The most important thing about the goat debate is the criteria you use for your rankings. For example, if you say all that matters is rings, your goat should be Bill Russel, if it’s about having the most accolades, that’s Mike or Wilt.
If it’s most accolades Kareem the goat. 6x MVP, 6x NBA champ, 15x all NBA, 11 all defensive. And the Defensive player of the year award wasn’t introduced until Kareem started to decline, he definitely would’ve won at a 2 DPOY if it was around in his prime. But the GOAT is interchangeable for me at least.
To this I don’t understand why you have to pick what matters to you. We should factor EVERYTHING the player has done with Context. If we pick and chose arguments nothing will be agreed upon, and every take will be soooo opinionated
I think it’s all about prefence tbh. Lebron has accomplished enough to be called the goat but if you think it’s still MJ then you will never think it’s Lebron
No, he hasn't. For you to think that he's the GOAT, you're basically asserting that he's better than MJ. He has way too many shortcomings in his career to be compared to MJ. His career archetype is all about stacking the deck and yet still having a losing record in the biggest stage.
@@pitrson666 in what way? Did you know in ‘89 they let Jordan run the point for 24 games, averaging 30.3 points, 10.7 assist’s, 9.2 rebounds, and 2.4 steals, with 12 triple double’s in that span. That’s not what the Bull’s needed him to do, but he could still do that at any time in his career
Lebron’s Longevity is great but I think what Jordan did in a shorter amount of time is even greater because Lebron is still chasing what Jordan did in 15 years going into his 20 year because having longevity without winning really doesn’t mean anything so actually it can start working against you let’s say the Lakers miss the playoffs the next 2-3 years or get knocked out in the first round that would be bad for Lebron‘s legacy
That's one of the problem. You're claiming that his chasing Mj. Bron just wanted to play w/ his son or sons. Everything that Lebron does, fans of Mj like you always find a way to connect it to Mj.
I feel what Lebron did was greater…you can divide his career 4 times and all four parts will be top 20 players of all time. He also faced harder competition than Jordan.
How can we bash mj for playing against “plumbers” but not acknowledge lebron only plays this long because of modern medicine and other health improvements in the last 20-30 years? It’s impossible to compare eras
Also notice how many great players from the 00's-10's era are lasting so long? CP3, KD, Curry are all in their 30's and are still balling out. Obviously, none of them are really challenging Bron on Longevity+Excellence (yet), but had they not benefitted from technology they would've been long gone. It wasn't normal for a player to come back from an ACL at the top of their game like KD did, nor is it normal for Curry with glass ankles to be still running around the court after dozens of injuries. Everybody is playing better and longer over time because of technology.
By that logic why aren't players like Wade or Melo doing the same? Not even considering accolades but by your logic players nowadays on average should be about to play at/ close to their peak level for 2 decades. So name players from lebron's era doing the same. I'll wait
That's the annoying part about this debate, is that either side is trying to make arguments that one of Bron or MJ had to have something that discredits their career. To me they are more like MJ is 1A and Bron is 1B, because if you want to make the arguement that Bron's longevity is due to morden medicine, you would also have to put MJ on the 2003 Cavs roster and see how that pans out
@@chillbutton2986 That’s why he said it goes both ways, you can’t make the Plummer argument without understanding that we have better healthcare today. That’s why it’s unfair to compare both era, as they have different benefits or disadvantages that both players could’ve failed or capitalized on. Its speculations, that’s why it’s just a huge debate.
That’s why I hate when people regard the old era players as ‘plumbers’. That doesn’t apply to MJ though. I still don’t get how tf people say the 90’s were a weak era. 90’s got some of the most skilled players ever. Casual ass fans.
I don't bother with goat debates. I just look at the best players from each era. 2020s - Giannis 2010s - LeBron 2000s - Kobe, Duncan 1990s - Jordan, Hakeem 1980s - Bird, Magic 60s & 70s - Wilt, Russell, Kareem
@@Emmanny Shaq's peak is one of the highest ever, but so short. The conversation around shaq is mostly in the 3 year span with the Lakers. So I can't put him If I'm looking at thw absolute best in a decade. I put Giannis in 2020, because he's still improving, and is dominant on both ends, ans is entering his prime. We could be witnessing a sustained level of dominance, that could span this decade (instead of 3 or 5 years).
If you look at the best players from their era then where the h3ll is Steph Curry in the 2010s? You added Hakeem with his 2 little rings just to put him in with MJ era, something tells me you're a LJ fanboy!! 🤷🏿♂💯
Good point but why many people don't seem to remember that MJ came out of retirement to the Washington Wizards is because of a business move...do you think MJ only played for them because he loved the game and to give up his minority share in the team...NO he came to make a power move to show the league that he can fill seats
@@nephhhhhh Are you joking? You just got presented with factual evidence that changes the outcome of the debate, but your ego is too fragile to even consider the truth. The real issue here, is that you're afraid of being wrong, and your willing to disregard any evidence that could sway the argument in oppose to your favour.
Bsolz is actually the one person that helped me learn more about Jordan and his career. It was a breath of fresh air from the osns, flights, and cash videos who yell and don't have that much basketball knowledge. So I actually thank bsolz for keeping me in the loop. There's not that many people his age that know that much about Jordans career.
Sometimes when you watch videos you have to separate those who love the art and want to know the history of the game or those who just jump on a bandwagon and join the fanboy train.
you basically graduated from creators that don't know anything about basketball to creators that know a little more about basketball, shown by bsolz thinking lebron travelled
The next step after creators like Bsolz are creators like Thinking Basketball with his "greatest peaks" series. And after that it's gathering all the advanced metrics yourself, watching a lot of tape and putting context to all that.
It's all about what you value more for the goat debate. I personally believe that MJ is the goat because he has the perfect mix of everything. Winning, skill, unmatched competitiveness, clutch, athleticism, statistical peak, and influence on the game.
I personally feel like the longevity argument would only work if MJ hadn’t accomplished so much more in less time. In my opinion, if you said LeBron is the goat because he averaged stats for a longer time, you’re basically saying stats are more important than accomplishments (which is fine, but at that point you’re basically changing how players have been ranked for pretty much the entirety of the NBA). Accomplishments have always been more valued than just stats. I feel like Mike has the best collection of both. Also, I feel like the Jay comparison isn’t the best because even there, you could use accomplishments (#1 albums, Grammys won, etc).
Stats is an accomplishment to get. Lebron being the only one to have 37k-10k-10k is an accomplishment. When is longevity gonna factor into the debate when more players plays greater for long? Lebron is the only one who shown actual longevity. Which is being used against him as stats padding
Theres so many nuances to this take but honestly the biggest counter to what your saying is, the talent, while MJ accomplished more the talent in the NBA at the time and the way it was played was completely different, Lebron has held greatness in arguably one of the most talented and stacked times in the NBA ever while the way the game is played has also changed with the importance of perimeter offense and defence both.
@@negusknight7918 I don’t think it’s stat padding. I think it is an accomplishment, but personally I don’t think longevity stats matter as much as actual accolades. I think of it this way: if most people see Michael as the Goat, it’s usually because of his accolades right? Bron doesn’t have the accolades of MJ, so more likely than not, him getting more longevity stats isn’t going to make someone anoint him as the Goat (because stats were never the most important thing to them anyway). I think accolades, peak averages, advanced stats, and longevity stats all come into play and I think MJ has a greater collection of those things than Bron does.
Don't forget that MJ has better career stats even including his wizards seasons, which also weigh more heavily on his overall since he played less seasons. Lebron hasn't even had a bad season yet.
*MICHAEL JORDAN vs LEBRON JAMES* This is a silly debate. Clearly Michael is better. It's not even a close one. But let's go to facts. Updated after Lebrons 18th season. Michael Jordan has • 2 more rings • 2 more finals MVPs • 1 more DPOY • 1 more seasons MVP • 9 more scoring titles • 3 more steals leader • 3 more all defensive team selection • Beat 20 50+ win teams in the playoffs (Lebron only defeated 10) • Jordan never average less than 40% Field Goal in the Finals Lebron did it twice • 6/6 (never allowed a game 7) • Lebron had much more help • Jordan never had a teammate averaged more than 22 points in the Finals.. Kyrie averaged over 28 points DWade averaged more than 26 and Anthony Davis averaged 25 points. • MJ never ever had a finals meltdown like Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs • MJ had more points in the playoffs in less games.. All of this accomplished in 13 seasons, Lebron is in his 19th seasons still chasing the "ghost that played in Chicago" • Michael Jordan in the playoffs has put up atleast 40ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in 6 different playoffs series. Along with an average of about 55% shooting, 3spg and 2bpg. (86 vs Bos, 89 vs Cavs, 90 vs Philly, 92 vs Miami, 93 vs Phoenix, 88 vs Cavs) Jordan won every one of those matchups, except for the 1986 matchup vs the Celtics. • Jordan in 88-89 averaged 32ppg, 8rpg, 8apg, 3spg off 54% shooting. Lebron has never even came close to this stat line. • in 87 thru 92, MJ averaged 5 straight season of atleast 51% FG shooting. Lebron has never done this. • the lowest FT% MJ ever shot in a season was 78%. Lebron highest in a season is 78%. • MJ has a higher playoff FG% of 48.7% to Lebron 48.3% • MJ has a higher playoff player efficiency rating of 28.6 to Lebron 27.3. • MJ shoots a higher playoff 3 point percentage of 33.2% to Lebrons 32.9% • MJ also shocked the league by being the first (and only) player to have 100 blocks and 200 steals in the same season, then turned around and did it again the next year.. Seriously this list can keep going. This isn't even a debate. MJ is the GOAT.. Michael in only ELEVEN Complete Season with the Bulls. • 10 STRAIGHT Scoring Title • Won Defensive Player of the Year, • 9 times all defensive team, • 9 time All NBA • 5 league MVPs • 6 finals MVPs LBJ missed the playoffs completely in his first 2 years. Jordan didnt with scrubs on his squad. Jordan played 82 games 9 times in his career once at 40. LBJ only played 82 games once. In 89 Jordan won the Scoring Title, All Star MVP, Slam Dunk Title, Regular Season MVP and Defensive Player of the Year, something LBJ has never done. Jordan also averaged 41 pts a game for an entire Finals shooting 50% and won. Something else LBJ never did.. All 11 season. MJ has done in 11 season, things Lebron hasn't done and won't do in his whole career... Check Mate. Last but not least. It's all about killer instinct or lack of. I am not putting someone who's a known cheater and quitter above someone who imposed his will in 4th quarter to rip out the hearts of his opponents. That's why he's undefeated, never seeing a 7th game.
Everything looked factual until the end. Where killer mentality was brought in. That notation is all subjective and is just to discredit lebrons. Plus how he cheat in team game?
This Jimmy High Roller video is literally just talking about the positives of longevity without talking about any of the negatives. If you played longer why didn't you accomplish as much? If you played longer why didn't you win as much? Horrible arguments
For his position, he was way above the rest, but the league as whole MJs competition was tough. Jordan was in the era of one of the greatest mvp races of all time, when there were around 10 MVP candidates at the time. Stockton was in 10th, avging 14 pts, 14 assists, which you don't see nowadays for a point guard. Hakeem avg 23pts, 12 rebounds, a mean double double and defensive monster. Dominique Wilkins was avging 30pts, 6rebounds. He's known for dunking but he was more than that as he avg 30 not just from dunks. Malone avged 27 pts, 12 rebounds. Drexler avg 27 pts, 6 rebounds. Charles Barkley avg 28pts,11 rebounds. Magic Johnson was still in MVP convos, avg 19pts, 6 rebounds, 11 assists. Even Larry bird had his greatest offensive season avg 29.9 pts, 8 rebounds. The league was stacked with talent, with stat lines comparable to stars today. All of those great players, but Jordan rose to the occasion and was able to edge out the other great competitors, by avging 35pts, 6 rebounds, and 6 assists, and won the MVP race with all of those other players I mentioned. Jordan had competition, and I didn't even mention people like Reggie Miller, Ewing, David Robinson, Gary Payton & Shawn Kemp, Lafayette, and so on. People only say the era was weak when it wasn't to discredit Jordan. The competition was actually strong and if Jordan wasn't there anyone could have won that MVP race and enhanced their careers. The only reason you don't see shooting guards who can rival Jordan is because the league was ran by big men. Thats why you see a lot of players above have 25pt double doubles. The guards back then were great professionals, but Jordan was an anomaly, and back then we didn't see guards dominate the way he did, especially in a league ran by big men. And today we see a lot of big men dominating and taking advantage of the small ball guard oriented league. Embiid, Giannis, and Jokic are all big men. Any of those big men above could be in the MVP race in today's league, but no one talks about the great players of the past because the footage looks old, and all the TV analysts are the worst basketball historians to grave the screen but fans just regurgitate all the hate and bs like they do. So yea, this is my take on the whole weak competition thing.
