olympia Moca grinder and I found the setting indicator to be very frustrating. I couldn't switch beans and then switch back and just go right to the previous setting easily. It was always a search. Also, the Moca grinder never seem to grind fine enough, even with me taking it apart and making a finer adjustment. I find the Key can grind anything and switching back to a previous bean super easy to do. Overall, I am super happy with this grinder. I feel it to be a huge step-up from the Moca. I will say, even though it's suppose to be "preseasoned" I find that to not be the case. The first shots I pulled on this, even with the correct grind, were not great but each shot is getting better and better. After just two weeks I find I'm making great espresso. That all being said is it worth 2K? No Idea. I, like you got it for the preorder price. Also, the Cremina has a 49mm basket and I find this grinder with the standard tumbler is fantastic.
Hey Rod, if you end up hating the Key for whatever reason in the long run and end up selling it, I do highly recommend the Niche for the following reasons: I like you live in a smaller space and can confirm that the Niche is low profile; the Niche is also an upstart and so you would be supporting a smaller player; the Niche is much better value than the Key. And maybe subjectively here I personally believe the Niche offers better workflow and design esthetic than the Key. Note I do not have any commercial/business interest in Niche or it's products just a fellow coffee enthusiast sharing an opinion.
@@canucklostintheusa5306 just note the Niche will give more texture, less clarity than the KEY, and a flat burr will give more clarity less texture than the KEY.
This review is as objective as one could make, especially after all the controversies happened around this product. Well done! (The intro is really awesome btw)
Thanks for the detailed review, James. The intro editing was truly next-level, and is setting a new bar for the rest of the coffee world. I think you picked up on a a few points that we tend to agree with internally, in particular the part about the stainless dosing cup. That and the RDT spray bottle are the “off the shelf” items we just buy in bulk and include for convenience, with the workflow really intended for use with our own Bean Cellars (over half of customers purchase them together as an add-on accessory). We will be adding our suggested workflow for espresso to our UA-cam channel (we currently have in there for the EG-1), including the use of EPFs (espresso paper filters) that we just announced last week.
Overall a very fair and honest review, and we’re always happy to hear your feedback. While production speed has been incredibly affected by the pandemic, we’re not letting that affect output quality. In the end this was a crowdfunded project, different from our usual mode of operation, and we are extremely grateful for all those who backed it and helped make it a reality. Our team has experience designing and producing very large volume products (iPod, iPhone, Google phones, etc.), so this bridges the gap for us from low-volume boutique items and super high volume electronics.
Lastly, we will of course extend your product warranty to whichever of your Patreons wins the KEY =)
That’s one of the most impressive intros I can remember seeing in any product-review UA-cam video ever
What i love about my niche (appart from the grind quality), is the workflow, so pleasant. I feel that even pouring beans in this weber seems tedious, avoiding the big metal bar and not spilling beans, , adjusting grind setting to, the lid that you had to remove and coffe ground poping and making a mess, workflow seems finicky.
I love the magnet base tho
I've only watched 21 seconds but need to express my appreciation for the cinematography. James' content has always been useful and entertaining, but it's becoming increasingly beautiful too ❤
That intro made me realize that my man is the MKBHD of coffee
That means all fluff no substance. Markass Brownie isn't a proper tech reviewer, he's a videographer with interest in tech at best. That's like spitting in the face of James lol.
@@selmansenkalpwhat are tech reviewers supposed to be then?
Every grinder review - feat. Niche Zero grinder!
Another epic review, thank you, James! You made my trip back to the office so much better this morning!
Let me compare this grinder on backorder with this other grinder on perpetual backorder. 🤣
@@scottleggejr to be fair, the Niche has been doing a lot better on this front lately. I'm on their mailing list and they've been having new batches of pre-orders every month lately (a frustration for me, who is still saving up the cash for mine). It's still a two-month delay between ordering and shipping the grinder, but the offerings have been getting more and more frequently this year.
James: The paper clip helps declump the grounds
Me: Oooh neat...
James: But does it work?
