I was able to get Russel to spill the beans on what BCG they were using about a week ago and went to take a look and they were already sold out. In fact, almost all BCG manufacturers are sold out minus a very few cheapo depot phosphate coated manufacturers. Even Anderson is completely out of their run of the mill milspec BCGs.
Again - gotta say it. I love everyone involved with this channel and group of channels that run under the same 'banner' as it were. You are all awesome people and I absolutely love all of your content.
@@SA-xf1eb agreed, I'll take that dust cover anyway. I've never actually used a forward assist unless I was literally hand loading rounds in my barrel and quietly locking the bolt
It continues to amuse me how often "yeah, turns out Stoner got it right sixty years ago, but his technology held him back" ends up the conclusion you guys find from your testing. Shows just how far ahead of everyone else he and his team were that technologies just coming online in the last few years are what you need just to make his design what it was meant to be.
You know those fancy carbon fibre composite barrels that came on the market recently? Stoner blew up an AR-10 prototype barrel with a similar idea, but with aluminium instead of carbon. I'm 90% sure if the guy had moved on to precision rifle he'd have come up with the Structured Barrel idea, too.
Small Arms Solution has a great three part series on various AR10/15 BCG that include heavy redesigned ones. I recommend giving it a watch. I personally went with Black Rifles Arms with its polymer buffer.
I've not owned a chrome coated BCG, however my melonite/nitride coated BCGs show very little wear after countless rounds and clean with very little effort.
You made the right call. The HMB bolt from Young represents both a design improvement as well as a metal treatment improvement. Stoner would do. The only other thing I might consider is the KAC E3 bolt. If you could have the HMB pin hole and the E3 lugs, that'd be ace, though the E3 does have a smaller diameter cam pin hole bored through to try and accomplish the same thing.
I was in total agreement with this video until the end where Karl said that this is the best BCG on the market. LMT's enhanced BCG and corresponding bolt is objectively the best on the market for mil spec compatible guns. The extractor on the bolt is better, the metal that it is made of is stronger than carpenter 158 or 9310, and the locking lugs are better designed then a standard bolt. After working on civilian and police rifles for the past decade I have never seen a broken LMT, but I've encountered dozens of standard bolts that have been broken at the cam pin, locking lugs, or as a result of bolt elongation at the cam pin hole that cussed tolerance stacking issues with short fitting pins.
Perhaps a comparison between a Chrome BCG and a Nickel Boron BCG? I am curious why one and not the other since they both seem to do the same thing. Very much interested in you opinion on it.
Man I wish I could get a BCG like that for my service weapon... Cleaning the BCG to Army standards is always such a pain in the ass, this chrome plating would make life so much easier
Nothing is stopping you except your unwillingness to accept punishment. If you have a commission, you can jam whatever internals you want in there and nobody will bother you. Speaking from experience.
Just ordered my complete KP 15 lower from Brownells. Looking forward to getting this out to the range! Kudos to all involved in getting this excellent idea made real!
I get that the lug is taking the load, but there's no staking on the carrier key screws. Those could still come loose, walk out and cause problems, unless Young uses some thread locker.
There's some companies that adamantly claim that if they're torqued to the correct ft. pounds, then staking is unnecessary. I'm not experienced with those products, but it's something to think about
I would recommend you also consider a DLC (diamond like coating) or PVD(Physical Vapour Deposition) coat. Used Ionbond in Europe for this before, but I'm sure you'll find a local vendor in the USA.
ordered KP15 lower number two this week. it is what i am switching all mine to. very impressed....look great feels stout and solidly made. now we need STICKERS!!!
You're arbitrarily switching all your lowers to a lower/stock/grip you've never even seen in person? I admire your faith my guy Or are they finally shipping?
I’m still a big supporter of nitriding. Should be an extremely hard surface, while also not effecting final dimensions like a coating. Also can’t come off the steel, only wear through.
agree, My Nitrited Faxon BCGs are slick and easy to clean , The tail end of the bolt gets caked but it is the same here, wish there was a quick way to clean it without a scraper 😄
@@zedhiro6131 I have DLC coated knives and it is durable, but will surely flake with hard usage. I suppose prep work and the method of applications matters but at the end of the day it is a coating like chrome, TiN, NiB, etc.
Happy holidays Karl and Russell, hope you guys are doing well. Always appreciate the videos you guys make and I look forward to the rest of the WWSD2020 series.
I am surprised that one of the Nitrided BCG's didn't make the cut. As Nitriding is a surface hardening process instead of a plating one, there isn't the possibility of it ever flaking. I am more familiar with Nitrided metal cutting tools, where the process is used for it's wear resistance and maintaining surface integrity at high temperatures. I am not familiar with how the two processes compare with adhesion of foreign materials. Also Hard Chrome is a very nasty process that generates a lot of hazardous waste. Many companies that once did hard chroming, just aren't doing it any more because of the expense and waste products. I am in no way disagreeing with the choice, as I do not have enough information to do so. I'm just surprised. Thanks guys, Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Nitrided bolts love to sheer. Is it the nitride? Is it the 9310 that they typically are? Is it both? I don’t know, but I know it’s the most common trait I see in low round count sheered bolt lugs
@@ShawnHinck That is interesting. Nitriding being a surface hardening process, it might tend to make the surface more brittle and prone to micro fractures. These then could propagate into the underlying material. Just a thought.