I don’t think ppl say the era was weak Bcs of the individual stars but more so the teams surrounding them. I think it’s pretty fair to say the average nba player now was better than the average nba player in the 80s and 90s. Which is fine that’s just the natural progression of things with advancements in nuance and sports medicine. That and the bulls in the 90s were a lot like the warriors in the late 2010s, obviously the best team and a shoe in to win albeit a major fumble.
All those stats you mentioned I could put them Side by side next to players today. The league will always have its stars, it’s the role players who greatly improved
The 98 Bulls were far from the best in the league. Pippen missed most of the season and Rodman wasn’t that good. They nearly lost to the Pacers. They were also not the best in 93 because they had a 57 win record to the Knicks 60 and the Suns 62, and Charles won MVP that year and Jordan doesn disagree with that.
People want to talk weak competition when in 10 years they're gonna be saying "Yeah but LeBron played with SoundCloud rappers" lol it's all the same shit different decade
I’ve avoided this video for so long because I thought I’d hear some ignorance and get mad, but Jimmy made great points, and y’all’s rebuttals also had merit
I like how MJs first ring came off sweeping the pistons who were the reigning champs and beating Magic and the Lakers in the finals 4-1 when magic was the mvp in 1990 the year prior… but people like to use the “the Lakers and pistons were old argument”…. Meanwhile…. Lebron first ring in 2012 came when Kobe was getting bounced in the 2nd round (never met him in the finals by the way) Spurs we’re retooling their roster around aging core and were 5 years removed from last finals run…. And the big 3 Celtics were on their last legs on the cusp of packaging KG and Paul pierce to the nets…..
Jordan also claimed if he wanted to play for stats, he would never have quit until he got to 30,000 points and passed Wilt's points. Then he came back and got 30,000 points in his first Wizards year, and passed Wilt half-way through his second year. Then he quit, 'coincidentally' still having 0.05 ppg more than Wilt for top scoring average. Don't pay attention to what he says, but what he did.
Jordan is the goat in my humble opinion because he acquired his stats at a time when the NBA rules were not as relaxed as they are today which Lebron is part of. Even though both player stats are close in many areas, I think this is what sets them apart. It's not just the stats but the rules / difficulty in obtaining those stats in comparison with another player in any sport, video game or life in general. But who's to say that either player wouldn't have had similar stats in the other player's error.
13:42 The assist stat requires another teammate, aka an entirely different person to determine if you get credit for this INDIVIDUAL STAT.... it doesnt matter how great a passer you are if they dont make a shot, you dont get credit and 70% of lebrons rebounds are uncontested westbrook type rebounds.
First of all the assist. A great passer generally gets these numbers by passing to players with the best look and yes I do agree it relies on that person making the shot, but the point is you placed that person in the best position in order to make that shot, thus you deserving credit for being a key factor towards the points generated. 2nd the rebounds point, yes alot is probably those easy rebounds, but dont you think players like kareem should be getting the most of those rebound stats just because of their size alone? The only reason lebron is above all of them is because he did everything the others can do just as good if not better at a way way way longer time...
LeBron is also more turnover prone than Jordan. Plus they relaxed the criteria for an assist in the summer of 2005, before LeBron's 2nd season. Which means he's had inflated assist numbers his entire career.
They also changed defensive rules to eliminate hand checking in LeBrons second year so the league average of players averaging over 20 pts increased drastically during LeBron entire career. Considering that and that Jordan wizards years dropped his averages
I was born in 1990, and have watched basketball since I was 4, 28 years of watching basketball. And in 28 years, not a single player has ever made me more excited to watch basketball than Jordan. Rings, stats, accolades and everything aside, Jordan made basketball important to the world. He made the game so much fun to watch, even middle age housewives were wearing bulls and Jordan gear and going to games.
Not even curry, I feel like they are very close in that regard. Like the ones to make me so excited to watch basketball have been mj, curry and lebron. Not talking about who’s the goat btw
I think longevity can go against Lebron at some point. Mj really only had 11 full healthy seasons and look what he accomplished. Lebron in at least 6 more seasons can't get as many rings, MVPs, and FMVPs as him. I think despite the leading scorer thing that's an argument Mj fans will always have as long as he has so many more accolades than him. Kareem had more longevity than Mj so are we just changing it for Lebron?
But one could also argue that the gap between the best player is a lot closer in this era. Jordan never had the equivalent to The Lebron and KD competition for best player. At least not during jordan championship run.
@@1990POE Hakeem, shaq and he beat magic in the finals. And before you try to downplay Hakeem he was drafted before Mj and nobody gives Houston shii for it.
@@comebackkid5976 you’re missing my point bro. I’m saying there was such a huge gap between MJ and the 2nd best player back then. There was never a debate on who the best player was during his championship run only who was the 2nd and 3rd. While Lebron and Kobe and Lebron and KD and Lebron and curry were actual debates on who was the best player in the game. That’s not knocking jordan. I’m just stating a fact
@@comebackkid5976 regardless of the superstars Jordan played, the team he had was ridiculous. After he retired, the Bulls still were a strong playoff team. Lebron didn’t have a top team around him until he got to the heat where he choked his first year but after that he took advantage and if it wasn’t for Chris Bosh and Dwade declining in ability then he probably wouldn’t have went back to CLE until his final years and a pro. This is the reason Scottie came out and said what he said, he obviously feels like MJ was hyped a lil too much.
I like how he says the bulls were ready to build around mike…. From being drafted till the 93 Only major additions/moves Chicago made 1) drafting Scottie and Horace grant in 1987 who weren’t ready to make major contributions for another 2 years…. 2) trading for role player John paxson in 1985 3) trading Charles Oakley for bill Cartwright….. With sharpshooters like Craig Hodges to come in and shoot 1 three pointer per game and average 4-6 ppg…. Yeah his team was stacked….. if lebron had the exact same team as lebron in 1991 and somehow lost in the finals or before the finals people would complain he didn’t have enough help…..
No your getting this wrong the bulls were a good defensive team and jordan fitted their playstyle they needed a scorer The bulls were a good team because they fitted his playstyle Lebron needs good players because he is a playmaker
Wasn’t Scottie the oh I don’t know the FIFTH pick in the draft? Also drafting a HoF is now being downplayed is crazy, especially when Lebrons highest pick in his first stint was 10th and they used it to pick a SMALL FORWARD. You know the position LeBron played?
Lebron would have to go against a big 5 with a 3 7 foot 5 Point Gaurds with Steph Curry 3 point Shooting,Michael Jordan Mid Rande shooting,Shaq dominance,John Stockton perimeter defense and Hakeem Interior defense
I like how people forget when LeBron returned to Cleveland, he took a 2-week vacation to Miami. After looking out of shape, he came back a changed man. He needed that Miami Biogenesis treatment.
Think of what Jordan could have done if he entered the league at LeBron's age and didn't retire twice. I don't think we'd be having this debate. LeBron being this good for this long is extremely impressive but I don't think career length should have as much importance in this debate. Jordan's 40 year old season was good (not Jordan good) after being out of the league for a like 4 years. Eye test, but while LeBron has always looked like a man among boys on the court, Jordan was transcendent. A lot of people who didn't get to watch him play are missing a lot of context and perspective.
Okay, so about the advanced stats. I mean look, they're great, but they are a lot muddier than most people assume. So if we're doing overall careers then Jordan's wizards stats negatively impact him. On top of this teammates are a thing that heavily impact these stats as well. Look ay the on/off numbers with Lebron with and without D-Wade. All of his numbers increase massively. For Jordan I haven't looked at the data in a while, but I'm pretty sure Rodman led the bulls in plus minus because he was playing a lot of his minutes either alongside Pippen and Jordan or just feasting on bench units which massively inflated his stats. These numbers are much better than the typical slashline where you can have Drummond making all-star teams by catching his own misses (Damn, he really had Detroit fooled for a while lmao), but they still need some context.
Also you shouldn't look at MVPs, but instead MVP shares which are calculated by the total number of votes that a player recieves. So what I mean by this is that that Steve Nash has 2 MVPs, but 2.429 MVP shares while Kobe has only one MVP but 4.202 MVP shares which still isn't perfect but far more indicative of a player's actual ability than the straight up MVP.
my main problem with the longevity argument is the fact that when you rank lebron higher cause of his longevity, you often ignore the reasons why he has managed to last this long at best is because of the technology players have access to that helps keep them in shape and knowledge of weight training which was uncommon in the 80s and 90s, and at worst, you have the LeBron PED argument, which while not set in stone, has enough there to make you go "hmmmmmm"
PED And steroid were still used in the 80s-90s who is to say players back then used it. The PED thing only applies to lebron because of his longevity. Modern technology isn’t the only factor that keeps lebrons for playing this long. It’s his dedication to the game and ability to say focus and workout, eat healthy and not have any bad repercussions on his ability to play the game.
@@negusknight7918 thought I didn't say it when I should've I should clarify that I wasn't implying peds were the only reason he has played for so long. I do acknowledge that lebron is still an unbelievable physical specimen and he does work hard to maintain his body, those things don't mean that something like that has to be factored in when we compare him to Michael Jordan because as far as we know, there is no reason to suspect Jordan was using any peds.
@@negusknight7918 and while the improvement of technology and weight training in modern day basketball doesn't necessarily translate to his longevity, it's a factor
@@jstopgamingl1671 and why not? In a sport like basketball your career should last like 10years of sustain elite level of play, at best. Even wilt had 7-8 years of elite play and he’s a better athlete then both before steroids were abused. I’m pretty sure Bron uses ped but why doesn’t Jordan gain any suspicion?(who’s trainer said he gained 10lbs of muscle in the off-season which is impossible for an athlete who has already seen a weight room, while doing extreme cardiovascular exercises) steroids were in EVERY sport, it’s really childish to think Jordan just so happened to never have any real muscle injuries (or any of the nba stars) while playing a physically demanding game because they’re just that good.
I always thought the GOAT debate was pointless because of how rules define league averages. Also, most people will hold Jordan as definitive GOAT due to right guy, right time mentality, Almost like Magic with PGs.
The thing is that even if individual acomplishments are not perfect because they rely on narratives, and Championships are team depend on your team, Jordan got more of everything in mostly full 11 seasons than Lebron in almost 18. 7 years are a good handicap, if people didnt give Lebron as many MVPs as Jordan is because he wasnt as dominant compared to other players.
Even if you cut it off at 10 years Bron got more mvps then Jordan. Anybody can play the game. The problem is basketball is the only sport where longevity shouldn’t count. Or should be overanalyzed where it’s negative.
Thats not really fair though because it's not like if Jordan played more seasons he could have done more. Like Bron is playing longer because Bron is great longer than Jordan was. I still see your point though
Bron would have to be the Point Guard and settle a bit more to focus more on Playmaking. Jordan would be more off ball but also would have to sacrifice quite a bit as he was a all time Playmaker in terms of how much he created in offense due to his overwhelming rim pressure and underrated passing capabilities (a very good and willing reactive passer). Also Jordan would have to work on his three point shot if they play in this era or otherwise they wouldn't mesh. Even then it's not guaranteed that it works. The thing is that LeBron is a floor raiser who works best when he makes all decisions and dominates the ball while he is surrounded by Shooters. Jordan on the other hand is a ceiling raiser who works best when he has a functioning team around him that can do something will the ball and not just stand there waiting for a ball. The playstyle of the two in combination with their egos doesn't really work.
“Is a player’s performance regardless of its excellence all in vain if his team loses”…. To the average person who appreciates greatness, hell no. But to most people yes cause 6-0 and 4-6. One of the biggest arguments for Lebron is the fact that he has had to deal with much more bs than Jordan while still being great. He is a rose through the concrete. Jordan is a rose in a beautiful garden.
@Creative Tagged in case you didn’t read my comment, I am specifically talking about on the court. And you DONT wanna compare off the court shenanigans with Lebron and Jordan. It’s not close. Plus, one of Bron’s teammates was with his mom in Cleveland. Not to mention him being outspoken in terms of his political and social stances
@Creative Tagged lebron grew up without this dad his mother had him when she was 16 she struggled to provide for him he lived in poverty. And in the NBA Jordan had the greatest coach of all time (at the time) and a great roster in let’s be honest not the greatest era. Compare it to lebron with trash rosters in an era with super teams and dynasties and a league dominated by talent top to bottom
@@sethrobinson9291 You sound crazy. You want tell me tht losing a love one to murder is nothing compared to the bs Lebron inflicts on himself. Please make me understand, because if you’re saying MJ father being murdered doesn’t compare to the simple bs Lebron inflicts on himself, you’re a foolish human being and put value in nonsense.
