I think DJI’s Avinox system is going to blow most things out of the water! I’ve got a performance CX on my Pole Voima and never had a problem with it, interested to try the Bosch/TRP drivetrain although they’ll probably only make it compatible with the next gen motor🤦🏼♂️🙄 really dumb move if they do! Wouldn’t buy a bike with a Shimano motor on it, a mates experience of having 3 motors in less than 12 months plus all the comments I’ve read! Good video, nice to see a proper real world side by side test!👍🏻 I did look at the Nicolai but it weighs a lot, 27kg!
My brother has a Yeti e-bike and it weighs that much. It feels like a tank. He swears “you don’t feel the weight” but when I rode it downhill it was full Chonk. It was so heavy to move around. The Amflow at 20kgs is really going to disrupt the market.
DJI has incredible torque. Pinion should just team up with a existing manufacturer for a better motor and battery technology. The gearbox with a belt is s superior system.
Thanks for the review and sharing your thoughts. As a viewer though, this is a "Apples to Oranges" comparison at best. As there are several unknown or unstated points making a direct comparison tenable.
As an owner of a 2017 Levo, which I have fitted with a Rohloff, I'm convinced internal gearboxes are the future. So the Pinion MGU had instant appeal to me. I'm not sure if your tests really tell us any more than these bikes are different. I do agree with you that version 2 of the Pinion MGU will be the real deal breaker for whether this technology will supersede traditional external cogs and derailleurs.
Some dude in Australia put rohloff on a Levo…. would love such a bike…. I’ve a Merida eOne-Sixty 700 and when it’s time to upgrade (hopefully a year or two away) I will seriously look at Rohloff or Pinion MGU…. these bikes re crazy expensive in Australia
@@timscarman4599 I am in Australia. I've had the Rohloff in my Levo for over 2 years now. It is still performing marvellously well, and I think it was well worth the investment. For less than $AUD3000.00, I was able to get my original Bose motor reconditioned with much stronger bearings and far better waterproofing, together with the Rohloff gearbox install, and a new rear wheel build. It has extended the working life of my 2017 bile, which originally cost me $10500.00. If I were to opt to buy a new S-Works Turbo Levo, it would have cost me over $AUD22500.00 in late 2023.
I have a Rapcon/pinion and there's definitely room for improvement : noise is one but not important , as i like the noise more and more as it's noise of something that keeps on working ! No rattling of a chain-derailler-casset combination and one or two speeds that hardly work , gearing up or down never the same. i hope they'll have a new model controller real soon before mine breaks... a controller with a joystick knob ?! i'd like to see a test on how fast the Avinox blows through a chain/derail/casset set !-)
I'm curious about range? I've read that the pinion gearbox adds drag. I'm wondering if that drag has a real world measurable impact on battery drain. Otherwise, there is a lot to like with the maintenance wins on the gearbox system.
I love my Pinion. 😊 Just gave it a ride in snow and frozen solid surfaces today. Always found grips in the snow and had a lot of fun. No worries of my belt rusting after use. What I don't understand is how Pinion did not pull away from the bosch, as in lab tests on VeloMotion the bosch CX is clearly the weakest of allmost all bike motors.
@@FIGHTTHECABLE I was also surprised the Pinion didn’t pull away from the Bosch. One of the other issues may be the limiter is slightly too low on the Pinion powered bike
@TheBikeStudio Got bad news since I wrote this comment: My Pinion Motor is now on its 2nd defect. The first time is was leaking oil and sometimes a weird miss shift, the 2nd motor held 64km and now it's internal gears are somehow like spaghetti, was making gear gribding noises and it won't ride anymore.
One of the things I dont like about Bosch is that it imposes such crazy designs on the bottom bracket, a simple circular large diameter housing would look way better, would enable third party retrofits in the later life of the bike when parts arn't available from Bosch.
I’m not overly fussed with rattle or sound….. as long as it’s low-ish…. I’m a 54yr old trail explorer in Adelaide Hills, so minimal sketchy shit…. Btw my first even MTB, I’ve always had flat bar road bikes and a recumbent (Bachetta)
@@bmartinot you don’t need to with a standard T-Type system, maybe you should with a gearbox? If so, that’s another reason it doesn’t work for me just yet
@TheBikeStudio I've only ridden a pinion gearbox bike once and i backed of a tiny bit, less than with a deralier and it was far smoother, the ability to do multiple shifts at the same time means you only have to back off once and shifting stood still is a game changer in my eyes.
