The Second Great Tank Debate feat. Flats, Freedo & Bogur
Вставка
- Опубліковано 7 сер 2024
- Timestamps
0:00 Introduction
1:54 What Is The Tank Meta?
19:30 How Did We Get Here?
23:30 Where's The Fun?
38:40 Why Is The Tank Meta So Different Across Ranks?
55:25 How Do We Address The Knowledge Gap?
1:11:00 Do We Need To Revamp The Ranked System?
1:26:00 How Do We Encourage More People To Play Tank?
1:42:00 Are Winston/Rein Core to the OW Experience?
2:05:30 Are DPS The Problem?
2:21:50 "Only Blizzard Could Mess It Up Like This"
2:40:06 What Is Comp? Do We Need a New Queue?
2:50:25 Buff Some Tanks!?
3:05:20 Concluding Thoughts
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Freedo's UA-cam: / youroverwatch | Twitter: / xfreeedo | Twitch: / youroverwatch
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This podcast was tons of fun! I kinda came in unprepared so I hope I did good and maybe changed the opinions of some of your or taught you something new.
Thanks for having me and I hope we can make more stuff together in the future!
[Insert PogChamp Emote Here]
You were rad dude. Hope we see you in a future debate!
I loved your take on many things ta k related
really loved your thoughts, you are top-tier, and I also love Winston, cheers!)
Yeah bro you’re a boss on Winston.. I stay watching your unranked to GM to try and learn/get out of plat
I don't know why some people are hating on Freedo or saying he's out of place. He's a high enough level player and has a deeper understanding of the game than a lot of the community, and is creating content FOR US. So I for one, would like to thank SVB for putting this together.
Also, everybody wish SVB a happy belated birthday! It was his birthday yesterday! Let's go duuuuuuudes!
@Abhinav Banerjee Freedo and his youtube channel, "Your Overwatch", gets criticised on both blizzard forums as well as reddit. Which is why I brought it up.
It's Samito we hate, not Freedo generally. But Freedo simps for him hard so he is by extension, not always the best source.
@@BookofConke we?! No I love samito his takes are accurate
@Abhinav Banerjee okay? He's not allowed to want to win nigga!? And brig is op she can do everything without trying to, Pepega
Because his opinions are regularly garbage filled with inaccuracies. His "coaching" videos consist of you should just switch off this character and I'm not going to provide you any relevant information on this hero.
We just need orisa to be in dive
everybody gansta until the orisa in comms says "IM DIVING THE ZEN!!"
I play orisa like a play genji ;)
@@oxgenmelter5595 feeding 1v6 is nothing new xD
I feel like I've heard this joke somewhere else but I don't remember where-
@@MadMax55777 it was a joke 😭
@@oxgenmelter5595 I get it, mate :D
I remember playing 10hrs a day on tank and then going to sleep excited to play tank again the next day. These days it's hard to play 5 games in a row as tank, feel like if u don't play double shield or have a brig/bap u become a punching bag. It's not fun, I want to play literally any of the other tanks, but I can't lol
I agree with this I went from doubling my play time on tanks in two seasons to playing almost none
Yeah it's only fun to play zarya or hog and rein is only playable when you have an ana pocketing you
Its just not fun to play tank anymore honestly. I used to primarily play tanks like rein, winston and zarya, but now I just dont even want to bother. With all the cc, one shots, and power creep on all dps, why bother? You have shield for half a second before its completely gone, then get rushed down. You make space and then nothing gets done with it. Even double shield feels stale. I love overwatch but they really did make playing tank a chore, which is why probably people play more solo potential characters like d.va, ball, or hog.
I play in silver, I've won 9 of 10 games as Sigma so I dunno lol
@@BrofUJu Sigma is one of the best duelists though (if you can hit your shots)
Thank you for bringing Freedo on SVB, a lot of people love to hate but he’s the non-vocal majority’s hero!
@Abhinav Banerjee samito: waaaaah brig and Orisa are boring waaaah
me: haha fusion driver goo brrrr
@Abhinav Banerjee But Freedo simps for Samito so he is by extention not a great source.
@Abhinav Banerjee I hate Freedo, he is so elitist in the way he talks.
Freedo has some good opinions, but he thinks his opinion is way more relevant than it is, he's not a horrible player but he's not amazing, so when he speaks on metas and stuff, he has the knowledge but not all the experience if that makes sense
The hell he is.
Who hurt you sweet Bogur? **strokes hair** Who hurt you? Bogur: Fugging double shield, man.
@Abhinav Banerjee Nope, just agroed, it's a gaming term used mostly in the MMO community, though it's usually spelled with two g's.
@@agroed like brig getting all the aggro when ever there is a new patch?
Aggro is like a attention right?
@@reynauldwhistles2338 Haha, or Orisa, yeah, lol.
@@reynauldwhistles2338 Exactly, but it's usually a bad idea to aggro a Brig 1v1.
She is basically the final boss, common sense says: don't do it.
Just slowly nope away and don't poke the dragon.
And yes, she gets all the hate, she is Satan 2.0... Brig is the ultimate Mei successor.
lmao love your comment. Double shield does suck for his amazing monkey
I really enjoy SVB being devil's advocate here and being a good host. The vocal minority was a great moment, really redirected the conversation and gave a perspective check
I'm sure a bunch of other main tank players will agree that a late Hog swap is because of inconsistent healing.
Small buff to speed boost, and buff Winston armor. We don’t need more damage or shields but initiation / movement problems are mostly what’s holding some of these tanks back.
Ok but that rein guide by freedo 🔥🔥🔥
Lol Freedos channel has no content. There is not one video on his channel. Nice try
@@catra195 oh not that freedo, I’m talking about first name: Freedo middle name: Your last name: Overwatch
wishing guides foused less on the mistakes the player in vod review made and more on the mistakes the enemy made that they can punish. if its all about mistakes...point them out maybe?