@@yahiakamel2747 What great couch did MJ have. Tell me what makes Phil great before he started coaching for the Bulls. Name one thing Phil did tht made him the greatest coach of all time before he started coaching for the Bulls. You can’t because the Bulls was his first head couching job. Man y’all millennials are delusional.
@@mayjaaudio6539 thats like saying what made popovich great before he was with the spurs. Are you stupid? What did the bulls accomplish before Phil Jackson? Literally nothing. Couldn't beat the pistons and were not a championship contender. He absolutely is a great coach and it doesn't matter if the bulls was his 1st or 12 th head coaching job he's still a great coach. Clown
He didn't call him a washed Kareem... He said Lebron has already "washed" Kareem in regards to longevity. Meaning he been surpassed Kareem in that area. You gotta learn the lingo
I wonder how damaging it would be to his career if we found out he was using PEDs heavy. Would it have a similar affect to Lance Armstrong or would people excuse it? Barry Bonds, Arnold, Ole dude from UFC Roy Jones have lost almost all their prestige from it I wonder if LeBron would as well
It would. Only dude that shouldn't be given a lot of flak for using PEDs is Barry Bonds. Why? Basically every MLB player ever used PEDs, Bonds just happened to be a special target for the MLB to expose.
@@bboywolf let's not forget when he 1st came back to the cavs on the "KETO" diet dude was superskinny couldn't even dunk, goes to Miami and comeback jacked like the LeBron were use to
The best debate on this I've heard is from Bomani Jones. You can look at all the stats and be like maybe LeBron, but then you go back and look at a MJ game and be reminded, "Oh yeah, I'm trippin!". MJ is goat.
What I think its asking is at what point does Lebrons overwhelming accumulation of statistics that correlate to longevity become too far superior in comparison to MJs that it cannot be disputed anymore, for example.. if Lebron just goes and retires with like 50k pts 15k ast and 15k (FOR EXAMPLE OBVIOUSLY THERE WOULD BE MORE STUFF LIKE ACCOLADES AND SUCH) will it just make him the goat by default? is there ever a point where the gap just becomes too big?
My only thing with longevity when talking about a player from a past era is people ignore the crazy strides sports medicine has made over the years. I think Jordan could've player longer with the healthcare and diets these players are on today
But you can apply that logic to other areas of the game too. Jordan’s era was more Physical than todays era but Lebron’s era has the better athletes than Jordan’s era
I see your point but I think stuff like this is why there will never be an actual answer to the goat debate. There are all these different rabbit holes that we can go down to try and compare eras.
Longevity is not just a factor of modern technology, yes modern technology helps you play longer but you need dedication and the ability to stay focus on your routine of working out, eating healthy. Mj is great but most people agree his diet and choice of action affected his ability to play longer.
8:24 Lavine and Tatum are both athletic LONG slashers with a decent sized bag and a beautiful jumper, and they’re both on teams that ACTUALLY play as a team where they have a really good second option (first option on some nights) with Lavine/Derozan and Tatum/Brown.
Also for the advanced stats nerds (like myself), Here are Jordan's advance stats when he played for the Bulls for his CAREER: PER: 29.1 (#1) WS/48: 0.274 (#1) OBPM: 7.9 (#1) DBPM: 2.3 (#14) BPM: 10.2 (#1) So yeah.. GOATed there.
Man who made that BS video, the GOAT conversation, goes off facts Mike's peak was higher than Lebron's, the man got two three peats, 6-0 in finals, no game 7's. We call Tom Brady the GOAT because of rings, not stats. In that case Payton Manning ,Dan Marino, Drew Brees or etc, would be the GOAT. You play to win the championships simple as that ,can't change the narrative to try to help your favorite player.
theres never one single narrative tho so what youre saying is kinda dumb. its all about what you value as a fan. its completely opinionated. its fans like you that think theyre above other fans for having different values on the game of basketball
Tom Brady also has insane career stats and has played at a top level well into his 40s there is definetly a difference also Era is different better current nba players means different teams will win rings
The biggest issue with the longevity argument now is that LeBron has been playing 50-60 games per season now for the last 4 years. Still impressive, but Kareem and MJ played 74+ games at the age 40 in their last seasons
Okay but LeBron has been pushing that put him in the top 10 of the NBA every season, there's never been a season where LeBron has never at least been in the discussion of top 10 of the NBA, MJ and Kareem weren't an impact at all for their teams, they were roleplayers
This debate should end for ever. There will never be a complete argument about the goat because how can considerate awards when some players played when theese awards didn’t even existed
I think there are 15 or so players that all have a case for the goat debate. When you are comparing athletes at the highest level of their eras, it is impossible to determine which is “better” with a non-biased and generally accepted criteria.
That's why we should have GOATs for different eras, MJ was the GOAT of the 1980s-2000s. Kobe the GOAT of 2000s-2010s & as a ' hater ' of LeChump he is the GOAT of the 2010s - 2020s, but it could also be Curry as well since he had large impact in the league.
@@ferchango6359 between the 1980’s-1990’s the goat is either bird or magic of that era either the lakers or Celtics were in the finals Every year of the 80’s with lakers getting 5 rings and Celtics getting 3 in that 10 year span
This is something I’ve always said to greatness… the impact on not only the games and championships BUT the impact on future generations of the league. Just look at everyone who looked up to Mike growing up, wanted to be like Mike and was inspired to make the league. These monsters dominated the league… Kobe, Ai, Dwade ,Tmac and even Lebron himself. Some people has Kobe as their goat who got his game directly from Mj…. Case closed💯💯💯💯💯
@@ferchango6359 who the hell to day gonna say mj when they choot they say kobe or curry. but I can't denie the impact they had on the game in their time. but lebron is also the face of the nba
Longevity doesn’t equal Greatest. What separates the greats from the greatest isn’t stats longevity MVPs etc it’s how you played the game night in night out how you played when pressure was on the will to win at all costs. That’s the difference between Brady and Rodgers/Manning that’s the difference between MJ and Lebron, you never questioned Mj or Brady will to compete especially when the game was tight or when the game wasn’t going their way they kept playing no matter what you can’t say the same about Lebron. To many times in his career he’s quit in games felt the pressure of the moments and didn’t perform up to his own standards that’s why he can’t be the GOAT.
The one category the Leflop James fans like to note is longevity but they don’t mention load management or the softness of the NBA game today. And when the truth comes out about what he’s put into his body comes out, “keep that same energy.”
The stat I think best illustrates how great a player is is MVP award shares. LeBron has the most all time, but MJ has the most per season. So if sustained greatness is your thing, then you'd probably say LeBron is the GOAT. But if sheer dominance over an certain era is more your speed, then it's MJ all day. I used to think LeBron would overtake MJ eventually, but I think the conversation is over at this point.
That’s where your wrong. To think Mj is the goat is fine but to think that lebron will never overtake him and or isn’t close at the moment is just incorrect
@@yahiakamel2747 I'm sorry but 28 year old LeBron isn't walking through that door any time soon. It's time to give up on LeBron's GOAT case. He made a hell of a run at it. But there's nothing LeBron can do between now and the end of his career that is going to change anyone's mind about who the GOAT is. People have seen enough. Either he's your GOAT or he isn't at this point.
@@cryptaku3404 I tend to agree but you can’t say there’s nothing he can do. Hypothetically he wins 2 more championships he’s the undisputed goat essentially. So it’s not impossible
Lebrons low lights in his career 1) not making finals in 2009 over Dwight Howard’s Orlando magic…. Kobe vs lebron had been hyped up and with the Celtics missing KG this was prime opportunity to go to the finals…. 2) loss to Dallas in 2011 probably the biggest stain but I’m doing this chronologically… 3rd leading scorer on his own team… 4th quarter meltdowns we get the picture 3) first season on the Lakers missed playoffs this year lebron missed 27 games due to a groin injury however came back put up big numbers after saying he “activated playoff mode” and proceeded to lose a bunch of games to finish the year 37-45 as the 10th seed… they were only about 3-4 games outside the playoff picture when he returned from injury and had about 20 games left to play 4) this year with the Lakers with a team featuring himself, AD and russel Westbrook his team is currently 17 games under 500 and have been eliminated from playoff contention even with the addition of a play in tournament….
1. Yea it’s lebron fault for missing the finals in 2009 despite him averaging 38 Points 8 rebounds and 8 assists and hitting a buzzer beater in game 2. Still tho he he didn’t make the finals right? 2. Fair I’ll give you that lebron was dogshit in the 2011 finals 3. 2019 lebron before his injury had the lakers without any other stars on a 53 win pace. When he came back he was clearly still injured so obviously he didn’t play at his best still averaged 27 tho 4. This year lebron was exceptional averaging 30/8/6 on 53/36/76 splits but the rest of the team struggled. It’s not really his fault in that way but it’s his fault that he agreed on the Westbrook trade
You've left off a few... 2007 vs Spurs - 22ppg @35% with 6 TOV per game 2008 vs Boston - 11% FG game and 35% series, choking a 2-1 lead 2010 vs Boston - he had 3 BAD games that cost the series overall 2014 vs Spurs - biggest loss margins in history, scored 70% of his points during blowout (being down 15 or more) while the defense eased off him 2021 vs Suns - gave up on his team, terrible leader (couldn't win a game unless AD was the best player on his team)
jordan low lights: 1984: he averaged 4 turnovers And 4 personal fouls per game shoot 12.5% from 3 1990 shots 30% in a game 6 when he had a 3-2 lead and choked the series lead 1995: shot 36% from The field in a elimination game and only had 19 points 1997: he shot 38% in The confernce finals yet The bulls still win sure these arent many but still jordan had his lowlights and I could probably find many more If I digged even more into jordans career
My main problem with his vid is that he keeps harping on (and foreshadowing whenever he can) about longevity. I have no problem if that's what pushes him over MJ for some, but he doesn't ever see it from the other side. If longevity is basically the biggest factor (and your going to ignore championships conveniently), then you also have to acknowledge the opposite transience of MJ too, who accomplished so much in such a little amount of time. Saying that one is better than the other is completely subjective regardless of all the numbers you want to pull out to suit your narrative. And to me LeBron will only equal MJ if he has at least the same amount of rings The whole "flame shining brighter or longer" argument doesn't really push any of them over each other subjectively, and tbh can feel a bit like you're reaching So to me, the only fair and unbiased way remains the simplest; How many rings you got ? Not because I want to ignore other aspects that make a player unique, but because it's the only way to put everyone on an even playing field without picking and choosing the nuances that are only considered better or worse based on intangible opinions
You said it yourself even if lebron were able to win 3 more rings mj would still be ahead of him. At this point in the goat debate it’s the criteria that you put forth to fill your point of the debate nowadays.
Except rarely had we ever evaluated talent on a peak in multiple sports. It seems basketball is the only community that doesn’t get that. Everyone understands that peaks is so finicky because whose to say you put x in that situation he can’t replicate it. But sustain dominance is something where there’s way too many factors to just say replace x with y player. Because if “y” player was so good why couldn’t he do it in his era. There’s no running back whose peak challenges Erick Dickerson, yet rarely do people have him as the best running back some don’t even have him in their top 5. Ronaldo Phenomeno had an insane peak from the late 90s to early 00s, and people view Messi and CR7 better unanimously. Brady’s own peak isn’t really all time, as Peyton, Favre, and Rodgers have arguably a better peak, but his longevity outruns theirs. But basketball is the only sport where not only does peak overtake longevity, the wrong peak is chosen. As an individual what makes Jordan’s peak better then Wilt even in the slightest? This is a guy in 7 years had a scoring avg was better then Jordan’s best season, and yea his playoff saw a decline, but if you are going from 40 points to 33 the decline argument is pointless. Heck even Jordan’s “peak” runs from 87-93 so it’s not like his team accomplishments are even that insane. (Which is another problem, you want Jordan’s scoring peak, but at the same time seem to forget that you are removing some of his rings because 96-98 was clearly not peak Jordan). And no how many rings you got isn’t the answer otherwise Jordan would be under Russell and Kareem without any arguments.
@@ethanjones2008 imagine saying the reason why bill can’t be the greatest of all time is because of time itself. It’s in the acronym itself. And if bill is punished because of time why do people think jordan can’t or even LeBron?
No Jordans 5 best years vs lebrons 5 best Jordan averges 10 more winshares meaning he contributes to 10 more wins during that time. Which is insane. Wilt and Kareem both contributed slightly more wins the Jordan
The GOAT debate is so subjective though. It's just not about the rings and the stats. It's the combination of those and the myth that the player has become. That's why MJ is the GOAT for most people, especially the casuals. I became interested in basketball during the Jordan era and he is like this larger-than-life player in the 90s. It's like he can do no wrong on the court. I don't think Lebron has that impact yet.