Yes the coffee grinder sound of the MGU would kill the joy of Emtb for me. I've updated my 2018 super silent, smooth and powerful 1.3 Brose Levo with a Rohloff manual change hub,170 mm Fox 38's 150mm cranks, 9piont8 steering head slacker kit + more. The silence is golden and goodbye derailleurs for me. A brand new spare sealed, updated motor and two 500wh batteries are the go for me.Going backwards with updates gives me what I want until they can come up with something as silent and smooth and reliable. E=mtb².
The Nicolai Eboxx MR14 is the bike you should try with Bosch motor Rohloff hub (manual change) belt drive with tucked in front mounted tensioner. Very very good setup. Its a good motor / hub gearbox (totally proven) quiet and no heavier than the MGU.(Goodbye derailleurs.) SERIOUSLY the weight of a Emtb actually gives you stability in the air ,traction and makes the bike feel more planted and comfortable. Depends if you want stability or flickability. Manual change( over electronic) Rohloff hub is far better for Emtb ..I can't notice the tiny bit of extra unsprung hub weight and you wouldn't either. E=mtb²
I like natural feeling of EP8, which is the only motor I’m experienced with… but like idea of Rohloff and belt…. I don’t really do jumps or super sketchy stuff…. Love the downhill bullock trails in my backyard, the Adelaide Hills… also like tech uphill stuff… so range and suspension most important for me, brakes as wel obviously l… as long as not tooo heavy 25-ish kilo is fine…. not fussed with moderate / low levels of noise or rattle…. only other bike I’ve ridden is a turbo levo alloy comp I hired for a week 2 years ago before making a decision to buy a much cheaper Merida eOne-Sixty 700 (still 7½ K Australian) and am more than happy with weight, motor feel, noise etc… just wish I had more range… Rohloff looks very appealing indeed…
@timscarman4599 Have a look at Paul Moirs Rohloff Australia pages. Video Mountain biking with Rohloff . I also have a Rohloff on a 2018 Merida 13500 km now.They get better with age. E=mtb²
I Dont think The Pinion Has Much Drag,The Losses Will Come From Running a Belt Drive to to the Massive Tension on it To Make it Work,That is Where the Increased Power Loss Comes From. Chain Drive Has More Losses The More it Gets Worn and Dirt in it All,But A Gearbox Will Have Some internal Resistance Due to The Gears Running in All and interacting All the Time With Each other. Apart From Batteries Getting More Power From Smaller Sizes I Dont See How You Can Reduce the Weight of an Alloy E Bike With a MGU Much More than the 26 KG As the Bike Has to Be made to Take The Loads on it,And Jumping etc.
Feel like the speed test is more cadence top speed limiter, feel like the pinion might be set to low. The cadence on both at 25 it’s way to high for me
Once you get older and your eyes start getting worse you will want a mouse sized display. Thats around 45 to 50 years old. Probably the target market actually.
I suspect the Pinion is only scaling its torque with a limited sub selection of the gears, the rider gets 12 but I suspect the Motor gets 2 or 3 maybe?. Nevertheless I like the system, However Pedelec's only make sence while motor power is legally regulated and could be side stepped by 1KW + wheel mounted system's that dont need a gear set to be effective.
@@TheBikeStudio Then think on, its a bit techy but I am curious and it would affect the performance. Separate to that with big enough motor and who needs gears anyway? there is a big envelope of possibilities and requirements and all these systems could be refined significantly.
Rah Rah pinion MGU! until you try the Valeo Cyclee, then you find clean shifting and 130Nm of power. it's better than the pinion but is nosier than the pinion at the moment.
The Pinion seems a bit disappointing, especially in terms of noise. I had a bike with a Pinion gearbox and thought it was OK but I still prefer a derailleur.
I think DJI’s Avinox system is going to blow most things out of the water! I’ve got a performance CX on my Pole Voima and never had a problem with it, interested to try the Bosch/TRP drivetrain although they’ll probably only make it compatible with the next gen motor🤦🏼♂️🙄 really dumb move if they do! Wouldn’t buy a bike with a Shimano motor on it, a mates experience of having 3 motors in less than 12 months plus all the comments I’ve read! Good video, nice to see a proper real world side by side test!👍🏻 I did look at the Nicolai but it weighs a lot, 27kg!
My brother has a Yeti e-bike and it weighs that much. It feels like a tank. He swears “you don’t feel the weight” but when I rode it downhill it was full Chonk. It was so heavy to move around.
