Reviewing Roy's Treadle Hammer. Will It Forge A Knife?
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- Опубліковано 16 лис 2022
- Can Roy Adams' $700 air -assisted treadle hammer forge a knife? How powerful is it? Let's take a look! Powered striking becomes important the more we forge and the older we get. This treadle hammer is an affordable way to access that. It tucks away when not in use and it's aces for top tooling.
Find the hammer at www.blacksmithingblanks.com
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Roy's air-assisted treadle hammer is an affordable way to access automatic striking. It's fun, it's aces for top tooling and it can tuck away when not in use.
Ah, it warms my heart to see a collaboration between two previous ForgeCast podcast guests... We need to get you back on sometime, Steve!
Cheers!
I have the first gen Treeeedle from Roy. I adapted it to my needs by making a lower stand that is on drop down casters. I can roll it to use the anvil edges, the face or the horn. I use a spring pin for the center height bolt, to make that a quick swap. I also made a few saddles for the center of the anvil to allow for easy bevels. I’ll get around to posting these up someday, if it will help anyone else.
Thanks for another video GB!
I got to spend a little time hanging out with Roy in Ohio a few years ago. One of the nicest people you could ask for.
Thanks for that. Interesting tool
I think that your video was a good synopsis of the capabilities of hammer. I do believe it will be helpful for a great deal of folks.
From what you've shown.
Nice idea, but requires more development.
Pros: constant strike angle, great for batch work, easily upgraded with different hammer heads/air pistons.
Cons: strike angle is dependant on relationship between work piece and pivot point, you'd need to constantly adjust it if you want it striking flat on your work piece etc
Suggestions: swap out bolt at pivot for pin and clip arrangement for faster tool free changes. OR use a section of threaded rod (from a vice?) for infinite adjustment?
Green beetle with the treeeedle (hammer)
your rhymes make me go fetal
@@GreenBeetle my favorite acids are acetyl!
I don't know what it is, but I always have to watch your videos. Honestly the only knifemaking stuff I still watch. It's all your fault, hahaha... Hope all is well my friend, have a great weekend, take it easy. (P.S. ya need to come to D.C. so I can ink you up, hahaha)
Does what it does in the spot that it does it! Very profound!! Love it 😂
Out all all the treadle designs I've looked at this one was probably the best of the bunch. Mostly in terms of the compact size, its relatively cheap and if you're going to make the first step into something like a press you're maybe not going to be getting it for under 2k (DIY and big power like 20-50t) unless you go the log-splitter modified route (5-10t) but even so its working our roughly the same as the hammer there.
It may save some people the old tennis elbow and carpal tunnel stuff too which is a problem as you get older, for me I've got some pretty serious cardio problems which means I gas out real quick and it would work for long, complicated forging for someone like me. Even over time I reckon this could put a lot of metal moved in an hour of continuous use compared to the average blacksmith if you set it up to do some certain things.
Worth a look at though for people in the US, I'd kind of hate to think how much it would cost to send it to Australia!
I love the treadle hammer! It is tons of fun and I really get a lot of control when forging. I think that there is still a learning curve that I haven't quite figured out to get the maximum power. If anyone who is well versed in air pistons (I am not) wants to weigh in on a more powerful option that won't need insane amounts of air flow to run please let me know. The piston that Roy includes in the kit is a 32x200 size. Another great video Steve:)
Thanks for your help, Will!
The video only does so much for the dimensions of the cylinder and brand. What is the bore stroke, and how long is it? What size air line are you feeding it with? I used to put together car washes that were pneumatically actuated. I would compare the cylinder you have to the main arm cylinder in a Macneil RS701 or RS1000. Also you can valve the cylinder to slow things down on rebound. It's pretty cool that somebody is trying to help folks like me who've injured themselves enough that manual hammering wouldn't be capable of being done, I just watch the videos and wish i could. That said the entire wood side of it needs to be rethought with steel, it's just a matter of time before the wood gives just a little too much breaks and causes damage to the operator.
