How many comments are gonna be below that say "6v6" to parrot the opinions of others without actually watching the video? (you're only allowed to parrot MY opinions...)
Putting aside 5v5 and 6v6 and heck even the balance argument, being the only person responsible for being the front line of your team with most of the responsibilities isn't fun imho.
@@demetusbrown1962 you are but you aren't in a way. you aren't in a sense that dps and supports are also creating space through their cooldowns. but you are in the sense that without you there, no one else can get much value or space at all. the games winnability is tied to the skill level of the tank you get, and it's almost entirely out of your hands if your don't have a tank who can competently take space.
As a tank main, it's part of the appeal for me. I want to be the most important piece on the board. The problem is that right now tanks get deleted like paper and are too weak to hard counters.
And the funny thing is, it gets more bearable if you have an "off-tank dps" like reaper or mei helping you on the frontline. almost like every role should just have 2 slots...
I think the direction they're going with venture is a nice way to split up that responsibility. She feels like a bruiser type character with her shield generation, but also feels like she can get in and out of fights easily like an assassin with her kit. So if you get turned on by 1 or 2 people, some nice ability usage and good positioning and timing can make you able to actually fight them.
My off the wall idea for the 'getting value feels bad' problem on tank is to lean more into Overwatch's strong characterization. Literally just add little character voice dabs for the things you want players to do. There are already tons of special lines for certain interactions, like if Ana kills an ulting Pharah. If 4 enemies hit Rein's shield within 3 seconds he shouts 'HAH! ALL EYES ON ME!' Maybe if Hog gets slept, he says 'Just wait til I get back up...' or if Winston jumps away at low health and survives, he laughs at the enemies. Give some indication that the characters WANT to draw attention. They WANT cooldowns to be wasted on them. It's obiously not a solution to the problem, but I think it would be fun and help gently guide noobs to do effective things.
That actually sounds fuckin awesome because it just feeds off the psychology of the tank taking all the attention... damn I'm on board Rein saying "HAHAHA IS THAT ALL YOU GOT!?!?!?"
Join the OW2 team immediately Ram has a voice line when entering Nemesis form, where enemies here the usual "ur getting curved fool" allies here "They will target me. Let them!" Things like that we def need more of for more teamwork
bro Spilo I don't know how you have the patience to deal with these chatters, the "how do I rank up" guy who spams his essay every 20 seconds would make me implode on the spot
@@philistine3260 yeah well honestly it makes sense that the person in question shares both "I'm the most important person in the chat and you are obliged to answer my essay immediately" and "I'm the best player in the game but always have a thrower so I lose" mentalities. different sides of the same coin :)
yeah i mean with valo people are teaching you to just hold angles and shit, while ow players need to know every single interaction with every heroes, maps, and many more no wonder it sounded like a fucking professor xd
I mean, not thinking philosophically is why the transfer to 5v5 went so poorly. We didn't anticipate support players struggling with proactivity. We didn't anticipate the rock/paper/scissors + tank focus of removing of one tank, etc. The vast majority of game design isn't just number tweaks, but actually the theory/vision of how psychology works in a competitive environment (same kind of stuff is why board games like Monopoly suck). I find it fascinating and a much more productive method of solving what the game actually needs than just buffing this and nerfing that.
I know personally I preferred to play the entire cast of tank because it was more so about complementing my other tank/team. Now I just swap because if I don’t my team doesn’t have a tank at all.
Basically what I'm hearing is doom is the perfect tank if block wasnt so poorly designed. He's small, mobile, doesn't have insane HP pool. Damage is not free, cd cycle is fun.
One thing I think you missed is the "blame" factor. how often the entire loss is blamed on the tank. this is less of a prevalent factor in organized teams, but is one on the ranked ladder. This also enforces the "I did nothing" factor of tank as you and others dont understand the value of tank. Maybe i'm mad, but I feel this is an important aspect.
The problem with 5v5 and its Tank balance is that it fundamentally limits the type of gameplay Tanks (and the entire team in tandem) can have and do to be effective at all. People can say that 6v6 did the same thing all they want but that was with an antiquated off Tank/ main Tank design and several years of neglect on top of that. Meanwhile, 5v5 does it (with regular balance patches!) by simply making its entire philosophy revolve around the Tank role's deficits at the expense of everyone including DPS, who only stopped complaining about their lack of impact in Overwatch _in general_ once *you gave them a simple passive* to cut through the healing creep that was only ever put in place to offset the lack of another Tank in the first place. I maintain that the generalization of Tanks into brawlers while adding role passives and some Support sustain would have gone much better in a 6v6 OW2, where synergies could have been tackled on a more modular level without making every Tank a raid boss the entire team must focus to win or the easiest to ignore with no in-between. (AMA)
the healing creep wasn't made to combat the lack of a tank. That was just leftover unintended side effect of keeping the numbers the same. The self survivability and dual ability of the new supports absolutely was a result of removing a tank.
@@ryanp652 If I recall, those things were buffed specifically due to Support complaints that DPS and Tank were mopping the floor with them. “Healing creep” was just a logical extension of what that meant for the game, just as "dual ability" meant enabling those same Supports to have both the most powerful abilities in the game on cooldown and the ability to regularly outduel DPS. *The outcome’s the same: Nothing in 5v5 will ever be more impactful than the loss of another Tank* and yet still, _incredibly simple changes_ towards OW1's outdated gameplay mechanics remain infinitely more impactful towards the game, than the decision to go 5v5 was ever at its core.
If you want a example of a "sniper tank" just look at how tanks work in a Battlefield game, but even there you cant just camp on a hill and shoot. In order to be effect at your job you must advance and rotate around areas of interest to actually create space. A more relatable example would be Ash and Atlas from Paladins, both can poke and even out snipe other dps but its a situational thing, in most situations they need to be close to be more effective
A small UI implementation that could make shooting the tank slightly less attractive could be to have your ULT charge meter flashing red when shooting tank. This will at least show the player the effect of reduced ult charge in some way
29:03 really? I'm not on nobody's side here but I do listen to the discussions pretty regularly. I don't think I've heard Samito argue that extremes were fine in 6v6. Every argument I've seen him make, His point is that Tank designs could be more varied and accommodate to more play styles. His argument is homogenization makes tank a boring and unfun role to play and bottle necks the devs to make certain decisions that are only bandaid solutions to a format problem. His argument for 6v6 is that we can have more varied play styles and synergies which to him is what made OW fun AND it would be easier to balance. Never heard Samito being in favor of broken characters/ extremes because he hated Sigma and Brig, he also thinks double shield sucked but it could have been fixed. Not arguing or anything just trying to lay out what I think he is trying to argue from what I've seen from him.
spilo is unfortunately disingenuously framing samitos words to further his argument. i'm sure that at some time samito has used the words "extreme" but he's pretty much always clarified and specified further.
Change the scoreboard. Bigger number = better person, this is how it is viewed in every game. Make tanks take 50% less damage and adjust their health so the visible impact of the scoreboard isn't as rewarding for mindlessly shooting the fat guy/girl. People will farm the tank all match, do the minimum 1 damage on a squishy and have a filled AF stat sheet thinking they did anything benefitting their team. When in reality they just gave the enemy Kiriko 69 kitsune rushes in a single KOTH map. You could also breakdown damage based on who you did damage to so people can see who is just shooting the tank all game and get shamed into making better decisions.
You say that having two bad picks on tank in ow1 (hog and mauga on havana) is a downside to 6v6, but this makes no sense. If anything this problem is worse in 5v5. In 5v5 there is still going to be people locking hog on havana, but now there is no chance of another tank picking a hero to compensate for the weaknesses of the hog pick (for example playing sigma). Now the hog player has no other tank to play frontline while he flanks. You say you are a fan of homogenizing the tank role and I understand why but the reason why tanks cant be designed at more extremes is because they dont have a second tank compensating for their weaknesses. For tanks like ball and hog it literally didn't matter what the other tank ran as long as they took attention from them they could do their thing. Now their playstyles are completely gone.
Your argument is bunk in the first sentence. If the hog pick Havana is problematic, then we’re talking about changing tanks so their weaknesses can be compensated for in their OWN kits. It requires a little more imagination than the brain dead 6v6 argument and doesn’t require you to switch off the hero you like. I don’t understand this fixation on trying to leave your win conditions in another person’s hands. Just change my character to have a fighting chance so I can make it work instead of another gamble on of my second tank will even have a clue as to what the win conditions are.
@@demetusbrown1962 how is 6v6 brain dead ? Because we don’t want tanks that can do everything ? Because we want tanks that can be punishable ? Because we want fun tank combos and synergies ? Because we want more and diverse team comps? Because we love the game that we fell in love with all those years ago that was ripped away from us and can no longer play it ? …… which one of those is brain dead ?
This video was incredibly eloquent. I've been really starting to trend towards the idea of 6v6 due to most people's arguments for 5v5 being pretty trash. Your analysis of tank and it's actual problems really make me feel like I have a more full view of the big picture. I think 5v5 is definitely balanceable, I just hope the balance team can start to understand some of this.
As long as the game depends mostly on what support or dps your teammates pick then tank will always be miserable to play. If they can counter you by going to the hero select screen then that’s just bad game design.
Hey Spilo, I think you’re spot on about abilities that reduce the reward of “shoot the tank” strats being best for the role. The best tank abilities reward the player for pulling aggro in a way that is visible to the player and appropriate for the hero’s goals. Zar bubble is the most obvious example of this - damage taken to bubbles = charge. Likewise for another DPS-oriented tank, Doom block gives him a more damage/escape options (which he thrives at). DM allows DVA to counter rapidly without interrupting DVA’s pressure or movement (which she thrives off of). Sigma’s eat helps him absorb cooldowns and hold his position (which he thrives at). JQ’s axe helps her dish damage, keep up her passive, and cycle her cooldowns (all things she thrives at). The abilities (and, often, heroes) who don’t turn pressure into “fuel” for their game plans feel more lackluster. This can be due to design that only priorities survivability (Orisa, Maura, Hog, Ram, Ball) or just not keeping up with the pace of the game (Rein, Winston). The defensive abilities of Rein, Ram, Orisa and Mauga should help them brawl harder. Maybe let Rein’s shield absorb the elements of attacks and “infuse” his hammer/fire strike with them temporarily. Make Ram’s block in nemesis form give him a punish option to respond to pressure or boost his unique form cycling (e.g., give his base form an HP or DPS boost, or lower the cooldown on Nemesis form). Orisa’s fortify, like you said, should do more than just make her unkillable (maybe it buffs her teammates in a radius, like her old ult). Mauga’s cardiac should help him do more Mauga things (what those are I don’t know since I hate the role he fills as the tank-buster tank). Ball, Winston, and Hog have more unique game plans that their abilities should support. Ball likes to move, so make his defensive ability help him do that (e.g., negate CC). Winston likes to cut up space with his bubble, so make it help him do that in a more responsive way (e.g., nerf the shield HP but make it do a tick of damage when entered). Hog likes to … I don’t even know, but I don’t think being a big fat sack of meat with infinite HP feels particularly fun, so that should be reconsidered too.
I wonder if giving tanks a health gate where if they drop under a certain health, they get dr and cc resistance or just complete immunity to give tanks more agency would work. It would solve tanks exploding and give them an extra second or so to double down and go in or back up and not explode Edit: Im not saying dr for longer than a second similar to warframe shield gate to give like a second to decide and go from 700 health to 200
Honestly I think tanks should just have a flat reduction period. Not only will it help against CC chaining but it will also aid in prioritizing more “appetizing” targets like the enemy Dps or supp. I like ur idea!
@@funwalkthroughs1285 Flat reduction is the way. Unless the devs agree that more complexity is in the future of overwatch, introducing different thresholds overcomplicates things for people that don't read patch notes. I'd like to see threshold mechanics for the different role passives IF the devs can figure out what version of it is going to exist for many seasons and IF they want the game to be more complicated. The damage passive should have a dmg threshold before it activates. Bring back that 10% heal-cancel they patched out so quickly too. This will push Junk back into the game a little bit and pull back tracer's strength at range. Constant application of the heal-cancel is a problematic part of her kit next to all her other strengths.
so basically orisa fortify on every tank and then on top of the unkillable dmg reduction (ram block, orisa fortify, etc) and immortalities AND sustain ultimates in this game. nothing would die.
27:25 I disagree. 6v6 is not going to solve everything immediately but its the right direction. 5v5 having more freedom for dps and supports is correct if you apply the logic of less frontline pressure, but it breaks down when you consider that the dps and supports are tied down by a singular tanks decision making. Thats not freedom, thats your impact being completely dependent on the competence of your tank, which is now just a boss version of the dps role lol. Its harder to have individual impact and 'carry' on dps and support than in ow1. The complaint about your team choosing bad tank synergies is pointless because bad support and dps synergies exist too, its just the nature of a team game. And i dont understand how you think extreme hero designs arent good but still side with 5v5 which has nothing but extreme designs to account for 1 tank (like mauga and the dps output of ow2 released supports) Edit: Also why do we pretend that counterpicking is a bad thing because people one trick and may not be good at other heroes. This is a team game, play as a team, all these one tricks in one team just doesnt feel like players are synergising at all. A part of climbing ladder should be being proficient at your role, not at a singular hero
Overwatch is a team based game so really everyone need to be competent to play the game correctly. My team has a 3 OTP's (Doom, Torb, and Lúcio) and we still smoke masters and sometimes GM teams. Even though our comp struggles againt hard meta (Orisa, Soujourn, Tracer, Lúcio, Flex support) right now, we can play around it because of how flexible the game has become. I remember off meta being much more difficult in Overwatch 1. I fully agree with Spilo that the problem is psychology and not strategy because we win games we shouldn't purely off of pressure and holding cooldowns. Me (Lúcio) and my Doom absolutely feed our brains out, but we do an amazing job at pulling attention and let our DPS take free shots at the enemy team. We would fall apart if they just stopped shooting us and focused our vulnerable backline.
If it took the OW devs 2+ years to get OW built from the ground up for 5v5, how many years will it take for 6v6 to come back? Please don't tell me you are one of those guys who thinks they could bring back 6v6 next week. And how long will we have to go without new content/heroes/maps for 6v6 to come back? Asking for investors 😂😂😂😂
@georgealvarez1195 all you would need to do is tweak a few abilities and numbers for 6v6 to work. The reason it took 2 years to get ow2 wasn't because they were reworking the engine to remove features and an extra player, it was because they were making pve
@@georgealvarez1195 basically what the other comment said. They did not spend 2 years to build 5v5, they spent 2 years building pve, which failed and had to quickly come up with something to replace it with. This is clear because they said they had no intention of making ow2 have pvp but they went back on their word after massive complaints. So yeah blizz made 5v5 in a short amount of time so they could rebrand as ow2, they also didnt give us new content BECAUSE they were saving it for ow2 so it just doesnt apply lol, they can keep releasing content instead of gatekeeping it for the battlepass and shop since we already have that system now.