Me: Oh my God yeah does it work?
I finally bit the bullet and bought a Niche Zero for myself at the end of last year. Not only did it arrive much faster than I anticipated, but the price has been stable for some time (~$550 USD). The improvements to this machine since the first run of them were noticeable and appreciated. They did listen to their customers, and that feels really good. The dosing cup feels heavier and of higher quality. It no longer has that ridge on the inside for grounds to get stuck, and the interior bottom is parabolic. They have the anti-popcorning disc standard in the grinders, now, but they're still removable. The overall feel of the grinder feels a little "tighter" than the first versions, though that could also be because the V1 I've been using has been trucking for over two years, now in a cafe setting, where it sees intermittent back-to-back use on a daily basis. As such, I feel like not only did Niche just nail it out of the gate with a reasonably priced grinder in terms of usability, footprint, and ergonomics, the longevity is apparent, even with the early models.
Weber makes beautiful machines, for sure, but I'll sacrifice the gorgeous brushed metal and sleekness for the FAR more affordable (for me) option that does everything I want and need without the things I know would annoy me (like the grind adjustment ring).
Niche is a very nice grinder, You lose out on the RPM control and extra flavour clarity on those larger 83mm mazzer burrs in the KEY, but for the price difference, that may not matter so much.
Ah James, these videos are how dreams are made. I have found that as soon as I discovered you my coffee game shifted immensely, and my desire to seek out an affordable way to make an amazing cup of joe has taken on a very thoughtful path. But then I get sucked into the next level just above where I am that keeps me wondering, how far do I need to go, or want to go, or can afford to go and these reviews help me to make that decision clearly because I feel I can trust in your opinions, and I haven’t been let down. Because of you I have my Niche and I haven’t been happier or ever tempted to up my game. And even though I have what I love and don’t see myself wanting another grinder I still love watching these videos, with their production values, and awesome detailed reviews.
Thank you.
Why did you have to post this?!?!?! For the whole second half of this video I've been thinking, "I really want a Niche, but I really shouldn't spend more money on coffee stuff"
@@segamble1679 haahahhaa! I’m sorry. But seriously, I haven’t been happier with the Niche. I’m by far no expert but I really think it is a great balance for any style of coffee you want. I kept seeing one grinder being better then another at one thing or another but so far owning my niche has now made it hard for me to want to buy coffee out! Seriously, I’m just like, naaaa, pass, I’ll make my own. And the flavor profiles are so dramatically better that I find it’s even hard for me to want to put any milk products in my cups now. It’s crazy. SORRY
that intro sequence!! 🤯
Waiting for my unit as well. I think at this price range and with the long pre-order time, it’s normal to have high expectation. After seeing few reviews, I’m just hoping it won’t be a disappointment. Thank you for a very thorough review as usual.
Great review, thank you!
My Key has gotten a LOT better the more beans I've used. I'd recommend sticking to pour over for like 5 lbs first, then trying espresso. The burrs felt dull when new and after a few pounds, they feel sharp.
I have the same problem with beans getting stuck in the funnel when using RDT and hiding under the lid, so I agree it's better not to use it.
One of my favorite features is how easy it is to clean the burrs vs many other grinders while keeping your exact setting (my Forte BG is easier, my Niche is harder).
For removing the installing the burrs, I use a 4nm bicycle Torqkeys torque tool and a cut rubber exercise band to hold the shaft. Always the same preload, never worry about slipping during grinding.
The seasoning idea is awesome advice for any new grinder! I bought discard beans which are totally fine, but didn't make the cut at the roaster. They ask me what I got next when I back my truck in now lol.
Good point on ease of access to the burrs for cleaning; this is a major point that a lot of reviewers (and the armchair critics) seem to have somehow missed. There are some inherent design compromises to allow this, and of course it is also the only reason some folks have panicked that their burrs are misaligned (in all likelihood they are better aligned than any grinder you've ever owned, you've just never been able to see them clearly in operation before).
there is no way you bought this coffee grinder
I need my grinder to be here. Ordered on 04/07/2021, and still waiting to be shipped. Thank your for addressing the scaling issue, I think the frustration a lot of early backers have is the delay in shipping, pandemic and all….
