You deserve a million views per vid. I don't know how every boater is not eating this content up. Wish you were east coast! You need an operation in FL baby! Keep it up. You're a blessing to our community.
Nice overview Jeff 👍 Drop ins are one way to go for lithium but there are a growing number of boaters and RV'ers that are going the DIY route for lithium we have purchased 560AH of prismatic cells and am documenting the build of the bank on our youtube channel. Going the DIY route it is easier to design separate circuits for charge and load and individually cut off at high voltage or low voltage though this is obviously more complicated than a drop in or a FLA. One thing you forgot to mention was the charging sources that need to be able to support Lithium the alternator needs a more advanced regulator with the ability to cut the field output as a high voltage disconnect and or use a DC to DC charger between a FLA and the lithium this can also add to the cost. It's interesting that people only think about BMS for lithium's. if Lead acids were invented today they would also probably have a BMS to balance and provide a low voltage cut off to protect the cells loving the regular videos keep them coming 😎
thanks for a good Lithium summary. Perhaps something useful would be a table showing the cost-per-amps/hour you get from the various batteries. say an AGM lasts 4 years on average and properly maintained Lithium lasts 8 (making up the numbers here), and 80% usable capacity versus 50%, it would be interesting to compare the AGM versus Lithium for cost per amps provided in the long run.
Agreed. The only meaningful analysis of LFP vs L-A (wet cell, AGM, or GEL) has to look at total life-cycle cost. Initial purchase, which includes all of the required supporting equipment (and labor), and then the total amount of energy that can be extracted (and replaced, obviously) over the useful life of the batteries. It appears that LFP systems might be able to remain in service for at least 10 years (about the max for a really well-maintained AGM system) and perhaps 20 or even 30 years. A good analysis would look at this over a long time frame (large number of discharge/recharge cycles) and would have to include the cost of periodically replacing the L-A batteries (including labor) which, in the case of AGM or GEL, would be a significant cost.
The big emerging issue with Lithium and BMI’s is lightning strikes which can take down a whole system. Other vulnerable components might be CAN bus components. You mentioned in an earlier post a time when electrical circuitry was spread out Naval fashion, I am seriously looking at doing as much of that as I can and in a way that I can faraday shield the cables. Keeping lightning energy out of the boat is vital, and the best way to achieve that is to run a copper wire from the mast head to the gunwale as far away from the mast as possible. I am starting to realise that the way to anticipate what lightning will do is to look at the conductivity of the components along its path. Eg mast, aluminium good conductor, but deck stepped means lightning will go down the mast to the lowest stay then transfer to the stainless steel (poor conductor) then look for wiring to jump to. In my boat the chain plates are inboard so the energy potential is then inside the huil, worst case. I suspect a previous owner strike the energy jumped to heavy winch and bow thruster cables then found a path out through the fridge through hull cooling fitting. ( clues? Copper high temp heating appearance and copper oxide flakes) . Any other evidence and/or strategy theories desperately needed.
Hi Jeff, thanks for the nice videos, I liked your longer, in depth lectures, but the short ones are good for keeping the knowledge "topped up". One question, if it interests: what (particular type/brand of) tools and consumables would you consider for a) carrying along on a trip, and b) for general (re-)wiring work? Do you happen to have a shopping list handy? Thanks a bunch in advance!
You don't have to run a BMS at all - you do need a balance board of some sort and you should make sure your alternator and/or solar charge controller are doing things right (14.6 or less) but aside from that you can run raw and get good results. I've been running LiFePO4 in my cars with over-current charge, over-discharge during cranking and even a full discharge by accident, for over a year, and no loss of cells and no drop in performance AFAICT. The cells I'm using are 8AH Headway 38120HP babies and a minimal set of 4 gives you 320CCA, 200A@10V for 30 seconds, or 160A at some higher voltage between 10V and 12.8V until flat/2.0V per cell. Today I put together a pack of 16 cells for 32AH, 1300CCA, 800A 30 seconds, and 640A continuous for a temporary starting solution for our C series 8 litre cummins turbo diesel in our boat. It has a tiny balance board on it that can only maintain accuracy until about 1A charge/discharge and a little display board showing cell/bank voltages, and that's it. Alternator compatible and starter motor compatible and we're good to go. Just don't run it flat and hope you don't get an alternator failure producing high voltages. Really, that situation should be alarmed on a boat anyway, same for discharge voltage, as soon as you fall off the end of the 12.8 flat-line curve, ring a bell and let the occupants know it's time to shut it off and let the solar or other bank take over.
I think you did a good job on dropins. The DIY banks are getting cheaper and the DC DC chargers are a good way to keep lead acid batteries and run house banks on trips with LFP. Lead Acid is reliable and is still needed for a reliable backup to start our boats and run essential services in case of emergency.
Thanks for an honest assessment. LifePo4 batteries are not drop in replacements for LA. There is a lot to know about them and if you don’t know what you’re doing,they can be destroyed very easily.
Hi Jeff. My boat has 4 x AGMs as House Bank and one AGM starter battery. I am considering Lithium as for double the price, it’s double the capacity, but almost 2.5 times the warranty (11 years vs 4), so it’s actually cheaper in the long run. My question is: what will I need to change in my system? Special HD alternator? Monitors? DC to DC Charger?
From the 3:10 minute mark it was not 100% clear to me. Are there Lithium Batteries combined with a battery management system (BMS), that stop the charging of the battery if the voltage is too high (that's good). But then refuse to charge ever again if the voltage is low enough again? Or is it because the load is also disconnected and the battery can't get to a lower inner voltage? Is the voltage where the BMS disconnects, that of the charging device or the voltage inside the battery?
Yes. A good Battery MANAGEMENT System (not Battery Monitoring System) for LFP batteries will prevent charging for over-voltage, under-voltage, and low temperature, and maintain the charge balance between all of the cells. For some of the higher end suppliers, this is actually part of the battery.
Thanks for this video, Jeff. My situation is probably similar to many others, I have a 40' sailboat with 4 year old AGM house batteries (200aH X 2) and they seem to be holding a charge very well as they are mostly on the charger. I have an 80 Amp alternator that was standard with the Yanmar engine. I have a great inverter/charger/BMS (Magnum Energy). I ran some numbers and I'm OK with replacing my AGM's with Lithium cost wise because of the long term benefit, except (and this is where I have a question for you), would I most likely need to upgrade the alternator because its charging profile is not designed for a Lithium battery? I read about Lithium having much lower charging resistance and a standard alternator overheating. Thanks again - I recommend your videos to everyone at the marina!
