I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t care if allistic people like me or not. When I was a kid I worked hard to get their approval and it was always out of reach and quite deliberately. I could tell by their smirks they enjoyed it when I was trying hard. I learned not to care. They were mean and not worth knowing or caring about. 40 years later I still have this viewpoint.
I have a similar outlook in that my attempts to people please were traumatic and I've since learned to be content with who I am. However, I also recognize that we're an extreme minority and things won't get better unless we have NT buy-in. I think it's important that content like this exists to challenge neurotypicals (those who are receptive anyway) to reconsider their opinion of us.
I find that some times the people who like us the least are the more manipulative NTs. Their technique doesn't work on many of us because we rarely play the social bs game and so they instantly try to push us away and tell all their friends we are creepy and bad news while we think our social interaction went well with them.
AGREED. I definitely agree that they sense that we don't buy their bullshit and it makes them furious. These people are always trying to smear and destroy me, but if I'm being honest, a small part of me enjoys being a thorn in their side because I know I don't have the same fear of social reprisal as most, so they can't control me like they can most others.
Absolutely agree. That's been my observation too. There always seems to be an underlying issue with them (personality disorders from my experience) and they recognize you're not playing by the same rules. I had a person like this come very close to obliterating my career because I could see through his bs and recognized his unethical behavior for what it was. Most NTs seem indifferent to us. They'll never be our close friend but they're not out to get us either.
I think they don't identify with being neurotypical themselves either, I've seen videos where narcissists and sociopaths also refer to "normal" people as neurotypical and distance themselves from that group bc essentially they're also masking.
@@rongike i don't know that much about narcissists and sociopaths but I think people can be mean and manipulate without having mental illnesses or disorders of any sort. Plus don't mental illnesses also count as neurodivergence? I may be wrong I just remember reading how depression also makes you not neurotypical but again I could be wrong
@@arurora5474 I personally think that any malevolent behavior (except like actually defending your life) is a trauma response of some sort, some programming meant to protect the person from perceived dangers but idk if they all qualify under any specific mental disorders, I'm actually struggling to understand what neurotypical behavior actually is bc they all seem very insecure and unwell to me 😭
A coworker told me that he's never seen me angry or upset after years of working with him, and it creeps him out. This was at a company event with an open bar. I thought I was being professional and apparently he perceives it as being "fake"
You were being professional. NTs are emotional, and not always in the nice way. Having self-control and not lashing out at coworkers is the mature things to do.
@Stevie-J While I've never been called fake, my oldest child hates that I'm so high masking. They say the same thing, that it "creeps them out" and that they never know whether the way I feel matches the demeanor that I'm presenting (which is calm 99% of the time). In my case, it's a result of high masking. I'm so used to having to control my outward presentation, I wouldn't even know how to be expressive with my feelings. That part of me is so long buried. It's actually pretty sad that so many of us have had to disconnect to survive.
The feeling when you realize that you've been told off for talking about yourself so much as a child that as an adult you're hesitant to talk about yourself at all. So many times as an adult I've been told I'm closed off or that getting personal information out of me is really difficult... well, I guess that's what happens when you internalize that talking about yourself is a bad thing.
The quiet and serious labels follow me everywhere too. There always seems to be career ramifications every time I try to loosen up and let people get to know me. I agree it's both a learned behavior and defense mechanism.
I came to a few conclusions: - smalltalk is (among others) about establishing social hierarch. They hate it when the other doesn't play by the rules to get that sorted out quickly. - Several behavior patterns of autistic people look similar to patterns of psychopaths even when the motivation and cause are completely different - Thinking before answering instead of using prepared "conserves" makes us appear dumb - Also (not sure if others do that but happens to me all the time) when they intentionally cross boundaries and they don't get rebuffed, they think of us as dumb and low status. When I then show my intellect and problem solving skills they freak out, because they can't make sense of what is happening.
I think there is some truth about it being social hiearchy. When you small talk you give clues about your social class and values. Looking at small talk in that way I have found the way to win that game is to ask people throwaway questions that give them the chance to establish their class and social status, while not being too personal. Questions about what sort of music they like, or where they last went on vacation, how many kids they have, etc etc, all give them a chance to brag about their lives in socially acceptable ways. The key to small talk is to avoid telling too much about yourself, and get the other person to talk about themselves. People tend to like those who make them feel good about who they are. it really isn't that they do not like autistics, it is that we do not give them the opportunity to show us why they are likeable. If you listen to people they will LOVE you. People LOVE to talk about themselves. The more you let them do it, the more they love you.
@@karenholmes6565 Right, but I think you also need to sell yourself good enough to appear worthwhile to engage with from a social hierarchy pov. Nobody who values social status wants to be seen talking to a nobody. I find this social status game depressing. Especially with exceptionally dumb people who want to be seen as authority. They are everywhere. I think, for example, this is one of the reasons why teachers hated me (and after a while I hated them back).
@@gzoechi I was an academically trained anthropologist. I find human culture to be fascinating. I didn't realize it was because it was a puzzle I was trying to crack. Kinda like people who go into psychology to understand why they are messed up emotionally. I learned all sorts of techniques to make people feel comfortable. When you study people and interview them they already feel like they are lower on the social hierarchy. I spent most of my time with people trying to put them at ease and to create an environment where they did not feel I had power over them. I hate feeling like people look to me as being the "powerful" person in an interaction. I don't like being a boss, for example
@@karenholmes6565 I do, or rather did, this all the time. I think I trained myself to be as non-threatening as possible to avoid the inevitable negative reaction. Basically my approach to masking. It caused burnout several times because no matter how hard I tried it never worked one bit. I just learned about Autism a year ago at 54.
I'm glad I never particularly worried about this stuff. I knew I had "eye contact" problems, but just gave up on it. Masking and imitating is too subtle, too difficult, too energy-draining, and it seems rooted in an overly anxious attitude towards other people and towards life. I've always known a lot of people (maybe most people) don't like me. I just accept it.
I agree that happiness lies in the ability to accept ourselves for who we are. Aside from work, I'm not overly concerned with pleasing NTs either. However, I'll still be out here, pushing awareness because I think it's important for our community 💛
I dont like masking, it says to me that if I dont follow someone else's rules I wont be accepted for who I am. That is not on me, that is on those who have no compassion. Narcissists and sociopaths wear MASKS. Been around those personality disordered people who are celebrated by the NT world. I don't want to worship what is FAKE. If love for Truth makes me the odd-ball, well I'd rather live in the truth and not narcissistic abuse and those flying monkey cowards who wont stand up for the victim of abuse but agree with the abuser. These are not people we want in our lives anyhow. If I need to fake who I am then I know that person is not someone I want in my life. Leaves us lonely, but God helps me, and nature is so beautiful. I'd rather be alone in nature than have 100 narcissists and their enablers in my life.
As soon as NT's start the side eye/disgust look, I mirror it back and turn away/walk away first. I know it's childish, but low-level satisfactory, especially if I was making an effort to be kind. Their implosive reaction is amazing like they think they're the only ones entitled to not like us first
Thanks! Part of the reason I do this communication series is to help you explain the autistic experience to neurotypicals in your life. My hope is that progress can come from better understanding. That's my hope anyways 💛
I can get that too, somewhat. I come off as serious and standoff-ish. However, I'm also AuDHD. So while the person might initially have a high opinion of me because I'm quiet, intelligent, and driven, it doesn't take them long to come to the conclusion that I'm an absolute disaster. They aren't entirely wrong, sigh... My mind is a very loud, disorganized place.
I tend to be trusted as well, and people have often thought I was incompetent. It could be sexism. Not everything can be attributed to neurodivergence. Women are treated like crap in society.
I don’t really care if NT’s like me of not now, I don’t like them for the most part. I agree with you, that it’s empathetic NT’s that I have friendships with and NT’s with a shared interest (for me). I don’t like being so isolated, but enough is enough and I have years of experiences to process, I don’t want to waste any more of my life on them. I can never get it right and I always seem to meet the most insecure, defensive and or narcissistic NT’s and I don’t have the energy for that! They are so exhausting!
I think NTs in general are insecure, defensive and narcissistic. That's their primary way of engaging with the world - through competition and hierarchy. They're not interested in ideas or things or activities for their own sake, just as a way to compete. That's the way it seems to me at least. What a bunch of weirdos! Too bad they have us outnumbered.
I live in the woods, far from people, with my husband, who is also autistic. I don’t have any friends. Most of the time I don’t want any. But once in a great while, I think it might be nice.
I go surfing with a group of nt women. I am proudly autistic and they all know it. I have found a very genuine acceptance in the group. I think this is because I am very comfortable being a bit different. If I say something odd or quirky we all laugh together about how autistic i am. In other groups where I am not known, I find the more I am comfortable within myself, the more others are comfortable with me. For me, that seems to be the key.
@@lipotrimloserI share a similar history with this topic. someone told me they missed me during the pandemic because I was the source of entertainment
@@lipotrimloser In the past, I've had people tell me I can be very funny, and usually it's when I'm not really trying to be funny. I don't mind so much, personally. Not everyone will agree with me, and not everyone will understand my point of view, maybe because of the theory of top down vs bottom up thinking or maybe just because they are their own person, I really don't know. It is definitely hard to tell when someone is genuinely decent and laughs because whatever I've said tickles their funny bone, or they laugh because they think what I've said is dimwitted or nonsensical. But given enough interactions and observing them with others, over time I've started looking at the values that people present with their actions vs their words to determine whether they're worth allowing in my life.
I think this is mostly true, but I think it depends on whether the leader of the group decides to approve of you or not. If the leader says yes, the sheep typically accept you, but if they direct the group to shun you, they will. NTs are idiots.
I think confidence can deflect the bullying as you're not perceived as an easy target. My oldest child has embraced their autism and has learned to navigate school successfully. They're definitely not the most popular, but they have a core group of friends and they're not a target either. I'm a bit horrified that so many of you are being laughed "at" rather than laugher "with" following diagnosis. Unfortunately, I experienced similar situations following disclosure. Suddenly my eccentricities became topics to comment on.
@@ProudlyAutistic I'm eccentric too, and I find, one on one, people actually really like me and my unconventional perspective, but when in a group, they get insecure that other people will judge them if they're seen with us. I've had so many 'secret friends' who distanced themself from me in public. NTs are really insecure.
LOVED THIS ❤ I've given up on trying to fit in with people who don't really care, or don't want to know me. I've found most NT people are pretty manipulative anyway, and that's a deal breaker for me in relationships. I've always been rebellious, so if these NT don't want to talk to me, oh well. I have better things to do. Now, it's flipped around, where I'm not even trying to fit in. I show up as my WHOLE ND self, and if they can't handle that, it's their loss. It takes guts to exist in a world where you're constantly being told, and shown you don't matter to the majority. That our honesty and directness is somehow a flaw, and not respected...No, those things are ADMIRABLE qualities, and should be celebrated ❤ Finally taking my power back, standing in Truth, Justice, Confidence in my ND qualities, and anyone who can't stand that....well then, sit down, shut up, and move along. We don't need you anyway. 😅
I heard somewhere that ND's can come across as a bit odd in a way that triggers an "uncanny valley" response in some NTs. I've definitely had people just basically dislike me. I mean, I often know that I act a little weird, and I usually shrug if off with a goofy sounding laugh. Most people don't care. But sometimes someone just takes a dislike to me, or just doesn't want me around. I guess there's nothing I can do about that.
I've experienced similar. Well before I knew I was autistic, I recognized that I was very polarizing. People either gravitated to me because they found me intriguing or they absolutely couldn't stand me. There didn't seem to be a lot of in between and it was definitely different from what most people experience. I think the people who are triggered by us are not your average NTs. In my experience they are narcissistic, insecure, or otherwise threatened by your authenticity. Conversely, they can view you as weak (due to authenticity) and feel they'll get an ego boost by being a total a**hat to you. I hope you have a good core group now and can avoid these types of people.
What pisses me off about this (assuming it’s true) is: okay, so you feel weird around someone. That is not hard data about that person’s character, kindness, trustworthiness, or anything else. Maybe you get to know them a bit better and it turns out they genuinely are a creep or otherwise not someone worth spending time with. OR maybe you get to know them better and realize you were projecting your own weird shit onto them. The unwillingness (or inability) to sit with discomfort long enough - or to do the work of sorting through your own feelings honestly - to give the other person a chance to reveal who they truly are feels disrespectful and, frankly, privileged af. ND people have to manage our discomfort in NT spaces (ie, most of the spaces) ALL THE DAMN TIME. NT people (some of them; i’m on a rant; not all NTs, i know) take theirs as license to treat people poorly.