@@micmccond7 this is a bad mentality. By focusing on punishing enemy mistakes you are doing 3 things... first not addressing and sometimes reinforcing your mistakes, second relying on enemies to make mistakes to win yourself and lastly relying on an unpredictable strategy that falls off drastically when you climb instead of actually learning the game
@@micmccond7 The point is that you learn when to spot mistakes by improving yourself. This is something that just comes naturally over time when you work on your own gameplay
I like that this is an ongoing series. I thought that we would only get one of these, and I was sad because I thought "oh the meta will change and half of this conversation will be pointless in a couple months." But I totally intend to keep watching these as they continue to come out.
In the metal ranks it’s hard to run meta tank comps because “teammates just wander off and do random things.” This touched me on a spiritual level.
Was duo queuing tank in Platinum at the height of the Hog/Zarya meta. I remember a game where the entire team turned on my friend and I because we weren’t using a shield. Even though we were dominating the game as Hog and Zarya, we were winning, the dps were getting picks and the supports weren’t being harassed. The entire team was screaming at us to go Rein. They just had no concept of how to play without a shield. Without a shield the team has no shape and people can’t position at all. But if I go Rein the game is awful for me, I cannot carry and the team will probably lose. Overwatch has issues that Blizzard seem to refuse to address season on season.
Lmao some people dont realize ur supposed to be peeking the entire time and need a rein to literally babysit them its very frustrating. Its not even an OW problem, I think lower ranks just dont understand space. you dont need a Reinhardt to take space and open lanes is all u need
"everyone had so much fun during the Genji meta"
Wanna bet?
Those 40second blades. So much fun. Noone can get an ulti in time to have a decent counter. I really enjoyed being instakilled as support.
The ana on my team had a blast sleeping every genji
It was a lot of fun indeed. Furst time in 3 or 4 years when genji could be a true dd and not just shuriken poker/bladebot
As an Ana main I was having loads of fun
Moira mains were malding because they realized they weren't good enough to survive a nano blade
IOSTUX video on positioning is what taught me about why to take high-ground
@Abhinav Banerjee But from that higher angle, you also can hit more headshots, because their head hitbox is in more in front of their body. Keep at it man, I know from personal experience how frustrating Silver can be, but you can do it!
@Abhinav Banerjee That's more because you have less space to move around. Imagine a globe, right?
The circle at the bottom and top is smaller than the circle at the middle. That's why it feels disorienting
@Abhinav Banerjee Try to move away a bit further from the enemy so it decreases the amount of verticality in your shots and also gives people who want to contest you a harder time.
You don't need to be directly above them unless you're running away
Obi wan kenobi taught me about taking the high ground
Silver?! *shudder* There's a LOT of great workshop codes for practice on headshots, high grounds shooting pharamercys, etc. 10-30 min warmup/practice every time and I guarantee you'll be gold in no time!
I was finally able to catch this live! I will never not listen to these I learn new things every time a new Debate comes out. Much love SVB and the guests!
4.2k and 4.4k SR are different cause at that level SR rises slow af.
Resulting in 200 SR basically turning into 500 SR worth of skill lower down.
GM is more then one rank, above masters ranked has at least 4-5 more levels of wildly growing skill.
True. Every ~100 SR the skill level changes drastically
People in lower ranks play rein mostly because they feel like they have to
Team will complain for not having a shield or will just suck without it in lower ranks
And rein is the easiest shield hero to play there because he has the biggest shield
I personally like playing sigma or hog and can do absolutely fine without a shield if needed, I love killing people even when olaying tanks
Peak on tanks 3940, current 3400
Yea I find most people feel comfortable having a big shield but the low rank playstyle really doesn't need one
I've been finding lost of success on ball on control because both the game mode and the players themselves feeds into the more chaotic nature of the game where everyone can carry themselves on individual plays unlike the team oriented shield comps that people 'want' to play
Ball acting as a cooldown robber makes so much more space than any of the tanks throwing out shield wish they could make in low ranks. My team always gets so much value just from me going in eating all the stuns and sometimes nades living througb it and rolling away with some members of the enemy team chasing me on some occassions
It gives the dps players so much room to pick of players who aren't on the same page with their team
True. I'm 100 times better at other tanks compared to Rein but I don't want my team to deliberately throw because they're mad about not having a shield
So whenever we're defending Hanamura I sigh and pick Rein lmao
@@sandraswan9008 personally I love rein hanamura, cause its either rein/zar vs rein/zar or double shield. I personally hate double shield because orisa doesn't give me the sweet serotonin and I get to play more aggro on rein alongside a zarya which is uber fun
YEASSSS! YOU DID A SECOND ONE!!! I LOVE YOU SVB
Happy birthday Flats! (and SVB too :P)
Also...
31:13 "Just do something" and what that something would be?
Still, fantastic debate! A very complex topic, and all guests had great points.
For Orisa in terms of risk/reward, maybe an interesting mechanic would be that her gun fed off of her shield as some sort of shared resource meter? Like your shots would be stronger if you sacrificed shield health? Also, this is neither here nor there, but I always thought they should give her a kick move (maybe it could replace her fortify and have all-directional knockback to protect her bunker). But why would you make a horse character with four hulking legs that couldn't kick people in the teeth?!
Fortify is the only ability she has focused on her, might be better to replace Halt with something else. Orisa feels boring because 2 of her 3 abilities are focused on the team (everyone can use barriers and everyone can follow up on halt)
@Jake Pedersen what would be more fun? Kicking a reapers skull in with your back legs or pulling people in by pressing right click
Imho, if we actually want to get overwatch to a better competitive place, we need, in this order:
1)Hero ban system
2) Map Choice system
3) Catch up Tanks and supports with more heroes
With how Blizzard has been operating though, we’ll probably get hero ban at the end of OW2 lifespan and everyone will agree we should have done it from the beginning. Map choice will come super late or be very limited. And OW2 will come out with 5 new heroes: 1 support, 1 tank, and 3 Damage 😂
Your third point is key for me.