I think you better try to reach them for a follow up...
Ah yes, here I am, with my 160 pound feldgrind for daily use for making aeropress in my small oneroom appartment, watching a review of a $2000 product I will never ever buy. Great review as always
That describes probably 50% of all his viewers lol
Yeah Hario slim for moka pot/ v60 guy here. Yeah I love watching this but would never spend 2k on a grinder.
I even watch most of the videos, while using either instant coffee or a hand grinder from my Grandma from the 70s with a plastic Melitta filter. Just like his enthusiasm and sometimes I learn a bit 😊
@@Ufbwgeufjdo I completely agree with that, Starbucks is expensive trash compared to the coffee I make at home with a total of $100 worth of equipment. It makes me so annoyed that there is ALWAYS people at my local Starbucks when amazing coffee is cheap and easy to make at home
Finally seriously considering an upgrade in my grinder and thus have been watching all your other videos. The production quality and your presence on camera has only gone up! Love it!
Your editing for that intro keeps getting elevated to new levels! It's amazing!
I pre-ordered one after being quite frustrated of the difficulty to order a Niche, had been trying for months + in some parts of the world the Key with discount wasn't that much more expensive than the Niche. Do have to say that I was quite nervous with the IGG backing of a product that had 0 review, but I liked the concept and quite relieved to see your review!
The intro though. James’s cinematography never ceases to amaze
gotta say
for $2000 this thing should be able to grind ROCKS at the lowest RPM without issue
Let alone coffee
That's something I find consistently frustrating with products like this. We have *incredibly* high torque electric motors available cheaply and easily to manufacturers like this. If you're down in the 30-180rpm range why wouldn't you take one of those extremely powerful motors and gear it way down and you'd have something that would never, ever stall.
I do wonder, do the motors stall because they don't want the grinder to self destruct if the burrs crash? Better than sending shards of burrs everywhere if someone makes a mistake
completely agree
It's because these companies know that hipsters will pay these insane prices 🤣
This production level of intro video from a coffee guy, our life is definitely getting better!
The main difference seems to be the fixing of the inner grinder and outer grinder parts.
For the inner grinder part:
In the Niche, there is some horizontal flexibility due to only the top bearing being fixed (in a plastic holder!). The bottom bearing is done by the motor which is kept in place by flexible rubber fixers.
In the Weber the grinder axle is locked by 2 fixed bearings, making it more stable. The motor is connected flexible to the fixed axle (it seems by belt drive).
For the outer grinder part:
In the Niche, the outer grinder is placed in a cylinder container holding it. The horizontal play depends on how accurate the 2 fit. The grind adjuster is a screw-part that moves up-down and pushes the outer grinder part down on springs. It keeps the outer grinder part flat, but not fixing it in place, allowing it to move horizontally (depending on the tolerances of the container-grinder).
In the Weber, I noticed that the outer grinder part is fixed to the screw-part that adjusts the grind size (move up down on the screw thread). The metal ring is just to lock the screw-part.
In total, the Weber has the potential of being more stable while the Niche probably allows more horizontal move (wobble) of the grinder parts.
The wobble would be due to the coffee pushing against the grinder parts when distributed uneven or by differences in hardness of coffee beans.
It’s a geared drive with two bearings at the top of the axle. The inner burr is at the end of the axle and also where the load is applied.
I don’t know which design is subject to greater deviations under load, but as for fixed alignment, both are probably similar. DF64 uses a similar adjustment to the Niche.
@@BruceWayne-ck2yy You can check it out in below links. The Niche has a single top bearing in a flexible plastic plate: ua-cam.com/video/HOsgp-jggXw/v-deo.html
The engine is mounted flexible: ua-cam.com/video/HOsgp-jggXw/v-deo.html
Play will be minimal but definitely more compared with 2 fixed bearings (under load condition).