The neuropsychologist that diagnosed me said I was very good at masking and it would take someone that is experienced with high masking autistics to pick up on my traits. I have a serious resting face and I talk just a tad too long when she engaged me in conversation, otherwise I present as being fairly neurotypical. I also have been unlearning forcing myself to make uncomfortable eye contact in an effort to unmask. I tend to get along well in social situations, even in group scenarios. I used to have to practice this a lot when I was younger, but because I am extroverted and I also have ADHD I was able to learn how to fake it until I made it. I developed a highly confident persona. I was very bullied and isolated as a child though. I think what saved me from isolation is that I was very attractive as a young woman, I had a narrow focused interest in clothing and makeup. People thought I was full of myself until they got to know me and realized I was a lot kinder than my external shell would lead them to believe. I think a lot of autistic women are like me, my social problems came from misunderstandings as friendships progressed. But my biggest social hurdle is that I find it hard to keep up friendships. I do not initiate outings, or social gatherings. I do not ask people to come over and socialize. I find socializing exhausting even when I enjoy it. So while I have the capacity at times to fit in with allistics, and successfully so, it is still difficult for me in many ways. And this is why it took so long for me to get diagnosed, because a few years ago there is no way I would fit the criteria. It is possible for autistics to learn to socialize successfully, but the cost isn't worth it in my opinion.
It's possible for some. Not for all of us. I've only ever been passable at masking. I don't know for sure, because people don't typically talk to me, but I suspect that I exist in the uncanny valley. I'm not diagnosed yet (I'm on the waiting list) but it's going to be AuDHD with bonus add-ons, like a late night infomercial. I've never been able to socialize with my peers, unless they were male, and even then only occasionally. Well into my 40s I have my husband and that's about it. All of my friends seem pretty happy to keep me on the periphery. I don't know who I would go to if I had a crisis I couldn't handle on my own.
I don't think I'll ever understand them. I gave up years ago. If they're really playing some stupid little head game where you have to win at small talk in order to deserve to know them better, then I can't see ever having the energy to even have a conversation. Like it isn't stressful enough talking to them without having it confirmed that they're silently judging you. I'm so over having to try and be "normal" enough to merit a friendship.
This is really interesting! I have definitely had situations where I sit with a group of people especially in school and it was like I wasn't there and I wasn't included in the conversation. As a highly masking Autistic I feel like there's no way to communicate with NT's without the smalltalk so I force myself to engage in that even if it makes me frustrated and drained. I've learn to act interested but as I'm unmasking I start talking about myself more I think. I also have RSD so I ruminate after interactions because I'm worried about being rude or making people perceive me as selfish. I don't want them to think that I don't care about them.
@isabellammusic It is frustrating. We engage in small talk in an effort to be kind, but we're never deemed worthy of advancing to the next step in the relationship. While I think it's good to keep things polite, it's also important to keep expectations in check. Prioritize your mental health over people you'll never please. I hope things get easier for you, it's a journey.
I'm sorry. I'm fortunate to have other autistic adults in my life. I'm "friends" with NTs but I'm always put at arm's length with them. I wish it was easier to find and befriend other autistics. We shouldn't be so lonely 😕
I genuinely hope that being in communities like this gives you some hope. I used to feel the same, but now that I know I'm not alone and there are people out there who would understand me, it's making me much more accepting of the idea of meeting new people. I know it won't look like a NT friendship, but I don't want an NT friendship anyways. I'd like to meet ND people who I can info dump with or parallel play with, or even sharing things with them I come across that I think they'd enjoy (I can't recall the word for it). Regardless, I hope you find peace either through the things you find stimulating in life, or through exploring the breadth of ND people who might be better able to understand you and vice versa. But maybe friendships just aren't your thing. I don't think they're much for me, but ever since abandoning the idea, I've found interacting with others incredibly fun. It's the strangest thing...
Thank you for this video. Other than my wife, I have no close relationship with anyone. Of the half-dozen or so coworkers I am obligated to relate to, two of them are rather narcissistic (I was raised by narcs.) If I were to disclose my autism it would only be a means to lessen the drain of autistic burnout. I’ve already gotten the message loud and clear that my “differentness” puts an impenetrable wall between us. I will look for friendship elsewhere. Sad.
Since coming out as autistic I feel less inclined to mask. If I'm talking to people I like, I generally close my eyes and smile when eye contact gets too much. If I don't like someone I just avoid them. If people don't like me, I just avoid them. Life is too short. Getting comfortable with being disliked has been a game changer for me. It still hurts but as long as there are still people reaching out to me, I consider 50/50 to be manageable in work
I think my strategy growing up was to make it seem as if I was being weird ON PURPOSE. I found the other oddballs (think freaks and geeks) and hung with them. Not sure how I had so much self-condfidence but now that I think about it there was always a kind of furious exhausting effort going on under the surface. Thank you for your very thorough and relatable videos.
It never occurred to me to do that. I was so oblivious to everything and very isolated. While I knew I had a hard time making friends, I didn't fully recognize I was different until my 20s. My oldest child on the other hand (also autistic). seems to have taken your approach. They've embraced the weird. They found that if they're ok with the "weird" label, it's harder for others to pick them apart because it's no longer an insult. Even better, they've found others (mostly NDs) just like them, so they aren't alone.
I'm like this too...I'm an artist, so people just think I'm weird because of that😅 I've embraced the "weirdness ", but I truly believe that NT are the weird ones. 😅
I think a lot of us hide behind a wall of uber confidence. It is hard to dent someone that seems flawless. But that is really intimidating and alienating to other people, it makes it hard for us to know.
Thank you for explaining this, it brings great relief. When we are on the spectrum but dont know it, never diagnosed as a kid, etc., there was, for me, tremendous personal SHAME because I felt that there was something I couldn't figure out that was wrong with me. It was frustrating because if I knew what I was doing wrong, I would have corrected myself. Learning that I am on the spectrum has given me so much relief and understanding. THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK, YOU ARE HELPING PEOPLE!! God Bless you richly!!
I'm glad that's helpful for you. The challenge with this approach is that not everyone understands what it means to be autistic or they make assumptions. I'm always careful with who/how I disclose, because I don't want it to be assumed I'm not capable because "so and so's" autistic neighbor can't do that task either.
@@ProudlyAutistic true, but it gives me the opportunity to educate people, and hopefully get them to read my book 'Living with Autism Undiagnosed '. One person I got to read it finally stopped trying to tell me that Autism is caused by vaccines.
What bothers me the most is when someone says its ok that your different. One person in particular, watched and judged everything i did . I found this person to be very toxic for me . I know longer associate wirh this person .
They sound like a jerk. I had someone similar in my life, treated me like a charity case. It was very demeaning. There are good people out there, I hope you're finding them.
I’ve learned to just do my best and that I can’t control other’s reactions. The energy needed to mask so completely would expend too much energy and would at some point appear fake as well. Live and let live.
It's a process. I'm 6 years out. It took me 3-4 years to finally get fed up and embrace it, regardless of other's opinions. For me, diagnosis was a relief. However, there were a lot of mixed feelings because people in my life did not appreciate the diagnosis and didn't understand its importance.
incorrect question. You've already accurately observed that most people miscommunicate with each other. But you failed to EMPATHIZE with them by observing that YOUR inability to communicate is typical. You think your problems are special, while normal people understand their problems are universal. The problem is on you.
Um, communication challenges are a fundamental part of autism. There are numerous studies on this. Our challenges can't be equated to those of NTs, sorry. Our experiences are not "typical."
@@ProudlyAutistic Yes, I know that, but are neurotypicals better at communication partly because most other people think/feel like they do. In other words, I believe they are using their own mind as a model to help interpret other people. Here's the thing, are people on the autism spectrum better at understanding others on the spectrum?
Agree. I'm generally OK with it during conversations, but can't do it with strangers very well. I look away a lot while I'm thinking too. I do attempt "eye contact" in these videos but do allow my eyes to naturally wander a bit. I probably do better in these videos than I do in real life as I'm looking at an inanimate object.
Wow this is fascinating and yeah, eye contact is a tricky one for me. These are really great, really interesting points. And ty for mentioning the topic at 5 mins in, absolutely
Pleasantries are not for decoration. They give the other person a chance to finish whatever she was focused on already, shift to listening to you, and signal how much time she has. I've been in public, running errands and already tired and trying to track several topics/tasks at once, when suddenly someone is in my personal space announcing a conclusion or asking a loaded question about a topic I had no idea she wanted to talk about. This was very frustrating.
I like having conversations and connecting but it's always been hard to me, now on top of being autistic i also have depression, spent a long time alone in my bedroom with little social contact, I'm finding it so hard to think of things to say, as my topics of interest are different from most people's, besides they don't seem interested in talking to us because they talk among themselves and we haven't managed to mingle, it's painful sometimes.
Do you have opportunities to meet others with similar interests? Through Meetup app or something similar? I did this for awhile after my divorce because I knew I couldn't be home alone. I was usually the awkward one in the group, but at least I was getting out of the house. I joined a group that tried different restaurants, a trivia group, a groups for divorced people, and a rowing club. Kind of depends on where you live, but worth looking into. I hope things get better for you soon.
@@ProudlyAutistic actually i was referring to a current workplace situation where i am feeling pretty lonely and out of place among coworkers, in my personal life i have one friend and i just spend most of my time alone and I'm okay with that.
I generally only have interaction with people that share my very specific interests ….whether they are NT or not it’s primarily topic specific. I regularly offend ppl both entering and exiting in ways they don’t like for some reason.
Thank you for posting. My daughter has autism and I am trying to learn how to have a better relationship with her. This helps me understand her better.😊
Don't like them back is by strategy. You don't want no trouble, don't start no trouble. I don't start trouble. Lord help anyone who starts trouble with me.
I think this is the strategy that most of us adopt eventually. It's sad though that the desire for self preservation forces us to isolate. It's not fair.
Lack of eye contact is bad, too much eye contact is bad, how the hell am I supposed to adhere to these unwritten rules the NTs are trying to impose? If you make silly social rules at least be consistent about it 😭
EXACTLY 😊 What I've noticed about NT people is they're pretty manipulative most of the time, and want you to play into their ridiculous head game BS. They like moving the goal posts around, because it gives them a sense of power. It's stupid, but it's what they all seem to do, and I just don't have time for all of that nonsense.
No one creates this as a rule or imposes it - it develops organically and implicitly like language, and is somewhat culturally mediated, like how humans speak different languages. It might be difficult but it is not silly - in fact, it would have been essential in the past before humans had detailed language. Eyes communicate a lot of emotional content but can also be used to signal threats, positive things, whatever, to people.
Body language is the primary means of communication for all animals, including homo sapiens. Too little eye contact means that person isn't paying enough attention to others or the situation and could be a liability for the group. Too much eye contact means aggression and active threat or dominance games. You are autistic and don't understand these things, or how autism is anomalous in all animals.
Body language is the primary means of communication for all animals, including homosapiens. Too little eye contact means that person isn't paying enough attention to others or the situation and could be a liability for the group. Too much eye contact means aggression and active threat or dominance games. You are autistic and don't understand these things, or how autism is anomalous in all animals.
@Clara-ow6wz if it's really about "spidey senses", then it's real empathy that you lack. Yes, it's threatening when someone can't reciprocate normalcy.
Very relatable. In my current job, I spent over a year bending over backwards to do my job perfectly. But it didn't make any difference at all, I was denied a pay raise because "it's hard to connect" with me and I "appear unmotivated". Gollyyy, that was a stab in the heart. I put myself through hell for that job, and it just didn't matter. To add insult to injury, another reason they cited was that I left 30 minutes early one day. I'd made sure my tasks were done and left because I was having a horrible shutdown that was caused by the working conditions. But of course, they never asked why I left and just assumed something different. But I learned an important lesson: you have to either play the neurotypical games, or carve a different path for yourself. The latter is what I'm gonna try and do after I quit my job. Masking only leads to burnout, and I'm not capable of doing it to a degree that would actually help. Its tough and its not fair, but it is what it is.
Here is what I realized, bosses care that you make them feel important. If you make your boss feel good when you interact with them they will pave your road with gold. It isn't fair, but that is the world we live in. There are some jobs where merit is what counts, but most jobs it is how much the boss likes you and identifies with you.
Agree that job satisfaction and success is highly dependent on your manager. A company can look great on paper, but it doesn't matter if your boss is bad.
I agree that working for yourself "can" be great. Two major caveats: 1) are you comfortable with business development? (Marketing your services) and 2) are you organized (financially, tasks, etc). If the answer is no to either,. self-employment will be tricky. I was self employed for 10 years. I need.to do a video on it.