Never ever connect an alternator directly to a lithium (or spiral cell AGM) battery. Use a booster (B2B charger) to limit load on the alternator and charge the battery with the correct profile. I also installed a fan in front of my alternator to prevent overheating at low RPM. This is a lesson I learned after frying several alternators.
On our boat we charge an AGM starter battery with the alternator and then charge the Lithiums using a Sterling battery to battery charger with a Lithium charge profile. Has worked fine for the last 12 months...
Totally agree, using a DC to DC charging converter is a good way to recharge a lithium battery instead of connecting to a stock alternator with a internal regulator. We sometime install high output alternators with external regulators that are controlled by the BMS to recharge a Lithium battery, but it gets expensive.
Hi Jeff, would like your latest opinion on the considering the price drops on lithium batteries and that they come pretty much all with a decent BMS integrated. For my part, I am still struggling on how I will isolate the Alternator/Starter batt bank from the house battery while still be able to charge the house bank and not toast the Alternator. I see few options out there from Isolators, DC/DC and more and as usual they all come with pros and cons... maybe a nice subject to tackle.
A few weeks or so ago Jeff answered my questions in a PYS video about installing an ACR. Accordingly, Jeff said I installed it correctly. I installed the green LED status light from my ACR into my dash but didn't notice it indicating anything during my time on the water. My concern now is I don't think the ACR it is working. I installed a new un-switched bilge pump to compliment my switched bilge pump. I did lots of testing the pumps using my house battery. my house battery got down to 11.4 volts. I went fishing and noticed my house battery was not charging very fast. My start battery was at 13.3 volts. My battery selector was on position #1 meaning engine starting only off the start battery and everything else runs off the house battery. I only have a vhf radio and a chart plotter running off the house battery. After an hour I noticed my house battery was only charged to 12.57 volts and my start battery was at 14.11 volts. So I switched the battery selector to position #3 both batteries combined. Within 30 minutes running with combined batteries, the house battery charged up to 14.11. I was mostly trolling at less than 5 mph during this entire time described above.
Jeff, could you answer a general question - what do you recommend for "general electrical maintenance"? What I mean is, Usually electrical is set and forget (for me anyway). Do you recommend sailors do anything on some schedule? e.g. clean connectors every X yrs, replace bulbs every Y yrs, replace wires (??). Just curious what you suggest.
Hi Nick, this is a hard one. What we should do and what we have time to do is different for many of us. This is completely personal, but on my boat, i check the major connections at the battery and switches every 3 months to make sure they don't have corrosion and aren't lose. I also look for signs of overheating, like tarnish metal or discolored insulation on the wire.
Great info Jeff, thanks. I've searched the web, with contradicting results. I've a 150 Suzuki outboard. I want to put in a lithium starting batt., my question is....will the Suzuki alt. charge the lithium? Thanks.
Make sure your Lithium battery is OK with a stock alternator output (i.e. output of 14.4 VDC), another concern is the ratio of your alternator size to your lithium battery bank size.
I have a question???? Victron makes a Cerbo GX device. Great little device that takes in info of whats going on in your boat! BUT!! I have bunch of Blue Smart chargers, 12v to 24v, 12v to 12v for my Li bank and more. Well, even that they both have Bluetooth, the chargers and Cerbo GX don't talk to each other. Is there a way that they can? Is there any options in going this? PLEASE, after spending spending a few grand on this, I can't believe they that these device are not that smart. Thank you!
While I get that most of your target audience is probably motor boats there are some other considerations if solar/hydro/wind are your primary methods. AGM batteries typically need twice the label AH of a lifepo4 battery. E.G. a 800 Ah AGM bank is typically equivalent to ~400 Ah Lifepo4 bank depending on discharge rate etc... Lifepo4 banks will also have about a 90% round trip efficiency while AGM/Lead Acid will have closer to 80% for a full charge and charging efficiencies drop to 50% for the last 20% of capacity to fully charge them. Thus the last 160 Ah of capacity on an 800 Ah AGM bank will take ~320 Ah of input. Also most AGM batteries, if bulk charged at a higher rate than ~0.2c will require a much longer absorption cycle to fully charge the battery. While the load on your generator, charger etc... may be lower for the last 20% and/or the absorption cycle it will still require about the same clock time if you try and charge AGM faster to reach that full charge. As long as you stay below .5c for lifepo4 for most batteries you will have long life and typically shorter charging times for the same usable capacity. You also have the option of charging way faster if the long term life of the battery is of less importance. Make sure to use the usable capacity and not label capacity and consider if your charging sources and charging efficiencies if you want to spend lots of time at anchor or sailing without resorting to the generator. As with most things in life, there is no free lunch and all options have their trade offs.
Thanks for posting this clear explanation. We have 2 Lifeline 4D batteries located forward and below the diesel (Beneteau 473). There is another aft behind the water heater. Battery temp has never been more than 102°. Usually on the 90°s. Would you say that’s okay to put two drop in Lithiums that have a charge rating of 32-114°?
Bill, good question, but unfortunately don't have enough experience with Lithium battery systems in warm climates, probably best to ask battery manufacturer.
Question. If facing a complete refit/rewire, is there any advantage to limiting myself to a 110vac system? My logic tells me that designing for 220 makes more sense. I should still be able to get 110 where needed but have 220 available via inverters for lower amperage draw. What am I missing?
Hi David, deciding on 220 vs 120, depends mostly on the size of the AC loads onboard and also the shorepower and/or generator. Boats with less or smaller AC loads generally are powered by 120 VAC.
Having to reduce 150kg from my boat to meet legal towing compliance behind my trucks tow capacity, lifepo4 is a no brainer. (Replacing 4 large agm batteries is half the job done). What i don't get is why the deep cycle lifepo4 are usually 100-300ah but the drop in crank lifepo4 batteries are only 20-60ah... and far more expensive comparatively?