It is honestly a joke that they only released 3 tanks and 4 supports post release but then had time to release 4 DPS characters AND rework 2 damage characters, including reworking symmetra several times.
You want more people to play tank? Release more of them. Make them more fun and engaging to play. Stop having DPS and supports that literally can entirely negate a hero with the press of a button.
Tank is a role that feels so much more beholden to their team, yet is so integral to in game success. It baffles me how what is agreed to be the most important role is so chronically neglected
Bro I woke up at 3am and this podcast was playing 💀
Interesting but also a bit frustrating...like the prompt goes to "how do we address the knowledge gap" and then nobody even talked about it, it just went back into complaining about the problems of upper GM ladder. And then talking about how people don't play tank because the fun characters are weak? Didn't we literally just see stats showing that the "fun" tanks are still played by every other rank than GM, but people still don't play the role?
It’s about the number of players playing main tank/fun tanks, Not just the proportion. In high gold I get in a game within 12 seconds. Recently there’s been a lot of hog and ball which I assume are dps trying to play faster. As for the knowledge gap it is what it is. There’s Plenty of content creators trying to educate. The blizzard client literally showcases videos trying to educate on overwatch. I think it’s just casuals and people not wanting/caring to learn the game
Woohoo!! Been waiting for the UA-cam upload cos I can’t catch these live, much love SVB
With all this great content and great guests I always forget that you „only“ have 40k subscribers...
Bogur reeeally was a good guy for this debate
Nice chat, guys. This Flats dude is hilarious.
You should check out his UA-cam channel he’s got good videos
Youre insane bro, youre tutorials are amazing, slowly working through the different lineups but have 7 on Ascent all thanks to you!
Bro I like me some Flats but I love me some Bogur
SVB you do a great job as moderator and periodically summing everything up. LOVE your content
Lots of potentially insightful changes that I personally agree would be great for the game but these issues are definitely most prevalent at the highest ranks. Some of the points regarding how "fresh/stale" a meta can be a bit lost when its coming from the tippy top of the playerbase grinding this game for hours on end. Again, I truly do understand that this is still an issue and I do wish Blizzard would be more proactive and aggressive with their patches (even at the cost of "perfect balance") but staleness is something you're gunna have to deal with when it's your livelihood revolves around the game.
Thanks for the podcast as usual SVB! Looking forward to the next chapter.
22:15 That's exactly why i play Zarya since Season 2 and i studied her like some people do studies at university to get REALLY good.
My bubble usage is kinda garb, I can get high charge easy but never have bubbles ready when it's needed to save people
@@MoistChungus saving people is more useful than high charge a lot of the time. She is a tank not dps. Matchup dependent but a lot of time saving people IS what gets you that high charge. At least vs Roadhog or burst damage characters
@@MoistChungus the timing is super important aka the when to use it. check out canas1ians youtube channel. the vod reviews are old but in terms of "how to play with rein" are still good
Probably the best of these discussions so far! Very insightful
Crazy how a year later and this talk is still relavant
These great debates always make my shopping trips more enjoyable. Can't wait for more. I do wish you had someone like Harbleu or Poko (some well-known off-tank player) to break up the main tank circle-jerk :P, but I understand if no one was available.
Hey its you again, anyway no one plays tanks, and the majority of tank players are off tank players, its obvious they just like dps character whit 600 hp, not much insight from those players.
@@reynauldwhistles2338 Personally I play both but lean slightly more toward off-tank and honestly, the same can be said for a lot of main tanks as well. Sigma, Orisa (if you have good enough aim), and Ball are basically just DPS characters with huge health pools. Tanks have always been so powerful that aside from completely reworking the role, or introducing role lock, GOATs was never going to go away.
@@reynauldwhistles2338 To be fair, that's the reason they're so fun to play. They have feedback. Ball just has insanely fun movement and you can shoot, Hog hits those satisfying hooks and gets picks and can survive by himself, and the sound Zarya's bubbles make when you gain charge is like crack.
It's part of the reason DPS is so popular. It's the sounds, the big red skull that pops up when you're doing your job. Meanwhile, on Reinhardt, you have no idea if that damage you're blocking is impactful or not.
I remember a time around late 2018 early 2019 when people were complaining about D.va being meta for so long, someone said that they felt D.va was the gatekeeper of a lot of shitty metas
Look where we are now
Shows most people talk shit when it comes to overwatch because they're too lazy to try counter
Of you have to play dva for like 2 years its gonna get boring eventualy
@@pieterteerhuis4152 wrong :)
D.Va is the gatekeeper of Overwatch that has been trashed. Her 15 m matrix at the old recharge rate was a perfect balance. Her denial of Ana and hitscans kept the game at a healthy balance without her being overpowering. Nerf dva and buff everthing = all the crap metas. Except for goats, that was brig's fault
12:07 thank you again,, I appreciate all the clips.. definitely have learned a lot from just watching.. keep up the work bro
Hey could you make a part 3 of these debates? They are very educational and I learn a lot from them. Also the meta seems to have changed when I look on the stats and I can't figure out why or how. Thanks!
Dont always watch SVB but man these long form discussions are really great
I get this video was from a year ago but the question was asked why the difference between 4k rank and higher and the difference might be the break point where playing becomes a job or an exclusive recreational activity (as in it is the person’s one activity and they don’t do others). That may be the breakpoint where it’s not just playing for fun but now you’re essentially studying to get better.
As for what could be done to raise everyone’s skill, I think there’s a lot of bang for the buck with some quick tutorials or tutorial video built into the game that’s 5 minutes that lists off concepts with a short demonstration.
Great discussion, thanks SVB!
Can't believe I watched this all in one sitting such good discussion the 4 hrs flew by.