I was just complaining abt what I call "defensive installs", with hog, orissa, and mauga where they press a button and become way harder to kill. I wish Mauga had like a parry where he flexes and becomes briefly invulnerable, and returns damage absorbed as overhealth to himself and nearby allies instead of cardiac, or smfn like that. I just want tanking abilities that are hype yknow?
I think overwatch two should revert armor back to the way it was in overwatch one. This made high rate of fire/shotgun weapons less effective against tanks. This would make almost all of the tanks weaker against armor and since most of the characters with armor are tanks it would make the just shoot the tank aspect of tanking less impactful. This will allow Winston to better play into his counters and would allow for Mauga to be healthier in the game because he would do a lot less to damage to armor. This would also make reign better because he had the best armor penetration of the tanks back in overwatch one.
The counter swapping is always going to be there no matter what. I do agree with you though fully on the extremes. The game is either you are destroying or getting destroyed. I don’t think 6v6 is a magic pill, but I do want them to try something because people are gonna stop playing Tank at this rate.
I hate 5v5 with a passion and i dont ever see it working, they butchered my beloved tank role so much havent played it since S3 or so. Tried to give 5v5 a fair chance, but it just is Budget Overwatch, its infinitely less fun. That being said, not even the Qtimes really hold up anymore, i mean overall they are still "okay" but as a F2P, Live-Service Game having Qs that get near to dead 2022 OW (I had like 8 Minute DPS Qs in Masters yesterday) is not good. The thought process of 5v5 is "People dont like tank so lets reduce the players required" but then eventually, when you just keep butchering the role and only like 5% of all players Q it, the Qtimes will become even worse than in 6v6. Sure we can try to come up with solutions, but the heroes are way to diverse, you wont ever remove Counterswaps + the pressure of a Solo Tank JUST ISNT FUN (Also Tank Duos allowed for more dynamic and fun interactions) They have to try it again, i know it wont happen this year, but Blizzard will 100% capitalize on OWs former success and on people who just want to play 6v6, and if that happens i will be there grinding ranked and buying things again.
@@heiko2255 totally agree man. It’s funny you bring up the que times because I’ve noticed that a lot lately with my squad taking 5-10 minutes to find a game when usually we would load straight in. The tank roll ain’t fun and 5v5 only amplifies it. I just want to duo again with my other tank friends instead of fighting for my life by myself against a Mauga.
This conversation is interesting for me right now because I'm currently taking a class called Human Systems Integration and its all about usability via products, organizations, or systems. One of the biggest thing is feedback for humans using a product. I think a lot of the time tank just feels bad because you could be providing value but that value isn't quite clear because there isn't direct (right away) sound or visual ques telling you if you did something right. If it didn't appear you simply wouldn't receive that dopamine. Getting kills is a quite obvious way of getting feedback and you know if you are providing value vs not. But tanks do provide value but there is no dopamine found in that role unless you are dominating. I think that is why it "feels" bad to play as a role. Blizzard needs to decide what they want their role of tank means, and apply and reinforce behavior with feedback in the game. It needs to be right away, and have a visual and audio que. Why do we think "dink" sound is so fun and satisfying? It's a feedback / response from the system right away. Edit: I honestly hadn't watched yet but 7:50 is exactly what I mean by what I said above. Put in some reinforcing colors and sounds and humans will react to that. 1:04:00 , this is quite literally my major. You might find interest in Human Systems Engineering / product engineering. It's making products intuitive to others. I also think that abilities or concepts that stop a player from playing isn't the way to go. It sucks, doesn't matter how much you balance an ability that has the goal of stopping someone's abilities it feels bad. Same as going to a website and you can't interact with it at all. It's just going to be frustrating. Also, honestly bring back the card system. That in itself is rewarding for players to see. It equals dopamine and dopamine is what keeps us all in this game. "Shut down __ ultimates" "Pulled ___ CD's" Why not list forcing CD's in stats? It's similar to mit, you are pulling resources and making opportunities for your team.
damn this is kinda true, i mean tanks would atleast know how much of a slave they are with some of the stats that u mentioned, and it seems good even if it not solves all the problems the role have like too much responsibility and stuff
I find it so interesting how Overwatch is having issues with dynamic counter play and specialization when TF2 had the same problems with “specialist” classes like Engineer, Sniper, and Heavy being incredibly frustrating to play against and sometimes as. Hence why the competitive 6s community moved towards banning weapon unlocks that favored these three (wrangler + rescue ranger, mobility gloves, jarate, etc.). Scout, Soldier, and Demo have clear strengths and weaknesses yet have TONS of dynamic counterplay, so the 6s community favors them as “generalists.”
i’m not on the same page as spilo as far as the psychology element, but if we were to lean into that we could make the volume of shooting a target inversely proportionate to the size of the target you’re shooting. shooting a mauga would produce a quiet and unpleasant sound whereas shooting tracer would produce a loud and crisp sound.
1:03:25 "Make bad things feel bad and good thing feel good" Exactly like shooting tanks even though you get less ult charge, newer Lucio/Mercy players not using their utility speed since it doesn't give them any positive feedback, or like Mercy only healing zero damage boost etc. Punished for doing the correct thing
I knew of it but I didn't quite understand the weight the psychological aspect of the game and specifically how that relates to tanks. I'm very interested in game dev stuff and don't underestimate the impact of game-feel, however I didn't fully comprehend the implications that has with the rest of the game. It's really facinating to see the model of Mechanics, Dynamics, and Aesthetics all interacting with each other here. I honestly have so much to say and wish I could have a verbal discussion about this with you as it's super interesting to think about but this will have to do lol. I absolutely agree that tanks having less direct survivability and more indirect/variable survivability could be good for the game, you'd have more tools and it'd be much more dynamic and interesting and less braindead, and also it'd just feel like you have more agency over counters and cc and such than just having more raw hp (kinda like how sprint buttons feel good even if you could just make that the default speed without a sprint button, it feels like you have more agency because you're intentionally choosing to). I think a positive thing they could do to is to give damage reduction more visual and audio queues for negative feedback. Shields look very similar and sound similar when you shoot them with no hit marker. Matrix/Grasp/Spin and even Deflect doesn't necessarilly have as similar aethetics to each other but they also remove the hitmarkers with less satisfying hit sounds. That negative feedback is missing with shooting damage reduction abilities, and hell even for shooting armor or tanks in general (those last 2 would need to be playtested tho too much of a good thing can be bad too). Perhaps the hitmarker could be not entirely removed but it's mostly dulled out under an unsatisfying blunt impact sound, and maybe there's some particle effects on the shots impact connected to that sound. I could honestly go on with even more paragraphs about my thoughts on this and what exactly could be done but we'd be here for even longer lmao- thank you for making this!!
Ive always wondered about like an IGL 'role' in the game. Imo team based shooters biggest issue is how strangers interact with one another. I truly believe the average person doesn't treat it like a middle school basketball team, but strangers that people kinda think of like cashiers where they dont wanna interact, they just wanna do their business and get out. Imo the first team shooter to handle this in the average ladder would be the best game. Maybe instead of an overhead coach role or something though, you could give the tank a map where he can mark out pathing for someone without them being there themselves. Like making a super ping system for the tank so you can tell your team to setup an off angle via here before a dive for example. Or a rein can guide his hard brawl comp with pathing he chose that everyone sees. Itd probably be really hard to make this map and ping system super fluid cause it would need to be or it would possibly do nothing for the average player. My ideas probably too extreme and or only useful for higher levels tbh. I just REALLY wish i could queue a game for 8 hours and work with every player i get. I know thats legitimately only available in pugs or scrims nowadays which i think is silly. Truth is 10 golds can and have scrimmed before. Theyve worked together to the best of their ability before, even if its not perfect. But idk, for some reason that fun gameplay loop isnt possible in a matchmaking format. I wish thatd be pushed on a lil bit by any game.
i believe the sole problem OW failed to pull more players is the fact that they made MOBA shooter fun (-ish) but they skipped the whole communication thing. I don't think asking for better ping system is not an extreme idea, I think it's a crucial part that they have been missing for years. League has it and it became a core part, and players don't even communicate w voice. OW is based on MOBA, it's not too far fetched. It's better now in OW2. but still confusing as heck and i ended up spamming pings to give warnings. Warning ping we have rn is a good start. we do need those more specific, like warning for an oncoming ult setups, fall back should be default. just get rid of those Thanks and affirmative pings. It's useless anyways, just for gags.
I believe there is an equal problem on the flip side of the coin that is getting overlooked here. It feels equally good to pump healing and defensive cool downs into the friendly tank.
I feel as though the argument that Sam was making with tank designs was overall a more fun experience while also allowing the balance of the game to shine properly. Yes, it isn’t fun for the DPS trying to off angle if they get shut down by the enemy off tank, but that’s where the counterplay and strategy came in on figuring out which off angle you took, which DPS took the angle, and how they would get out. All of this didn’t even require very much teamplay, you needed at most 1 additional player to assist the off angle. The ability to outplay the off tank and win the position was also available and extremely rewarding, albeit very long and arduous for both sides, but you could FEEL the tangible impact it made on either side. Whereas now, tank DOES draw every ability, DOES have higher sustain overall, but does NOT (in most levels below GM+) have the capability to push people off their off angles without MASSIVE detriment or extremely well played team play. Take, for instance, Gibraltar 1st. This point is NOTORIOUSLY bad in gold/plat lobbies because the tank either 1) cannot walk up and take the space effectively with their pick, 2) attempts to take the space on the correct pick without enough assistance and gets absolutely blown up for it, or 3) the team is actively communicating and they coordinate well around the point and steamroll through 1st. In all 3 of these examples, the tank is taking primary focus fire as a constant variable and drawing value immediately, but in the vast majority of these cases the tank falls over due to circumstances of their direct weakness being exploited while their strengths aren’t being capitalized on enough. Will homogenizing the role fix this? Possibly, but at the cost of possibly (what I believe to be the likely outcome) making the tank role even less fun and psychologically attractive to play, while making it more psychologically effective to shoot the tank because now they all do the same things and you know exactly what to expect every fight. In 6v6, 2 of these 3 general scenarios could exist on Gibraltar 1st at the same time and the team could still ABSOLUTELY capitalize on it and win the team fight. This is where the hedging of bets (in my opinion) is WAY more effective in both a strategy standpoint and a balance standpoint. The off tank could cycle in and out between drawing massive attention and dropping behind the main tank, forcing CDs and still getting massive value, while also making significantly more errors and still getting out. You could be unrefined in high masters and still get the value the role nets, but to a lesser extent. Now in 5v5, the tank has way less mistakes before their life completely explodes, not to mention the existence of only one tank makes the kiting portion of the tank playstyle in this example much less effective, if not entirely ineffective due to CDs depending on the comp. The 5v5 solution is one that relies entirely on players actively growing up and up the skill tiers without many plateaus, and there are many who play the game simply to have fun who see no desire or necessity in getting better at the game. So long as that remains the overall sentiment, the 5v5 solution is simply doomed to fail from a casual standpoint (in my eyes) and will remain extremely lacking in fun for the high level tank player regardless of the rest of the playerbase’s average skill rising. That being said, I genuinely respect your ability to come up with what you believe to be solutions to the 5v5 issue, even if I disagree with the conclusion you draw with your statements. Your ability to articulate what you believe to be correct lends a lot of credibility and shows the amount of effort and time you put into trying to make it work. I truly wish more people on the 5v5 side could coherently explain their thoughts on the subject and their possible solutions the way you do without dumbing it down to “rose tinted glasses” like many do.
I'd like to shift more power into Mauga's charge. Lower cooldown, less startup time, more damage(or maybe even getting shields from hitting more people with it, like ball?). It could be used to reposition, disengage, deal damage, and if its wind up is shorter, to block CC.
The game needs to be 6v6 again. Period. The lone tank leads to so many bad situations. In particular, if your tank is bad for the given situation, and the tank doesn't switch, your odds of winning go down drastically. It sucks when you want to play a different tank like Hog, but the situation calls for an Orisa or something of that nature. You get pinched into playing a certain way instead of being the tank you want to be.
I like the idea of smaller tank hitboxes and sizes. It might even allow some tanks to straight up take less damage from strafing which is such a fundamental skill to have on literally any other character.
5v5 tanking STILL requires that your team covers your weaknesses, it just falls to the DPS/Supports rather than the offtank. What a silly argument against 6v6
I mean, that statement says that 6v6 wasn't better. Now you just have one less person supporting you, but also one less opponent trying to counter you.
@@MasterMemo but it also doesnt suggest 5v5 is better, when the og argument from spilo is that it suggests 5v5 is better. its just redundant lol. granted though, having another tank supporting you gives you more freedom to make plays and not be locked down taking damage in one choke like in ow2, so id take the extra tank countering me if it means i get to use my brain again lmao
@@Pyro-ky2rtsaying that you have to stand in a choke/frontline just means you weren't really paying attention, you are almost never forced to exclusively play like this and if you do you just suck
6v6 is also just not coming back as it's obvious that blizzard is not really interested, stamping your feet doesn't really help and not giving actual arguments gets you no where
@@lostmycat5671 i mean how else are you going to be present as a tank in 5v5? Suggest you stand off to the side, the enemy tank will just walk lol. 5v5 tanks were classified as 'brawlers' and so their whole intention is to be in the front, taking damage and dealing damage. This is done to allow the dps to take angles and supports to be safe. in 6v6, you could rely on another tank to take the frontline damage while you take an angle for a play to be done, and you can interchange this with the other tank by then being the next one to frontline in choke while they take an angle. You could also catch their tanks off guard when they do this. Whole point is there was a lot more skill required, 5v5 tanking is dumbed down massively and not fun. and whether or not blizz would actually do 6v6 or not isnt an actual argument itself against if 6v6 is better for ow2 anyway lmao.
WHAT IF : - increase survivabilty with abilities (CC mitigation) - slightly reduce hitbox - slightly reduce damage - do not show "damage dealt" for tanks but "efficiency" with a % scale. The more people shoot at you, the more CC you block, the more your efficiency is. So you have a visual indicator if you are effective or not. If the ana nades you, the bastion is shooting at you 90% of the time, their orisa spikes you 80% of the time etc. you get like "95%" efficiency displayed, so you and your team know you are baiting a lot of enemy abilities and ressources. This is the true value of tank role, more than damage dealt imo
I think geting all the insane cooldowns thrown in your face (anti, hack, javelin, hinder, sleep, rock, hook, discord orb, doom punch.) just to find a way to get a pick but no there is (pull ,immortality , suzu, res all the second chance cd"s like fade etc. and mobility creep i started to Main tracer just because i can out play my counters with her but I'm not touching tank because everything shuts you down
My biggest point with tank is that main tanking being the only form of tank in OW2 will never be fun when the impact of that is so vague. With the increase in mobility across the board my hopes are that people will learn to take space for themselves and then tank can be brought back to the fun of off-tanking - holding an angle, peeling for teammates in danger, and punishing those that go in on your teammates.