I wonder why you didn't look into a coating like TiN, Nickel Boron or DLC. The coefficient of friction is objectively superior (although TiN is a little gaudy I'll admit).
He did mention other finishes, "they all represent a significant improvement over phosphate" I think is what he said. I'm a big fan of the Obsidian electroless plating done by TR enabling. It is rediculously easy to clean, I put 200 rounds through and everything just wiped right off, I would love to see someone with the resources to put a few thousand rounds through a gun with that coating.
The main disadvantages to hard chrome compared to other modern low friction corrosion resistant coatings is the coating tolerances and environmental impact if you care about that. I think the hardness are wear characteristics are marginally different, you can get nickel boron coatings just as hard if not harder than hard chrome and electroless nickel can have better friction coefficient but they are all fairly close. The other big advantage to some coatings like electroless nickel is the cost (mostly due to the lack of environmental impact)
@Jack Mehoff they are not stronger, they are harder. Unfortunately they are orders of magnitude thinner than industrial hard chroming, therefore no matter how hard they are, they will wear off faster than a hard chrome finish.
Young doesn't believe in staking. They believe that with a proper threadlocker and proper torquing that staking is entirely irrelevant, which is generally true.
My latest build was WWSD inspired, but I settled for the parts I could find in stock instead of the components that I thought would be most ideal for me. It turned out perfect for my needs, though. Definitely lighter than my SOCOM profile rifle with a quad rail and closer to the original lightweight ideal. BCM M4gery barrel, BCM lo-pro gas block, Fortis Rev II rail, Magpul MOE SL-K stock, and Sig Bravo4 optic. I went with the Surefire OBC and have no regrets. Much less harsh recoil than the original BCM BCG that I was hotswapping between guns and more controllable controlled pairs, even though the gun started out with very little recoil.
@@atticuswise6076 Then why talk about supposedly more controllable paired shots instead of controllable full auto? Unless your rifle really is select fire, you bought a stupid gimmick.
If this was reddit or anything else you could have gone: "lol just chrome it" Instead we got a nice long explanation of why and you actually showed it beeing cleaned. Thank you Carl for you awesome videos!
The Daniel Defense full hard chrome BCG has been my first choice for a while. This does look good though. I like that recoil lug in the gas key area and the single cam pin hole. My lower shipped from Brownells yesterday !
I wonder if, given the lot size Brownells will probably be buying these in, they could get Young to make a version without the forward assist notches? It really shouldn't be a big deal, considering it involves skipping some machining steps, not adding them, and it would look more at home in an upper with no forward assist.
when it comes to the coating, I don't see any advantage of the chrome vs other high end coatings. PVD and Nickel Boron both have inherent lubricity and wipe off carbon build up easily.
Only long term testing will tell. The main reviews I've seen are all by people with comparitively low round counts over a short duration. Hardly a real study. That being said, I went with nickel boron myself. Knew going into it that it was a gamble though.
Nitriding is a lot cheaper than chroming, but it has a lot of the same benefits such as great surface hardness, corrosion resistance and slickness. My go to bcg for a build, an Aero Precision no logo nitride BCG, is like 5 bucks more expensive than their phosphate version.
Is the carrier key not staked?! Recoil lug or not I don’t trust screws in a high heat dynamic environment to stay tight. Everything else about BCG seems well thought out so not having screws staked seems odd.
I think karls head is in the right place but without the knowledge of a gunsmith like Chad I dont think he has enough data to make a truly informed decision
@@shermonruler Yes. So it's you who has to be the judge. If you went to his channel looking for an answer, you'll walk away thinking every part made by everyone sucks.
For completion's sake, I think it would be nice to know what other bcg's and coatings were considered, and how they fell short. It would also help develop an idea of what Y/M did right in comparison, so people can know what to look for when assembling a rifle. Curious that the key isn't staked on the Y/M. Concerning the Surefire Enhanced BCG, the additional dwell time from the cam path could help with gas control during suppressed firing, which is much more common among firearm owners that full-auto operation.
My WWSD has a brownells TiN ightweight BCG, and instead of the silent spring, I’m using an Enidine hydraulic buffer. The TiN makes it far easier to clean and that’s the best part imo
@@Omnis2 it's only for the very end of travel, where felt recoil is most noticable. Switching to a 6 oz buffer smoothed out a previously uncomfortable 5.56 pistol with a too light buffer (impacted at end of travel). Switching to a soft buffer material from the joke plastic 'buffer' also makes a big difference in felt recoil.
I wonder if Young's ever actually stakes down the gas key screws. You know, the one area where BCGs actually fail noticeably? Gas key screws backing out when not tightened properly and staked, causing gas leakage and short-stroking? That ring a bell?
They don't. People have been calling Young out on it for over a decade and Young keeps doubling down on stupid, saying "BuT wE uSeD LoCkTiTe YoU gUyS." If they were going to change, they would have changed by now.
@@Paelorian Yep. Nothing wrong with a belt and braces approach. Making the conscious decision NOT to take the screws just seems foolhardy when it's such a simple thing to do.
