I am SO WITH YOU ON THIS. On the one hand, there's nothing necessarily wrong with having a villain who is physically tempting to the protagonist, even being tempting (at first) to the audience. The problem comes with modern movie writers wanting the protagonist to SIDE WITH THE HOT VILLAIN (unless the story is specifically meant to be a tragedy/fall from grace, and a clear mistake on the part of the protagonist.) I am so exhausted by the extreme dumbing down of protagonists (especially female protagonists) because "villain hot."
If we look to the Bond movies, James may find the evil female villains physically attractive. He might even have a one night stance with them. But never at any point would he ever be dumb enough to not see through their evil nature. And that contrasts with today's dumb female protagonists who falls for the evil hot guy and we are forced to believe there's goodness to a guy who just killed his dad.
@@crowsan2871 Reformation works as well! I would say, provided it's set up and followed through decently. And it doesn't have to be romantic, either. I love me a well-written redemption-arc!
People don’t want to fall in love because that requires emotional sacrifice and commitment. People want to other people to serve their needs, that make them feel/look powerful... this is why I hate those power dynamic memes in fan works. There shouldn’t even BE a “dominant” or “submissive” one in a relationship, because partners are supposed to be EQUAL! If I see one more fan fiction with the words dominant and submissive, I think I’m going to spontaneously combust. Sorry.
@@clarenceandgennymcneil251You see that a lot in BLs and that's why I'm not a fan of the genre anymore. It's just about screwed up power dynamics, omegaverse especially. I also hate whenever people twinkify a main character just to pair him up with the villain who abuses him😭all stuff I actually saw happening.
I actually think Anakin was a well-done version of the handsome Thirst trap villain because Lucas remembered that he was still going to be a villain, and Padme doesn't sacrifice her entire brain to justify the evil he ends up doing or follow him down an evil path. She loved him sure, but she hated what he's become and it is all his fault. Anakin's possessiveness, paranoia, and unwillingness to accept what he can't control is ultimately what destroyed the love they had with each other until he turns on even Padme and blames everyone else for her 'betraying' him. In the end, no one wins. Padme dies and Anakin is burned alive and lives on as a shell of a creature.
I think the setup would have worked if Anakin was a year or two older than Padme being overprotective of her. In much of Attack of the Clones, Anakin was still an emotional sensitive kid simping for Padme. Anakin doesn't become "Thirst Trap" until RoS or more accurately the Clone Wars animation where we finally see Anakin becoming a successful general. Had we seen Anakin leading battalions and battleships beforehand, the council's decision to deny him Jedi Knight would have been more dramatic.
@@inazuma3gouAnakin was a Knight already, they denied him being a Master...which he took with all of the grace of a teenager being told they can't go to a party 😑
@@inazuma3gouthe council denied him the rank of Master when he just recently defeated Dooku (which was crucial in the war effort) and managed to land a half-destroyed Star Cruiser safely on Coruscant. I think that was enough of a feat for the audience to understand the drama of him being denied that position. The two versions of the Clone Wars just reinforced it by showing us not only how great of a military commander and Jedi knight he was but also how unworthy of the title some Jedi masters were (not saying Anakin deserved to be a Master at that point, but help to understand why he felt agraviated).
Girl, YES. I agree with you all the way. This whole "I can fix him" or "He's not really all that bad" or even "He's bad but he's hawt" mentality is illogical and dangerous. Not only that, but it's creepy, wrong, and teaches horrible messages to young, naive, and impressionable girls. Yeah, it's fine to write/read a fanfic about it every now and then (it can be a guilty pleasure but nothing to strive for or desire), but for it to become so mainstream and the norm? That is serious problem.
My mom has always had very important statements about relationships. Nobody changes unless they want to. YOU cannot change a person. You can only change yourself. My parents have been married for thirty-two years. She mentioned this as most of her friends that married in the same time frame divorced. Most of them had the I Can Fix Him attitude.
@@Phantom86d I’ve been married for 10yrs. My hubby is/was a functioning alcoholic. He is a “nice guy” BUT he decided to fix himself several years ago because coping through booze wasn’t working. It took a DUI and a night in jail but he hasn’t had a drop since then and is active in AA. I support him, but I didn’t try to change him. If he hadn’t stopped when he did I was going to divorce him. He didn’t know that till after because in the end it wasn’t about him. It was about me deserving to have a relaxed life not,one filled with worry. I say all this this to say, don’t try to change others, save yourself.
I think the message of "romance/sex will cure this person of their mental or personality disorders" that often comes in the same package as this type of story is also very screwed up. A lot of these evil male love interests aren't just some rogue with an attitude who commits minor crimes but still has basic moral boundaries he won't cross. Nah. They exhibit actual signs of being low empathy and having severe issues, and they do things to directly and deliberately hurt the female character. Funnily enough, I'd be way more interested in seeing some of these guys go through psychological treatment than to see them in a badly-done romance.
Not gonna lie, I forgot that was a thing! I have seen so much "evil is good" in the pass 10 plus years that I always think of the scene from the movie Vampire in Brooklyn where the main villain turns into a preacher and starts giving a sermon to the church about how "Evil is Good", because that is all I see now days. When someone now days is truly treated like they are for real villain it tend to be the good guys now days without the "evil is good". LOL, today it's more like, "date that villain, they will make you a way better person!"
It's a cycle in literature. Fantasy went through the same anti-hero cycle in the 1990s, with the vampires becoming the good guys, and before that... sci-fi did the same thing in the 1970s as sci-fi utopia became dystopia. What happens is stories that have really good villain's, end up generating new stories where the villain's are the main characters, because that's what readers want.
As a woman who prefers healthy relationships, thank you. Modern poor writing makes us all look like immoral, weak and stupid human beings. But at the same time creators try to gaslight us into believing that main female characters are intelligent, strong and should be praised. It makes every story feel like y/n fanfic
i think your just ahead of the bell curve a major problem is that the female directors 1. don't understand what feminism is 2. hollywoods post modernism problem 3. they are midwits and arent intelligent enough to write actual relatability I say your above average because the masses seem to slurp this stuff up like ambrosia while you're adept enough to notice how stupid this is its the same people who support this garbage that herald the worst brand of feminism imaginable while not seeing the hypocrisy
A lot of these "strong" female protagonists are only strong in a superficial physical way, I've noticed. Mentally and emotionally, they're very weak. And sadly, the story often doesn't treat it like a dangerous flaw that they should grow out of.
I love your videos, and man, the amount of fanfics I saw with the plot "the beauty and the drug dealer" with lines as "He killed my family but he didn't want to do it" "I could see in his eyes he was underneath a good person" is both hilarious and depressing... So crazy that this unfortunately made their way to mainstream culture, now...
Exactly! Good girls like bad guys sure, they feel drawn to save us from ourselves, but!!! What Acolyte did was fxxking insane, if I killed my lady’s dad and all of her friends, love is out of the question, she’d try to kill me. In what realm do women feel sexually drawn to monsters?!? Stop it. Get some help lol
A world where men (or older women like the one who used to work as a personal assistant to Harvey) can treat young women this way is the world that the people who approve these projects want. This is wish fulfillment for Harvey, Jeffrey, and others like them.
@@themostbestwizard Honestly you can't turn this around on the few psychopath powerful men who exist, these books are being written and read by 99.99% women.
@@krisynthiagomez5883 Yikes! He was so evil that when he escaped from prison, he immediately got caught again because he ended the time on Earth of a 12 year old. He couldn't even NOT be that kind of creature to avoid being caught after he escaped. The thought of any woman wanting to be with him is shocking to me... and I tend to have very low expectations of people.
This kinda reminds me of some people who ship Zutara (not all, and yes I understand the appeal and if they happened to have become endgame after his redemption I wouldn’t be mad) especially after he betrayed Katara. To me, the moment he betrayed Katara definitely told me that no matter what happened afterwards, they wouldn’t be together. I mean he spent the almost the whole show hunting the Gaang, stole Katara’s necklace which meant a lot to her, betrayed her, technically helped killed Aang, then afterwards hunted them again, then suddenly had a change of heart. If she had gotten with him in the end (although I love Zuko and I love his entire arc), I would’ve been questioning the writers, because they only have 2 moments that you can argue as romantic (which it wasn’t, it was to show how they put aside their differences and bonded with one another) but other than that there was nothing. No hate to Zutara shippers though, and I don’t think anyone should hate on them either.
Personally I only really love “enemies to lovers” if the “villain” turns out to be more of a vigilante uncovering dirty secrets on the good side, flipping the script between perceived good and evil. When people take it too far and keep those truly villainous traits like narcissism and power hungriness it really is just gross.
Stockholm syndrome isn´t a thing to aspire to. It´s a maladaptive behavior which exists to makes it possible for the victim to survive a terrible, dangerous situation which could have even worse consequences than the Stockholm syndrome itself. Imagine the cruel ancient times when villages were raided and plundered and women kidnapped by the raiders. This kind of terrible, dangerous situations where it´s either death/prolonged suffering or Stockholm syndorme as a protective maladaptive mechanism.
Hey sorry to derail things but this kinda bothers me, Stockholm Syndrome is a gross over simplification of abuse dynamics and was named after an event that was less victims loving their abusers and more victims feeling the cops meant more harm towards them than the guys holding them hostage.
@@LD-tn6ff Harley Quinn and Joker from Suicide Squad was a very popular "oh so romantic and cool" thing among the teenagers. It even glamorizes Harley´s mental health issues like hearing voices (schizophrenia) as a funny and quirky thing. Daenerys and Khal Drogo in Game of Thrones. Rey and Kylo Ren to some extent, but it´s more of "I can fix him" syndrome than a classic Stockholm syndrome. Still toxic as f***.
Expectation: Make the villain hot so people would learn that good looks don't make a good person Reality: People excusing the villain's atrocity because they're hot
9:55 AND HE BLAMED HER FOR SOMETHING HE DID. The ironic thing is that Reylos who calling themselves "feminist" don't stop complain how bad Anakin and Padme's relationship is. But they forgotten one thing, Padmé met Anakin when he was good, their first romantic interactions being Anakin a young adult, it was him and Padme on Naboo, making a picnic, even Padmé introduce Anakin to her family. What Kylo and Rey first interactions are ? He kidnapping her, torture her, murdered his father in front of her, and in the second movie, once he tried to seduce her, he betrayed her, and told Hux that it was her who killed Snoke. I'mean Kylo was so coward to blame her instead of trying to defend her and create a lie which doesn't involved "his love" interest". I don't even know why Reylo is so popular, and as enemies to lovers they are the worse. Griffith and Guts from Berserk are better enemies to lovers than Kylo and Rey.
And let's not forget Anakin had positive traits that made Padme fall in love with him. He was very handsome, but also very kind, funny, and protective with a burning passion for the things he cared about and while this does come back to bite the in the butt during RotS, it shows why Padme would risk so much to be with him. That said though, I don't think their romance was supposed to be portrayed as very healthy despite them genuinely being in love. His issues with control and her growing distrust in Palpatine was already setting up conflict between the two, and with Sidious's continued manipulations of Anakin and the senate they were on a collusion course to an unhealthy marriage. I also think another good version is actually with Jacen Solo and Tenel Ka. They fell in love and even had a daughter together, but he ends up falling into the same trap as his grandfather and loses the woman he loves and never gets to see his daughter grow up.
Kylo and Rey were strictly enemies for the majority of the trilogy, they were effectively enemy soldiers to one another. Unlike...oh I don't know, Anakin who was Padme's husband when he force choked her? When he was violent towards her while she was heavily pregnant and unarmed? It's just ironic that Kylo and Rey are toxic for *checks notes* doing what enemies do...while excuses are made for the relationship where a man harms his defenseless wife. I think one of these fictional scenarios mirrors real-life domestic better than the other lol
@@gracedilawri9741 This was the perfect time to make a relationship better than Anakin and Padme, if they would go on and shipping Rey with Finn. So even if the character of Rey was not good, she could at least, having a good relationship with Finn. But what they did do? They decided listen to a fandoom which at the moment was increased in popularity and they shipping Rey with Kylo. And yes, Anakin and Padme are not the best example of a good shipping, but for me, it's very hypocrite that they critique that both were bad (especially if those critiques come from feminist community) while you put Rey and Kylo as the "maximum couple" when they are not the best example of a good shiiping either. And I've seen a lot of posts putting Anakin and Padme as the worse shipping (part of this tendency to dislike everything related to George Lucas) but they don't have any problems romantize Kylo and Rey relationship. When it's a bad relationship worse than Anakin and Padme's (and I say this as someone who likes both), for not speaking, what Reylos did to Adam Driver and his wife.
@@monicaaboites5053 All those words, and yet none of them can make your argument make sense. I never claimed that Rey and Kylo were some “maximum couple”, I simply pointed out that their canon relationship is much different than Anakin’s and Padme’s and you’re being willfully obtuse. It’s hilarious that you think that two enemies of equal strength fighting each other is morally worse than Anakin choking his pregnant wife. If it’s true that you like both ships, the least you can do is stick to the facts instead of going off on a biased tangent that demonstrates the opposite.
@@gracedilawri9741 The first, Reylo is my NOTP (which it means that I truly dislike it), sorry If you don't understand that, but when I said I like both I'mean Anakin and Padmé (both characters) not ReyLo (I dislike Kylo and Rey as a characters and as a couple). And I wouldn't have any problems with Reylo itself or their fandoom, but the point is, that Reylo's fandoom is hypocrite. At least, from the part of Spanish speakers, because I've seen several posts saying how badly Anidala is, or making fun that Anakin couldn't save Padmé, but they put their shipping as the best example of a good romance. When Reylo's are not the best example of good shipping, even as an enemies to lovers are a failure, because Rey didn't know Kylo at all, but for some reason she wants to do everything for him, without deserve it. Second, I'm perfectly aware that Anakin and Padme are not perfect, but with the new trilogy it was the perfect chance to create a health shiipping just like Han and Leia, but they didn't do it, because they decided to pay attention to Reylo fandoom (and don't tell me that Reylo was already planned since the first movie, because Rey and Finn in the first one had something) Second, I'm not saying what you clamming that Reylo is the maximum couple, but this statement is something, as I said before, I have seen so much in posts written by Reylos, and truly its really frustrating, because Reylos getting mad if you dare to critique them. Ahhh but, they have all the right to critique Anidala, clamming how badly are they
Modern Writers: Remember kids, healthy romances are boring and make you weak. Seriously, it’s NO WONDER so many marriages barely last a decade nowadays.