I really liked SVB’s monologue that concluded just before an hour and 49 min. I would also love Freedo to talk about comparative philosophy and other topics that I know somewhat familiarly, because he puts such a clean and concise spin from a yet nuanced and sophisticated point of view
My friend and I were playing overwatch last night and we both queued for tank in quick play
We both found a match in under 20 seconds
As a 20 season Reinhardt main, who recently switched to off tank. This is a important discussion that needs to be had, good job i enjoyed it. Hope Blizzard are tuning in.
You rock SVB! This was such an interesting discussion!
When Flats went off about Echo that resonated with me. She made tank so much worse to play. If she'd been any other role, or if we'd had a character in one of the other roles instead of her, it would have helped at least a little.
I'm just annoyed that she can potentially be a 1000 hp hero as a dps role
You want to kill Echo? Sike, she can press Q. You want to kill her copy? Sike, she can revert back and live. And immediately fly away. Because fuck you.
These are honestly my favourite videos ever!
another amazing episode, great job
The Overwatch Developers needs to massively add to their tutorial system. There are layers to the game the majority of the player base does not see because we are expected to learn the entire game from the ground up during matchmaking.
bogur hit on a great point towards the end there, keeping the content creators happy is vital. watching Dafran forcing symmetra bastion memes every game is much more enjoyable than watching someones eyes glaze over as they play double shield for the 1000th game in a row. It reminded me the game can be fun when i was getting worn out
Happy Late Birthday SVB!!!!!!
On the Ban > Pool stuff - League uses bans and I think it's a really good idea that promotes you learning to play other characters too. Obviously I don;t think it's a good idea in ranked because you're with randoms and how would you pick etc, but for tournaments or leagues like OWL it would be a really good idea and fun to watch
Reinhardt should have the rage ability cooldown that SVB is talking about. Mostly because it would be interactive for the player and also be a mini game with the opposing team so they're not feeding into his strength if they're spamming damage at him when they shouldn't be. I like the idea of the speed buff decaying too so he has to maintain it. Probably 3 seconds of increased immunity to crowd control and a buff to his movement speed when he gets attacked on a 8-10 second cooldown.
Increase walk speed and steadfast by a percentage modifier. So for every 10 damage he receives when he's raging, he receives a 1% buff to his steadfast and movement speed to a maximum of 30% walk speed and 50% crowd control immunity. All temporary speed buffs will decay after he stops receiving damage at the rate of 5% per second.
I feel like a change to Winton's tesla cannon mechanics could be cool to further enhance his place in dive comps. What if his tesla damage scaled higher when there are less enemies around to the value of 5 damage per enemy. This way he would do 90 dps if he's dueling somebody by themselves but he would be weak if he goes up against a rush comp that death balls. Maybe the range would be something like if there's more than 1 enemy within a 15 meter range, then the multiplier scales backwards so when he dives an enemy he'll do the initial 90 dps if they're by themselves but when a teammate is peeling for the person Winston is diving he now does 85 dps. If two people are peeling, he does 80 dps and so on and so forth.
This could promote better positioning knowledge for both parties as well as encouraging peel. This would also help him be much stronger against things like double sniper comps or chasing down players who are way out of position. Maybe the animation indicator for if a player is diving correctly with him would be if his tesla cannon's electrical bolts attached to the number of players he's going up against. So if he's diving a person that's solo, all the charge from the tesla cannon is zapping that enemy but as soon as another enemy comes within that 15 meter range, the charge splits to help indicate that he's doing less dps. It would also help to promote team positional knowledge if one of you're squishies are getting dove upon and are pleading for peel or you know they're about to require help.
I don't see how they're confused about knowledge gap. There's basically no game knowledge in the actual game. Based on the discourse, it's as if the hardcore playerbase knows more about the game than the developers based on the quality of information we get.
The "What is the tank meta?" segment in its entirety was legitimately therapeutic to me. I have been thinking literally everything these guys mentioned there about the tank meta and why picks are picked at the frequencies they are but its hard to put a finger on it when its just a clusterfuck of ranked games. The game legit feels broken currently at the tank level especially and it feels like its scrambled the entire playerbase's brains, no one seems to play the game in the "team oriented/enabling" way we developed over almost 22-23 seasons of shifting balancing from blizzard. The current meta encourages selfish and counter-intuitive play simply because the alternative to it is flat out inferior, its like winning by default. Thanks for the smart and heady content for people who play for more than just "frags" SVB, look forward to more, subscribed.
One thing I was always hoping Blizzard would add is either a comp game mode or a option for role queue where you can play 3-5 maps for a larger gain or loss of sr and more time to organize as a team.
The fact that there is NO dps in the game that is scared of a Rein or Winston coming towards them bc they can all delete them easily which is stupid like how are main tanks the least scary heroes in the tank role?!? Whereas they are scared of a hog sig zarya or ball. Personally I think it’s ok to buff reins shield bc he can’t do anything other than shield when he uses it whereas orisa and sig can use all their other abilities so reins shield should be much stronger and he needs the shatter and steadfast buffs. Winston could probably use a small armour buff so he doesn’t explode. But personally I still think dps need overall nerfs, and bap needs a revert on his ult and brigs repair pack should be removed or changed
Baptiste's ult is essentially useless down in the lower ranks and in some senses so is widow's but I think it needs shrinking a bit it's a bit too powerul
@@jplayzow That’s kind of true but that’s also down to the fact that people see everyone grouping up in high ranks and using immorality and amp matrix effectively in gm but in lower ranks on bap u should just use it selfishly to get a pick or two or maybe say to one of your dps to come stand with u and use it together.