@George Tinc the bore size is 32mm, stroke length is 200mm and it is a 1/4 inch line that is feeding the piston I believe, I will double check the dimensions after I get back from work
@@ilmbutton that sounds about right - and that cylinder at 140psi nominally generates ~155J per stroke. It's likely you're limited by airflow with the small connections and especially the foot pedal.
Just some follow up - this isn't that dissimilar in mechanism from a new-style Kinyon hammer. I think you could get much better output of you used that foot pedal valve to control a 3a410-15 (pilot operated) valve, which has a CV of 2.79. then you could swap out for a SC-series air cylinder - going up to 40mm bore gets you a bigger port, and since it's a tierod cylinder, you should be able to disassemble it and drill out the ports if needed. I'd use push to connect fittings like you already have, but much larger diameter, like 1/2" or 3/8".
I don’t know….. it has a whole…. “shake hands with danger “ vibe.
Wonder how this would do on san mai making. Lovely video btw!
I mounted mine to be explicitly used with top tooling, so my center mounting hole is higher than normal. I picked it up to act as a striker in my small garage smithy. It works well in my shop. It’s certainly not a Clay Spencer Treadle Hammer or a Little Giant, but it does some good work for me.
Looks very well designed. I'm thinking that this would really shine if you were batching out a bunch of something where you just drawing down a specific section. Like the tail on a batch of flint strikers, or flatting the base for wall hooks. Great review, btw!
Those are actually really good ideas! I was trying… I wasn’t coming up with much but you nailed it.
@@ArmchairDeity Ooooo - it'd be good for heading nails too now that you mention it! :D
It’s good to know my carefully smithed pun landed on receptive ears! 🤣🤣
Dude this is really cool! you should try making some san mai conastruction on it as i feel like the even srikes would be a big advantage for an even weld.
Question? Should you take into consideration the weight difference between the the 2 hammer heads in your calculations?
Thank you for a great video I know Roy has put in the hour of designing this awesome hammer and I'm very glad that I get to help build out the kits and the price for the kit you can't beat thanks again for the awesome review
Good for roughing work
Maybe a quick release pin for the three adjustments?
Instead of a bolt, one of those marine clips (the loop ones) and a pin would be much better.
Interesting review. You should have included 'award winning guns' and Waynenewtons' into your formula.
😅
Great review! My gut tells me that with passing of time, modifications and improvements will be made. Agree with you in that it would be beneficial to those who have some physical limitations. Personally, I would pass and wait for new and improved versions. By the way, not to be a smart a--, it's pronounced like tire tread; treadmill, etc. Thanks again 👍🏻
I think the reason your energy calculation came out skewed in favor of your arm is that while yes, your individual strike might have more energy 1 for 1 than the hammer. But average that out over 1 hour of continuous striking, and I think the machine will look a little better. Since it's not a 1 to 1 strike comparison. You're comparing the work a machine can do over a period of time to the work a human can do over the same.
Not doubting your newtonic equations here, but I don't think it's a stretch at all to understand your arm swinging a 4lb hammer from shoulder height (24 inches? Or so)as hard as you can will generate more force than a 12lb hammer basically dropping 12in.
That being said .. I didn't think the point of the treadle hammer was for fully forging knives lol
I thought it's intended purpose was to act like a power hammer and help draw steel out. Not shape steel.
I could be way off here but that was my take on it.
Yes, that’s a better use case.
geez i could use one of these. i wanna get into some swords but i dont have the energy to do that with a hand hammer. been looking into making a treadle hammer for a while.
First off Great video as always.
Also have you ever considered forging an axe ? It’s a fun project especially if you have a friend for a striker.
P.S If you ever make a video on forge welding tips it would be much appreciated
I once saw a video about a blacksmith who held the steel over the edge of the anvil and hit equally on each side and avoided that fish mouth 😁 of course I can't find the video but you could try if it works 👍🏼 best regards Johnny from Denmark
Guys, hammering or pressing can create different structures inside the forged part or the results are the same? Thx!