I'm trying to write a series where unhealthy people try to become healthy and have positive relationships; a lot of my audience feedback as been that the leads aren't erratic and toxic enough to ~ entertain ~ people. I tell them to go read Colleen Hoover and leave me to the people who want to see characters trying to grow as people.
I saw a tiktok which went "when you and your friends are all in a stable relationship and there's no drama: *visuals of the people being bored*" and I was thinking there "yall WANT drama??"
I personally never understood villain love interests. My biggest crushes were always on characters like Aragorn and Luke Skywalker, men who were inherently good. Flawed, but good. Heroism was always what I found attractive-the ability to look evil in the eyes and say, “You hold no power over me”. Seeing women figuratively “fall in love” with the male villains even after they’ve clearly done some messed up crap just feels…gross.
Man… reading your comment makes me feel quite bad about myself. As a kid my first show crush was Vlad Plasmius from Danny phantom. I loved anakin and wasn’t a fan of Luke at all. I can’t think of one example of when I was sexually or romantically intrigued by one of the heroes. And it’s really really hurt my love life as an adult. I hate myself because I always leave nice men. Makes me feel so screwed up. I cry about it sometimes. Sorry for the trauma dump 💀
I've always felt the same. Good-hearted male characters are more attractive to me. There's just nothing about selfish, villainous possessiveness that I find alluring. Even with Anakin, who's a character that still has qualities I find attractive apart from all his dark moments; it's part of why his fall from grace is so tragic, because he could've been that paragon hero if he just hadn't put himself first.
@@ladyinsect6444 I am insanely attracted to villains and anti hero’s most of the time in my media, yet I’m engaged to the sweetest teddy bear. It’s all about separating reality from fiction and fantasy. A lot of people seem to struggle with that.
Stalking and romance are dictated by how attractive you are. It's been made abundantly clear. It's never about actually thinking "This isn't good for either of us" it's 100% "They're so hot tho." I think it's hilariously ironic we live in a world where sexual content is so polarizing and attempted to be censored or cracked down on, then all shows and stories, even for kids, are pushed with sexuality in mind. And not sexuality in their orientation, in the "let's make this a future fetish for these kids" type way. It's weird at best and disgusting at worst.
The worst part is seeing the kids copying this behavior, "I didn't knew stalking was wrong, in the cartoon I'm watching the protagonist do this and it always ends well for her. 🥺".
I get the point of an attractive villain, because power is "seductive". But that only works as to tempt the hero to falter from their morals. It doesn't work with many modern villains because you should EXPECT the villain to play with the hero and it's up to the hero's strong will to resist that temptation. That's what makes the hero strong. To do things the hard, but right way rather than giving in for the simply and easy shortcuts. But no, instead the villain is sexy .... for the sake of being sexy. for the sake of romance, and getting more women to watch and consume the product. Because I know for sure these forced romances aren't getting shoved in for the male viewers.
Your post makes no sense to me. If I had to come up with JUST ONE of many potential character traits that another character would face in the "overcoming of temptation" of another, it would be lust and sexual desire. Man, you guys are so ignorant to how the real world works.
This is one of the best analyses I’ve seen on the rather disturbing trend in movies and television. It’s easy to see the amateurish writing and production, but the moral relativism evident behind them is less obvious and therefore more insidious. Writers are writing for and about themselves and their not-so-secret desires. It’s really just bad fan-fiction with big budgets. It is a sad trend but apparently one that is not gaining audiences, so there’s hope for better movies and TV to come. Excellent video. Thanks!
The appeal of villain romances is sorta like the fantasy of having a pet tiger. It will rip your face off, but in a book it’ll rip OTHER peoples faces off FOR YOU, once you gain its trust and see past its harsh violent exterior and so on
@@carlflaherty2215especially how the female body is more sexualised. Women not wearing a top is enough to make people suddenly argue that men shouldn't be allowed to be shirtless after nearly never bringing it up
When it comes down to it, it just makes the protagonist look like a terrible person. You show us a character who you say is pure and kind and fighting for justice. But then she falls in love with a genocidal psychopath without expecting so much as a redemption ark first. It makes it seem like she just doesn’t care about all the people he’s hurt or killed. Sometimes she literally doesn’t even mention them. (Even if they where her family or friends.) It just makes her seem really shallow and selfish.
This is a big reason why I started to really dislike Rey after TLJ. I found it disrespectful asf how she was acting so mushy and googly eyed w/ the guy who tortured, injured, and almost killed her "friends". I bet if Kylo hadn't died, Rey would've forced Finn, Poe, and anyone whose loved ones got killed by Kylo during the war to be nice to him and accept him into their lives. 🤢 She cared more about him than she cared about herself or any of his other victims and she never got called out on it. That was the biggest unforgivable sin for me when it came to her character
I've noticed this trend too and I've long been sick of it. I've never understood the attraction people feel toward the 'bad boy' archetype, it's not something I've ever related to; especially since the male characters I find attractive have been more along the line of flawed, yet still heroic paragons (there are people out there who apparently find this boring or generic). I knew badly behaved guys irl, and I could always tell they were scumbags on the first encounter and wanted nothing to do with them-not even be friends with them. I think it might be people confusing the Beauty and the Beast dynamic: the Beast (in the Disney version, at least) is a flawed person, but he's not a 'bad boy' archetype; in the film, _Gaston_ is the bad boy. The Beast is a person who feels hurt due to his transformation and lashes out at people out of insecurity thanks to basing his self-esteem on his appearance. He doesn't actually want to hurt or domineer anyone, he was just spoiled-a product of his environment-and has to unlearn his bad habits. This is very different than a bad boy archetype, which oftentimes doubles down on the character's worst qualities and there's no real personal growth. Edit: fixed mistake.
It seems especially ironic since strong female characters should not be seduced by villains easily. Can they be persuaded and manipulated yes, but that translates to them being seduced and fall in love with them.
I can’t think of too many female heroes who don’t ultimately end up with the bad guy in the end. Except maybe Samus Aran from Metroid. They either end up with the female or someone who’s just an outright asshole to them
"a hero would sacrifice you to save the world, but a villain would sacrifice the world to save you" is this a safe place for me to say that I think this sentence is complete bullshit? Do you REALLY believe that someone (probably insane and immoral) wouldn't use you just to fulfill his evil plan? Do you really think that you Will be THAT important?
I could not agree more. I have heard that sentence all over social media and it is truly one of the most foolish things I have ever seen. And utterly narcissistic too.
Finaly! It's so dumb. The saying should go like this. "A hero would sacrifice themselve to save the world, a villain would sacrifice you and the world for themselve."
So stalking someone is supposed to be sexy now 🤢 Nope I will pass. I tried to watch tej Acolyte but it had that same garbage. The guy murders all her friends and he's trying to seduce her and she's..... Likeing it??? THIS IS TOXIC AND PSYCHOTIC DEFINITELY NOT ROMANTIC 😔 I HATED the Rey and Kylo. HE MURDERED HIS FATHER ( WHO REY WAS LOOKING AT AS A FATHER FIGURE) AND SHES ATTRACTED TO IT??? I am SO GLAD you addressed this. I literally couldn't watch 50 shades of Grey for that same reason. An abusive relationship isn't romantic. How is this romance??? Oh wait it's not
I think it's weird. Women write and create these shows and movies with absolutely toxic men and literal PDF file teachers... after spending the past 2 decades telling men how toxic they are. Like apparently that's what gets you like a slip n slide. Cos that's what you're writing. 😂
LITERALLY! This pisses me off so much. Women complain about men being toxic but that seems to be all they fantasize about. I remember my friends in school making fun of me for refusing to watch twilight cause it was extremely toxic and ridiculous and the guys were not dreamy at all and they were all like “oh shut up they’re hot!” Same with Ezra from PLL. Everyone thought their relationship was so dreamy and went on and on about how they were “soulmates”. Women create these standards for men and then complain that they can’t find any good men.
Yep, they write men as toxic and women as girlbosses, but then have their girlbosses fall for the toxic men, which just makes the men look powerful and the women look weak and stupid. Are they trying to empower men or women here? They need to make up their minds.
Oh, the old blame the women trope. No dear, many of these writers are men who think they know what women want, but actually have no idea. But okay, blame women if it make you feel better.
@@Himmiefan twilight, 50 shades, Coleen Hoover in general, pretty little liars, all written by women for women not a man in sight. Take some responsibility for the standards that y’all have set for yourselves.
@@Himmiefan It's ironic that you're blaming men while scolding others for blaming women. Also, this discussion is largely centered around The Acolyte, which had a mostly female writers room (7 females, including the head writer, to 3 males).
I think a villain-ish romance can work if they had a Zuko from Avatar:TLA type redemption arch where they try do it on their own but obviously has to face consequences to it. The guy in Acolyte had no repercussions but Osha's father figure gets the most blame/ gets offed for making a dire mistake to protect her from what thought was a threat. 👁-👁like wtf
One thing I loved about Heathers (The movie) is that JD is clearly mentally unstable and doesn't love Veronica. The story doesn't sugarcoat their attempt at a relationship. Their relationship doesn't work, JD doesn't love Veronica but only loves the power ge has over her. When he loses this power he tries to kill her (the fake suicide scene). Even when she is having a dificult all he thinks about is himself and not her.
I have made it my mission to write healthy romances for women who recognize that thirst trap villains are bad news and want kind, caring and compassionate men of values and who recognize the value and dignity of the women in their lives. My debut novel is under consideration for publication.
One element might be a choice whether to write healthy relationships versus toxic relationships. But you can't assume writers necessarily have a level of maturity, self-awareness or skill. You could write a story that endangers women just by being inept. If you can't write a story with subtlety, then maybe you default into writing stories where abs are a substitute for personality. Maybe a particular writer lacks the skill to write 3d characters or to have a model of human interactions where someone is deformed as a consequence of their misadventures. A phrase I liked from an essay on a production of Twelfth Night was 'adult threat'. If a romantic lead is characterised as a full human being, then vulnerability isn't incongruous with threat. It's a function of it. If the other party could damage you psychologically, steal your wallet, or try and convince you pineapple on pizza is a respectable option, then the trust and the assessment of the other party's kindness or virtue might be related to knowing that a poor choice could mess you up. You're gambling your safety, long-term psychological health, and perhaps your soul.
Leslye Headland pretty much said that Qimir represents the type of freedom from societal constraints to be whoever you choose to be. You could interpret that to mean abandoning morality for toxic self-indulgence. The show promotes that as a good thing. It also reinforces the belief that bad boys get the girl because women prefer the excitement of a dangerous (abusive) relationship over one that is safe (boring) and secure (predictable).
The biggest thirst trap villains, at this time right now, are Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn. People are willing to forgive every evil act either of them do to the point of ignorance. They call them anti-heroes and echo warriors or 'bad but not evil' as they murder, manipulate and yes r@pe men to get what they want. Yet, no matter how many people Harley bludgeons to death with her hammer or bat or how many mutant Venus fly traps eat people whole or people that are poisoned, YOU'RE just being a hater. But what we really are are sufferers because we all want a good story with these characters, but it's not happening here.
I think an important difference here is that men might watch a show with Harley Quinn because she's a fun and hot character, but many men would never date a Harley Quinn. Whereas many women will literally date a psychopath / criminal. Yeah I know, some men do, not all women do, etc, but women still seem much more attracted to psychopathy than men are, in general. Your typical romance story aimed at men doesn't have a psychopathic female love interest in it, while many romance stories aimed at women do have psychopathic male love interests -- and that's reflected in the fact that women are more commonly attracted to psychopaths IRL.
@@lightworker2956 Source: I made it the fuck up lol, some women liking dark romance doesn't now prove women are attracted to psychopathy more than men. Cos 4 some reason y'all seem to assume women can't separate the fiction they consume from reality. It's kinda weird.
Dude here Surprisingly good analysis. I think there is a role for thirst traps out side of romance but not everywhere. Much like the explosion of self insert characters that feel like they have be recruiting from the b team of fanfic writers the problem with thirst traps aside from coming from the same pool of writers is they are everywhere. People like the Jungian shadow, its hot. In good (morally) character they have an integrated shadow that they can leverage as needed but is not uncheck. To be good morally you need the capacity to do wrong both in terms of temperament but also capability. Think nice versus kind. There is role for these dark romance in normal fiction (again not everywhere), especially in noir, or fiction piece that are supposed to have happy endings. It would fit in universe like a song of ice fire (game of thrones) although Sargon makes compelling case that the arc of the story demands Tolkien like victory of the Hero. I do think the the problem stems from many of these IP trying to shift there core audience (male) in the most hackneyed way possible. Also it seems like they pulled writing talent from the shipping fanfic community. Overall good essay.
I think this was an excellent analysis, and I do agree we need more morally sound and masculine heroes having healthy romances. The stuff of Princess Bride, Lord of the Rings (OG trilogy) and Disney classics. However, I vehemently disagree that thirst trap villain trope should die. First off, we really don't have stories where an unredeemed villain ends up with the girl. Practically all the examples given here are morality tests where the heroine is tempted, but ultimately decides against the romance. Acolyte (and Fight Club upon which the dynamic is based on) is kind an exception, but not really. The female protagonist herself is (or becomes) the villain. So, it's not a clearcut case of a heroine ending up with the villain. It's a villain ending up with a villain. (Note: I'm talking about movies and TV. I haven't read romantasy at all and I know the trope there works wildly differently.) The ONLY true exception I'm aware of is Hannibal and even that is more in the book ending than in the movie ending. Another is Possession (2009) where the female protagonist ends up with the villain is in the alternative cut. It's not even available on the official DVD release. In every other case either the villain is redeemed before the female protag accepts the courting (ie. Megamind, The Grinch) or it's a miserable and tragic ending to their attraction, a cautionary tale where the villain IS NOT rewarded with love by the end (Reylo, Dracula, Attack on Titan, Lexana, Raistlin/Crysania, etc.) When my sexual awakening started to happen in my preteens, I was completely mesmerised by Frollo, Gary Oldman's Dracula and the Goblin King. I WANTED to see a romance, as ill-adviced as it is form a "moral of the story" standpoint, where there could be a balance between the light of the woman and the darkness of the man. Entertainment is the only safe place to adventure with those curiosities as in real life I'm utterly put off by "bad boys". On audiovisual side of entertainment, HEA's with villain/heroine dynamic don't exist. They just don't. And until they do, I don't want the trope to die. (If someone has recs for movie/TV romances where the villain ends up happily with the female protagonist who's morally upright - please send them my way!)