Question: instead of using screws and a recoil lug, why not make a monolithic bolt carrier like Voodoo Innovations? An integral gas key seems like the logical next step. Add clearance for a roller cam pin while you're at it.
Amen. A properly torqued and staked MIM gas key is better than a milled one with a gimmicky lug that's only held on with threadlocker and Harbor Freight quality bolts.
Best bcg IMHO is still the tried and true phosphate milspec bcg.. My theory is once dry carbon sticks to the outside of a carrier and bolt it's all the same(ie dry/rough); except phosphate holds lube and continues to dilute the carbon and run smooth. I dunno, I've run all the fancy coatings/carriers and found myself going back to good ol c158 milspec bcgs because I've had less issues with them.
Hydrogen embrittlement is caused by improper heat treating and can even effect Chromed parts. However, hard chroming is more well practiced and familiar with suppliers, so the process plan is more stable for quality purposes. All comes down to the supplier, basically.
@@SuspiciousGanymede I have a few thousand rounds on each of 2 NiB BCGs and neither has any flaking or noticeable wear that I've found. 1 is a PSA and the other is Aero. I have had 2 other bolts that have phosphate coatings and the on 1 the chrome ring on the actual bolt is showing some flaking of the chrome. It's a CMMG manufacture. Now, I'm just 1 dude on the internet with a handful of bolts but I'm only buying NiB BCGs if possible. I did just buy a AR10 BCG that has a Black Nitride coating, as it was literally the only 6.5 Creedmoor bolt I could find. Haven't had any rounds through it yet, waiting on finding a good handguard to finish the build but am curious as to how the black nitride finish holds up. This BCG was manufactured by Rubber City for any curious. Sorry, that got long-winded.
@@thereallocke8065 I've ran a nickel boron bcg in a firearm with a binary trigger for as close to full auto testing as I can get, and I've not noticed any wear after 1,000 or so rounds
How would the chrome finish compare to a nitride finish? I know that nitride is supposed to have similar (although likely inferior) cleaning and lubrication qualities, but is that worth the extra money for a chrome bcg? I do think you were right about the recoil lug and the bolt not being completely bored out though. Keep up the great work!
IME my nitrided bolt from brownells (not the WWSD2020 bolt) has wear after ~1000 rounds. Not sure what it means exactly, but there’s a data point for you.
@@509Gman Wear, or the black worn off? As I understand it the color is just a surface oxide layer that is expected to rub off at wear points, nitriding is case hardening that goes far deeper than that.
Was the POF improved bolt carrier with roller cam pin and milled in gas key ever used in your testing? Just curious because it is one of my favorites. It is expensive however.
No offense but I feel like this video fell short for the series. I started skipping through once it turned into a "look at how easily it cleans up" type of deal so maybe I missed something, but expected more discussion on how different mfgs are approaching enhancements for things like the bolt lugs, cam pin paths, carrier modifications. Nothing I saw convinces me that the young bcg is the "best". Just providing feedback. Look forward to following the 2020 project.
No one manufacturer has included all of the minor improvements that have been done to dozens of alternative BCGs on the market, and this one is the one that has the improvements and is chromed, as we believe is the right answer, at this time. If someone wants to license the "improved cam pin path" and the "improved bolt lugs" along with the improvements included in this Young BCG (which are the most important ones) and then create a chrome BCG at a viable price point, then that would be interesting. At this time, that is not the case.
@@InrangeTv So you'll admit that it's what you believe to be the best answer at this time? I emphasize the you believe part; because in the video, you, in a very decisive manner, outright declared the YM BCG to be the best on the market. That's the arrogance people are getting effing sick of in you guys
@@InrangeTv I did go through and watch it again. You were correct there were a few things I missed but I still feel generally how I did in the first comment. TiN,NiB,CVD coatings all wipe clean similarly, no comparing the hard chrome to any other options on a technical level. Really the only thing that seems like it was the deal maker on this one is the bolt not drilled through all the way for the cam pin which in theory should make it stronger, but how thin is it down there, would it just crack at the top anyway. Etc. I'm a fan of the channel, don't take this the wrong way. :)
I really wish we could combine the best features of this bcg with the best features of the LMT Enhanced bcg. Unfortunately patents don't work that way. The LMT bolt head and extractor is just better. The increased dwell time from the LMT is hands down better for a carbine or even mid length. But it comes phosphated, and doesn't include the bolt key and cam pin hole reinforcement of the Young.
if you dislike the phosphate I'd say take it to a coating shop and get a nitride finish, it has all the cleaning advantages of a chrome finish without the downside of it flaking off or corroding underneath like a chrome one.
@@KI.765 And just fun I'd add the POF USA roller cam pin. Just staked one onto my latest build, haven't gotten to test it yet but hand cycling is noticeably smoother, as though it was on a roller bearing. Because it is.
I’ve been saying for the past two years why not a young manufacturing chrome, and I’ve been trying to buy one for the last year, they’ve been out of stock almost all 2020, hopefully with them being adopted for the wwsd they’d ramp up production.
I wonder what the failure mode with the short cam pin will be versus the standard though, and if it will start having issues before or after a standard
I wondered this as well, but I looked up the material they use for the cam pins, and it's a stupidly strong steel. Cannot recall the designation, but it's easy to find. I'm no longer worried about it
Is there any better way to get a Young bcg than there website? Ive been looking for a chrome bcg on their site for years and never seen one in stock...
