The speed loss is due to how missiles work, when fired it gets a kick up to high speed (mach 2-3 or something) by the rocket motor, but then it's flying completely ballistic ally (i.e. has no way to gain more energy), however the on board computers are continuously calculating the most efficient route to the target to ensure it conserves that precious energy. As soon as you notch and the missile looses lock it just flies in a straight glide path since it's got no other guidance commands, this means that the energy loss that's always going on due to friction is being completely wasted at this point since it's not getting the missile any closer to hitting you, on top of that it puts the missile in a bad position relative to you so that upon re-acquisition it has to make a high energy manoeuvre to get back onto an intercept path with you, this wastes even more energy and ultimately means there just isn't enough energy to chase you through any energy manoeuvres you may pull after that.
Ya I realize a lot of that, but if you watch, the re-acquisition occurs and the missile barely has to maneuver, yet it's energy is halved. I havent investigated this much further, but it looks to me like the energy loss occurs before the re-acquisition as well.
Hmmm, I see what you mean.... Not sure why that would be, unless it's just coincidental that the lock was last at around the same time the rocket motor burnt out?
Yeah, I suppose you would have to watch the missile itself to tell. It's also possible that the missile made some kind of high energy pull but sustained it for only the briefest of periods such that tac view didn't register a large enough change to be noticeable.....
Ya this is actually something a friend of mine was discussing, he said he has observed this himself within DCS external views, I just never happened to look myself.
So here we are in 2020 and I wanted to let people know, these missions he has in the description are still there and still work great. I’m trying to learn how to do this using the Hornet and then I saw this video again. Downloaded, changed the aircraft to the Hornet and instant training. Now I’m going to go through your videos to see what other missions exist because they are very helpful. Thank you very much for making this some three years ago.
I feel sad because when i checked for evading missile on yt, I didn't see this video. It's my friend who sent it to me today. Great video! Keep it up #sub
Absolutely fantastic video, you finally made me understand the principles of notching and how to perform it... no one dared to explain it so well as you did, man. Thanks
Amazing Tutorial, thanks a lot ... very clever use of split screen along with tacview, it really helps to visualize what you are trying to acomplish when manouvering your plane.
This was an amazing video my friend! I thank you a lot! It was immensely pleasant to follow. Structure was on point and you got some real skills in explaining more complicated topics. I really liked the splitscreen Tacview/Ingame approach. You helped me to get a better grasp on how BVR geometry works. I've read about all this stuff in different documents and posts from other community members, but what made this so incredibly helpful for me was the visualization of it. It is much easier to learn and understand if you can SEE what is happening instead of imagining it. You got my sub in hope to see more of this awesome content! Keep up the great work and i really appreciate the effort and work you are putting into your videos! PS: Would you mind telling me which texturepack you are using ?
Excellent video. I had read the mudmover guide, but your video helped me tremendously. In your video on F-Pole/Cranking the turn to 90 would break your own radar - I assume the initial 'notch' but then then 'crank' works here as well. Thanks again, these two videos are very helpful and well explainated!
Thanks for the great videoJabbers, new dcs player here. after numerous fails I have finally managed to notch both missiles with the Su27. Some guesswork involved in figuring out when the f15 is firing. After I did it, I was like “oh crap now I have to dogfight” onwards to the next challenge!
So awesome video, showing basically what you need to know. As pilot of Su27 in DCS myself I confirm that everything in this video is true except when you are playing vs real player the fact is that F15 pilots like to shot salvo of Aim120 and to run away from dogfights so harder to avoid and harder to catch and kill F15 on 45000ft with lots of speed going RTB.
In the last scenario for the F-15 is more complex and have to launch chaff and flares, because at this distance, the Su-27 pilots always shot an ER to make you notch and an ET after, while the ER goes nowhere, for the ET your notch is a torch in the night! :D Thats why in DCS the ET is the best russian missile in medium range. Anyway is a cool video! thanks!
That is a problem of DCS, in fact the ET was designed to have the same flight profile than the ER, in DCS drags a lot, it could be the rounded head of the IR seeker, but the ET effective range sucks compared with the manufacturer specs
Reason why the missile get slow fast, is that the most effective flight path for the missile is to fly streight in the same direction.. When the missile turn a little or "allot" then it will loose airspeed due to air recistance and the more time a missile change course during flight the shorter the range of the missile and the slower it get it cannot regain the same "high" launch speed.... Its a little bit like climbing up the ladder.. In the start its easy and goes fast, but after some time you become tired ;-) The same goes if SAM's are firing at you.. They see you as 1 target in the air, and then they fire a supersonic missile that are aimed at that 1 possition in the sky. The missile fly so fast i the start that just a slight change in direction will make it loose energy, and distance. So example if you fly at 10.000 feet and the sam fires at you, and you start to dive. Then you are forcing this very fast missile to to a sharp turn to stay on target = loosing speed and range. All in all missiles are about Energy and making them change direction to loose airspeed and distance ;-)
Thanks for the video. Very informative, and instructive. The only thing I wish is you had used a super-imposed image of the Su-27 RWR to illustrate why it is hard to notch in that aircraft. Loved your humor with the music as well. Keep 'em coming. Now I have to go and get the Tacview.
Basically its hard because it shows a light for a large number of degrees, the light at your 3 and 9 is for +- like 2.5 degrees on each side. Its not impossible just tough.
Watched this video again. And noticed your question about why it looses a ton of speed when re-acquiring. What i suspect is that it looses that speed cause it try's to correct it's flight path after re-acquiring. At that moment it's not flying the ideal flight path so it has to adjust with a hard to to it's expected point of impact. And at those ranges every turn you make is a hard turn for the missile.