Your thoughts on numbers, stats and advanced numbers are why in the end it all comes down to the eye test and any epic failures. Mike for me passes the eye test because the feats he pulled off against players much bigger and very physical is epic. Lebron has the one major failure with the Mavs series. And then this year not making his team better is now a second failure to a lessor degree.
@@justincrawley4256 True, But Lebrons failures have happened during the peak of his playing. The Mavs happened when he clearly had the best team and he was the best player in the league. He also had the Celtics series in the ECF where he quit on the team even though he was on a lesser team you don’t just quit. These are things we didn’t see from Jordan when he was losing to the Celtics and Pistons, if anything he elevated his game in a losing effort.
@@jayday545 what if I were to tell you Micheal had a similarly bad finals series to lebron once and no one ever talks about it cause his team won. Would you believe me
@@justincrawley4256 Go on…. 91) 31, 11, 6….92) 36, 6, 5….93) 41, 6, 8…. 96) 27, 4, 5. Probably the one you speak of but he of course won and leaned on a finally good Pippen….97) 32, 6, 7…98) 33, 2, 4. Lebron MAVs. 17, 6, 7. There is no similarity. The closest similarity would be James’ first finals which was 22, 6 , 7. In which he lost and didn’t play that great.
@@jayday545 i would take 17 6 and 7 on 48 percent shooting over 27 with 39 percent shooting any day. If the main thing you do for your team is score and you can't even do that efficiently that's a huge problem..... But they won so no one cares about that
Jxmy's video is so misleading it just makes the same tired argument he and others have been making for LeBron James for years. LeBron will never pass MJ simply because at this late stage in his career, he isn't even close to doing so. He would have to play in his 50s to pass MJ.
Simplify the view of the GOAT debate to these : - Jordan's GOAT arguments are Nike and David Stern - Jordan is a brand, LeBron is an icon - Jordan's career is a fairytale, LeBron's career is a series of headline news The more you think about it, the more it'll make sense
Ppl forget about Bron going to Miami, the weird "woe is me" narrative on Bron's career needs to stop. Imagine applying the same logic to 80s Jordan, it would boost him out the atmosphere in this debate.
Honestly if Lebron was a bit more liked (cause he’s simply hated for stupid reasons and a controversial decision he made like 12 years ago), I really think there would be around the same amount of people who say Lebron is the goat as Jordan. Probably like 50% 45% 5% (everyone else). This debate is based so much on opinions and biases it’s just subjective at this point
Lebron is one of the most liked athletes of all time. I think where people get this "he's hated more than anyone" thing from the standards he's held to and nothing else. These are the MJ standards. When he didn't beat the godlike Celtics, the media said it was his fault. That Celtics team gave it to Magic and Kareem
Yes the goat debate now is likely opinion based. Even if lebron won 3 more rings mj fans would still have him ahead. Lebron is one of the most hated athletes because of the media. Social was not around when mj played which saved him from the scrutiny. Lebron has to deal with everyone of his actions on and off the court from the good to the bad. The Media could say lebron eating tacos on Tuesday could affect his legacy and people would believe.
Playing for a long time is very respected. You can look at this different ways. LBJ played for 20 years and only won 4 championships. Do you play the game to win games and shampionships or to be able to say, i played 20 years and won 4 championships. Oh by the way, one championship was during covid. A lot of players didn't even play. LBJ is in my top ten of all time. The goat is MJ all day long.
Emmitt Smith won the rushing title due to longevity. But no one in their right mind believes he is the GOAT. It's a very weak argument for the GOAT. Jay-Z hasn't had a good album since the Black Album, that hip hop comparison was crazy stupid. The commentator said if LeBron continues to dominate the league, but he isn't dominating the league. He isn't even the best player, sure he is like top 10 but dominating the league? Absolutely not.
People only say Lebron is the GOAT because they either havent seen MJ play Anyone who has seen MJ in his prime or can even look up videos of MJ in his prime know MJ is the GOAT
@@KingJinzo2125 even in terms of longevity jordan is not that far behind remember he was 35 in the last dance and was carrying the wizards to the playoffs at 40 until he got injured and that’s after 2 years out of the game
Mj was dominant when the league was much more physical and big men were much more sought after at 6'5"-6'6". Also retiring during his prime. At mj's size and the sports technology they had, its amazing how durable he was. LeBron is all time status, but I don't think it's fair to compare him to MJ. EVEN MJ wasn't comfortable to compare era's. Would LeBron be on year 19 if he was playing in the 90's. There's just 2 many factors.
I think if Giannis wins 6 championships Lebron's legacy will be diminished. Alot of people don't respect Lebron. Whether it's the flopping or quitting on his team in the finals or saying he's gonna compete in the dunk contest. Lebron always under delivers.
That’s the problem with the media. Lebron is scrutinized by every action that he does. Players mj get the freedom to do what they want. But media wants lebron to play by an image when he doesn’t media and fan hate on him. Like the narrative that he quit on his team. Yes, he left because the organization was incompetent and he always leave at free agency when his contract is over. He never forces to leave. He isn’t a loyal player like dame and loyalty shouldn’t affect his legacy. If Giannis was able to win 6 rings who is to say he is the goat and better than mj not just lebron.
I don't have MJ as the GOAT. I take a players five best seasons and compare. I have WILT as the GOAT. He's the greatest athlete ever with 4.6 speed 50 plus vertical and the strongest player ever with 500 plus bench 700 plus deadlift and 7'6 reach. With excellent mid range and post moves. With greatest weakness is that he didn't use his strength like lebron. I have Hakeem second he was a better defender than MJ. Offensively he was just as skilled he needed a second star around him. Only defensive center to have a season with over two steals and 4 blocks a game. Plus he consistently was able to guard guards on the perimeter. I have MJ just barely over lebron. He was a better defender on-ball than lebron. Offensively they were equal lebron better playmaker and MJ better scorer. Lebron gap in defensive on ball is too great to beat MJ. Lebron is close to Jordan as a team defender but his unwillingess to guard best player for entire games hurts him here. For me what hurts Lebron is his defense not his offense. He just didn't dominate series on the defensive end as much as MJ.
@@thepuzzycatzz4313 can he not be confident in his ability. A great quote: "I'm cocky in prediction, confident in preparation, but always humble in victory or defeat." If he can’t be confident in his ability and preparation. Then we should apply the same rule to Kobe and mj who bet on themselves as the best players and people sees it as killer mentality. But when lebron does it, it’s not the same.
@@charlesdavis-aitken4843 how many chips Wilt got in his 5 prime seasons? They play the game to win yeah, or is Russ your greatest players of the 2010's ???
Late here but one line sticks out to me. "If MJ didn't retire he would've just been putting up crazy numbers on a losing team" is that not what Lebron has been doing for the past 3 seasons?
What he didn't show is how the eras changed and how ppg, Reb, AST increased for teams and for every player. Allowing for lebron to keep his numbers when he is actually worst than he was. But the weak era allows him to have inflated numbers
@@MrSlashblade he actually didn't. Lebron entered the league 1 year they changed the rules the next to start inflating stats. From 2004 forward pace and every stat started rising every year. So what you just said is false as fuck. The lowest scoring era in NBA history was from 95 to 04. Lebron played 1 year in that time
It was the lowest scoring era yet they couldn’t play zone or double, it was all 1 v 1 driven. Which obviously benefited MJ. What does LBJ look like in a league like that? Lmao 👑
@@LL-zm9go it was the lowest scoring era because it was the toughest defensive era, it was harder to score cause defense was good unlike now where there is no defense. They couldn't play zone, true. Zone makes it easier to score, specially If you are a midrange specialist. They could double, and they did all the time. They could also handcheck, hard foul you without a technical, there was also no 3 sex rule so centers could camp in the paint all they wanted and wait for drives to contest every dunk and layup. Now players have a free lane to the basket every time. Lebron James looks like Karl Malone at best in a league like that.
10:07 Well listen Michael used to guard his man and he was also guarding others as well as he was also a tremendous help defender. And Michael Jordan should be the last to denigrate the MVP as narrative-driven, he lost two MVPs in 1993 and 1997 because of voter fatigue. And let's not act like one player does not have more influence in winning and losing in basketball.
14:57 but what is the point of accumulating all these stats if you rest on defence and your team does not even win. Sorry but if you are not winning, then these longevity stats do not mean anything.
The most important thing about the goat debate is the criteria you use for your rankings. For example, if you say all that matters is rings, your goat should be Bill Russel, if it’s about having the most accolades, that’s Mike or Wilt.
MJ is the goat btw
If it's about longevity it should be lbj or kareem
If it’s most accolades Kareem the goat. 6x MVP, 6x NBA champ, 15x all NBA, 11 all defensive. And the Defensive player of the year award wasn’t introduced until Kareem started to decline, he definitely would’ve won at a 2 DPOY if it was around in his prime. But the GOAT is interchangeable for me at least.
To this I don’t understand why you have to pick what matters to you. We should factor EVERYTHING the player has done with Context. If we pick and chose arguments nothing will be agreed upon, and every take will be soooo opinionated
@@unosmith8856 why would anybody’s goat be longevity 🤣🤣🤣
I think it’s all about prefence tbh. Lebron has accomplished enough to be called the goat but if you think it’s still MJ then you will never think it’s Lebron
Unless Lebron leads a team to another chip. Then I would change my mind.
No, he hasn't. For you to think that he's the GOAT, you're basically asserting that he's better than MJ. He has way too many shortcomings in his career to be compared to MJ. His career archetype is all about stacking the deck and yet still having a losing record in the biggest stage.
@@johnniyogushima4349 lebron is way more well rounded then mj
@@pitrson666 Yeah, that big head is pretty round.
@@pitrson666 in what way? Did you know in ‘89 they let Jordan run the point for 24 games, averaging 30.3 points, 10.7 assist’s, 9.2 rebounds, and 2.4 steals, with 12 triple double’s in that span.
That’s not what the Bull’s needed him to do, but he could still do that at any time in his career
Lebron’s Longevity is great but I think what Jordan did in a shorter amount of time is even greater because Lebron is still chasing what Jordan did in 15 years going into his 20 year because having longevity without winning really doesn’t mean anything so actually it can start working against you let’s say the Lakers miss the playoffs the next 2-3 years or get knocked out in the first round that would be bad for Lebron‘s legacy
That's one of the problem. You're claiming that his chasing Mj. Bron just wanted to play w/ his son or sons. Everything that Lebron does, fans of Mj like you always find a way to connect it to Mj.
That’s what lebron dick riders don’t understand lmao
@@winstonperra8070that’s wrong when he’s been quoted himself saying he’s chasing “the ghost that played in Chicago”
I feel what Lebron did was greater…you can divide his career 4 times and all four parts will be top 20 players of all time. He also faced harder competition than Jordan.
@@KDP1004 That’s your opinion I disagree
Still can’t get over how on a short vids someone told BSOLZ he’s they fav character in spider man 💀
LMAOO
🤣
How can we bash mj for playing against “plumbers” but not acknowledge lebron only plays this long because of modern medicine and other health improvements in the last 20-30 years? It’s impossible to compare eras
Also notice how many great players from the 00's-10's era are lasting so long? CP3, KD, Curry are all in their 30's and are still balling out.
Obviously, none of them are really challenging Bron on Longevity+Excellence (yet), but had they not benefitted from technology they would've been long gone. It wasn't normal for a player to come back from an ACL at the top of their game like KD did, nor is it normal for Curry with glass ankles to be still running around the court after dozens of injuries. Everybody is playing better and longer over time because of technology.
By that logic why aren't players like Wade or Melo doing the same? Not even considering accolades but by your logic players nowadays on average should be about to play at/ close to their peak level for 2 decades. So name players from lebron's era doing the same. I'll wait
That's the annoying part about this debate, is that either side is trying to make arguments that one of Bron or MJ had to have something that discredits their career. To me they are more like MJ is 1A and Bron is 1B, because if you want to make the arguement that Bron's longevity is due to morden medicine, you would also have to put MJ on the 2003 Cavs roster and see how that pans out
@@chillbutton2986 That’s why he said it goes both ways, you can’t make the Plummer argument without understanding that we have better healthcare today. That’s why it’s unfair to compare both era, as they have different benefits or disadvantages that both players could’ve failed or capitalized on. Its speculations, that’s why it’s just a huge debate.
That’s why I hate when people regard the old era players as ‘plumbers’. That doesn’t apply to MJ though. I still don’t get how tf people say the 90’s were a weak era. 90’s got some of the most skilled players ever. Casual ass fans.
People need to stop lying to themselves. We all know who the real GOAT is...
It's Westbrook, coz he averaged a triple double last season.
And also 2 seasons before them.
it's scally gawddamnit!
I thought it was Brian Scalabrine
@@oilbaron3126 crazy how people forget
I don't bother with goat debates. I just look at the best players from each era.