Another wonderful video - thank you. I'm especially intrigued by your point about not advancing past small talk being a sign that another person isn't interested in developing a friendship. That makes a lot of sense regarding so many interactions I have had over the years.
I keep commenting on your vids, hope that is okay from NT lurker...I am learning a lot. As I was watching I was thinking about cross-cultural communication styles. NT people coming from different cultures have similar issues with each other as NTs and NDs have. I am sure many more people have written about this idea, but I think it is maybe important for autistic people to know that stripped of cultural context NTs find things pretty hard to navigate. Even though it happens for different reasons, maybe it is a bit normalizing to think of it as two cultures learning to interact. I know that I can find Germans way too blunt (feels rude), and some Asian cultures way too indirect (feels manipulative). When we go to new cultures we often have NO idea what the social nuances are, don't understand idioms, and so on. Just understanding how people walk and move different in other cultures is a big deal and can cause culture shock. I imagine that being autistic must feel similar, and that this is really tiring and frustrating.
The problem is as follows. Even if you do understand where they're coming from, you're left with very few choices of what to do: 1.) Try to act more like them, which would be acting/masking and effectively also manipulative; 2.) act as you naturally would, while being aware of how you're being perceived, which will not solve the friction; or 3.) try to communicate what you're about - but then they will still give their perceptions priority over your actual words, which will therefore simply be ignored or even perceived as lies.
Exactly, I like how you outline these points. I'm trying to be more like #2 because I'm so exhausted by #1 and #3. I just want to be me and if people don't like it well what else is new 😅
@@its.Lora., I'd put myself around 2.5. Generally I will act as it seems natural to *me* (like any "normal" person would), and in some situations where I feel it might help or even work, I'd try a quick: "If anyone's not fine with this, please speak now." And if they still won't... Well, I'm not your mom; either you communicate, or I'll do as I think.
@@its.Lora.i'm with you. It's too exhausting to evaluate everything I say and do before I do it. I'm done. The result will be the same anyway. I'm just going to do what I want, and enjoy doing it without them.
Great points! It does seem like we can't win. Appease them and slowly hurt ourselves or be authentic and alienate everyone. I've come to the conclusion that, with few exceptions, we can only have successful relationships with other NDs.
@@ProudlyAutistic, and with NTs who've overcome their assumption that everyone has to talk, look, and act as themselves. NTs with an openness to difference. Loving, empathic, maybe artsy people. Maybe neurotypically a bit quirky themselves. Or with a certain fondness for the quirky (even if it's neurodivergent). However, when it comes to the streamlined, corporatesy people, who're happy doing everything exactly like in the rulebook, like "everybody" else, looking down on anything slightly deviating ... Yeah, with that crowd it should be rather hopeless.
This unique thought-provoking video is what I've been longing for. Other content creators in the community should follow suit with an interpretation of of their own take on the subject of the matter. I highly appreciate this being spoken about and would like some feedback on discrimination within a small population city where everyone knows your name and NT friendships all your life have played you like a puppet and make you feel lost and isolated. I should also mention that NT people are that are in authoritative positions of power that you may have once associated with make you hide from being seen because they may trap you in a local institution so they can fuel their corruption and line pockets. Thank you for the topic of discussion.👍🏼😶✌🏼
It is that way because all the important things and cool things happened in the face of someone not elsewhere. Im proud that ive improved that aspect with neurofeedback because it si so fun to have eye contact and seeing the face of others entirely.
Projection of the more manipulative NTs, we tend to not be predictable or as easy to socially manipulate. To preserve their position of power they will ostracize us or use us a dehumanized punching bag (so no one will listen to us about them being evil).
As your ADHD cousin I can absolutely confirm the fundamental incompatibility. It's really just a disdain at first sight kind of thing for me that happens even before my behavior gives me away as neurodivergent. I think I make average amts of eye contact, but that there's some kind of automatic and unspoken exchange of signals about the quality of my executive function in the mirroring, and they get an intuition that I'm different and it makes them wary.
I'm AuDHD. I didn't realize NTs immediately detected ADHD too. I thought it was more autism that they zeroed on immediately, with detection of ADHD being a bit more situational. Thank you for sharing your perspective 💛
This new rising, and informative movement about autism is pretty cool. Same could happen for other mental conditions, bodily ailments or (professional) occupations, so judgments and prejiduces can be broken down and more people more often can be viewed and respected as human.
I find it ironic how they're always doing the body language and eye contact to seem engaged in other people but in reality they're not actually listening, and we actually are
Times and times again my lived experience has shown me that the way I present and the way I THINK I present (or wish to present) aren't the same. It was especially hurtful when I was doing my Master's degreee and for the first time in my life I met so many people who had the same interest as me and who were just fascinating to me, I wanted to ask so many questions, to some I wanted to be friends, but every time we conversed I just felt an invisible wall, like they said "this is as much as I'd let you know about me." And it wasn't them being cruel or something, it was just that my image somehow ruined those opportunities at being friends with those people. And it was the image I couldn't have any control over because I STILL have no idea how I come across. And I didn't know it at that time but surely I felt it greatly.
I’ve never been diagnosed with autism, but I’ve come to realize I do have some related traits, a lot of which I feel i learned to “mask” since I was a child, albeit using lots of cognitive energy to do so. I relate a lot to what you describe and sympathize with your experiences. People are simply too judgmental. I think the most truly empathetic people can see+feel when one is engaging with them positively beyond how one is presenting on the surface. I’ve found a lot mistake how people express anxiety and being rude/angry/upset. Even things ND people do that looks “anxious” to NT people, a lot will be judgmental and not want to engage with someone who is “anxious”. I wish the world was less judgmental and more understanding. Navigating social nuances can be very overwhelming and draining even for some NT people, and it’s next level for ND’s.
Thanks Karen! Another great video. 2 questions after watching: 1. Do you feel empathized with when autistic people share anecdotes? 2. Do you personally change your language away from "I" statements/self-focused language to make a better first impression?
To your first question, it depends. If I'm speaking to a serious issue, I at least expect an acknowledgement and hopefully they'll listen a bit before trying to solve my problem or sharing their experience. If I'm just talking about random stuff I have no problem bouncing stories back and forth. To your second question, I use "I" statements all the time and I'm not changing that. For starters, I really don't know how. I also think it speaks more to the other person's insecurities/issues that I can't assert my thoughts and feelings without them getting ruffled.
Abrupt convos, crossing arms, poor eye contact, monopolizing conversations (or being practically invisible) describes me to a T. You mention how our habits can turn off NT people, since my closest friend (I was his best man even) said that part of what made him interested in getting to know me as a friend is that other people seemed to have a negative impression of me and he was curious - just like you mentioned. But he also has been diagnosed with ADHD as a child, so is that ND? I'm not certain... Personally, I don't mind being outcastish so much. I enjoy collaboration and friendly competition with pretty much anyone, but just socializing for the sake of socializing makes me anxious and takes up time I'd rather spend on solitary activities ranging from videogames, movies, and books to tinkering with electronics or just keeping my house tidy for my peace of mind. With that in mind, while I used to feel obligated to maintain the few friendships I have and do my best to 'act normal' or something, if I'm being honest with myself I don't have much of a social drive anyways. Along the path to figuring out what the pathology was of my difficulties, I determined that trying to be normal was denying myself and other people the chance at a real connection, and it seems like ever since I dropped my guard, I've had a much easier time getting along with others. Idk if that could have been a 'falseness' that people would have felt I gave off, or maybe now people think I'm even odder. It's much easier to explain when I'm being my own brand of odd than when I'm trying to do things in a way that I believe other people would see as appropriate. In some sense, it's taken accepting that I genuinely have social deficits and unfortunately that means not getting to play the social game, at least not much. That's ok, I'm more interested in things that are more tangible and NTs have a world full of people they can sit and chat with.
@skachor Thanks for the great comment! Yeah, ADHDer are also neurodivergent and we definitely seem to get along with them better than NTs. We share a lot of experiences, both in thinking differently and in being socially outcast. I also have grown tired with trying to fit in. I have my tiny, mostly autistic tribe. It's not a lot, but it's good enough for me. Like you, my social drive isn't very high and I'm OK with that. All that said, I do take issue with NTs treating us (the community) poorly, hence the channel.
@ProudlyAutistic thats fair, nobody has the right to treat anybody else poorly. Another reason for seeking diagnosis for me was that I was acutely aware that my lack of social skills, which I now understand are legitimate deficits, placed me in a precarious position when society at large is so biased towards the social game. It's likely why autistic people end up underemployed or homeless.
@ProudlyAutistic I'd also like to thank you sincerely, for making a community that feels safe to address issues of such a personal nature with others who can understand.
I feel that in NT conversations, whether one-on-one or in a group, there’s always a hierarchy being determined. People laugh at the bad jokes of the dominant person, because. People laugh at you because you’re not. It’s of course not black and white, but perhaps in ND communities (and I’m only slowly starting to include myself - it’s a process) people start off feeling equal. And of course person X knows more about that subject than I do, it’s their special interest!
This is a really great point. I agree that we often don't recognize or care about hierarchy. People are people. This is the foundation for creating authentic relationships but can be problematic in an NT world.
Agree, but for advocacy, it's important to have conversations on these issues. The more content like this that is out in the universe, perhaps we'll start to see change 🤷 It's my hope anyway 🤞
Thanks to going 40 years undiagnosed and through that a good amount of cptsd, I don’t leave the house unless it’s work or interact (unless it’s work) 😢
I'm highly social, I function well interacting with people on an individual level and tend to have a high profile when in a group, I'm always one of the 10% dominant group members. I also feel uncomfortable with eye contact and never make eye contact with others. What I do is look at the tip of the nose or the mouth of the person I'm interacting with and it works well. But, like you say, managing eye contact alone is not enough, it has to be a part of the general facial gymnastics of personal interaction, smiles, raised eyebrows, pursed lips, looking away and back again at the right moment etc. and there is no easy fix I know of for that. With me it is subconscious and automatic but if someone trained themselves to do it deliberately it would most certainly come across as robotic and scare the person they were interacting with.
What makes me sad now is realising that I have also felt uncomfortable around other autistic people, as well as most NTs. I think I was masking more than they were, and hence I was confused about why the interaction wasn't conforming to 'social norms' (and then I'd spend three days excruciatingly going over and over it)🙄Thank you for this channel, I relate to so much of it 🙏
I've had similar feelings and am very conflicted about them. On one hand I'm accepting, but that masking voice is always in my ear, wishing they would stop drawing attention to themselves (and by default, me). It's difficult because I don't want to have those feelings.
I usually end up staying quiet and must so obviously horrible at small talk that i usually end up standing by myself at social gatherings 😔. Seems like im only able to click with Neurodivergant types or the odd NT. Not the greatest pool to make real lasting friendships. I kinda get torn between wanting an NT lifestyle and being very content being by myself. 🤔
I find a lot of people are so cautious and suspicious of ordinary questions that they avoid you if you ask any. How do you get to know others if you can't ask about them?
It's a predicament. Like I said in the video, they do answer these questions. They just choose not to with us. It unfortunately comes down to them not trusting our innate characteristics. So I think the answer is somehow disarming them a bit ("hey, I'm quirky!" persona which we shouldn't have to resort to) or recognizing that we need to gravitate to people like us. That's what I've done. Aside from the few people I've met through mutual friends, all my friends are neurodivergent. I don't have a bid friend group, but the friendships are real.
Yes. Most "NTs" have no time or regard for me. What interests me make their eyes glaze over, what interests them bores me to tears. Most NTs, you will find, also have no tolerance for Math. Or Physics, or Chem, or Stats or Cosmology. They don't want to hear about your Computer Science musings, they wanna hear Taylor Swift or some such. They also don't want to hear your questions or comments about anything because they don't want their world-view disturbed any more than us "NDs". Which I suppose is fair. In fact, being shadow-banned on this platform has an odd benefit: You can say whatever you want without fear of disturbing any world but a censor's, because I don't think anyone will ever see this. It's become more like notes I throw in the fireplace, but that in itself seems to help a little, sometimes.
@casimot. I learned something new today, "shadow banned". Something i also go through quite often. Unfortunately, looks like your comment here was a self-fulfilling prophecy.
How to connect to other ppl (or have interactions that are actually enjoyable) is the big question i have yet to figure out (i'm 37). I had only 1 friend where the interactions were just enjoyable and easy but at some point he unfortunatly turned to others. I never had a relationship or more than 1 date or 2nd base. Now i only have 1 "somewhat-friend" but he doesn't really understand me. Due to my recent diagnosis it makes sense i guess, but even among "disabled" or mentally ill people (sry if this is offensive but i am both) i seem to be the most socially stunted person. All your points make perfect sense, it's a good summary, but what to do about this? I am thinking hard on buying ASS bracelets or t-shirts so that maybe people see me differently, does this make sense (yes the desperation is big)?