Pardon me for the novel length reply. I've seriously tried to scratch that itch for a PROPER female protag/villain ending up with HEA and have failed in that pursuit for 30 years.
Oh, and I should maybe elaborate. I'm aware there's crime thrillers that probably break the apologue rule (Basic Instinct comes to mind, and probably that awful movie series where the crime drug lord boss keeps calling the woman he kidnaps a "baby"), but I have zero interest in drug/crime/motorbike gang stories. So, I might have a big blind spot there what comes to the heroine/villain HEA trope.
OK KO’s Professor Venomous. Obsessed with gaining power. Faked his death, traumatizing his crew, making one of his teammates carry the blame for years, and leaving his partner having to raise their son all alone. Directs his unhealthy obsession to selling inventions to evil people. Money hungry Betrays his next partner Emotionally and physically abuses his son once they meet again and shows zero remorse toward his first partner when she sees him again. And yet the fandom barely brings these up because he’s physically and verbally attractive
Really feel like it says a lot about people if they are attracted to a brutal murderer either because they are attractive looking or the show or movie shows them in either little or no clothing.
It says a lot about women. Shows how evil and corrupt they are. Yet society still tries to convince us that women are morally superior to men. They forget that most women sell their bodies for material gain.
Modern female standards. They claim to want a good guy but there’s none available but really they have ridiculous physical and status related standards.
@@carlflaherty2215 you do see some of the ships Han used when trying to find the Falcon in the "galaxy fleet," and the first two seasons of Mando were good. That being said, even if you checked out after the first six you wouldn't be missing too much.
I struggle liking most media characters, but i love villains because they're more interesting (not all ofc). Heroes are boring and bland, constant whining over nothing, tired and boring moral dilemmas, overreacting over past mistakes, etc. The end result is always marriage, kids, dirty dishes and laundry. Villains offer something else. What is wrong with wanting power and a power fantasy? Men can have that, but not others?
There's nothing wrong with wanting to have power as long as it benefits other people. But there is a danger of becoming power hungry and wanting everything for yourself. In fictional stories, but also in real life, too much power usually corrupts. I hope you understood my point.
Thirst trap villains are there because women are naturally attracted to the archetype; making them a villain also makes the man at fault for the relationship not working out. Peak modern feminism.
Blaming feminism shows that you look down on women. Tell us you know nothing about women and blame them for all your issues without telling us you know nothing about women and blame them for all your issues.
BDSM community member here! I wanna say (And I'm sure many agree with me) Fifty Shades is NOT BDSM. It is abuse. BDSM is about causing pleasure. A submissive who loves pain and a dominant who loves causing it (While knowing they're pleasuring their love interest). Anastasia is NOT a submissive. And BDSM is a completely healthy activity so long as it's being done by two enthusiastically consenting parties. I HATE the fifty shades books so much. They are a complete misportrayal of BDSM. Sorry for my rant.
Can you imagine current Disney coming out with an animated feature like The Hunchback of Notre Dame nowadays? That would never happen. Wow, do I miss the '90s. As for the male protagonists of trilogies such as Fifty Shades and 365 Days, for instance, they're now considered "misunderstood" eye candy while the female leads are deemed strong women by exploring their sexual desires with no societal restrictions...
I suspect another reason for these is simply marketing. Women, despite all the feminism, me too and general misandry, tend to still be attracted to strong, masculine men, however, in the girlboss era, we can't have strong masculine heroes anymore, since men must either be belittled, made jokes of or feminised to the point of insanity (the acolyte certainly did this). Villains however are perfect for female fantasies, no "problematic", tropes of a female character being rescued by a hero, since the female character "chooses", to follow him (got to have that agency), and of course we can go right on preaching the evils of men and "toxic masculinity", not to mention the nihilistic mantra of empowerment. And the best bit? We still get hot men for women to lust over, and for the empowered girlboss heroin to swoon in the arms of, too. Its win win, well accept for men, morality and society! but who cares about those things.
Good comment. Modern feminists want to be their own hero and save themselves. In their minds they are still in control being “choosing” the villain when they aren’t in control and look like idiots. I’ve noticed that when “they can’t change” the villain they’ll still blame the villain aka the man and not take any accountability for themselves
I like some of your arguments, but I don't think all of your examples were chosen well. Thirst trap villains are only a problem, if the heroine actually gives in and being with them becomes the "happy" ending of the story. Examples like Shadow and Bone or Rings of Power (not arguing about anything else in these stories, just focusing on this one aspect) are very different, because the heroines manages to overcome temptation and defie the villain in the end. They are the opposite of your other examples. Overcoming obstacles, being tempted and resisting it is not bad writing and can work very well to develop and grow a character. I also think it would have been interesting if you had incorporated some examples of men being tempted by female villains, which is a much older trope that follows a similar structure.
Yes, great points. It's rare that the heroine chooses the truly evil villain. When she does choose him, it's usually because he went on his own journey of redemption and is a changed man worthy of her love by the end.
A story is always a manifestation of the writer's psychology. The examples being analysed here sound like the work of immature, envious, resentful narcissists. What a time to be alive.
Characters that know how to weaponize themselves to get what they want are intriguing but thirst trap shi is like showing some super important backstory and than not expanding on it. Like it's just introduced to flirt with the idea without expanding on it.
3:05 Do you realize that you just affirmed the toxic Nice Guy™ mentality, in which men are *owed* the sexual favors of a woman if he's done enough nice things (by his calculation) for her?
If you look at it outside of the context of the plot of the movie then I can see your point. In the context of the film Jasmine is in love with him too so yeah it would be quite the rug pull if it were to turn out the opposite way.
Love doesn't change or improve awful people, 99% of the time. Whether it's platonic, or romantic. And if you think your situation is gonna be that 1%, you're probably just being desperate and delusional. Or terribly optimistic, at the least.
THANK YOU for finally putting this into words! It's so frustrating to see capable female characters so easily fall for attractive villains. It's almost offensive because strong female protagonists are a good thing that an un-needed romance ruins so easily
Despite how bad they are exicuted and done. I don't fully hate "Thirst trap villains" because they do serve a narrative purpose. They are meant to challenge the hero not physically but mentally and psychology. They challenge the heroines morality and ideals by making her question them. They also try to temp her with her dark desires of passion, wealth, status and power. These villains are meant to pose challenges to overcome and NOT BE LOVE INTEREST. But modern female writers don't get that MO and try to pass these villains as "misunderstood heroes" that deserve love and redemption. That's what's wrong with these Characters .
It's also about - you can't have upstanding, "run through the fire for their lady", strong male lead kind of guy. Nope he has to be weak or a sexy villain and the female has to constantly berate him because if not - then that's patriarchy and she don't need no man, she can save herself!!!! and all the other narcissistic, power grab ideology talking points that are prevalent. The sacrifice of the male hero or lead, no matter how honorable, will always be looked as toxic through their lens.
theres nothing wrong with Thirst trap as long as people are aware that is what is going on, I dont think its that different from a femme fatale (FF) in a noir movie where the FF ends up as part of the antagonists and not really a romantic interest
The problem is one side takes it a bit too seriously. A man will have fantasies and fun with the bad girl, but will ultimately marry the good girl. Women have fantasies and fun with the bad boy and then go off and marry said bad girl and when it all goes wrong blame all men for it. Men understand that it’s a fantasy, women take it as a fact that that’s how the real world works.
@@Linklex7 I'm not sure I agree with that, in my experience I'd say man marry bad girls all the time, and I know a few girls that played around a lot with "bad boys" and went on to marry suckers or ""good boys"", actually now that I think about it, I think boys and girls are pretty much the same, selfish people use others and discard them as they see fit, honest people are either taken advantage of or they get lucky and get another honest person.
@@sugarzblossom8168 yeah, it makes me think of the old Anita Sarkeesian's videos where she had the worst possible interpratation of the stuff she considered "problematic"
@@cjr1382 I beg y'all to stop viewing human relationships through the movie tropes y'all see, or what social media slop you're watching & actually touch grass. This is what feminists mean when they say y'all don't see women as multifaceted human being. No way bro just implied women can't separate reality from fiction lol.
It’s literally everywhere, it’s invaded every single fantasy book out there at the moment. I’ve just read the Ever King and the female protagonist literally falls in love with the guy who invades her home and kidnaps her, taking her away from everyone she cares about. She has a few days of hating him, and then falls madly in love with him?? Like girl?? He literally kidnapped you, just because he’s a hot pirate you’ve abandoned your whole life from before??
SOMEONE FINALLY PUT IT INTO WORDS!!! I am so pissed with this kind of villain, it irks me and makes me never want to go back to a specific story. It's maybe even worse when this trope is paired with the "enemy to lovers" dynamic. I can understand being physically attracted by someone, but if that someone is a douchebag who has killed your family/always hated and disrespected you/tried to kill you/commited genocide and just happens to be hot, rich and powerful, is still a monster douchebag who has to be stopped, not fawn over.
the acolyte ending is the answer to jay (jay from redlettermedia)'s jokingly wanting for a "ruling together, no lightside no darkside" because disney have no backbone and creativity
Watching this reminded me of two scenes from The 1980s Star Wars parody Spaceballs. The scene where Dark helmet (Rick Moranis) is playing with his Space action figure dolls. The other scene is where Dark Helmet tells Lone Starr (Bill Pullman) that “ Evil will always triumph because good is dumb”.
I argued that stories never outgrew the myth of a woman waiting for a prince to save her, but now instead of a good prince we wait for a dark prince, but a prince nonetheless. Bothers me that the man is always the holder of this "secret knowledge", this "different view" and he is willing to share it with the naive female protagonist who's in her journey of self-knowledge. He'll guide her in this part of her life, he'll teach her how to be her true self, he'll save her from her tower (the boredom of a puritan-coded life, or perhaps her poverty if he is rich). Honestly? Ugh! That's why I enjoy Vin from Mistborn stabbing Zane to death after he had invited her to run away with him because “they were equals”. Or Tress who subverts the genre by going to save the boy she loves from the evil sorceress.
I'm surprised no one brings up thirst trap characters who are female. Theres been several and frankly they are just ignored now... Thirst trap villains can work in the hands of a writer who knows how to write the 'seducing and manipulating snake' trope. Writers must do these things to write thirst trap villain: - Do not under any circumstances have the villain be redeemed by mc, these manipulating snakes are already set in their ways. - Do not subvert the villains lack of morals. - Do not have the villain fall in love with mc, they are using mc to further their own goals, love and attraction are just tools to them. - There must be a time in the story where the mc is of no use to the thirst trap and is betrayed by them.
Thirst trap females are the jezebel/Madonna-ho complex/vamp trope. Writers like the one who made this video tend to despise that trope. Jezebel trope will gain uproar and backlash while this trope will be hidden in plain sight.
Seductive female who leads the male heroes to the wrong end? That’s probably as old as “women being blamed for every bad thing”. I’m not familiar, however, of examples where the male hero falling for the seductive villainess was seen as a good thing. Most of the time, the hero was shown to finally overcome the seductress. Or, if the hero do succumb to the seductress and cannot finish his destiny, it’s usually seen as a bad thing. Even history has a lot of examples of “good men turned away from their purpose/job by pretty women”. Cleopatra blamed for bewitching Mark Anthony, for example. How can someone who holds half of the Roman world and was Caesar’s right hand man fall so low? The answer according to some Roman writers back then: Cleopatra.
I think some women like a powerful male villain: 1) he's typically hot (no explanation there), 2) very powerful (women want to feel secure), 3) have a miss understood heart of gold (who is seen as an outcast because of society rather than his actions and that he would still be caring to her and the people he cares about), 3) be specifically nice to main girl love interest and get into fights (similar to the 1st and 2nd point, he is only kind to her and a select few people and selfishly fight for her), & 4) they could be “fixed” and he would sacrifice everything for her (girls want the man to be so in love with them that they will dramatically change for their love interests and girls want, for better or for worse, to be so close and special that they can have more impact on him and still have the fairytale dream). I admit the last one was a little strange, but I think when some girls feel they're not feeling special and that want to feel like they matter to someone else. 5) Bad boys are like forbidden fruit, like Edward says he can't no to Bella that he can't resist her and risk losing control and she wants him because she likes the idea of the undead and having something different to their lives. Also with mob bosses, gangsters, CEO, etc, they are often thrillseekers, reckless, criminals, and feeling untouchable. To put it simply, girls like fantasy, forbidden fruit, and being so special that they can attract a powerful and hot villain and change him.
And why is never an overweight, hairy man ? Where is the all body image positivity acceptance, all welcome nonsense ?And why are they sexualizing males while anything making females sexy is forbidden these days ? Where's the moral from these Twitter users, Writers, Actors etc ?
Honestly, it's really hard to find a good male love interest. I think the reason the villain as the love interest is because it's the final evolution of an adult bad boy. Even in romance stories the guys who are the good guys are arrogant assholes. I think it's the honesty that you get from the villain, hey I'm the bad guy but I'll have a soft spot for you. Instead of the good guy who's a dick and never believes he's wrong and won't apologize.
So long as the writers don’t make it as a good thing. It’s been done and has been written. The issue today is that all the issues are sidelined and ignored or even seen as “good” because the persons hot.
I'm part of the demographic that understands the allure behind characters like these, however I draw the line with the blatant promotion of these as "romantic." To me at least, what I find fascinating in these types of fiction is the manipulation that they do to each other. It's all mind-games. There's passion yes, and they _might_ conflate with however much they feel for the other with love, but it's never true love. The tragedy and the knowledge of inevitable downfall of their "relationship" is what makes it good to me. This isn't romance, this is psychological thriller.