Your vids are really good Jabbers I like your channel. If I may suggest something that would make it even better (only slightly) is that you could run your microphone into a compressor/limiter to iron out the peaks in volume when you speak. Just a suggestion. Again great content I really liked your video about the f-pole manouver.
Great video and great details man. Thx! Now, about the 120C..., yes, it was probably about right compared to reality (although it's all classified) as it made more sense that it can't be invincible as it also uses the same pulse-doppler radar combination and is still not an "alien" tech that won't lose you into clutter and terrain masking (this giving both the pulse and doppler modes a hard time to stay on the target), so yeah, it wasn't invincible back then when you made the video, but now, in 2.7, the 120C is almost virtually insensitive to notching and chaffing. The 120B, from my opinion, behaves more expected, while the 120C is kind of too good to be true, at least from what I believe! I mean, yes, in reality, they have upgraded the 120C-5 and -7 to be more effective in keeping a radar locked on a target in difficult conditions such as ground (clutter) and beaming, but from my opinion, it's kind of too effective in DCS.
Amazing video!!! Are you a real figther pilot??? Really the greatest explanation I´ve never seen before. Many thanks for share! Keep doing videos like this, please!
Great video. You might want to have mentioned that the missiles burn though there propellant fast and once they hit max speed they are flying on energy. Causing the missile to make hard turns and gain altitude cause it to run out of energy faster and will cause it to miss the target.
Well I did that in this video, basically it's this AIM-120 - Notch the plane, once it is pitbull notch the missile AIM-7 - Notch the plane 27-ER - Notch the plane Super 530 - Notch the plane You just need to learn your opponents
15:00 ... what I think is happening the missile is going from a lead pursuit to a direct pursuit in order to scan the airspace around your "last known location". By then the 120 has burnt through most of its energy and the sudden turn it does kills even more of it.
Once a target isn't locked by missile, it slows down to 1- preserve energy left in remaining propellant, and 2- if target is required, a sharper turn can be made for new needed trajectory, as a fast speed would take longer and more distance to turn.
I see that you mentioned that the M2000 has much more drag now. In the past, I had read that Razbam's flight model was quite unrealistic in regards to energy loss during maneuvers for a delta wing plane. Was this information correct, and if so can I assume that this has now been fixed? By the way, I really enjoyed this video and the F-Pole one and I would be glad to see more like them
This one ! Sorry Jabbers and Thanks a lot for that Brilliant tutorial, should become a DCS REF. But.. and that's not about you.... So because 4 guys cried against razbam on ED forums because a man knew a man who was in canadian army (they never had mirage !) and was told "it would maybe drag a little more", well, they FIXED it by "BLEEDING more SPEED like (than ?) IT SHOULD"..... In the Mean time we can Soar with the F15 and others, no matter....Nota: Razbam after that was so upset that since that time no more dev or fix for the M2k...Nice guys....the same one who bragg that Russians missiles perform better by ED mean...
sorry Mate but when i remember that one.....anyway....good news ! ;-) as for now, ther's so many drag that with a half load, well, that's more a 747 than .....not to mention 15mnn max on full AFB.... But once more, keep the good work ! Many people forget that it's the mid 70's "state of the art" in that part....nowadays, and all your statements are allways true, but missile / optronics /link and multiband RWR and radar (filters, Ecm etc....) have been greatly improved. Despite it's hard to find these kind of infos, we can find them...
So, against active radar missiles you notch the missile. Against missile relying on datalink from the plane or semi-active missiles which are nearly parallel to the launching plane's radar beam, you notch the plane. I'm wondering about semi-active missiles when there is a significant angle difference between the launching plane (and its illuminating radar) and the missile that receives the bounced echo. If the missile is semi-active, there may be a significant angle to the bounce from the plane to the target and the target to the missile and I'm not sure how that would affect using the Doppler effect to filter the returns with MTI.
There are 2 types of radar missiles. Semi-Active: Requires the planes radar for guidance. Active: Initially requires the planes radar for guidance but at some point goes "Pitbull" and activates it's own radar and guides itself. In DCS the following applies: For Semi-Active missiles you notch the planes radar, this requires watching your own RWR to find the position of the enemy plane and put your beam to it. For Active missiles you can notch the planes radar initially, however, when the missile goes Pitbull it is probably going to aquire you as a target, so you have to notch the missile at this point. Something to keep in mind is that if you are notched to the missile when it goes active, and there is another plane around, it may go pitbull on the wrong target. In real life, your guess is as good as mine, Im not 100% sure how the inner workings of it all work, for all i know the radar on the plane that fired the missile is just sending position updates rather then the missile processing the doppler pulse itself. Great question though, sorry I couldnt answer it.
Thanks for the reply. Bistatic radar setups do get rather complex. Does DCS (or possibly mods of it) include LPI radar, DRFM, towed decoys or rocket-powered decoys?
Well, with semi-active, the illuminating RADAR is practically in continuous-wave mode to steer the missile, so as long as it gets a reflection of *something* it'll track it. There, chaff gets quite effective, as STT can be quite easy to screw with, depending on what kind of clutter filtering is involved. Regarding MTI, I figured that didn't really work on a CW emitting RADAR, since there's no sampled pulse to compare against itself.