@auderotte. If you think people see you as the most socially stunted person, clearly we've never met. Assuming you meant ASD instead of "ASS" tshirt, bracelet in your comment. Had the same idea, but trying to reach a pt in life where i dont care how people see me, the alternative is too exhausting. Unfortunately for me, people see me as the latter without knowing the former is actually true.
I can definitely relate to most of what you experience.. i think i "mask" better than most autists 🤔 I am getting better at communicating with NT people.. my experience is more that because we interpret the world and all in it and react differently from NT, and it leads to many misunderstandings.. said in another way we do not fit the expected social behavior of a NT, hence the "danger alarm" goes off in NT people, and because they cant put a finger on what it is, they find us off putting.. I use the line 'damn i can feel that i'm autistic right now" in situations where i have experienced with me being seen as off putting.. it is mostly just said to make them aware of, that the i'm not ment to be judged out from a NT social scheme.. and not like in "your face" aware, but to trigger their subconscious interpretations of us.. giving them a reason why we act outside the norm, is for me often enough, to change the outcome of how people sees me
I went my whole life not knowing that my face never matched my feelings. People would always ask me why I’m angry when I wasn’t, that I should smile more even though there was nothing to smile about. I was told that I come across as standoffish, that people felt I was unapproachable. Literally had no idea where they got these ideas from until one day in adulthood I had an experience where someone wanted to show me their van fit out, and I was trying to convey interest and amazement in the work they’d done, only to be asked by my partner who was waiting in the car what happened, why was I upset… When I explained what I was trying to convey he said my face and body language said the opposite. 😑
For me, I can't concentrate and look at someone's eyes at the same time. If I'm having a serious conversation, I have to look away or talk very slow to allow myself to process.
Thanks, Karen. 💖 I'm so sorry that you don’t know how to be yourself. 💔 Granted, although i don't feel that way myself, the quiz says im very high on the masking scale... yet i have no clue how im doing it, so even though i don't feel it, the numbers say i also don't know how to be myself.
I think a good way to put it is that we've gotten good at being who we are now. We've found confidence with who we became through adversity. Had I got support and acceptance at an early age, I would have been a completely different person with a different life. However, that wasn't my path. I think there's a grief process in learning to not to yearn for what can never be and find acceptance with where you're at. Good luck in your journey!
yep true storry. I even came ocross pleople that came straight to hating me, just by beeing in same space. Usually i dont have problems wiht ppl. Lately as i started to accept my self more and more, i started to notice that my default state is very off putting for a lot of ppl around (before i was masking heavily - i was fun kid). So lots of times when i am in my default setting it fells like beeing invisible. But good things is that when i click with someone, they are opened person.
People spot the difference, no matter how well anyone masks. It is the uncanney valley effect. You cannot trust someone, who shows behaviour you do not understand.
I feel like I have a bit of an "advantage" because I have social anxiety too, it's "excusable" or more normal because they see my behavior and realize that I'm shy too and they think it's because of my shyness, but it's twice as difficult because I'm always afraid of jother people's judgement and of making mistakes and I hide it a lot and yet every time I go out I do or say something strange, and after I keep thinking for a long time with a lot of shame, it's very difficult to "unmask" and go out and become public in the first place because I have a huge fear of what people think of me and of making mistakes
I’ve always had issues making/keeping friends. I cared, but we also moved frequently, so I made it work. I had good family relationships so I didn’t let it bother me too much. I think my NT family is getting fed up with me
I second other comments - This may not be an ASD vs NT issue, but rather an outcome of social conditioning. I.e. what we are _all_ conditioned into believing is “normal”. As social conformity and individualism tighten up, the DSM get more pages describing non-conformity as illness. This seems to have a positive feedback loop effect, as experiencing alienation from the normative in itself may be psychogenic. A brave (very demanding) sense of actual freedom can be to deconstruct & decouple one’s ties to the naturalised social normative - but this indeed has its own risks. As most things in life, it’s a process - not a tangible recipe based on “facts”.
I got diagnosed with ADHD 2 years ago, I should go get observed for Autism. I had problems all my life. Everything you talked about is my life, other videos I watched was 💯 me also. I don't have great communication skills, and when people are talking to me they say I always look lost and they always ask "you got all that? You sure, you alright?" I can never make eye contact, and when I try to, to not be rude, it's just awkwardly weird 😂. I avoid talking to people at all costs, especially small talk. Please don't talk to me, I don't have the energy to muster up a fake laugh. I also hate it when I have to fake laugh, then I feel bad that I didn't find funny what that person found funny. Pieces of me are chiseled away with each fake chuckle, at least make me exhale really hard from my nose. I can be fun for 15 minutes, then my social gas tank runs out, I only get 10 mpg at parties and 18 outside. I'm extremely quiet when it's more than 3 people, I just observe; "you're really quiet, are you ok? Say something,... You haven't said one word, why are you so quiet?" I'm not good at small talk, I don't want to say anything stupid, if I don't have anything interesting or extremely hilarious to contribute then why initiate conversation. I'm not good at initiating ANYTHING. Even in my relationships, they always mention my mannerisms, one even said I'm like a 13 year old, I'm slower than everyone else, like to process. Any minor inconvenience can be internally apocalyptic, I am WAY to hard on myself, at times extreme self hate. I had a bad self image because I know I should and could do better and be at a better place and be more successful this point of my life but it's like I am playing a game and I am getting mad at the character because the controls don't work when I press the buttons, it's slow, it is frustrating me. The levels are getting more difficult. Everyone else already beat the game and now on side quests. I am on the difficult setting with a faulty controller and still on level 5. The others who beat the game are getting annoyed and some making fun of me because I still haven't made it to the side quests yet. They still can't understand, even when playing in group missions they get annoyed with my character because he keeps messing up, but they can't see the faulty controler, and they don't know the setting was set at difficult. I hope it makes sense.
@therhyt. Makes perfect sense to me. I feel the exact same way. Thought id be more socially advanced by now in my 40s after trying to mask for years, miserably failing. Just now reached a point of trying to be content with who i am, even if society at large despises who or what that is. The alternative has just been too exhausting and thankless. Weird how most NTs have more disdain and contempt for ASDs, socially akward and anxious people than they do rapists, murderers and philanderers. I've done neither, but get treated as such everyday just for being akward. Hopefully you find peace and contentment in this life.
I cross my arms because I have a mastectomy scar that hurts. Before that, I crossed my arms because I have neck and shoulder injuries that cause extreme pain and the only relief is crossing my arms. I'm Autistic.
As an AFAB cis autistic woman I have observed that the people who have the hardest time with me are deeply insecure NT women. There’s likely some way that NT’s communicate with these types of people that I just never learned. I don’t really care if they like me but it can really suck in workplace situations. I usually end up having to leave since I’m the “weird” one.
Do you think Neurotypicals are scared of us? There are some things we do so much better than they do. I think it makes them uneasy that we're better at things and different.
I think some are intrigued by us. However, I think most are confused by us and that makes us a threat. From my experience, they don't understand our motives. This is especially true if our passions align with work. They might feel like we're making them look bad or have ulterior motives when we're just trying to live our lives.
@@ProudlyAutistic OH, I think you're right. I think we tend to be intrinsically motivated and they can't even imagine that as a possibility. I agree that they think we're trying to make them look bad and they get frustrated and eventually mad when their social pressure techniques don't work on us. Explaining this to them makes it worse. It's too bad there are so many of them.
I'm sorry you feel this way. I've asked people this question in the past. It's definitely awkward for them, but hopefully the right people won't mind answering. It might be worthwhile to also take stock of yourself and recognize the amazing things about you. I know it can feel like everything is bad, but it's not. Focusing on the positive can go a long way 💛
This isnt the only thing or the full explanation, but ive observed, having grown up in the 1980s/90s in the US, so much of the cultural things like movies etc encourage bullying the weird kid. Well who is likely to be the "weird kid"? I think the culture has not only excused bullying but has encouraged bullying for so long that to point it out now is an uphill battle. Many people went from child to adult being conditioned to see bullying or excluding the "weird" person as normal. I mean they still bully today even though theyre in 40s. NTs have responsibility to learn stuff too and improve too, but for some reason pointing out that via advocacy many dont think they have to but continue rudeness towards "weird" people. (This can be said for other advocacies and issues too where people think they dont have to learn/change despite marginalized groups and data/facts). For example if a NT still cannot accept that small talk isnt the only way to build a friendship to the point they wont bother with autistic person, then they arent doing their part. Sorry it's true. If the person having to do all the work and adapting is the autistic person, well it's not fair and is discriminatory. This is my experience so i do my best now to not even try. Yes i have to try to not want to be friends with everyone lol bc it's me who gets hurt in then end when i try to fit in.
I don't agree with everything here, but I don't have to. However, a simple rule that will make your life easier: Don't struggle! There are millions of interesting things you can do, trying to please someone who doesn't want you to is not one of them..
I personally don't worry about it too much. I generally keep to myself. However, it is good to know where the misunderstandings exist. Thank you for watching!
If I mask enough to seem cool enough to have a friendship with, then will I have to keep masking to maintain it? When the desire is genuine connection, but the only way to connect at all is filtering myself to appear acceptable....😢
My mom doesn't understand how I can have a conversation with someone and come away without knowing their job, if they have family, their name, anything besides if they have pets or shared interests 😂
I have struggled with this my entire life. Tried to be super nice. My manager at work keeps getting mad at me for hating to make eye contact because I don’t want to look at her due to her lack of understanding. Not sure why I can look when someone is talking but not when I have to talk.
I have a similar issue. For me it has to do with concentration. It's very hard for me to articulate my thoughts while also staring at someone. I often have to choose between one or the other.
I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t care if allistic people like me or not. When I was a kid I worked hard to get their approval and it was always out of reach and quite deliberately. I could tell by their smirks they enjoyed it when I was trying hard. I learned not to care. They were mean and not worth knowing or caring about. 40 years later I still have this viewpoint.
I have a similar outlook in that my attempts to people please were traumatic and I've since learned to be content with who I am. However, I also recognize that we're an extreme minority and things won't get better unless we have NT buy-in. I think it's important that content like this exists to challenge neurotypicals (those who are receptive anyway) to reconsider their opinion of us.
They DO love it when you're not accepted! Thank you for telling the truth about that! NTs are such liars and jerks!
This is me, too. It's just not worth the effort anymore. I would rather just be me, instead of who everyone else wishes I was.
@rongravelle603 That's exactly my experience, unfortunately :(.
I find that some times the people who like us the least are the more manipulative NTs. Their technique doesn't work on many of us because we rarely play the social bs game and so they instantly try to push us away and tell all their friends we are creepy and bad news while we think our social interaction went well with them.
AGREED. I definitely agree that they sense that we don't buy their bullshit and it makes them furious. These people are always trying to smear and destroy me, but if I'm being honest, a small part of me enjoys being a thorn in their side because I know I don't have the same fear of social reprisal as most, so they can't control me like they can most others.
Absolutely agree. That's been my observation too. There always seems to be an underlying issue with them (personality disorders from my experience) and they recognize you're not playing by the same rules. I had a person like this come very close to obliterating my career because I could see through his bs and recognized his unethical behavior for what it was. Most NTs seem indifferent to us. They'll never be our close friend but they're not out to get us either.
I think they don't identify with being neurotypical themselves either, I've seen videos where narcissists and sociopaths also refer to "normal" people as neurotypical and distance themselves from that group bc essentially they're also masking.
@@rongike i don't know that much about narcissists and sociopaths but I think people can be mean and manipulate without having mental illnesses or disorders of any sort.
Plus don't mental illnesses also count as neurodivergence? I may be wrong I just remember reading how depression also makes you not neurotypical but again I could be wrong
@@arurora5474 I personally think that any malevolent behavior (except like actually defending your life) is a trauma response of some sort, some programming meant to protect the person from perceived dangers but idk if they all qualify under any specific mental disorders, I'm actually struggling to understand what neurotypical behavior actually is bc they all seem very insecure and unwell to me 😭
Take heart, because NT people are a hard crowd even when your NT. And my ASD friends are the most genuine people I know. ❤
Thank you for this comment, it's an important message.
A coworker told me that he's never seen me angry or upset after years of working with him, and it creeps him out. This was at a company event with an open bar. I thought I was being professional and apparently he perceives it as being "fake"
You were being professional. NTs are emotional, and not always in the nice way. Having self-control and not lashing out at coworkers is the mature things to do.
