What Trauma does to a Primarch
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- Опубліковано 12 тра 2024
- We are trying something new, a lore video! In this video, we discuss the worst decision made in the Imperium and that is the Codex Astartes. Tell us in the comments below if this content is something you might be interested in and we will upload one of these every week, we love constructive criticism.
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Meanwhile, Space Wolves are going, "..What's a codex?"
To be fair, their recruitment process is so brutal that they're always complient with the appropriate amount of Astartes.
You won't have more then 1k marines if 99.999% of recruits don't survive and don't become wolfen, and even then, some turn into wolfen later.
The only thing the DA and space furries will agree on
Ahhhh ha ha ha ha ha ha ohhhh... *sigh* erhm
No starting fights in the comments 🤫 - Cal
Everyone forgets about the Black Templars, who gets around the whole recruitment limit by being constantly on crusade.
They may very well be of legion size now
@@the98themperoroftheholybri33 That's just fan thing. No where in BT fluff is that said.
To your point, in the old lore, the codex astartes was so controversial among the surviving loyalists that forcing everyone to be codex compliant was close to causing a second war after the horus heresy. Personally I agree that the codex astartes is flawed,I agree with your points, but further I think a problem that occurs is that by applying a standard structure/template to all the unique space marines that they must follow limits the potential of each chapter. It handicaps those chapters who excel outside those boxes. I mean each chapter were made to be unique in their own way, if big E wanted them to be the same he would have just created 20 Guillimans. However that's what guilliman has done by forcing codex compliance. I he thinks the imperium survived because of his actions, but I like to think that only ultramar has thrived because of his actions, and everyone else survived not because of it but in spite of it. The ones who ignored the codex astartes seemed to do quite well without it, just sayin.
I think hypocritical Guilliman makes for an interesting character, if y'know, he ever gets confronted with and has to deal with it. For example, he believed as Big E that humans should lead the imperium of man, but then creates the tetrarchs of ultramarine captains to replace the current rulers of ultramar because they are inefficent and become corrupt. Because space marines can't be corrupted, right? Would be interesting if that scenario turns into a badab 2.0. Guilliman being a creature of control, but making calculations on perfect ideallic scenarios that doesn't work in real life, applying control to chaos causing bigger and bigger problems. Would be interesting to see.
I think a hypocritical Guilliman CAN make for a good character. But I don't think they have ever addressed it. I don't think they ever intended it to come off that way. I think they did very well with the Lion's reintroduction.
I think your pretty spot on with what you have said here, like this line "Because space marines can't be corrupted, right?" it's just like I feel that the writing quality is so... la lang, it blows with the wind. Sometimes it's like wow, that's profound, and other times you're like, what is this hot mess. But yeah I think very good points - Cal
There was an idea that i always understood to be one of the reasonings for the foundings was to prevent any one leader from having a force capable of threating terra.
Even during the time of the legions, they seldom operated at full legion strength. Often, due to distances, they would call upon their brother legions for aid during difficult wars. So reducing an individual leader's forces to 1000 marines was seen as the compromise that would allow strong forces to deploy to meet the imperium's enemies, but no so strong that should leadership fall, they could be overcome more easily.
Chapters working together was always an idea that was intended to take on larger threats. The Badab war, while made worse by Huron's arrogance and lust for power, was also about the greater imperium failing to heed the call for assitance. Huron asked for relief/ to lower their tithe, but the larger war machine deemed his request less significant. That spark lit the fire that stoked into the War.
Loved this ... matter of fact, loved it so much that I don't wanna buy and incorporate Guilly into my army anymore
Ummm now I just feel bad 😞 - Cal
Or do I ~Sunny
That take makes Guilliman my even more favorite primarch.
Loved it. Very insightful and deep. I hadn’t considered these perspectives until now
Glad to help you delve deeper into the lore - Cal
I love that this video exists. It’s exactly what I needed today 😂. A thorough and solid psychoanalysis of my liege himself.
Hope you enjoyed it - Cal
To be fair, demonstrating that they're not the problem is pretty much necessary for his survival.
If the Custodes had a reason to stop mourning and take a more direct role, they probably would have tried exterminating the Primarchs and Space Marines.