That is an exceptionally large amount of money for a grinder of this quality. Seems like there are many other options under that price point that makes this stick out like a very expensive sore thumb
Random suggestion that may appeal to your inner obsessive nerd: At some point you should invest into a set of classifying meshes and actually compare different grinders and grind settings, and for each grinder, produce a histogram of particle sizes. Then to top it off, experiment with how those particle size histograms affect taste. You could even try out how an espresso made with only a very specific particle size or a custom blend of particle sizes comes out. That would be peak coffee nerdism.
sick idea
In regards to the issue where the grinder stalls after back to back shots - even moving to a coarser grind: this is because the motor itself will heat up under load. This leads to a higher voltage that is being pulled by the motor in order to maintain the same level of grind consistency (adding even more heat to the motor), which eventually leads to worse and worse performance since electronic motors perform poorer in high temperature conditions. This is why PCs will thermal throttle in order to stop the machine from damaging it's own components under load and why fans are a necessity for them to run properly. Your grinder performing worse after being put through lots of work back to back is by no means an issue Weber introduced, but more of an issue with how motors and electronics work in general. You are right in saying that the motor is working very hard and potentially becoming damaged from doing too much work. Great review though! I love how deep you go into all your reviews. Keep up the good work!
I wonder whether it’s really a design flaw, or just an acceptable thermal limitation to save space and cost. I presume reviewers trying out all the options run a grinder much longer than any normal user would.
I absolutely love that dumping mechanism of the "magic tumbler"
Crazy special effects in the intro shots, well done James!
I was surprised how much clarity you can get from those burrs at lower rpm and how well it works for coarser brew methods as well. It seems pretty unimodal style (except with a kinda Unami like richness) I mean for a conical burr grinder it seems more like what people think of a flat burr especially compared to something like a Eureka grinder which is more traditional and not so high clarity usually. . Seems like Hoffman was maybe referring to Eureka (single dose grinder) talking about there always being risks and potential issues with pre orders / first batches of grinders or anything.
I'm pretty happy with the Key or those burrs at least. I think Weber as a company and their responses left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths.
Just have to say the production quality of the intro was phenomenal. Your video style and aesthetic is definitely a favorite and what drew me to watch one of your videos for the first time, a few weeks ago. It was the video that you introduced the poster and shirts for sale. I was about to instantly buy a shirt since I liked it so much.
Best. Nap. Ever. Your voice is so nice and soothing, it lulled me into sleep on the couch. I am not saying you are boring, I was just very tired after a poorly slept night and a day of work.
So glad to see the Niche stil up, running, and being compared to!
The production level of the intro has gone up a massive level! Well done!
As always James, your last 2-4 min of your videos wrap it all up in a neat package with a beautiful bow on top. Thank you so much for your honest reviews. One ask, Rather than the niche comparison can you do a short with a comparison to the Option-O 64 that you referenced. Closet price point with similar features I would love to hear your thoughts.
That intro is WILD! Hats off to the whole team for that one
That's the best intro I've ever seen.
- On anything.
- Ever!
I watched it more than once.
A note on stalling: Electric motors can be considered to be resistors. Voltage directly correlates to RPM output of motors. Voltage equals resistance (a constant characteristic of the motor) multiplied by amperage (a variable). Amperage is directly related to torque output. From the resistance equation we can see that decreasing voltage will also decrease amperage, therefore decreasing torque. Therefore, decreasing the RPM you run at decreases the torque and increases likelihood of stalling.
Only that no machine on earth regulates a motor's rpms by lowering the voltage..
At the price, it seem peculiar to not include proper motor control from Weber's side.
A brushless motor with field control could easily maintain proper torque at all speeds at very little additional cost.
They are becoming more common in battery powered hand tools, so why not in coffee grinders that cost 10x as much.
I agree 100%, but to be fair, usually, this will be justified by scales of economy. Powertools are mass produced to crazy amounts. Specialist home coffee grinders are still a massively niche market where there is not enough feature/price-based competition to warrant a feature race. I have no doubt that people will buy the Weber over significantly cheaper and more feature loaded products just because Weber is branded well and makes products that look cool.