Sign up for the "notify me when this product is back in stock" thing. I got first pick when they did a run of their chromed slickside BCGs because they emailed me about it asking to help gauge interest.
I used a YM M16 Chrome BCG when I was building my 2nd AR-15 (which I got rid of couple years later). Now after watching this video, I wished I kept it or bought one when I was building my more recent AR build. Also, what's the part number for the BCG used in the video? YM has more than one chrome BCG on offer.
Every time I hear “BCG” I think of the tuberculosis vaccine... I know it’s “bolt carrier group” in this context but the immunologist in me can’t help but jump straight to disease and vaccines.
That's a lot like the sharps rifle company bolt I forget what that one is but I believe it's nickel and boron and it wipes off but I would like to try that
They all work well, even phosphate (just oil it more often). Companies have a vested interest in making new technology to keep us buying even unnecessarily.
"Follow the teachings of Stoner and you shall ride eternal; shiny and chrome." - This Spake Karlthustra
You are awaited in Valhalla!
Very Nietzsche
@@Chiller01 No! very Mad Max (reboot)
WITNESS ME!
Or you could think for yourselves. What a concept
And just like that, Young Manufacturing is sold out on bolt carriers Christmas Eve.
I've never seen a bcg in stock at young, its nothing new unfortunetly.
They don't stake their carrier keys and use sub standard attachment screws. This is a bad choice for a hard use rifle.
Lmao, yup.
I was able to get Russel to spill the beans on what BCG they were using about a week ago and went to take a look and they were already sold out. In fact, almost all BCG manufacturers are sold out minus a very few cheapo depot phosphate coated manufacturers. Even Anderson is completely out of their run of the mill milspec BCGs.
Young doesn't even stake their gas keys.
Again - gotta say it. I love everyone involved with this channel and group of channels that run under the same 'banner' as it were.
You are all awesome people and I absolutely love all of your content.
Much appreciated!
I'm a fan of chrome BCGs as well 👌🏽
Sionics NP3 BCG?
That’s how it originally was intended
I mean we could chrome all our BCGs, but then what what would we have all our PVTs do with their free time? - Big Army, probably
screw you for telling the truth and have my like
They also don’t need the dust cover at all, but then what you well at them for not having their rifle secure?
@@SA-xf1eb agreed, I'll take that dust cover anyway. I've never actually used a forward assist unless I was literally hand loading rounds in my barrel and quietly locking the bolt
It continues to amuse me how often "yeah, turns out Stoner got it right sixty years ago, but his technology held him back" ends up the conclusion you guys find from your testing.
Shows just how far ahead of everyone else he and his team were that technologies just coming online in the last few years are what you need just to make his design what it was meant to be.
Materials technology has always been a limiting factor for mechanical engineers
Exactly. Did Sullivan say in their interview that they weren't able to finish the BCG when the design was sold to Colt and needed to be heavier?
@@panzer5033 something like that
"Guess you guys aren't ready for that yet. But your grandkids are gonna love it!"
You know those fancy carbon fibre composite barrels that came on the market recently? Stoner blew up an AR-10 prototype barrel with a similar idea, but with aluminium instead of carbon. I'm 90% sure if the guy had moved on to precision rifle he'd have come up with the Structured Barrel idea, too.
Small Arms Solution has a great three part series on various AR10/15 BCG that include heavy redesigned ones. I recommend giving it a watch. I personally went with Black Rifles Arms with its polymer buffer.
new wwsd2020 video?
it is christmas indeed
I've not owned a chrome coated BCG, however my melonite/nitride coated BCGs show very little wear after countless rounds and clean with very little effort.
are you thee shitbrick?!
You made the right call. The HMB bolt from Young represents both a design improvement as well as a metal treatment improvement. Stoner would do. The only other thing I might consider is the KAC E3 bolt. If you could have the HMB pin hole and the E3 lugs, that'd be ace, though the E3 does have a smaller diameter cam pin hole bored through to try and accomplish the same thing.
I was in total agreement with this video until the end where Karl said that this is the best BCG on the market. LMT's enhanced BCG and corresponding bolt is objectively the best on the market for mil spec compatible guns. The extractor on the bolt is better, the metal that it is made of is stronger than carpenter 158 or 9310, and the locking lugs are better designed then a standard bolt.
After working on civilian and police rifles for the past decade I have never seen a broken LMT, but I've encountered dozens of standard bolts that have been broken at the cam pin, locking lugs, or as a result of bolt elongation at the cam pin hole that cussed tolerance stacking issues with short fitting pins.
Any Experience with Sharps Relia-Bolt.
Perhaps a comparison between a Chrome BCG and a Nickel Boron BCG? I am curious why one and not the other since they both seem to do the same thing. Very much interested in you opinion on it.
Man I wish I could get a BCG like that for my service weapon... Cleaning the BCG to Army standards is always such a pain in the ass, this chrome plating would make life so much easier
Nothing is stopping you except your unwillingness to accept punishment.
If you have a commission, you can jam whatever internals you want in there and nobody will bother you. Speaking from experience.
Just ordered my complete KP 15 lower from Brownells. Looking forward to getting this out to the range! Kudos to all involved in getting this excellent idea made real!
