How much power has this car lost in 20 years and 150,000 miles?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 22 лют 2020
- The Mondeo ST200 is back and this time Mike is putting the car through its paces on a dyno. The question is, how many horses have left the stable since the year 2000? The numbers will reveal all...
Thank you to Carly for sponsoring this video!
If you'd like to diagnose your own car using Carly, click this link: bit.ly/2Nnpypq
Follow us:
/ drivetribe
/ drivetribe
Check out our store:
store.drivetribe.com/
Subscribe to the DRIVETRIBE UA-cam channel: bit.ly/D_TRBsubs - Авто та транспорт
Just to be clear, these are crank figures! So we are comparing crank figures from factory vs crank figures on the dyno (the dyno is converting to crank power from the wheel horsepower). So the car has lost 33bhp, as stated in the video!
So this dyno seems to be pessimistic by about 15% on the m5 so maybe the mondeo has only lost about 5-10bhp??? 😄 service and some injector cleaner should sort that right out! 😂
Except the tuned m5 dyno run makes no sense for crank numbers, even the eventauri dude played dumb "yeah sure pal" lol
How did you measure? Was it calculated somehow from wheels?
I guessed 152 horsepower.
Just to be clear, if you need to know the crank hp you need a dyno that can do a coastdown run, you are only estimating now
Supercar owners be like: "How much value has my car lost in 20 miles and 150,000 years?"
Aren't you mixing up wheel and flywheel horsepower? 170 at the wheels seems about right for 200 at the flywheel. Or was the dyno configured to do that conversion already and it was actually doing ~145hp at the wheels?
Corujas Farm Exactly. You beat me to it. Ford will definitely have quoted flywheel figure when the car was new.
and tested at j1939 standard or similar, so even the "standard correction" most dyno ops use isn't comparing apples to apples
No, on a dyno the car accelerates, where you measure the power at the wheel, and then you let the car roll until it stops, and by that the dyno is measuring the loss by friction. Afterwards, they add the lost power to the power at the wheel and you receive the power at the flywheel
And Drivetribe’s response is....?
Is not something close to 15% loss??? Because from 200 bhp, that would be 170 whp and it’s pretty close the power obtained here.
Since the M5 got nearer 750HP on another dyno and only around 650HP on this dyno - with an assumed 15% drivetrain power loss, it leads me to believe that the dyno the Mondeo was tested on was not taking into account the BHP (horsepower at the crank), and only the horsepower at the wheels. Thus, 658HP/85*100 = 774BHP. So 169HP/85*100 = 199BHP. For a 20 year old car, only a small stable is missing - i'm impressed!
Thank you📣
The figures on this dyno are crank.... you can see this on the screen. Secondly you don’t add 15% on to wheel figures. Wheel+losses=100%. Ergo wheel would be 85% in this example. 👍
TPigg are you being serious?! 😂😂😂 Do the calculation yourself. Let’s say 100bhp is the wheel figures. Using your method x that by 1.15=115bhp. The correct way is 100/85*100=117.64bhp. This IS the way you calculate it.
@@Faginrs500 Yeah, you're right - I actually did this math before I had my coffee this morning. I blame the lack of caffeine ;)
TPigg no worries. 👍
169bhp on wheels + 15% = 194.4 Bhp Total horsepower! This car engine work's as it was new! Yes it's in pretty good condition .
Is nobody going to mention the difference between wheel Hp and crank Hp?
You lose a few horses from the crankshaft through the gearbox, drivelines, differentials etc. to eventually the wheels
I think that the 202 hp were measured at the wheels but I'm not sure to be honest
It's tough to know where the manufactuers are measuring the power, so many different manufacturers do crank, some do wheel, and then sometimes it even depends from model to model inside of a single manufacturer. I think if you go back far enough into the ST200 forums online you could compare brand new dyno numbers and get a good reference as to where the power was measured by the original owners dyno numbers but that's a pain in the ass.
Also we have to realize that since this is a FWD car it has a very efficient drive train when compared to RWD and AWD power% loss in all the DT components.