2020s - Giannis
2010s - LeBron
2000s - Kobe, Duncan
1990s - Jordan, Hakeem
1980s - Bird, Magic
60s & 70s - Wilt, Russell, Kareem
How it should be done... how u gonna be of all time anything if time still going
Not throwing in shaq with kobe and duncan 👀 just my opinion but at some point you would compare them era vs era
@@Emmanny Shaq's peak is one of the highest ever, but so short. The conversation around shaq is mostly in the 3 year span with the Lakers. So I can't put him If I'm looking at thw absolute best in a decade.
I put Giannis in 2020, because he's still improving, and is dominant on both ends, ans is entering his prime. We could be witnessing a sustained level of dominance, that could span this decade (instead of 3 or 5 years).
GiannASS lmao
If you look at the best players from their era then where the h3ll is Steph Curry in the 2010s? You added Hakeem with his 2 little rings just to put him in with MJ era, something tells me you're a LJ fanboy!! 🤷🏿♂💯
The huge dip in the MJ curve is his 2nd season coming off a foot injury… and the next huge dip is Washington years
Good point but why many people don't seem to remember that MJ came out of retirement to the Washington Wizards is because of a business move...do you think MJ only played for them because he loved the game and to give up his minority share in the team...NO he came to make a power move to show the league that he can fill seats
excuses 😓
@@nephhhhhh Are you joking? You just got presented with factual evidence that changes the outcome of the debate, but your ego is too fragile to even consider the truth. The real issue here, is that you're afraid of being wrong, and your willing to disregard any evidence that could sway the argument in oppose to your favour.
Bsolz is actually the one person that helped me learn more about Jordan and his career. It was a breath of fresh air from the osns, flights, and cash videos who yell and don't have that much basketball knowledge. So I actually thank bsolz for keeping me in the loop. There's not that many people his age that know that much about Jordans career.
Sometimes when you watch videos you have to separate those who love the art and want to know the history of the game or those who just jump on a bandwagon and join the fanboy train.
you basically graduated from creators that don't know anything about basketball to creators that know a little more about basketball, shown by bsolz thinking lebron travelled
@@zerti86 haha hilarious. Basketball is probably 15-20% of what I dive into, so I gotta get my fast food content, ya feel me? 😂
The next step after creators like Bsolz are creators like Thinking Basketball with his "greatest peaks" series. And after that it's gathering all the advanced metrics yourself, watching a lot of tape and putting context to all that.
Flight believes that Steph Curry is the 2nd greatest player of all time. Dude delusional
Imagine if Bron is still averaging 25 7 7 at 45 💀
It's all about what you value more for the goat debate. I personally believe that MJ is the goat because he has the perfect mix of everything.
Winning, skill, unmatched competitiveness, clutch, athleticism, statistical peak, and influence on the game.
very true
True it’s the criteria that you put forth for the goat debate.
That's what actually made him the GREATEST among all basketball players.
He played in a weak era
@@jackjax7921 yeah a "no blood, no foul" era.
I personally feel like the longevity argument would only work if MJ hadn’t accomplished so much more in less time. In my opinion, if you said LeBron is the goat because he averaged stats for a longer time, you’re basically saying stats are more important than accomplishments (which is fine, but at that point you’re basically changing how players have been ranked for pretty much the entirety of the NBA). Accomplishments have always been more valued than just stats. I feel like Mike has the best collection of both. Also, I feel like the Jay comparison isn’t the best because even there, you could use accomplishments (#1 albums, Grammys won, etc).
Stats is an accomplishment to get. Lebron being the only one to have 37k-10k-10k is an accomplishment. When is longevity gonna factor into the debate when more players plays greater for long? Lebron is the only one who shown actual longevity. Which is being used against him as stats padding
Theres so many nuances to this take but honestly the biggest counter to what your saying is, the talent, while MJ accomplished more the talent in the NBA at the time and the way it was played was completely different, Lebron has held greatness in arguably one of the most talented and stacked times in the NBA ever while the way the game is played has also changed with the importance of perimeter offense and defence both.
@@negusknight7918 I don’t think it’s stat padding. I think it is an accomplishment, but personally I don’t think longevity stats matter as much as actual accolades. I think of it this way: if most people see Michael as the Goat, it’s usually because of his accolades right? Bron doesn’t have the accolades of MJ, so more likely than not, him getting more longevity stats isn’t going to make someone anoint him as the Goat (because stats were never the most important thing to them anyway). I think accolades, peak averages, advanced stats, and longevity stats all come into play and I think MJ has a greater collection of those things than Bron does.
@@pimpinb11 at the end of the day. The debate is kinda your opinion and input like how you value this more than that.
Don't forget that MJ has better career stats even including his wizards seasons, which also weigh more heavily on his overall since he played less seasons. Lebron hasn't even had a bad season yet.
Harsh truth about goat debate is it doesnt fooking matter
*MICHAEL JORDAN vs LEBRON JAMES*
This is a silly debate. Clearly Michael is better. It's not even a close one. But let's go to facts. Updated after Lebrons 18th season. Michael Jordan has
• 2 more rings
• 2 more finals MVPs
• 1 more DPOY
• 1 more seasons MVP
• 9 more scoring titles
• 3 more steals leader
• 3 more all defensive team selection
• Beat 20 50+ win teams in the playoffs (Lebron only defeated 10)
• Jordan never average less than 40% Field Goal in the Finals
Lebron did it twice
• 6/6 (never allowed a game 7)
• Lebron had much more help
• Jordan never had a teammate averaged more than 22 points in the Finals..
Kyrie averaged over 28 points
DWade averaged more than 26 and
Anthony Davis averaged 25 points.
• MJ never ever had a finals meltdown like Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs
• MJ had more points in the playoffs in less games..
All of this accomplished in 13 seasons, Lebron is in his 19th seasons still chasing the "ghost that played in Chicago"
• Michael Jordan in the playoffs has put up atleast 40ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in 6 different playoffs series. Along with an average of about 55% shooting, 3spg and 2bpg. (86 vs Bos, 89 vs Cavs, 90 vs Philly, 92 vs Miami, 93 vs Phoenix, 88 vs Cavs) Jordan won every one of those matchups, except for the 1986 matchup vs the Celtics.
• Jordan in 88-89 averaged 32ppg, 8rpg, 8apg, 3spg off 54% shooting. Lebron has never even came close to this stat line.
• in 87 thru 92, MJ averaged 5 straight season of atleast 51% FG shooting. Lebron has never done this.
• the lowest FT% MJ ever shot in a season was 78%. Lebron highest in a season is 78%.
• MJ has a higher playoff FG% of 48.7% to Lebron 48.3%
• MJ has a higher playoff player efficiency rating of 28.6 to Lebron 27.3.
• MJ shoots a higher playoff 3 point percentage of 33.2% to Lebrons 32.9%
• MJ also shocked the league by being the first (and only) player to have 100 blocks and 200 steals in the same season, then turned around and did it again the next year..
Seriously this list can keep going. This isn't even a debate. MJ is the GOAT..
Michael in only ELEVEN Complete Season with the Bulls.
• 10 STRAIGHT Scoring Title
• Won Defensive Player of the Year,
• 9 times all defensive team,
• 9 time All NBA
• 5 league MVPs
• 6 finals MVPs
LBJ missed the playoffs completely in his first 2 years. Jordan didnt with scrubs on his squad. Jordan played 82 games 9 times in his career once at 40. LBJ only played 82 games once. In 89 Jordan won the Scoring Title, All Star MVP, Slam Dunk Title, Regular Season MVP and Defensive Player of the Year, something LBJ has never done. Jordan also averaged 41 pts a game for an entire Finals shooting 50% and won. Something else LBJ never did..
All 11 season. MJ has done in 11 season, things Lebron hasn't done and won't do in his whole career...
Check Mate. Last but not least. It's all about killer instinct or lack of. I am not putting someone who's a known cheater and quitter above someone who imposed his will in 4th quarter to rip out the hearts of his opponents. That's why he's undefeated, never seeing a 7th game.
No
Checkmate for MJ
Everything looked factual until the end. Where killer mentality was brought in. That notation is all subjective and is just to discredit lebrons. Plus how he cheat in team game?
This Jimmy High Roller video is literally just talking about the positives of longevity without talking about any of the negatives. If you played longer why didn't you accomplish as much? If you played longer why didn't you win as much? Horrible arguments
he literally went over that toward the end
For his position, he was way above the rest, but the league as whole MJs competition was tough. Jordan was in the era of one of the greatest mvp races of all time, when there were around 10 MVP candidates at the time. Stockton was in 10th, avging 14 pts, 14 assists, which you don't see nowadays for a point guard. Hakeem avg 23pts, 12 rebounds, a mean double double and defensive monster. Dominique Wilkins was avging 30pts, 6rebounds. He's known for dunking but he was more than that as he avg 30 not just from dunks. Malone avged 27 pts, 12 rebounds. Drexler avg 27 pts, 6 rebounds. Charles Barkley avg 28pts,11 rebounds. Magic Johnson was still in MVP convos, avg 19pts, 6 rebounds, 11 assists. Even Larry bird had his greatest offensive season avg 29.9 pts, 8 rebounds. The league was stacked with talent, with stat lines comparable to stars today. All of those great players, but Jordan rose to the occasion and was able to edge out the other great competitors, by avging 35pts, 6 rebounds, and 6 assists, and won the MVP race with all of those other players I mentioned. Jordan had competition, and I didn't even mention people like Reggie Miller, Ewing, David Robinson, Gary Payton & Shawn Kemp, Lafayette, and so on. People only say the era was weak when it wasn't to discredit Jordan. The competition was actually strong and if Jordan wasn't there anyone could have won that MVP race and enhanced their careers. The only reason you don't see shooting guards who can rival Jordan is because the league was ran by big men. Thats why you see a lot of players above have 25pt double doubles. The guards back then were great professionals, but Jordan was an anomaly, and back then we didn't see guards dominate the way he did, especially in a league ran by big men. And today we see a lot of big men dominating and taking advantage of the small ball guard oriented league. Embiid, Giannis, and Jokic are all big men. Any of those big men above could be in the MVP race in today's league, but no one talks about the great players of the past because the footage looks old, and all the TV analysts are the worst basketball historians to grave the screen but fans just regurgitate all the hate and bs like they do. So yea, this is my take on the whole weak competition thing.
I don’t think ppl say the era was weak Bcs of the individual stars but more so the teams surrounding them. I think it’s pretty fair to say the average nba player now was better than the average nba player in the 80s and 90s. Which is fine that’s just the natural progression of things with advancements in nuance and sports medicine. That and the bulls in the 90s were a lot like the warriors in the late 2010s, obviously the best team and a shoe in to win albeit a major fumble.
All those stats you mentioned I could put them
Side by side next to players today. The league will always have its stars, it’s the role players who greatly improved
The 98 Bulls were far from the best in the league. Pippen missed most of the season and Rodman wasn’t that good. They nearly lost to the Pacers.
They were also not the best in 93 because they had a 57 win record to the Knicks 60 and the Suns 62, and Charles won MVP that year and Jordan doesn disagree with that.
I mean if Mugsy Bogues survived that era. Then where is the defense?
People want to talk weak competition when in 10 years they're gonna be saying "Yeah but LeBron played with SoundCloud rappers" lol it's all the same shit different decade
I’ve avoided this video for so long because I thought I’d hear some ignorance and get mad, but Jimmy made great points, and y’all’s rebuttals also had merit
I like how MJs first ring came off sweeping the pistons who were the reigning champs and beating Magic and the Lakers in the finals 4-1 when magic was the mvp in 1990 the year prior… but people like to use the “the Lakers and pistons were old argument”….
Meanwhile….
Lebron first ring in 2012 came when
Kobe was getting bounced in the 2nd round (never met him in the finals by the way)
Spurs we’re retooling their roster around aging core and were 5 years removed from last finals run….
And the big 3 Celtics were on their last legs on the cusp of packaging KG and Paul pierce to the nets…..
🤣🤣🤣🤣 the goal is to win chips not pile up a bunch of stats. "If I wanted to pass Kareem I'd still be playing" Jordan in 99
Jordan also claimed if he wanted to play for stats, he would never have quit until he got to 30,000 points and passed Wilt's points.
Then he came back and got 30,000 points in his first Wizards year, and passed Wilt half-way through his second year. Then he quit, 'coincidentally' still having 0.05 ppg more than Wilt for top scoring average.
Don't pay attention to what he says, but what he did.
Then why is bill russel not the goat?
Jordan is the goat in my humble opinion because he acquired his stats at a time when the NBA rules were not as relaxed as they are today which Lebron is part of. Even though both player stats are close in many areas, I think this is what sets them apart. It's not just the stats but the rules / difficulty in obtaining those stats in comparison with another player in any sport, video game or life in general. But who's to say that either player wouldn't have had similar stats in the other player's error.