@@broomhandel3960 I'd buy that argument if it wasn't a $2000 unit.. brushless motors are a fraction of that.
Bear in mind that Mazzer matches this conical burr with a 900W 3-phase motor, e.q 1.2 horsepower, running at 420 rpm. It is unlikely a motor with this kind of torque will fit inside the current housing (with enough space to dissipate the heat.
@@98900945r maybe heat is an issue, but you can get a 100x150mm motor putting out 15-20KW, so I don't think housing space is the issue.
Good point which implies 900W would be smaller than 100x150mm. What would the transmission parts look like for 900W and could the cost remain the same or less?
Still waiting for mine... As long as quality isn't compromised, I can wait.
James, I use a Niche with a magic tumbler, it would have been interesting to have used the magic tumbler in your comparison of both grinders as I've found that it makes a small but noticeable improvement to the Niche as well. If you want to spend a serious amount of Patreon subscriber's money, it would be interesting to compare it to a Versalab, I have both grinders and it's a fair way ahead of the Niche, and then I suspect the Key, with the same single bearing shaft that the Key has, but a far better bean funnel lid functional solution. A value for money comparison would be interesting
Monolith MC4 and A Versalab as well as Titus are probably nicer / better, but also more expensive or harder to get. I haven't used any of those myself though, I have really been enjoying the coffees out of the Key though.
Great review, probably my most anticipated UA-cam video to date! I’ve had my Key for about 3 weeks and although I had struggles dialling it in and some spurting from the first 5 or so shots it seemed to settle down and after about a week of using it I have been happy with the shots (clarity definitely true vs the Niche still sat beside it but less texture as James said). Workflow is great, I don’t RDT, instead using the glass tube caddy I ordered with it and get only a little static in the magic tumbler as well as good results with channeling without WDT, which I’ve given up on as I agree with James that it get you close enough to not necessarily need it, although I do get it out occasionally for a bad ‘drop’ into the basket. There are quirks and the paperclip thing is great but annoying to get around. I’d rather it was higher and you could let the magic tumbler centre before then lifting it straight up into place, but the paperclip is unfortunately too low. All in all though it looks and feels fantastic, workflow is great, shots and filter taste great and I don’t regret pre-ordering, despite the 5 months wait.
I didn't buy this grinder at launch even though I had the money and need, at the time. I really wanted to wait for this review. I'm very glad I did. I'm happy to wait for V2, as this grinder ticks almost all of my boxes, it's just the workflow that I was waiting to see.
I really love how thing the machine is. There isn't much space in my apartment and this form factor would make the best use of the space I have.
So in Australia. The niche is running $1800. The key grinder in total cost me $2200 because I was an early backer. The final price is closer to the $3000 mark. Will have to see if I can justify the little bit extra for the key over the niche.
Does anyone know what he is using to pour his beans, that dosing kettle thing at 12:56
Loveramics coffee dosing tray that they collaborated on. Tens Hundreds Thousands has them, and maybe Loveramics, as well.
Great review, as always James! Also fantastic that you looked into the effects of variable grind speeds a bit. Still hoping for a more exhaustive venture into this subject. Cheers
The Weber pepper mill is also amazing
Damn, this see-through B-roll of the motors in the intro was incredible! Stellar work as always!
Can't take my eyes off the tummy. Dunno why but it is kind of pleasing feeling as a I listen to the review.
Hey from Las Vegas.
So Mom and Dad just got off the plane they came back from Hawaii with ground single estate 100% Hawaiian coffee medium roast.
I made two cups of it.
Its strong as heck so i grab a 6 inch pan roast the ground coffee before I brew the coffee.time consuming and worth it. Ever tried it?
It's like taking a light roast coffee and turning it into a dark roast right there in your kitchen it makes the coffee taste better and makes you feel good about what you've done all that jazz anyway happy Easter
That intro though! Fantastic camera work. This is why you are set apart from the rest. Another banger, thanks for the review!