Please forgive my ignorance on this subject..newbie to boating and Lifepo4 batteries. I recently bought a small boat and a 100ah lifepo4 battery to run the trolling motor and fish finder. Trying to surf the web to see how to hook up both electronics to the battery and really found no help. Is this possible? I really hate to buy a separate battery for the fish finder when I have so little room on the boat and have plenty of juice with this battery. Can you please advise me if this is possible and how might I hook both up to the same battery safely? Do I need a circuit breaker? Thank you in advance.
You'll definitely want to install some circuit protection between your Lithium battery and your trolling motor and electronics. You'll also need a battery switch to disconnect loads from the battery as well.
I plan to go Lithium for my sailboat. I plan to have the battery bank (parallel) recharged by the 160 amp alternator with external regulator when moToring… I am told the battery charge acceptance rate is calculated at 50% of one battery capacity independently if you have one or two. Example: if I have 2 x 100 amp batteries, I could not charge the battery bank at more than 50 amps (at voltage of 14.6). I thought lithium batteries were able to take much charge amps… Am I wrong? Thank you very much for you time. Errol
Internal BMS batteris will have charge limits based on the BMS. If you have 1 battery that can handle 50a charge, The battery and the alt will not care and it will try to put the whole 160a in. If the bms doesn't like it, it will shut off the battery, blowing up the alt in the process. So the charge needs to be controlled externally. The battery can not control how much it takes. Each battery will take it's rated amount. so 3 batteries would take 150a. if you are using a balmar reg you can turn down the belt manager if your bank can not accept 160a. Or use 4 or more batteries. Make sure you have an alt temp sensor on your external alt.
Are there risks with Lithium batteries in terms of over heating, or exposure to water? I only ask because lithium batteries have a nasty history of catching fire/exploding if things go reallllly wrong. Are they safe enough to that we can rely on a physical inspection of the battery fo signs of damage/bulging, or are extra precautions needed?
Hi Jeff. I recently switched my 36 volt M3140-36 lithium ion battery from lithium pros to three 12 volt 50ah lithium batteries from ionic to run my ultrex and also a 101 vantage on the back end of my boat. I have a optima marine blue top for my crank which also runs my electronics but I sometimes drain it down because of the 4 graphs( two 10 inch hummingbirds and two 10 inch garmin units with livescope). My question is can I use the 36 volt battery from lithium pros to power my graphs with some kind of dc to dc step down converter?
Hi Jeff, lately I heard about combining a larger lead acid bank with a smaller Li bank to the benefit for both banks in one system. From your expert view, does it make sense and if yes, what to watch out for?
Hi Jeff "Question". Going Lithium Ion on my boat using my daughters Prius batteries. 2pc 14set at 15.2v. What is my best single option to accommodate all power charging sources, AC, PV, and wind to this bank.?
I have two lithium Batteries 12V 100 amp for my trolling motor I live in south Jersey and will be storing my boat for the winter and would like to know your advice for storing the batteries . Thanks in advance Frank
I can’t find anyone stating that lithium can be charged through the charging system that was created for lead acid. I have seen an alternator charging it but it burned it out because lithium can take faster charge (less internal resistance) than lead acid and it burned out the charging system. Do you have any info on this? Also I’m specifically asking about a Yamaha wave runner.
You are correct, most stock alternators built for lead acid batteries have a very hard time recharging a Lithium battery as the alternators run too hard and get warm and fail.
I am replacing my lead acid batteries on my boat, i choose to stay with lead acid for costs, i am on 12 volts everything , now they offer 24 volts big solar panel, mine al very old. Is It true i can , with some controller, stay in 12 volts with those 24 panels that are much cheaper?
Jeff, in what circumstances other than a runaway alternator can a Lithium get overcharged? I thought one of the major selling points of Lithium is their ability to accept a very high amperage/rate of charge?
Once a Lithium is completely full, you need a way to disconnect charging circuits that might overcharge the lithium battery, otherwise the BMS will protect the battery by disconnecting it from the charging circuits.
@@PacificYachtSystems so as long as I’m on the water and using some voltage via stereo, lights, etc, I should be good? Asking because I am in the process of re-rigging my fishing boat and I’m putting in 1 starter and 2 deep cycle lithium batteries to satisfy starting/house/trolling needs. I have a Yamaha 115 on my boat, which I believe has a 35 amp alternator, so I wouldn’t think I’d ever hit 100% while on the water. The batteries will all 3 be charged via a battery combiner that is specifically made for lithium voltages.
Check out ionic batteries from lithium hub. I just started using them this summer and have had no issues. They have a Bluetooth connection so you can see how many amps they are pulling from the alternator and other information.
I've a small patrol boat that runs on electric trolling motors it uses calcium leisure batteries but it's only good for about 4 hours then they run flat I need more power for longer whats the best batteries to use
Sorry for the confusion, what i meant to say was the went the BMS cut-outs the battery for whatever reason, you'll lose the connection to the battery and have no voltage at all.
You missed out some of the major benefits of LiFePo batteries like massively higher cycle life and a much more consistent output voltage until that 80-90% DOD. Also I believe they can accept a much higher charge rate than Lead batteries.
LiFePo4 batteries will take all the juice that is offered to them until their BMS says they're full. That's why you _need_ to have a charge controller between your charging source(s) and the batteries.
Big fan of the lithium batteries that have a positive load and a positive charging bus. Makes it easy to protect the lithium battery from overcharging and yet still run loads.
@@PacificYachtSystems doesn't work with an inverter charger though. I run a common port lithium which just disables charge transistors when full so it doesn't take anymore current, but still allows current to flow out. I also run an inverter charger and it works very well!
Hi, It maybe a little late for a response, but have a question about lithium batteries which gets me a little hot under the collar. I'm a skipper of our marine rescue boats and when we were putting in a wish list of what we wanted on the boat i said, are we getting lithium batteries instead of those heavy AGM's. Well, the response I got was an absolute no, they will (not may) catch on fire, they are too dangerous, our rescue authority have as far as I know, have blanket ban on lithium batteries on all rescue vessels. This may have been an issue years ago, but what is your opinion on this subject with lithium batteries now. By the way, I have been running a lithium batteries in my Honda CBR1000RR motorcycle now for 8 years and it's great and have 3 100ah lithium batteries in my camper trailer, but really haven't tested them as of yet.