365 Days: What the actual Hell? I'd never even heard of that book/movie, but, seriously, what the heck? ...Anyways, in light of the on the existence and apparent success of books like that and Twilight and such, I brook no criticism of traditional male fantasies in modern fiction...
I just think is funny how whenever they make a thrist trap villain, he's usually ugly, Kailoren trying to make him sexy to Rey was so out of place, and this discount Kailoren in the Acolyte was another ugly washed up looking guy who I didn't care to see let alone with clothes off. Now Jamie Dornan or Henry Cavill, now there's a thirstrap villain I can get behind.
I have a theory the not very conventionally attractive thirst traps are specifically aimed at insecure, therefore easy to be manipulated girls/women. Someone like Cavill is so out of their league and they know it they are more attracted to someone who is more normal-looking because their subconsciousness perceives this type as more accessible.
Believe it or not, men also grow up thinking about romance. We dream about finding a beautiful princess, and about being her hero and provider. Unfortunately, once we grow up, we begin to realize that most women aren't interested in the good guy. Women want a bad guy who also looks good.
Women don't need bad guys, they need a STRONG men that does not care about her opinions. But society is teaching the good guys to be weak, so women turn to the only strong men left. Women runs towards STRONG men, the bad guys attraction is only because of what society did to the good men. The "internet narrative" is mistaken on this. When I became strong (leaving the girls immediately if she bother's me, physically strong, following only my own opinion, no simping, etc) I immediately had A LOT of girls, too many girls I would dare say. Once you live it yourself, you never go back.
Interesting video and very good points. I’ve noticed this as well and it’s annoying. It does make the female hero look shallow. It also pushes the narrative that if you’re good looking your crimes aren’t as bad. People are willing to show leniency if a man or woman is attractive. So this type of thing actually happens in the real world.
I don't think I get it, from what I hear I feel like your talking more about bad writing then the villain x hero trope. If anything this feels like writers believe the only way to tempt the female lead to "the dark side " is to use a attractive villain and to me that makes the lead feel hollow and flat. Even the examples you used, none of them are good examples of love Aladdin has it's problems it has been so long since I've last watched The hunchback of Notre dame that I don't think I should talk about it. The best example I can come up with is disney's Tangled and the Flynn isn't even the main bad guy he's just a petty thief. But all the others are very problematic not because of the trope but for how it's written, none of use would ever be in the Mc shoes and fall in love these are very traumatic situations. Sorry for the rambling just feel like the "finger" isn't being pointed at the right thing.
The joke about going to the dark side, because they have cake taken to the extreme. I am not against an attractive villian/ morally gray character, but it's never done well anymore either they stay bad or their redemption is just superficial.
How about a better title we need more thirst trap villains that can't be fixed because hot villains have and always will exist deal with it, Dracula used his charm to turn women into vampires and that was a book written in the 1800s you don't see this kind of hate with femme fatales it's always with male villains hmm I wonder why
Different people like different things. Saying something shouldn’t exist just because it’s not for you is pretentious and narrow minded. I wouldn’t say the things I dislike shouldn’t exist unless they actually harm people in real life. Saying hot villains in fiction harm people in real life is theoretical and imaginary.
I actually didn't know what kind of channel this was. After reading the comments I decided to look at what your other videos are like and I was right about my feelings
If you want truly honest answers to your questions, I highly recommend you watch/listen to ContraPoints's latest video about the Twilight series. It's 4 hours lol, but I've listened to like 5 times it's so good. To summarize her video, she explains that in our real world patriarchy, women can't take power from powerful men and become powerful ourselves. The fantasy exists bc the powerless woman can seduce a powerful man into devoting himself to her, which, by proxy, gives her power. She has no control over the real world, so she has no agency. But she can control him in the bedroom, so her agency becomes making him submit to her love. I don't like this fantasy, but I understand why other women do 🤷🏼♀️
It is weird that the same organisation who used to tell tales of young meeting a noble warrior to fall in love with "make their own lives complete" thinks that their modern, feminist message should be about young women meeting an untrustworthy psychopathic killer to fall in love with and redeem to "make their own lives complete". I don't see that as progress - more like an instruction manual for leaving yourself open to mental, physical and sexual abuse.
A related topic is the stories with women falling for monstrous humanoid creatures. Like in the film The shape of water. I've later learned there is a whole genre of literature of that. Truly bizarre.
I absolutely agree with you and one thing that I always notice with these villainous characters they are handsome and the female character just without a reason fell in love with them and disregard their villainous actions and their behavior which doesn't go same with the characters like Jafar and Judge Claude Frolo because they were written with the intention to make them a villain not a love interest for the female character and the fact that they are creepy old men, they are filled with lust for the female character that makes us filled with disgust and that's what I want and also I'm also writing a book myself with a female protagonist who's a detective and solving a case where there is a psychopath who is a serial killer who kills woman but his killings are not normal it is very brutal to the point that even the police and others get shocked at how grotesquely he murdered those women so I made this story with the intention to explore this theme of don't judge a book by it's cover because I made my villain on twist villain concept but he's not just ordinary one he is very conventionally handsome and also the fact that he pretends to be a gentleman and overall an aloof good guy towards everyone but in the inside he is not what he is and this theme I want to explore and same with my female protagonist who is also conflicted with this and I love female characters who are well written yet intelligent and strong and flawed and that is what my female protagonist is going to be and the fact that the villain not just only do this horrible crimes but also secretly stalks and invades in the female lead's personal space and lust after her, well this is the initial concept of the story for me it is going to take a lot of time to make it more complex with a lot of twists and characters involving in the story but yeah this is my initial idea of my book but also to know that with my female lead she's not going to solve this case all alone other characters are also going to come which she will take help of one involving a woman who has some connections with the villain and also a police officer also helping her too so this is my plan. (Also I will not mention that my villain who he is and what work does he does besides that he is obviously a serial killer but he has a connection with a female lead too not that close but in a different way so yeah)
What about Magneto from X-Men 97? He falls into this trope too since Beau De Mayo, the former show runner, made Magneto the hero of this show despite the fact that his main goal is to make humanity bow before the mutant race and is one of the few reasons why humans hate mutants. Worst of all, Beau De Mayo made Magneto act like a teenager being a dick towards Gambit and screwing around with Rogue just to rub it in his face, because Beau De Mayo hates Gambit for some reasons. And there's the part where Magneto acted selfish when Jubilee wanted the X-men to celebrate her 18th birthday by talking about his backstory. Worst of all, he and Rogue have one of the worst romances in the show which started off as grooming since Rogue was a teenager when she joined the Brotherhood and Magneto was old enough to be her granddad. Thankfully I'm not the only one who thought that Magneto x Rogue was the worst part of X-Men 97. I just hope that season 2 breaks them up for good.
Huh. The whole thing about villains is that they are attractive. Tempting you with promises of riches or affection. Not for nothing but to me , Hannibal Lecter is the sexiest man, ever. So what if eats people? He is erudite,,classy, self aware, polite, intelligent, eager to teach and inform, cultured an excellent cook. And according to Clarice Starling, he has the wiry build of a ballet dancer, deep maroon eyes and a sonorous voice... What is not to like. If somebody wrongs you or behaves otherwise rudely to you; Hubby Hanninal will take care of it. He won't even make you join him for that particular 'meal'. He is the best. And when Anthony Hopkins played him in Silence of the Lambs...woooh😅! I think people are just more comfortable talking about the things they hate. Never seen the Acolyte but the Internet really hates it😂
8:04 >movies like this are going to set genuine feminism back >every example given written or co-written by a woman. lol, ok. Seems like thirst traps were the objective of feminism all along.
I've always loved romantic love stories when I was small, especially the ones in animated movies like Anastasia and Mulan. Still, i also enjoy the Acolyte "enemies to lovers". Qimir is not really an enemy to Osha, at the end of the series she's the one who decides to side with him. He did not manipulate her. He simply showed her how rotten the Jedi around her were. How many lies they told her and how she could never feel accepted amongst them. I personally would not compare Qimir to Jafar or to the 365 days guy. Qimir is a grey character, he's not the main villain of the story. And they didn't even kiss once, they had insane chesmitry but that's it.
Not to be that guy, but I think feminists who went all in on disparaging everything about boys' hobbies could have tried using a fraction of that energy to look at what ACTUALLY influences late-teen/young adult women. Not that teenagers arent being influenced but the teen years is usually when people are most rebellious/stubborn so trying to tell them these things are bad might just make them cling to them more. To make matters worth, a prominent voice in Feminism disparaged the very idea of Rescue Romances. Claiming the heroic male is "just as toxic" as the villain who kidnaps the woman and they are just playing "ball" with an objectified woman... which has to be the most alien way i have ever seen anyone interpret basic stories like Mario or Zelda games because Mario and Link are fighting for their respective princesses' freedoms... not to keep them prisoner for themselves... Regardless of whether or not one thinks she deserves her place as a prominent feminist voice or not(or is even a "true" feminist) the fact remains she has managed to influence a lot of cultural output over the last decade. So what are these good, progressive authors left to do but pair the female lead with the villain? Afterall, it is progressive to not blame people for their own evil choices but society that clearly "forced" them into such. As it stands, those bad romances only grew in popularity and influence. Then Hollywood(and other media) have made baffling decisions to hire those authors for all kinds of movies/TV shows where their bad romance novel stylings simply do not fit. My hypothesis is that much like being a hero and saving the day is :male fantasy", changing another human being that drastically is a "female power fantasy". And while I am not against any power fantasies in general, i think there may be a correlation between women who have unhealthy obsession with such "villain romances" and choosing such terrible partners IRL... or as I have come to call it "Choosing the Bear and thinking it will change to a man for //you//" and that is a good observation, That feminist i mentioned did have a lot of vitriol for women who choose to stay at home and be mothers, seeing them as "enemies" of progress. So a natural progression of this idea would be encouraging women not to seek love and family, but power and prestige.
I am SO WITH YOU ON THIS. On the one hand, there's nothing necessarily wrong with having a villain who is physically tempting to the protagonist, even being tempting (at first) to the audience. The problem comes with modern movie writers wanting the protagonist to SIDE WITH THE HOT VILLAIN (unless the story is specifically meant to be a tragedy/fall from grace, and a clear mistake on the part of the protagonist.) I am so exhausted by the extreme dumbing down of protagonists (especially female protagonists) because "villain hot."
Amen😢
If we look to the Bond movies, James may find the evil female villains physically attractive. He might even have a one night stance with them. But never at any point would he ever be dumb enough to not see through their evil nature. And that contrasts with today's dumb female protagonists who falls for the evil hot guy and we are forced to believe there's goodness to a guy who just killed his dad.
Or maybe when the villain tries to reform and then the villain and hero get together at the end...
OR if its angst. I love angst
@@inazuma3gou Evil Villain Boyfriend: *commits genocide without regrets.* Stupid Female Protagonist: I can fix him!
@@crowsan2871 Reformation works as well! I would say, provided it's set up and followed through decently. And it doesn't have to be romantic, either. I love me a well-written redemption-arc!
"Power has taken the place of love."
This is so true for the last 15 years in entertainment media.
People don’t want to fall in love because that requires emotional sacrifice and commitment. People want to other people to serve their needs, that make them feel/look powerful... this is why I hate those power dynamic memes in fan works. There shouldn’t even BE a “dominant” or “submissive” one in a relationship, because partners are supposed to be EQUAL!
If I see one more fan fiction with the words dominant and submissive, I think I’m going to spontaneously combust.
Sorry.
giving “if i cant have love i want power”
@@clarenceandgennymcneil251You see that a lot in BLs and that's why I'm not a fan of the genre anymore.
It's just about screwed up power dynamics, omegaverse especially.
I also hate whenever people twinkify a main character just to pair him up with the villain who abuses him😭all stuff I actually saw happening.
so cute you think its only been like tha for last 15 years lol
It's taken over leftist politics as well. Love of country has been replaced by love of power.
I actually think Anakin was a well-done version of the handsome Thirst trap villain because Lucas remembered that he was still going to be a villain, and Padme doesn't sacrifice her entire brain to justify the evil he ends up doing or follow him down an evil path. She loved him sure, but she hated what he's become and it is all his fault. Anakin's possessiveness, paranoia, and unwillingness to accept what he can't control is ultimately what destroyed the love they had with each other until he turns on even Padme and blames everyone else for her 'betraying' him.
In the end, no one wins. Padme dies and Anakin is burned alive and lives on as a shell of a creature.
I think the setup would have worked if Anakin was a year or two older than Padme being overprotective of her. In much of Attack of the Clones, Anakin was still an emotional sensitive kid simping for Padme. Anakin doesn't become "Thirst Trap" until RoS or more accurately the Clone Wars animation where we finally see Anakin becoming a successful general.
Had we seen Anakin leading battalions and battleships beforehand, the council's decision to deny him Jedi Knight would have been more dramatic.
@@inazuma3gouAnakin was a Knight already, they denied him being a Master...which he took with all of the grace of a teenager being told they can't go to a party 😑
@@WinterLady87 That's what I meant =P Master
@inazuma3gou Hey, Leia and Han have 10 year gap and wouldn't get married until years later.
@@inazuma3gouthe council denied him the rank of Master when he just recently defeated Dooku (which was crucial in the war effort) and managed to land a half-destroyed Star Cruiser safely on Coruscant. I think that was enough of a feat for the audience to understand the drama of him being denied that position. The two versions of the Clone Wars just reinforced it by showing us not only how great of a military commander and Jedi knight he was but also how unworthy of the title some Jedi masters were (not saying Anakin deserved to be a Master at that point, but help to understand why he felt agraviated).
Girl, YES. I agree with you all the way. This whole "I can fix him" or "He's not really all that bad" or even "He's bad but he's hawt" mentality is illogical and dangerous. Not only that, but it's creepy, wrong, and teaches horrible messages to young, naive, and impressionable girls. Yeah, it's fine to write/read a fanfic about it every now and then (it can be a guilty pleasure but nothing to strive for or desire), but for it to become so mainstream and the norm? That is serious problem.
My mom has always had very important statements about relationships.
Nobody changes unless they want to.
YOU cannot change a person.
You can only change yourself.