The Eagle One Prima in the background is surely an omen that your next video will be an in-depth review? 🤞
The magic tumbler sounds like a great idea, I really hope to see that feature in other grinders moving forward.
HG-1, HG-1 Prime, HG-2 and The Key have em, but they're all related. The WDT thing is kinda annoying on the Key though where it could end up sitting anywhere at the end of grinding and you need to avoid hitting it. I took mine out, works nicely without it. I do WDT after it's in the basket before tamping.
I don't do RDT (water spraying) either, never liked the idea of doing that.
That intro was absolutely off the chart!
I went ahead and ordered one when I saw the intro.... time to watch the rest of the video now
Never used the "anti-popcorn" lid or installed the WDT clip. Used the dosing cup once, but it's too narrow given you need to spray down the beans. For me, 30rpm is fabulous for really dark roasts, and provisionally, also Italian blends containing robusta.
On the "scaling up" discussion, I think I would have mentioned COVID and in Taiwan particularly, the floods, rolling blackouts and labor shortages the island suffered while the Key was going into production. Certainly not things the Niche had to deal with when it premiered.
I also notice that the magnet on the bottom of the Magic Tumbler effects my Pyxis scale. I wonder what the implications are of (long-term) exposure to a magnetic field on electronics and metals the Tumbler comes in contact with?
James: "Here is a 2000$ Grinder."
Me, who uses a 50€ setup for their coffee: "Interesting."
I have got my Niche for two months very happy with it for my daily cuppa.
I really like the design and the way it works. I don't know if I want to spend that much. But it looks so damn appealing to me.
HG-1 Prime by Craig Lynn is a great 'budget' option, or the original HG-1 which I think was the most beautiful.
i love how honest these are. what i dont like is to se how expensive things still dont provide an all around good experience. shame on the manufacturers. i should be satisfied with every aspect of a thing if i spent that much money
ok whoever wins this needs to refuse to take ownership unless they get the full story of the "small accident" at the studio.
I think that might be your most beautifully shot intro yet, and that's saying something! Great work as always.
I use the Breville (Sage) Smart Grinder Pro that I got on sale for $179 for my pour-over and the Baratza Sette 270Wi for my espresso; they both work great. I seriously can't imagine spending that kind of money for a home coffee grinder. It is a nice-looking unit though and admittedly, if I had $2000 to just spend on whatever, it would potentially be in my kitchen.
See but that's just it. If you had only $2000 to blow on anything, I feel like a grinder with all kinds of issues would not be high on your list. This feels like something you buy when you have $50k to blow. Like, eh whatever, looks cool in my kitchen
Astonishing production (apart from the small continuity mishap at 2:47), and a pleasure to watch! The video is possibly better than the grinder itself.
Guess I will keep using my little Hareo hand grinder then, but I’m just doing V-60 poor overs not pulling shots so...
Beautifully done and honest as usual!
Alright boys have your popcorn ready.
Or breakfast
I'm curious about the direct comparison of taste with Kafatek MC4. Especially in light roasting
Your observation about the effects of grind speed is very interesting. I experience the same thing with the 1Zpresso J-max. When I dial in the espresso with the lowest grind speed possible - determined by my grip strength - and then increase the grind speed to the extent of my physical prowess, extraction time decreases from about 30 seconds to barely 10 seconds.
Maybe this is completely unrelated and due to a physical defect in my grinder, but the similarities to your experience struck me.
Back in the 2000s my main grinder was a three phase Robur with the 83mm burrs, driven by a variable frequency drive. I found, just as you did here, that lower rpms at the same grind setting gave slower espresso flow rates. Seemed to me that the slower speed kept each bean in contact with the burrs (and other beans) longer, resulting in more crushing and smaller average particle size.
That's awesome, you were ahead of the curve there :D Great explanation of why it might work that way, I think you may be right.
Did you find you got better clarity as well with that grinder going lower in RPM? I think that grinder or others that use that same burr type are more more for high volume cafes and work at a much higher RPMs and I've heard have a very different profile as a result (more body, less clarity at their stock RPM)?