BHP* ( brake hose power) measured at the flywheel. And yes, you are totally right.
@R R I honestly am no here to argue, but just for example. In this video the guy with the M5 tested his when he bought it brand new and it was just over the quoted manufacturer HP rating (at the wheels, no crank). Also if you want, you can check out the new Toyota Supra's dyno runs on UA-cam and you'll find those are also AT manufacturer rating or slightly above manufacturer rating (again as explained in this video, dynos can vary widely).
We bought the 1998 Contour SVT as my wife's first new car. Great fun to drive. Sweet car.
This is the kinda content I wanna see on UA-cam, thanks!
Fords 200hp figure is from crank. Dyno shows wheel hp.
DK Danis some dynos convert to flywheel HP, it would help if they explained which figure that dyno was showing
@@thomasmason8481 i know but most of the time people measure whp.
2:34 - See the little tick box top left for 'flywheel power' so this was measuring BHP and not HP - so had a correction factor applied.
Very true...this guy does not know any thing about cars!
The dyno is showing crank, it is converted from the wheel horsepower.
So in reality the Mondeo made bang on what it should and the Dyno 'expert' lost 100 bhp over what he claimed, is this actually a troll video 🤣🤣🤔🤔.
I do love a ST200, reminds me of the era I passed my test.
Tests a Mondeo ....definitely down on power....tests his BMW ...has to be a shitty dyno. What kind of rubbish is this if your testing one car saying its down on power and a second later someones claiming the dyno "is what it is".
Darren Woods sounds like he wanted a free Dyno run
i know the mondeo wasnt down on power like the owner of the m5 literally knew the dyno just read low, and the mondeo guy it went in one ear out the other, wonder if he got his mondeo restored lol
I have opened up these engines a million times and lack of power is pretty much always down to two things: a completely clogged up intake manifold thanks to the EGR system and/or the intake manifold swirl flaps sticking because of either this or the motor that regulates them having failed.
Geoff, can't wait to see you guys restore that one
How cool is that Mondeo! I love it
You guys got a awesome focus 5 cylinder we don't get In the states. I'd like to see the power loss on it
Next time someone calls me out for not having high power figures, I'm blaming dirty oil
Air filter.
56 likes
Hmm
Ok
My E46 330ci made 233bhp with 170,000 miles on the clock, and it was about 18 years old then. It’s now 20 years old and has 222,000 on the clock; it still feels like it has that now. The Mondeo is a cool car though, and Looking forward to seeing the resto.
Isn't Fords 200 hp figure at the crank whereas this dynos measurement is hp at the wheel?
exactly my dirty thoughts
That would mean the Ford after 150k miles now has more output than it had brand new.
Dynos take the measurement at the wheels, doesnt mean they display the measurement directly (adds the flywheel inertia as it winds down and can account for mechanical losses). There is quite a bit of math going on, but generally you lose about 15-20% between the engine and wheels.
No, the dyno's measurement is from flywheel. It shows "flywheel power" on the video.
Off subject, check if your car has had the plastic impeller in the water pump changed to a metal one, plastic ones known for disintegrating, if you are going to do stuff to the engine or not, make this a priority 👍I have owned both ST 220 and ST 200, and I rate the ST 200 more fun and sounds better in my opinion 👍
I’ve watched enough UA-cam videos to know that standing right next to the dyno is really not a great idea.
My money is on the IMRC (iirc, the secondary control box), similar thing happened to my st24
I like this presenter, just a really chill guy
As well as variables like how tightly the car is strapped down or not strapped down haha can make a difference in readings as well as the dynos brake. All are variables that can vary a dyno reading
Someone needs to know difference between crank hp and actual power at the wheels.
2:34 - See the little tick box top left for 'flywheel power' so this was measuring BHP and not HP - so had a correction factor applied.
You can't possibly know how efficient the gearbox and linkages are though!
Someone needs to know that dynos can test crank power.