@@seanwalsh5717I just recently heard that non-autistics are emotional and they don't want logical (autistic) input
I wonder how often he's seen someone getting upset improve a situation. Personally, I don't think it can ever help things.
@Stevie-J While I've never been called fake, my oldest child hates that I'm so high masking. They say the same thing, that it "creeps them out" and that they never know whether the way I feel matches the demeanor that I'm presenting (which is calm 99% of the time). In my case, it's a result of high masking. I'm so used to having to control my outward presentation, I wouldn't even know how to be expressive with my feelings. That part of me is so long buried. It's actually pretty sad that so many of us have had to disconnect to survive.
@tracirex I think this is accurate.
The feeling when you realize that you've been told off for talking about yourself so much as a child that as an adult you're hesitant to talk about yourself at all. So many times as an adult I've been told I'm closed off or that getting personal information out of me is really difficult... well, I guess that's what happens when you internalize that talking about yourself is a bad thing.
The quiet and serious labels follow me everywhere too. There always seems to be career ramifications every time I try to loosen up and let people get to know me. I agree it's both a learned behavior and defense mechanism.
I came to a few conclusions:
- smalltalk is (among others) about establishing social hierarch. They hate it when the other doesn't play by the rules to get that sorted out quickly.
- Several behavior patterns of autistic people look similar to patterns of psychopaths even when the motivation and cause are completely different
- Thinking before answering instead of using prepared "conserves" makes us appear dumb
- Also (not sure if others do that but happens to me all the time) when they intentionally cross boundaries and they don't get rebuffed, they think of us as dumb and low status. When I then show my intellect and problem solving skills they freak out, because they can't make sense of what is happening.
I think there is some truth about it being social hiearchy. When you small talk you give clues about your social class and values. Looking at small talk in that way I have found the way to win that game is to ask people throwaway questions that give them the chance to establish their class and social status, while not being too personal. Questions about what sort of music they like, or where they last went on vacation, how many kids they have, etc etc, all give them a chance to brag about their lives in socially acceptable ways. The key to small talk is to avoid telling too much about yourself, and get the other person to talk about themselves. People tend to like those who make them feel good about who they are. it really isn't that they do not like autistics, it is that we do not give them the opportunity to show us why they are likeable. If you listen to people they will LOVE you. People LOVE to talk about themselves. The more you let them do it, the more they love you.
@@karenholmes6565 Right, but I think you also need to sell yourself good enough to appear worthwhile to engage with from a social hierarchy pov. Nobody who values social status wants to be seen talking to a nobody. I find this social status game depressing. Especially with exceptionally dumb people who want to be seen as authority. They are everywhere. I think, for example, this is one of the reasons why teachers hated me (and after a while I hated them back).
@@gzoechi I was an academically trained anthropologist. I find human culture to be fascinating. I didn't realize it was because it was a puzzle I was trying to crack. Kinda like people who go into psychology to understand why they are messed up emotionally. I learned all sorts of techniques to make people feel comfortable. When you study people and interview them they already feel like they are lower on the social hierarchy. I spent most of my time with people trying to put them at ease and to create an environment where they did not feel I had power over them. I hate feeling like people look to me as being the "powerful" person in an interaction. I don't like being a boss, for example
@@karenholmes6565 I do, or rather did, this all the time. I think I trained myself to be as non-threatening as possible to avoid the inevitable negative reaction. Basically my approach to masking. It caused burnout several times because no matter how hard I tried it never worked one bit. I just learned about Autism a year ago at 54.
@@gzoechi I was diagnosed a couple of months ago, I am 56. I hear you about the burnout.
I'm glad I never particularly worried about this stuff. I knew I had "eye contact" problems, but just gave up on it. Masking and imitating is too subtle, too difficult, too energy-draining, and it seems rooted in an overly anxious attitude towards other people and towards life. I've always known a lot of people (maybe most people) don't like me. I just accept it.
I agree that happiness lies in the ability to accept ourselves for who we are. Aside from work, I'm not overly concerned with pleasing NTs either. However, I'll still be out here, pushing awareness because I think it's important for our community 💛
I dont like masking, it says to me that if I dont follow someone else's rules I wont be accepted for who I am. That is not on me, that is on those who have no compassion. Narcissists and sociopaths wear MASKS. Been around those personality disordered people who are celebrated by the NT world. I don't want to worship what is FAKE. If love for Truth makes me the odd-ball, well I'd rather live in the truth and not narcissistic abuse and those flying monkey cowards who wont stand up for the victim of abuse but agree with the abuser.
These are not people we want in our lives anyhow. If I need to fake who I am then I know that person is not someone I want in my life. Leaves us lonely, but God helps me, and nature is so beautiful. I'd rather be alone in nature than have 100 narcissists and their enablers in my life.
As soon as NT's start the side eye/disgust look, I mirror it back and turn away/walk away first. I know it's childish, but low-level satisfactory, especially if I was making an effort to be kind. Their implosive reaction is amazing like they think they're the only ones entitled to not like us first
Being left out of conversations stings the most, but I relate to everything you said in this vid. It's a great vid to show the NT people in our lives!
Thanks! Part of the reason I do this communication series is to help you explain the autistic experience to neurotypicals in your life. My hope is that progress can come from better understanding. That's my hope anyways 💛
Ditto. Huge sting for me too. Hurts pretty deep sometimes.
I feel like I can never win with NTs. My biggest problem is they always take my passion as me trying to be competitive or intimidating.
This is how I feel too
Right!
My wife is always like this with me 😅 as if my ADHD would let me focus long enough to compete with her 😂
People tend to trust me immediately upon meeting, but they also seem to think I'm incompetent. I'm not sure what to make of it, honestly.
I can get that too, somewhat. I come off as serious and standoff-ish. However, I'm also AuDHD. So while the person might initially have a high opinion of me because I'm quiet, intelligent, and driven, it doesn't take them long to come to the conclusion that I'm an absolute disaster. They aren't entirely wrong, sigh... My mind is a very loud, disorganized place.
I tend to be trusted as well, and people have often thought I was incompetent. It could be sexism. Not everything can be attributed to neurodivergence. Women are treated like crap in society.
I don’t really care if NT’s like me of not now, I don’t like them for the most part. I agree with you, that it’s empathetic NT’s that I have friendships with and NT’s with a shared interest (for me). I don’t like being so isolated, but enough is enough and I have years of experiences to process, I don’t want to waste any more of my life on them. I can never get it right and I always seem to meet the most insecure, defensive and or narcissistic NT’s and I don’t have the energy for that! They are so exhausting!
I think NTs in general are insecure, defensive and narcissistic. That's their primary way of engaging with the world - through competition and hierarchy. They're not interested in ideas or things or activities for their own sake, just as a way to compete. That's the way it seems to me at least. What a bunch of weirdos! Too bad they have us outnumbered.
Agreed- I’m not autistic but I’ve found that if the average ‘normal’ person doesn’t like me, it’s actually a compliment
@@connorhayes2711 Always.
I live in the woods, far from people, with my husband, who is also autistic. I don’t have any friends. Most of the time I don’t want any. But once in a great while, I think it might be nice.
That's our destiny. To the mountains with the wolves! Lol
@@notaras1985 I don’t think we have wolves where I am, but we have coyotes, mountain lions, and Sasquatch. 😜
@@funniful tell me you couldn't help the fellow autistic urge to encyclopedically fact check me without telling me 😜
@@notaras1985 lol 😆 guilty.
I go surfing with a group of nt women. I am proudly autistic and they all know it. I have found a very genuine acceptance in the group. I think this is because I am very comfortable being a bit different. If I say something odd or quirky we all laugh together about how autistic i am. In other groups where I am not known, I find the more I am comfortable within myself, the more others are comfortable with me. For me, that seems to be the key.
@@lipotrimloserI share a similar history with this topic. someone told me they missed me during the pandemic because I was the source of entertainment
@@lipotrimloser In the past, I've had people tell me I can be very funny, and usually it's when I'm not really trying to be funny. I don't mind so much, personally. Not everyone will agree with me, and not everyone will understand my point of view, maybe because of the theory of top down vs bottom up thinking or maybe just because they are their own person, I really don't know.
It is definitely hard to tell when someone is genuinely decent and laughs because whatever I've said tickles their funny bone, or they laugh because they think what I've said is dimwitted or nonsensical. But given enough interactions and observing them with others, over time I've started looking at the values that people present with their actions vs their words to determine whether they're worth allowing in my life.
I think this is mostly true, but I think it depends on whether the leader of the group decides to approve of you or not. If the leader says yes, the sheep typically accept you, but if they direct the group to shun you, they will. NTs are idiots.
I think confidence can deflect the bullying as you're not perceived as an easy target. My oldest child has embraced their autism and has learned to navigate school successfully. They're definitely not the most popular, but they have a core group of friends and they're not a target either. I'm a bit horrified that so many of you are being laughed "at" rather than laugher "with" following diagnosis. Unfortunately, I experienced similar situations following disclosure. Suddenly my eccentricities became topics to comment on.
@@ProudlyAutistic I'm eccentric too, and I find, one on one, people actually really like me and my unconventional perspective, but when in a group, they get insecure that other people will judge them if they're seen with us. I've had so many 'secret friends' who distanced themself from me in public. NTs are really insecure.
LOVED THIS ❤ I've given up on trying to fit in with people who don't really care, or don't want to know me. I've found most NT people are pretty manipulative anyway, and that's a deal breaker for me in relationships. I've always been rebellious, so if these NT don't want to talk to me, oh well. I have better things to do. Now, it's flipped around, where I'm not even trying to fit in. I show up as my WHOLE ND self, and if they can't handle that, it's their loss. It takes guts to exist in a world where you're constantly being told, and shown you don't matter to the majority. That our honesty and directness is somehow a flaw, and not respected...No, those things are ADMIRABLE qualities, and should be celebrated ❤ Finally taking my power back, standing in Truth, Justice, Confidence in my ND qualities, and anyone who can't stand that....well then, sit down, shut up, and move along. We don't need you anyway. 😅
I heard somewhere that ND's can come across as a bit odd in a way that triggers an "uncanny valley" response in some NTs. I've definitely had people just basically dislike me. I mean, I often know that I act a little weird, and I usually shrug if off with a goofy sounding laugh. Most people don't care. But sometimes someone just takes a dislike to me, or just doesn't want me around. I guess there's nothing I can do about that.
I've experienced similar. Well before I knew I was autistic, I recognized that I was very polarizing. People either gravitated to me because they found me intriguing or they absolutely couldn't stand me. There didn't seem to be a lot of in between and it was definitely different from what most people experience. I think the people who are triggered by us are not your average NTs. In my experience they are narcissistic, insecure, or otherwise threatened by your authenticity. Conversely, they can view you as weak (due to authenticity) and feel they'll get an ego boost by being a total a**hat to you. I hope you have a good core group now and can avoid these types of people.
My autistic therapist told me I'm weird in our last session 😂😂😂😂. I felt like that was the ultimate stamp of my weirdness 😂😂😂
What pisses me off about this (assuming it’s true) is: okay, so you feel weird around someone. That is not hard data about that person’s character, kindness, trustworthiness, or anything else. Maybe you get to know them a bit better and it turns out they genuinely are a creep or otherwise not someone worth spending time with. OR maybe you get to know them better and realize you were projecting your own weird shit onto them. The unwillingness (or inability) to sit with discomfort long enough - or to do the work of sorting through your own feelings honestly - to give the other person a chance to reveal who they truly are feels disrespectful and, frankly, privileged af. ND people have to manage our discomfort in NT spaces (ie, most of the spaces) ALL THE DAMN TIME. NT people (some of them; i’m on a rant; not all NTs, i know) take theirs as license to treat people poorly.
I realize all my closest friends are neurodivergent.
Yup, that was one of my first clues also.
Yeah, that's a massive sign. We tend to flock together.
The neuropsychologist that diagnosed me said I was very good at masking and it would take someone that is experienced with high masking autistics to pick up on my traits. I have a serious resting face and I talk just a tad too long when she engaged me in conversation, otherwise I present as being fairly neurotypical. I also have been unlearning forcing myself to make uncomfortable eye contact in an effort to unmask.
I tend to get along well in social situations, even in group scenarios. I used to have to practice this a lot when I was younger, but because I am extroverted and I also have ADHD I was able to learn how to fake it until I made it. I developed a highly confident persona. I was very bullied and isolated as a child though. I think what saved me from isolation is that I was very attractive as a young woman, I had a narrow focused interest in clothing and makeup. People thought I was full of myself until they got to know me and realized I was a lot kinder than my external shell would lead them to believe. I think a lot of autistic women are like me, my social problems came from misunderstandings as friendships progressed. But my biggest social hurdle is that I find it hard to keep up friendships. I do not initiate outings, or social gatherings. I do not ask people to come over and socialize. I find socializing exhausting even when I enjoy it. So while I have the capacity at times to fit in with allistics, and successfully so, it is still difficult for me in many ways. And this is why it took so long for me to get diagnosed, because a few years ago there is no way I would fit the criteria. It is possible for autistics to learn to socialize successfully, but the cost isn't worth it in my opinion.