I just want 6v6 back because I had more fun playing tank, especially duo-queueing with another tank. I hate being gaslit by 5v5 advocates telling people "you're just nostalgic." I genuinely dislike playing tank atm in 5v5. Even if blizzard makes playing tank enjoyable in 5v5, I still think 6v6 would be MORE enjoyable. Tanking in 5v5 has lower lows AND lower highs than in 6v6.
I feel the same way. Spilo enjoys 5v5 more though. He is trying to solve the 5v5 tank problem, 6v6 would solve it, but he is brainstorming a way to solve it given one tank. I would give a few of my organs away to be able to play rein zar or ball dva again. Not nostalgia in the rose tinted glasses way, but longing for a better time
@@pphaver871 The thing about fixing tank in 5v5 is that every solution I see requires a significant amount of changes, even changes I feel would be bad for the game. When we're at a point where we're talking about REWORKING Rein, you know the game is cooked. I just hope we get a 6v6 gamemode added sometime soon. Or make it so competitive open queue has a limit of 2 tanks and 2 supports
@@narwhalz02you will not receive a 6v6 mode as blizzard knows better than to split the playerbase like this, tank feels completely fine up to masters most of the time... (not a tank main), I think a lot of people's issues come from trying to play tank as if they still have an off tank and supports that only heal bot, in ow2 every role just simply has more agency in a game including the singular tank player in the sense that picks are far less important, the reason rein needs to be reworked/buffed is because he is terrible at higher ranks and pro play, not at metal ranks or lower, plus the game has just simply evolved and power crept rein out a bit in terms of design, which I think is ok he needs some tuning
I disagree, I think that the highs of 5v5 tank are MUCH higher than they were in ow2, and its true the lows are lower, but the most fun and growth ive had in this game is learning how to properly play tank to avoid the lows.
you know how there's a crit sound on hitting a headshot? what if there was a yucky noise that happened when you shot a barrier/DM/sigma eat/bubble/damage resisted character/overhealth to change the psychology of shoot thing feel good
How to make shooting tank less satisfactory - heavily reduce ult charge from shooting tanks, boost ult charge for shooting squishies, give bonus ult charge for securing elimination of squishies. Teams that focus more on that get more reward, team dragged to shooting tank get punished.
i disagree with this. the tank passive already does this to a pretty good extent. not shooting tanks IS the ult charge boost and making it more extreme in both ways makes it so heroes like sombra tracer are getting emp pulses every single fight without fail. also this doesnt help bastion reaper orisa comp just shooting tank even if it is less effective especially in low ranks since they are easiest to deny and blow up in general. need to look elsewhere to help the tank role
@@noglo5355 "shoot the tank" tank busting heroes still get value by eliminating the tank to create snowball effect, so in terms of neutral fight they will still be strong just not as useful in ult fights. The current passive doesnt really change how fights take place, teams that shoot the tank are still rewarded most, from Bronze all the way to pro play. If certain heroes like Sombra/Tracer become busted in fast ults, the ult points they require can be increased to keep balance, it will solve most of the issue.
I'm so glad I'm not alone in my way of thinking. I avoided playing tank in overwatch 1 because I though it was weird how no other role in the game hinged on the other person complimenting your pick, or visa versa, like tank did. I always though 6 v 6 did worse things for tanks expression of character than 5 v 5 could ever do, because of how in sync the tanks needed to be cycling out their resources. It made it such an extreme decision to decide to bubble a Genji instead of your other tanks in scenarios. I always thought Ram shoulda been balanced around his Vortex, because as an offensive tool it's great for slowing prey down, and as a defensive tool it's great for making it easier for defenders to get away or kill pushers before they kill you.
i believe Ramattra is one of the best tanks design wise, Tempo threat, can handle a brawl, but can also poke, and i hope Overwatch's team keeps up with the tempo based heros (like doom back in OW1)
@@toons4934 watch their discussion on samito's channel, he didn't roast it in fact they talked to each other and politely brought points *like civilized people* . Who thought that would be possible 😮😮😮not you apparently.
you can technically have a long range tank, it would just be hard to balance because it would need some kind of agro pulling ability like bob that they could reposition on a cooldown. while they snipe from good sightlines or something.
Some of my ideas: 1- Doomfist: power block grants cc immunity in it's first second. if you successfully block a cc, cooldown refunded back. empowered punch removed. new ult ''the successor''. he gets access to his dps kit. When you activate the ult, doom does a slowing seismic slam as a start and gets 1 charge of rising uppercut and empowered punch. empowered punch has big hitbox and can be used vertically. you can ground punch after uppercut. let's say you uppercut one person and then punch him back to his team with empowered punch like bowling. To compensate for the power budget, we add 1 more second to both regular punch and seismic slam cooldown. this way he has his counter play and less obnoxious with his cc spam and more fun to play. We might also cut 25hp from his pool. 2- Orisa: We remove the fortify completely. extremely boring ability. she has too much ability anyway. To compensate for her massive hitbox and also provide her hero fantasy (immovable metal object) we give her passive CC immunity and make all of his health pure armor. We reduce the cooldown of spear throw and spear spin by 1 second. We might also explore the idea of making spin cooldown like dva matrix. spin is good because you can use it for mobility, defense and offense/cc. 3- Dva: her booster speed can be increased so he can act a bit more like winston. quicker engage disengage. her gun can have a bit more range against slim heroes. she has way too much armor dial it back a bit and add visuals for her defense matrix so we can see if it's about to deplete. dva is fine but i think her armor pool is too massive and her damage can be too weak against mid range slim heroes. 4- Winston: secondary fire needs some help to add variety to his gameplay and i think his bubble is too strong and overwhelming, uninteractive. forces enemies to swap. most heals and damage doesn't pass through before it's too late. it's like old mei wall where shooting it was pointless. winston bubble similar in that if you are not playing bastion or 5 man premade that bubble overpowering. move some power budget from bubble to secondary fire. secondary fire shouldn't consume any ammo and can be a bit more flexible in speed and damage. 5- Mauga: I played this hero a lot. You need to nerf his ammo. again. and buff his solo gun damage and solo gun swap speed. this will shift his effectiveness towards slim heroes rather than tanks. cardiac is dumb but i haven't think anything to replace it. cardiac shouldn't be a life steal and raw dmg reduction. i like it's teamplay aspect though. Incorporate cardiac to overrun, during and after overrun give him 1-2 sec of cardiac. it will fit his hero fantasy. make a new interactable, smart ability for him. 6- Rein: Not sure how you can keep his hero fantasy intact. he is actually overtuned imo but outdated. you need to nerf the other heroes. power/mobility creep too much. I would nerf his barrier, increase his movement speed when his barrier up and change charge so it doesn't pin anymore and functions like Mauga's overrun. Does a hammer hit at the end like Balderich in the cinematic. Add some animation cancel tech to his abilities. 7- Roadhog: unsalvageable. scale him down, make him smaller similar to doomfist and then make him dps. torb, bastion, mei category dps. 8- Zarya: incorporate her shield mechanic more to her gameplay. convert some of her white health to shield health and make self bubble instantly trigger shield regen. you can adjust the cooldowns up or down. i'd say +1 sec to self bubble, -1 sec to teammate bubble, also ult replenish full ammo. lower the rate of ammo consumption against barriers. 9- Ramattra: this is the weakest tank in s9 imo. they didn't adjust him for some reason. i think his buttons needs to be more responsive. everything has pretty high cast time. barrier, vortex, nemesis transformation all 3 cast animation needs to be cut half. his ult is trash now in s9. this is a good opportunity to take his win con from his ult and distribute it to other part of his kit. i'd say cut 25hp from his pool and give him more impactful offense. faster firerate with staff will help with accuracy and damage. more movement speed to his block. keep his pummel suck but overall increase his movement speed. 20% to %25, block penalty 50% to 40%. Add jump ability to his nemesis form(like baptiste jump) but make him vulnerable after landing. (like meteor strike) The ability is not for damage just for mobility. like you jump to high ground but you inflict self stun and you lose hefty amount of nemesis form. so you can't jump and brawl clear high ground. this is also a vertical jump not like winston. hold block and ctrl, ram squats and then does a clunky jump and then lands on ground and slowly recovers. buff vortex height. a lot. maybe make it detonate'able in the air but that might be too strong. English not my native tongue so sorry if it's hard to read.
Finally! Someone gets what i've been saying for months now! We need less mitigation and more counterplay! Tanks need to die in a game of OW2 and if tanks do nothing but block and mitigate, then tank will always be boring meat shields! We are fighting players on another team, not bosses. Thank you, Spilo!
Hear me out on my idea for reworking Mauga 1.Keep his guns the same but greatly increase spread more when shooting both guns 2.Change his shout (cardiac overdrive) to make it so his shout now does 5 damage to everyone in a 10m radius or what ever his cage distance is and forces everyone in that range to face him (like hog hook) but ur cross hair will be forced on to his head for about 1sec 3.Now while it’s active for 4-6 seconds all damage mauga takes will be converted into overhealth caping out at 500-1000 over health(including his passive) and no damage reduction with a 15sec cooldown 5. Reduce hp my 100
One thing with roadhog that I'd like to see is a mechanic similar to Doctor from DBD who had a bit of the same issue for a while (one-dimensional gameplay) Giving roadhog another vape-like ability that gave him a stronger and stronger buff of some kind the longer he was using it for (Like speed, or firerate, or even just quick melee damage ((I think indiscriminate damage buff would be too good))). But it shares the same cooldown and pool as the healing one. So like, if you're going into an engagement against an ana you could burn the pool completely on the buffing one and become a major threat without relying on just staying alive, if you're going against a zen you can hold onto the charge for healing so that you get the mittigation when you're discorded and you don't just blow up instantly. I think having easy sources of damage mitigation is fine IF they come with a choice to make. Like you said, shout is well designed because you're not just ALWAYS using it as a HP button, Sigma's abilities are well designed because they're essentially using their cooldowns as a resource, and they're versatile. Essentially, turning roadhog's vape pool from "This is my second healthbar" to "This is either my emergency healing, or something I can use to push with" y'know? Plus it gives the enemy team a little bit more to think about against roadhog (Is he currently buffed, how much did he spend on buffing, if he's not buffed, it signals to hold off on burning a bunch of resources just to not kill him) I actually like playing as roadhog a lot, and I love the concept of a tank that draws aggro by being a massive midrange threat, rather than one that draws aggro because if you don't kill them you just can't win against their team. I also like how part of his design is that he's easy to hit -- it entices people to shoot him even if they shouldn't, because dealing damage is satisfying.
Ow has such a macro level of gameplay that the right and wrong decision for the situation can flip in an instant which ultimately leads to " this shouldnt be this way". It becomes really complex in moments that trivialize the way your're playing and i think that becomes overwhelming to many, even myself at times.
Make a more bright and exciting dink noise proportional to the % of the target's HP that your attack is doing? Dull and plunkin when you hit a tank, loud and bombastic when you're headshotting a tracer?
to me i feel the tank problem coming from a DPS main is the fact that there kits are 100% better then mine and cause of that 7/10 times if given the choice to shoot someone and deal with them first i am dealing with the tank. If your going to use any CC use it on the tank, if you have a ult make sure you get the tank in it at least cause they are the ones that takes space and the ones that you cant really 1v1 unless you catch them off guard
I disagree with the way that impact has been categorised, I think the argument can be made that tank is currently more impactful, but that impact isn't something the tank player creates through any sort of skillful gameplay, the impact is there because the tank just exists, which means the impact of how you play and your skill at tanking is lower, but impact that you create in total is higher, if that makes any sense, and what effects the outcome of the game is the impact of your skill, which has been reduced making it harder to increase the chance of winning as a tank
I think this is what makes ball struggle. Even with the rework he still doesn't have the uptime of other tanks so if the defining quality of tanks is taking space over long periods of time he still misses that mark.
I love some of the ideas that were brought up, but I can’t help but feel like the off tank provides that functional survivability and counter play. Although I will say this is the first pro 5v5 argument that’s actually made me reconsider whether 5v5 could better
Tank do not have identity that was always the case. The simple fact that spilo has trouble finding a simple definition to the role is a problem in itself. There is no significant difference between tank and dps Tanks should be brawlers and go back to having "passive" defensive utility leaving range damage to DPS
@@josephreynolds2401 it's not a criticism but his answer is kinda bad and convoluted because the real answer is a tank is a just a Big HP dps right now. Their big hp is the only reason they can menace longer, give soldier 700hp and he becomes basically orisa
@@vopcracker3193the identity will still be a problem is 6v6. I do agree that 6v6 will help in alot of other realms I do believe it is the superior format in raw gameplay but there is massive drawbacks too Splitting the healing, counterpicking , tank decision making , dead by daylight support meta , CC , learning curve for new players But it will make worse: individual agency / impact , shooting people vs mitigation, healbotting. But most of all QUEUE TIMES I'm very afraid that queue times will be abysmal they would double the need for tanks and at the same time all this time we basically recruited half as much tank players than the other roles compounding the effects .
@@darkvinc My argument is that the HP and hitbox adjustment across the board left tank out to dry. They are 10-20% behind other roles on relative HP and are most susceptible to the damage passive. Both of these together make it so that they can't commit into damage or space creation because they are so focused (theoretically) on their own survival. Big DPS argument doesn't hold up because Sigma and Winston don't do overwhelming dmg and can successfully control zones very capably. Hog, Zarya, Mauga, Rein do feel like they're made to fit a "Big DPS" mold....maybe that's a problem. I've been saying that all tanks should have the same control in their respective range as Sigma does at his range. I dont think it'll take identity overhauls to push other tanks onto this path. Season 10 trailer seems to overtly address some issues with Tank fragility. It'll be easier to talk these things after it releases.
I think just as we did with supports at the beginning of ow2. we are power creeping tanks, not to the same extent though but still power creeping them. The more they have to change, the more that one more buff to something in someone’s kit will break them, thus buffing other tanks to counter that buff. And when that buff gets nerfed or reverted, then one character that was kept in check by the op character, is now free to rule the game without said counter. Thus creating a loop.