The Amflow at 20kgs is really going to disrupt the market.
DJI has incredible torque. Pinion should just team up with a existing manufacturer for a better motor and battery technology. The gearbox with a belt is s superior system.
Thanks for the video interesting comparison 👍
You’re welcome 👍
Thanks for the review and sharing your thoughts. As a viewer though, this is a "Apples to Oranges" comparison at best. As there are several unknown or unstated points making a direct comparison tenable.
Good point! Thanks for your feedback 👍
As an owner of a 2017 Levo, which I have fitted with a Rohloff, I'm convinced internal gearboxes are the future. So the Pinion MGU had instant appeal to me. I'm not sure if your tests really tell us any more than these bikes are different. I do agree with you that version 2 of the Pinion MGU will be the real deal breaker for whether this technology will supersede traditional external cogs and derailleurs.
Some dude in Australia put rohloff on a Levo…. would love such a bike…. I’ve a Merida eOne-Sixty 700 and when it’s time to upgrade (hopefully a year or two away) I will seriously look at Rohloff or Pinion MGU…. these bikes re crazy expensive in Australia
@@timscarman4599 I am in Australia. I've had the Rohloff in my Levo for over 2 years now. It is still performing marvellously well, and I think it was well worth the investment. For less than $AUD3000.00, I was able to get my original Bose motor reconditioned with much stronger bearings and far better waterproofing, together with the Rohloff gearbox install, and a new rear wheel build. It has extended the working life of my 2017 bile, which originally cost me $10500.00. If I were to opt to buy a new S-Works Turbo Levo, it would have cost me over $AUD22500.00 in late 2023.
I have a Rapcon/pinion and there's definitely room for improvement : noise is one but not important , as i like the noise more and more as it's noise of something that keeps on working ! No rattling of a chain-derailler-casset combination and one or two speeds that hardly work , gearing up or down never the same. i hope they'll have a new model controller real soon before mine breaks... a controller with a joystick knob ?!
i'd like to see a test on how fast the Avinox blows through a chain/derail/casset set !-)
Fast I would expect. Also I wonder how many broken chains do to premature wear
I'm curious about range? I've read that the pinion gearbox adds drag. I'm wondering if that drag has a real world measurable impact on battery drain. Otherwise, there is a lot to like with the maintenance wins on the gearbox system.
Sadly we didn’t have enough time to test the range but I think reduced range due to motor drag would make sense
I love my Pinion. 😊
Just gave it a ride in snow and frozen solid surfaces today. Always found grips in the snow and had a lot of fun. No worries of my belt rusting after use.
What I don't understand is how Pinion did not pull away from the bosch, as in lab tests on VeloMotion the bosch CX is clearly the weakest of allmost all bike motors.
@@FIGHTTHECABLE I was also surprised the Pinion didn’t pull away from the Bosch. One of the other issues may be the limiter is slightly too low on the Pinion powered bike
@TheBikeStudio Got bad news since I wrote this comment: My Pinion Motor is now on its 2nd defect. The first time is was leaking oil and sometimes a weird miss shift, the 2nd motor held 64km and now it's internal gears are somehow like spaghetti, was making gear gribding noises and it won't ride anymore.
Pinion every day!
LOL.!
One of the things I dont like about Bosch is that it imposes such crazy designs on the bottom bracket, a simple circular large diameter housing would look way better, would enable third party retrofits in the later life of the bike when parts arn't available from Bosch.
I’m not overly fussed with rattle or sound….. as long as it’s low-ish…. I’m a 54yr old trail explorer in Adelaide Hills, so minimal sketchy shit…. Btw my first even MTB, I’ve always had flat bar road bikes and a recumbent (Bachetta)
Why not back off the pedaling when shifting?
@@bmartinot you don’t need to with a standard T-Type system, maybe you should with a gearbox? If so, that’s another reason it doesn’t work for me just yet
@TheBikeStudio I've only ridden a pinion gearbox bike once and i backed of a tiny bit, less than with a deralier and it was far smoother, the ability to do multiple shifts at the same time means you only have to back off once and shifting stood still is a game changer in my eyes.
Yes the coffee grinder sound of the MGU would kill the joy of Emtb for me. I've updated my 2018 super silent, smooth and powerful 1.3 Brose Levo with a Rohloff manual change hub,170 mm Fox 38's 150mm cranks, 9piont8 steering head slacker kit + more.