They were absolutely the root cause of everything bad that happened so unless Robute dismantled them administratively, they would get dismantled in the conventional sense of the word
That's a totally fair point - Cal
Couple of takes here I just disagree with.
I know you said Horus wasn’t in the right headspace, which I agree with, but I felt like the insinuation kept being that he was a bad pick for warmaster which I disagree with. I fully believe that Horus was the ONLY correct choice besides not having one at all.
Then the idea that the Codex was a failure I think is absurd. The codex worked for 10k years until the literal galaxy was split in half and myths come back to life.
The codex would not have worked in the Great Crusade, and has major issues after the great rift, but it was not designed for those events. However it was designed for a galaxy dominated by an Emperorless imperium and potentially a primarchless imperium, and judging by the fact the imperium is still around after 10k years shows how effective it was. After the Crusade and the scouring there aren’t large fronts to push or battles needing 70000 marines, they have to spread out and maintain the Imperium against smaller local incursions revolts and raids. In this setting the smaller size and autonomy of chapters were ideal. If something big came up then multiple chapters can work together, this is rare and more logistically sound in the long term than having 1 legion and 1 command structure trying to manage 1/9 of the galaxy without intervening in politics. Realistically after the heresy the imperium was swatting mosquitoes not fighting peers, and would your rather have a bunch of flyswatters in every room of your house or 2 big hammers on opposite sides when you are dealing with mosquitoes.
One of its main goals was to lessen the threat that astartes could pose due to the actions of 1 individual. The highest ranking space marine turns traitor and everyone under him, how many marines revolt? 1000 a manageable number even with limited astartes assistance. But if they were still in a legion? It would be so much worse, 1 legion in the heresy was approximately 1/18 of the imperiums total astartes, after it would have been 1/9. The Badab War is a perfect example of the codex working not failing. Overall the Badab war was not an incredibly large affair. The codex didn’t want to try to stop civil wars but make marine revolts a problem for a sector not the imperium.
Lots of interesting points but a lot I disagree with as well.
You guys are "What Are You Painting Now?"
So what are you both painting now? I'm working on some termagants!
Currently some Ogryn, Jokero and other things for Black Stone Fortress and some models for Bushido - Cal
i enjoyed this new content, variety is the spice of life. Really liking the channel and the dynamic between you both.
Thank you very much for the compliment. Well we may have another go at this because there are many positive comments - Cal
This was awesome , I love your usual content but this lore video was very interesting!!!!
You made Guillie an interesting character 😅😅😅
Thanks ha ha - Cal
Great idea! Also this is why I love non-Codex "Chapters". I love my Templars!
Templars are very fun, but I think technically they comply due to the fact that they are always on crusade they aren't breaking the rules, I am not sure if the initiate system breaks the rules though... - Cal
Love this video!
Makes bobby G sound really grimdark
Glad to hear you enjoyed - Cal
your whole thesis, focusing only on Astartes, is wrong
while releasing the codex Astartes, Gilliman also limited other institutions of the Imperium in the amount of power and force, it also limits any power in military hands, it created the Astra Militarum regiments, it disbanded Solar Auxilia, it forced the imperium to divide its entire military into smaller and separate units that function autonomously but are forced to unite for larger campaigns
and in fact, the Codex works. if it hadn't been in place, more people could have been in the hands of Huron at the time of the Badab War, more Astartes could have been in the hands of any space marine chapter master who betrayed the Imperium early, but even Huron was forced not only to increase the number of Astral Claws, but also to lure other Astartes chapters to his side
Gladly all bureaucracy has it's loopholes and Black Templars were smart and/or zealous enough to take advantage of that.
During a crusade Legion can call all their brother chapters under one banner, so by announcing a eternal crusade against everything let's them keep full Legion force all the time.
There is no loophole that BT exploit, they just flagrantly disregard it. This fan theory stems from the idea that during/after crusade the gene-seed tithe sent to Terra is laxed to allow the chapter to rebuild. In the 4th edition BT codex, its said that BT have no issues with their tithe so the theory of the BT exploiting Crusade exceptions falls apart.