Lebron played in a similar era to start his career and he was still dominant. People forget that lebron was drafted several months after Mj retired
youre forgetting that the pace of the game was faster meaning more possesions, if lebron played in the 90s hed average 30ppg
13:42 The assist stat requires another teammate, aka an entirely different person to determine if you get credit for this INDIVIDUAL STAT.... it doesnt matter how great a passer you are if they dont make a shot, you dont get credit and 70% of lebrons rebounds are uncontested westbrook type rebounds.
First of all the assist. A great passer generally gets these numbers by passing to players with the best look and yes I do agree it relies on that person making the shot, but the point is you placed that person in the best position in order to make that shot, thus you deserving credit for being a key factor towards the points generated. 2nd the rebounds point, yes alot is probably those easy rebounds, but dont you think players like kareem should be getting the most of those rebound stats just because of their size alone? The only reason lebron is above all of them is because he did everything the others can do just as good if not better at a way way way longer time...
your argument would be good If lebron did not average atleast 25 5 and 5 for 17 years
LeBron is also more turnover prone than Jordan. Plus they relaxed the criteria for an assist in the summer of 2005, before LeBron's 2nd season. Which means he's had inflated assist numbers his entire career.
They also changed defensive rules to eliminate hand checking in LeBrons second year so the league average of players averaging over 20 pts increased drastically during LeBron entire career. Considering that and that Jordan wizards years dropped his averages
You're looking at these stats wrong. 0.2 is a very large gap in these. In a lot of these LeBron isn't even second place.
I wouldn’t say it’s *that* big, but you’re right, it’s a bit bigger than they were saying
ur trippin. 0.2 could be the difference of 1 basket lol
I was born in 1990, and have watched basketball since I was 4, 28 years of watching basketball. And in 28 years, not a single player has ever made me more excited to watch basketball than Jordan. Rings, stats, accolades and everything aside, Jordan made basketball important to the world. He made the game so much fun to watch, even middle age housewives were wearing bulls and Jordan gear and going to games.
Not even curry, I feel like they are very close in that regard. Like the ones to make me so excited to watch basketball have been mj, curry and lebron.
Not talking about who’s the goat btw
@@gamecrab1015 wanna know the sad part? Jason Williams is my favorite player of all time, but even I know Michael was an absolute phenomenon.
I think longevity can go against Lebron at some point. Mj really only had 11 full healthy seasons and look what he accomplished. Lebron in at least 6 more seasons can't get as many rings, MVPs, and FMVPs as him. I think despite the leading scorer thing that's an argument Mj fans will always have as long as he has so many more accolades than him. Kareem had more longevity than Mj so are we just changing it for Lebron?
But one could also argue that the gap between the best player is a lot closer in this era. Jordan never had the equivalent to The Lebron and KD competition for best player. At least not during jordan championship run.
@@1990POE Hakeem, shaq and he beat magic in the finals. And before you try to downplay Hakeem he was drafted before Mj and nobody gives Houston shii for it.
@@comebackkid5976 you’re missing my point bro. I’m saying there was such a huge gap between MJ and the 2nd best player back then. There was never a debate on who the best player was during his championship run only who was the 2nd and 3rd. While Lebron and Kobe and Lebron and KD and Lebron and curry were actual debates on who was the best player in the game. That’s not knocking jordan. I’m just stating a fact
@@comebackkid5976 regardless of the superstars Jordan played, the team he had was ridiculous. After he retired, the Bulls still were a strong playoff team. Lebron didn’t have a top team around him until he got to the heat where he choked his first year but after that he took advantage and if it wasn’t for Chris Bosh and Dwade declining in ability then he probably wouldn’t have went back to CLE until his final years and a pro. This is the reason Scottie came out and said what he said, he obviously feels like MJ was hyped a lil too much.
@@1990POE there was less competition and less help lebron has played with better players
I like how he says the bulls were ready to build around mike….
From being drafted till the 93
Only major additions/moves Chicago made
1) drafting Scottie and Horace grant in 1987 who weren’t ready to make major contributions for another 2 years….
2) trading for role player John paxson in 1985
3) trading Charles Oakley for bill Cartwright…..
With sharpshooters like Craig Hodges to come in and shoot 1 three pointer per game and average 4-6 ppg…. Yeah his team was stacked…..
if lebron had the exact same team as lebron in 1991 and somehow lost in the finals or before the finals people would complain he didn’t have enough help…..
TOP COMMENT award goes to you sir!! They never add the turnover STAT to the conversation either or the loses he's adding up along the way!!
No your getting this wrong the bulls were a good defensive team and jordan fitted their playstyle they needed a scorer
The bulls were a good team because they fitted his playstyle
Lebron needs good players because he is a playmaker
Wasn’t Scottie the oh I don’t know the FIFTH pick in the draft? Also drafting a HoF is now being downplayed is crazy, especially when Lebrons highest pick in his first stint was 10th and they used it to pick a SMALL FORWARD. You know the position LeBron played?
Lebron would have to go against a big 5 with a 3 7 foot 5 Point Gaurds with Steph Curry 3 point Shooting,Michael Jordan Mid Rande shooting,Shaq dominance,John Stockton perimeter defense and Hakeem Interior defense
@@MrSlashblade lol
After this season goat debate close...shut down
"It's a narrative driven award" the new rallying cry of the Bron disciple who's in denial
Shoutout to the Lakers man 😂 dem boys at home for the playoffs
Tough year for them
Lakers 4 Life!!
All this longevity and still accomplish less
Yeah GOAT😂😂😂
I like how people forget when LeBron returned to Cleveland, he took a 2-week vacation to Miami. After looking out of shape, he came back a changed man. He needed that Miami Biogenesis treatment.
Trueee
Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt there also a story about some roid company delivering a package in miami for LJ (only initials were on the package)
And the broker was mr. Paul which is odd since lbj's agents is rich paul
His name was on the Biogenesis Legislature.
@@flexinja1166 That's what I said.
solz is funny asf for laughing when Paul showed up
I love this damn duo
Think of what Jordan could have done if he entered the league at LeBron's age and didn't retire twice. I don't think we'd be having this debate.
LeBron being this good for this long is extremely impressive but I don't think career length should have as much importance in this debate. Jordan's 40 year old season was good (not Jordan good) after being out of the league for a like 4 years. Eye test, but while LeBron has always looked like a man among boys on the court, Jordan was transcendent. A lot of people who didn't get to watch him play are missing a lot of context and perspective.
Okay, so about the advanced stats. I mean look, they're great, but they are a lot muddier than most people assume. So if we're doing overall careers then Jordan's wizards stats negatively impact him. On top of this teammates are a thing that heavily impact these stats as well. Look ay the on/off numbers with Lebron with and without D-Wade. All of his numbers increase massively. For Jordan I haven't looked at the data in a while, but I'm pretty sure Rodman led the bulls in plus minus because he was playing a lot of his minutes either alongside Pippen and Jordan or just feasting on bench units which massively inflated his stats. These numbers are much better than the typical slashline where you can have Drummond making all-star teams by catching his own misses (Damn, he really had Detroit fooled for a while lmao), but they still need some context.
Also you shouldn't look at MVPs, but instead MVP shares which are calculated by the total number of votes that a player recieves. So what I mean by this is that that Steve Nash has 2 MVPs, but 2.429 MVP shares while Kobe has only one MVP but 4.202 MVP shares which still isn't perfect but far more indicative of a player's actual ability than the straight up MVP.
NGL, the edit in the video is amazing.. the pop up circles and the fades.. Kudos to the editors.
my main problem with the longevity argument is the fact that when you rank lebron higher cause of his longevity, you often ignore the reasons why he has managed to last this long at best is because of the technology players have access to that helps keep them in shape and knowledge of weight training which was uncommon in the 80s and 90s, and at worst, you have the LeBron PED argument, which while not set in stone, has enough there to make you go "hmmmmmm"
PED And steroid were still used in the 80s-90s who is to say players back then used it. The PED thing only applies to lebron because of his longevity. Modern technology isn’t the only factor that keeps lebrons for playing this long. It’s his dedication to the game and ability to say focus and workout, eat healthy and not have any bad repercussions on his ability to play the game.
@@negusknight7918 thought I didn't say it when I should've I should clarify that I wasn't implying peds were the only reason he has played for so long. I do acknowledge that lebron is still an unbelievable physical specimen and he does work hard to maintain his body, those things don't mean that something like that has to be factored in when we compare him to Michael Jordan because as far as we know, there is no reason to suspect Jordan was using any peds.
@@negusknight7918 and while the improvement of technology and weight training in modern day basketball doesn't necessarily translate to his longevity, it's a factor
@@jstopgamingl1671 modern technology is a factor for longevity but if you don’t utilize the technology than you won’t play for long
@@jstopgamingl1671 and why not? In a sport like basketball your career should last like 10years of sustain elite level of play, at best. Even wilt had 7-8 years of elite play and he’s a better athlete then both before steroids were abused. I’m pretty sure Bron uses ped but why doesn’t Jordan gain any suspicion?(who’s trainer said he gained 10lbs of muscle in the off-season which is impossible for an athlete who has already seen a weight room, while doing extreme cardiovascular exercises) steroids were in EVERY sport, it’s really childish to think Jordan just so happened to never have any real muscle injuries (or any of the nba stars) while playing a physically demanding game because they’re just that good.
I always thought the GOAT debate was pointless because of how rules define league averages. Also, most people will hold Jordan as definitive GOAT due to right guy, right time mentality, Almost like Magic with PGs.
The thing is that even if individual acomplishments are not perfect because they rely on narratives, and Championships are team depend on your team, Jordan got more of everything in mostly full 11 seasons than Lebron in almost 18.
7 years are a good handicap, if people didnt give Lebron as many MVPs as Jordan is because he wasnt as dominant compared to other players.
Even if you cut it off at 10 years Bron got more mvps then Jordan. Anybody can play the game. The problem is basketball is the only sport where longevity shouldn’t count. Or should be overanalyzed where it’s negative.
Thats not really fair though because it's not like if Jordan played more seasons he could have done more. Like Bron is playing longer because Bron is great longer than Jordan was. I still see your point though
@@MrSlashblade mj has more mvps then lebron all time
@@MrSlashblade plus, in a 10 year span they would have the same amount of mvps
@@michaeljordan3166 and Kareem got more mvps then Jordan all time, Bill got the same mvps in less years, we can keep going
Bru yall are really out here trying to debate about the goat, buy yall forgetting that Russell Westbrook averaged a triple double last season
Real question is this, if Prime Mj and Prime Bron were on the same team, how many rings they getting
All of them
Yes
None because their egos would clash. Especially Jordan’s
Bron would have to be the Point Guard and settle a bit more to focus more on Playmaking. Jordan would be more off ball but also would have to sacrifice quite a bit as he was a all time Playmaker in terms of how much he created in offense due to his overwhelming rim pressure and underrated passing capabilities (a very good and willing reactive passer). Also Jordan would have to work on his three point shot if they play in this era or otherwise they wouldn't mesh. Even then it's not guaranteed that it works. The thing is that LeBron is a floor raiser who works best when he makes all decisions and dominates the ball while he is surrounded by Shooters. Jordan on the other hand is a ceiling raiser who works best when he has a functioning team around him that can do something will the ball and not just stand there waiting for a ball.
The playstyle of the two in combination with their egos doesn't really work.
“Is a player’s performance regardless of its excellence all in vain if his team loses”…. To the average person who appreciates greatness, hell no. But to most people yes cause 6-0 and 4-6. One of the biggest arguments for Lebron is the fact that he has had to deal with much more bs than Jordan while still being great. He is a rose through the concrete. Jordan is a rose in a beautiful garden.
@Creative Tagged in case you didn’t read my comment, I am specifically talking about on the court. And you DONT wanna compare off the court shenanigans with Lebron and Jordan. It’s not close. Plus, one of Bron’s teammates was with his mom in Cleveland. Not to mention him being outspoken in terms of his political and social stances
@Creative Tagged lebron grew up without this dad his mother had him when she was 16 she struggled to provide for him he lived in poverty. And in the NBA Jordan had the greatest coach of all time (at the time) and a great roster in let’s be honest not the greatest era. Compare it to lebron with trash rosters in an era with super teams and dynasties and a league dominated by talent top to bottom
@@sethrobinson9291 You sound crazy. You want tell me tht losing a love one to murder is nothing compared to the bs Lebron inflicts on himself. Please make me understand, because if you’re saying MJ father being murdered doesn’t compare to the simple bs Lebron inflicts on himself, you’re a foolish human being and put value in nonsense.
@@yahiakamel2747 What great couch did MJ have. Tell me what makes Phil great before he started coaching for the Bulls. Name one thing Phil did tht made him the greatest coach of all time before he started coaching for the Bulls. You can’t because the Bulls was his first head couching job. Man y’all millennials are delusional.