@@ruk2023-- they can't. They can use a conversion rate to convert whp to bhp though
Ralph Hardwick they cant, stop trying to sound smart. They just estimate/convert it from whp, it's not that accurate
I really enjoyed this. It makes me wonder about my 2002 Nissan Maxima SE
You should do a test with fuel additives and a good service and see how much power you can get back. Fuel additives first- dynonrun- then service- then dynonagain. It would be interesting.
Liqui Moly additives are used by some of the manufacturers... I’d be interested to see if that made any difference!!
Also, fuel injectors. Dirty or perished or both he should replace those.
With the general rule of thumb being a 15% difference/drop between crank and wheel bhp, that dyno figure looks absolutely bang on to what was factory stated at the crank: 200 - 15% = 170. Am I missing something here?
Drivetribes the one missing something. It should have been obvious the second that BMW lost 100hp on this dyno.
the dyno already that calculation. there was a box on screen ticked to make it calculate flywheel horsepower.
Scribbler I feel like the fella with the BMW was inflating his numbers. he's saying he got his car up to 750 with a tune and basic bolt ons - like, really?
Out of curiosity, I’d love to see another out of production car, like an RX-7. Personally the early 90’s RX-7 was always my favorite car as a kid. I’d love to see a restoration of one, since so many were ruined by Tokyo Drift-style body kits and obnoxious paint jobs.
I'm surprised he never serviced the car before sticking it on the dyno.
Engine flush, and new oil and filters,
( a Terraclean if it's really high mileage )
Would all give it a fighting chance to give the best results.
Your next tuning experiment should be a Vauxhall Calibra. Not because its a high end car, but because it has a very sweet engine which can be tuned/modded well.
Oops, thought this was Car Throttle, my mistake. I'll show myself out
Indent think it lost any horsepower. The 200hp quote was at the crank, not the wheels. That is parasitic loss due to drivetrain. Very impressive
My svt dynoed at 175hp 168tq, which equals the factory numbers at the crank. That was at 110,000 miles. I hope to see you find ways to build more power...
Not bad at all. The old program on BBC, May gained quite a bit of HP with just a simple tune up. Good luck on the restoration!
This was measuring flywheel power (BHP) and not HP at the wheels.
2:34 - See the little tick box top left for 'flywheel power' - so had a correction factor applied.
The reason why the M5 got 750bhp on a different dyno - is that it was a 'happy dyno' i.e. a useless bullshitting dyno result that's used to flatter customers, with an absurd manual correction factor of something like 25%. There are many happy dyno's out there, usually ya find them in all the places that do 'tuning'.
Hi did you check to see if the imrc module was working as that will only give you half the cars power as it opens all 24 valves if not working runs on 12 valves
This was like a CBeebies episode, “ not you all think of a number and see if you guess right” then clapping as the dunk goes for the 4th time😦
A B5 or B7 Audi RS4 Project car. I have yet to see a proper build on one of those and I'm sure everyone will love em.
Ashyl SP Gosai I have an 08 D3, I would love to see the Diesel bi-turbo breathed on, the B5 and B7 have been done to death
@@James-oo1yq yeah but none have been professionally documented on UA-cam.
Ashyl SP Gosai No not on any good big channels, but I think "Hoovies Garage" will be doing something soon with a B7. I think the D3 could reach some good figures, especially with a turbo upgrade.
Well, if you've got the budget I wouldn't mind seeing the ST200 turned into a track monster...V8 / V6 turbo engine, upgraded drivetrain, brakes exhaust etc. Though a factory restoration is fine too.
For your next project, would love to see you work on something like a Subaru Impreza, Mitsubishi Lancer or Sierra Cosworth.
Id love to see a giulia quadrifoglio project car, i think its a very capable car, but its tuning abilities are rather untested and its an undoubtedly fantastic platform from a handling perspective
169 at the wheels is pretty darn close to 200 at the crank. It really hasn't lost much of anything.
God dammit, literally all car people knew you fucked up when you measured from the wheels
You didn’t mention how the dyno is set up? Are these readings wheel bhp or at the crank?
Now it is cca 170 hp, so it lost 30 hp. For anyone, who can't be bother watching... 3:10
Do u know the difference between wheel horsepower and crank?