Watching all that grime on the bolt just come off like that was very satisfying to watch ngl
I’m partial to TiN coatings for the same reasons. Wipes off so much better than my phosphate carrier.
Merry Christmas.
Adding to the chorus of "why chrome over nickel boron?"
Thanks
I get that the lug is taking the load, but there's no staking on the carrier key screws. Those could still come loose, walk out and cause problems, unless Young uses some thread locker.
There's some companies that adamantly claim that if they're torqued to the correct ft. pounds, then staking is unnecessary. I'm not experienced with those products, but it's something to think about
@@aaronorr5586 comparing the raw numbers of yfs fasteners in use vs michigun's, you really sure about that?
Dumb question here, would loctite solve this problem?
@@izzed3500 With how hit the BCG gets most likely not.
@@shadylimon Yeah staking it would probably be the right option.
BTW guys, old fabric sheets run through the dryer are awesome for cleaning your bolt carrier group. Merry Christmas fokes!
I would recommend you also consider a DLC (diamond like coating) or PVD(Physical Vapour Deposition) coat. Used Ionbond in Europe for this before, but I'm sure you'll find a local vendor in the USA.
ordered KP15 lower number two this week. it is what i am switching all mine to. very impressed....look great feels stout and solidly made. now we need STICKERS!!!
You're arbitrarily switching all your lowers to a lower/stock/grip you've never even seen in person? I admire your faith my guy
Or are they finally shipping?
@@KI.765 got one built and another be here Monday. Very well made. Love the a1 stock too
I’m still a big supporter of nitriding. Should be an extremely hard surface, while also not effecting final dimensions like a coating. Also can’t come off the steel, only wear through.
agree, My Nitrited Faxon BCGs are slick and easy to clean , The tail end of the bolt gets caked but it is the same here, wish there was a quick way to clean it without a scraper 😄
I am curious about DLC (diamond like coating) in comparison to the hard chrome.
@@zedhiro6131 I have DLC coated knives and it is durable, but will surely flake with hard usage. I suppose prep work and the method of applications matters but at the end of the day it is a coating like chrome, TiN, NiB, etc.
You can buy it nitrided if you want it that way
@@KI.765 or buy both 😸 ill probably get the chrome when i want to put together another upper 😸
Happy holidays Karl and Russell, hope you guys are doing well. Always appreciate the videos you guys make and I look forward to the rest of the WWSD2020 series.
I am surprised that one of the Nitrided BCG's didn't make the cut.
As Nitriding is a surface hardening process instead of a plating one, there isn't the possibility of it ever flaking.
I am more familiar with Nitrided metal cutting tools, where the process is used for it's wear resistance and maintaining surface integrity at high temperatures.
I am not familiar with how the two processes compare with adhesion of foreign materials.
Also Hard Chrome is a very nasty process that generates a lot of hazardous waste. Many companies that once did hard chroming, just aren't doing it any more because of the expense and waste products.
I am in no way disagreeing with the choice, as I do not have enough information to do so.
I'm just surprised.
Thanks guys,
Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Totally agree, I don't know why any of the newer nitride coatings didn't make the list.
Nitrided bolts love to sheer. Is it the nitride? Is it the 9310 that they typically are? Is it both? I don’t know, but I know it’s the most common trait I see in low round count sheered bolt lugs
@@ShawnHinck to be fair that's probably just low quality bcgs, lots of garbage tier companies are using nitride finish these days.
@@KamikazKid to be fair, every company using nitride finishes is a garbage tier company at least where BCGs are concerned.
@@ShawnHinck
That is interesting. Nitriding being a surface hardening process, it might tend to make the surface more brittle and prone to micro fractures. These then could propagate into the underlying material.
Just a thought.
I wonder why you didn't look into a coating like TiN, Nickel Boron or DLC. The coefficient of friction is objectively superior (although TiN is a little gaudy I'll admit).
Probably because the coating will wear off much more quickly through use than a hard chrome finish.
That’s what I was thinking. He didn’t address other finishes.
He did mention other finishes, "they all represent a significant improvement over phosphate" I think is what he said. I'm a big fan of the Obsidian electroless plating done by TR enabling. It is rediculously easy to clean, I put 200 rounds through and everything just wiped right off, I would love to see someone with the resources to put a few thousand rounds through a gun with that coating.
The main disadvantages to hard chrome compared to other modern low friction corrosion resistant coatings is the coating tolerances and environmental impact if you care about that. I think the hardness are wear characteristics are marginally different, you can get nickel boron coatings just as hard if not harder than hard chrome and electroless nickel can have better friction coefficient but they are all fairly close. The other big advantage to some coatings like electroless nickel is the cost (mostly due to the lack of environmental impact)
@Jack Mehoff they are not stronger, they are harder. Unfortunately they are orders of magnitude thinner than industrial hard chroming, therefore no matter how hard they are, they will wear off faster than a hard chrome finish.
Can we get the Manufacturing part number listed in a pinned comment for each WWSD video please?
UA-cam says no
You informed me to the point that I purchased a young nm bcg but I don't think it has the hub bolt
Luv u Karl ‘n Russell 😘
Happy holidays InRange community!
Happy holidays!
I noticed the gas key screws aren’t staked. Care to comment on that?