My parents have been married for thirty-two years. She mentioned this as most of her friends that married in the same time frame divorced. Most of them had the I Can Fix Him attitude.
@@Phantom86d I’ve been married for 10yrs. My hubby is/was a functioning alcoholic. He is a “nice guy” BUT he decided to fix himself several years ago because coping through booze wasn’t working. It took a DUI and a night in jail but he hasn’t had a drop since then and is active in AA. I support him, but I didn’t try to change him. If he hadn’t stopped when he did I was going to divorce him. He didn’t know that till after because in the end it wasn’t about him. It was about me deserving to have a relaxed life not,one filled with worry. I say all this this to say, don’t try to change others, save yourself.
I think the message of "romance/sex will cure this person of their mental or personality disorders" that often comes in the same package as this type of story is also very screwed up.
A lot of these evil male love interests aren't just some rogue with an attitude who commits minor crimes but still has basic moral boundaries he won't cross. Nah. They exhibit actual signs of being low empathy and having severe issues, and they do things to directly and deliberately hurt the female character.
Funnily enough, I'd be way more interested in seeing some of these guys go through psychological treatment than to see them in a badly-done romance.
Let's not forget the icky he's not a good guy but he's good to me trope
I miss the days when villain romances were cautionary tales not encouraged.
I blame my generation shippers. They’re the worst.
I think this is deliberate and/or a self-report on the part of the TOTALLY normal people in Hollywood who keep greenlighting this stuff.
Not gonna lie, I forgot that was a thing! I have seen so much "evil is good" in the pass 10 plus years that I always think of the scene from the movie Vampire in Brooklyn where the main villain turns into a preacher and starts giving a sermon to the church about how "Evil is Good", because that is all I see now days. When someone now days is truly treated like they are for real villain it tend to be the good guys now days without the "evil is good". LOL, today it's more like, "date that villain, they will make you a way better person!"
GREAT NERDWORD THRIST VILLAINS NOT WORKING.
It's a cycle in literature. Fantasy went through the same anti-hero cycle in the 1990s, with the vampires becoming the good guys, and before that... sci-fi did the same thing in the 1970s as sci-fi utopia became dystopia. What happens is stories that have really good villain's, end up generating new stories where the villain's are the main characters, because that's what readers want.
As a woman who prefers healthy relationships, thank you. Modern poor writing makes us all look like immoral, weak and stupid human beings. But at the same time creators try to gaslight us into believing that main female characters are intelligent, strong and should be praised. It makes every story feel like y/n fanfic
i think your just ahead of the bell curve
a major problem is that the female directors
1. don't understand what feminism is
2. hollywoods post modernism problem
3. they are midwits and arent intelligent enough to write actual relatability
I say your above average because the masses seem to slurp this stuff up like ambrosia while you're adept enough to notice how stupid this is
its the same people who support this garbage that herald the worst brand of feminism imaginable while not seeing the hypocrisy
A lot of these "strong" female protagonists are only strong in a superficial physical way, I've noticed. Mentally and emotionally, they're very weak. And sadly, the story often doesn't treat it like a dangerous flaw that they should grow out of.
@@meth_raccoon YES, I couldn’t say it better
I love your videos, and man, the amount of fanfics I saw with the plot "the beauty and the drug dealer" with lines as "He killed my family but he didn't want to do it" "I could see in his eyes he was underneath a good person" is both hilarious and depressing...
So crazy that this unfortunately made their way to mainstream culture, now...
This and the amount of abuse and mafia leader stuff I see is insane to me. It’s likely the ‘I can save him’ thing. Pure fantasy.
Im hey it’s me I’m the one that writes that kind of stuff but gay
Exactly! Good girls like bad guys sure, they feel drawn to save us from ourselves, but!!! What Acolyte did was fxxking insane, if I killed my lady’s dad and all of her friends, love is out of the question, she’d try to kill me. In what realm do women feel sexually drawn to monsters?!? Stop it. Get some help lol
A world where men (or older women like the one who used to work as a personal assistant to Harvey) can treat young women this way is the world that the people who approve these projects want. This is wish fulfillment for Harvey, Jeffrey, and others like them.
@@themostbestwizard Honestly you can't turn this around on the few psychopath powerful men who exist, these books are being written and read by 99.99% women.
Ours. Unfortunately it happens a lot, check out all the women who fell for Ted Bundy AFTER his crimes were revealed to the world.
@@krisynthiagomez5883 Yikes! He was so evil that when he escaped from prison, he immediately got caught again because he ended the time on Earth of a 12 year old. He couldn't even NOT be that kind of creature to avoid being caught after he escaped. The thought of any woman wanting to be with him is shocking to me... and I tend to have very low expectations of people.
This kinda reminds me of some people who ship Zutara (not all, and yes I understand the appeal and if they happened to have become endgame after his redemption I wouldn’t be mad) especially after he betrayed Katara.
To me, the moment he betrayed Katara definitely told me that no matter what happened afterwards, they wouldn’t be together. I mean he spent the almost the whole show hunting the Gaang, stole Katara’s necklace which meant a lot to her, betrayed her, technically helped killed Aang, then afterwards hunted them again, then suddenly had a change of heart.
If she had gotten with him in the end (although I love Zuko and I love his entire arc), I would’ve been questioning the writers, because they only have 2 moments that you can argue as romantic (which it wasn’t, it was to show how they put aside their differences and bonded with one another) but other than that there was nothing.
No hate to Zutara shippers though, and I don’t think anyone should hate on them either.
Personally I only really love “enemies to lovers” if the “villain” turns out to be more of a vigilante uncovering dirty secrets on the good side, flipping the script between perceived good and evil. When people take it too far and keep those truly villainous traits like narcissism and power hungriness it really is just gross.
Stockholm syndrome isn´t a thing to aspire to. It´s a maladaptive behavior which exists to makes it possible for the victim to survive a terrible, dangerous situation which could have even worse consequences than the Stockholm syndrome itself. Imagine the cruel ancient times when villages were raided and plundered and women kidnapped by the raiders. This kind of terrible, dangerous situations where it´s either death/prolonged suffering or Stockholm syndorme as a protective maladaptive mechanism.
Hey sorry to derail things but this kinda bothers me, Stockholm Syndrome is a gross over simplification of abuse dynamics and was named after an event that was less victims loving their abusers and more victims feeling the cops meant more harm towards them than the guys holding them hostage.
@@thepinkestpigglet7529 Nice historical revisionism LOL!
Name one "mainstream" Hollywood film that glamorizes an instance of Stockholm syndrome as a good thing...
@@LD-tn6ff Harley Quinn and Joker from Suicide Squad was a very popular "oh so romantic and cool" thing among the teenagers. It even glamorizes Harley´s mental health issues like hearing voices (schizophrenia) as a funny and quirky thing.
Daenerys and Khal Drogo in Game of Thrones.
Rey and Kylo Ren to some extent, but it´s more of "I can fix him" syndrome than a classic Stockholm syndrome. Still toxic as f***.
Expectation: Make the villain hot so people would learn that good looks don't make a good person
Reality: People excusing the villain's atrocity because they're hot
EXACTLY, man we've lost the point entirely
The fact that some recent comments are saying “nuh uh” to this completely misses why this video was made in the first place
Exactly
9:55 AND HE BLAMED HER FOR SOMETHING HE DID. The ironic thing is that Reylos who calling themselves "feminist" don't stop complain how bad Anakin and Padme's relationship is. But they forgotten one thing, Padmé met Anakin when he was good, their first romantic interactions being Anakin a young adult, it was him and Padme on Naboo, making a picnic, even Padmé introduce Anakin to her family.
What Kylo and Rey first interactions are ? He kidnapping her, torture her, murdered his father in front of her, and in the second movie, once he tried to seduce her, he betrayed her, and told Hux that it was her who killed Snoke. I'mean Kylo was so coward to blame her instead of trying to defend her and create a lie which doesn't involved "his love" interest". I don't even know why Reylo is so popular, and as enemies to lovers they are the worse. Griffith and Guts from Berserk are better enemies to lovers than Kylo and Rey.
And let's not forget Anakin had positive traits that made Padme fall in love with him. He was very handsome, but also very kind, funny, and protective with a burning passion for the things he cared about and while this does come back to bite the in the butt during RotS, it shows why Padme would risk so much to be with him.
That said though, I don't think their romance was supposed to be portrayed as very healthy despite them genuinely being in love. His issues with control and her growing distrust in Palpatine was already setting up conflict between the two, and with Sidious's continued manipulations of Anakin and the senate they were on a collusion course to an unhealthy marriage.
I also think another good version is actually with Jacen Solo and Tenel Ka. They fell in love and even had a daughter together, but he ends up falling into the same trap as his grandfather and loses the woman he loves and never gets to see his daughter grow up.
Kylo and Rey were strictly enemies for the majority of the trilogy, they were effectively enemy soldiers to one another. Unlike...oh I don't know, Anakin who was Padme's husband when he force choked her? When he was violent towards her while she was heavily pregnant and unarmed? It's just ironic that Kylo and Rey are toxic for *checks notes* doing what enemies do...while excuses are made for the relationship where a man harms his defenseless wife. I think one of these fictional scenarios mirrors real-life domestic better than the other lol
@@gracedilawri9741 This was the perfect time to make a relationship better than Anakin and Padme, if they would go on and shipping Rey with Finn. So even if the character of Rey was not good, she could at least, having a good relationship with Finn. But what they did do? They decided listen to a fandoom which at the moment was increased in popularity and they shipping Rey with Kylo. And yes, Anakin and Padme are not the best example of a good shipping, but for me, it's very hypocrite that they critique that both were bad (especially if those critiques come from feminist community) while you put Rey and Kylo as the "maximum couple" when they are not the best example of a good shiiping either. And I've seen a lot of posts putting Anakin and Padme as the worse shipping (part of this tendency to dislike everything related to George Lucas) but they don't have any problems romantize Kylo and Rey relationship. When it's a bad relationship worse than Anakin and Padme's (and I say this as someone who likes both), for not speaking, what Reylos did to Adam Driver and his wife.
@@monicaaboites5053 All those words, and yet none of them can make your argument make sense. I never claimed that Rey and Kylo were some “maximum couple”, I simply pointed out that their canon relationship is much different than Anakin’s and Padme’s and you’re being willfully obtuse. It’s hilarious that you think that two enemies of equal strength fighting each other is morally worse than Anakin choking his pregnant wife. If it’s true that you like both ships, the least you can do is stick to the facts instead of going off on a biased tangent that demonstrates the opposite.
@@gracedilawri9741 The first, Reylo is my NOTP (which it means that I truly dislike it), sorry If you don't understand that, but when I said I like both I'mean Anakin and Padmé (both characters) not ReyLo (I dislike Kylo and Rey as a characters and as a couple). And I wouldn't have any problems with Reylo itself or their fandoom, but the point is, that Reylo's fandoom is hypocrite. At least, from the part of Spanish speakers, because I've seen several posts saying how badly Anidala is, or making fun that Anakin couldn't save Padmé, but they put their shipping as the best example of a good romance. When Reylo's are not the best example of good shipping, even as an enemies to lovers are a failure, because Rey didn't know Kylo at all, but for some reason she wants to do everything for him, without deserve it. Second, I'm perfectly aware that Anakin and Padme are not perfect, but with the new trilogy it was the perfect chance to create a health shiipping just like Han and Leia, but they didn't do it, because they decided to pay attention to Reylo fandoom (and don't tell me that Reylo was already planned since the first movie, because Rey and Finn in the first one had something)
Second, I'm not saying what you clamming that Reylo is the maximum couple, but this statement is something, as I said before, I have seen so much in posts written by Reylos, and truly its really frustrating, because Reylos getting mad if you dare to critique them. Ahhh but, they have all the right to critique Anidala, clamming how badly are they
Modern Writers: Remember kids, healthy romances are boring and make you weak.
Seriously, it’s NO WONDER so many marriages barely last a decade nowadays.
Exactly! 👍🏾
I'm trying to write a series where unhealthy people try to become healthy and have positive relationships; a lot of my audience feedback as been that the leads aren't erratic and toxic enough to ~ entertain ~ people.
I tell them to go read Colleen Hoover and leave me to the people who want to see characters trying to grow as people.
I saw a tiktok which went "when you and your friends are all in a stable relationship and there's no drama: *visuals of the people being bored*" and I was thinking there "yall WANT drama??"
If you need books to tell you how to have a healthy marriage then you have no business getting married let alone leaving your house.
Ah, yes as opposed to old movies which all depicted healthy romantic relationships.
I personally never understood villain love interests. My biggest crushes were always on characters like Aragorn and Luke Skywalker, men who were inherently good. Flawed, but good. Heroism was always what I found attractive-the ability to look evil in the eyes and say, “You hold no power over me”. Seeing women figuratively “fall in love” with the male villains even after they’ve clearly done some messed up crap just feels…gross.
Perhaps you had a better relationship with your father (and perhaps brothers) than women who are attracted to villains?
Man… reading your comment makes me feel quite bad about myself. As a kid my first show crush was Vlad Plasmius from Danny phantom. I loved anakin and wasn’t a fan of Luke at all. I can’t think of one example of when I was sexually or romantically intrigued by one of the heroes. And it’s really really hurt my love life as an adult. I hate myself because I always leave nice men. Makes me feel so screwed up. I cry about it sometimes. Sorry for the trauma dump 💀
I've always felt the same. Good-hearted male characters are more attractive to me. There's just nothing about selfish, villainous possessiveness that I find alluring. Even with Anakin, who's a character that still has qualities I find attractive apart from all his dark moments; it's part of why his fall from grace is so tragic, because he could've been that paragon hero if he just hadn't put himself first.
Daddy issues.
@@ladyinsect6444 I am insanely attracted to villains and anti hero’s most of the time in my media, yet I’m engaged to the sweetest teddy bear. It’s all about separating reality from fiction and fantasy. A lot of people seem to struggle with that.
Stalking and romance are dictated by how attractive you are. It's been made abundantly clear. It's never about actually thinking "This isn't good for either of us" it's 100% "They're so hot tho." I think it's hilariously ironic we live in a world where sexual content is so polarizing and attempted to be censored or cracked down on, then all shows and stories, even for kids, are pushed with sexuality in mind. And not sexuality in their orientation, in the "let's make this a future fetish for these kids" type way. It's weird at best and disgusting at worst.