Damn... !!! Good, Thorough, Comprehensive Tutorial...!! DCS NOOB here...!! This makes the Dogfight encounter seem like a cerebral chess match, or a Mayweather type of surgical Azz Whupin'...!! I learned quite a bit here.. !! Stay calm and defeat the angles of attack.. !! Get into positions where even AMRAAMs aint got 💩 coming...!! I cannot wait to get up to speed...!! You basically disarmed that Flanker and mugged him...!! This is that strategic approach that will take Dat'Azz into deep waters and drown em'...!! 🧐 Good Phucking 💩 Mayen...!! 👍..😎
hmm after the spectral discussion I would have guessed that "notch" would refer to getting your plane into the spectral notch filter applied to the radar return to filter out the ground. Amounts to the same things and I don't know how you'd check but it might be interesting to explore if that is the real origin of the term.
Just to note, not all radars are pulse-doppler radars and therefore cannot be fooled by notching. I'm not aware of any modern aircraft that use any other systems due to ground clutter, but few surface-based missiles use it (eg, the fire control radar on the 9K37 Buk series is a monopulse radar).
this rocket use a one equation be given to the rocket before it gone but it disconnect with the RWR to give it a edited equation to change it's bearing and to change speed according to the equations that came of RWR ,
just to elaborate further. the reason aim 120 needs to be notched (and not the F15 when fired) it depends on whether or not it has gone pitbull. so when it goes pitbull it uses its own radar in the missile. but before that it receives course updates and correction from the Jet. DCS models the missiles much differently to real life in regards to distances as a real aim120 has much better range than it does in DCS so my dad (F-18 pilot) can't really help with the distances here. Just the theory and then the russian jets need constant course corrections along with Aim7 as they need to maintain lock the entire time from the Jet's radar which is why you need to always notch the Jets in this case
I havent played jets in DCS for quite a while now, so I wonder what happens if the F-15 breaks the lock before the 120c has gone pitbull? Will if automatically go pitbull? Whats the advantage of keeping up the lock in the F-15? Just this stealth aspect due to TWS?
+Zoddom ya it can go pitbull on its own, but it could go for another target, for instance a friendly one if there is one in the area, which has happened to me, so keeping lock is important
A small correction. A net. Radar is NOT _”dependent upon the Doppler effect.”_ Radar is simply the emission of a collimated Beam of electromagnetic radiation and then looking for a return signal, bounced off some object. The original radar had no Doppler shift measuring capability in it. Originally, radar provided fairly accurate range to the target, and a poor guess at the bearing and elevation angle. The reason for the poor bearing & elevation was poor collimation of the beam. The bearing was provided by the direction that the antenna was pointed when the return blip was received. The range was determined by the time delay between the emission of the radar pulse and its return. Originally, the velocity of the object in the direction of the radar (the radial velocity) could only be determined, poorly, by monitoring the change in range to the objects over an extended period of time. Then the radial velocity would be given by ΔR/Δt. Where: ΔR = change in range. Δt = time interval. The Doppler function was added later. This compared the frequency shift between the emitted & reflected pulse. Obviously this required extremely consistent, precise control over the emitted beam’s frequency, and extremely precise measurement of the returned beam’s frequency. Knowing these two factors gives the object’s instantaneous RADIAL speed (only) in a single contact. One of the problems with early radar was that it provided a fairly strong return from the ground. Planes would hide from the enemy by flying very low to the ground, trying to get lost in the ground clutter. Doppler Radar was later augmented to read the speed of the emitting jet, and to reject all signals that returned near this same speed, assuming that it was the ground or stationary objects. By doing this, anything that was moving faster than some minimum speed (I think it was about 40 mph with the early F/A-18s) could be easily discerned from the static background. A friend who flew Hornets out of Lamoore in the early 80s told me that the squadron had requested “traffic control authority” from the California Highway Patrol. The ground speed of cars driving the CA395 would be displayed on their HUD. If the guy was doing over 90 mph, they wanted permission to drop a sidewinder on them. Problem is, they’d wipe out their own squadron. I never met a single fighter jock who understood the concept of a “speed limit”. P.S. The movie, “Castles in the Sky”, the story of Robert Watson-Watt’s development of the first British radar, is a great & informative flick.
No *radar is **_not_** "based on doppler effect".* Radar (Direction And Ranging) is "based" on reflected signal. That reflected signal can be measured to detect doppler effect, for sure. But radar operates perfectly well //without// anything doppler related.
The countermeasures seem to work very reliably in this video compared to what I see in MP - do you feel that this is a demonstration of 'ideal scenarios', or is this pretty standard and I just suck at notching? :p I'm almost certain it's the latter, but sometimes it feels like you get it right in terms of angle and putting yourself between the missile and the ground clutter, but the missile sticks to you like the hand of god coming down for a smiting
Cms in MP is tough because of desync and latency. the missile logic runs on the shooters PC, and this their perspective to you with all net latency included is what is used to determine notching...the big thing is, get lower than they are, put them on your 3/9 line and the thing that is the most counterintuitive is to slow down, most people don't do this...the faster you go. The harder it is to get in the notch.
@@Jabbers that's a really good point, I always go full burn with them at 3 or 9 to try to bleed the missile, I'll try that out thanks :) The missile logic being on the shooter's client seems rather open to abuse, not that I've ever suspected a cheater so far
Very good explanation. I like your video a lot. But i like to note one thing. In DCS you can notch with a sky background and when flying higher then the radar. I don't know if this is realistic or that some other factors are into play here. Any thoughts on this?
Ill have to try without using chaff, I'm not sure of the inner workings of DCS, if you can notch while the sky is above you, that is probably just a limitation on the programming of the radar, and all its taking into account is speed.
Ya not sure thats realistic, I'd have to do some testing in DCS to see if thats true (not that I don't believe you, just wanna see for myself or see if something else was affecting your tests)
Great video, and thanks for the mission files. Can you explain a bit how do you transition from fighting the missiles to dog-fighting the plane? This is the phase I have the most problems with. After the second missile I know that the second plane is close to my left (or right), but going from there to actually spot the airplane is very difficult. Sometimes I see the missile trail and the RWR also helps but it's still mostly a matter of luck. Is there a better way?