@@BensCoffeeRants As a matter of fact yes, I was ahead of the curve. 😁 Re: noticing greater clarity at lower RPMs, no I didn't notice that. But you have to appreciate that 15 years ago we knew far far less about how to make good espresso and most of us were struggling just to make a drinkable shot. So nuances of clarity and flavor notes were quite beyond our reach.
Still waiting over here boss
But not sorry I went with a Key instead of a Niche or P64
I have a smaller coffee bar so the footprint is quite important
I have a countersunk, White Decent XL and this is going to be very nice next to it
I got mad at Niche after getting shut out of their sales a couple times
I'm limping along with my Barratza 270 until it finally gets here
Just want to mention the background music at the beginning of each video is so cool
My main frustration is the enormous lead time. I ordered a week or into the start of campaign and I’m looking at almost another year until delivery based on Douglas’s estimates. Had I known it would not be Oct 21 from July 21 but Feb 23 instead I’d rather have waited to get another grinder. It also seems like a spurious upgrade from the niche which is concerning considering the cost and lead time
Ever since I discovered your videos I have gone down the rabbit hole of espresso and I love it. For your next video could you cover pressurized vs non pressurized portafilters.
Thanks!
On the topic of the rpm setting vs flow speed:
My bet is it has something to do with that huge unsuported shaft flexing. Everthing is a spring, no matter what you make it out of. Bearings also have some tolerance so they can function at all. Coffee will not be entering the burrs symmetrically just due to bean shape and other factors so I could see the shaft deflecting and altering the distribution. This is likely nonlinear with rpm and may be the reason you saw the results you did.
Also just seems such an odd choice, unsupported shafts that are loaded in high torque with asymmetrical and sudden load changes are a bad combination in any machine. This is a use case that requires that shaft to deflect as little as possible and they did the thing that makes it almost as floppy as possible. Would love to see a redesign that addresses this issue and see if it makes a difference.
Awesome awesome intro video, major step up from your older ones and those aren't bad by any means. Congrats!
First thing looking at the design, that grinder shaft was too long and exposed, the popcorning ring should be clear like the Niche. If one still has to WDT grinds then I would probably remove that paperclip thing.
Really appreciated you did this via patreon and sharing honest opinions, cheers!
This is version 1, but the current version (mk ii) has 50% more torque and also has a ring that is now detachable just as James described how he wished it was--it is divided in half and attaches through magnets. FWIW, the users on reddit who have the second version are quite happy with it.
James Hoffmann, that is the best in depth review i have ever seen for which a billion thanks 👏🏼👊🏼🙏🏼
I know this video is about the grinder (which is way out of my price range), but... where can I get that little white bowl you use for the beans? It's just beautiful.
It's a collaboration between Loveramics and Tens Hundreds Thousands. I think you can buy the coffee dosing trays at either website!
@@_equanimity_ Found it. Thank you so much!
Wow, next level of cinematography!
Daaaamn! That MKBHD level intro 🤩
Would love to see Bezzera Strega and other
spring Lever expresso machine reviews and how they compare to non lever machines. I am huge fan of lever machines but have not pulled the trigger yet.
I've ordered my key in August and still don't have it. That is a little disappointing. Also the fact that they already have a 'key givaway' even though some of their first backers haven't even gotten their grinders is a little painful. I am still excited to get mine, I still think its an amazing product but the way weber treats customers isn't on par with their advertising or quality of product
I found for me the best workflow is with the magic tumbler WITHOUT the built in WDT tool, and no wiper arm either. It usually doesn't need it anyway (decaf or really dark oily coffee might stick to the tumbler walls a bit more though) I also don't use RDT.
Any update for the mkIi?
Dear James, Thanks for your review! I am waiting for mine.
I'm not interested in the Weber Workshops Key grinder. But James Hoffmann's videos are one of my favourite 'TV Series'. Always looking forward to the next episode, to episode (Reddit) reviews and recaps, and breakdowns of season finales... 🤣
James Hoffmann is becoming the MKBHD of coffee video content, prove me wrong. Apart from that, great review!