There is no clear winner on batteries, there are pros and cons of both AGM and Lithium batteries. Factors such as cost, weight, cycle life, depth of discharge, voltage sagging, physical size, max charge rate, and complexity all come in to play when choosing a battery for your boat. Check out coming videos on this topic.
@@PacificYachtSystems I agree there is pros and cons, but i still do think lithium batteries only lose out on cost. Some of the bigger brands are stupid prices, but they will be forced to bring down there prices with more competition. Also the cost is nullified with the far longer life. When the cost comes right down, I can't see any reason to buy AGM's.
I built a 500ah, 48v (24kWh) battery with a BMS for less than 4,000$... match that (19.2kWh of usable) with a FLA, or agm.. now match the numbers in life cycle cost, weight and actual usable power... oh yeah I put it in a Catalina 22!
What happens if the boat sinks, and/or the batteries are being submerged in saltwater? Will you be electrocuted, and/or can this cause the batteries to catch fire?
Since saltwater is really conductive, expect the batteries to effectively self-discharge as both the positive and negative post would be connected via salt water.
I was a bit concerned that you didn't mention chemistry for lithium batteries. Under no circumstances would I put Lithium Ion batteries on a boat. There are enough fire hazards on a boat without making it a Roman candle during a fire. On the other hand LiFePO4 are safe. Lithium Titanate, I haven't investigated.
I’ve had 400 amp hours of lithium batteries from battle born. Had them now for about4 years. Best thing I ever did. I could go through lead acid every year so I figure I have now broke even and everything is now a bonus. You are correct in saying do your research. Don’t cheap out with crap from China you might regret that.
Thanks for the all uber informative videos! In this one, you hit every consideration for us except for one -- Service Life. Do lithium batteries have a longer service life in years than lead-acid chemistries? Our AGM batteries are 8 years old, so it’s time… In six years we’re casting off the dock lines to live the tropical cruiser dream. It will be hard to get the capacity we need for life aboard, so lithium is attractive on that consideration. But if we buy them now, will we have to replace them again in another 6 years or so like we would for AGM like we have now? Some information on the web suggests lithium can have a service life of 10+ years. We have a 40’ Caliber LRC in Blaine, Washington. Do you guys do any work in Washington? If not, is there anyone you recommend? Eric
Good point Eric, Lithium batteries have a way longer battery life (i.e. battery cycles) then lead acid batteries. As of yet, PYS doesn't have operations in Washington state, although we are exploring opening an office there.
Lifepo4-batteries don't like to be fully charged all the time. AGM want that.! So if you don't use your boat for a few months you need to "activate" a special loading behaviour from your shore ore solar power. Otherwise your Lifepo4-batteries are fully charged all the time. That's ok if you use them regularly. But not to store them for months. You can't swap an AGM which is connected to the alternator directly with an Lifepo4! You need a good BMS which make sure you don't charge the batteries on low temperatures (winter). This can destroy the hold Lifepo4-batterie-bank..... There is a lot to consider and a lot to study/change around a swap from AGM to lithium batteries.
@@PacificYachtSystems I still run my AGMs! I investigated a lot of time since many years, looking at the lithium-batteries. But to be honest: Yes the are now cheaper and if you buy raw cells from China directly, they are in the price region where you buy quality AGM batteries. But there is a lot of "things" you have to think around them.... Charging them on cold temperatures will destroy the hold batterybank forever. Yes. There are systems who can detect low temperature and disconect the charging procedure. But you ad a lot of "things" with this battery type. Also the BMS (external or internal) is an additional component which can be a source of trouble. And you don't change only "a battery" if you move from AGM or flooded batteries to Lithium... And as I mentioned if you want to store your lithium-batteries for a few months you need to "cycle" them or to activate a special charging routine who will keep the batteries at around 50% of capacity. They don't like to be stored fully charged like AGM-batteries. For charging lithium-batteries you need an alternator with an external regulator where you can adjust the special loading curves for lithium-batteries. A Litium-batterie connected directly to your alternator can fry the diodes in the alternator especialy on low rpms. There is a youtube video from Victron where you can see this. And if you have a solar charger you have to make sure that you can adjust the charging characteristics too. You have to check all your charging units.... You have to avoid the voltage to exeed 13.6V (depending of the manufacturer). A good BMS will safe your lithiums against that overvolatage too. Victron has a good lithium-system. But this is still in a price range where you can't reach a lot of people.... I like to have electrical things as simple and stable as possible. If you have a stable AGM-system installed it makes no sense for me to change to lithium batteries.
Good luck, lithium is a ticking time bomb can explode and catch fire . I will stick with the old school batteries. Don't be a fool listening to this guy . Boat fire 🔥
I just love how extensive your notes were for this segment on your clipboard.
Thanks Christopher, much appreciated.
Jeff seems to take the Amy Coney Barrett approach to notes.
You deserve a million views per vid. I don't know how every boater is not eating this content up. Wish you were east coast! You need an operation in FL baby! Keep it up. You're a blessing to our community.
Thanks Ryan, appreciate the feedback.
Nice overview Jeff 👍 Drop ins are one way to go for lithium but there are a growing number of boaters and RV'ers that are going the DIY route for lithium we have purchased 560AH of prismatic cells and am documenting the build of the bank on our youtube channel.
Going the DIY route it is easier to design separate circuits for charge and load and individually cut off at high voltage or low voltage though this is obviously more complicated than a drop in or a FLA.
One thing you forgot to mention was the charging sources that need to be able to support Lithium the alternator needs a more advanced regulator with the ability to cut the field output as a high voltage disconnect and or use a DC to DC charger between a FLA and the lithium this can also add to the cost.
It's interesting that people only think about BMS for lithium's. if Lead acids were invented today they would also probably have a BMS to balance and provide a low voltage cut off to protect the cells
loving the regular videos keep them coming 😎
Thanks for sharing Boatingtube, good point on the alternators and regulators for Lithium.
thanks for a good Lithium summary. Perhaps something useful would be a table showing the cost-per-amps/hour you get from the various batteries. say an AGM lasts 4 years on average and properly maintained Lithium lasts 8 (making up the numbers here), and 80% usable capacity versus 50%, it would be interesting to compare the AGM versus Lithium for cost per amps provided in the long run.
Great suggestion!