I think it's mostly just experience, if you know where they are, and you were defensive, you know the angle and that they are probably higher than you, so switch to vertical scan and see if you can find them. you can even try bore sight as well. Spoting targets takes practice, but even in this video I lost track a couple times and had to check RWR and continuously scan visually. When I know the bandit direction I try for a head on merge, generally if I don't see them head on, I watch the RWR and when they disappear I know they passed me, so quick turn (not to quick, don't wanna lose that energy) and start scanning visually behind and to the direction im turning. Practice Practice Practice :) SA is hard.
The missile you notched lost its speed because first: The booster ran out, second: its fired at low altitude which means the air is more dense, and it requires more force for the missile to keep its speed up (to which it already ran out of booster), and not only that when you maneuvered, it caused the missile to redirect and lose alll that energy it was building while it was initially in flight. So it loses all its speed, (Much like an airplane in energy fighting) and pretty much just peters out until it crashes or self destructs. EDIT: The primary factors in this case was the low altitude launch. Its said in weapons manuals, by firing a missile at low altitude you essentially cut its range in half. Thats how much dense air affects missiles.
It's not the 530 missile that's hard to notch, it's the Mirage's radar. Nothing works because the enemy radar looses track, and thus the missile has no guidance. It has nothing to do with the missile per se.
I've had pretty good luck pulling up and rolling left or right to do a barrel roll while firing 2 fox 2's directly at the bandit. His missile always misses and he gets two down his throat.
idk if someone explained, but at 15:00, the missile is losing speed because its turned pretty tight. just like ur jet the missile needs energy to move around so its losing speed :)
Oh well... thats a bit disapointing^^ did they fix that bug yet? because that seems ab bit gamebreaking if u ask me :D or was that just a bug appearing that one time? (i dont have dcs yet^^)
Really interesting video, i had know idea you could disappear from the radar like that D: Just one question: in the first and second missions you had the bandit right at your six and luckily he was out of missiles by that point, what if he wasnt? You potentially end up in a bad spot with this maneuver don't you?
dixxyplays yup this is true. Turn and burn is always an option, he was over 6 miles away so I probably would have been fine burning to the closest friendly or back to safety
A top-notch video, many thanks! ;-)
well put :P
The pun is strong with this one
I just started playing DCS and I wanted to thank you for this very well done video. It explained even more than I expected.
The speed loss is due to how missiles work, when fired it gets a kick up to high speed (mach 2-3 or something) by the rocket motor, but then it's flying completely ballistic ally (i.e. has no way to gain more energy), however the on board computers are continuously calculating the most efficient route to the target to ensure it conserves that precious energy. As soon as you notch and the missile looses lock it just flies in a straight glide path since it's got no other guidance commands, this means that the energy loss that's always going on due to friction is being completely wasted at this point since it's not getting the missile any closer to hitting you, on top of that it puts the missile in a bad position relative to you so that upon re-acquisition it has to make a high energy manoeuvre to get back onto an intercept path with you, this wastes even more energy and ultimately means there just isn't enough energy to chase you through any energy manoeuvres you may pull after that.
Ya I realize a lot of that, but if you watch, the re-acquisition occurs and the missile barely has to maneuver, yet it's energy is halved. I havent investigated this much further, but it looks to me like the energy loss occurs before the re-acquisition as well.
Hmmm, I see what you mean.... Not sure why that would be, unless it's just coincidental that the lock was last at around the same time the rocket motor burnt out?
Possible, hard to tell on the tacview.
Yeah, I suppose you would have to watch the missile itself to tell. It's also possible that the missile made some kind of high energy pull but sustained it for only the briefest of periods such that tac view didn't register a large enough change to be noticeable.....
Ya this is actually something a friend of mine was discussing, he said he has observed this himself within DCS external views, I just never happened to look myself.
So here we are in 2020 and I wanted to let people know, these missions he has in the description are still there and still work great. I’m trying to learn how to do this using the Hornet and then I saw this video again. Downloaded, changed the aircraft to the Hornet and instant training. Now I’m going to go through your videos to see what other missions exist because they are very helpful. Thank you very much for making this some three years ago.
Not sure there are any other missions I completely forgot about these even, but glad they are still there and still working
I feel sad because when i checked for evading missile on yt, I didn't see this video. It's my friend who sent it to me today.
Great video! Keep it up #sub
sub x 2. amazing video!
Definitely one of the more helpful videos out there on this topic. I enjoyed the breakdown and rationale of the maneuver, it's definitely seat time.
Absolutely fantastic video, you finally made me understand the principles of notching and how to perform it... no one dared to explain it so well as you did, man. Thanks
Even though I understand this concept this video was very helpful made me relieved the importance of tacview
Amazing Tutorial, thanks a lot ... very clever use of split screen along with tacview, it really helps to visualize what you are trying to acomplish when manouvering your plane.
I misread this as "DCS Nothing Tutorial" and thought "What, is it just gonna be a video of flying around with no speech?"
Really great video! Thanks for doing this, learnt alot. So basically you can use crank or notch to scrub missiles and lose their lock.
This was an amazing video my friend! I thank you a lot!
It was immensely pleasant to follow. Structure was on point and you got some real skills in explaining more complicated topics. I really liked the splitscreen Tacview/Ingame approach.