The silence is golden and goodbye derailleurs for me. A brand new spare sealed, updated motor and two 500wh batteries are the go for me.Going backwards with updates gives me what I want until they can come up with something as silent and smooth and reliable. E=mtb².
A spare sealed motor, wow, you are on another level ;)
Rohloff is just as noisy lol
Fantastic video Ben
Glad you enjoyed it 👊
The Nicolai Eboxx MR14 is the bike you should try with Bosch motor Rohloff hub (manual change) belt drive with tucked in front mounted tensioner. Very very good setup. Its a good motor / hub gearbox (totally proven) quiet and no heavier than the MGU.(Goodbye derailleurs.) SERIOUSLY the weight of a Emtb actually gives you stability in the air ,traction and makes the bike feel more planted and comfortable. Depends if you want stability or flickability. Manual change( over electronic) Rohloff hub is far better for Emtb ..I can't notice the tiny bit of extra unsprung hub weight and you wouldn't either. E=mtb²
I like natural feeling of EP8, which is the only motor I’m experienced with… but like idea of Rohloff and belt…. I don’t really do jumps or super sketchy stuff…. Love the downhill bullock trails in my backyard, the Adelaide Hills… also like tech uphill stuff… so range and suspension most important for me, brakes as wel obviously l… as long as not tooo heavy 25-ish kilo is fine…. not fussed with moderate / low levels of noise or rattle…. only other bike I’ve ridden is a turbo levo alloy comp I hired for a week 2 years ago before making a decision to buy a much cheaper Merida eOne-Sixty 700 (still 7½ K Australian) and am more than happy with weight, motor feel, noise etc… just wish I had more range… Rohloff looks very appealing indeed…
@timscarman4599 Have a look at Paul Moirs Rohloff Australia pages. Video Mountain biking with Rohloff .
I also have a Rohloff on a 2018 Merida 13500 km now.They get better with age. E=mtb²
I Dont think The Pinion Has Much Drag,The Losses Will Come From Running a Belt Drive to to the Massive Tension on it To Make it Work,That is Where the Increased Power Loss Comes From.
Chain Drive Has More Losses The More it Gets Worn and Dirt in it All,But A Gearbox Will Have Some internal Resistance Due to The Gears Running in All and interacting All the Time With Each other.
Apart From Batteries Getting More Power From Smaller Sizes I Dont See How You Can Reduce the Weight of an Alloy E Bike With a MGU Much More than the 26 KG As the Bike Has to Be made to Take The Loads on it,And Jumping etc.
This feels like looking at the first gen Sony A7 and now 10 years later every camera is mirrorless.
@@BookwormSkates question is: what brand will create the FX3 in 10 years time?
Feel like the speed test is more cadence top speed limiter, feel like the pinion might be set to low. The cadence on both at 25 it’s way to high for me
@@jacobplger4007 the high cadence requirement has always been a limitation to most mid drive motors
Once you get older and your eyes start getting worse you will want a mouse sized display. Thats around 45 to 50 years old. Probably the target market actually.
Haha very true 🤣
I suspect the Pinion is only scaling its torque with a limited sub selection of the gears, the rider gets 12 but I suspect the Motor gets 2 or 3 maybe?. Nevertheless I like the system, However Pedelec's only make sence while motor power is legally regulated and could be side stepped by 1KW + wheel mounted system's that dont need a gear set to be effective.
@@logtothebase2 I lost you at ‘I suspect…’
@@TheBikeStudio Then think on, its a bit techy but I am curious and it would affect the performance. Separate to that with big enough motor and who needs gears anyway? there is a big envelope of possibilities and requirements and all these systems could be refined significantly.
Auto shifting is much better on the cvts like the enviolo
CVT efficiency is the worst, though.
Try owuru, it’s even better
Offcourse pinion far away pinion
Rah Rah pinion MGU! until you try the Valeo Cyclee, then you find clean shifting and 130Nm of power. it's better than the pinion but is nosier than the pinion at the moment.
B.O.S.C.H. Is King..!
@@deanrwilson 🤴
The Pinion seems a bit disappointing, especially in terms of noise. I had a bike with a Pinion gearbox and thought it was OK but I still prefer a derailleur.
Pinion owned by Porsche, Who told you that ??
It is not. It was started by 2 ex-porsche engineers and was bought out by BRP 2 years ago.
@@sautez8 My mistake. Thanks for clarifying
@@benro87 Fazua is ex Porsche ingeneers not Pinion
Pinion seems like a not finished product…
Pinion SUCKS! MGU callibration failure on day one.
Sorry to hear that!