The worst part is seeing the kids copying this behavior, "I didn't knew stalking was wrong, in the cartoon I'm watching the protagonist do this and it always ends well for her. 🥺".
I get the point of an attractive villain, because power is "seductive". But that only works as to tempt the hero to falter from their morals. It doesn't work with many modern villains because you should EXPECT the villain to play with the hero and it's up to the hero's strong will to resist that temptation. That's what makes the hero strong. To do things the hard, but right way rather than giving in for the simply and easy shortcuts. But no, instead the villain is sexy .... for the sake of being sexy. for the sake of romance, and getting more women to watch and consume the product. Because I know for sure these forced romances aren't getting shoved in for the male viewers.
And Hollywood thinks it knows what women want without actually asking us, so they just give us the same 'ole, same 'ole over and over.
Your post makes no sense to me. If I had to come up with JUST ONE of many potential character traits that another character would face in the "overcoming of temptation" of another, it would be lust and sexual desire. Man, you guys are so ignorant to how the real world works.
This is one of the best analyses I’ve seen on the rather disturbing trend in movies and television. It’s easy to see the amateurish writing and production, but the moral relativism evident behind them is less obvious and therefore more insidious. Writers are writing for and about themselves and their not-so-secret desires. It’s really just bad fan-fiction with big budgets. It is a sad trend but apparently one that is not gaining audiences, so there’s hope for better movies and TV to come. Excellent video. Thanks!
A sad, sad, sad truth
Never ceases to amaze me, how these people drool over "Thirst Trap Villains" then whine about toxic masculinity. Hilarious.
Yep
Who expects feminist to be logical.
@@GreenFalcon926 almost like one is in fiction and the other is in real life
@@gaiuszeno1331 those who can tell fiction from reality probably
@@sugarzblossom8168 I were to expect them to be able to tell fiction from reality I would know they are not feminist or any other extremist ideology.
The appeal of villain romances is sorta like the fantasy of having a pet tiger. It will rip your face off, but in a book it’ll rip OTHER peoples faces off FOR YOU, once you gain its trust and see past its harsh violent exterior and so on
I like villains but the whole shirtless approach is just really cheap and doesn't add anything of substance to be enticing
Not different then the scantily clad female character.
@@carlflaherty2215Difference is people bring out pitchforks for scantily clad women, yet male thirst traps with no shirts always seem to get a pass.
@@carlflaherty2215the difference is the man wearing less doesn’t get the rage that a woman wearing less does
@@Linklex7 That's just a demonstration of the messed up double standard we find ourselves in.
@@carlflaherty2215especially how the female body is more sexualised.
Women not wearing a top is enough to make people suddenly argue that men shouldn't be allowed to be shirtless after nearly never bringing it up
When it comes down to it, it just makes the protagonist look like a terrible person.
You show us a character who you say is pure and kind and fighting for justice.
But then she falls in love with a genocidal psychopath without expecting so much as a redemption ark first.
It makes it seem like she just doesn’t care about all the people he’s hurt or killed.
Sometimes she literally doesn’t even mention them.
(Even if they where her family or friends.)
It just makes her seem really shallow and selfish.
This is a big reason why I started to really dislike Rey after TLJ. I found it disrespectful asf how she was acting so mushy and googly eyed w/ the guy who tortured, injured, and almost killed her "friends".
I bet if Kylo hadn't died, Rey would've forced Finn, Poe, and anyone whose loved ones got killed by Kylo during the war to be nice to him and accept him into their lives. 🤢 She cared more about him than she cared about herself or any of his other victims and she never got called out on it. That was the biggest unforgivable sin for me when it came to her character
It’ll never happen, especially when MeToo women keep overlooking the Hollywood writers that used to work with Wienstien. Acolyte lead is a creep.
You mean the actress or the ones who the director of the show?
Making the bad guy look good while making the good guy look bad ... Now where have we read about that before ....
Exactly.
Try 80% of modern media😒
@@clarenceandgennymcneil251 yes but long before modern media there was some place this was written
I've noticed this trend too and I've long been sick of it. I've never understood the attraction people feel toward the 'bad boy' archetype, it's not something I've ever related to; especially since the male characters I find attractive have been more along the line of flawed, yet still heroic paragons (there are people out there who apparently find this boring or generic). I knew badly behaved guys irl, and I could always tell they were scumbags on the first encounter and wanted nothing to do with them-not even be friends with them.
I think it might be people confusing the Beauty and the Beast dynamic: the Beast (in the Disney version, at least) is a flawed person, but he's not a 'bad boy' archetype; in the film, _Gaston_ is the bad boy. The Beast is a person who feels hurt due to his transformation and lashes out at people out of insecurity thanks to basing his self-esteem on his appearance. He doesn't actually want to hurt or domineer anyone, he was just spoiled-a product of his environment-and has to unlearn his bad habits. This is very different than a bad boy archetype, which oftentimes doubles down on the character's worst qualities and there's no real personal growth.
Edit: fixed mistake.
So Beast is actually a depressed low self-esteem guy that women don't even look at. That sounds more unrealistic than bad boy romances
It seems especially ironic since strong female characters should not be seduced by villains easily. Can they be persuaded and manipulated yes, but that translates to them being seduced and fall in love with them.
I can’t think of too many female heroes who don’t ultimately end up with the bad guy in the end. Except maybe Samus Aran from Metroid. They either end up with the female or someone who’s just an outright asshole to them
Remember when lust for power and control was a villainous trait instead of a heroic one? Good times.
"a hero would sacrifice you to save the world, but a villain would sacrifice the world to save you"
is this a safe place for me to say that I think this sentence is complete bullshit? Do you REALLY believe that someone (probably insane and immoral) wouldn't use you just to fulfill his evil plan? Do you really think that you Will be THAT important?
I could not agree more. I have heard that sentence all over social media and it is truly one of the most foolish things I have ever seen. And utterly narcissistic too.
@@nerdword07 Yes!! Finally someone agrees with me!!
Finaly! It's so dumb. The saying should go like this. "A hero would sacrifice themselve to save the world, a villain would sacrifice you and the world for themselve."
@@meltemb1705 OH MY GOD YES! YES! I WILL USE THAT
dawg you would not believe how long i been waiting for someone to say this... thank you
So stalking someone is supposed to be sexy now 🤢 Nope I will pass. I tried to watch tej Acolyte but it had that same garbage. The guy murders all her friends and he's trying to seduce her and she's..... Likeing it??? THIS IS TOXIC AND PSYCHOTIC DEFINITELY NOT ROMANTIC 😔 I HATED the Rey and Kylo. HE MURDERED HIS FATHER ( WHO REY WAS LOOKING AT AS A FATHER FIGURE) AND SHES ATTRACTED TO IT??? I am SO GLAD you addressed this. I literally couldn't watch 50 shades of Grey for that same reason. An abusive relationship isn't romantic. How is this romance??? Oh wait it's not
I think it's weird. Women write and create these shows and movies with absolutely toxic men and literal PDF file teachers... after spending the past 2 decades telling men how toxic they are.
Like apparently that's what gets you like a slip n slide. Cos that's what you're writing. 😂
LITERALLY! This pisses me off so much. Women complain about men being toxic but that seems to be all they fantasize about. I remember my friends in school making fun of me for refusing to watch twilight cause it was extremely toxic and ridiculous and the guys were not dreamy at all and they were all like “oh shut up they’re hot!” Same with Ezra from PLL. Everyone thought their relationship was so dreamy and went on and on about how they were “soulmates”. Women create these standards for men and then complain that they can’t find any good men.
Yep, they write men as toxic and women as girlbosses, but then have their girlbosses fall for the toxic men, which just makes the men look powerful and the women look weak and stupid. Are they trying to empower men or women here? They need to make up their minds.
Oh, the old blame the women trope. No dear, many of these writers are men who think they know what women want, but actually have no idea. But okay, blame women if it make you feel better.
@@Himmiefan twilight, 50 shades, Coleen Hoover in general, pretty little liars, all written by women for women not a man in sight. Take some responsibility for the standards that y’all have set for yourselves.
@@Himmiefan It's ironic that you're blaming men while scolding others for blaming women. Also, this discussion is largely centered around The Acolyte, which had a mostly female writers room (7 females, including the head writer, to 3 males).
I think a villain-ish romance can work if they had a Zuko from Avatar:TLA type redemption arch where they try do it on their own but obviously has to face consequences to it.
The guy in Acolyte had no repercussions but Osha's father figure gets the most blame/ gets offed for making a dire mistake to protect her from what thought was a threat. 👁-👁like wtf
One thing I loved about Heathers (The movie) is that JD is clearly mentally unstable and doesn't love Veronica. The story doesn't sugarcoat their attempt at a relationship. Their relationship doesn't work, JD doesn't love Veronica but only loves the power ge has over her.
When he loses this power he tries to kill her (the fake suicide scene). Even when she is having a dificult all he thinks about is himself and not her.
We need to bring proper romance stories. These sorts can not be healthy for young ladies understanding of love.
I have made it my mission to write healthy romances for women who recognize that thirst trap villains are bad news and want kind, caring and compassionate men of values and who recognize the value and dignity of the women in their lives.
My debut novel is under consideration for publication.
@@janeyrevanescence12 Sorry bro, that's too reasonable for the modern publishing industry.
@@laze4534 it’s not with any of the Big Five.
One element might be a choice whether to write healthy relationships versus toxic relationships. But you can't assume writers necessarily have a level of maturity, self-awareness or skill. You could write a story that endangers women just by being inept. If you can't write a story with subtlety, then maybe you default into writing stories where abs are a substitute for personality. Maybe a particular writer lacks the skill to write 3d characters or to have a model of human interactions where someone is deformed as a consequence of their misadventures.
A phrase I liked from an essay on a production of Twelfth Night was 'adult threat'. If a romantic lead is characterised as a full human being, then vulnerability isn't incongruous with threat. It's a function of it. If the other party could damage you psychologically, steal your wallet, or try and convince you pineapple on pizza is a respectable option, then the trust and the assessment of the other party's kindness or virtue might be related to knowing that a poor choice could mess you up. You're gambling your safety, long-term psychological health, and perhaps your soul.
@@janeyrevanescence12congratulations on the book
Everyone's excuse for liking these new villians* "But he's hot tho"
Unfortunately 😒
And he can kill a bunch of women and kids and still be like “But he’s hot tho”.
Leslye Headland pretty much said that Qimir represents the type of freedom from societal constraints to be whoever you choose to be. You could interpret that to mean abandoning morality for toxic self-indulgence. The show promotes that as a good thing. It also reinforces the belief that bad boys get the girl because women prefer the excitement of a dangerous (abusive) relationship over one that is safe (boring) and secure (predictable).
The biggest thirst trap villains, at this time right now, are Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn. People are willing to forgive every evil act either of them do to the point of ignorance. They call them anti-heroes and echo warriors or 'bad but not evil' as they murder, manipulate and yes r@pe men to get what they want. Yet, no matter how many people Harley bludgeons to death with her hammer or bat or how many mutant Venus fly traps eat people whole or people that are poisoned, YOU'RE just being a hater. But what we really are are sufferers because we all want a good story with these characters, but it's not happening here.
Well said!
@@pinkwonderpower7906agreed
I think an important difference here is that men might watch a show with Harley Quinn because she's a fun and hot character, but many men would never date a Harley Quinn. Whereas many women will literally date a psychopath / criminal.
Yeah I know, some men do, not all women do, etc, but women still seem much more attracted to psychopathy than men are, in general. Your typical romance story aimed at men doesn't have a psychopathic female love interest in it, while many romance stories aimed at women do have psychopathic male love interests -- and that's reflected in the fact that women are more commonly attracted to psychopaths IRL.
No the biggest thirst trap villainess is still Lady Dimitrescu lol
@@lightworker2956 Source: I made it the fuck up lol, some women liking dark romance doesn't now prove women are attracted to psychopathy more than men. Cos 4 some reason y'all seem to assume women can't separate the fiction they consume from reality. It's kinda weird.
To be fair, Galadriel was always tempted by power. It's why she had to turn away the ring when Frodo tries to give it to her.
Dude here
Surprisingly good analysis. I think there is a role for thirst traps out side of romance but not everywhere. Much like the explosion of self insert characters that feel like they have be recruiting from the b team of fanfic writers the problem with thirst traps aside from coming from the same pool of writers is they are everywhere.
People like the Jungian shadow, its hot. In good (morally) character they have an integrated shadow that they can leverage as needed but is not uncheck. To be good morally you need the capacity to do wrong both in terms of temperament but also capability. Think nice versus kind.
There is role for these dark romance in normal fiction (again not everywhere), especially in noir, or fiction piece that are supposed to have happy endings. It would fit in universe like a song of ice fire (game of thrones) although Sargon makes compelling case that the arc of the story demands Tolkien like victory of the Hero.
I do think the the problem stems from many of these IP trying to shift there core audience (male) in the most hackneyed way possible. Also it seems like they pulled writing talent from the shipping fanfic community.
Overall good essay.
“Power has taken the place of love” I love that
Amen😢 In fiction and real life relationships
Indeed
I think this was an excellent analysis, and I do agree we need more morally sound and masculine heroes having healthy romances. The stuff of Princess Bride, Lord of the Rings (OG trilogy) and Disney classics.
However, I vehemently disagree that thirst trap villain trope should die. First off, we really don't have stories where an unredeemed villain ends up with the girl. Practically all the examples given here are morality tests where the heroine is tempted, but ultimately decides against the romance. Acolyte (and Fight Club upon which the dynamic is based on) is kind an exception, but not really. The female protagonist herself is (or becomes) the villain. So, it's not a clearcut case of a heroine ending up with the villain. It's a villain ending up with a villain. (Note: I'm talking about movies and TV. I haven't read romantasy at all and I know the trope there works wildly differently.)
The ONLY true exception I'm aware of is Hannibal and even that is more in the book ending than in the movie ending. Another is Possession (2009) where the female protagonist ends up with the villain is in the alternative cut. It's not even available on the official DVD release.