@@AdamsS12345 Write this to the bloke from video, that is what he said. I can't care less if he is wrong.
@@vojinkouba why u say 30hp loss? Ur saying like 200hp from factory was measured also on the wheels
Silly question but isn’t the dyno figure in wheel horsepower? Because a standard 15% conversion to WHP for FWD drivetrain puts you pretty close to your cars claimed 200hp at the crank. Just curious perhaps I forgot something in the setup
I would love to see you doing a Supra od an older EVO. Or to make it cheaper the best Civic Type R - the 7th gen.
I was thinking 157 but thought that might be a harsh guess. I was shocked how close I was with the first number to come up.
Didn't think we had anything Dynowise in Stevenage unless that was a while later, make me wonder who's got it to work on.
Next project car should be a Volvo 242, I've always had love for those and the have been used for rally racing.
A Turbo and a front mounted intercooler on that mondeo would sort out the power demand. If anything it would make great content to watch.
Near enough bang on with my first run guess
A projectcar i would love to see is the 85-94 Ford Granada/Scorpio Mk I Hatchback with a v6 engine. the car is big and relatively light and for its age well equipt in the ghia model. i have owned many scorpio`s myself and i absolutly love them :)
So your ST200 is now an ST24 with a 200 interior effectively? 👍🏻
I guessed 154.
Because despite the lack of rust, the dents and mileage told me that it would've lost quite a bit. But i did not expect it to climb up to 169.
168bhp probably sprung to mind because the original 2.5 V6 Duratec was specced at that. Later 170. A 168/170 bhp Mondeo's normal designation would be an ST24 or (or Ghia / X also used the non-SVO engine) not an ST168. You could have at least had a quick look at the oil quality and state of the air filter! Get this properly serviced and it may well put out more than 200 bhp, the pistons wear in over time and generate less friction. You'd know if they were too worn, the crankcase would be pressurising.
Lots more things could be responsible, even though the dyno supposedly removes the spin-down drag from the equation, tyre-on-roller friction can soak up a lot of bhp, especially on rollers that small with a tight radius and more tyre flex. Primary close-coupled catalysts probably haven't been changed since new and may be breaking down and clogging the exhaust flow (as can the secondary cat if it is a few years old - Ford used high flow sports cats on these but are often replaced with standard flow ones). These primaries can be gutted and have no effect on the MOT result as they are only intended for use during engine warm-up. The spark plugs are specified for 50,000 miles but often never get changed because the rear bank of cylinders is a swine to get to - at least check the state of the front three. Fuel filters often get overlooked too, but looking at the nice smooth dyno plot, it doesn't seem to be running lean. Premium octane fuel will give a few more bhp.
So... maybe go put the Mondeo on the BMW owner’s dyno and see if it puts up a different number? 658 vs 750 is around 13% different, which would bring the Mondeo up to 190hp
Guessed 170hp before the test, seeing 168 made me feel pretty good about my ballparking ability
How about getting the blown Yaris Hilton from the Mighty Car Mod boys and restore that?
No joke. When you asked us to guess a number, I blurted out 156!
Ol cossy still got some get up n go bless er
Next vid: can we get those gg’s back. With a basic tool kit.
153 hp I guess
DAMN WAS I CLOSE the first time That is
Please choose the Alpina D3 bi turbo. Rare and underrated. Besides the B5 and B7 have been done to death. I own an 08 car, and have been thinking about upgrading the turbos
A similarly aged VW GTI would be a fun project car to dyno.
I owned two st200 in my time and I never saw one make 200 bhp my first made 193.6 bhp and my second one made 195 but I put a stainless exhaust and kn air filter and a remap got 197bhp
How are the tires, btw? Are they newer, or as old as the car?
Project car suggestion, w210 E55 AMG or maybe w202 C36 AMG? Maybe an old Jaguar with the 4.0/4.2 supercharged V8? Depending on budget, maybe a ropey TVR if you can find one.