Im curious, do you think Sombras rework is extreme? she is essentially designed to do 1 thing particularly well. hack, Virus, Shoot, translocate, go inviz ... rinse and repeat on any squishie. sure she has the sombra76 playstyle but that obviously does not utilize of all her tools.
i think the only way to make tank feel good in 5v5 is to significantly reduce the oppressive abilities efficiency and duration when applied to a tank because they are the easiest target to hit and are hard to miss. that’s the key, to get to that level without nerfing supports or dps you can change the tank passive. Updated tank passive: in addition to the current tank passive, all negative status effects affecting a tank are reduced in effectiveness and duration by 25-40% (number is subject to change). abilities that can’t be affected by the reduced effectiveness will be hit by the reduced duration and vice versa. certain abilities will be double dipping in the sense that they will be reduced in effectiveness and duration such as anti nade and the dps passive. disincentivizing shooting the tank at all times. i think this will at the very least make tank feel a lot better to play. mei slow and freeze wont be as good, hack won’t last as long, sleep will be even quicker, discord will be significantly weaker on tank, anti nade will be fairer. obviously some tanks will have to be toned down if this happens
Fully agree. It currently feels like you have to bait literally every cooldown before you can properly engage, because any one of them can effectively kill you.
@pandurlolgg5780 why would it make tank more boring? For me, CC, anti and discord cause some of the most frustration when I play tank. If they weren't as powerful against me, I'd be able to make more creative plays. Tank is boring right now because you explode when you try to do anything ambitious. You have to spend so much time behind cover as well with DPS passive.
@breonmyers2154 adding a passive to reduce status effect power on tanks wouldn't make the game less skillful. The biggest effect would be making tanks less attractive as a target for the whole team's cooldowns. More nades, discord etc on squishies which I feel adds more choices and depth. Currently, everybody just spams their cooldowns on the tank. It might not be the ideal change, but it would be positive. If you think all passive resistances are bad, you didn't think critically about what you're listening to. Also, spilo didn't even say that. He said that abilities with only one use are bad. Passives are a different category.
My idea was reworking armor into something that blocks damage from each enemy, maybe even reduce or block CC until it's broken It would also not give ultimate charge and could not be healed, in order to punish teams that dump all their resources into the tank
25:25 same thing can happen in overwatch 2 like what happens when you get a rein on Havana or roadhog on circuit Royale but with 6v6 there's another tank that can make the right choice of tank so even the roadhog or rein atleast have a chance to playthe character they want and still have impact. But in overwatch 2 tanking is more map dependent than player dependent
Honestly Tanks should be lethal in their effective ranges because they need to be able to threaten others out of their range in order to make space. Sometimes it feels like there’s too much emphasis on the challenge with getting into and staying in that lethal range when everyone else can dash, fly, sleep, knock back and just outright avoid and bypass you. It just sucks because a lot of the time it feels like the way you play tank is hide in a corner until you can deny someone and then go back to hiding.
I like SVBs pitch on group up of 5v5 Open Queue with a 2 per role limit. Open queue in its current state is actually super underrated but 3+ support comps are pretty much unbearable.
Why is the high elo complaint 'tanks crumble to focus fire way too fast' but the low elo complaint is 'you're losing because you're shooting tank too much'?
But you can make tanks force people to look at them. In Smite they have a many tanks that pull the entire enemy team to them, latch on to one person and not let them go, fling them to thier team, lock them down for several seconds, and there is another tank who specifically forces someone to attack only them for a few seconds. They all have abilities that either force you to look at them or fling/pull you into their team. Of course the trade-off is that they do 💩 damage.
So the only benefit of 5v5 tanking is that… it’s easier for the other roles to not have to deal with the offtank who was doing their job properly (and having fun doing it?) Okay lmao. Well I guess if we just sacrifice the fun of the tanks then the game is better! I sure wonder why the role is shit to play. Sincerely, an offtank player
I mean I feel like you guys barely watched the damn video, he's clearly talking about how oppressive off tank made DPS and support feel like shit but now in ow2 tank feels like shit, fwiw I think tank still feels fine for most of my games, a lot of people just suck and blame the role though
@@lostmycat5671except the off tank wasn’t oppressive and he’s gaslighting you. Most average lobby’s literally didn’t play like how he puts in the video period. This is a manipulation tactic. Also, you don’t play tank enough to know why the role is terrible. You’re just going off of these 5 good games you had on the role and coming to a conclusion that people just suck at the game without being aware of the fact that you can easily just say that in ow 1, the off tank wasn’t oppressive and most players just suck. Double standards much?
The opportunity for more active and aggressive engagements is way higher now for ALL ROLES. Everyone forgets the games when your team simply cannot break a choke or couldn’t take the off angle that could create the needed pressure to win the fight because there was another player there who won because they overpowered you with stats. This happened constantly in lower ranks. This resulted in teams solely winning fights with ultimates by stand still and shooting the two meat blocks in front of them. This extra focus on shooting tanks then made the whole game a battle of attrition and didn’t incentivize supports to do anything but heal bot and build their ults too. The switch to 5v5 and free to play has introduced a whole gen of players who have been playing the version of the game that rewards more active decision making and better positioning. Now we expect people to be happy when we slow the pace of the game back down and remove more of the fps aspects that so many of these new players have been enjoying and replace it with the much less satisfying MOBA aspects that people complained about in OW1? I just don’t buy it for a second. I’m perfectly happy with trying to rework the tanks to offer more counterplay and decision-making options to be proportional to that of the other roles but in 1 player. Setting up an engagement for my team without the necessity of another player is perfectly fine for me. Sincerely, a maintank player.
@@demetusbrown1962 this literally did not happen in lower ranks. It just didn’t. Not only were tanks very kill able, in the lower ranks most tanks would sit in the front line. If this was a problem it was because the supports like bap/brig just erased the tanks mistakes constantly denying everyone’s value. THATS what people didn’t like, the constant denial ability’s and of course characters like sig and orsia. Like people keep trying to paint this picture that tank was just the overwhelming stat monster that couldn’t be stopped that was so bad for the game when supps like bap were introduced. I don’t care about how it “opened up” the game more for dps because that’s the problem with the game now. Dps can just walk on top of your team and all you can do is just watch and die. You may want the tank role to be homogeneous but I’m telling you right now nobodies gonna play it for the same reason nobody wants to play tank in the other games. Overwatch 2 tank is why nobody likes tank in other hero shooters. No proactively only reactivity , little carry potential. 5v5 is not sustainable for the game at all period. Sincerely, a off and main tank player
@@depthcharge5091 tell samito to teach his viewers some reading comprehension when you pay for your next sub. I’m saying supports were the issue of 6v6. That doesn’t mean supports were having more fun. The average support player was afk shooting their tank all game and building their ult because THAT is how 75% of fights were won across ALL ranks. There was nuance to it as there is all things, but the psychology of the game incentivizes that and they hated it. How are you going to solve that? Support gameplay has been undeniably improved in 5v5. Dps players like to play it, they get to be more aggressive with cooldowns and use natural cover and with one less person mitigating, they have more agency in their games. A large sum of the players are supports and nowadays you see cool clips and more montages and creative plays. Gold and plat players actually take duels nowadays. I personally like that the community has evolved in a way that shows real tendencies towards preferring skill expression instead of just thing that stand behind you to feed you their cooldowns. Supports as they are now are way too strong for 6v6 and everyone knows that. How will they react when all that agency gets reduced again? Mercy and kiriko players complain over the smallest number tweaks. You’re going to sacrifice that large of a player base just to make a drastic and under-thought change? Ignorant, to say the very least. Sincerely, someone with forethought
Tanks were fun in Overwatch 1, dps were just more fun when you don’t understand the game. When Overwatch first came out people only wanted to play dps. But once people figured out having supports and tanks on the team makes it easier to win, more and more people started trying tanks and supports they liked. Tanking got extremely boring towards the second half of OW because the good tanks in ladder were very boring. If they added more tanks, reworked CC’s, made bigger more open maps, removed 2CP and reworked problematic heroes like orisa, BUT kept 6v6, I think the game would be in a different better place. A lot of tank players are upset because we’ve seen through the blizzard cracks of the failures of the company, PVE, balance history, poor game direction decisions, etc. There’s no hope in Overwatch 2 as a brand, for fuck sake we were stuck in pay to win metas every other season, being the one guy pressured into playing a character to win is worse than when you had somebody to help carry the load with you. And to still have that 2 logo slapped on the front of my favorite game, without being able to play the game I fell in love with is just a disgrace. And to defend blizzard and team 4 for so long after they turned Overwatch into a soulless cash grab with no direction is just beyond me. Not saying you are doing any of this spiło it’s just a sentiment I and many I play with in on console share. Overwatch reminds me of smash bros because of its niche, its depth, its hardcore fan base and also the fact that the developers are in way over their head when it comes to balancing their game.
I'd be interested to know what the game would look like if tanks had resistance to almost all cc (so for example probably just leave a heavily reduced sleep nade, heavily reduced Lucio boop and cc from other tanks). From a lore perspective it seems kinda ridiculous that you can have this colossus character that can then get pushed around by people.
The game would be miserable for supports at that point. That’s the issue with 5v5. To make tanks viable in this format, you have to take away agency from other roles.
22:38 I would argue that 6v6 tanking was actually the MORE diversified option in my experience (in OW1 I fluctuated around silver-gold). In games at my rank, chances were pretty low that either team would 1) pick 2 complementary tanks and 2) play them coordinated and well enough to gain a big advantage. It did happen but people were mostly playing what they wanted. Sure you might get a flanking hog but at least you have another tank who may provide some more value. To me, OW2 is the real "all your eggs in one basket" situation: if your one tank gets countered and they don't want to swap or can't play other tanks well, then it's gonna be a real rough game. I'd rather have two options for picking a decent tank for the team comp and map; additionally as was mentioned that second tank can help cover the weaknesses of the other, which also sounds more "diversified". In my view, 5v5 tanking is actually the "non-diversified" portfolio. Maybe what you say is true for mid-high brackets, but at the lower levels it wasn't that big of a deal, and it sounds like for "pro" play and high end comp it wasn't either.
I know alot of people whine about tank synergy, but my biggest issue with it is the focus fire on tank, you went from the entire team looking at you while someone protects you and shares that load, to being the only person people blame if a fight is lost. And the worst part is, its often true, tanks can have yhe most mental skill expression, but they are FORCED to carry the team on their backs unless you have a superstar dps that makes the enemy team wonder where *our* tank is
What if they removed reapers lifesteal and made enemies he kills drop some kind of orb or something that heals him a set amount? Then he'd be less encouraged to shoot the tank all the time.
Tanks for example Orisa and Mauga, must have better interactions between the other tank cast in terms of their abilities, limiting the counter swap game, giving you more chances to outplay rather than just dominate the matchup.
Ive personally found a lot of enjoyment from the 5v5 tank playstyle and really to be honest dont really see where other tank players are coming from when they say tank is horrid to play. Genuinely think that they either have paper mentals and cant handle tank fundamentals or just have a massive skill issue that they avoid by blaming the game/role
I'm gonna propose something kinda crazy but I think it would be better for the game, counterswapping should not be instantaneous. There should be a 5 second (or even longer) delay for swapping. In a game as fast paced as OW that could genuinely make a difference and there is little psychologically that bothers us more than having to wait so it's an additional way to make counterswapping psychologically less attractive
Simplifying the game is not a positive. Yeah as I keep watching this, I keep seeing arguments being applied to 6v6 that you can easily just apply to 5v5 as well.
they just need a passive that lets cc and common tank buster abilitys to be slightly reduced. For example something like "steadfast- all debuffs & cc are 20% less effective" they had already figured it out with ana sleep dart, I dont see why the whole game can't have that
![The Great Tank Debate [2024] feat. Flats, Danteh, Bogur & Freedo](/img/n.gif)
How many comments are gonna be below that say "6v6" to parrot the opinions of others without actually watching the video? (you're only allowed to parrot MY opinions...)
How did bro comment 2 days ago💀💀
@@andre25salv38it gets released earlier for his “best friends” I think
6v6 to parrot the opinions of others without actually watching the video
I didn’t even play ow1
I do only parrot your opinions but that is probably just as bad as parroting others lol
6v6
Putting aside 5v5 and 6v6 and heck even the balance argument, being the only person responsible for being the front line of your team with most of the responsibilities isn't fun imho.
You’re not though
@@demetusbrown1962 you are but you aren't in a way. you aren't in a sense that dps and supports are also creating space through their cooldowns. but you are in the sense that without you there, no one else can get much value or space at all. the games winnability is tied to the skill level of the tank you get, and it's almost entirely out of your hands if your don't have a tank who can competently take space.
As a tank main, it's part of the appeal for me. I want to be the most important piece on the board. The problem is that right now tanks get deleted like paper and are too weak to hard counters.
And the funny thing is, it gets more bearable if you have an "off-tank dps" like reaper or mei helping you on the frontline. almost like every role should just have 2 slots...
I think the direction they're going with venture is a nice way to split up that responsibility. She feels like a bruiser type character with her shield generation, but also feels like she can get in and out of fights easily like an assassin with her kit. So if you get turned on by 1 or 2 people, some nice ability usage and good positioning and timing can make you able to actually fight them.
My off the wall idea for the 'getting value feels bad' problem on tank is to lean more into Overwatch's strong characterization. Literally just add little character voice dabs for the things you want players to do.
There are already tons of special lines for certain interactions, like if Ana kills an ulting Pharah.
If 4 enemies hit Rein's shield within 3 seconds he shouts 'HAH! ALL EYES ON ME!' Maybe if Hog gets slept, he says 'Just wait til I get back up...' or if Winston jumps away at low health and survives, he laughs at the enemies.
Give some indication that the characters WANT to draw attention. They WANT cooldowns to be wasted on them. It's obiously not a solution to the problem, but I think it would be fun and help gently guide noobs to do effective things.
this goes hard
That actually sounds fuckin awesome because it just feeds off the psychology of the tank taking all the attention... damn I'm on board Rein saying "HAHAHA IS THAT ALL YOU GOT!?!?!?"
@@stankyt5882 *slept* 3... 2... 1... ready or not, here I come!
Join the OW2 team immediately
Ram has a voice line when entering Nemesis form, where enemies here the usual "ur getting curved fool" allies here "They will target me. Let them!" Things like that we def need more of for more teamwork
bro Spilo I don't know how you have the patience to deal with these chatters, the "how do I rank up" guy who spams his essay every 20 seconds would make me implode on the spot
And it also has the dumbest reason stated too. "I always have a thrower". Yeah, sure, only people on your team throw. Enemies never do.