In every other case either the villain is redeemed before the female protag accepts the courting (ie. Megamind, The Grinch) or it's a miserable and tragic ending to their attraction, a cautionary tale where the villain IS NOT rewarded with love by the end (Reylo, Dracula, Attack on Titan, Lexana, Raistlin/Crysania, etc.)
When my sexual awakening started to happen in my preteens, I was completely mesmerised by Frollo, Gary Oldman's Dracula and the Goblin King. I WANTED to see a romance, as ill-adviced as it is form a "moral of the story" standpoint, where there could be a balance between the light of the woman and the darkness of the man. Entertainment is the only safe place to adventure with those curiosities as in real life I'm utterly put off by "bad boys".
On audiovisual side of entertainment, HEA's with villain/heroine dynamic don't exist. They just don't. And until they do, I don't want the trope to die.
(If someone has recs for movie/TV romances where the villain ends up happily with the female protagonist who's morally upright - please send them my way!)
Pardon me for the novel length reply. I've seriously tried to scratch that itch for a PROPER female protag/villain ending up with HEA and have failed in that pursuit for 30 years.
Oh, and I should maybe elaborate. I'm aware there's crime thrillers that probably break the apologue rule (Basic Instinct comes to mind, and probably that awful movie series where the crime drug lord boss keeps calling the woman he kidnaps a "baby"), but I have zero interest in drug/crime/motorbike gang stories. So, I might have a big blind spot there what comes to the heroine/villain HEA trope.
To be honest I'm really tired of villains with sob stories. I rather have the classic good vs bad story
OK KO’s Professor Venomous.
Obsessed with gaining power.
Faked his death, traumatizing his crew, making one of his teammates carry the blame for years, and leaving his partner having to raise their son all alone.
Directs his unhealthy obsession to selling inventions to evil people.
Money hungry
Betrays his next partner
Emotionally and physically abuses his son once they meet again and shows zero remorse toward his first partner when she sees him again.
And yet the fandom barely brings these up because he’s physically and verbally attractive
Really feel like it says a lot about people if they are attracted to a brutal murderer either because they are attractive looking or the show or movie shows them in either little or no clothing.
It says a lot about women. Shows how evil and corrupt they are. Yet society still tries to convince us that women are morally superior to men. They forget that most women sell their bodies for material gain.
Modern female standards. They claim to want a good guy but there’s none available but really they have ridiculous physical and status related standards.
It's a Hollywood dollar problem. One movie like this is successful, so studios demand multiple copies just to make money.
Women love the bad boy thing. It exudes power, but lacks any virtue.
honestly the more I hear about The Acolyte, the more I'm glad I stopped after the first episode.
I'm glad I checked out after "The Last Jedi."
@@carlflaherty2215 you do see some of the ships Han used when trying to find the Falcon in the "galaxy fleet," and the first two seasons of Mando were good. That being said, even if you checked out after the first six you wouldn't be missing too much.
I struggle liking most media characters, but i love villains because they're more interesting (not all ofc). Heroes are boring and bland, constant whining over nothing, tired and boring moral dilemmas, overreacting over past mistakes, etc. The end result is always marriage, kids, dirty dishes and laundry. Villains offer something else. What is wrong with wanting power and a power fantasy? Men can have that, but not others?
Not all heroes whine over nothing
Nothing wrong with power fantasies
It's fine if you don't like heroes but I'll tell you this right now they will never not be boring
What do you mean what's wrong with wanting power.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to have power as long as it benefits other people. But there is a danger of becoming power hungry and wanting everything for yourself. In fictional stories, but also in real life, too much power usually corrupts. I hope you understood my point.
Thirst trap villains are there because women are naturally attracted to the archetype; making them a villain also makes the man at fault for the relationship not working out. Peak modern feminism.
LMAO! 😂
THIRTY VILLAINS NO
Blaming feminism shows that you look down on women. Tell us you know nothing about women and blame them for all your issues without telling us you know nothing about women and blame them for all your issues.
@@HimmiefanHave a better argument. You didn’t add anything.
@@edorasmarauder5761 Triggered! LOL!
BDSM community member here!
I wanna say (And I'm sure many agree with me) Fifty Shades is NOT BDSM. It is abuse. BDSM is about causing pleasure. A submissive who loves pain and a dominant who loves causing it (While knowing they're pleasuring their love interest). Anastasia is NOT a submissive. And BDSM is a completely healthy activity so long as it's being done by two enthusiastically consenting parties. I HATE the fifty shades books so much. They are a complete misportrayal of BDSM. Sorry for my rant.
You picked the wrong comment section
This channel is puritan as hell
What does puritan mean
Can you imagine current Disney coming out with an animated feature like The Hunchback of Notre Dame nowadays? That would never happen. Wow, do I miss the '90s. As for the male protagonists of trilogies such as Fifty Shades and 365 Days, for instance, they're now considered "misunderstood" eye candy while the female leads are deemed strong women by exploring their sexual desires with no societal restrictions...
I suspect another reason for these is simply marketing.
Women, despite all the feminism, me too and general misandry, tend to still be attracted to strong, masculine men, however, in the girlboss era, we can't have strong masculine heroes anymore, since men must either be belittled, made jokes of or feminised to the point of insanity (the acolyte certainly did this).
Villains however are perfect for female fantasies, no "problematic", tropes of a female character being rescued by a hero, since the female character "chooses", to follow him (got to have that agency), and of course we can go right on preaching the evils of men and "toxic masculinity", not to mention the nihilistic mantra of empowerment.
And the best bit? We still get hot men for women to lust over, and for the empowered girlboss heroin to swoon in the arms of, too.
Its win win, well accept for men, morality and society! but who cares about those things.
Good point. Having heroines fall for villains gives feminists the romance that they still want without requiring the male heroes that they don't.
Good point they can lust over men whilst still putting them down
I agree with everything here
Yeah, fair point. Men in modern movies are either idiots or evil. And idiots aren't attractive, so I guess evil men have to become the love interests.
Good comment. Modern feminists want to be their own hero and save themselves. In their minds they are still in control being “choosing” the villain when they aren’t in control and look like idiots. I’ve noticed that when “they can’t change” the villain they’ll still blame the villain aka the man and not take any accountability for themselves
I like some of your arguments, but I don't think all of your examples were chosen well. Thirst trap villains are only a problem, if the heroine actually gives in and being with them becomes the "happy" ending of the story. Examples like Shadow and Bone or Rings of Power (not arguing about anything else in these stories, just focusing on this one aspect) are very different, because the heroines manages to overcome temptation and defie the villain in the end. They are the opposite of your other examples. Overcoming obstacles, being tempted and resisting it is not bad writing and can work very well to develop and grow a character. I also think it would have been interesting if you had incorporated some examples of men being tempted by female villains, which is a much older trope that follows a similar structure.
Yes, great points. It's rare that the heroine chooses the truly evil villain. When she does choose him, it's usually because he went on his own journey of redemption and is a changed man worthy of her love by the end.
A story is always a manifestation of the writer's psychology. The examples being analysed here sound like the work of immature, envious, resentful narcissists. What a time to be alive.
Yeah now it's just the writers self insert poorly disguised fetish
Characters that know how to weaponize themselves to get what they want are intriguing but thirst trap shi is like showing some super important backstory and than not expanding on it. Like it's just introduced to flirt with the idea without expanding on it.
"Thirst Trap Villains". I gotta use this! I'll be sure to cite you as the source. 😆
use "Tvillain" with a silent T :)
3:05 Do you realize that you just affirmed the toxic Nice Guy™ mentality, in which men are *owed* the sexual favors of a woman if he's done enough nice things (by his calculation) for her?
If you look at it outside of the context of the plot of the movie then I can see your point. In the context of the film Jasmine is in love with him too so yeah it would be quite the rug pull if it were to turn out the opposite way.
Love doesn't change or improve awful people, 99% of the time. Whether it's platonic, or romantic. And if you think your situation is gonna be that 1%, you're probably just being desperate and delusional. Or terribly optimistic, at the least.
THANK YOU for finally putting this into words! It's so frustrating to see capable female characters so easily fall for attractive villains. It's almost offensive because strong female protagonists are a good thing that an un-needed romance ruins so easily
current writers doesn´t know how to write heroes anymore...that´s why we only see villains and morons
Despite how bad they are exicuted and done. I don't fully hate "Thirst trap villains" because they do serve a narrative purpose. They are meant to challenge the hero not physically but mentally and psychology. They challenge the heroines morality and ideals by making her question them. They also try to temp her with her dark desires of passion, wealth, status and power. These villains are meant to pose challenges to overcome and NOT BE LOVE INTEREST. But modern female writers don't get that MO and try to pass these villains as "misunderstood heroes" that deserve love and redemption. That's what's wrong with these Characters .
It's also about - you can't have upstanding, "run through the fire for their lady", strong male lead kind of guy. Nope he has to be weak or a sexy villain and the female has to constantly berate him because if not - then that's patriarchy and she don't need no man, she can save herself!!!! and all the other narcissistic, power grab ideology talking points that are prevalent. The sacrifice of the male hero or lead, no matter how honorable, will always be looked as toxic through their lens.
Great example of a strong female character in a healthy relationship? Helen “Elastigirl” Parr, Kim Possible, Rapunzel, Princess Fiona, etc.
theres nothing wrong with Thirst trap as long as people are aware that is what is going on, I dont think its that different from a femme fatale (FF) in a noir movie where the FF ends up as part of the antagonists and not really a romantic interest
The problem is one side takes it a bit too seriously. A man will have fantasies and fun with the bad girl, but will ultimately marry the good girl. Women have fantasies and fun with the bad boy and then go off and marry said bad girl and when it all goes wrong blame all men for it. Men understand that it’s a fantasy, women take it as a fact that that’s how the real world works.
@@Linklex7this comment section shows that men do not understand that it is a fantasy
@@Linklex7 I'm not sure I agree with that, in my experience I'd say man marry bad girls all the time, and I know a few girls that played around a lot with "bad boys" and went on to marry suckers or ""good boys"", actually now that I think about it, I think boys and girls are pretty much the same, selfish people use others and discard them as they see fit, honest people are either taken advantage of or they get lucky and get another honest person.
@@sugarzblossom8168 yeah, it makes me think of the old Anita Sarkeesian's videos where she had the worst possible interpratation of the stuff she considered "problematic"
@@cjr1382 I beg y'all to stop viewing human relationships through the movie tropes y'all see, or what social media slop you're watching & actually touch grass. This is what feminists mean when they say y'all don't see women as multifaceted human being. No way bro just implied women can't separate reality from fiction lol.
I’ve deadass seen a story where it’s basically “what if Jasmine and Jafar got together and it was healthy?”
I hate it.
Ew!
It’s literally everywhere, it’s invaded every single fantasy book out there at the moment. I’ve just read the Ever King and the female protagonist literally falls in love with the guy who invades her home and kidnaps her, taking her away from everyone she cares about. She has a few days of hating him, and then falls madly in love with him?? Like girl?? He literally kidnapped you, just because he’s a hot pirate you’ve abandoned your whole life from before??
SOMEONE FINALLY PUT IT INTO WORDS!!! I am so pissed with this kind of villain, it irks me and makes me never want to go back to a specific story. It's maybe even worse when this trope is paired with the "enemy to lovers" dynamic. I can understand being physically attracted by someone, but if that someone is a douchebag who has killed your family/always hated and disrespected you/tried to kill you/commited genocide and just happens to be hot, rich and powerful, is still a monster douchebag who has to be stopped, not fawn over.
the acolyte ending is the answer to jay (jay from redlettermedia)'s jokingly wanting for a "ruling together, no lightside no darkside" because disney have no backbone and creativity
Watching this reminded me of two scenes from The 1980s Star Wars parody Spaceballs. The scene where Dark helmet (Rick Moranis) is playing with his Space action figure dolls. The other scene is where Dark Helmet tells Lone Starr (Bill Pullman) that “ Evil will always triumph because good is dumb”.
he's no bad boy, he's an expired cereal.
I argued that stories never outgrew the myth of a woman waiting for a prince to save her, but now instead of a good prince we wait for a dark prince, but a prince nonetheless. Bothers me that the man is always the holder of this "secret knowledge", this "different view" and he is willing to share it with the naive female protagonist who's in her journey of self-knowledge. He'll guide her in this part of her life, he'll teach her how to be her true self, he'll save her from her tower (the boredom of a puritan-coded life, or perhaps her poverty if he is rich). Honestly? Ugh! That's why I enjoy Vin from Mistborn stabbing Zane to death after he had invited her to run away with him because “they were equals”. Or Tress who subverts the genre by going to save the boy she loves from the evil sorceress.
I'm surprised no one brings up thirst trap characters who are female. Theres been several and frankly they are just ignored now... Thirst trap villains can work in the hands of a writer who knows how to write the 'seducing and manipulating snake' trope.
Writers must do these things to write thirst trap villain:
- Do not under any circumstances have the villain be redeemed by mc, these manipulating snakes are already set in their ways.
- Do not subvert the villains lack of morals.
- Do not have the villain fall in love with mc, they are using mc to further their own goals, love and attraction are just tools to them.
- There must be a time in the story where the mc is of no use to the thirst trap and is betrayed by them.
Thirst trap females are the jezebel/Madonna-ho complex/vamp trope. Writers like the one who made this video tend to despise that trope. Jezebel trope will gain uproar and backlash while this trope will be hidden in plain sight.
Seductive female who leads the male heroes to the wrong end? That’s probably as old as “women being blamed for every bad thing”. I’m not familiar, however, of examples where the male hero falling for the seductive villainess was seen as a good thing. Most of the time, the hero was shown to finally overcome the seductress. Or, if the hero do succumb to the seductress and cannot finish his destiny, it’s usually seen as a bad thing.
Even history has a lot of examples of “good men turned away from their purpose/job by pretty women”. Cleopatra blamed for bewitching Mark Anthony, for example. How can someone who holds half of the Roman world and was Caesar’s right hand man fall so low? The answer according to some Roman writers back then: Cleopatra.
@@alexanderchristopher6237 Good example. The thirst trap trope shouldn't be avoided but handled better.
There is a difference between what women say they want, what the actually want and what they react to.