You helped me to get a better grasp on how BVR geometry works. I've read about all this stuff in different documents and posts from other community members, but what made this so incredibly helpful for me was the visualization of it. It is much easier to learn and understand if you can SEE what is happening instead of imagining it.
You got my sub in hope to see more of this awesome content! Keep up the great work and i really appreciate the effort and work you are putting into your videos!
PS: Would you mind telling me which texturepack you are using ?
Thanks! I learn by visualization as well, so I study a lot of Tacview replays. The texture pack is Barthek GTM 10
Thanks for the quick reply! It looks gorgeous!
This is one of the best vids on the topic of notching. I had learned a great deal. Thanks for sharing
Excellent video. I had read the mudmover guide, but your video helped me tremendously. In your video on F-Pole/Cranking the turn to 90 would break your own radar - I assume the initial 'notch' but then then 'crank' works here as well. Thanks again, these two videos are very helpful and well explainated!
Thanks for the great videoJabbers, new dcs player here.
after numerous fails I have finally managed to notch both missiles with the Su27. Some guesswork involved in figuring out when the f15 is firing.
After I did it, I was like “oh crap now I have to dogfight” onwards to the next challenge!
Dude, thanks for this and the missions. New to DCS, your videos are straight what I needed.
So awesome video, showing basically what you need to know. As pilot of Su27 in DCS myself I confirm that everything in this video is true except when you are playing vs real player the fact is that F15 pilots like to shot salvo of Aim120 and to run away from dogfights so harder to avoid and harder to catch and kill F15 on 45000ft with lots of speed going RTB.
I love this kind of stuff... makes you feel like such a bad ass when you get good at it.
In the last scenario for the F-15 is more complex and have to launch chaff and flares, because at this distance, the Su-27 pilots always shot an ER to make you notch and an ET after, while the ER goes nowhere, for the ET your notch is a torch in the night! :D Thats why in DCS the ET is the best russian missile in medium range. Anyway is a cool video! thanks!
Ya, the good old, ER+ET shot, but lets be honest, ET's cant turn for shit, so from that same range, if you expect it, you will be fine.
That is a problem of DCS, in fact the ET was designed to have the same flight profile than the ER, in DCS drags a lot, it could be the rounded head of the IR seeker, but the ET effective range sucks compared with the manufacturer specs
Well, that really applies to all missiles in DCS. The 120 should have a much larger range as well.
Most awesome simulator video I've seen in a while, demonstrating a principle I'd never heard about before. Yeah, I'm getting DCS!
Super helpful video! As a helo guy who would like to figure out the fast movers, this really turned on a light bulb. Cheers!
this was the most succinct and useful video ive found to date about dcs, regarding air to air combat. Top notch *thumbs up!*
one of the best tutorials about notching!
Reason why the missile get slow fast, is that the most effective flight path for the missile is to fly streight in the same direction.. When the missile turn a little or "allot" then it will loose airspeed due to air recistance and the more time a missile change course during flight the shorter the range of the missile and the slower it get it cannot regain the same "high" launch speed.... Its a little bit like climbing up the ladder.. In the start its easy and goes fast, but after some time you become tired ;-)
The same goes if SAM's are firing at you.. They see you as 1 target in the air, and then they fire a supersonic missile that are aimed at that 1 possition in the sky. The missile fly so fast i the start that just a slight change in direction will make it loose energy, and distance.
So example if you fly at 10.000 feet and the sam fires at you, and you start to dive. Then you are forcing this very fast missile to to a sharp turn to stay on target = loosing speed and range.
All in all missiles are about Energy and making them change direction to loose airspeed and distance ;-)
Great video, very useful even after 5 years, i am just getting into DCS
This is awesome. Made a very complex subject easy to understand.
Awesome video about notching and the use of chaff - thanks!
Thanks for the video. Very informative, and instructive. The only thing I wish is you had used a super-imposed image of the Su-27 RWR to illustrate why it is hard to notch in that aircraft. Loved your humor with the music as well. Keep 'em coming. Now I have to go and get the Tacview.
Basically its hard because it shows a light for a large number of degrees, the light at your 3 and 9 is for +- like 2.5 degrees on each side. Its not impossible just tough.
These are an excellent primer for a newbie like me, thanks a lot for putting these together!
Watched this video again. And noticed your question about why it looses a ton of speed when re-acquiring. What i suspect is that it looses that speed cause it try's to correct it's flight path after re-acquiring. At that moment it's not flying the ideal flight path so it has to adjust with a hard to to it's expected point of impact. And at those ranges every turn you make is a hard turn for the missile.
It actually pulls like 13g the instant it breaks lock.
Awesome dude! Very well explained, like explaining it to a 5 years old child! More of these please! You got a new sub!
Frequencies don't change, but wavelengths... A subtle, but major difference!
Your vids are really good Jabbers I like your channel. If I may suggest something that would make it even better (only slightly) is that you could run your microphone into a compressor/limiter to iron out the peaks in volume when you speak. Just a suggestion. Again great content I really liked your video about the f-pole manouver.
+lpblewis I have a much better mic that I hope to use soon, just need to set it up and stuff should solve some of that issue, noted tho and thank!
Great video and great details man. Thx! Now, about the 120C..., yes, it was probably about right compared to reality (although it's all classified) as it made more sense that it can't be invincible as it also uses the same pulse-doppler radar combination and is still not an "alien" tech that won't lose you into clutter and terrain masking (this giving both the pulse and doppler modes a hard time to stay on the target), so yeah, it wasn't invincible back then when you made the video, but now, in 2.7, the 120C is almost virtually insensitive to notching and chaffing. The 120B, from my opinion, behaves more expected, while the 120C is kind of too good to be true, at least from what I believe! I mean, yes, in reality, they have upgraded the 120C-5 and -7 to be more effective in keeping a radar locked on a target in difficult conditions such as ground (clutter) and beaming, but from my opinion, it's kind of too effective in DCS.