@@mayjaaudio6539 thats like saying what made popovich great before he was with the spurs. Are you stupid? What did the bulls accomplish before Phil Jackson? Literally nothing. Couldn't beat the pistons and were not a championship contender. He absolutely is a great coach and it doesn't matter if the bulls was his 1st or 12 th head coaching job he's still a great coach. Clown
as impressive as longevity is, you play to win the game. To win, not to play the longest
Calling LeBron a “washed Kareem” is the dumbest thing i’ve heard all week.
Like are you serious? This is some Skip Bayless level of hating man.
He didn't call him a washed Kareem... He said Lebron has already "washed" Kareem in regards to longevity. Meaning he been surpassed Kareem in that area. You gotta learn the lingo
You and the 10 other people that liked ur statement can’t understand basic lingo
Bro that fucking double dribble comment sent my sides into orbit, I was coughing so hard from not being able to breathe I was laughing so much 🤣
I wonder how damaging it would be to his career if we found out he was using PEDs heavy. Would it have a similar affect to Lance Armstrong or would people excuse it? Barry Bonds, Arnold, Ole dude from UFC Roy Jones have lost almost all their prestige from it I wonder if LeBron would as well
It would. Only dude that shouldn't be given a lot of flak for using PEDs is Barry Bonds. Why? Basically every MLB player ever used PEDs, Bonds just happened to be a special target for the MLB to expose.
The PEDs are assumptions. Who is to say player back then didn’t use it too. Just because of lebrons longevity people assume he’s on PEDs
@@negusknight7918 no he's on peds lol he had a growth removed from his jaw in 09
@@bboywolf let's not forget when he 1st came back to the cavs on the "KETO" diet dude was superskinny couldn't even dunk, goes to Miami and comeback jacked like the LeBron were use to
The best debate on this I've heard is from Bomani Jones. You can look at all the stats and be like maybe LeBron, but then you go back and look at a MJ game and be reminded, "Oh yeah, I'm trippin!". MJ is goat.
What I think its asking is at what point does Lebrons overwhelming accumulation of statistics that correlate to longevity become too far superior in comparison to MJs that it cannot be disputed anymore, for example.. if Lebron just goes and retires with like 50k pts 15k ast and 15k (FOR EXAMPLE OBVIOUSLY THERE WOULD BE MORE STUFF LIKE ACCOLADES AND SUCH) will it just make him the goat by default? is there ever a point where the gap just becomes too big?
That point about music was a GEM
My only thing with longevity when talking about a player from a past era is people ignore the crazy strides sports medicine has made over the years. I think Jordan could've player longer with the healthcare and diets these players are on today
But you can apply that logic to other areas of the game too. Jordan’s era was more Physical than todays era but Lebron’s era has the better athletes than Jordan’s era
@@Sparks0114 Fair point. This is why I've stopped with the GOAT talk it's never-ending
I see your point but I think stuff like this is why there will never be an actual answer to the goat debate. There are all these different rabbit holes that we can go down to try and compare eras.
Longevity is not just a factor of modern technology, yes modern technology helps you play longer but you need dedication and the ability to stay focus on your routine of working out, eating healthy. Mj is great but most people agree his diet and choice of action affected his ability to play longer.
@@negusknight7918 this is also true, Modern technology ain’t gonna make dudes be this great for this long like Lebron. What he’s doing is special
8:24 Lavine and Tatum are both athletic LONG slashers with a decent sized bag and a beautiful jumper, and they’re both on teams that ACTUALLY play as a team where they have a really good second option (first option on some nights) with Lavine/Derozan and Tatum/Brown.
Goat of Longevity yes, Goat of basketball? Nope
Y'all niggas kill me😂😂💀 bro said "If it's you, I need your help"
Also for the advanced stats nerds (like myself), Here are Jordan's advance stats when he played for the Bulls for his CAREER:
PER: 29.1 (#1)
WS/48: 0.274 (#1)
OBPM: 7.9 (#1)
DBPM: 2.3 (#14)
BPM: 10.2 (#1)
So yeah.. GOATed there.
Nah I’m good
Lmao Solz trying to nerf Jordan defensive selection because of the competition
I liked his video I don’t think there was that much problems without, at least huge problems
Clearly, they don't know about advance stats. Those differences are huge.
Man who made that BS video, the GOAT conversation, goes off facts Mike's peak was higher than Lebron's, the man got two three peats, 6-0 in finals, no game 7's. We call Tom Brady the GOAT because of rings, not stats. In that case Payton Manning ,Dan Marino, Drew Brees or etc, would be the GOAT. You play to win the championships simple as that ,can't change the narrative to try to help your favorite player.
theres never one single narrative tho so what youre saying is kinda dumb. its all about what you value as a fan. its completely opinionated. its fans like you that think theyre above other fans for having different values on the game of basketball
Tom Brady also has insane career stats and has played at a top level well into his 40s there is definetly a difference also Era is different better current nba players means different teams will win rings
I guess by your logical of winning rings. Bill russell, Sam jones, Robert horrey are goats of goats. Plus bill Russell is the only player to 4-peat
@@negusknight7918 I guess Bill Russell is the than because the greats play for rings simple as that.
Brady has stats though, maybe not always the greater numbers depending whats discussed. But they're elite regardless.
The biggest issue with the longevity argument now is that LeBron has been playing 50-60 games per season now for the last 4 years. Still impressive, but Kareem and MJ played 74+ games at the age 40 in their last seasons
Okay but LeBron has been pushing that put him in the top 10 of the NBA every season, there's never been a season where LeBron has never at least been in the discussion of top 10 of the NBA, MJ and Kareem weren't an impact at all for their teams, they were roleplayers
To be the goat he's got to stop leaving eveytime his team loses a game
What an argument
Lbj didn't stop golden state, raptors, bucks and spurs wining a championship during his prime.
love y’all vids and the podcast keep grinding!
This debate should end for ever. There will never be a complete argument about the goat because how can considerate awards when some players played when theese awards didn’t even existed
I think there are 15 or so players that all have a case for the goat debate. When you are comparing athletes at the highest level of their eras, it is impossible to determine which is “better” with a non-biased and generally accepted criteria.
That's why we should have GOATs for different eras, MJ was the GOAT of the 1980s-2000s. Kobe the GOAT of 2000s-2010s & as a ' hater ' of LeChump he is the GOAT of the 2010s - 2020s, but it could also be Curry as well since he had large impact in the league.
@@ferchango6359 between the 1980’s-1990’s the goat is either bird or magic of that era either the lakers or Celtics were in the finals Every year of the 80’s with lakers getting 5 rings and Celtics getting 3 in that 10 year span
nah, there's criteria and it's MJ
@@ferchango6359 goat literally means greatest of all time , u can't be the greatest of all time your era, just say the best of that era
@@ferchango6359 what goes GOAT stand for there can only be one
Like a flagrant foul 2 today is a common foul in the 80s and 90s
This is something I’ve always said to greatness… the impact on not only the games and championships BUT the impact on future generations of the league. Just look at everyone who looked up to Mike growing up, wanted to be like Mike and was inspired to make the league. These monsters dominated the league… Kobe, Ai, Dwade ,Tmac and even Lebron himself. Some people has Kobe as their goat who got his game directly from Mj…. Case closed💯💯💯💯💯
if that the case curry wins
@@chewhatif4745 Not really, MJs impact is bigger than Currys, AIs impact is bigger than Currys.
@@ferchango6359 who the hell to day gonna say mj when they choot they say kobe or curry. but I can't denie the impact they had on the game in their time. but lebron is also the face of the nba
The truth about the debate is. When you saw them both play, there isn’t a debate!!!
Longevity doesn’t equal Greatest. What separates the greats from the greatest isn’t stats longevity MVPs etc it’s how you played the game night in night out how you played when pressure was on the will to win at all costs. That’s the difference between Brady and Rodgers/Manning that’s the difference between MJ and Lebron, you never questioned Mj or Brady will to compete especially when the game was tight or when the game wasn’t going their way they kept playing no matter what you can’t say the same about Lebron. To many times in his career he’s quit in games felt the pressure of the moments and didn’t perform up to his own standards that’s why he can’t be the GOAT.
It's longevity plus greatness
The one category the Leflop James fans like to note is longevity but they don’t mention load management or the softness of the NBA game today. And when the truth comes out about what he’s put into his body comes out, “keep that same energy.”
The stat I think best illustrates how great a player is is MVP award shares. LeBron has the most all time, but MJ has the most per season. So if sustained greatness is your thing, then you'd probably say LeBron is the GOAT. But if sheer dominance over an certain era is more your speed, then it's MJ all day. I used to think LeBron would overtake MJ eventually, but I think the conversation is over at this point.
That’s where your wrong. To think Mj is the goat is fine but to think that lebron will never overtake him and or isn’t close at the moment is just incorrect
@@yahiakamel2747 I'm sorry but 28 year old LeBron isn't walking through that door any time soon. It's time to give up on LeBron's GOAT case. He made a hell of a run at it. But there's nothing LeBron can do between now and the end of his career that is going to change anyone's mind about who the GOAT is. People have seen enough. Either he's your GOAT or he isn't at this point.
@@cryptaku3404 I tend to agree but you can’t say there’s nothing he can do. Hypothetically he wins 2 more championships he’s the undisputed goat essentially. So it’s not impossible
well to me the biggest thing against LBJ is "can he stop Jason Terry?"
Lebrons low lights in his career
1) not making finals in 2009 over Dwight Howard’s Orlando magic…. Kobe vs lebron had been hyped up and with the Celtics missing KG this was prime opportunity to go to the finals….
2) loss to Dallas in 2011 probably the biggest stain but I’m doing this chronologically… 3rd leading scorer on his own team… 4th quarter meltdowns we get the picture
3) first season on the Lakers missed playoffs this year lebron missed 27 games due to a groin injury however came back put up big numbers after saying he “activated playoff mode” and proceeded to lose a bunch of games to finish the year 37-45 as the 10th seed… they were only about 3-4 games outside the playoff picture when he returned from injury and had about 20 games left to play
4) this year with the Lakers with a team featuring himself, AD and russel Westbrook his team is currently 17 games under 500 and have been eliminated from playoff contention even with the addition of a play in tournament….
Ok show jordan low lights too
1. Yea it’s lebron fault for missing the finals in 2009 despite him averaging 38
Points 8 rebounds and 8 assists and hitting a buzzer beater in game 2. Still tho he he didn’t make the finals right?
2. Fair I’ll give you that lebron was dogshit in the 2011 finals
3. 2019 lebron before his injury had the lakers without any other stars on a 53 win pace. When he came back he was clearly still injured so obviously he didn’t play at his best still averaged 27 tho
4. This year lebron was exceptional averaging 30/8/6 on 53/36/76 splits but the rest of the team struggled. It’s not really his fault in that way but it’s his fault that he agreed on the Westbrook trade
@@DracoHim you show them bro.... I'll wait
You've left off a few...
2007 vs Spurs - 22ppg @35% with 6 TOV per game
2008 vs Boston - 11% FG game and 35% series, choking a 2-1 lead
2010 vs Boston - he had 3 BAD games that cost the series overall
2014 vs Spurs - biggest loss margins in history, scored 70% of his points during blowout (being down 15 or more) while the defense eased off him
2021 vs Suns - gave up on his team, terrible leader (couldn't win a game unless AD was the best player on his team)
jordan low lights:
1984: he averaged 4 turnovers And 4 personal fouls per game shoot 12.5% from 3
1990 shots 30% in a game 6 when he had a 3-2 lead and choked the series lead
1995: shot 36% from The field in a elimination game and only had 19 points
1997: he shot 38% in The confernce finals yet The bulls still win
sure these arent many but still jordan had his lowlights and I could probably find many more If I digged even more into jordans career
MJ would tear Lebron a new asshole on competitiveness alone.
My main problem with his vid is that he keeps harping on (and foreshadowing whenever he can) about longevity. I have no problem if that's what pushes him over MJ for some, but he doesn't ever see it from the other side. If longevity is basically the biggest factor (and your going to ignore championships conveniently), then you also have to acknowledge the opposite transience of MJ too, who accomplished so much in such a little amount of time.
Saying that one is better than the other is completely subjective regardless of all the numbers you want to pull out to suit your narrative. And to me LeBron will only equal MJ if he has at least the same amount of rings
The whole "flame shining brighter or longer" argument doesn't really push any of them over each other subjectively, and tbh can feel a bit like you're reaching
So to me, the only fair and unbiased way
remains the simplest;
How many rings you got ? Not because I want to ignore other aspects that make a player
unique, but because it's the only way to put everyone on an even playing field without picking and choosing the nuances that are only considered better or worse based on intangible opinions
You said it yourself even if lebron were able to win 3 more rings mj would still be ahead of him. At this point in the goat debate it’s the criteria that you put forth to fill your point of the debate nowadays.