Great video, man, well done
Thank you very much - Cal
really liked this one. I don't know much about the lore or any changes to it, so this was quite interesting
Glad you enjoyed - Cal
Honestly a fascinating take. Great video guys 👍
Glad you enjoyed it! - Cal
The biggest mistake by GW was bringing the Primarchs into 40k, 40k is when everything what made mankind great has gone and is decaying, the Primarchs and the legions are viewed as a time of myth and legend by everyone, while in the HH setting everything is viewed through a more pragmatic and realistic lense.
And 40K primarchs are interesting because they themselves are shadows of their former glory and also can compare the current imperium to their memory of when things were good.
In my opinion, the Codex wasn't just to split up the marines so there would be no heresy. After the Horus Heresy, you didn't need legions anymore. Small forces divided across the Imperium were far better suited for its future-- at least, at the start. In 40k, there's a reason the Black Templars are so good at what they do.
Well yes but also no, or in Australian ye ye ye yeah, nah. I think them being in chapter size helped put out fires so to speak but, I think it was part of the slow degradation of Imperium - Cal
Liked it very much! Thanks!
Glad you liked it! - Cal
So, I somehow missed this video and came here from Elegiac Hero video. I had two things that came to my mind with this.
First, that you might actually be wrong about Codex Astartes being the worst decision. It very well might be the second worst decision actually though. The first decision would probably be the founding of the Imperium by the Big E. After the terror of machine uprising and what followed, the originally watchful protector decided to act on his own and hopefully make himself obsolete in the process. That argument may fall apart easily due to the fact that Emperor is not written well and is more than often inconsistent, especially after the more recent books/lore decisions.
That sort of takes me to the second point that is more on topic. I think that it is absolutely unfair to take a well written character with an understandable, albeit wrong decision (codex) and act as if a plot device to sell customers even more plastic crack is the exact same thing. That is perhaps one thing that the video is lacking - I understand not wanting to break the immersion, but in this particular case it wouldn't have been You, it would be james workshop that approached the setting with the grace and surgical precision of a sledgehammer. Of course a character wouldn't come out the same after such gentle administrations.
I don't mean it as a criticism to You or your work, I think the video was great. In fact it is perhaps the best way to approach this topic without cutting out the more crude parts of warhammer like I did. Also perhaps calling Booby G a hypocrite might be the most correct thing. It runs in the family.
Thanks you for the compliment I am glad you enjoyed even if you didn't fully agree. Which is awesome that we are getting those kinds of viewers - Cal
I am not that immersed into the lore, but I think that the new version of him kind of makes sense. Perhaps it is his need for control that makes him want to create his own legion. The codex might have just been a test run to see how he could organize his own force without having to reveal it or put any of those plans in danger.
I guess it could also be him thinking that he can do better than the emperor and create a better force that would have no chance of betraying the Imperium or something.
All I know for sure is that I love the Skaven and I wish they would be in 40k.
Best thing is the Skaven are already in the 40k universe you just know them by a different name - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Wait what? Aw man, I was hoping for some Ikkit Claw shenanigans (but in space.) I hope they get some love, though I doubt that.
@@birddispenser Nope the Skaven in the 40k are called "The Imperium of man" - Cal
Very interesting. A lot of food for thought in this one. Interested to hear your thoughts on some of the other primarchs.
Sure, this was a test run but a lot of positive commentary and we can only hope that it leads to greater success, if we get more hits we will keep going with it - Cal
Amit complained that the codex hurt the blood angels derived chapters especially when dealing with the thirst and the rage
Alpharius made Roboute do it.
Hmmm sounds too streigh forward for him - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow not if you remember that Alpharius is loyal to the Imperium...
Hey that was really good! Would love to hear a bit more about the Badab War in that style. 😀
hmmm may have to do something on it... - Cal
If I remember correctly the Codex Astartes was already being mentioned in the early novels, and from my understanding the "deeper context" of why it was written in the first place was just retconned into the Horus Heresy novels, which kind of both enriched the lore of it but at the same time creating quite a few contradictions. More like a touch up that ended in a beautiful mess of a painting (yet still beautiful nonetheless.) I could be totally wrong here though.