@@philistine3260 yeah well honestly it makes sense that the person in question shares both "I'm the most important person in the chat and you are obliged to answer my essay immediately" and "I'm the best player in the game but always have a thrower so I lose" mentalities. different sides of the same coin :)
You know ur game is cooked when the community starts talking like philosophers
Something being painful means that only the philosophers are left. I like the suffering in ow. But in no way is ow for everyone.
we learned from our pain
I call it charachter development@@mickeyboy90
yeah i mean with valo people are teaching you to just hold angles and shit, while ow players need to know every single interaction with every heroes, maps, and many more no wonder it sounded like a fucking professor xd
I mean, not thinking philosophically is why the transfer to 5v5 went so poorly. We didn't anticipate support players struggling with proactivity. We didn't anticipate the rock/paper/scissors + tank focus of removing of one tank, etc. The vast majority of game design isn't just number tweaks, but actually the theory/vision of how psychology works in a competitive environment (same kind of stuff is why board games like Monopoly suck). I find it fascinating and a much more productive method of solving what the game actually needs than just buffing this and nerfing that.
All I’m saying is the chatter that said “hanzo but bigger” had me rolling
Need an edit of big hanzo preferably with the Yes voice line
@@contentconsumer3743 LNFAO
Me too lmao 🤣
I know personally I preferred to play the entire cast of tank because it was more so about complementing my other tank/team.
Now I just swap because if I don’t my team doesn’t have a tank at all.
or rather. they dont feel they have a tank. i understand how you feel tho.
Basically what I'm hearing is doom is the perfect tank if block wasnt so poorly designed. He's small, mobile, doesn't have insane HP pool. Damage is not free, cd cycle is fun.
BRING BACK OCTOBER 2020 6V6
We Will Make OW2 OW1 Again
I second this
YES PLEASE
One thing I think you missed is the "blame" factor. how often the entire loss is blamed on the tank. this is less of a prevalent factor in organized teams, but is one on the ranked ladder. This also enforces the "I did nothing" factor of tank as you and others dont understand the value of tank. Maybe i'm mad, but I feel this is an important aspect.
The problem with 5v5 and its Tank balance is that it fundamentally limits the type of gameplay Tanks (and the entire team in tandem) can have and do to be effective at all. People can say that 6v6 did the same thing all they want but that was with an antiquated off Tank/ main Tank design and several years of neglect on top of that.
Meanwhile, 5v5 does it (with regular balance patches!) by simply making its entire philosophy revolve around the Tank role's deficits at the expense of everyone including DPS, who only stopped complaining about their lack of impact in Overwatch _in general_ once *you gave them a simple passive* to cut through the healing creep that was only ever put in place to offset the lack of another Tank in the first place.
I maintain that the generalization of Tanks into brawlers while adding role passives and some Support sustain would have gone much better in a 6v6 OW2, where synergies could have been tackled on a more modular level without making every Tank a raid boss the entire team must focus to win or the easiest to ignore with no in-between. (AMA)
the healing creep wasn't made to combat the lack of a tank. That was just leftover unintended side effect of keeping the numbers the same. The self survivability and dual ability of the new supports absolutely was a result of removing a tank.
bmb overwatch lol
@@ryanp652 If I recall, those things were buffed specifically due to Support complaints that DPS and Tank were mopping the floor with them. “Healing creep” was just a logical extension of what that meant for the game, just as "dual ability" meant enabling those same Supports to have both the most powerful abilities in the game on cooldown and the ability to regularly outduel DPS.
*The outcome’s the same: Nothing in 5v5 will ever be more impactful than the loss of another Tank* and yet still, _incredibly simple changes_ towards OW1's outdated gameplay mechanics remain infinitely more impactful towards the game, than the decision to go 5v5 was ever at its core.
If you want a example of a "sniper tank" just look at how tanks work in a Battlefield game, but even there you cant just camp on a hill and shoot. In order to be effect at your job you must advance and rotate around areas of interest to actually create space. A more relatable example would be Ash and Atlas from Paladins, both can poke and even out snipe other dps but its a situational thing, in most situations they need to be close to be more effective
A small UI implementation that could make shooting the tank slightly less attractive could be to have your ULT charge meter flashing red when shooting tank. This will at least show the player the effect of reduced ult charge in some way
29:03 really?
I'm not on nobody's side here but I do listen to the discussions pretty regularly. I don't think I've heard Samito argue that extremes were fine in 6v6. Every argument I've seen him make, His point is that Tank designs could be more varied and accommodate to more play styles. His argument is homogenization makes tank a boring and unfun role to play and bottle necks the devs to make certain decisions that are only bandaid solutions to a format problem.
His argument for 6v6 is that we can have more varied play styles and synergies which to him is what made OW fun AND it would be easier to balance. Never heard Samito being in favor of broken characters/ extremes because he hated Sigma and Brig, he also thinks double shield sucked but it could have been fixed. Not arguing or anything just trying to lay out what I think he is trying to argue from what I've seen from him.
Samito did make that claim.
@@Ahmed_ElSayed01 did I miss that stream? I'd like to watch it if I misunderstood the arguments
@@themystikoneYou missed nothing. You are right.
Spill is using different wording to make it seem like it’s worse than it actually is
spilo is unfortunately disingenuously framing samitos words to further his argument. i'm sure that at some time samito has used the words "extreme" but he's pretty much always clarified and specified further.
Change the scoreboard. Bigger number = better person, this is how it is viewed in every game. Make tanks take 50% less damage and adjust their health so the visible impact of the scoreboard isn't as rewarding for mindlessly shooting the fat guy/girl. People will farm the tank all match, do the minimum 1 damage on a squishy and have a filled AF stat sheet thinking they did anything benefitting their team. When in reality they just gave the enemy Kiriko 69 kitsune rushes in a single KOTH map.
You could also breakdown damage based on who you did damage to so people can see who is just shooting the tank all game and get shamed into making better decisions.
You say that having two bad picks on tank in ow1 (hog and mauga on havana) is a downside to 6v6, but this makes no sense. If anything this problem is worse in 5v5. In 5v5 there is still going to be people locking hog on havana, but now there is no chance of another tank picking a hero to compensate for the weaknesses of the hog pick (for example playing sigma). Now the hog player has no other tank to play frontline while he flanks. You say you are a fan of homogenizing the tank role and I understand why but the reason why tanks cant be designed at more extremes is because they dont have a second tank compensating for their weaknesses. For tanks like ball and hog it literally didn't matter what the other tank ran as long as they took attention from them they could do their thing. Now their playstyles are completely gone.
I’d like to add how the community loves the “extreme designs.” It what made overwatch so good at first
Unfortunately you cannot design for strictly fun novelty extremes and have a balanced competitive experience
Your argument is bunk in the first sentence. If the hog pick Havana is problematic, then we’re talking about changing tanks so their weaknesses can be compensated for in their OWN kits. It requires a little more imagination than the brain dead 6v6 argument and doesn’t require you to switch off the hero you like. I don’t understand this fixation on trying to leave your win conditions in another person’s hands. Just change my character to have a fighting chance so I can make it work instead of another gamble on of my second tank will even have a clue as to what the win conditions are.
@@demetusbrown1962 how is 6v6 brain dead ? Because we don’t want tanks that can do everything ? Because we want tanks that can be punishable ? Because we want fun tank combos and synergies ? Because we want more and diverse team comps? Because we love the game that we fell in love with all those years ago that was ripped away from us and can no longer play it ? …… which one of those is brain dead ?
@@demetusbrown19626v6 was what made overwatch into the game people put up with 5v5 for.
This video was incredibly eloquent. I've been really starting to trend towards the idea of 6v6 due to most people's arguments for 5v5 being pretty trash. Your analysis of tank and it's actual problems really make me feel like I have a more full view of the big picture. I think 5v5 is definitely balanceable, I just hope the balance team can start to understand some of this.
As long as the game depends mostly on what support or dps your teammates pick then tank will always be miserable to play. If they can counter you by going to the hero select screen then that’s just bad game design.
I agree entirely. Counter picking should be a thing to an extent, but it should not be as rock, paper, scissors as it is now.
That's one of the biggest reasons I prefer paladins. You ban characters and when you pick a char, it locks it as well. Much more strategy involved.
agree, if your game has to force diversity then it's not a good game.
This doesn’t matter in ranks below masters.
@@mylegguy8115 It absolutely matters in ranks below masters, what are you talking about? It's even more of an issue now than it was in OW1.
Hey Spilo, I think you’re spot on about abilities that reduce the reward of “shoot the tank” strats being best for the role.
The best tank abilities reward the player for pulling aggro in a way that is visible to the player and appropriate for the hero’s goals.
Zar bubble is the most obvious example of this - damage taken to bubbles = charge. Likewise for another DPS-oriented tank, Doom block gives him a more damage/escape options (which he thrives at). DM allows DVA to counter rapidly without interrupting DVA’s pressure or movement (which she thrives off of). Sigma’s eat helps him absorb cooldowns and hold his position (which he thrives at). JQ’s axe helps her dish damage, keep up her passive, and cycle her cooldowns (all things she thrives at).
The abilities (and, often, heroes) who don’t turn pressure into “fuel” for their game plans feel more lackluster. This can be due to design that only priorities survivability (Orisa, Maura, Hog, Ram, Ball) or just not keeping up with the pace of the game (Rein, Winston).
The defensive abilities of Rein, Ram, Orisa and Mauga should help them brawl harder. Maybe let Rein’s shield absorb the elements of attacks and “infuse” his hammer/fire strike with them temporarily. Make Ram’s block in nemesis form give him a punish option to respond to pressure or boost his unique form cycling (e.g., give his base form an HP or DPS boost, or lower the cooldown on Nemesis form). Orisa’s fortify, like you said, should do more than just make her unkillable (maybe it buffs her teammates in a radius, like her old ult). Mauga’s cardiac should help him do more Mauga things (what those are I don’t know since I hate the role he fills as the tank-buster tank).
Ball, Winston, and Hog have more unique game plans that their abilities should support. Ball likes to move, so make his defensive ability help him do that (e.g., negate CC). Winston likes to cut up space with his bubble, so make it help him do that in a more responsive way (e.g., nerf the shield HP but make it do a tick of damage when entered). Hog likes to … I don’t even know, but I don’t think being a big fat sack of meat with infinite HP feels particularly fun, so that should be reconsidered too.
I wonder if giving tanks a health gate where if they drop under a certain health, they get dr and cc resistance or just complete immunity to give tanks more agency would work. It would solve tanks exploding and give them an extra second or so to double down and go in or back up and not explode
Edit: Im not saying dr for longer than a second similar to warframe shield gate to give like a second to decide and go from 700 health to 200
Honestly I think tanks should just have a flat reduction period.
Not only will it help against CC chaining but it will also aid in prioritizing more “appetizing” targets like the enemy Dps or supp.
I like ur idea!
@@funwalkthroughs1285 Flat reduction is the way. Unless the devs agree that more complexity is in the future of overwatch, introducing different thresholds overcomplicates things for people that don't read patch notes.
I'd like to see threshold mechanics for the different role passives IF the devs can figure out what version of it is going to exist for many seasons and IF they want the game to be more complicated. The damage passive should have a dmg threshold before it activates. Bring back that 10% heal-cancel they patched out so quickly too. This will push Junk back into the game a little bit and pull back tracer's strength at range. Constant application of the heal-cancel is a problematic part of her kit next to all her other strengths.
so basically orisa fortify on every tank and then on top of the unkillable dmg reduction (ram block, orisa fortify, etc) and immortalities AND sustain ultimates in this game. nothing would die.
resistance at a certain health threshold? that's just armor
Imagine orisa with this buff or road hog, they would be immortal and no fun to play against
27:25 I disagree. 6v6 is not going to solve everything immediately but its the right direction. 5v5 having more freedom for dps and supports is correct if you apply the logic of less frontline pressure, but it breaks down when you consider that the dps and supports are tied down by a singular tanks decision making. Thats not freedom, thats your impact being completely dependent on the competence of your tank, which is now just a boss version of the dps role lol. Its harder to have individual impact and 'carry' on dps and support than in ow1. The complaint about your team choosing bad tank synergies is pointless because bad support and dps synergies exist too, its just the nature of a team game. And i dont understand how you think extreme hero designs arent good but still side with 5v5 which has nothing but extreme designs to account for 1 tank (like mauga and the dps output of ow2 released supports)
Edit: Also why do we pretend that counterpicking is a bad thing because people one trick and may not be good at other heroes. This is a team game, play as a team, all these one tricks in one team just doesnt feel like players are synergising at all. A part of climbing ladder should be being proficient at your role, not at a singular hero
Overwatch is a team based game so really everyone need to be competent to play the game correctly. My team has a 3 OTP's (Doom, Torb, and Lúcio) and we still smoke masters and sometimes GM teams. Even though our comp struggles againt hard meta (Orisa, Soujourn, Tracer, Lúcio, Flex support) right now, we can play around it because of how flexible the game has become. I remember off meta being much more difficult in Overwatch 1. I fully agree with Spilo that the problem is psychology and not strategy because we win games we shouldn't purely off of pressure and holding cooldowns. Me (Lúcio) and my Doom absolutely feed our brains out, but we do an amazing job at pulling attention and let our DPS take free shots at the enemy team. We would fall apart if they just stopped shooting us and focused our vulnerable backline.
If it took the OW devs 2+ years to get OW built from the ground up for 5v5, how many years will it take for 6v6 to come back? Please don't tell me you are one of those guys who thinks they could bring back 6v6 next week. And how long will we have to go without new content/heroes/maps for 6v6 to come back? Asking for investors 😂😂😂😂
@georgealvarez1195 all you would need to do is tweak a few abilities and numbers for 6v6 to work. The reason it took 2 years to get ow2 wasn't because they were reworking the engine to remove features and an extra player, it was because they were making pve
@@georgealvarez1195 basically what the other comment said. They did not spend 2 years to build 5v5, they spent 2 years building pve, which failed and had to quickly come up with something to replace it with. This is clear because they said they had no intention of making ow2 have pvp but they went back on their word after massive complaints. So yeah blizz made 5v5 in a short amount of time so they could rebrand as ow2, they also didnt give us new content BECAUSE they were saving it for ow2 so it just doesnt apply lol, they can keep releasing content instead of gatekeeping it for the battlepass and shop since we already have that system now.
@@georgealvarez1195that comment aged like milk and I find it delicious
My perspective of tank is that I take space and PROTECC the team while making sure I can help push the team towards our objective.
I was just complaining abt what I call "defensive installs", with hog, orissa, and mauga where they press a button and become way harder to kill. I wish Mauga had like a parry where he flexes and becomes briefly invulnerable, and returns damage absorbed as overhealth to himself and nearby allies instead of cardiac, or smfn like that. I just want tanking abilities that are hype yknow?
I think overwatch two should revert armor back to the way it was in overwatch one. This made high rate of fire/shotgun weapons less effective against tanks. This would make almost all of the tanks weaker against armor and since most of the characters with armor are tanks it would make the just shoot the tank aspect of tanking less impactful. This will allow Winston to better play into his counters and would allow for Mauga to be healthier in the game because he would do a lot less to damage to armor. This would also make reign better because he had the best armor penetration of the tanks back in overwatch one.