So, you're one of the guys who think that when woman says no, she means yes? That's good way to get your a$$ in jail.
To much assuming @@Himmiefan
@@Himmiefan At this point, you're ragebaiting.
@@edorasmarauder5761 i dont know anyone Who doesn't. All of them same
Also the difference between fiction and real life
I think some women like a powerful male villain: 1) he's typically hot (no explanation there), 2) very powerful (women want to feel secure), 3) have a miss understood heart of gold (who is seen as an outcast because of society rather than his actions and that he would still be caring to her and the people he cares about), 3) be specifically nice to main girl love interest and get into fights (similar to the 1st and 2nd point, he is only kind to her and a select few people and selfishly fight for her), & 4) they could be “fixed” and he would sacrifice everything for her (girls want the man to be so in love with them that they will dramatically change for their love interests and girls want, for better or for worse, to be so close and special that they can have more impact on him and still have the fairytale dream). I admit the last one was a little strange, but I think when some girls feel they're not feeling special and that want to feel like they matter to someone else. 5) Bad boys are like forbidden fruit, like Edward says he can't no to Bella that he can't resist her and risk losing control and she wants him because she likes the idea of the undead and having something different to their lives. Also with mob bosses, gangsters, CEO, etc, they are often thrillseekers, reckless, criminals, and feeling untouchable.
To put it simply, girls like fantasy, forbidden fruit, and being so special that they can attract a powerful and hot villain and change him.
And why is never an overweight, hairy man ? Where is the all body image positivity acceptance, all welcome nonsense ?And why are they sexualizing males while anything making females sexy is forbidden these days ? Where's the moral from these Twitter users, Writers, Actors etc ?
No one actually cares about unattractive men. Well, not to the point where they're willing to lift a finger to help them.
Honestly, it's really hard to find a good male love interest. I think the reason the villain as the love interest is because it's the final evolution of an adult bad boy. Even in romance stories the guys who are the good guys are arrogant assholes. I think it's the honesty that you get from the villain, hey I'm the bad guy but I'll have a soft spot for you. Instead of the good guy who's a dick and never believes he's wrong and won't apologize.
Thirst trap villians definitely can work
Don't be a grinch
So long as the writers don’t make it as a good thing.
It’s been done and has been written. The issue today is that all the issues are sidelined and ignored or even seen as “good” because the persons hot.
I'm part of the demographic that understands the allure behind characters like these, however I draw the line with the blatant promotion of these as "romantic." To me at least, what I find fascinating in these types of fiction is the manipulation that they do to each other. It's all mind-games. There's passion yes, and they _might_ conflate with however much they feel for the other with love, but it's never true love. The tragedy and the knowledge of inevitable downfall of their "relationship" is what makes it good to me. This isn't romance, this is psychological thriller.
365 Days: What the actual Hell? I'd never even heard of that book/movie, but, seriously, what the heck? ...Anyways, in light of the on the existence and apparent success of books like that and Twilight and such, I brook no criticism of traditional male fantasies in modern fiction...
I just think is funny how whenever they make a thrist trap villain, he's usually ugly, Kailoren trying to make him sexy to Rey was so out of place, and this discount Kailoren in the Acolyte was another ugly washed up looking guy who I didn't care to see let alone with clothes off. Now Jamie Dornan or Henry Cavill, now there's a thirstrap villain I can get behind.
I have a theory the not very conventionally attractive thirst traps are specifically aimed at insecure, therefore easy to be manipulated girls/women. Someone like Cavill is so out of their league and they know it they are more attracted to someone who is more normal-looking because their subconsciousness perceives this type as more accessible.
Adam Driver is fairly handsome but each with they'r own belieffs.
Believe it or not, men also grow up thinking about romance. We dream about finding a beautiful princess, and about being her hero and provider. Unfortunately, once we grow up, we begin to realize that most women aren't interested in the good guy. Women want a bad guy who also looks good.
Women don't need bad guys, they need a STRONG men that does not care about her opinions. But society is teaching the good guys to be weak, so women turn to the only strong men left. Women runs towards STRONG men, the bad guys attraction is only because of what society did to the good men. The "internet narrative" is mistaken on this. When I became strong (leaving the girls immediately if she bother's me, physically strong, following only my own opinion, no simping, etc) I immediately had A LOT of girls, too many girls I would dare say. Once you live it yourself, you never go back.
I read this in a reedy "I'm a nice guy" voice.
If you have to say youre a good guy, chances are youre anything butl
@ThereIsAlwaysaWay2
"I've had lots of girls."
Drawing different faces on your left hand doesn't count, my dude.
@@1SpicyMeataball Instead of congratulation me, AND LEARNING, you just get jealous. Looks like I found a black pilled.
@@1SpicyMeataball Wow .... little voices in your head. Good grief bro get help.
Interesting video and very good points. I’ve noticed this as well and it’s annoying. It does make the female hero look shallow.
It also pushes the narrative that if you’re good looking your crimes aren’t as bad. People are willing to show leniency if a man or woman is attractive. So this type of thing actually happens in the real world.
Speaking of "Hellfire," have you seen Jonathan Youngs cover of it? If not, go look. Phenomenal.
I don't think I get it, from what I hear I feel like your talking more about bad writing then the villain x hero trope. If anything this feels like writers believe the only way to tempt the female lead to "the dark side " is to use a attractive villain and to me that makes the lead feel hollow and flat. Even the examples you used, none of them are good examples of love Aladdin has it's problems it has been so long since I've last watched The hunchback of Notre dame that I don't think I should talk about it. The best example I can come up with is disney's Tangled and the Flynn isn't even the main bad guy he's just a petty thief. But all the others are very problematic not because of the trope but for how it's written, none of use would ever be in the Mc shoes and fall in love these are very traumatic situations. Sorry for the rambling just feel like the "finger" isn't being pointed at the right thing.
The difference is that Lord of the Rings is that the show made it clear that Sauron manipulated her and it was shameful
The joke about going to the dark side, because they have cake taken to the extreme. I am not against an attractive villian/ morally gray character, but it's never done well anymore either they stay bad or their redemption is just superficial.
The sad part is MOST GIRLS would go with Jafar and throw Aladdin to the curb.
Not most girls the hell
How about a better title we need more thirst trap villains that can't be fixed because hot villains have and always will exist deal with it, Dracula used his charm to turn women into vampires and that was a book written in the 1800s you don't see this kind of hate with femme fatales it's always with male villains hmm I wonder why
“We need better and more cautionary villains” thirst trap is a misleading term to use
Different people like different things. Saying something shouldn’t exist just because it’s not for you is pretentious and narrow minded. I wouldn’t say the things I dislike shouldn’t exist unless they actually harm people in real life. Saying hot villains in fiction harm people in real life is theoretical and imaginary.
I actually didn't know what kind of channel this was. After reading the comments I decided to look at what your other videos are like and I was right about my feelings
Thank you for this! Much needed in such dark literary times!
If you want truly honest answers to your questions, I highly recommend you watch/listen to ContraPoints's latest video about the Twilight series. It's 4 hours lol, but I've listened to like 5 times it's so good. To summarize her video, she explains that in our real world patriarchy, women can't take power from powerful men and become powerful ourselves. The fantasy exists bc the powerless woman can seduce a powerful man into devoting himself to her, which, by proxy, gives her power. She has no control over the real world, so she has no agency. But she can control him in the bedroom, so her agency becomes making him submit to her love.
I don't like this fantasy, but I understand why other women do 🤷🏼♀️
It is weird that the same organisation who used to tell tales of young meeting a noble warrior to fall in love with "make their own lives complete" thinks that their modern, feminist message should be about young women meeting an untrustworthy psychopathic killer to fall in love with and redeem to "make their own lives complete". I don't see that as progress - more like an instruction manual for leaving yourself open to mental, physical and sexual abuse.
Some old Hollywood movies have toxic men depicted as a hero
For example: all Harrison Ford movies
Pop Culture Detective has a video about this
A related topic is the stories with women falling for monstrous humanoid creatures. Like in the film The shape of water. I've later learned there is a whole genre of literature of that. Truly bizarre.
Didn't Barnes and Noble advertise an entire shelf of that stuff a few weeks ago?
Imagine being so sheltered that you've never seen Shrek
@@apophis7712 shrek is entire different. A better one would be donkey and dragon
Amphibian Man is hot
I absolutely agree with you and one thing that I always notice with these villainous characters they are handsome and the female character just without a reason fell in love with them and disregard their villainous actions and their behavior which doesn't go same with the characters like Jafar and Judge Claude Frolo because they were written with the intention to make them a villain not a love interest for the female character and the fact that they are creepy old men, they are filled with lust for the female character that makes us filled with disgust and that's what I want and also I'm also writing a book myself with a female protagonist who's a detective and solving a case where there is a psychopath who is a serial killer who kills woman but his killings are not normal it is very brutal to the point that even the police and others get shocked at how grotesquely he murdered those women so I made this story with the intention to explore this theme of don't judge a book by it's cover because I made my villain on twist villain concept but he's not just ordinary one he is very conventionally handsome and also the fact that he pretends to be a gentleman and overall an aloof good guy towards everyone but in the inside he is not what he is and this theme I want to explore and same with my female protagonist who is also conflicted with this and I love female characters who are well written yet intelligent and strong and flawed and that is what my female protagonist is going to be and the fact that the villain not just only do this horrible crimes but also secretly stalks and invades in the female lead's personal space and lust after her, well this is the initial concept of the story for me it is going to take a lot of time to make it more complex with a lot of twists and characters involving in the story but yeah this is my initial idea of my book but also to know that with my female lead she's not going to solve this case all alone other characters are also going to come which she will take help of one involving a woman who has some connections with the villain and also a police officer also helping her too so this is my plan. (Also I will not mention that my villain who he is and what work does he does besides that he is obviously a serial killer but he has a connection with a female lead too not that close but in a different way so yeah)
What about Magneto from X-Men 97? He falls into this trope too since Beau De Mayo, the former show runner, made Magneto the hero of this show despite the fact that his main goal is to make humanity bow before the mutant race and is one of the few reasons why humans hate mutants. Worst of all, Beau De Mayo made Magneto act like a teenager being a dick towards Gambit and screwing around with Rogue just to rub it in his face, because Beau De Mayo hates Gambit for some reasons. And there's the part where Magneto acted selfish when Jubilee wanted the X-men to celebrate her 18th birthday by talking about his backstory. Worst of all, he and Rogue have one of the worst romances in the show which started off as grooming since Rogue was a teenager when she joined the Brotherhood and Magneto was old enough to be her granddad. Thankfully I'm not the only one who thought that Magneto x Rogue was the worst part of X-Men 97. I just hope that season 2 breaks them up for good.
Very good analysis - I’m surprised your channel doesn’t have more views.
Huh. The whole thing about villains is that they are attractive. Tempting you with promises of riches or affection. Not for nothing but to me , Hannibal Lecter is the sexiest man, ever. So what if eats people? He is erudite,,classy, self aware, polite, intelligent, eager to teach and inform, cultured an excellent cook. And according to Clarice Starling, he has the wiry build of a ballet dancer, deep maroon eyes and a sonorous voice...
What is not to like. If somebody wrongs you or behaves otherwise rudely to you; Hubby Hanninal will take care of it. He won't even make you join him for that particular 'meal'. He is the best. And when Anthony Hopkins played him in Silence of the Lambs...woooh😅! I think people are just more comfortable talking about the things they hate. Never seen the Acolyte but the Internet really hates it😂
This comment section is insane.
8:04
>movies like this are going to set genuine feminism back
>every example given written or co-written by a woman.
lol, ok. Seems like thirst traps were the objective of feminism all along.
Vanity was the point of feminism. It was all a ploy to get people to worship them for anything they do and avoid criticism at all cost.
You know that not all women are feminist or even pro feminism?
You realise women can be anti feminist or simply not be feminists?
I've always loved romantic love stories when I was small, especially the ones in animated movies like Anastasia and Mulan. Still, i also enjoy the Acolyte "enemies to lovers". Qimir is not really an enemy to Osha, at the end of the series she's the one who decides to side with him. He did not manipulate her. He simply showed her how rotten the Jedi around her were. How many lies they told her and how she could never feel accepted amongst them. I personally would not compare Qimir to Jafar or to the 365 days guy. Qimir is a grey character, he's not the main villain of the story. And they didn't even kiss once, they had insane chesmitry but that's it.
Best video essay in the whole world! Thank you!
Not to be that guy, but I think feminists who went all in on disparaging everything about boys' hobbies could have tried using a fraction of that energy to look at what ACTUALLY influences late-teen/young adult women. Not that teenagers arent being influenced but the teen years is usually when people are most rebellious/stubborn so trying to tell them these things are bad might just make them cling to them more.
To make matters worth, a prominent voice in Feminism disparaged the very idea of Rescue Romances. Claiming the heroic male is "just as toxic" as the villain who kidnaps the woman and they are just playing "ball" with an objectified woman... which has to be the most alien way i have ever seen anyone interpret basic stories like Mario or Zelda games because Mario and Link are fighting for their respective princesses' freedoms... not to keep them prisoner for themselves... Regardless of whether or not one thinks she deserves her place as a prominent feminist voice or not(or is even a "true" feminist) the fact remains she has managed to influence a lot of cultural output over the last decade. So what are these good, progressive authors left to do but pair the female lead with the villain? Afterall, it is progressive to not blame people for their own evil choices but society that clearly "forced" them into such.
As it stands, those bad romances only grew in popularity and influence. Then Hollywood(and other media) have made baffling decisions to hire those authors for all kinds of movies/TV shows where their bad romance novel stylings simply do not fit.
My hypothesis is that much like being a hero and saving the day is :male fantasy", changing another human being that drastically is a "female power fantasy". And while I am not against any power fantasies in general, i think there may be a correlation between women who have unhealthy obsession with such "villain romances" and choosing such terrible partners IRL... or as I have come to call it "Choosing the Bear and thinking it will change to a man for //you//"
and that is a good observation, That feminist i mentioned did have a lot of vitriol for women who choose to stay at home and be mothers, seeing them as "enemies" of progress. So a natural progression of this idea would be encouraging women not to seek love and family, but power and prestige.