Saw that as well
Young doesn't believe in staking. They believe that with a proper threadlocker and proper torquing that staking is entirely irrelevant, which is generally true.
I’ve inspected a whole lot of M16s and M4s over the years, and I’ve lost track of how many properly staked bolt carrier keys that I found loose.
That's quite a coincidence in that I just bought one of their bolts this morning before I knew this video existed.
My dad's SP1 is what got me into guns in the first place. So balanced and smooth, its kind of amazing.
Best wishes for a merry Christmas and a happy New Year!
What would a hot rod rifle be without shiny chrome trim?
My latest build was WWSD inspired, but I settled for the parts I could find in stock instead of the components that I thought would be most ideal for me. It turned out perfect for my needs, though. Definitely lighter than my SOCOM profile rifle with a quad rail and closer to the original lightweight ideal. BCM M4gery barrel, BCM lo-pro gas block, Fortis Rev II rail, Magpul MOE SL-K stock, and Sig Bravo4 optic. I went with the Surefire OBC and have no regrets. Much less harsh recoil than the original BCM BCG that I was hotswapping between guns and more controllable controlled pairs, even though the gun started out with very little recoil.
Wow, you must really hate having money, a lot. That bcg has absolutely no purpose on a non select fire rifle. You bought snake oil
Who said anything about it not being select fire?
@@atticuswise6076 Then why talk about supposedly more controllable paired shots instead of controllable full auto?
Unless your rifle really is select fire, you bought a stupid gimmick.
If this was reddit or anything else you could have gone: "lol just chrome it"
Instead we got a nice long explanation of why and you actually showed it beeing cleaned.
Thank you Carl for you awesome videos!
The Daniel Defense full hard chrome BCG has been my first choice for a while. This does look good though. I like that recoil lug in the gas key area and the single cam pin hole. My lower shipped from Brownells yesterday !
I wonder if, given the lot size Brownells will probably be buying these in, they could get Young to make a version without the forward assist notches? It really shouldn't be a big deal, considering it involves skipping some machining steps, not adding them, and it would look more at home in an upper with no forward assist.
It was pretty pleasing to see how easy it is to clean. :)
Please more videos of wwsd2020. Oh wait its almost 2021 😭😭
Imagine being sad about 2020 ending.
when it comes to the coating, I don't see any advantage of the chrome vs other high end coatings. PVD and Nickel Boron both have inherent lubricity and wipe off carbon build up easily.
Only long term testing will tell. The main reviews I've seen are all by people with comparitively low round counts over a short duration. Hardly a real study. That being said, I went with nickel boron myself. Knew going into it that it was a gamble though.
Regarding "any advantage": Isn't chrome better at retaining its properties at elevated temperatures?
When I build my WWSD-NX-01, I guess I lucked out. I put a chrome BCG in the rifle.
Nitriding is a lot cheaper than chroming, but it has a lot of the same benefits such as great surface hardness, corrosion resistance and slickness. My go to bcg for a build, an Aero Precision no logo nitride BCG, is like 5 bucks more expensive than their phosphate version.
Does the WWSD2020 come with an official Inrange TV stamp of hubris swag sticker?
It comes with the upper engraved with a stamp of hubris if I am not mistaken
we need Stamp of Hubris stickers.
WWSD2020 IS the stamp of Hubris
Is the carrier key not staked?! Recoil lug or not I don’t trust screws in a high heat dynamic environment to stay tight. Everything else about BCG seems well thought out so not having screws staked seems odd.
The originals weren't staked ,and there are some old timers (especially in high power) that still don't.
@@FlyingNDriving there’s probably some truth to that, but other hard chrome carriers are staked even the Brownell’s one.
The connecting rod bolts in your engine are not staked and they are in a high heat, dynamic stress environment, and I'm guessing they are still tight
Why did they not go with the lightweight version, given the principles of the project?
Good choice. Chris at smallarmssolutions would approve.
SOTAR’s video on the Young carriers has steered me away from them personally.
I was gonna head over there next and see what he has to say... love SOTAR, cannot stop watching. So much knowledge to gain from his channel.
I think karls head is in the right place but without the knowledge of a gunsmith like Chad I dont think he has enough data to make a truly informed decision
SOTAR is fantastic and that dude is clearly knowledgeable and experienced but you cannot allow your research in any matter hinge on only one source.
Hasn't he also had bad vids on well known high quality brands too?
@@shermonruler Yes. So it's you who has to be the judge. If you went to his channel looking for an answer, you'll walk away thinking every part made by everyone sucks.
For completion's sake, I think it would be nice to know what other bcg's and coatings were considered, and how they fell short. It would also help develop an idea of what Y/M did right in comparison, so people can know what to look for when assembling a rifle. Curious that the key isn't staked on the Y/M. Concerning the Surefire Enhanced BCG, the additional dwell time from the cam path could help with gas control during suppressed firing, which is much more common among firearm owners that full-auto operation.
My WWSD has a brownells TiN ightweight BCG, and instead of the silent spring, I’m using an Enidine hydraulic buffer. The TiN makes it far easier to clean and that’s the best part imo
Is a hydraulic buffer even noticeable with as much spring travel as an AR has?