Agreed. The only meaningful analysis of LFP vs L-A (wet cell, AGM, or GEL) has to look at total life-cycle cost. Initial purchase, which includes all of the required supporting equipment (and labor), and then the total amount of energy that can be extracted (and replaced, obviously) over the useful life of the batteries. It appears that LFP systems might be able to remain in service for at least 10 years (about the max for a really well-maintained AGM system) and perhaps 20 or even 30 years. A good analysis would look at this over a long time frame (large number of discharge/recharge cycles) and would have to include the cost of periodically replacing the L-A batteries (including labor) which, in the case of AGM or GEL, would be a significant cost.
The big emerging issue with Lithium and BMI’s is lightning strikes which can take down a whole system. Other vulnerable components might be CAN bus components. You mentioned in an earlier post a time when electrical circuitry was spread out Naval fashion, I am seriously looking at doing as much of that as I can and in a way that I can faraday shield the cables. Keeping lightning energy out of the boat is vital, and the best way to achieve that is to run a copper wire from the mast head to the gunwale as far away from the mast as possible. I am starting to realise that the way to anticipate what lightning will do is to look at the conductivity of the components along its path. Eg mast, aluminium good conductor, but deck stepped means lightning will go down the mast to the lowest stay then transfer to the stainless steel (poor conductor) then look for wiring to jump to. In my boat the chain plates are inboard so the energy potential is then inside the huil, worst case. I suspect a previous owner strike the energy jumped to heavy winch and bow thruster cables then found a path out through the fridge through hull cooling fitting. ( clues? Copper high temp heating appearance and copper oxide flakes) . Any other evidence and/or strategy theories desperately needed.
Hi Jeff, thanks for the nice videos, I liked your longer, in depth lectures, but the short ones are good for keeping the knowledge "topped up". One question, if it interests: what (particular type/brand of) tools and consumables would you consider for a) carrying along on a trip, and b) for general (re-)wiring work? Do you happen to have a shopping list handy? Thanks a bunch in advance!
You don't have to run a BMS at all - you do need a balance board of some sort and you should make sure your alternator and/or solar charge controller are doing things right (14.6 or less) but aside from that you can run raw and get good results. I've been running LiFePO4 in my cars with over-current charge, over-discharge during cranking and even a full discharge by accident, for over a year, and no loss of cells and no drop in performance AFAICT. The cells I'm using are 8AH Headway 38120HP babies and a minimal set of 4 gives you 320CCA, 200A@10V for 30 seconds, or 160A at some higher voltage between 10V and 12.8V until flat/2.0V per cell. Today I put together a pack of 16 cells for 32AH, 1300CCA, 800A 30 seconds, and 640A continuous for a temporary starting solution for our C series 8 litre cummins turbo diesel in our boat. It has a tiny balance board on it that can only maintain accuracy until about 1A charge/discharge and a little display board showing cell/bank voltages, and that's it. Alternator compatible and starter motor compatible and we're good to go. Just don't run it flat and hope you don't get an alternator failure producing high voltages. Really, that situation should be alarmed on a boat anyway, same for discharge voltage, as soon as you fall off the end of the 12.8 flat-line curve, ring a bell and let the occupants know it's time to shut it off and let the solar or other bank take over.
I think you did a good job on dropins. The DIY banks are getting cheaper and the DC DC chargers are a good way to keep lead acid batteries and run house banks on trips with LFP. Lead Acid is reliable and is still needed for a reliable backup to start our boats and run essential services in case of emergency.
Good points Danny.
Thanks for an honest assessment. LifePo4 batteries are not drop in replacements for LA. There is a lot to know about them and if you don’t know what you’re doing,they can be destroyed very easily.
Yep, it's all about preparation.
great info, thanks Jeff
Glad to help, thanks for watching!
Hi Jeff. My boat has 4 x AGMs as House Bank and one AGM starter battery. I am considering Lithium as for double the price, it’s double the capacity, but almost 2.5 times the warranty (11 years vs 4), so it’s actually cheaper in the long run. My question is: what will I need to change in my system? Special HD alternator? Monitors? DC to DC Charger?
From the 3:10 minute mark it was not 100% clear to me.
Are there Lithium Batteries combined with a battery management system (BMS), that stop the charging of the battery if the voltage is too high (that's good).
But then refuse to charge ever again if the voltage is low enough again?
Or is it because the load is also disconnected and the battery can't get to a lower inner voltage?
Is the voltage where the BMS disconnects, that of the charging device or the voltage inside the battery?
Yes. A good Battery MANAGEMENT System (not Battery Monitoring System) for LFP batteries will prevent charging for over-voltage, under-voltage, and low temperature, and maintain the charge balance between all of the cells. For some of the higher end suppliers, this is actually part of the battery.
Thanks Bruce for sharing and answering Rudi's question.
Thanks for this video, Jeff. My situation is probably similar to many others, I have a 40' sailboat with 4 year old AGM house batteries (200aH X 2) and they seem to be holding a charge very well as they are mostly on the charger. I have an 80 Amp alternator that was standard with the Yanmar engine. I have a great inverter/charger/BMS (Magnum Energy). I ran some numbers and I'm OK with replacing my AGM's with Lithium cost wise because of the long term benefit, except (and this is where I have a question for you), would I most likely need to upgrade the alternator because its charging profile is not designed for a Lithium battery? I read about Lithium having much lower charging resistance and a standard alternator overheating. Thanks again - I recommend your videos to everyone at the marina!
Never ever connect an alternator directly to a lithium (or spiral cell AGM) battery. Use a booster (B2B charger) to limit load on the alternator and charge the battery with the correct profile.
I also installed a fan in front of my alternator to prevent overheating at low RPM. This is a lesson I learned after frying several alternators.
On our boat we charge an AGM starter battery with the alternator and then charge the Lithiums using a Sterling battery to battery charger with a Lithium charge profile. Has worked fine for the last 12 months...
Totally agree, using a DC to DC charging converter is a good way to recharge a lithium battery instead of connecting to a stock alternator with a internal regulator. We sometime install high output alternators with external regulators that are controlled by the BMS to recharge a Lithium battery, but it gets expensive.