@@Chaz-Support the thing is in low ranks we have that same I am jesus christmas I will never join chat or group or whatever kinda nonsense and most of us can't aim for the life of us which is part of why we're stuck down here I agree the ultimate isn't the problem so much as us but I do feel like it was a bit small for us to use effectively considering the lack of awareness and if their ult is basically useless the hero will go basically unused compared to someone like Mercy whose entire kit is "what are aiming we no do" you're right in the we need to be grouped but that is the problem: getting people in a spot and not dying
DPS are easily the worst role in the game again. If you don't play a ranged hitscan, you are borderline useless. DPS don't need nerfs, tanks need to be changed to feel like tanks again. Not fat DPS like Sig,ball or hog who don't follow rules and make games feel like ffa
“Brigs repair pack should be removed or changed”? She’s a healer dude with the least healing potential out of all the supports. The repair pack should be buffed if anything.
I really feel like when I'm playing tank, the moment the enemy dps plays mei, echo, sym of torb, I can't do anything as rein, zarya, Winston or dva. I'm a high plat/low diamond TANK. also my team almost never hps in these ranks and semi force me to play sigma, hog or Orisa.
My main problem with playing tank is my teammates. 90% of the time I pick Rein or any other shield tank, my teammates avoid my shield at all cost. I've seen multiple times a McCree actively stepping away or in front of my shield to use his ult just to get headshot by a Widow. Or supports running past the tanks to heal the Genji who was jumping at the enemy frontline alone.
In low ranks the dps tell you what tank to pick and then ignore you for the rest of the game. "Tanks, play double shield" *instalocks doomfist*
That's why I (and probably a lot of other people) just play Zarya for example. You get way more value out of it and can adapt more easily.
Comps mostly don't exist in low ranks. Some people try to imitate comps but don't know how and when to play them. And that's okay, I'd rather my teammates play who they play best and adapt if it doesn't work. Just don't tell the rest of the team what to play, and then ignore your team, feed and blame everyone else.
I agree that content creators or maybe Overwatch Dev's themselves should put a beginners guide to positioning on each role and why we play around those positions. I enjoy watching OWL and top OW players and like to theorycraft and adopt high level play positions myself when playing Tank. But I ALWAYS get those people in my team who ridicule me for my shield placement/rotations on Eichenwalde/Volskaya defense on Orisa, while they stand in front of the choke and get blasted instantly and die. I have also had long ranged DPS players spam "Group up with me!" When they're standing on a capped Lighthouse point on Ilios, while I'm Winston/D.Va pushed forward on the high ground waiting for the next team fight. I want to practise good habits, but I feel forced to comply with the rest of my team and I feel awful when crap hits the fan and I knew exactly why it did. It's not fun at all. How am I supposed to learn from mistakes I already know are mistakes? Don't get me started on giving ticks/contesting the point... A lot of people still don't know you get instant respawn on 2CP :( I get yelled at for that too lol. A lot of people won't follow Tanks on a rotation and go the same old way every time. Or refuse to push through a choke hugging the Tank, they'll linger or stay behind. Too many times I've seen Ana players play far too back against dive DPS and don't rotate hugging tanks, promptly dying and failing our push.
Lower ranks seem to have this out in the open, be in people's face kinda gameplay and don't bother looking externally on why they're dying a lot/not climbing in ranked. They just play the game how they've always played it. There's always the question of "Why?" Why do they need to set up here, why is highground always better, why should we push up and leave the objective and force/win fights away from it. Why are we doing this? We don't get any of this feedback from playing in the actual game. Most of it is willingness to learn or watching higher level gameplay. Perhaps a new game mode with set presets that visually show markers for positioning and an indication of how a team comp would usually play on each map? To give some visual indication of basic map positioning, and showing possible threats while not in that position? But still allowing players to be creative within safe positions, once they learn counters properly.
I'd also love to see a separate SR for group play! It would mean I could queue with my Silver Ranked friends more, or create a throwaway practise team to experiment/practise team play on! I know multiple games that have this implemented already and they have unlimited teams you can make too. Not limiting you to one other team only.
P.S I'm one of those players that likes playing Orisa, because it's literal torture playing Rein in low ranks haha!, and thank you for this talk, I learnt even more stuff! :3
silver tank meta right now seems to be run in and die and hope your team wins without you
lol, deranked to silver dps and it feels the same. If a Winston/Rein pushes in, I just lock a dps that works with them and play, usually we win/do well. Otherwise the team afks in choke and what do you do as a lone dps other than 1v6 and pray nobody on the enemy team deals with you?
@@ratchetst3v38 what dps pair well with ryan/Winston?
@@purplewine7362 Rein - Mei, Reaper, McCree, Sym if you're running a full rush comp. The last 3 run in with behind him and pressure the enemy tanks/shields; Mei can wall off enemies poking your Rein or supporting whoever your Rein is pushing.
Winston - various tbh, but dive dps (Tracer, Genji, Doom, Echo) can chase/pressure with him; ranged dps can poke people for Winston to jump on.
Great cast!
We need a hero that can shoot long range through shields. Y/N?
Not having an offtank main hurt the podcast. People don't like to play main tank that much. I gave up Rein and now just play offtank when I noticed it's just DPS daycare half of the time. They want rein, but never protect rein against a Mei/Reaper. Screw that. The games are messier, but I'm having a lot more of a fun time.
yeah but isn't that kind of an argument for the fact that main tanking needs to be kind of buffed so you have the carry potential even if your team is more reluctant to help
You risk main tanks being raid bosses then. Playing rein with a good Ana/Moira pocket, a lucio, a zary/dva (playing with hog sucks) and a team is great and a lot of fun. The fundamental issue being that ranked is full of randoms playing their own game. It's not a team game and never will be. It's a pickup game, at best.
I used to play online competitive games in a clan. It wasn't overwatch, but the difference between organized play and pubs (think matchmaking) was night and day. Overwatch needs a team ladder for all ranks like what was suggested.
And main tank is team dependent. It always has been. What good is an offensive line if you don't have a running back to run through the hole? Thing is, you can have an all star RB without a OL in OW and that creates the mindset that you don't need your team in ranked.