@@Omnis2 it's only for the very end of travel, where felt recoil is most noticable. Switching to a 6 oz buffer smoothed out a previously uncomfortable 5.56 pistol with a too light buffer (impacted at end of travel). Switching to a soft buffer material from the joke plastic 'buffer' also makes a big difference in felt recoil.
Young Manufacturing is also the company of choice that High Caliber Sales LLC goes to when making Mk.12 uppers.
I wonder if Young's ever actually stakes down the gas key screws.
You know, the one area where BCGs actually fail noticeably? Gas key screws backing out when not tightened properly and staked, causing gas leakage and short-stroking? That ring a bell?
They don't. People have been calling Young out on it for over a decade and Young keeps doubling down on stupid, saying "BuT wE uSeD LoCkTiTe YoU gUyS." If they were going to change, they would have changed by now.
@@Paelorian Yep. Nothing wrong with a belt and braces approach. Making the conscious decision NOT to take the screws just seems foolhardy when it's such a simple thing to do.
How does the hard chrome platting come to the nitride platting that has become fairly popular
Question: instead of using screws and a recoil lug, why not make a monolithic bolt carrier like Voodoo Innovations? An integral gas key seems like the logical next step. Add clearance for a roller cam pin while you're at it.
I have a LMT in my WWSD build
Amen. A properly torqued and staked MIM gas key is better than a milled one with a gimmicky lug that's only held on with threadlocker and Harbor Freight quality bolts.
Chrome vs nickel boron, what does everyone think?
Wouldn't running an ar15 bcg wet to to point the oil starts cooking make it a horrendous mess? Sounds like the start of a vicious cycle.
When can we get a modular Stoner21 (modern stoner63A)? :D
Best bcg IMHO is still the tried and true phosphate milspec bcg.. My theory is once dry carbon sticks to the outside of a carrier and bolt it's all the same(ie dry/rough); except phosphate holds lube and continues to dilute the carbon and run smooth. I dunno, I've run all the fancy coatings/carriers and found myself going back to good ol c158 milspec bcgs because I've had less issues with them.
The Ford Taurus of BCGs, lol
I wonder how Robar's NP3+ compares.
How does this stack up to NiB? That's what I'm kinda curious about
@@SuspiciousGanymede interesting, because I know everybody and their mom seems to be loving NiB these days
@@randymagnum143 is that a problem with the NiB coatings? It wears off?
Hydrogen embrittlement is caused by improper heat treating and can even effect Chromed parts. However, hard chroming is more well practiced and familiar with suppliers, so the process plan is more stable for quality purposes. All comes down to the supplier, basically.
@@SuspiciousGanymede I have a few thousand rounds on each of 2 NiB BCGs and neither has any flaking or noticeable wear that I've found. 1 is a PSA and the other is Aero. I have had 2 other bolts that have phosphate coatings and the on 1 the chrome ring on the actual bolt is showing some flaking of the chrome. It's a CMMG manufacture. Now, I'm just 1 dude on the internet with a handful of bolts but I'm only buying NiB BCGs if possible. I did just buy a AR10 BCG that has a Black Nitride coating, as it was literally the only 6.5 Creedmoor bolt I could find. Haven't had any rounds through it yet, waiting on finding a good handguard to finish the build but am curious as to how the black nitride finish holds up. This BCG was manufactured by Rubber City for any curious. Sorry, that got long-winded.
@@thereallocke8065 I've ran a nickel boron bcg in a firearm with a binary trigger for as close to full auto testing as I can get, and I've not noticed any wear after 1,000 or so rounds
How would the chrome finish compare to a nitride finish? I know that nitride is supposed to have similar (although likely inferior) cleaning and lubrication qualities, but is that worth the extra money for a chrome bcg? I do think you were right about the recoil lug and the bolt not being completely bored out though. Keep up the great work!
IME my nitrided bolt from brownells (not the WWSD2020 bolt) has wear after ~1000 rounds. Not sure what it means exactly, but there’s a data point for you.
@@509Gman Wear, or the black worn off? As I understand it the color is just a surface oxide layer that is expected to rub off at wear points, nitriding is case hardening that goes far deeper than that.
@@Broken_Yugo didn’t know that, thank you. Yeah just not black anymore. Only in a few small spots.
The chrome is superior
Was the POF improved bolt carrier with roller cam pin and milled in gas key ever used in your testing? Just curious because it is one of my favorites. It is expensive however.
No offense but I feel like this video fell short for the series. I started skipping through once it turned into a "look at how easily it cleans up" type of deal so maybe I missed something, but expected more discussion on how different mfgs are approaching enhancements for things like the bolt lugs, cam pin paths, carrier modifications.
Nothing I saw convinces me that the young bcg is the "best".
Just providing feedback. Look forward to following the 2020 project.
No one manufacturer has included all of the minor improvements that have been done to dozens of alternative BCGs on the market, and this one is the one that has the improvements and is chromed, as we believe is the right answer, at this time. If someone wants to license the "improved cam pin path" and the "improved bolt lugs" along with the improvements included in this Young BCG (which are the most important ones) and then create a chrome BCG at a viable price point, then that would be interesting. At this time, that is not the case.
@@InrangeTv So you'll admit that it's what you believe to be the best answer at this time? I emphasize the you believe part; because in the video, you, in a very decisive manner, outright declared the YM BCG to be the best on the market.