🤔
I'm of the same ideology. It saves elbow grease. With some ingenius top and possibly anvil mounted bottom tooling you could do some solid work. I'm still sweet on my sweet 16 coal iron press though.. and theyve got some amazing tooling theyve come up with. And just to be clear. I'm one of those chair mounted guys that was dumb and got himself hurt so my legs dont have the stamina to stand for long periods. I believe this could be an amazing addition if I can manage the cost. Which isnt easy on my money. And i dont have the foundation for a serious power hammer anyway. I still get misty eyed at the power hammers though..🤣
I wonder how this would go in a mobile set-up. As in, a small forge, anvil, etc. on a small truck. The hammer system could be mounted much the same as a small crane, a common sight on many utes over here. Just a random thought. Probably not practical at all though.
Swinging as hard as a 4 pound hammer at decent strength is still a good way to avoid fatigue when drawing out stock so it might still be worth it even with the time penalty. I am young, and do this as a hobby so I just rely on brute strength.
Easiest thing given the unknowns and inaccuracies would be to just calculate momentum, (p=mv) which would give about 5-10% advantage for your arm over the treadle.
🙏
Am I alone in thinking it’s weird to be watching green beetle at night???
All said and done the treadle hammer is not a power hammer and was never intended to be, but simply the equivalent of a second man for certain aspects of blacksmithing when it called for it. That's why there are power hammers, but the treadle can be converted for this purpose and probably more effective .
It seems like a good system but instead of changing the mounting location I think something like quick change hammer heads would be more effective
Great video! I came to the comments hoping someone would be able to dive into the physics a little more (I cannot). A suggestion for a future video is a dive into that concept.
Many will say "smaller hammer moving faster is more energy" but the physics of the collision is another matter, and the bits of high school physics that I remember can't answer that question, maybe you or someone you know could put it to rest
Yes, many people report that faster lighter hammers work the surface more and aren't as effective for large sections. Also, faster strain rates result in higher flow stresses, so more energy is used to accomplish the same strain, at least to some extent. I'm not sure we're taking enough difference here to make a big impact off the top of my head.
@@knickly indeed, my theory is that there is probably a maximum speed for each smith and their swing, beyond which a lighter hammer makes no difference to the velocity of the head at impact. Where a heavier one will slow the swing (more mass to accelerate) but may have an advantage with it's contact time during the collision. No idea if it could be worked out experimentally - and let's face it, a human with a hand hammer is never going to outperform a power hammer
@@timothymoore7890 I think you're absolutely right. I know there are ergonomics specialists who can measure that sorry of thing, but it's not something that most people have the equipment for.
But I think we could compare energy by counting blows to reach the same level of strain - say, forging a 1" slug (of the same size) to 3/4" thickness.
The thing that makes this usable at all is the air assist.. A real mechanical treadle hammer generates all its power from the force of you stepping on the treadle, and the ones I've tried have honestly been pretty useless and tiring to operate as you're constantly stamping down with your leg..
A trip hammer is much cheaper and simpler to make and usually a much more useful tool due to the repeating nature of the trip mechanism.. A trip hammer also gets its power not from your foot, but from a motor either just lifting a massive hammer and letting it fall a long distance, or having assist springs forcing the hammer down harder.. Even just a gravity-based hammer IMO is usable for a lot of tasks simple due to the fact that it repeats: the hammer keeps pounding as fast as the motor can go, and often more smaller blows faster will still get things done and it's much less fatiguing than constantly working a treadle every hammer blow or even pressing a foot switch every hammer blow.. In fact, to make the hammer more useful and user friendly, I would suggest that Roy look into upgrading the hammer by adding an appropriate air valve to make the thing repeat with just one press of the foot switch...
HAMMERTIME!