Main tanks can still climb on ladder too, not just playing Orisa as well. But the OW devs have made it known that they don't believe in the MT and OT concept. While I disagree, ranked isn't organized play and I won't play it as such anymore for randoms.
A rein buff to his charge could be a good idea. We all know how charges generally speaking is bad in a fight. Unless certain circumstances occur: other rein charges you, charge to get back to team, short pin charges, etc..
So essentially since we now use charge much less frequently, we lose out on the potential gain it could provide from securing a kill, especially when against double shield. Of course we still don’t encourage narnia charges.
So how could we encourage reins use of charge would be for it to provide shield e.g 200 shield hp. This will still have the risks of charging badly into a team and all of that, but it encourages smarter more creative pins and engages as rein has that extra buffer; rewarding these good plays.
Bogur may be my favorite player now lmao
Here's a thought- what if we had a global ultimate reset every time an objective was captured? One of the reasons control is so popular is that you see different comps on different stages, but as discussed in this video you get snowballed if you countercomp in other modes. I get that ult economy is a big skill factor, but it's also shit in a ranked setting.
If the rein buffs go through this needs a part 3
The issue that most of these youtubers and streamers miss when complaining about Orisa and the tank role is two fold. #1 Orisa mains exist and they enjoy playing her, for the very reasons you hate playing her. They enjoy enabling their teammates, it's a more passive way to play the game. Some heroes enable their teammates more than others. Roadhog, for example, can solo carry, he can play a bit more independently and get picks. That's why you see A-type personalities play him more often. If you don't like playing that teamwork oriented, passive style of play then you're gonna hate playing heroes like that. It's important to the health of the game to offer a variety of different types of playstyles to cater to many different types of players.
#2 There isn't enough tank (and support) hero variety choice and overlap. Buffs, Nerfs, Reworks, etc, aren't going to solve the problem of not having enough choice in those roles. That's partially why people feel like they are locked into a certain hero like Orisa, like Brigitte, etc. The game becomes much easier to balance when it becomes more complex (contrary to what your gut reaction might be). When you have ability overlap, more counters, more interactions, you have more choice. E.G. If you need a tank hero with an ability that can eat ultimates and damage. Sigma's Kinetic Grasp & D.Va's Defense Matrix can do that. Both are different, but fundamentally the same. So you have a choice, Sigma or D.Va. If you need a tank hero with a shield you have Orisa, Winston, Sigma, and Reinhardt. If you need a tank hero with mobility, you have Winston, Wrecking Ball, D.Va. You get the idea. DPS has way more choice. Way more counter play. My hope is that Blizzard solves this with many more tanks and supports to pick from. No amount of nerfs or buffs is going to solve the lack of choice.
I agree here. When Orisa came out, I liked that slow build play style. But I got more into dive after that.
I don’t want to assume about others here, but from my experience there is a gendered response here. I feel like female players sometimes like that passive team enabling play style. It can be frustrating, but I understand. Sometimes I like playing that style as well.
I think there is some unchecked sexism there. I also think samitos video is kind of mean. I think it’s okay to have Orisa be that play style. Maybe it shouldn’t be the meta though.
I personally think there is a lot of privilege at the top of the Overwatch ladder. They often forget Overwatchis what it is because of “casuals” I kind of hate that term.
@@nicholasemmendorfer8748 what does gender have to do with anything? There's some unchecked sexism in your comment buddy.
@@LonestarBF How? I’m claiming there is unchecked sexism in the Overwatch community. So how would I be the sexist one. My comment came from the fact that I heard female identifying players on a podcast specifically claim that they feel ‘pressured to play characters more active than Mercy’ and they felt it was likely due to the fact that some toxic ideas in the male gaming culture cause men to naturally prefer active heroes over heroes that support in a passive manner.
And there would be plenty of evidence to this clam considering the stats the devs put out suggest that Mercy and Dva have far more females in their cohort than some other characters.
So my question would be what evidence would you have to suggest I’m bringing gender into this, when it very clearly is something that’s already been complained about from the launch of the game.
Hell, even most of the higher echelon shits on characters that rely heavily on team oriented play. Something I don’t think you would see as much if we were more open to a variety of play styles from a variety of different players.
@@nicholasemmendorfer8748 Uh, my evidence is that OP never talked about gender, but you feel the need to make it about gender.
They said multiple times that orisa was fun on her own. Only once sigma came in was her kit too strong once stacked. And on top of her being a must pick she was inherently uninteresting for the vast majority of players past a beginning level.
They also said multiple times that orisa is fun in certain niches/situations and that that’s ok.
Oh and yeah the gender thing being brought up here is hella forced, irrelevant, and a projection of the commenter far more than anything from this purely insightful podcast. Good day.
It`s just interresting to listen to.
Watched live and really enjoyed the chat! While I agree with some of the latter comments that the game is at its healthiest and most fun for everyone (different ranks, roles, etc.) when Rein and Winston are both really good in the meta, I can't help but wonder if balancing OW that way would just double down on the expectations especially in the lower ranks that you need one of those two tanks to win. Even if everyone is on average happier, I know big sections of the playerbase hate playing MT and balancing that way will just create toxicity between tanks that don't want to MT and the rest of the team that wants them to play one. As a Rein/Winston player I'd obviously prefer them being strong in the meta, but I also get that nerfing MTs to the ground and making double off tank comps more viable might help people who just want to off tank queue tank more often which helps get tank players into the queues.
As much as it would hurt queue times (i.e. too much for it to be feasible) and it would further "force" a meta, I'd be curious to see how games would feel like if we had dedicated main/anchor tank and off tank queues and balance so that at least Rein and Winston were equally viable at all times. It wouldn't be practical for anyone but MT players, but I think that would result in more fun games overall for everyone in the ladder.