"Beautiful Caucasus plains" *shows mountains*
XD
Outstanding tutorial. Thank you!
Amazing video!!!
Are you a real figther pilot???
Really the greatest explanation I´ve never seen before.
Many thanks for share!
Keep doing videos like this, please!
Thanks, not a real fighter pilot :) I do like to learn about them and their tactics tho, and always trying to get better at DCS.
Great video!!! been trying to figure out how to notch and you nailed it!!! Thanks
Great training video. Taught me a lot, thanks!
Still gold after 5,5 years!
Great explanation and great video!
even in 2021 this is an incredible video! a job well done!
Outstanding video!! Seen from both sides. Live these types of videos.
Best Notching Tutorial!
Great video. You might want to have mentioned that the missiles burn though there propellant fast and once they hit max speed they are flying on energy. Causing the missile to make hard turns and gain altitude cause it to run out of energy faster and will cause it to miss the target.
That is another defense to consider but doesn’t have to do with notching so maybe a topic for another video
Excellent explanation!
Smart munition can differentiate between the aircraft and decoys. Sudden extreme heat and direction they will ignore the chaff and flares too.
Sure but this is for DCS
Damn I'm hungry. I thought I heard you say you were going to talk about nachos and I got all excited.
Jabbers; Thank you so much for this informational video and files. Much appreciated. Keep up the good work!
Well I learnt a lot. Such good explantion. You got a new sub. Brillient video. Plz in next video teach us how to notch the plane
sniperwolfpk5 can you clarify because notching the plane is described in this video
Sorry I mean in what situation you have to notch missle or the bandit itself. Sorry for my bad english
Well I did that in this video, basically it's this
AIM-120 - Notch the plane, once it is pitbull notch the missile
AIM-7 - Notch the plane
27-ER - Notch the plane
Super 530 - Notch the plane
You just need to learn your opponents
thank you bro
I'll notch this up as another great video.
the circus music was spot on :D
Brilliant contribution. Many thanks
EEGS looks so sick on this hud.
They were notified, posted about it on twitter, Facebook, discord, pinned post here, and a youtube community post
What? :D
Blah replied to the wrong post haha sorry
15:00 ... what I think is happening the missile is going from a lead pursuit to a direct pursuit in order to scan the airspace around your "last known location". By then the 120 has burnt through most of its energy and the sudden turn it does kills even more of it.
Once a target isn't locked by missile, it slows down to 1- preserve energy left in remaining propellant, and 2- if target is required, a sharper turn can be made for new needed trajectory, as a fast speed would take longer and more distance to turn.
Not true in dcs it pulls 32g and becomes useless
@@Jabbers you asked. I answered.
Sure I found out later as well, it’s a weird bug in dcs, this video is like 1.5 years old :) but appreciate the feedback.
I see that you mentioned that the M2000 has much more drag now. In the past, I had read that Razbam's flight model was quite unrealistic in regards to energy loss during maneuvers for a delta wing plane. Was this information correct, and if so can I assume that this has now been fixed?
By the way, I really enjoyed this video and the F-Pole one and I would be glad to see more like them
Thanks! Ya the mirage bleeds speed a lot more like it should now.
Ya, its been fixed, bleeds a lot now.
This one ! Sorry Jabbers and Thanks a lot for that Brilliant tutorial, should become a DCS REF.
But.. and that's not about you.... So because 4 guys cried against razbam on ED forums because a man knew a man who was in canadian army (they never had mirage !) and was told "it would maybe drag a little more", well, they FIXED it by "BLEEDING more SPEED like (than ?) IT SHOULD".....
In the Mean time we can Soar with the F15 and others, no matter....Nota: Razbam after that was so upset that since that time no more dev or fix for the M2k...Nice guys....the same one who bragg that Russians missiles perform better by ED mean...
+Pierre LAVEpluBLANC apparently razbam had a fox for the extra drag queued up and ready to go, hopefully we see it in a release soon
sorry Mate but when i remember that one.....anyway....good news ! ;-) as for now, ther's so many drag that with a half load, well, that's more a 747 than .....not to mention 15mnn max on full AFB....
But once more, keep the good work ! Many people forget that it's the mid 70's "state of the art" in that part....nowadays, and all your statements are allways true, but missile / optronics /link and multiband RWR and radar (filters, Ecm etc....) have been greatly improved. Despite it's hard to find these kind of infos, we can find them...
Great tutorial! Thank You.
Ok, now I finally understood that i have to go 90 degrees left or right, thanks :)
Great work!! Awesome video!!!
So, against active radar missiles you notch the missile. Against missile relying on datalink from the plane or semi-active missiles which are nearly parallel to the launching plane's radar beam, you notch the plane. I'm wondering about semi-active missiles when there is a significant angle difference between the launching plane (and its illuminating radar) and the missile that receives the bounced echo. If the missile is semi-active, there may be a significant angle to the bounce from the plane to the target and the target to the missile and I'm not sure how that would affect using the Doppler effect to filter the returns with MTI.
There are 2 types of radar missiles.
Semi-Active: Requires the planes radar for guidance.
Active: Initially requires the planes radar for guidance but at some point goes "Pitbull" and activates it's own radar and guides itself.
In DCS the following applies:
For Semi-Active missiles you notch the planes radar, this requires watching your own RWR to find the position of the enemy plane and put your beam to it.