The counter swapping is always going to be there no matter what. I do agree with you though fully on the extremes. The game is either you are destroying or getting destroyed.
I don’t think 6v6 is a magic pill, but I do want them to try something because people are gonna stop playing Tank at this rate.
I hate 5v5 with a passion and i dont ever see it working, they butchered my beloved tank role so much havent played it since S3 or so.
Tried to give 5v5 a fair chance, but it just is Budget Overwatch, its infinitely less fun.
That being said, not even the Qtimes really hold up anymore, i mean overall they are still "okay" but as a F2P, Live-Service Game having Qs that get near to dead 2022 OW (I had like 8 Minute DPS Qs in Masters yesterday) is not good.
The thought process of 5v5 is "People dont like tank so lets reduce the players required" but then eventually, when you just keep butchering the role and only like 5% of all players Q it, the Qtimes will become even worse than in 6v6.
Sure we can try to come up with solutions, but the heroes are way to diverse, you wont ever remove Counterswaps + the pressure of a Solo Tank JUST ISNT FUN (Also Tank Duos allowed for more dynamic and fun interactions)
They have to try it again, i know it wont happen this year, but Blizzard will 100% capitalize on OWs former success and on people who just want to play 6v6, and if that happens i will be there grinding ranked and buying things again.
@@heiko2255 totally agree man. It’s funny you bring up the que times because I’ve noticed that a lot lately with my squad taking 5-10 minutes to find a game when usually we would load straight in. The tank roll ain’t fun and 5v5 only amplifies it.
I just want to duo again with my other tank friends instead of fighting for my life by myself against a Mauga.
people are already stopping playing tank. the queue times are under 30 seconds in metal ranks. its slowly becoming ow1 again
I played tank until season 9, not sure if im gonna touch that role outside of open queue anymore tbh.
This conversation is interesting for me right now because I'm currently taking a class called Human Systems Integration and its all about usability via products, organizations, or systems. One of the biggest thing is feedback for humans using a product. I think a lot of the time tank just feels bad because you could be providing value but that value isn't quite clear because there isn't direct (right away) sound or visual ques telling you if you did something right. If it didn't appear you simply wouldn't receive that dopamine. Getting kills is a quite obvious way of getting feedback and you know if you are providing value vs not. But tanks do provide value but there is no dopamine found in that role unless you are dominating. I think that is why it "feels" bad to play as a role. Blizzard needs to decide what they want their role of tank means, and apply and reinforce behavior with feedback in the game. It needs to be right away, and have a visual and audio que. Why do we think "dink" sound is so fun and satisfying? It's a feedback / response from the system right away. Edit: I honestly hadn't watched yet but 7:50 is exactly what I mean by what I said above. Put in some reinforcing colors and sounds and humans will react to that. 1:04:00 , this is quite literally my major. You might find interest in Human Systems Engineering / product engineering. It's making products intuitive to others.
I also think that abilities or concepts that stop a player from playing isn't the way to go. It sucks, doesn't matter how much you balance an ability that has the goal of stopping someone's abilities it feels bad. Same as going to a website and you can't interact with it at all. It's just going to be frustrating.
Also, honestly bring back the card system. That in itself is rewarding for players to see. It equals dopamine and dopamine is what keeps us all in this game. "Shut down __ ultimates" "Pulled ___ CD's" Why not list forcing CD's in stats? It's similar to mit, you are pulling resources and making opportunities for your team.
damn this is kinda true, i mean tanks would atleast know how much of a slave they are with some of the stats that u mentioned, and it seems good even if it not solves all the problems the role have
like too much responsibility and stuff
@@cj7j My idea is to stop tanks from being singled out, and give more of a context to the fight.
Thanks for seeing value in my input :)
think itd be nice if there was bullet impact sound (for the shooter) against all tanks that sounded like a lesser doomfist block/orisa fortify
I find it so interesting how Overwatch is having issues with dynamic counter play and specialization when TF2 had the same problems with “specialist” classes like Engineer, Sniper, and Heavy being incredibly frustrating to play against and sometimes as. Hence why the competitive 6s community moved towards banning weapon unlocks that favored these three (wrangler + rescue ranger, mobility gloves, jarate, etc.). Scout, Soldier, and Demo have clear strengths and weaknesses yet have TONS of dynamic counterplay, so the 6s community favors them as “generalists.”
I really like the active defensive tools of dva and sig, I wish characters like orissa or mauga had more dynamic tanking tools.
i think dvas amtrix should do what sigs does and heal her too.
I think the issue with "being forced to frontline" is that your dps and supports often don't know how to play when they don't have a front line
i’m not on the same page as spilo as far as the psychology element, but if we were to lean into that we could make the volume of shooting a target inversely proportionate to the size of the target you’re shooting. shooting a mauga would produce a quiet and unpleasant sound whereas shooting tracer would produce a loud and crisp sound.
shooting tracer does a female in heat sound and shooting mauga does wet backshot sounds
1:03:25 "Make bad things feel bad and good thing feel good" Exactly like shooting tanks even though you get less ult charge, newer Lucio/Mercy players not using their utility speed since it doesn't give them any positive feedback, or like Mercy only healing zero damage boost etc. Punished for doing the correct thing
it is possible to have taunts in PvP games, you just have to be creative and reserved with how they are implemented.
I knew of it but I didn't quite understand the weight the psychological aspect of the game and specifically how that relates to tanks. I'm very interested in game dev stuff and don't underestimate the impact of game-feel, however I didn't fully comprehend the implications that has with the rest of the game. It's really facinating to see the model of Mechanics, Dynamics, and Aesthetics all interacting with each other here. I honestly have so much to say and wish I could have a verbal discussion about this with you as it's super interesting to think about but this will have to do lol.
I absolutely agree that tanks having less direct survivability and more indirect/variable survivability could be good for the game, you'd have more tools and it'd be much more dynamic and interesting and less braindead, and also it'd just feel like you have more agency over counters and cc and such than just having more raw hp (kinda like how sprint buttons feel good even if you could just make that the default speed without a sprint button, it feels like you have more agency because you're intentionally choosing to).
I think a positive thing they could do to is to give damage reduction more visual and audio queues for negative feedback. Shields look very similar and sound similar when you shoot them with no hit marker. Matrix/Grasp/Spin and even Deflect doesn't necessarilly have as similar aethetics to each other but they also remove the hitmarkers with less satisfying hit sounds. That negative feedback is missing with shooting damage reduction abilities, and hell even for shooting armor or tanks in general (those last 2 would need to be playtested tho too much of a good thing can be bad too). Perhaps the hitmarker could be not entirely removed but it's mostly dulled out under an unsatisfying blunt impact sound, and maybe there's some particle effects on the shots impact connected to that sound.
I could honestly go on with even more paragraphs about my thoughts on this and what exactly could be done but we'd be here for even longer lmao- thank you for making this!!
Ive always wondered about like an IGL 'role' in the game. Imo team based shooters biggest issue is how strangers interact with one another. I truly believe the average person doesn't treat it like a middle school basketball team, but strangers that people kinda think of like cashiers where they dont wanna interact, they just wanna do their business and get out. Imo the first team shooter to handle this in the average ladder would be the best game. Maybe instead of an overhead coach role or something though, you could give the tank a map where he can mark out pathing for someone without them being there themselves. Like making a super ping system for the tank so you can tell your team to setup an off angle via here before a dive for example. Or a rein can guide his hard brawl comp with pathing he chose that everyone sees. Itd probably be really hard to make this map and ping system super fluid cause it would need to be or it would possibly do nothing for the average player. My ideas probably too extreme and or only useful for higher levels tbh. I just REALLY wish i could queue a game for 8 hours and work with every player i get. I know thats legitimately only available in pugs or scrims nowadays which i think is silly. Truth is 10 golds can and have scrimmed before. Theyve worked together to the best of their ability before, even if its not perfect. But idk, for some reason that fun gameplay loop isnt possible in a matchmaking format. I wish thatd be pushed on a lil bit by any game.
i believe the sole problem OW failed to pull more players is the fact that they made MOBA shooter fun (-ish) but they skipped the whole communication thing.
I don't think asking for better ping system is not an extreme idea, I think it's a crucial part that they have been missing for years. League has it and it became a core part, and players don't even communicate w voice. OW is based on MOBA, it's not too far fetched.
It's better now in OW2. but still confusing as heck and i ended up spamming pings to give warnings.
Warning ping we have rn is a good start. we do need those more specific, like warning for an oncoming ult setups, fall back should be default. just get rid of those Thanks and affirmative pings. It's useless anyways, just for gags.
I believe there is an equal problem on the flip side of the coin that is getting overlooked here. It feels equally good to pump healing and defensive cool downs into the friendly tank.
I feel as though the argument that Sam was making with tank designs was overall a more fun experience while also allowing the balance of the game to shine properly. Yes, it isn’t fun for the DPS trying to off angle if they get shut down by the enemy off tank, but that’s where the counterplay and strategy came in on figuring out which off angle you took, which DPS took the angle, and how they would get out. All of this didn’t even require very much teamplay, you needed at most 1 additional player to assist the off angle. The ability to outplay the off tank and win the position was also available and extremely rewarding, albeit very long and arduous for both sides, but you could FEEL the tangible impact it made on either side.
Whereas now, tank DOES draw every ability, DOES have higher sustain overall, but does NOT (in most levels below GM+) have the capability to push people off their off angles without MASSIVE detriment or extremely well played team play.
Take, for instance, Gibraltar 1st. This point is NOTORIOUSLY bad in gold/plat lobbies because the tank either 1) cannot walk up and take the space effectively with their pick, 2) attempts to take the space on the correct pick without enough assistance and gets absolutely blown up for it, or 3) the team is actively communicating and they coordinate well around the point and steamroll through 1st. In all 3 of these examples, the tank is taking primary focus fire as a constant variable and drawing value immediately, but in the vast majority of these cases the tank falls over due to circumstances of their direct weakness being exploited while their strengths aren’t being capitalized on enough. Will homogenizing the role fix this? Possibly, but at the cost of possibly (what I believe to be the likely outcome) making the tank role even less fun and psychologically attractive to play, while making it more psychologically effective to shoot the tank because now they all do the same things and you know exactly what to expect every fight.
In 6v6, 2 of these 3 general scenarios could exist on Gibraltar 1st at the same time and the team could still ABSOLUTELY capitalize on it and win the team fight. This is where the hedging of bets (in my opinion) is WAY more effective in both a strategy standpoint and a balance standpoint. The off tank could cycle in and out between drawing massive attention and dropping behind the main tank, forcing CDs and still getting massive value, while also making significantly more errors and still getting out. You could be unrefined in high masters and still get the value the role nets, but to a lesser extent. Now in 5v5, the tank has way less mistakes before their life completely explodes, not to mention the existence of only one tank makes the kiting portion of the tank playstyle in this example much less effective, if not entirely ineffective due to CDs depending on the comp. The 5v5 solution is one that relies entirely on players actively growing up and up the skill tiers without many plateaus, and there are many who play the game simply to have fun who see no desire or necessity in getting better at the game. So long as that remains the overall sentiment, the 5v5 solution is simply doomed to fail from a casual standpoint (in my eyes) and will remain extremely lacking in fun for the high level tank player regardless of the rest of the playerbase’s average skill rising.
That being said, I genuinely respect your ability to come up with what you believe to be solutions to the 5v5 issue, even if I disagree with the conclusion you draw with your statements. Your ability to articulate what you believe to be correct lends a lot of credibility and shows the amount of effort and time you put into trying to make it work. I truly wish more people on the 5v5 side could coherently explain their thoughts on the subject and their possible solutions the way you do without dumbing it down to “rose tinted glasses” like many do.
I'd like to shift more power into Mauga's charge. Lower cooldown, less startup time, more damage(or maybe even getting shields from hitting more people with it, like ball?). It could be used to reposition, disengage, deal damage, and if its wind up is shorter, to block CC.
The game needs to be 6v6 again. Period. The lone tank leads to so many bad situations. In particular, if your tank is bad for the given situation, and the tank doesn't switch, your odds of winning go down drastically. It sucks when you want to play a different tank like Hog, but the situation calls for an Orisa or something of that nature. You get pinched into playing a certain way instead of being the tank you want to be.
I like the idea of smaller tank hitboxes and sizes. It might even allow some tanks to straight up take less damage from strafing which is such a fundamental skill to have on literally any other character.
5v5 tanking STILL requires that your team covers your weaknesses, it just falls to the DPS/Supports rather than the offtank. What a silly argument against 6v6
I mean, that statement says that 6v6 wasn't better. Now you just have one less person supporting you, but also one less opponent trying to counter you.
@@MasterMemo but it also doesnt suggest 5v5 is better, when the og argument from spilo is that it suggests 5v5 is better. its just redundant lol. granted though, having another tank supporting you gives you more freedom to make plays and not be locked down taking damage in one choke like in ow2, so id take the extra tank countering me if it means i get to use my brain again lmao
@@Pyro-ky2rtsaying that you have to stand in a choke/frontline just means you weren't really paying attention, you are almost never forced to exclusively play like this and if you do you just suck
6v6 is also just not coming back as it's obvious that blizzard is not really interested, stamping your feet doesn't really help and not giving actual arguments gets you no where
@@lostmycat5671 i mean how else are you going to be present as a tank in 5v5? Suggest you stand off to the side, the enemy tank will just walk lol. 5v5 tanks were classified as 'brawlers' and so their whole intention is to be in the front, taking damage and dealing damage. This is done to allow the dps to take angles and supports to be safe. in 6v6, you could rely on another tank to take the frontline damage while you take an angle for a play to be done, and you can interchange this with the other tank by then being the next one to frontline in choke while they take an angle. You could also catch their tanks off guard when they do this. Whole point is there was a lot more skill required, 5v5 tanking is dumbed down massively and not fun. and whether or not blizz would actually do 6v6 or not isnt an actual argument itself against if 6v6 is better for ow2 anyway lmao.
WHAT IF :
- increase survivabilty with abilities (CC mitigation)
- slightly reduce hitbox
- slightly reduce damage
- do not show "damage dealt" for tanks but "efficiency" with a % scale. The more people shoot at you, the more CC you block, the more your efficiency is.
So you have a visual indicator if you are effective or not.