I think for me the only real benefit would be to reduce fatigue, but for $700 I'd be well on my way to building a press that would be much more useful
Something like this would also be good for a more mass-production environment when you don't have a lot of space to work with.
Looking like a tilting anvil is in Roy's next store catalog ( anything for a dollar)Thanks for showing lots of downfalls as shown.
It appears to be a useful tool for the right application or people w certain injuries. In any case it’s fun.
I'd think for less than $800 myself and most would make many other choices of much better tools. Basically a few bracelets....seems to pricey for the tool.
I wonder if you could get a lot more work done with the treadle if you set it up with a lower round die.
Probably
Interesting concept but for 700.00 you could buy an electric log splitter and with very little work it can be made into a press. those can be bought from 300.00 to around 500.00 for a 5 to 10 ton model. Just saying for the money and very little time making the dies you could have a hydraulic press cheaper.
Wouldn’t it be better and more efficient to have all the adjustments at the head of the hammer?
Pronunciation hint: in the unpowered mode, you tread on it to make it go. It's pronounced like that.
Interesting. BTW, treadle rhymes with pedal.
IMO the sledge's handle is losing some of the power (after seeing the slowed down footage).
How much more expensive is a hydraulic press compared to a $700 pneumatic hammer?
My press was $6k
I built a 20 ton for about $180 Of course, that doesn't include the required air compressor.
This is a video of Jaso Knight where he do it without getting a fishmouth 😁 ua-cam.com/video/35gN-5BOUuA/v-deo.html
why not like this
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its nice... but not for that price...
700 dollars for that nothing but brackets and trampoline springs you can build it for half that price probably a 1/4 of it
Stop hammer time.
dooooo doo doo do
It's pronounced "TRED-ull". Because you "tread" upon it... step on it to make it operate.
Ty
It's inefficient and limited to a small degree of applications. The best treadle hammers are the ones built like power hammers,i found out they are called inlay treadle hammers. The main problem is that you always have to adjust the hitting angle,depending on the height of the metal piece you are working in order to have it work efficient and if you really think about it......come on...it's a sledgehammer mounted on a wood pole for 700E.......i mean....for blacksmiths...this is really a joke..
Inlay treadle hammers are way more expensive (around 2500E) but one of those will last a few lifetimes and it will be the main tool to use! For around 500E i can and will built one for myself.
"The older we get" we should become more wise and with experience......as blacksmiths,we should see the value on the efficiency of the tools,not the price tag. If the price tag is way out there,we can make our own tools.
I became interested in tools to help me on my workflow,i have seen all the hitting mechanisms out there,from old inventions to new ones and without electricity....the best in any way is the inlay treadle hammer. There is not even a question about it.
I am sorry if i seem a little aggressive ,i don't have anything against the manufacturer ,it's just the tool..... I have seen his video from the last year,explaining some things about the "tool" and didn't changed anything from my opinion on it. For a blacksmith ,efficiency comes in having the right tool for the right job as it helps the workflow. An inlay treadle hammer,with interchangeable heads is perfection for any blacksmith out there.
Saves wear on your arm and joints but for me it seems unwieldy. If I had a contract to do 1k or 10k simple pieces, I would def reconsider. I tried to be positive.
$700?!?! Just learn how to swing a hammer better and save that money for something that will be worth more in the long run!
Plus most companies offer monthly payment plans. So $700 towards a coal iron works 12 ton press sounds like a better deal.
this thing cost to much. I bild this thing out of trash!. My Inline Treadlehammer, with 140 lbs cost 190 dollars and its much more efficient
I don't think it's pseudoscience more like back yard physics and mathematics I bet smarter everyday could help you out.
Idea, instead of doing complex math...go redneck on it; lay down a 1/4" kiss block on the anvil, get a piece of 3/8" or 1/2" stock, and see how many swings it takes to reach the kiss block with each? It's not super mathematic, but if (for example) the hand hammer gets to the kiss block in 11 swings and the treadle needs 19, then the treadle hammer is about 57% as effective as the hand hammer.