For Active missiles you can notch the planes radar initially, however, when the missile goes Pitbull it is probably going to aquire you as a target, so you have to notch the missile at this point. Something to keep in mind is that if you are notched to the missile when it goes active, and there is another plane around, it may go pitbull on the wrong target.
In real life, your guess is as good as mine, Im not 100% sure how the inner workings of it all work, for all i know the radar on the plane that fired the missile is just sending position updates rather then the missile processing the doppler pulse itself. Great question though, sorry I couldnt answer it.
Thanks for the reply. Bistatic radar setups do get rather complex.
Does DCS (or possibly mods of it) include LPI radar, DRFM, towed decoys or rocket-powered decoys?
Not that i know of, as far as i know a lot of that code is internal to DCS, so no mods for it really exist.
yeah I've always tried to notch the plane for a semi active missile but now I Watch this and think about it I'm not so sure. Interesting question.
Well, with semi-active, the illuminating RADAR is practically in continuous-wave mode to steer the missile, so as long as it gets a reflection of *something* it'll track it. There, chaff gets quite effective, as STT can be quite easy to screw with, depending on what kind of clutter filtering is involved.
Regarding MTI, I figured that didn't really work on a CW emitting RADAR, since there's no sampled pulse to compare against itself.
Damn... !!! Good, Thorough, Comprehensive Tutorial...!! DCS NOOB here...!! This makes the Dogfight encounter seem like a cerebral chess match, or a Mayweather type of surgical Azz Whupin'...!! I learned quite a bit here.. !! Stay calm and defeat the angles of attack.. !! Get into positions where even AMRAAMs aint got 💩 coming...!! I cannot wait to get up to speed...!! You basically disarmed that Flanker and mugged him...!! This is that strategic approach that will take Dat'Azz into deep waters and drown em'...!! 🧐 Good Phucking 💩 Mayen...!! 👍..😎
Very good - as the F-Pole video! I love the split screen (would be nice to have during the combat ;-) )
Notch actually refers to the notch filter used in RADARs.
Keep it up! I finally know how to defeat an AMRAAM!
hmm after the spectral discussion I would have guessed that "notch" would refer to getting your plane into the spectral notch filter applied to the radar return to filter out the ground. Amounts to the same things and I don't know how you'd check but it might be interesting to explore if that is the real origin of the term.
You are correct
May I note that, the frequency does not change but the wave length changes(Doppler effect)
Just to note, not all radars are pulse-doppler radars and therefore cannot be fooled by notching.
I'm not aware of any modern aircraft that use any other systems due to ground clutter, but few surface-based missiles use it (eg, the fire control radar on the 9K37 Buk series is a monopulse radar).
Helped a ton! Thanks!
Excellent and informative. Thanks.
Im an engineering student, this helps alot
Lovely detailed video
this rocket use a one equation be given to the rocket before it gone but it disconnect with the RWR to give it a edited equation to change it's bearing and to change speed according to the equations that came of RWR ,
just to elaborate further. the reason aim 120 needs to be notched (and not the F15 when fired) it depends on whether or not it has gone pitbull. so when it goes pitbull it uses its own radar in the missile. but before that it receives course updates and correction from the Jet. DCS models the missiles much differently to real life in regards to distances as a real aim120 has much better range than it does in DCS
so my dad (F-18 pilot) can't really help with the distances here. Just the theory
and then the russian jets need constant course corrections along with Aim7 as they need to maintain lock the entire time from the Jet's radar which is why you need to always notch the Jets in this case
I havent played jets in DCS for quite a while now, so I wonder what happens if the F-15 breaks the lock before the 120c has gone pitbull? Will if automatically go pitbull? Whats the advantage of keeping up the lock in the F-15? Just this stealth aspect due to TWS?
+Zoddom ya it can go pitbull on its own, but it could go for another target, for instance a friendly one if there is one in the area, which has happened to me, so keeping lock is important
why is DSC doing it wrong?
A small correction. A net.
Radar is NOT _”dependent upon the Doppler effect.”_
Radar is simply the emission of a collimated Beam of electromagnetic radiation and then looking for a return signal, bounced off some object.
The original radar had no Doppler shift measuring capability in it.
Originally, radar provided fairly accurate range to the target, and a poor guess at the bearing and elevation angle.
The reason for the poor bearing & elevation was poor collimation of the beam.
The bearing was provided by the direction that the antenna was pointed when the return blip was received.
The range was determined by the time delay between the emission of the radar pulse and its return.
Originally, the velocity of the object in the direction of the radar (the radial velocity) could only be determined, poorly, by monitoring the change in range to the objects over an extended period of time. Then the radial velocity would be given by ΔR/Δt.
Where:
ΔR = change in range.
Δt = time interval.
The Doppler function was added later. This compared the frequency shift between the emitted & reflected pulse.
Obviously this required extremely consistent, precise control over the emitted beam’s frequency, and extremely precise measurement of the returned beam’s frequency.
Knowing these two factors gives the object’s instantaneous RADIAL speed (only) in a single contact.
One of the problems with early radar was that it provided a fairly strong return from the ground. Planes would hide from the enemy by flying very low to the ground, trying to get lost in the ground clutter.
Doppler Radar was later augmented to read the speed of the emitting jet, and to reject all signals that returned near this same speed, assuming that it was the ground or stationary objects.
By doing this, anything that was moving faster than some minimum speed (I think it was about 40 mph with the early F/A-18s) could be easily discerned from the static background.
A friend who flew Hornets out of Lamoore in the early 80s told me that the squadron had requested “traffic control authority” from the California Highway Patrol. The ground speed of cars driving the CA395 would be displayed on their HUD. If the guy was doing over 90 mph, they wanted permission to drop a sidewinder on them.