Fair points. One the one hand the Codex is somewhat a leash on the astartes from the micromanager general, however, the Imperium has not seen a rebellion on the scale of the Horus Heresy since the Horus Heresy, so... It sort of worked and is vindicated...
Goge Vandire, there were rebellions at scale they just had a different serpents head - Cal
I'm glad you addressed this.
Glad you enjoyed - Cal
nice take. made me think
Thanks - Cal
8:20 Incorrect, humans are more than capable of killing space marines, after all a Battle Cannon shell or Krak Missile doesn't care how much armor you're wearing, not to mention Hot-Shot Lasguns and other more specialized war gear, though it usually takes staggering losses to do so. Canonically the Munitorum estimates it takes a single Imperial Guard Infantry Platoon, 20-50 Guardsmen, to kill a single Space Marine in an advantageous position, or twice that number with PDF or a disadvantageous position, or something like a thousand fanatical or combat stimmed rabble.
While obviously the answer to whether or not Guilliman is a hypocrite is that GW are idiots, instead of just trying to resell us larger scaled space marines, they fucked their lore over because they thought they had to trick people into rebuying entire armies instead of just offering a superior product.
I enjoyed it.
Glad you enjoyed - Cal
Haha, Suckers I'm first, but that might be cause I'm a member.
Interersting take on Guilliman.
I like the idea that he can see the problem but himself is part of the problem.
The problem being Primarchs and Guilliman is all like 'Well I'm a Primarch and I'm not a problem.' but Guilliman is also a smart enough guy that that thought is followed by an 'Am I?'
What do you guys think is Guilliman part of the problem his trying to solve?
You are first 🥇 here is your metal, glad you found the take interesting - Cal
I don’t think I agree with the idea that it’s categorically a bad idea to move to chapters of 1,000. The only real failing is the friction/redundancy between chapters cause if you really needed to you could gather legion size just made up of chapters of 1,000.
That being said unless the threat is more space marines 1,000 space marines on any one planet bodies pretty much everyone.
we liked this.
Glad you enjoyed! - Cal
I like…🎉
Thank you very much - Cal
The Badab war was caused by Imperial bureaucracy.
Yes it was that doesn't mean that if they had larger chapters/legions it wouldn't be a problem - Cal
So primaris are traitors because of Guilliman?
Of course, there is also that the authors just aren't always that great! Rick Priestley never intended that the Heresy would ever be explored, and much of this is working around what was intended to be a myth of the setting. I like video though, an interesting exploration of the background, the kinda stuff I used to do back before the hobby got a bit... weird.
This. I've been a fan of the 40k lore since the mid-1980's. I got the impression from the beginning that the Horus Heresy was always intended to be only myth. However, fans over the decades clamored for Games Workshop to turn myth into story and in an interesting way. I think this is where things went off the rails for lots of reasons.
Oh yeah I am sure some of the dudes from the 80s just look at the setting and just raise an eyebrow - Cal
@@anthonysCAT There should be several interviews with Rick on youtube, and he talks about this stuff variously. I think the main reason why GW homed in on the Horus Heresy is because it gave them an easy excuse to sell multiples of the exact same model and still give people a reason why they were fighting each other, titan versus titan and space marine versus space marine.
Tell me you dont understand the aftermath of the HH and gulimans Reform at all. The point of the breakup of forces was NEVER to PREVENT another Civil war. The point was to contain it and Limit the SCALE of rebelions. Badab ilustrates that perfectly. 4+ chapers revolted and the imperium managed to defeat them with just 5 (not even full strength) chapers and additional guard Units of there own. So we went from a Revolt of HUNDREDS OF THOUSENS of Marines to a conflict including at Max 15000 Marines all together.
There are also numerouse examples if singel chapers, Regiments, Planers revolting, but cause of the codex they can't call in any Support and can be dispatched by normaly the Same if not smaler Units by the imperium. So wile the codex is fawed (as gulliman acnoledges and why he updated it), its Core idea and function, to prevent a conflict on the scale of the HH, works perfectly.
Primaris marines are the worst thing to happen to 40k lore
A lot of this is due to GW being greedy and not caring about the lore
Could be I can't say one way or the other - Cal