N54 powered 135 or 335 as a DriveTribe project car. With just a few simple modifications, you'll have some pretty impressive numbers. Also, it would be a great UA-cam project car because, being N54 powered, it will always be fucking broken so you'll never run out of content.
@DRIVETRIBE, for a more powerful project car, how about either a Nissan 300zx, or Mitsubishi 3000gt.
Both can be had for about 5k, 280hp-ish TT V6 in both.
lets see a mk3-4 jetta/golf build, great cars to work on and they're super cheap and reliable
Should always have a fresh or even have it recently serviced to show the true power when running right
The cam lobes in these don't wear because they're for hydraulic rollers. Carbon build up and piston ring wear are what's got you down, and in these engines they both bring out the worst in each other restricting your secondary intake runners, exhaust manifold, and the ports in your heads.
You very lucky to have one with 150k on the clock, in North America those are "SVT Contours" (also 200ish HP) and the typical owner shows them relentless abuse from the time it left the dealership to the time the engine blew/locked up..... Everyone thinks "Oh SVT, it's a race car!" and proceeds to treat it as such. I have 3 pre-owned SVT Contours, one blew up the motor before 95k, another was turned into a race car with condition unknown at about 90k, and our only running one barely runs at 115k - it burns more oil than gas now and with a serious vacuum leak once it's warm it doesn't run for much longer than 20 minutes at a time......
Here in the states the NON-performance Contours are what you want, lucky for you the ST200 owners seem to be more civilized drivers.
next project car: Supra or M3 E46 or a sleeper of some sort
You might of recorded the first bit of this video after the dyno runs.. 😉
To be honest I would of gave it a full service and carbon clean to get a true accurate reading
So what was the actual measured power? Not converted to crank bs - what it actually put on the rollers?
Try changing the leads plugs oil and filter and air filter and give it some redex to clean the gum out of the engine and I bet it will increase by around 20 more extra
My current car had 133 HP when it was new. 21 years ago. Well, I'm not surprised anymore that it feels like a snail nowadays.
what does a good service do for a car that old?
What are those rims on the m5?
'77 Datsun 280Z w/GM 5.0 crate motor.
salmonline any idea how expensive that is in the uk?
Nothing shows power loss better then a 1/4 mile run. But either way that car is awesome, and deserves some detailing and paint correction. You should hit up some local shop to help you out with that
Realistically, dynos are never accurate from one system to another. They're really just useful for before and after comparison when making modifications to a specific vehicle.
Lotus Omega / Omega Evolution 500 or the Omega V8 4.0
These are rare cars, which makes them even more worth restoring
needs a 60mm turbo!
Do we really believe that a dyno, with all the known and unknown variables, is precise and accurate to one horsepower out of 200 (+/- 0.5%) ?
I doubt it has lost the power. Just needs a tune up more than likely. My Nissan Primera GT made 155BHP 20 years after it rolled out of the factory.
How about doing one or both of my old favourites, Jag XJR, or BMW 850i
What above doing full service and a engine decarbonisation and then another dyno run.
So the dyno under reads, maybe try the mondeo on a different dyno
What about an MG ZT 260? A lovely 4.6 V8 to play with there
EVO build if the moneys there, or if not maybe a 2.5 litre Focus build for more budget.
Mondeo ST 200 mundane? Nah. It's a lovely piece of kit.
Will you run it on the dyno agein when you are done with the cars Update
I would like to see an old S-class for your project
at the cranck or at the wheels?
my mondeo st200 over 400 000 km have 178 KM, over 250 000 mil and 173 BHP with oryginal stock cat in exhaust
I suggest a 5.0L W126 Mercedes. Cheap speed and only increasing in collector value!
I guessed at 165bhp.... thought it might a bit low as it doesn't look like the best kept example out there lol
Take jimmer's skyline and do everything with it that james may wouldnt approve of.
After making this a clean and slightly tuned mondeo though (aim for 220hp or something, nothing too crazy, just a little extra to have on the highway)
I had 154 in my head before seeing this, pretty close to the initial result.
I had 174 in my mind. I had an ST200. Pretty robust car.