I agree with Flats point of adding 2 options that allows you too pick from faster queued game or a better quality game but longer wait times. However, I thought of an idea where you have « quick comp », which is meant for the people who want to play competitive but won’t care for every single move they commit (For example the dps bois who want to one trick someone) and only want to see what rank they reach. On the other side, another ranked called « Teamplay comp », this one is for the real guys who enjoy playing as a team and use tactics combined mechanical skills. Also, to avoid randoms wanting to get "good teammates" , the team with said person can vote him out and ban him/her from this game mode. Another antidote is to force at least the players to play in a group of minimum 2 people. This will hopefully organize both type of groups and not mix them together if they don’t have the same goals.
I played overwatch for the first time back in 2017, at this point, scatter arrow was still a thing and defense heroes were a class. I was first attracted by the design, I mained bastion because he was a robot and I liked robot. After a few games, I tried Reinhardt, I loved it. What made me appreciate that game was the fact that the TTK (time to kill) was way under the averge FPS's TTK, it permited me, a new player to the FPS genre, to assimilate the game. Plus, I enjoyed the fact that I could outplay players with better aim than me, with positionning and teamplay. Overwatch really felt like a team oriented FPS. I would push up with rein, swing my hammer, destroy enemy teams, ask for help. Most of the time when I queue'd, I could find an off tank willing to play something that would suits us both, we were trying to play the best comp, even though we were not applying every concepts to perfection, we had team interactions, in solo queue. I am now a 3k rein one trick, but you know what, I never was a one trick, I always played whatever suited my team the most. Then Blizzard nerfed the sheild, so utterly, that orisa became garbage. I litterally felt like playing orisa was throw because she just could not bring the value she had before; shooting behind a sheild that regenerates on cooldown while providing supportive abilities like pull to combo with or fortify to contest space. So I stopped playing orisa. But then, when my team mates played hog, what should I play since orisa was getting walked on by rein and dunked on by dive teams? Rein was way better in most of my orisa maps and he could give the protection to the hog not to get anti'd or hooked, where as winston did not synergize at all with him. I don't know if the sheild nerf impacted this or not, but I started seeing, a SHIT TON more roadhogs. So I played Rein. And now here I am, a Rein 1 trick, stuck into a meta where he can't have impact, I still remember when I would ask my zarya to bubble me and ask lucio to amp it up. Now, even as good as I try, I can't do anything but watch my hog not being in team chat, go on a flank, so I try to create pressure on the frontline to make the enemy team easier to kill for him, and I push, and I realise that I have a single moira on my back because our zen's head has been shot by one of the enemy sniper's, and I realise how powerless I am, facing a hog with nothing more than a widow and an echo, minding their own buisness, shitting on me in comms for not calling the right target while doing anything but focusing my target. I recently made tryouts for a 3.5k team, they liked my Reinhardt play, but I got dropped... because I needed to practice my mechanics with monkey. I did not play winston in almost 10 months, why would I, into a hog and a zarya or a hog/sigma or a Hog/ball. What could I do, even with double snipers, jumping over there would leave me so open, I couldnt do anything but feed. I liked overwatch for the low TTK and the mindgame that was applying to the game at the same time as the FPS took place. I liked having that rein duel with the enemy rein, I liked having to think fast about who to dive and where to jump, when to use my bubble and what were the cooldowns that I would have to deal with. Now nothing that I mentioned is anymore. I don't like having to practice my aim, even though I do. If I wanted to have an insane aim, I would not be a main tank main, I would be a DPS main. What I liked from the game is going away, and with it, my aspirations, I once wanted to be the best QC reinhardt player, even better than XQC. Now I don't even know if I want to play overwatch anymore. Every time I launch the game, I wonder ''What did I want to do, I don't know what to do, I just won't have fun meaningless of what I play''. The game got me down to being a Rein 1 trick and I can't even play Rein anymore. Damn, I lovED overwatch... back in the days...
As a support player ive never been much of a lucio player. Never really liked his kit and if i am being honest at low ranks lucios come in two flavors bad reddit lucio or heals only lucio.
Valid. Is there any part of Lucio's kit you do like in concept? Do you just not jam with the hero's playstyle? Which supports do you prefer and why?
I love his ult. I like the facts his kit is actually musical and i like his design. For me wall riding has never been my jam which is something good lucios need to master so thats been mostly the thing keeping me from playing lucio also big burst healing is my support character playstyle i prefer from what i can tell from other games i play with the same game designs.
When I first Started i was a zen main still am kinda. This is before bap, brig, and Moira. Currently i play bap, brig, and zen when i can. I hate mercy and moira and Don't trust my Ana play.
Will reverting shields nerfs will get rid of double shield?
Give Winston a passive ability
Or give him another ability. He literally doesn't use Alternate fire currently.
Can you talk about problematic hero design in Overwatch? By that I mean like how most people feel like Orisa and Brig and etc feel boring when you are forced to play.
@Abhinav Banerjee because the game is supposed to be fun for the atleast most of its players
@@ysmg1061 Most of the players don't play Orisa?
@@KingOfNebbishes does that mean there supposed to ignore it if it's boring, no they should pay more attention to making the boring parts better.
@@ysmg1061 Since Orisa has a pick rate of, what, 3% below GM, I would suggest the problem instead is that they CHOOSE to play boring tanks. I could suggest they play "fun" tanks instead, but they slavishly play OWL comps in ranked, which is a THEM problem and not an Orisa problem.
@Abhinav Banerjee sorry to break it to you, but simply saying that Orisa is fun to you wouldn't contribute anything to the conversation about Orisa being a tank that is mostly played for her utility, not the fun factor
Overwatch when you're level 4700 you know how it is in the higher level of play because players in the lower ranks don't know the level of the higher ranks of levels. Now GM players play at 4k not knowing the importance of higher level play, also contenders.