Hi Jeff, would like your latest opinion on the considering the price drops on lithium batteries and that they come pretty much all with a decent BMS integrated. For my part, I am still struggling on how I will isolate the Alternator/Starter batt bank from the house battery while still be able to charge the house bank and not toast the Alternator. I see few options out there from Isolators, DC/DC and more and as usual they all come with pros and cons... maybe a nice subject to tackle.
Thanks for the suggestion!
A few weeks or so ago Jeff answered my questions in a PYS video about installing an ACR. Accordingly, Jeff said I installed it correctly. I installed the green LED status light from my ACR into my dash but didn't notice it indicating anything during my time on the water. My concern now is I don't think the ACR it is working. I installed a new un-switched bilge pump to compliment my switched bilge pump. I did lots of testing the pumps using my house battery. my house battery got down to 11.4 volts. I went fishing and noticed my house battery was not charging very fast. My start battery was at 13.3 volts. My battery selector was on position #1 meaning engine starting only off the start battery and everything else runs off the house battery. I only have a vhf radio and a chart plotter running off the house battery. After an hour I noticed my house battery was only charged to 12.57 volts and my start battery was at 14.11 volts. So I switched the battery selector to position #3 both batteries combined. Within 30 minutes running with combined batteries, the house battery charged up to 14.11. I was mostly trolling at less than 5 mph during this entire time described above.
Hi Steve, the ACR triggers at about 13.3 volt at the ACR... try to get voltage higher at the ACR to see if the ACR will combiner your batteries.
Jeff, could you answer a general question - what do you recommend for "general electrical maintenance"? What I mean is, Usually electrical is set and forget (for me anyway). Do you recommend sailors do anything on some schedule? e.g. clean connectors every X yrs, replace bulbs every Y yrs, replace wires (??). Just curious what you suggest.
Hi Nick, this is a hard one. What we should do and what we have time to do is different for many of us. This is completely personal, but on my boat, i check the major connections at the battery and switches every 3 months to make sure they don't have corrosion and aren't lose. I also look for signs of overheating, like tarnish metal or discolored insulation on the wire.
I think this would be a great topic for the Ask PYS series of videos.
Great information - exactly what I was looking for.
Glad it was helpful!
Great info Jeff, thanks. I've searched the web, with contradicting results. I've a 150 Suzuki outboard. I want to put in a lithium starting batt., my question is....will the Suzuki alt. charge the lithium? Thanks.
Make sure your Lithium battery is OK with a stock alternator output (i.e. output of 14.4 VDC), another concern is the ratio of your alternator size to your lithium battery bank size.
I have a question???? Victron makes a Cerbo GX device. Great little device that takes in info of whats going on in your boat! BUT!!
I have bunch of Blue Smart chargers, 12v to 24v, 12v to 12v for my Li bank and more. Well, even that they both have Bluetooth, the chargers and Cerbo GX don't talk to each other. Is there a way that they can? Is there any options in going this? PLEASE, after spending spending a few grand on this, I can't believe they that these device are not that smart. Thank you!
Are there insurance companies that will not insure you if you have lithium a battery?
While I get that most of your target audience is probably motor boats there are some other considerations if solar/hydro/wind are your primary methods.
AGM batteries typically need twice the label AH of a lifepo4 battery. E.G. a 800 Ah AGM bank is typically equivalent to ~400 Ah Lifepo4 bank depending on discharge rate etc... Lifepo4 banks will also have about a 90% round trip efficiency while AGM/Lead Acid will have closer to 80% for a full charge and charging efficiencies drop to 50% for the last 20% of capacity to fully charge them.
Thus the last 160 Ah of capacity on an 800 Ah AGM bank will take ~320 Ah of input. Also most AGM batteries, if bulk charged at a higher rate than ~0.2c will require a much longer absorption cycle to fully charge the battery. While the load on your generator, charger etc... may be lower for the last 20% and/or the absorption cycle it will still require about the same clock time if you try and charge AGM faster to reach that full charge. As long as you stay below .5c for lifepo4 for most batteries you will have long life and typically shorter charging times for the same usable capacity. You also have the option of charging way faster if the long term life of the battery is of less importance.
Make sure to use the usable capacity and not label capacity and consider if your charging sources and charging efficiencies if you want to spend lots of time at anchor or sailing without resorting to the generator.
As with most things in life, there is no free lunch and all options have their trade offs.
Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for posting this clear explanation. We have 2 Lifeline 4D batteries located forward and below the diesel (Beneteau 473). There is another aft behind the water heater. Battery temp has never been more than 102°. Usually on the 90°s. Would you say that’s okay to put two drop in Lithiums that have a charge rating of 32-114°?
Bill, good question, but unfortunately don't have enough experience with Lithium battery systems in warm climates, probably best to ask battery manufacturer.
عميق الامتنان لجميل علمكم
Question.
If facing a complete refit/rewire, is there any advantage to limiting myself to a 110vac system? My logic tells me that designing for 220 makes more sense. I should still be able to get 110 where needed but have 220 available via inverters for lower amperage draw. What am I missing?
Hi David, deciding on 220 vs 120, depends mostly on the size of the AC loads onboard and also the shorepower and/or generator. Boats with less or smaller AC loads generally are powered by 120 VAC.
Having to reduce 150kg from my boat to meet legal towing compliance behind my trucks tow capacity, lifepo4 is a no brainer. (Replacing 4 large agm batteries is half the job done).
What i don't get is why the deep cycle lifepo4 are usually 100-300ah but the drop in crank lifepo4 batteries are only 20-60ah... and far more expensive comparatively?
Good question easinbox, unfortunately, don't know the answer. Anyone else can weigh on why the cost differences.
Please forgive my ignorance on this subject..newbie to boating and Lifepo4 batteries. I recently bought a small boat and a 100ah lifepo4 battery to run the trolling motor and fish finder. Trying to surf the web to see how to hook up both electronics to the battery and really found no help. Is this possible? I really hate to buy a separate battery for the fish finder when I have so little room on the boat and have plenty of juice with this battery. Can you please advise me if this is possible and how might I hook both up to the same battery safely? Do I need a circuit breaker? Thank you in advance.
You'll definitely want to install some circuit protection between your Lithium battery and your trolling motor and electronics. You'll also need a battery switch to disconnect loads from the battery as well.