If the ana nades you, the bastion is shooting at you 90% of the time, their orisa spikes you 80% of the time etc. you get like "95%" efficiency displayed, so you and your team know you are baiting a lot of enemy abilities and ressources. This is the true value of tank role, more than damage dealt imo
youd need somethign else to counter balance it, but the start is similar to what the entire of this video is saying
so make them even more unkillable? shifing the problem to dps and healers complaints
I think geting all the insane cooldowns thrown in your face (anti, hack, javelin, hinder, sleep, rock, hook, discord orb, doom punch.) just to find a way to get a pick but no there is (pull ,immortality , suzu, res all the second chance cd"s like fade etc. and mobility creep i started to Main tracer just because i can out play my counters with her but I'm not touching tank because everything shuts you down
My biggest point with tank is that main tanking being the only form of tank in OW2 will never be fun when the impact of that is so vague. With the increase in mobility across the board my hopes are that people will learn to take space for themselves and then tank can be brought back to the fun of off-tanking - holding an angle, peeling for teammates in danger, and punishing those that go in on your teammates.
I just want 6v6 back because I had more fun playing tank, especially duo-queueing with another tank. I hate being gaslit by 5v5 advocates telling people "you're just nostalgic." I genuinely dislike playing tank atm in 5v5. Even if blizzard makes playing tank enjoyable in 5v5, I still think 6v6 would be MORE enjoyable. Tanking in 5v5 has lower lows AND lower highs than in 6v6.
I feel the same way. Spilo enjoys 5v5 more though. He is trying to solve the 5v5 tank problem, 6v6 would solve it, but he is brainstorming a way to solve it given one tank.
I would give a few of my organs away to be able to play rein zar or ball dva again. Not nostalgia in the rose tinted glasses way, but longing for a better time
@@pphaver871 The thing about fixing tank in 5v5 is that every solution I see requires a significant amount of changes, even changes I feel would be bad for the game. When we're at a point where we're talking about REWORKING Rein, you know the game is cooked.
I just hope we get a 6v6 gamemode added sometime soon. Or make it so competitive open queue has a limit of 2 tanks and 2 supports
@@narwhalz02you will not receive a 6v6 mode as blizzard knows better than to split the playerbase like this, tank feels completely fine up to masters most of the time... (not a tank main), I think a lot of people's issues come from trying to play tank as if they still have an off tank and supports that only heal bot, in ow2 every role just simply has more agency in a game including the singular tank player in the sense that picks are far less important, the reason rein needs to be reworked/buffed is because he is terrible at higher ranks and pro play, not at metal ranks or lower, plus the game has just simply evolved and power crept rein out a bit in terms of design, which I think is ok he needs some tuning
I disagree, I think that the highs of 5v5 tank are MUCH higher than they were in ow2, and its true the lows are lower, but the most fun and growth ive had in this game is learning how to properly play tank to avoid the lows.
the other 4 players on your team have an easier time vs 1 tank
you know how there's a crit sound on hitting a headshot? what if there was a yucky noise that happened when you shot a barrier/DM/sigma eat/bubble/damage resisted character/overhealth to change the psychology of shoot thing feel good
I wonder if 7v7 (232) would work in overwatch. It would probably be chaos and insanely visually cluttered, but i wanna try it lol
This is actually an incredibly interesting thought, never heard someone bring this up lol
What would the role distribution though? 2-3-2?
@@FairwellNoob2 tank 3 dps 2 support
@@MK-mm7ui That's what I said
No way these comments are real
How to make shooting tank less satisfactory - heavily reduce ult charge from shooting tanks, boost ult charge for shooting squishies, give bonus ult charge for securing elimination of squishies. Teams that focus more on that get more reward, team dragged to shooting tank get punished.
i disagree with this. the tank passive already does this to a pretty good extent. not shooting tanks IS the ult charge boost and making it more extreme in both ways makes it so heroes like sombra tracer are getting emp pulses every single fight without fail. also this doesnt help bastion reaper orisa comp just shooting tank even if it is less effective especially in low ranks since they are easiest to deny and blow up in general. need to look elsewhere to help the tank role
@@noglo5355 "shoot the tank" tank busting heroes still get value by eliminating the tank to create snowball effect, so in terms of neutral fight they will still be strong just not as useful in ult fights.
The current passive doesnt really change how fights take place, teams that shoot the tank are still rewarded most, from Bronze all the way to pro play.
If certain heroes like Sombra/Tracer become busted in fast ults, the ult points they require can be increased to keep balance, it will solve most of the issue.
I'm so glad I'm not alone in my way of thinking. I avoided playing tank in overwatch 1 because I though it was weird how no other role in the game hinged on the other person complimenting your pick, or visa versa, like tank did. I always though 6 v 6 did worse things for tanks expression of character than 5 v 5 could ever do, because of how in sync the tanks needed to be cycling out their resources. It made it such an extreme decision to decide to bubble a Genji instead of your other tanks in scenarios.
I always thought Ram shoulda been balanced around his Vortex, because as an offensive tool it's great for slowing prey down, and as a defensive tool it's great for making it easier for defenders to get away or kill pushers before they kill you.
i believe Ramattra is one of the best tanks design wise, Tempo threat, can handle a brawl, but can also poke, and i hope Overwatch's team keeps up with the tempo based heros (like doom back in OW1)
so far, the best video i’ve seen about the current state of tank
Free content for Samito 💀💀💀
I do hope he roasts this. We wouldn’t even need to argue this if they wouldn’t have deleted overwatch 1, I’d happily go back and play my dead game.
@@toons4934 watch their discussion on samito's channel, he didn't roast it in fact they talked to each other and politely brought points *like civilized people* . Who thought that would be possible 😮😮😮not you apparently.
you can technically have a long range tank, it would just be hard to balance because it would need some kind of agro pulling ability like bob that they could reposition on a cooldown. while they snipe from good sightlines or something.
Some of my ideas:
1- Doomfist: power block grants cc immunity in it's first second. if you successfully block a cc, cooldown refunded back. empowered punch removed. new ult ''the successor''. he gets access to his dps kit. When you activate the ult, doom does a slowing seismic slam as a start and gets 1 charge of rising uppercut and empowered punch. empowered punch has big hitbox and can be used vertically. you can ground punch after uppercut. let's say you uppercut one person and then punch him back to his team with empowered punch like bowling. To compensate for the power budget, we add 1 more second to both regular punch and seismic slam cooldown. this way he has his counter play and less obnoxious with his cc spam and more fun to play. We might also cut 25hp from his pool.
2- Orisa: We remove the fortify completely. extremely boring ability. she has too much ability anyway. To compensate for her massive hitbox and also provide her hero fantasy (immovable metal object) we give her passive CC immunity and make all of his health pure armor. We reduce the cooldown of spear throw and spear spin by 1 second. We might also explore the idea of making spin cooldown like dva matrix. spin is good because you can use it for mobility, defense and offense/cc.
3- Dva: her booster speed can be increased so he can act a bit more like winston. quicker engage disengage. her gun can have a bit more range against slim heroes. she has way too much armor dial it back a bit and add visuals for her defense matrix so we can see if it's about to deplete. dva is fine but i think her armor pool is too massive and her damage can be too weak against mid range slim heroes.
4- Winston: secondary fire needs some help to add variety to his gameplay and i think his bubble is too strong and overwhelming, uninteractive. forces enemies to swap. most heals and damage doesn't pass through before it's too late. it's like old mei wall where shooting it was pointless. winston bubble similar in that if you are not playing bastion or 5 man premade that bubble overpowering. move some power budget from bubble to secondary fire. secondary fire shouldn't consume any ammo and can be a bit more flexible in speed and damage.
5- Mauga: I played this hero a lot. You need to nerf his ammo. again. and buff his solo gun damage and solo gun swap speed. this will shift his effectiveness towards slim heroes rather than tanks. cardiac is dumb but i haven't think anything to replace it. cardiac shouldn't be a life steal and raw dmg reduction. i like it's teamplay aspect though. Incorporate cardiac to overrun, during and after overrun give him 1-2 sec of cardiac. it will fit his hero fantasy. make a new interactable, smart ability for him.
6- Rein: Not sure how you can keep his hero fantasy intact. he is actually overtuned imo but outdated. you need to nerf the other heroes. power/mobility creep too much. I would nerf his barrier, increase his movement speed when his barrier up and change charge so it doesn't pin anymore and functions like Mauga's overrun. Does a hammer hit at the end like Balderich in the cinematic. Add some animation cancel tech to his abilities.
7- Roadhog: unsalvageable. scale him down, make him smaller similar to doomfist and then make him dps. torb, bastion, mei category dps.
8- Zarya: incorporate her shield mechanic more to her gameplay. convert some of her white health to shield health and make self bubble instantly trigger shield regen. you can adjust the cooldowns up or down. i'd say +1 sec to self bubble, -1 sec to teammate bubble, also ult replenish full ammo. lower the rate of ammo consumption against barriers.
9- Ramattra: this is the weakest tank in s9 imo. they didn't adjust him for some reason. i think his buttons needs to be more responsive. everything has pretty high cast time. barrier, vortex, nemesis transformation all 3 cast animation needs to be cut half. his ult is trash now in s9. this is a good opportunity to take his win con from his ult and distribute it to other part of his kit. i'd say cut 25hp from his pool and give him more impactful offense. faster firerate with staff will help with accuracy and damage. more movement speed to his block. keep his pummel suck but overall increase his movement speed. 20% to %25, block penalty 50% to 40%. Add jump ability to his nemesis form(like baptiste jump) but make him vulnerable after landing. (like meteor strike) The ability is not for damage just for mobility. like you jump to high ground but you inflict self stun and you lose hefty amount of nemesis form. so you can't jump and brawl clear high ground. this is also a vertical jump not like winston. hold block and ctrl, ram squats and then does a clunky jump and then lands on ground and slowly recovers. buff vortex height. a lot. maybe make it detonate'able in the air but that might be too strong.
English not my native tongue so sorry if it's hard to read.
Finally! Someone gets what i've been saying for months now! We need less mitigation and more counterplay! Tanks need to die in a game of OW2 and if tanks do nothing but block and mitigate, then tank will always be boring meat shields! We are fighting players on another team, not bosses. Thank you, Spilo!
big brain takes, even though I fall into '6v6' camp and would want to see how it plays out in OW2
samito punching the air rn
Hear me out on my idea for reworking Mauga
1.Keep his guns the same but greatly increase spread more when shooting both guns
2.Change his shout (cardiac overdrive) to make it so his shout now does 5 damage to everyone in a 10m radius or what ever his cage distance is and forces everyone in that range to face him (like hog hook) but ur cross hair will be forced on to his head for about 1sec
3.Now while it’s active for 4-6 seconds all damage mauga takes will be converted into overhealth caping out at 500-1000 over health(including his passive) and no damage reduction with a 15sec cooldown
5. Reduce hp my 100
I realized halfway into the video this is sorta the generalist / specalist thing from tf2
One thing with roadhog that I'd like to see is a mechanic similar to Doctor from DBD who had a bit of the same issue for a while (one-dimensional gameplay)
Giving roadhog another vape-like ability that gave him a stronger and stronger buff of some kind the longer he was using it for (Like speed, or firerate, or even just quick melee damage ((I think indiscriminate damage buff would be too good))).
But it shares the same cooldown and pool as the healing one. So like, if you're going into an engagement against an ana you could burn the pool completely on the buffing one and become a major threat without relying on just staying alive, if you're going against a zen you can hold onto the charge for healing so that you get the mittigation when you're discorded and you don't just blow up instantly.
I think having easy sources of damage mitigation is fine IF they come with a choice to make. Like you said, shout is well designed because you're not just ALWAYS using it as a HP button, Sigma's abilities are well designed because they're essentially using their cooldowns as a resource, and they're versatile.
Essentially, turning roadhog's vape pool from "This is my second healthbar" to "This is either my emergency healing, or something I can use to push with" y'know? Plus it gives the enemy team a little bit more to think about against roadhog (Is he currently buffed, how much did he spend on buffing, if he's not buffed, it signals to hold off on burning a bunch of resources just to not kill him)
I actually like playing as roadhog a lot, and I love the concept of a tank that draws aggro by being a massive midrange threat, rather than one that draws aggro because if you don't kill them you just can't win against their team. I also like how part of his design is that he's easy to hit -- it entices people to shoot him even if they shouldn't, because dealing damage is satisfying.
Ow has such a macro level of gameplay that the right and wrong decision for the situation can flip in an instant which ultimately leads to " this shouldnt be this way". It becomes really complex in moments that trivialize the way your're playing and i think that becomes overwhelming to many, even myself at times.
Make a more bright and exciting dink noise proportional to the % of the target's HP that your attack is doing? Dull and plunkin when you hit a tank, loud and bombastic when you're headshotting a tracer?
to me i feel the tank problem coming from a DPS main is the fact that there kits are 100% better then mine and cause of that 7/10 times if given the choice to shoot someone and deal with them first i am dealing with the tank. If your going to use any CC use it on the tank, if you have a ult make sure you get the tank in it at least cause they are the ones that takes space and the ones that you cant really 1v1 unless you catch them off guard
I disagree with the way that impact has been categorised, I think the argument can be made that tank is currently more impactful, but that impact isn't something the tank player creates through any sort of skillful gameplay, the impact is there because the tank just exists, which means the impact of how you play and your skill at tanking is lower, but impact that you create in total is higher, if that makes any sense, and what effects the outcome of the game is the impact of your skill, which has been reduced making it harder to increase the chance of winning as a tank
this is some 4d chess perspective that Ive not heard when it comes to understand what a tank is now a days in ow2
I think this is what makes ball struggle. Even with the rework he still doesn't have the uptime of other tanks so if the defining quality of tanks is taking space over long periods of time he still misses that mark.
Ball had another tank to distract the team and share the cc. He had time to set up. Ball singular is focused by all CC
I love some of the ideas that were brought up, but I can’t help but feel like the off tank provides that functional survivability and counter play. Although I will say this is the first pro 5v5 argument that’s actually made me reconsider whether 5v5 could better
This was rough to sit through lol. Some good points, but some contradictions too.
Tank do not have identity that was always the case.
The simple fact that spilo has trouble finding a simple definition to the role is a problem in itself. There is no significant difference between tank and dps
Tanks should be brawlers and go back to having "passive" defensive utility leaving range damage to DPS
This in 6v6 is the only real answer
Spilo doesn't have trouble finding his answer. He goes one step at a time so the viewers can understand what he's saying holistically.
@@josephreynolds2401 it's not a criticism but his answer is kinda bad and convoluted because the real answer is a tank is a just a Big HP dps right now.
Their big hp is the only reason they can menace longer, give soldier 700hp and he becomes basically orisa
@@vopcracker3193the identity will still be a problem is 6v6.
I do agree that 6v6 will help in alot of other realms I do believe it is the superior format in raw gameplay but there is massive drawbacks too
Splitting the healing, counterpicking , tank decision making , dead by daylight support meta , CC , learning curve for new players
But it will make worse: individual agency / impact , shooting people vs mitigation, healbotting. But most of all QUEUE TIMES
I'm very afraid that queue times will be abysmal they would double the need for tanks and at the same time all this time we basically recruited half as much tank players than the other roles compounding the effects .