Except rarely had we ever evaluated talent on a peak in multiple sports. It seems basketball is the only community that doesn’t get that. Everyone understands that peaks is so finicky because whose to say you put x in that situation he can’t replicate it. But sustain dominance is something where there’s way too many factors to just say replace x with y player. Because if “y” player was so good why couldn’t he do it in his era. There’s no running back whose peak challenges Erick Dickerson, yet rarely do people have him as the best running back some don’t even have him in their top 5. Ronaldo Phenomeno had an insane peak from the late 90s to early 00s, and people view Messi and CR7 better unanimously. Brady’s own peak isn’t really all time, as Peyton, Favre, and Rodgers have arguably a better peak, but his longevity outruns theirs. But basketball is the only sport where not only does peak overtake longevity, the wrong peak is chosen. As an individual what makes Jordan’s peak better then Wilt even in the slightest? This is a guy in 7 years had a scoring avg was better then Jordan’s best season, and yea his playoff saw a decline, but if you are going from 40 points to 33 the decline argument is pointless. Heck even Jordan’s “peak” runs from 87-93 so it’s not like his team accomplishments are even that insane. (Which is another problem, you want Jordan’s scoring peak, but at the same time seem to forget that you are removing some of his rings because 96-98 was clearly not peak Jordan).
And no how many rings you got isn’t the answer otherwise Jordan would be under Russell and Kareem without any arguments.
@@MrSlashblade most people don't count the 60s cuz only like 30 people played full time lol
@@ethanjones2008 imagine saying the reason why bill can’t be the greatest of all time is because of time itself. It’s in the acronym itself. And if bill is punished because of time why do people think jordan can’t or even LeBron?
solz n sage banger
It’s not even like Jordan Peak is higher by that much you could even argue 09 or 13 is better then Jordan’s Peak season It’s 50/50
No Jordans 5 best years vs lebrons 5 best Jordan averges 10 more winshares meaning he contributes to 10 more wins during that time. Which is insane. Wilt and Kareem both contributed slightly more wins the Jordan
The GOAT debate is so subjective though. It's just not about the rings and the stats. It's the combination of those and the myth that the player has become. That's why MJ is the GOAT for most people, especially the casuals. I became interested in basketball during the Jordan era and he is like this larger-than-life player in the 90s. It's like he can do no wrong on the court. I don't think Lebron has that impact yet.
I watched TSOs it's over stream and watching his attitude right here is so funny 😂
Hes so heated lmaoo
The lesmheat riding Is crazy
Your thoughts on numbers, stats and advanced numbers are why in the end it all comes down to the eye test and any epic failures. Mike for me passes the eye test because the feats he pulled off against players much bigger and very physical is epic. Lebron has the one major failure with the Mavs series. And then this year not making his team better is now a second failure to a lessor degree.
The longer you play the more failures you are likely to have...
@@justincrawley4256 True, But Lebrons failures have happened during the peak of his playing. The Mavs happened when he clearly had the best team and he was the best player in the league. He also had the Celtics series in the ECF where he quit on the team even though he was on a lesser team you don’t just quit. These are things we didn’t see from Jordan when he was losing to the Celtics and Pistons, if anything he elevated his game in a losing effort.
@@jayday545 what if I were to tell you Micheal had a similarly bad finals series to lebron once and no one ever talks about it cause his team won. Would you believe me
@@justincrawley4256 Go on…. 91) 31, 11, 6….92) 36, 6, 5….93) 41, 6, 8…. 96) 27, 4, 5. Probably the one you speak of but he of course won and leaned on a finally good Pippen….97) 32, 6, 7…98) 33, 2, 4. Lebron MAVs. 17, 6, 7. There is no similarity. The closest similarity would be James’ first finals which was 22, 6 , 7. In which he lost and didn’t play that great.
@@jayday545 i would take 17 6 and 7 on 48 percent shooting over 27 with 39 percent shooting any day. If the main thing you do for your team is score and you can't even do that efficiently that's a huge problem..... But they won so no one cares about that
Jxmy's video is so misleading it just makes the same tired argument he and others have been making for LeBron James for years. LeBron will never pass MJ simply because at this late stage in his career, he isn't even close to doing so. He would have to play in his 50s to pass MJ.
Love your content! (and Jimmy’s)
Simplify the view of the GOAT debate to these :
- Jordan's GOAT arguments are Nike and David Stern
- Jordan is a brand, LeBron is an icon
- Jordan's career is a fairytale, LeBron's career is a series of headline news
The more you think about it, the more it'll make sense
Lebron On that juice 💉. We all know it
Ppl forget about Bron going to Miami, the weird "woe is me" narrative on Bron's career needs to stop. Imagine applying the same logic to 80s Jordan, it would boost him out the atmosphere in this debate.
Honestly if Lebron was a bit more liked (cause he’s simply hated for stupid reasons and a controversial decision he made like 12 years ago), I really think there would be around the same amount of people who say Lebron is the goat as Jordan. Probably like 50% 45% 5% (everyone else). This debate is based so much on opinions and biases it’s just subjective at this point
Ong
Lebron is one of the most liked athletes of all time. I think where people get this "he's hated more than anyone" thing from the standards he's held to and nothing else. These are the MJ standards. When he didn't beat the godlike Celtics, the media said it was his fault. That Celtics team gave it to Magic and Kareem
Yes the goat debate now is likely opinion based. Even if lebron won 3 more rings mj fans would still have him ahead. Lebron is one of the most hated athletes because of the media. Social was not around when mj played which saved him from the scrutiny. Lebron has to deal with everyone of his actions on and off the court from the good to the bad. The Media could say lebron eating tacos on Tuesday could affect his legacy and people would believe.
@@theinktician he’s definitely liked a lot, but he’s definitely the most hated
i think some of the criticism against him is rational and valid, but some narratives have been over exaggerated to underestimate him
Playing for a long time is very respected. You can look at this different ways. LBJ played for 20 years and only won 4 championships. Do you play the game to win games and shampionships or to be able to say, i played 20 years and won 4 championships. Oh by the way, one championship was during covid. A lot of players didn't even play. LBJ is in my top ten of all time. The goat is MJ all day long.
Love yall keep up the good vids
Emmitt Smith won the rushing title due to longevity. But no one in their right mind believes he is the GOAT. It's a very weak argument for the GOAT.
Jay-Z hasn't had a good album since the Black Album, that hip hop comparison was crazy stupid.
The commentator said if LeBron continues to dominate the league, but he isn't dominating the league. He isn't even the best player, sure he is like top 10 but dominating the league? Absolutely not.
Jordan is the goat
I’m confused how people think LeBron is the Goat
I just can’t comprehend it and I want your best reason on why he is the Goat???
People only say Lebron is the GOAT because they either havent seen MJ play
Anyone who has seen MJ in his prime or can even look up videos of MJ in his prime know MJ is the GOAT
@@BaithNa even though Lebron my goat he’s not better than Jordan
The argument of longevity is a very strong one. I personally believe MJ is still better, but after a certain point you have to give it to LeBron
@@KingJinzo2125 even in terms of longevity jordan is not that far behind remember he was 35 in the last dance and was carrying the wizards to the playoffs at 40 until he got injured and that’s after 2 years out of the game
The video summed it up in the end, Lebron's stats are 95% as good as Jordans but he played for way longer. For some people that makes Lebron the goat
damn so lebron ain’t had any hall of famers playing with him? 😭😭😭
Everyone played with hall of famers
Luka has a better shot at being the GOAT than Lebron at this point
Luka better than Lebron right now tbh in terms of this season. Don't think that's debatable
Right because lebron went to the finals at 23. Was the youngest to achieve basically everything.
@@negusknight7918 Magic went to the finals younger than Lebron and won a title before him. So your statement is incorrect.
Luka better worry about making the playoffs before you even think about that lmao
Mj was dominant when the league was much more physical and big men were much more sought after at 6'5"-6'6". Also retiring during his prime. At mj's size and the sports technology they had, its amazing how durable he was. LeBron is all time status, but I don't think it's fair to compare him to MJ. EVEN MJ wasn't comfortable to compare era's. Would LeBron be on year 19 if he was playing in the 90's. There's just 2 many factors.
I think if Giannis wins 6 championships Lebron's legacy will be diminished. Alot of people don't respect Lebron. Whether it's the flopping or quitting on his team in the finals or saying he's gonna compete in the dunk contest. Lebron always under delivers.
That’s the problem with the media. Lebron is scrutinized by every action that he does. Players mj get the freedom to do what they want. But media wants lebron to play by an image when he doesn’t media and fan hate on him. Like the narrative that he quit on his team. Yes, he left because the organization was incompetent and he always leave at free agency when his contract is over. He never forces to leave. He isn’t a loyal player like dame and loyalty shouldn’t affect his legacy. If Giannis was able to win 6 rings who is to say he is the goat and better than mj not just lebron.
@@negusknight7918 The reason he is being scrutinized though is because he's the only one to self proclaim himself as the GOAT
I don't have MJ as the GOAT. I take a players five best seasons and compare. I have WILT as the GOAT. He's the greatest athlete ever with 4.6 speed 50 plus vertical and the strongest player ever with 500 plus bench 700 plus deadlift and 7'6 reach. With excellent mid range and post moves. With greatest weakness is that he didn't use his strength like lebron. I have Hakeem second he was a better defender than MJ. Offensively he was just as skilled he needed a second star around him. Only defensive center to have a season with over two steals and 4 blocks a game. Plus he consistently was able to guard guards on the perimeter. I have MJ just barely over lebron. He was a better defender on-ball than lebron. Offensively they were equal lebron better playmaker and MJ better scorer. Lebron gap in defensive on ball is too great to beat MJ. Lebron is close to Jordan as a team defender but his unwillingess to guard best player for entire games hurts him here. For me what hurts Lebron is his defense not his offense. He just didn't dominate series on the defensive end as much as MJ.
@@thepuzzycatzz4313 can he not be confident in his ability. A great quote: "I'm cocky in prediction, confident in preparation, but always humble in victory or defeat." If he can’t be confident in his ability and preparation. Then we should apply the same rule to Kobe and mj who bet on themselves as the best players and people sees it as killer mentality. But when lebron does it, it’s not the same.
@@charlesdavis-aitken4843 how many chips Wilt got in his 5 prime seasons? They play the game to win yeah, or is Russ your greatest players of the 2010's ???
Late here but one line sticks out to me. "If MJ didn't retire he would've just been putting up crazy numbers on a losing team" is that not what Lebron has been doing for the past 3 seasons?
What he didn't show is how the eras changed and how ppg, Reb, AST increased for teams and for every player. Allowing for lebron to keep his numbers when he is actually worst than he was. But the weak era allows him to have inflated numbers
Except Bron played, more years then Michael, in the lowest scoring eras in basketball. So no it didn’t
@@MrSlashblade he actually didn't. Lebron entered the league 1 year they changed the rules the next to start inflating stats. From 2004 forward pace and every stat started rising every year. So what you just said is false as fuck. The lowest scoring era in NBA history was from 95 to 04. Lebron played 1 year in that time
It was the lowest scoring era yet they couldn’t play zone or double, it was all 1 v 1 driven. Which obviously benefited MJ.
What does LBJ look like in a league like that? Lmao
👑
@@LL-zm9go it was the lowest scoring era because it was the toughest defensive era, it was harder to score cause defense was good unlike now where there is no defense. They couldn't play zone, true. Zone makes it easier to score, specially If you are a midrange specialist. They could double, and they did all the time. They could also handcheck, hard foul you without a technical, there was also no 3 sex rule so centers could camp in the paint all they wanted and wait for drives to contest every dunk and layup. Now players have a free lane to the basket every time. Lebron James looks like Karl Malone at best in a league like that.
As a Proud bron Stan. Y'all are right lol we will defend him with our life
10:07 Well listen Michael used to guard his man and he was also guarding others as well as he was also a tremendous help defender. And Michael Jordan should be the last to denigrate the MVP as narrative-driven, he lost two MVPs in 1993 and 1997 because of voter fatigue. And let's not act like one player does not have more influence in winning and losing in basketball.
Luck is a big part of the goat debate and I think people just cant except that
14:57 but what is the point of accumulating all these stats if you rest on defence and your team does not even win. Sorry but if you are not winning, then these longevity stats do not mean anything.
This is the problem. You creating your own criteria and narrative to suit the debate.
@@negusknight7918 how is that narrative? So when LeBron just accure stats and his team finished 11th in the West, we have to praise him? Like what?
Yo I love these two dudes man fr fr YALL funny as hell keep it going
GOAT JAMES