I plan to go Lithium for my sailboat. I plan to have the battery bank (parallel) recharged by the 160 amp alternator with external regulator when moToring… I am told the battery charge acceptance rate is calculated at 50% of one battery capacity independently if you have one or two. Example: if I have 2 x 100 amp batteries, I could not charge the battery bank at more than 50 amps (at voltage of 14.6). I thought lithium batteries were able to take much charge amps… Am I wrong?
Thank you very much for you time.
Errol
Internal BMS batteris will have charge limits based on the BMS. If you have 1 battery that can handle 50a charge, The battery and the alt will not care and it will try to put the whole 160a in. If the bms doesn't like it, it will shut off the battery, blowing up the alt in the process. So the charge needs to be controlled externally. The battery can not control how much it takes.
Each battery will take it's rated amount. so 3 batteries would take 150a. if you are using a balmar reg you can turn down the belt manager if your bank can not accept 160a. Or use 4 or more batteries. Make sure you have an alt temp sensor on your external alt.
Are there risks with Lithium batteries in terms of over heating, or exposure to water? I only ask because lithium batteries have a nasty history of catching fire/exploding if things go reallllly wrong. Are they safe enough to that we can rely on a physical inspection of the battery fo signs of damage/bulging, or are extra precautions needed?
Hi Jeff. I recently switched my 36 volt M3140-36 lithium ion battery from lithium pros to three 12 volt 50ah lithium batteries from ionic to run my ultrex and also a 101 vantage on the back end of my boat. I have a optima marine blue top for my crank which also runs my electronics but I sometimes drain it down because of the 4 graphs( two 10 inch hummingbirds and two 10 inch garmin units with livescope). My question is can I use the 36 volt battery from lithium pros to power my graphs with some kind of dc to dc step down converter?
Yep, you are looking for a 36 VDC to 12 VDC power converter.
Hi Jeff, lately I heard about combining a larger lead acid bank with a smaller Li bank to the benefit for both banks in one system. From your expert view, does it make sense and if yes, what to watch out for?
Heard about it too... still unsure of any unforeseen consequences. With time, we will know if it's a good idea, sounds promising.
Thanks Jeff
Hi Jeff "Question". Going Lithium Ion on my boat using my daughters Prius batteries. 2pc 14set at 15.2v. What is my best single option to accommodate all power charging sources, AC, PV, and wind to this bank.?
All large battery banks should have a positive and negative high amperage bus bars connected to the battery bank.
I have two lithium Batteries 12V 100 amp for my trolling motor I live in south Jersey and will be storing my boat for the winter and would like to know your advice for storing the batteries .
Thanks in advance
Frank
Watch out for freezing, some LiFeP04 batteries don't like temperatures below 5 degrees Celsius.
I can’t find anyone stating that lithium can be charged through the charging system that was created for lead acid. I have seen an alternator charging it but it burned it out because lithium can take faster charge (less internal resistance) than lead acid and it burned out the charging system. Do you have any info on this? Also I’m specifically asking about a Yamaha wave runner.
You are correct, most stock alternators built for lead acid batteries have a very hard time recharging a Lithium battery as the alternators run too hard and get warm and fail.
Pacific Yacht Systems thank you. I figured that was the case when being told by others that “yeah, it should charge it just fine.”
I have on good information from a marine insurer that underwriters are declining to insure yachts with lithium batteries!
Interesting.
I am replacing my lead acid batteries on my boat, i choose to stay with lead acid for costs, i am on 12 volts everything , now they offer 24 volts big solar panel, mine al very old. Is It true i can , with some controller, stay in 12 volts with those 24 panels that are much cheaper?
Jeff, in what circumstances other than a runaway alternator can a Lithium get overcharged? I thought one of the major selling points of Lithium is their ability to accept a very high amperage/rate of charge?
Once a Lithium is completely full, you need a way to disconnect charging circuits that might overcharge the lithium battery, otherwise the BMS will protect the battery by disconnecting it from the charging circuits.
@@PacificYachtSystems so as long as I’m on the water and using some voltage via stereo, lights, etc, I should be good? Asking because I am in the process of re-rigging my fishing boat and I’m putting in 1 starter and 2 deep cycle lithium batteries to satisfy starting/house/trolling needs. I have a Yamaha 115 on my boat, which I believe has a 35 amp alternator, so I wouldn’t think I’d ever hit 100% while on the water. The batteries will all 3 be charged via a battery combiner that is specifically made for lithium voltages.
curious about the specifics of using a lithium battery for cranking. What does that battery need for a 250 hp engine?
Hmmm, never installed a Lithium on a starter circuit before. Anyone can share their experiences.
Check out ionic batteries from lithium hub. I just started using them this summer and have had no issues. They have a Bluetooth connection so you can see how many amps they are pulling from the alternator and other information.
lithiumhub.com/product/12-volt-125ah-battery/. Here's the link to their website. I hope that helps 🙂
@@chachi5975 Already went to Eternal Lithium. Have their cranking and 36V big ole battery and both are AWESOME!
I've a small patrol boat that runs on electric trolling motors it uses calcium leisure batteries but it's only good for about 4 hours then they run flat I need more power for longer whats the best batteries to use
Thanks for sharing.
How do I keep the battery within 62 degrees fishing in the summer?
Good question, not sure... lots of ice?
When you mentioned that one can "lose" their battery bank did you mean that the BMS caused a temporary outage or that the bank ended up kaput?
Sorry for the confusion, what i meant to say was the went the BMS cut-outs the battery for whatever reason, you'll lose the connection to the battery and have no voltage at all.
You missed out some of the major benefits of LiFePo batteries like massively higher cycle life and a much more consistent output voltage until that 80-90% DOD. Also I believe they can accept a much higher charge rate than Lead batteries.
All good points Jason. Thanks for adding to the conversation.
LiFePo4 batteries will take all the juice that is offered to them until their BMS says they're full. That's why you _need_ to have a charge controller between your charging source(s) and the batteries.
There are batteries with bms and only two connections, plus and minus, that just disconnect charging when full and disconnect discharging when empty.
Big fan of the lithium batteries that have a positive load and a positive charging bus. Makes it easy to protect the lithium battery from overcharging and yet still run loads.
@@PacificYachtSystems doesn't work with an inverter charger though. I run a common port lithium which just disables charge transistors when full so it doesn't take anymore current, but still allows current to flow out. I also run an inverter charger and it works very well!