@@darkvinc My argument is that the HP and hitbox adjustment across the board left tank out to dry. They are 10-20% behind other roles on relative HP and are most susceptible to the damage passive. Both of these together make it so that they can't commit into damage or space creation because they are so focused (theoretically) on their own survival.
Big DPS argument doesn't hold up because Sigma and Winston don't do overwhelming dmg and can successfully control zones very capably.
Hog, Zarya, Mauga, Rein do feel like they're made to fit a "Big DPS" mold....maybe that's a problem. I've been saying that all tanks should have the same control in their respective range as Sigma does at his range. I dont think it'll take identity overhauls to push other tanks onto this path.
Season 10 trailer seems to overtly address some issues with Tank fragility. It'll be easier to talk these things after it releases.
I think just as we did with supports at the beginning of ow2. we are power creeping tanks, not to the same extent though but still power creeping them. The more they have to change, the more that one more buff to something in someone’s kit will break them, thus buffing other tanks to counter that buff. And when that buff gets nerfed or reverted, then one character that was kept in check by the op character, is now free to rule the game without said counter. Thus creating a loop.
Im curious, do you think Sombras rework is extreme? she is essentially designed to do 1 thing particularly well. hack, Virus, Shoot, translocate, go inviz ... rinse and repeat on any squishie. sure she has the sombra76 playstyle but that obviously does not utilize of all her tools.
i think the only way to make tank feel good in 5v5 is to significantly reduce the oppressive abilities efficiency and duration when applied to a tank because they are the easiest target to hit and are hard to miss. that’s the key, to get to that level without nerfing supports or dps you can change the tank passive.
Updated tank passive: in addition to the current tank passive, all negative status effects affecting a tank are reduced in effectiveness and duration by 25-40% (number is subject to change). abilities that can’t be affected by the reduced effectiveness will be hit by the reduced duration and vice versa. certain abilities will be double dipping in the sense that they will be reduced in effectiveness and duration such as anti nade and the dps passive. disincentivizing shooting the tank at all times. i think this will at the very least make tank feel a lot better to play. mei slow and freeze wont be as good, hack won’t last as long, sleep will be even quicker, discord will be significantly weaker on tank, anti nade will be fairer. obviously some tanks will have to be toned down if this happens
Fully agree. It currently feels like you have to bait literally every cooldown before you can properly engage, because any one of them can effectively kill you.
This might be true, but it also makes playing tank incredibly boring again which will end up in the old issue of nobody wanting to tank again.
Did you not watch the video??? Flat reductions bad. Skillful counter play good.
@pandurlolgg5780 why would it make tank more boring? For me, CC, anti and discord cause some of the most frustration when I play tank. If they weren't as powerful against me, I'd be able to make more creative plays. Tank is boring right now because you explode when you try to do anything ambitious. You have to spend so much time behind cover as well with DPS passive.
@breonmyers2154 adding a passive to reduce status effect power on tanks wouldn't make the game less skillful. The biggest effect would be making tanks less attractive as a target for the whole team's cooldowns. More nades, discord etc on squishies which I feel adds more choices and depth. Currently, everybody just spams their cooldowns on the tank. It might not be the ideal change, but it would be positive. If you think all passive resistances are bad, you didn't think critically about what you're listening to. Also, spilo didn't even say that. He said that abilities with only one use are bad. Passives are a different category.
My idea was reworking armor into something that blocks damage from each enemy, maybe even reduce or block CC until it's broken
It would also not give ultimate charge and could not be healed, in order to punish teams that dump all their resources into the tank
maybe also have certain weapons deal less damage to armor (reaper, mauga, bastion etc)
25:25 same thing can happen in overwatch 2 like what happens when you get a rein on Havana or roadhog on circuit Royale but with 6v6 there's another tank that can make the right choice of tank so even the roadhog or rein atleast have a chance to playthe character they want and still have impact. But in overwatch 2 tanking is more map dependent than player dependent
It's simple. Forget 5v5 or 6v6.
The answer is 7v7!
2 tanks, 2 DPS, 2 Supports, and one person who just likes to watch
The real over *watch* was the voyeur we found along the way
Funny. They tried, 4v4, 5v, 7v7 and 8v8. Six only worked
the haircuts are too expensive problem: SOLVED
Honestly Tanks should be lethal in their effective ranges because they need to be able to threaten others out of their range in order to make space. Sometimes it feels like there’s too much emphasis on the challenge with getting into and staying in that lethal range when everyone else can dash, fly, sleep, knock back and just outright avoid and bypass you.
It just sucks because a lot of the time it feels like the way you play tank is hide in a corner until you can deny someone and then go back to hiding.
*Sees video in recommended*
“Oh that’s neat, I wonder what he thinks should change?”
*90 mins*
“Oh”
I like SVBs pitch on group up of 5v5 Open Queue with a 2 per role limit. Open queue in its current state is actually super underrated but 3+ support comps are pretty much unbearable.
I wanna see Spilo V.S. Samito talking and debating
FF14 sort of handles tanks like I feel you are implying, in that they are just fat DPS with mostly defensive CDs instead of offensive.
Why is the high elo complaint 'tanks crumble to focus fire way too fast' but the low elo complaint is 'you're losing because you're shooting tank too much'?
But you can make tanks force people to look at them. In Smite they have a many tanks that pull the entire enemy team to them, latch on to one person and not let them go, fling them to thier team, lock them down for several seconds, and there is another tank who specifically forces someone to attack only them for a few seconds. They all have abilities that either force you to look at them or fling/pull you into their team. Of course the trade-off is that they do 💩 damage.
I feel like making the tank hit sound effects worse could actually do a lot for this.
So the only benefit of 5v5 tanking is that… it’s easier for the other roles to not have to deal with the offtank who was doing their job properly (and having fun doing it?)
Okay lmao. Well I guess if we just sacrifice the fun of the tanks then the game is better! I sure wonder why the role is shit to play.
Sincerely, an offtank player
I mean I feel like you guys barely watched the damn video, he's clearly talking about how oppressive off tank made DPS and support feel like shit but now in ow2 tank feels like shit, fwiw I think tank still feels fine for most of my games, a lot of people just suck and blame the role though
@@lostmycat5671except the off tank wasn’t oppressive and he’s gaslighting you. Most average lobby’s literally didn’t play like how he puts in the video period. This is a manipulation tactic. Also, you don’t play tank enough to know why the role is terrible. You’re just going off of these 5 good games you had on the role and coming to a conclusion that people just suck at the game without being aware of the fact that you can easily just say that in ow 1, the off tank wasn’t oppressive and most players just suck. Double standards much?
The opportunity for more active and aggressive engagements is way higher now for ALL ROLES. Everyone forgets the games when your team simply cannot break a choke or couldn’t take the off angle that could create the needed pressure to win the fight because there was another player there who won because they overpowered you with stats. This happened constantly in lower ranks. This resulted in teams solely winning fights with ultimates by stand still and shooting the two meat blocks in front of them. This extra focus on shooting tanks then made the whole game a battle of attrition and didn’t incentivize supports to do anything but heal bot and build their ults too. The switch to 5v5 and free to play has introduced a whole gen of players who have been playing the version of the game that rewards more active decision making and better positioning. Now we expect people to be happy when we slow the pace of the game back down and remove more of the fps aspects that so many of these new players have been enjoying and replace it with the much less satisfying MOBA aspects that people complained about in OW1? I just don’t buy it for a second. I’m perfectly happy with trying to rework the tanks to offer more counterplay and decision-making options to be proportional to that of the other roles but in 1 player. Setting up an engagement for my team without the necessity of another player is perfectly fine for me.
Sincerely, a maintank player.
@@demetusbrown1962 this literally did not happen in lower ranks. It just didn’t. Not only were tanks very kill able, in the lower ranks most tanks would sit in the front line. If this was a problem it was because the supports like bap/brig just erased the tanks mistakes constantly denying everyone’s value. THATS what people didn’t like, the constant denial ability’s and of course characters like sig and orsia. Like people keep trying to paint this picture that tank was just the overwhelming stat monster that couldn’t be stopped that was so bad for the game when supps like bap were introduced. I don’t care about how it “opened up” the game more for dps because that’s the problem with the game now. Dps can just walk on top of your team and all you can do is just watch and die. You may want the tank role to be homogeneous but I’m telling you right now nobodies gonna play it for the same reason nobody wants to play tank in the other games. Overwatch 2 tank is why nobody likes tank in other hero shooters. No proactively only reactivity , little carry potential. 5v5 is not sustainable for the game at all period.
Sincerely, a off and main tank player
@@depthcharge5091 tell samito to teach his viewers some reading comprehension when you pay for your next sub. I’m saying supports were the issue of 6v6. That doesn’t mean supports were having more fun. The average support player was afk shooting their tank all game and building their ult because THAT is how 75% of fights were won across ALL ranks. There was nuance to it as there is all things, but the psychology of the game incentivizes that and they hated it. How are you going to solve that? Support gameplay has been undeniably improved in 5v5. Dps players like to play it, they get to be more aggressive with cooldowns and use natural cover and with one less person mitigating, they have more agency in their games. A large sum of the players are supports and nowadays you see cool clips and more montages and creative plays. Gold and plat players actually take duels nowadays. I personally like that the community has evolved in a way that shows real tendencies towards preferring skill expression instead of just thing that stand behind you to feed you their cooldowns. Supports as they are now are way too strong for 6v6 and everyone knows that. How will they react when all that agency gets reduced again? Mercy and kiriko players complain over the smallest number tweaks. You’re going to sacrifice that large of a player base just to make a drastic and under-thought change? Ignorant, to say the very least.
Sincerely, someone with forethought
Tanks were fun in Overwatch 1, dps were just more fun when you don’t understand the game.
When Overwatch first came out people only wanted to play dps. But once people figured out having supports and tanks on the team makes it easier to win, more and more people started trying tanks and supports they liked.
Tanking got extremely boring towards the second half of OW because the good tanks in ladder were very boring.
If they added more tanks, reworked CC’s, made bigger more open maps, removed 2CP and reworked problematic heroes like orisa, BUT kept 6v6, I think the game would be in a different better place.
A lot of tank players are upset because we’ve seen through the blizzard cracks of the failures of the company, PVE, balance history, poor game direction decisions, etc.
There’s no hope in Overwatch 2 as a brand, for fuck sake we were stuck in pay to win metas every other season, being the one guy pressured into playing a character to win is worse than when you had somebody to help carry the load with you.
And to still have that 2 logo slapped on the front of my favorite game, without being able to play the game I fell in love with is just a disgrace. And to defend blizzard and team 4 for so long after they turned Overwatch into a soulless cash grab with no direction is just beyond me. Not saying you are doing any of this spiło it’s just a sentiment I and many I play with in on console share.
Overwatch reminds me of smash bros because of its niche, its depth, its hardcore fan base and also the fact that the developers are in way over their head when it comes to balancing their game.
I'd be interested to know what the game would look like if tanks had resistance to almost all cc (so for example probably just leave a heavily reduced sleep nade, heavily reduced Lucio boop and cc from other tanks). From a lore perspective it seems kinda ridiculous that you can have this colossus character that can then get pushed around by people.
Tanks currently only resist knockback, ie soft CCs. They need to also resist hard CCs and debuffs, like anti heal, discord orb, etc.
The game would be miserable for supports at that point. That’s the issue with 5v5. To make tanks viable in this format, you have to take away agency from other roles.
Tbf tank has no agency at all at the moment so evening it out wouldn't be the worst thing. @@chiefinasmith
@@BilboBaggManor just make the game 6v6. Why are we changing the game so much when it was fine before. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it
22:38 I would argue that 6v6 tanking was actually the MORE diversified option in my experience (in OW1 I fluctuated around silver-gold). In games at my rank, chances were pretty low that either team would 1) pick 2 complementary tanks and 2) play them coordinated and well enough to gain a big advantage. It did happen but people were mostly playing what they wanted. Sure you might get a flanking hog but at least you have another tank who may provide some more value. To me, OW2 is the real "all your eggs in one basket" situation: if your one tank gets countered and they don't want to swap or can't play other tanks well, then it's gonna be a real rough game. I'd rather have two options for picking a decent tank for the team comp and map; additionally as was mentioned that second tank can help cover the weaknesses of the other, which also sounds more "diversified".
In my view, 5v5 tanking is actually the "non-diversified" portfolio. Maybe what you say is true for mid-high brackets, but at the lower levels it wasn't that big of a deal, and it sounds like for "pro" play and high end comp it wasn't either.
i dont understand his argument that having 1 tank is diverse? when you loose your whole bet when you go hog and one of the two healers pick ana.
Idk if I’m crazy but, if there’s a hog and dva on the same team, there isn’t going to be a safe place on any map for squishies
I know alot of people whine about tank synergy, but my biggest issue with it is the focus fire on tank, you went from the entire team looking at you while someone protects you and shares that load, to being the only person people blame if a fight is lost. And the worst part is, its often true, tanks can have yhe most mental skill expression, but they are FORCED to carry the team on their backs unless you have a superstar dps that makes the enemy team wonder where *our* tank is
if they add CC parrys they should make a loud noise so everyone knows it happened and isn't surprised like "YO WHY DIDNT MY SLEEP DART HIT?????"
What if they removed reapers lifesteal and made enemies he kills drop some kind of orb or something that heals him a set amount? Then he'd be less encouraged to shoot the tank all the time.
Tanks for example Orisa and Mauga, must have better interactions between the other tank cast in terms of their abilities, limiting the counter swap game, giving you more chances to outplay rather than just dominate the matchup.
Ive personally found a lot of enjoyment from the 5v5 tank playstyle and really to be honest dont really see where other tank players are coming from when they say tank is horrid to play. Genuinely think that they either have paper mentals and cant handle tank fundamentals or just have a massive skill issue that they avoid by blaming the game/role
and this is why otisa was super op. Good breakdown
I'm gonna propose something kinda crazy but I think it would be better for the game, counterswapping should not be instantaneous. There should be a 5 second (or even longer) delay for swapping. In a game as fast paced as OW that could genuinely make a difference and there is little psychologically that bothers us more than having to wait so it's an additional way to make counterswapping psychologically less attractive
Simplifying the game is not a positive. Yeah as I keep watching this, I keep seeing arguments being applied to 6v6 that you can easily just apply to 5v5 as well.
Only thing I don't like about the DPS did nothing in 6v6 when the damage per kill has shot up so much since ow 1.
In overwatch one a dps could at least kill a tank
Holistically speaking, i think the issue with tank is trying to make them not fall over when focused 1v5, while not making them oppressive in a 1v1.
they just need a passive that lets cc and common tank buster abilitys to be slightly reduced. For example something like "steadfast- all debuffs & cc are 20% less effective" they had already figured it out with ana sleep dart, I dont see why the whole game can't have that