It's possible for some. Not for all of us. I've only ever been passable at masking. I don't know for sure, because people don't typically talk to me, but I suspect that I exist in the uncanny valley. I'm not diagnosed yet (I'm on the waiting list) but it's going to be AuDHD with bonus add-ons, like a late night infomercial. I've never been able to socialize with my peers, unless they were male, and even then only occasionally. Well into my 40s I have my husband and that's about it. All of my friends seem pretty happy to keep me on the periphery. I don't know who I would go to if I had a crisis I couldn't handle on my own.
I don't think I'll ever understand them. I gave up years ago. If they're really playing some stupid little head game where you have to win at small talk in order to deserve to know them better, then I can't see ever having the energy to even have a conversation. Like it isn't stressful enough talking to them without having it confirmed that they're silently judging you. I'm so over having to try and be "normal" enough to merit a friendship.
EXACTLY ❤ Same here. Well said!! 🥂💃💖
This is really interesting! I have definitely had situations where I sit with a group of people especially in school and it was like I wasn't there and I wasn't included in the conversation. As a highly masking Autistic I feel like there's no way to communicate with NT's without the smalltalk so I force myself to engage in that even if it makes me frustrated and drained. I've learn to act interested but as I'm unmasking I start talking about myself more I think. I also have RSD so I ruminate after interactions because I'm worried about being rude or making people perceive me as selfish. I don't want them to think that I don't care about them.
let them think what they want. people pleasing is a huge energy and brain drain and it tanks your self esteem. you be you.
@isabellammusic It is frustrating. We engage in small talk in an effort to be kind, but we're never deemed worthy of advancing to the next step in the relationship. While I think it's good to keep things polite, it's also important to keep expectations in check. Prioritize your mental health over people you'll never please. I hope things get easier for you, it's a journey.
@@ProudlyAutistic Thank you!
Thanks for posting this Isabella. I am grateful to read something so relatable.
Story of my life. Now at least I know why I have struggled for so many years. I have completely given up on having friends.
I'm sorry. I'm fortunate to have other autistic adults in my life. I'm "friends" with NTs but I'm always put at arm's length with them. I wish it was easier to find and befriend other autistics. We shouldn't be so lonely 😕
I genuinely hope that being in communities like this gives you some hope. I used to feel the same, but now that I know I'm not alone and there are people out there who would understand me, it's making me much more accepting of the idea of meeting new people.
I know it won't look like a NT friendship, but I don't want an NT friendship anyways. I'd like to meet ND people who I can info dump with or parallel play with, or even sharing things with them I come across that I think they'd enjoy (I can't recall the word for it).
Regardless, I hope you find peace either through the things you find stimulating in life, or through exploring the breadth of ND people who might be better able to understand you and vice versa.
But maybe friendships just aren't your thing. I don't think they're much for me, but ever since abandoning the idea, I've found interacting with others incredibly fun. It's the strangest thing...
Same. 22 years going now.
@@ProudlyAutisticyeah, it really, really sucks.
Thank you for this video. Other than my wife, I have no close relationship with anyone. Of the half-dozen or so coworkers I am obligated to relate to, two of them are rather narcissistic (I was raised by narcs.) If I were to disclose my autism it would only be a means to lessen the drain of autistic burnout. I’ve already gotten the message loud and clear that my “differentness” puts an impenetrable wall between us. I will look for friendship elsewhere. Sad.
Since coming out as autistic I feel less inclined to mask. If I'm talking to people I like, I generally close my eyes and smile when eye contact gets too much. If I don't like someone I just avoid them. If people don't like me, I just avoid them. Life is too short. Getting comfortable with being disliked has been a game changer for me. It still hurts but as long as there are still people reaching out to me, I consider 50/50 to be manageable in work
I think my strategy growing up was to make it seem as if I was being weird ON PURPOSE. I found the other oddballs (think freaks and geeks) and hung with them. Not sure how I had so much self-condfidence but now that I think about it there was always a kind of furious exhausting effort going on under the surface.
Thank you for your very thorough and relatable videos.
It never occurred to me to do that. I was so oblivious to everything and very isolated. While I knew I had a hard time making friends, I didn't fully recognize I was different until my 20s. My oldest child on the other hand (also autistic). seems to have taken your approach. They've embraced the weird. They found that if they're ok with the "weird" label, it's harder for others to pick them apart because it's no longer an insult. Even better, they've found others (mostly NDs) just like them, so they aren't alone.
@@ProudlyAutistic your eldest is fortunate, as I was, to have a mother who supports and appreciates them.
I'm like this too...I'm an artist, so people just think I'm weird because of that😅 I've embraced the "weirdness ", but I truly believe that NT are the weird ones. 😅
I think a lot of us hide behind a wall of uber confidence. It is hard to dent someone that seems flawless. But that is really intimidating and alienating to other people, it makes it hard for us to know.
Thank you for explaining this, it brings great relief. When we are on the spectrum but dont know it, never diagnosed as a kid, etc., there was, for me, tremendous personal SHAME because I felt that there was something I couldn't figure out that was wrong with me. It was frustrating because if I knew what I was doing wrong, I would have corrected myself. Learning that I am on the spectrum has given me so much relief and understanding. THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK, YOU ARE HELPING PEOPLE!! God Bless you richly!!
I find it easier now that I'm diagnosed. People are more understanding when I tell them I'm autistic.
I'm glad that's helpful for you. The challenge with this approach is that not everyone understands what it means to be autistic or they make assumptions. I'm always careful with who/how I disclose, because I don't want it to be assumed I'm not capable because "so and so's" autistic neighbor can't do that task either.
@@ProudlyAutistic true, but it gives me the opportunity to educate people, and hopefully get them to read my book 'Living with Autism Undiagnosed '.
One person I got to read it finally stopped trying to tell me that Autism is caused by vaccines.
What bothers me the most is when someone says its ok that your different. One person in particular, watched and judged everything i did . I found this person to be very toxic for me . I know longer associate wirh this person .
They sound like a jerk. I had someone similar in my life, treated me like a charity case. It was very demeaning. There are good people out there, I hope you're finding them.
I’ve learned to just do my best and that I can’t control other’s reactions. The energy needed to mask so completely would expend too much energy and would at some point appear fake as well. Live and let live.
Still trying to accept my ASD. Part of my review of my life now makes sense and why others ( likely NTs ) did not appreciate me ….. 💞🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻💞👊
It's a process. I'm 6 years out. It took me 3-4 years to finally get fed up and embrace it, regardless of other's opinions. For me, diagnosis was a relief. However, there were a lot of mixed feelings because people in my life did not appreciate the diagnosis and didn't understand its importance.
If normies are so good at understanding others, and have so much "empathy", why can they only understand people who think and act like them?!
Good question! I think we both know the answer ...
incorrect question. You've already accurately observed that most people miscommunicate with each other. But you failed to EMPATHIZE with them by observing that YOUR inability to communicate is typical. You think your problems are special, while normal people understand their problems are universal. The problem is on you.
Um, communication challenges are a fundamental part of autism. There are numerous studies on this. Our challenges can't be equated to those of NTs, sorry. Our experiences are not "typical."
@@ProudlyAutistic Yes, I know that, but are neurotypicals better at communication partly because most other people think/feel like they do. In other words, I believe they are using their own mind as a model to help interpret other people.
Here's the thing, are people on the autism spectrum better at understanding others on the spectrum?
It makes me feel upset when someone talks to everyone else but me. It made me feel inferior
You're not inferior. Instead, judge the person who chooses to isolate you. I think it says much more about them and their character.
Eye contact is in some cultures extremely aggressive. Sometimes i can handle it a bit. Sometimes not.
Agree. I'm generally OK with it during conversations, but can't do it with strangers very well. I look away a lot while I'm thinking too. I do attempt "eye contact" in these videos but do allow my eyes to naturally wander a bit. I probably do better in these videos than I do in real life as I'm looking at an inanimate object.
Wow this is fascinating and yeah, eye contact is a tricky one for me. These are really great, really interesting points. And ty for mentioning the topic at 5 mins in, absolutely
This sounds like a really good explication of the double-empathy problem.
Pleasantries are not for decoration. They give the other person a chance to finish whatever she was focused on already, shift to listening to you, and signal how much time she has. I've been in public, running errands and already tired and trying to track several topics/tasks at once, when suddenly someone is in my personal space announcing a conclusion or asking a loaded question about a topic I had no idea she wanted to talk about. This was very frustrating.
I like having conversations and connecting but it's always been hard to me, now on top of being autistic i also have depression, spent a long time alone in my bedroom with little social contact, I'm finding it so hard to think of things to say, as my topics of interest are different from most people's, besides they don't seem interested in talking to us because they talk among themselves and we haven't managed to mingle, it's painful sometimes.
Do you have opportunities to meet others with similar interests? Through Meetup app or something similar? I did this for awhile after my divorce because I knew I couldn't be home alone. I was usually the awkward one in the group, but at least I was getting out of the house. I joined a group that tried different restaurants, a trivia group, a groups for divorced people, and a rowing club. Kind of depends on where you live, but worth looking into. I hope things get better for you soon.
@@ProudlyAutistic actually i was referring to a current workplace situation where i am feeling pretty lonely and out of place among coworkers, in my personal life i have one friend and i just spend most of my time alone and I'm okay with that.
I generally only have interaction with people that share my very specific interests ….whether they are NT or not it’s primarily topic specific. I regularly offend ppl both entering and exiting in ways they don’t like for some reason.
I agree that finding people with common interests, NDs or not, is a great way to find others you can relate to. Thanks for watching!
These videos validate my entire 28 years of life. I was always friends with kids diagnosed autistic and didn’t realize I was too 😂
Thank you for posting. My daughter has autism and I am trying to learn how to have a better relationship with her. This helps me understand her better.😊
That's so sweet :).
Don't like them back is by strategy. You don't want no trouble, don't start no trouble. I don't start trouble. Lord help anyone who starts trouble with me.
I think this is the strategy that most of us adopt eventually. It's sad though that the desire for self preservation forces us to isolate. It's not fair.
@@ProudlyAutisticexactly correct
Lack of eye contact is bad, too much eye contact is bad, how the hell am I supposed to adhere to these unwritten rules the NTs are trying to impose? If you make silly social rules at least be consistent about it 😭
EXACTLY 😊 What I've noticed about NT people is they're pretty manipulative most of the time, and want you to play into their ridiculous head game BS. They like moving the goal posts around, because it gives them a sense of power. It's stupid, but it's what they all seem to do, and I just don't have time for all of that nonsense.
No one creates this as a rule or imposes it - it develops organically and implicitly like language, and is somewhat culturally mediated, like how humans speak different languages. It might be difficult but it is not silly - in fact, it would have been essential in the past before humans had detailed language. Eyes communicate a lot of emotional content but can also be used to signal threats, positive things, whatever, to people.
Body language is the primary means of communication for all animals, including homo sapiens. Too little eye contact means that person isn't paying enough attention to others or the situation and could be a liability for the group. Too much eye contact means aggression and active threat or dominance games. You are autistic and don't understand these things, or how autism is anomalous in all animals.
Body language is the primary means of communication for all animals, including homosapiens. Too little eye contact means that person isn't paying enough attention to others or the situation and could be a liability for the group. Too much eye contact means aggression and active threat or dominance games.
You are autistic and don't understand these things, or how autism is anomalous in all animals.
@Clara-ow6wz if it's really about "spidey senses", then it's real empathy that you lack. Yes, it's threatening when someone can't reciprocate normalcy.
Very relatable. In my current job, I spent over a year bending over backwards to do my job perfectly. But it didn't make any difference at all, I was denied a pay raise because "it's hard to connect" with me and I "appear unmotivated". Gollyyy, that was a stab in the heart. I put myself through hell for that job, and it just didn't matter. To add insult to injury, another reason they cited was that I left 30 minutes early one day. I'd made sure my tasks were done and left because I was having a horrible shutdown that was caused by the working conditions. But of course, they never asked why I left and just assumed something different. But I learned an important lesson: you have to either play the neurotypical games, or carve a different path for yourself. The latter is what I'm gonna try and do after I quit my job. Masking only leads to burnout, and I'm not capable of doing it to a degree that would actually help. Its tough and its not fair, but it is what it is.