Hi, It maybe a little late for a response, but have a question about lithium batteries which gets me a little hot under the collar. I'm a skipper of our marine rescue boats and when we were putting in a wish list of what we wanted on the boat i said, are we getting lithium batteries instead of those heavy AGM's.
Well, the response I got was an absolute no, they will (not may) catch on fire, they are too dangerous, our rescue authority have as far as I know, have blanket ban on lithium batteries on all rescue vessels. This may have been an issue years ago, but what is your opinion on this subject with lithium batteries now.
By the way, I have been running a lithium batteries in my Honda CBR1000RR motorcycle now for 8 years and it's great and have 3 100ah lithium batteries in my camper trailer, but really haven't tested them as of yet.
There is no clear winner on batteries, there are pros and cons of both AGM and Lithium batteries. Factors such as cost, weight, cycle life, depth of discharge, voltage sagging, physical size, max charge rate, and complexity all come in to play when choosing a battery for your boat. Check out coming videos on this topic.
@@PacificYachtSystems I agree there is pros and cons, but i still do think lithium batteries only lose out on cost. Some of the bigger brands are stupid prices, but they will be forced to bring down there prices with more competition. Also the cost is nullified with the far longer life. When the cost comes right down, I can't see any reason to buy AGM's.
I built a 500ah, 48v (24kWh) battery with a BMS for less than 4,000$... match that (19.2kWh of usable) with a FLA, or agm.. now match the numbers in life cycle cost, weight and actual usable power... oh yeah I put it in a Catalina 22!
Thanks for sharing.
What happens if the boat sinks, and/or the batteries are being submerged in saltwater? Will you be electrocuted, and/or can this cause the batteries to catch fire?
Since saltwater is really conductive, expect the batteries to effectively self-discharge as both the positive and negative post would be connected via salt water.
@@PacificYachtSystems yes, but will you not get tazed if you fall in?
I was a bit concerned that you didn't mention chemistry for lithium batteries. Under no circumstances would I put Lithium Ion batteries on a boat. There are enough fire hazards on a boat without making it a Roman candle during a fire. On the other hand LiFePO4 are safe. Lithium Titanate, I haven't investigated.
Hi Wray, good clarification. Yep, definitely talking about LiFePO4 batteries.
Forgot LiFePO4 can't be charged below freezing, or you'll destroy the expensive batteries.
I’ve had 400 amp hours of lithium batteries from battle born. Had them now for about4 years. Best thing I ever did. I could go through lead acid every year so I figure I have now broke even and everything is now a bonus. You are correct in saying do your research. Don’t cheap out with crap from China you might regret that.
We are currently using battleborn on most of our lithium installs
Thanks for the all uber informative videos! In this one, you hit every consideration for us except for one -- Service Life. Do lithium batteries have a longer service life in years than lead-acid chemistries?
Our AGM batteries are 8 years old, so it’s time… In six years we’re casting off the dock lines to live the tropical cruiser dream. It will be hard to get the capacity we need for life aboard, so lithium is attractive on that consideration. But if we buy them now, will we have to replace them again in another 6 years or so like we would for AGM like we have now? Some information on the web suggests lithium can have a service life of 10+ years.
We have a 40’ Caliber LRC in Blaine, Washington. Do you guys do any work in Washington? If not, is there anyone you recommend?
Eric
Good point Eric, Lithium batteries have a way longer battery life (i.e. battery cycles) then lead acid batteries.
As of yet, PYS doesn't have operations in Washington state, although we are exploring opening an office there.
BMS cutoffs should never happen. If they do, something is wrong. It is like a fuse that should blow only in an emergency.
Your right they shouldn't. All too often it's a internal regulated alternator that is running for too long that isn't controlled by the BMS.
Lifepo4-batteries don't like to be fully charged all the time. AGM want that.! So if you don't use your boat for a few months you need to "activate" a special loading behaviour from your shore ore solar power. Otherwise your Lifepo4-batteries are fully charged all the time. That's ok if you use them regularly. But not to store them for months.
You can't swap an AGM which is connected to the alternator directly with an Lifepo4! You need a good BMS which make sure you don't charge the batteries on low temperatures (winter). This can destroy the hold Lifepo4-batterie-bank..... There is a lot to consider and a lot to study/change around a swap from AGM to lithium batteries.
Thanks for sharing Peter. Which Lithium battery do you have onboard?
@@PacificYachtSystems I still run my AGMs!
I investigated a lot of time since many years, looking at the lithium-batteries. But to be honest: Yes the are now cheaper and if you buy raw cells from China directly, they are in the price region where you buy quality AGM batteries. But there is a lot of "things" you have to think around them.... Charging them on cold temperatures will destroy the hold batterybank forever. Yes. There are systems who can detect low temperature and disconect the charging procedure. But you ad a lot of "things" with this battery type. Also the BMS (external or internal) is an additional component which can be a source of trouble. And you don't change only "a battery" if you move from AGM or flooded batteries to Lithium... And as I mentioned if you want to store your lithium-batteries for a few months you need to "cycle" them or to activate a special charging routine who will keep the batteries at around 50% of capacity. They don't like to be stored fully charged like AGM-batteries.
For charging lithium-batteries you need an alternator with an external regulator where you can adjust the special loading curves for lithium-batteries. A Litium-batterie connected directly to your alternator can fry the diodes in the alternator especialy on low rpms. There is a youtube video from Victron where you can see this. And if you have a solar charger you have to make sure that you can adjust the charging characteristics too. You have to check all your charging units.... You have to avoid the voltage to exeed 13.6V (depending of the manufacturer). A good BMS will safe your lithiums against that overvolatage too. Victron has a good lithium-system. But this is still in a price range where you can't reach a lot of people....
I like to have electrical things as simple and stable as possible. If you have a stable AGM-system installed it makes no sense for me to change to lithium batteries.
Lithium is cheaper than or equal to agm, why does everyone claim more $$$??
100
Thanks Javier!
Good luck, lithium is a ticking time bomb can explode and catch fire . I will stick with the old school batteries. Don't be a fool listening to this guy . Boat fire 🔥
That was a fizzer Jeff. Go into some detail with your videos, for everyone's benefit please.
Hi Ralph, thanks for the feedback.