Exactly
Huge issue with the game in general is meshing too many different groups of players together without making them learn the game. Overwatch appeals to tons of people: fps backgrounds, moba players, team game players, etc. Too many don't try to understand how Overwatch works and that it's a completely different beast from all of the games they've played: You have the sniper player from CS trying to 1v6 point B on 2 CP (not realizing that trade kills don't matter), or you have the guy from a stealth game who waits for all enemies to be killed before pushing objective (not realizing that you can pressure point or fucking move past a choke without getting kills). It doesn't end well for the people they play with and you have to play in spite of them instead of with them. And now you apply this to 2 sets of 6 people. It doesn't help that you have to go out of your way outside of Overwatch to learn how to play it, which most people even in ranked don't care to do (and you can't expect them to).
What Flats said about masters-GM mixes is similar. It's exhausting swapping from Game A (I have to 1v6 carry or we lose) and Game B (we're playing as a team the game's actually fun) even in low SR, and it just makes climbing awful treating every other game as a GG go next.
Precisely
Plat/Diamond Winston player and I absolutely love playing him versus a bad double shield...but I would absolutely love being able to see higher skilled Winstons played more often and it's sad that the higher I look, I just see Orisa T_T
Make shield and bubble unique to Rein and Winston. Make kinetic grasp and fortify Orisa and Sigma's primary tank ability, and give them some new fun utility moves.
Thanks!
Re: The sixth timestamp, I think Blizzard doesn't do anything to teach players how to play the two roles at all. At least with DPS the entire interface as well as the FPS genre's history can help aid DPS players to show where they are lacking. No such assistance exist for Tanks or Healers, especially with the concepts that are unique to Overwatch. Blizzard should revamp the entire interface to that shows and rewards when supports and tanks play the game properly.
What Freedo says at 58 mins about getting slapped when you make a mistake, it happened to me as I approached diamond on tank. Must happen whenever you have to learn something to go higher
Mercy meta was the best meta in overwatch. This was the only time in overwatch history when we genuinely had a rock, paper, scissors style of play with brawl comp, dive comp and bunker comp. This was actually what first enabled bunker comp but all comps were viable and map specific. The problem with the mercy meta was that it lasted for far too long
in season 34, the best tank comp u can play right now is dva and winston or orisa and winston. since soldier, hanzo and ashe are meta you need to knock people off high ground
as a lucio main in the lower level, I can't pick Lucio and win because most people don't understand what to do when I am using my speed boost, and some are telling me to go to healing boost or change when I am trying to speed boost past a choke point.
omg i love listening to bogur, he's so passionate about this shit, he went from notable contenders player to mad scientist vibes in 3 hours
If Winston had a charge mechanic like sym, where he can charge up to about 20dps more than his base. This would help his time to kill and let him out damage a mercy pocket. I feel like this would put him in a better place but not make him broken. If winston wants to do more damage he has to stay in the fight longer, creates more skill in gaining charge and balancing when to get out.
>outdamage a Mercy pocket
Or... Go for the Mercy?
@@sandraswan9008 it's very inconsistent to kill mercy as winston. You must do enough damage before she runs, then you must follow GA, and she can't get any heals from anyone, also no lucio or brig in the area, because his damage is almost nullified
sigma is a lot of fun tbh....its just orisa sig that made the problem. if sig was interchangeable with rein and winston that would be sick. like a 3rd main tank.
I feel like the real solution to queue problem is releasing like 4 new heroes, 2 tanks and 2 healers. That wold make people want to try different roles. The quantity of dps heroes is the real problem
I'm definitely coming around on the hero ban idea myself. I'm one of those plays once or twice a week and mostly with friends players, and I've been on plenty a low level team that doesn't know how to outplay a bastion. And I know they would have a much better game if they could have just said "no bastion" during the ban. Then you get up a little higher and it's widow that no one knows how to play around, well just push "no widow" button and you're fine. Bastion players can still play soldier, widow players can still play ash. It won't make us "metal level" players better, but it will make the game more fun for everyone but the trolls, and the trolls might find they have just as much fun on another character.
And I super agree with your statement of "make tank more fun". In a good game I LOVE playing tank, getting to play an agro rein or a flanking hog/sigma is the most fun I've had playing overwatch. But when the team falls apart I absolutely HATE playing tank. When your team is feeding their brains out, it doesn't matter if you're getting 3 kills every fight, and that kind of positioning failure is so profoundly obvious on tank. I feel like lower level DPS players would be better at DPS if they spent some time on tank, and if some of them find they love playing an aggressive tank as much as I do it'll ease the load on DPS queue and will help matchmaking.
QUALITY content!
1:12:00 well Paladins does have several smaller Ranks inside of the overall Rank.
Means in paladins we have Bronze,Silver,Gold,Plat with each having 5 sub Ranks (example: Gold 1, Gold 2 etc). In Diamond its Diamond 1,2 and 3, then masters and Gm.
So adding like more Ranks wouldnt be such a bad idea tbh, maybe like every 150SR for example (in Paladins you need 100TP to Rank up, well you also have a chance to skip Ranks if your performance is godlike).
SVB your point at ~33m about tanks getting punished by the meta hits so hard. That is every single tank game I'm in these days. I love Orissa, though.
great video , and I love unranked to GM.s.. but im a Gold so what do i know. If this game was not toxic I would never stop playing it.
Now this, is *epic*
Love your guides, midge! Please do more educational content!
@@andrewkong3154 *pssssst* sombra one coming out tmoz
@@Kajor1 Nizeu! You have a new subscriber in me! Thanks for all your time and work for some really quality content. Everybody check out midge's content! I literally watched all your guides in one sitting because they're so thoughtful.
I just hope that 90 percent of the new heroes in OW2 are tank and support. Bridge the gaps between what each hero can do like you see in DPS. Make the equivalent of a "widow, ashe, mcree" spectrum but for Rein or for Ana.