Problem is, they’d wipe out their own squadron. I never met a single fighter jock who understood the concept of a “speed limit”.
P.S. The movie, “Castles in the Sky”, the story of Robert Watson-Watt’s development of the first British radar, is a great & informative flick.
Excelent explanation. Thank you very much.
Nice work buddy gooood job i really love your videos just keep mouving forward and dont stop
No *radar is **_not_** "based on doppler effect".* Radar (Direction And Ranging) is "based" on reflected signal.
That reflected signal can be measured to detect doppler effect, for sure. But radar operates perfectly well //without// anything doppler related.
awesome nice explanation
Big like ! This should be tought in schools
awesome video. i feel smarter everyday.
thank sir!
The countermeasures seem to work very reliably in this video compared to what I see in MP - do you feel that this is a demonstration of 'ideal scenarios', or is this pretty standard and I just suck at notching? :p
I'm almost certain it's the latter, but sometimes it feels like you get it right in terms of angle and putting yourself between the missile and the ground clutter, but the missile sticks to you like the hand of god coming down for a smiting
Cms in MP is tough because of desync and latency. the missile logic runs on the shooters PC, and this their perspective to you with all net latency included is what is used to determine notching...the big thing is, get lower than they are, put them on your 3/9 line and the thing that is the most counterintuitive is to slow down, most people don't do this...the faster you go. The harder it is to get in the notch.
@@Jabbers that's a really good point, I always go full burn with them at 3 or 9 to try to bleed the missile, I'll try that out thanks :)
The missile logic being on the shooter's client seems rather open to abuse, not that I've ever suspected a cheater so far
Beautiful
Very good explanation. I like your video a lot. But i like to note one thing. In DCS you can notch with a sky background and when flying higher then the radar. I don't know if this is realistic or that some other factors are into play here. Any thoughts on this?
Also it's more easy to notch in the Mirage then SU-27 or F-15 because of it's size.
Ill have to try without using chaff, I'm not sure of the inner workings of DCS, if you can notch while the sky is above you, that is probably just a limitation on the programming of the radar, and all its taking into account is speed.
Ya not sure thats realistic, I'd have to do some testing in DCS to see if thats true (not that I don't believe you, just wanna see for myself or see if something else was affecting your tests)
Subscribed! Great video and explanation!
sub!! epic explanation
Very nice! Thanks.
Great video, and thanks for the mission files.
Can you explain a bit how do you transition from fighting the missiles to dog-fighting the plane? This is the phase I have the most problems with. After the second missile I know that the second plane is close to my left (or right), but going from there to actually spot the airplane is very difficult. Sometimes I see the missile trail and the RWR also helps but it's still mostly a matter of luck. Is there a better way?
I think it's mostly just experience, if you know where they are, and you were defensive, you know the angle and that they are probably higher than you, so switch to vertical scan and see if you can find them. you can even try bore sight as well. Spoting targets takes practice, but even in this video I lost track a couple times and had to check RWR and continuously scan visually. When I know the bandit direction I try for a head on merge, generally if I don't see them head on, I watch the RWR and when they disappear I know they passed me, so quick turn (not to quick, don't wanna lose that energy) and start scanning visually behind and to the direction im turning. Practice Practice Practice :) SA is hard.
Thanks for the answer, much appreciated.
The missile you notched lost its speed because first: The booster ran out, second: its fired at low altitude which means the air is more dense, and it requires more force for the missile to keep its speed up (to which it already ran out of booster), and not only that when you maneuvered, it caused the missile to redirect and lose alll that energy it was building while it was initially in flight. So it loses all its speed, (Much like an airplane in energy fighting) and pretty much just peters out until it crashes or self destructs. EDIT: The primary factors in this case was the low altitude launch. Its said in weapons manuals, by firing a missile at low altitude you essentially cut its range in half. Thats how much dense air affects missiles.
Dcs actually has a guidance issue when a missile losses lock it pulls a ton of g for no reason. Plenty of tacview exists showing it
@@Jabbers oh geez, nevermind then. Yeah I can see where it lost maybe TOO much energy flying relatively straight haha
Very good explained.
Now I just need a better Computer to run DCS :)
It's not the 530 missile that's hard to notch, it's the Mirage's radar. Nothing works because the enemy radar looses track, and thus the missile has no guidance. It has nothing to do with the missile per se.
Essah ya I annotated that thx though
AWESOME VIDEO! Thank you! Do you train people?
Thanks and no I do not train people
GREAT tutorial!!
I've had pretty good luck pulling up and rolling left or right to do a barrel roll while firing 2 fox 2's directly at the bandit. His missile always misses and he gets two down his throat.
Cool
idk if someone explained, but at 15:00, the missile is losing speed because its turned pretty tight. just like ur jet the missile needs energy to move around so its losing speed :)
It's actually a bug, if you look at the G it pulls when it gets notched, it pulls like 30g... rendering it useless. (it shouldnt do this)
Oh well... thats a bit disapointing^^ did they fix that bug yet? because that seems ab bit gamebreaking if u ask me :D or was that just a bug appearing that one time? (i dont have dcs yet^^)
and nice vid btw, very helpful : )
thank you jabbers. very very good video
love it.
Thanks!
really great tutorial! Thx!
Really interesting video, i had know idea you could disappear from the radar like that D:
Just one question: in the first and second missions you had the bandit right at your six and luckily he was out of missiles by that point, what if he wasnt? You potentially end up in a bad spot with this maneuver don't you?
dixxyplays yup this is true. Turn and burn is always an option, he was over 6 miles away so I probably would have been fine burning to the closest friendly or back to safety