That's the arrogance people are getting effing sick of in you guys
@@InrangeTv I did go through and watch it again. You were correct there were a few things I missed but I still feel generally how I did in the first comment. TiN,NiB,CVD coatings all wipe clean similarly, no comparing the hard chrome to any other options on a technical level. Really the only thing that seems like it was the deal maker on this one is the bolt not drilled through all the way for the cam pin which in theory should make it stronger, but how thin is it down there, would it just crack at the top anyway. Etc. I'm a fan of the channel, don't take this the wrong way. :)
So is the final production rifle going to use the semi bolt of the FA bolt?
Between Hard Chrome and PVD Diamond Like Carbon which one is better for this specific application?.
DLC?
Why not DLC coating?
Thoughts on an upper made for 45 and 50 caliber? The expanded ejection port would be better for clearing malfunctions.
Chrome vs nickel boron?
I really wish we could combine the best features of this bcg with the best features of the LMT Enhanced bcg. Unfortunately patents don't work that way. The LMT bolt head and extractor is just better. The increased dwell time from the LMT is hands down better for a carbine or even mid length. But it comes phosphated, and doesn't include the bolt key and cam pin hole reinforcement of the Young.
if you dislike the phosphate I'd say take it to a coating shop and get a nitride finish, it has all the cleaning advantages of a chrome finish without the downside of it flaking off or corroding underneath like a chrome one.
@@KamikazKid That doesn’t really happen with modern chrome coatings
Right? I fantasize about that a lot. There's like 4 or 5 products I want to combine into the ultimate bolt and carrier
@@KI.765 And just fun I'd add the POF USA roller cam pin. Just staked one onto my latest build, haven't gotten to test it yet but hand cycling is noticeably smoother, as though it was on a roller bearing. Because it is.
@@lowellhouser7731 I wish I could get a shortened one for the HM/YM bolt that's on it's way. But that's not how it gets to be unfortunately
Thanks Karl. Rich.
I LOVE the carry handle with a scope! I know its not as practical now, and the offset is terrible, but it's just so cool, I'd want it anyway!
So the recoil lug on the gas key replaces the staking?
youngmanufacturing.net/staking-the-gas-key-on-the-ar-15-and-m-16-carrier/
Young Manufacturing SLC Super Light Carrier? Shaves 2.4oz off.
Such small improvements make a world of difference sometimes.
Mines completed and i went with a brownells retro chrome with no serrations
Sweet! Been waiting for an update!
Merry Christmas!
Can’t wait for the lower to get here!
Me either. I bought one of each color. The fde is literally the last piece I need for my WWSD inspired build.
Wondering why they didnt go with Cryptic’s Mystic Black coating. Its a lipophilic and hydrophobic CVD coating. Slickest coating ive ever seen.
@InRangeTV How does the Mil-Spec BCG compare to the Hard Chromed BCG?
Would need a dimple on the cam-pin and then it would be perfect.
I’ve been saying for the past two years why not a young manufacturing chrome, and I’ve been trying to buy one for the last year, they’ve been out of stock almost all 2020, hopefully with them being adopted for the wwsd they’d ramp up production.
How does it compare to the qpq finish that jp is using?
Their extractor tool is very nice, too
Carls cleaning Part was like a tv shop comercial where they sell you an awsome cleaning cloth
Is this bolt MPI & HP tested or not?
I don’t think I’ll be using anything except chrome bcg’s from now on. There is such a huge difference
Any concerns with hydrogen embrittlement? If I'm not mistaken, this affects all chrome plating.
I wonder what the failure mode with the short cam pin will be versus the standard though, and if it will start having issues before or after a standard
I wondered this as well, but I looked up the material they use for the cam pins, and it's a stupidly strong steel. Cannot recall the designation, but it's easy to find.
I'm no longer worried about it
Is there any better way to get a Young bcg than there website? Ive been looking for a chrome bcg on their site for years and never seen one in stock...
Sign up for the "notify me when this product is back in stock" thing. I got first pick when they did a run of their chromed slickside BCGs because they emailed me about it asking to help gauge interest.
I used a YM M16 Chrome BCG when I was building my 2nd AR-15 (which I got rid of couple years later).
Now after watching this video, I wished I kept it or bought one when I was building my more recent AR build.
Also, what's the part number for the BCG used in the video?
YM has more than one chrome BCG on offer.
Lets see here...i have nib, tin, nitride and oil slick bcg. Got rid of that crappy phosphate bcg.
Wish it was here!
Every time I hear “BCG” I think of the tuberculosis vaccine... I know it’s “bolt carrier group” in this context but the immunologist in me can’t help but jump straight to disease and vaccines.
Have you tried shooting the tuberculosis?
That's a lot like the sharps rifle company bolt I forget what that one is but I believe it's nickel and boron and it wipes off but I would like to try that
Was NP3 ever considered?
Is nitride still a decent BCG finish?
They all work well, even phosphate (just oil it more often). Companies have a vested interest in making new technology to keep us buying even unnecessarily.
LWRC bolt carrier is the most reliable carrier out there and they're always in stock!!
looking forward to the preorders going out!
@J Jones presumably you mean the lower and not the full rifle?