Depending upon where you live, this withholding raise like that could be discrimination and illegal.
Here is what I realized, bosses care that you make them feel important. If you make your boss feel good when you interact with them they will pave your road with gold. It isn't fair, but that is the world we live in. There are some jobs where merit is what counts, but most jobs it is how much the boss likes you and identifies with you.
Agree that job satisfaction and success is highly dependent on your manager. A company can look great on paper, but it doesn't matter if your boss is bad.
I agree that working for yourself "can" be great. Two major caveats: 1) are you comfortable with business development? (Marketing your services) and 2) are you organized (financially, tasks, etc). If the answer is no to either,. self-employment will be tricky. I was self employed for 10 years. I need.to do a video on it.
This is a great video: really touches on important and super relatable points 🙂
Another wonderful video - thank you. I'm especially intrigued by your point about not advancing past small talk being a sign that another person isn't interested in developing a friendship. That makes a lot of sense regarding so many interactions I have had over the years.
I feel NTs get annoyed with me, but I find their annoyance over nothing annoying 😂
😆
I keep commenting on your vids, hope that is okay from NT lurker...I am learning a lot.
As I was watching I was thinking about cross-cultural communication styles. NT people coming from different cultures have similar issues with each other as NTs and NDs have. I am sure many more people have written about this idea, but I think it is maybe important for autistic people to know that stripped of cultural context NTs find things pretty hard to navigate. Even though it happens for different reasons, maybe it is a bit normalizing to think of it as two cultures learning to interact. I know that I can find Germans way too blunt (feels rude), and some Asian cultures way too indirect (feels manipulative). When we go to new cultures we often have NO idea what the social nuances are, don't understand idioms, and so on. Just understanding how people walk and move different in other cultures is a big deal and can cause culture shock. I imagine that being autistic must feel similar, and that this is really tiring and frustrating.
Thank you for both learning and sharing this, I like your explanation and it makes sense to me!
The problem is as follows. Even if you do understand where they're coming from, you're left with very few choices of what to do:
1.) Try to act more like them, which would be acting/masking and effectively also manipulative;
2.) act as you naturally would, while being aware of how you're being perceived, which will not solve the friction; or
3.) try to communicate what you're about - but then they will still give their perceptions priority over your actual words, which will therefore simply be ignored or even perceived as lies.
Exactly, I like how you outline these points. I'm trying to be more like #2 because I'm so exhausted by #1 and #3. I just want to be me and if people don't like it well what else is new 😅
@@its.Lora., I'd put myself around 2.5.
Generally I will act as it seems natural to *me* (like any "normal" person would), and in some situations where I feel it might help or even work, I'd try a quick: "If anyone's not fine with this, please speak now."
And if they still won't... Well, I'm not your mom; either you communicate, or I'll do as I think.
@@its.Lora.i'm with you. It's too exhausting to evaluate everything I say and do before I do it. I'm done. The result will be the same anyway. I'm just going to do what I want, and enjoy doing it without them.
Great points! It does seem like we can't win. Appease them and slowly hurt ourselves or be authentic and alienate everyone. I've come to the conclusion that, with few exceptions, we can only have successful relationships with other NDs.
@@ProudlyAutistic, and with NTs who've overcome their assumption that everyone has to talk, look, and act as themselves.
NTs with an openness to difference. Loving, empathic, maybe artsy people. Maybe neurotypically a bit quirky themselves. Or with a certain fondness for the quirky (even if it's neurodivergent).
However, when it comes to the streamlined, corporatesy people, who're happy doing everything exactly like in the rulebook, like "everybody" else, looking down on anything slightly deviating ...
Yeah, with that crowd it should be rather hopeless.
This unique thought-provoking video is what I've been longing for. Other content creators in the community should follow suit with an interpretation of of their own take on the subject of the matter.
I highly appreciate this being spoken about and would like some feedback on discrimination within a small population city where everyone knows your name and NT friendships all your life have played you like a puppet and make you feel lost and isolated.
I should also mention that NT people are that are in authoritative positions of power that you may have once associated with make you hide from being seen because they may trap you in a local institution so they can fuel their corruption and line pockets.
Thank you for the topic of discussion.👍🏼😶✌🏼
It is that way because all the important things and cool things happened in the face of someone not elsewhere. Im proud that ive improved that aspect with neurofeedback because it si so fun to have eye contact and seeing the face of others entirely.
Great video ❤ Thank you
Very accurate your realization about the small talk of NT.
always asked my self this... why we are the supervillains in their circle?
Yeah...it's not fair...
Projection of the more manipulative NTs, we tend to not be predictable or as easy to socially manipulate. To preserve their position of power they will ostracize us or use us a dehumanized punching bag (so no one will listen to us about them being evil).
Thank you for the video , very helpful information ,also very relateable too . I like your cacti .
As your ADHD cousin I can absolutely confirm the fundamental incompatibility. It's really just a disdain at first sight kind of thing for me that happens even before my behavior gives me away as neurodivergent. I think I make average amts of eye contact, but that there's some kind of automatic and unspoken exchange of signals about the quality of my executive function in the mirroring, and they get an intuition that I'm different and it makes them wary.
I'm AuDHD. I didn't realize NTs immediately detected ADHD too. I thought it was more autism that they zeroed on immediately, with detection of ADHD being a bit more situational. Thank you for sharing your perspective 💛
This new rising, and informative movement about autism is pretty cool.
Same could happen for other mental conditions, bodily ailments or (professional) occupations, so judgments and prejiduces can be broken down and more people more often can be viewed and respected as human.
I find it ironic how they're always doing the body language and eye contact to seem engaged in other people but in reality they're not actually listening, and we actually are
Times and times again my lived experience has shown me that the way I present and the way I THINK I present (or wish to present) aren't the same. It was especially hurtful when I was doing my Master's degreee and for the first time in my life I met so many people who had the same interest as me and who were just fascinating to me, I wanted to ask so many questions, to some I wanted to be friends, but every time we conversed I just felt an invisible wall, like they said "this is as much as I'd let you know about me." And it wasn't them being cruel or something, it was just that my image somehow ruined those opportunities at being friends with those people. And it was the image I couldn't have any control over because I STILL have no idea how I come across. And I didn't know it at that time but surely I felt it greatly.
NT's are absolutely insane.
I’ve never been diagnosed with autism, but I’ve come to realize I do have some related traits, a lot of which I feel i learned to “mask” since I was a child, albeit using lots of cognitive energy to do so. I relate a lot to what you describe and sympathize with your experiences. People are simply too judgmental. I think the most truly empathetic people can see+feel when one is engaging with them positively beyond how one is presenting on the surface. I’ve found a lot mistake how people express anxiety and being rude/angry/upset. Even things ND people do that looks “anxious” to NT people, a lot will be judgmental and not want to engage with someone who is “anxious”. I wish the world was less judgmental and more understanding. Navigating social nuances can be very overwhelming and draining even for some NT people, and it’s next level for ND’s.
Thanks Karen! Another great video.
2 questions after watching:
1. Do you feel empathized with when autistic people share anecdotes?
2. Do you personally change your language away from "I" statements/self-focused language to make a better first impression?
To your first question, it depends. If I'm speaking to a serious issue, I at least expect an acknowledgement and hopefully they'll listen a bit before trying to solve my problem or sharing their experience. If I'm just talking about random stuff I have no problem bouncing stories back and forth.
To your second question, I use "I" statements all the time and I'm not changing that. For starters, I really don't know how. I also think it speaks more to the other person's insecurities/issues that I can't assert my thoughts and feelings without them getting ruffled.
Abrupt convos, crossing arms, poor eye contact, monopolizing conversations (or being practically invisible) describes me to a T.
You mention how our habits can turn off NT people, since my closest friend (I was his best man even) said that part of what made him interested in getting to know me as a friend is that other people seemed to have a negative impression of me and he was curious - just like you mentioned. But he also has been diagnosed with ADHD as a child, so is that ND? I'm not certain...
Personally, I don't mind being outcastish so much. I enjoy collaboration and friendly competition with pretty much anyone, but just socializing for the sake of socializing makes me anxious and takes up time I'd rather spend on solitary activities ranging from videogames, movies, and books to tinkering with electronics or just keeping my house tidy for my peace of mind. With that in mind, while I used to feel obligated to maintain the few friendships I have and do my best to 'act normal' or something, if I'm being honest with myself I don't have much of a social drive anyways.
Along the path to figuring out what the pathology was of my difficulties, I determined that trying to be normal was denying myself and other people the chance at a real connection, and it seems like ever since I dropped my guard, I've had a much easier time getting along with others. Idk if that could have been a 'falseness' that people would have felt I gave off, or maybe now people think I'm even odder. It's much easier to explain when I'm being my own brand of odd than when I'm trying to do things in a way that I believe other people would see as appropriate.
In some sense, it's taken accepting that I genuinely have social deficits and unfortunately that means not getting to play the social game, at least not much. That's ok, I'm more interested in things that are more tangible and NTs have a world full of people they can sit and chat with.
yrs, adhd is neurodivergence
@skachor Thanks for the great comment! Yeah, ADHDer are also neurodivergent and we definitely seem to get along with them better than NTs. We share a lot of experiences, both in thinking differently and in being socially outcast.
I also have grown tired with trying to fit in. I have my tiny, mostly autistic tribe. It's not a lot, but it's good enough for me. Like you, my social drive isn't very high and I'm OK with that.
All that said, I do take issue with NTs treating us (the community) poorly, hence the channel.
@@tracirex Thanks, I guess that doesn't quite count, but it matters not, since my experience is that ND people are more fun to be around anyways!
@ProudlyAutistic thats fair, nobody has the right to treat anybody else poorly. Another reason for seeking diagnosis for me was that I was acutely aware that my lack of social skills, which I now understand are legitimate deficits, placed me in a precarious position when society at large is so biased towards the social game. It's likely why autistic people end up underemployed or homeless.
@ProudlyAutistic I'd also like to thank you sincerely, for making a community that feels safe to address issues of such a personal nature with others who can understand.
I feel that in NT conversations, whether one-on-one or in a group, there’s always a hierarchy being determined. People laugh at the bad jokes of the dominant person, because. People laugh at you because you’re not. It’s of course not black and white, but perhaps in ND communities (and I’m only slowly starting to include myself - it’s a process) people start off feeling equal. And of course person X knows more about that subject than I do, it’s their special interest!
This is a really great point. I agree that we often don't recognize or care about hierarchy. People are people. This is the foundation for creating authentic relationships but can be problematic in an NT world.
I can absolutely relate
I dont want to be accepted by ppl who take advantage & lie.
Agree, but for advocacy, it's important to have conversations on these issues. The more content like this that is out in the universe, perhaps we'll start to see change 🤷 It's my hope anyway 🤞
Thanks to going 40 years undiagnosed and through that a good amount of cptsd, I don’t leave the house unless it’s work or interact (unless it’s work) 😢
I'm highly social, I function well interacting with people on an individual level and tend to have a high profile when in a group, I'm always one of the 10% dominant group members. I also feel uncomfortable with eye contact and never make eye contact with others. What I do is look at the tip of the nose or the mouth of the person I'm interacting with and it works well. But, like you say, managing eye contact alone is not enough, it has to be a part of the general facial gymnastics of personal interaction, smiles, raised eyebrows, pursed lips, looking away and back again at the right moment etc. and there is no easy fix I know of for that. With me it is subconscious and automatic but if someone trained themselves to do it deliberately it would most certainly come across as robotic and scare the person they were interacting with.
Hey you're a decent person. You understand us.
What makes me sad now is realising that I have also felt uncomfortable around other autistic people, as well as most NTs. I think I was masking more than they were, and hence I was confused about why the interaction wasn't conforming to 'social norms' (and then I'd spend three days excruciatingly going over and over it)🙄Thank you for this channel, I relate to so much of it 🙏
I've had similar feelings and am very conflicted about them. On one hand I'm accepting, but that masking voice is always in my ear, wishing they would stop drawing attention to themselves (and by default, me). It's difficult because I don't want to have those feelings.
I usually end up staying quiet and must so obviously horrible at small talk that i usually end up standing by myself at social gatherings 😔.
Seems like im only able to click with Neurodivergant types or the odd NT. Not the greatest pool to make real lasting friendships.
I kinda get torn between wanting an NT lifestyle and being very content being by myself. 🤔
I find a lot of people are so cautious and suspicious of ordinary questions that they avoid you if you ask any. How do you get to know others if you can't ask about them?
It's a predicament. Like I said in the video, they do answer these questions. They just choose not to with us. It unfortunately comes down to them not trusting our innate characteristics. So I think the answer is somehow disarming them a bit ("hey, I'm quirky!" persona which we shouldn't have to resort to) or recognizing that we need to gravitate to people like us. That's what I've done. Aside from the few people I've met through mutual friends, all my friends are neurodivergent. I don't have a bid friend group, but the friendships are real.
Yes I do feel that despite my best efforts still result in struggle to be accepted by allistic social groups. In answer to your introduction question.
Yes, I think it's something we all struggle with. The only exception seems to be when we surround ourselves with others who are autistic and/or ADHD.
Yes. Most "NTs" have no time or regard for me. What interests me make their eyes glaze over, what interests them bores me to tears.
Most NTs, you will find, also have no tolerance for Math. Or Physics, or Chem, or Stats or Cosmology. They don't want to hear about your Computer Science musings, they wanna hear Taylor Swift or some such. They also don't want to hear your questions or comments about anything because they don't want their world-view disturbed any more than us "NDs". Which I suppose is fair.
In fact, being shadow-banned on this platform has an odd benefit: You can say whatever you want without fear of disturbing any world but a censor's, because I don't think anyone will ever see this. It's become more like notes I throw in the fireplace, but that in itself seems to help a little, sometimes.
This is where i start to think people are low IQ. 😂
@casimot. I learned something new today, "shadow banned". Something i also go through quite often. Unfortunately, looks like your comment here was a self-fulfilling prophecy.
How to connect to other ppl (or have interactions that are actually enjoyable) is the big question i have yet to figure out (i'm 37). I had only 1 friend where the interactions were just enjoyable and easy but at some point he unfortunatly turned to others. I never had a relationship or more than 1 date or 2nd base. Now i only have 1 "somewhat-friend" but he doesn't really understand me. Due to my recent diagnosis it makes sense i guess, but even among "disabled" or mentally ill people (sry if this is offensive but i am both) i seem to be the most socially stunted person. All your points make perfect sense, it's a good summary, but what to do about this? I am thinking hard on buying ASS bracelets or t-shirts so that maybe people see me differently, does this make sense (yes the desperation is big)?
@auderotte. If you think people see you as the most socially stunted person, clearly we've never met. Assuming you meant ASD instead of "ASS" tshirt, bracelet in your comment. Had the same idea, but trying to reach a pt in life where i dont care how people see me, the alternative is too exhausting. Unfortunately for me, people see me as the latter without knowing the former is actually true.
I can definitely relate to most of what you experience.. i think i "mask" better than most autists 🤔
I am getting better at communicating with NT people.. my experience is more that because we interpret the world and all in it and react differently from NT, and it leads to many misunderstandings.. said in another way we do not fit the expected social behavior of a NT, hence the "danger alarm" goes off in NT people, and because they cant put a finger on what it is, they find us off putting..
I use the line 'damn i can feel that i'm autistic right now" in situations where i have experienced with me being seen as off putting.. it is mostly just said to make them aware of, that the i'm not ment to be judged out from a NT social scheme.. and not like in "your face" aware, but to trigger their subconscious interpretations of us.. giving them a reason why we act outside the norm, is for me often enough, to change the outcome of how people sees me
Great comment! I totally agree with your assessment and I love that you acknowledge it in the moment when you feel like people are turning on you.
I went my whole life not knowing that my face never matched my feelings. People would always ask me why I’m angry when I wasn’t, that I should smile more even though there was nothing to smile about. I was told that I come across as standoffish, that people felt I was unapproachable. Literally had no idea where they got these ideas from until one day in adulthood I had an experience where someone wanted to show me their van fit out, and I was trying to convey interest and amazement in the work they’d done, only to be asked by my partner who was waiting in the car what happened, why was I upset… When I explained what I was trying to convey he said my face and body language said the opposite. 😑
I have way too much emotion looking into someone's eyes. Sometimes they're just too beautiful.
For me, I can't concentrate and look at someone's eyes at the same time. If I'm having a serious conversation, I have to look away or talk very slow to allow myself to process.
Let’s talk about nothing to see if we like each other, then we can talk about nothing more.
@tow👍. Just looked up "small-talk" in the dictionary. Exact definition.
Thanks, Karen. 💖
I'm so sorry that you don’t know how to be yourself. 💔
Granted, although i don't feel that way myself, the quiz says im very high on the masking scale... yet i have no clue how im doing it, so even though i don't feel it, the numbers say i also don't know how to be myself.
I think a good way to put it is that we've gotten good at being who we are now. We've found confidence with who we became through adversity. Had I got support and acceptance at an early age, I would have been a completely different person with a different life. However, that wasn't my path. I think there's a grief process in learning to not to yearn for what can never be and find acceptance with where you're at. Good luck in your journey!
yep true storry. I even came ocross pleople that came straight to hating me, just by beeing in same space. Usually i dont have problems wiht ppl.
Lately as i started to accept my self more and more, i started to notice that my default state is very off putting for a lot of ppl around (before i was masking heavily - i was fun kid). So lots of times when i am in my default setting it fells like beeing invisible.
But good things is that when i click with someone, they are opened person.
People spot the difference, no matter how well anyone masks. It is the uncanney valley effect. You cannot trust someone, who shows behaviour you do not understand.
I feel like I have a bit of an "advantage" because I have social anxiety too, it's "excusable" or more normal because they see my behavior and realize that I'm shy too and they think it's because of my shyness, but it's twice as difficult because I'm always afraid of jother people's judgement and of making mistakes and I hide it a lot and yet every time I go out I do or say something strange, and after I keep thinking for a long time with a lot of shame, it's very difficult to "unmask" and go out and become public in the first place because I have a huge fear of what people think of me and of making mistakes
Great video!😁
I’ve always had issues making/keeping friends. I cared, but we also moved frequently, so I made it work.
I had good family relationships so I didn’t let it bother me too much. I think my NT family is getting fed up with me
I second other comments - This may not be an ASD vs NT issue, but rather an outcome of social conditioning. I.e. what we are _all_ conditioned into believing is “normal”.
As social conformity and individualism tighten up, the DSM get more pages describing non-conformity as illness. This seems to have a positive feedback loop effect, as experiencing alienation from the normative in itself may be psychogenic.
A brave (very demanding) sense of actual freedom can be to deconstruct & decouple one’s ties to the naturalised social normative - but this indeed has its own risks. As most things in life, it’s a process - not a tangible recipe based on “facts”.
I got diagnosed with ADHD 2 years ago, I should go get observed for Autism. I had problems all my life. Everything you talked about is my life, other videos I watched was 💯 me also. I don't have great communication skills, and when people are talking to me they say I always look lost and they always ask "you got all that? You sure, you alright?" I can never make eye contact, and when I try to, to not be rude, it's just awkwardly weird 😂.
I avoid talking to people at all costs, especially small talk. Please don't talk to me, I don't have the energy to muster up a fake laugh. I also hate it when I have to fake laugh, then I feel bad that I didn't find funny what that person found funny. Pieces of me are chiseled away with each fake chuckle, at least make me exhale really hard from my nose. I can be fun for 15 minutes, then my social gas tank runs out, I only get 10 mpg at parties and 18 outside. I'm extremely quiet when it's more than 3 people, I just observe; "you're really quiet, are you ok? Say something,... You haven't said one word, why are you so quiet?"
I'm not good at small talk, I don't want to say anything stupid, if I don't have anything interesting or extremely hilarious to contribute then why initiate conversation. I'm not good at initiating ANYTHING.
Even in my relationships, they always mention my mannerisms, one even said I'm like a 13 year old, I'm slower than everyone else, like to process.
Any minor inconvenience can be internally apocalyptic, I am WAY to hard on myself, at times extreme self hate. I had a bad self image because I know I should and could do better and be at a better place and be more successful this point of my life but it's like I am playing a game and I am getting mad at the character because the controls don't work when I press the buttons, it's slow, it is frustrating me. The levels are getting more difficult. Everyone else already beat the game and now on side quests. I am on the difficult setting with a faulty controller and still on level 5. The others who beat the game are getting annoyed and some making fun of me because I still haven't made it to the side quests yet. They still can't understand, even when playing in group missions they get annoyed with my character because he keeps messing up, but they can't see the faulty controler, and they don't know the setting was set at difficult.
I hope it makes sense.
@therhyt. Makes perfect sense to me. I feel the exact same way. Thought id be more socially advanced by now in my 40s after trying to mask for years, miserably failing. Just now reached a point of trying to be content with who i am, even if society at large despises who or what that is. The alternative has just been too exhausting and thankless. Weird how most NTs have more disdain and contempt for ASDs, socially akward and anxious people than they do rapists, murderers and philanderers. I've done neither, but get treated as such everyday just for being akward. Hopefully you find peace and contentment in this life.
I cross my arms because I have a mastectomy scar that hurts. Before that, I crossed my arms because I have neck and shoulder injuries that cause extreme pain and the only relief is crossing my arms. I'm Autistic.
As an AFAB cis autistic woman I have observed that the people who have the hardest time with me are deeply insecure NT women. There’s likely some way that NT’s communicate with these types of people that I just never learned. I don’t really care if they like me but it can really suck in workplace situations. I usually end up having to leave since I’m the “weird” one.
This is quite hard.. 😢
Do you think Neurotypicals are scared of us? There are some things we do so much better than they do. I think it makes them uneasy that we're better at things and different.
I think some are intrigued by us. However, I think most are confused by us and that makes us a threat. From my experience, they don't understand our motives. This is especially true if our passions align with work. They might feel like we're making them look bad or have ulterior motives when we're just trying to live our lives.
@@ProudlyAutistic OH, I think you're right. I think we tend to be intrinsically motivated and they can't even imagine that as a possibility. I agree that they think we're trying to make them look bad and they get frustrated and eventually mad when their social pressure techniques don't work on us. Explaining this to them makes it worse. It's too bad there are so many of them.
‘Have you ever felt people don’t like you?”
Uh yeah
Like, a lot
I have asked my friends why they hang out with me out of genuine curiosity
I'm sorry you feel this way. I've asked people this question in the past. It's definitely awkward for them, but hopefully the right people won't mind answering. It might be worthwhile to also take stock of yourself and recognize the amazing things about you. I know it can feel like everything is bad, but it's not. Focusing on the positive can go a long way 💛
This isnt the only thing or the full explanation, but ive observed, having grown up in the 1980s/90s in the US, so much of the cultural things like movies etc encourage bullying the weird kid. Well who is likely to be the "weird kid"? I think the culture has not only excused bullying but has encouraged bullying for so long that to point it out now is an uphill battle. Many people went from child to adult being conditioned to see bullying or excluding the "weird" person as normal. I mean they still bully today even though theyre in 40s. NTs have responsibility to learn stuff too and improve too, but for some reason pointing out that via advocacy many dont think they have to but continue rudeness towards "weird" people. (This can be said for other advocacies and issues too where people think they dont have to learn/change despite marginalized groups and data/facts). For example if a NT still cannot accept that small talk isnt the only way to build a friendship to the point they wont bother with autistic person, then they arent doing their part. Sorry it's true. If the person having to do all the work and adapting is the autistic person, well it's not fair and is discriminatory. This is my experience so i do my best now to not even try. Yes i have to try to not want to be friends with everyone lol bc it's me who gets hurt in then end when i try to fit in.
Agree. Bullying is normalized to some extent as part of the childhood experience. I will be doing a video on it at some point.
I don't agree with everything here, but I don't have to. However, a simple rule that will make your life easier:
Don't struggle! There are millions of interesting things you can do, trying to please someone who doesn't want you to is not one of them..
I personally don't worry about it too much. I generally keep to myself. However, it is good to know where the misunderstandings exist. Thank you for watching!
If I mask enough to seem cool enough to have a friendship with, then will I have to keep masking to maintain it? When the desire is genuine connection, but the only way to connect at all is filtering myself to appear acceptable....😢
We don't like being called typical.
Yeah my eye contact aint no good 😂 i tend to cross my arms because im closed off. Im not up to be hurt and bullied. Im 35 so done with such situations
My mom doesn't understand how I can have a conversation with someone and come away without knowing their job, if they have family, their name, anything besides if they have pets or shared interests 😂
Yeah, I really relate to this 😆
I have struggled with this my entire life. Tried to be super nice. My manager at work keeps getting mad at me for hating to make eye contact because I don’t want to look at her due to her lack of understanding. Not sure why I can look when someone is talking but not when I have to talk.
I have a similar issue. For me it has to do with concentration. It's very hard for me to articulate my thoughts while also staring at someone. I often have to choose between one or the other.
Yeeh🎉
You look like the English actress Emma Thompson (that's a compliment). 😊
Just remember, most neurotypicals are not worth knowing. Where is the neurodivergent clubhouse?