1320/PLM headers are replicas of js racing, hks twisty, hytech headers(the plm race header is a shorter version of the hytech header). they look similar but the primary and secondary runners arent the same size.
thank you John, this was enjoyable to watch.. ilove my s2000 and i have contemplated a header..so yeah i would be playing with my car if i had a dyno as well.. actually i was doing my valve adjustment a few hours ago and took off my injectors for cleaning, so yeah lets enjoy our cars
While it's talked about for autocross, a High Flow Cat along with the header & 2.5" catback + tune make a huge difference. The mid range is excellent for a bit of upper end. With just a HFC, just a header, or just a tune they don't do much
Great video. Just goes to show how good the factory header is. I suppose IF you really needed some low down torque tracking MAYBE an aftermarket would be worth the money but factoring in tuning etc, factory is still the way to go
Wouldnt do much i think. The S2000 for track really only needs a 70 or 76mm header back custom exhaust, airbox mod + kn filter and a hondata or aem ems. More than this and u spend thousands for litle to no gains
This dyno session proves how difficult it is to make NA power and it's a testament to how well Honda engineered the F20/F22 to squeeze out all the power while meeting emissions requirements. There's barely any gains until you delve into forced induction.
Be White: NOT necessarily true. ASK John about the white '08 S2k he built for me AND the red one he built for another customer same as mine with a hidden nitrous system back on 2009. Very simple setup that included the custom step headers that he used to build from scratch at the shop. You can see our discussion of it in these comments. 👍
@@LHTPerformance John I miss that car..terribly. Effortless 360 degree burnouts w/o abusing the clutch or..car. Sublime throttle response and it was stupid fast for so few changes. Everyone I raced back then thought I had gears/nitrous..something ELSE done to it. DEEPLY regret having to sell it when I did. 👍👍👍
That mid-range gain can be seen in the the real world in a drag race or around the corners on a track. It looks like a tiny gain but you’ll clearly see the S with a header pull away on acceleration. And forced induction is fun but destroys all reliability, especially on track.
A dyno will get you close but its the road test seat of the pants dyno that is important and I have done tons of tests since the 80s . In urban driving the eBay 1320 will feel better than the Skunk and probably see better runs at the traffic light drag race as the ability to accelerate ( torque) has improved . The dyno installation I built took cold air ducted down from the roof and blown into the front of the car not a free standing fan recirculating workshop air . I designed a ton of performance stuff since then and during the 90s we had back to back shootouts for magazines on cams , exhausts , filters all sorts of crap on all sorts of cars , in particular Japanese . I'd rather be in the pub or with my woman unless working on a race car that had to go out , as standard engines are good to go with what they have , simply taking out the eco mode glitches with remapping . An exhaust manifold or panel filter swap might look OK but gain you nothing but an empty wallet . A cold air cone filter at the front of the car may result in a big bill if you hit a puddle unexpectedly through a set of bent rods ( It rains here in the UK ) as the engine being a pump with suck and try to compress water just as readily as it does air , except water doesn't compress . As the man said" little or nothing over the stock exhaust" which Honda spent thousands to design in the first place . Engines after that respond to a package as each change influences the whole suck , squish ,bang ,blow cycle .
Cool you take the time to do the compare vids but clearly the 1320 header is flowing more., you chock it with the factory cat and factory exhaust so of course it’s going to nose dive on the top end
I love these back to back testing you should do intake testing next like compare a ram air with a velocity stack compared to a basic cold air intake compared to a stock compared to a hot air lol that would be awesome too
John: I watched with interest because of the package you built for my white '08 back in 2009. Dead stock the car made 205 rwhp on the "outdoor" dyno you used at that time. You only made..5 changes to the car. 1. Drop in K&N filter in the factory airbox. 2. LHT custom "step" header (1.75", 1.90" 2.0") 3. Complete 2.5 stainless "bypass" muffler using Magnaflow black power coated universal units with OEM tips. 4. Hondata reflash & LHT tune. 5 Tien springs. That set up lowered VTEC crossover to 4,000 rpm and raised redline to 8,500 rpm. Do you remember the peak HP and torque? 242 HP and over 160 lb/ft. The car made serious torque right from 4,000 rpm and I could routinely short shift it because it made so much usable power by 7,000 rpm that you didn't have to wring its neck all the time.You built the same set for Luis plus a 75 HP shot of....Why are things so different now?
@@LHTPerformance The white car is the best modified NA car I ever owned. To gain almost 20% more power and the torque it had from and exhaust and tune is almost unbelievable. F22 engine is the best I've ever had. All my other cars/bikes gained around 4-5% with the same mods.
Nice work. This is the older version PLM ? How would u say this might change with a modified all motor engine such as aggressive cams, porting, intake and throttle body works?
@@LHTPerformance I see. I have heard good things about the slightly smaller primary new version plm race. I think it is tough to make decent gains overall from the stock setup. Nothing much changing going in, what’s to be changed going out. Just thinking that it was a worked engine with with higher compression pistons, aggressive cans, intake , intake manifold ( there are options for this now) and a decently big TB maybe the outperformance of an aftermarket header might be worth the coin
I wonder if 1320 is in reference to the Car Channel from Omaha, NE where I first got into Street Racing? I can't believe that a small car club got so big and is now today well known and respected. The thing is The F20 or F22 as we all know is maxed out from the factory. I've only seen 1 good powered S2K, but that was from a Japanese company that had all its own parts on it intake, exhaust, header, cams, Hondata, etc. So if you want good N/A power with an S2K...K20 or K20/K24 Swap.
@@sideshow45 Cool. Just thought it may have been linked b/c of the name. I don't think I ever met him personally when I lived there. I was on the old 1320 board a lot back in the day. Fun times with my modified MKIII VR6 Jetta. Fun races. I lost some I won some but the people were cool and the Ralston Wed 84th st Car shows were a lot of fun.
How come u didn’t do another dyno run with the skunk2 same day? Anyways, I’ve experienced this before. Tuned s2000 made 225, then 212 a couple months later with barely any drive time. Only thing was difference in temp where I was at.
My theory is, that step up in the skunk 2 is causing the exhaust velocity to suck the exhaust out of the head in the higher end. I believe if the car was a bit more built the 1320 would stomp the skunk 2. Skunk 2 better for stock 1320 better for build Just my 2 cents
Looks like skunk2 really messed up with the cylinder pairings. Had they got that right they may have made the most power. As for 1320, its a PLM header with the sections all welded together unlike the modular design of other PLM rebranded headers. The problem with the 1320 header is they cheaped out and used the same size pipes for the primary and secondary. Had they done that correctly, then the top end wouldnt have suffered and their header would have been clearly the best, instead of "kind of" the best. Lastly, equal length piping importance was not mentioned, nor measured. That was a mistake.
The Skunk2 header was designed by Skunk2 which I heard was more for supercharged applications. I actually understand header design and have many experience building them. As mentioned in you last comment. I put the video together out of interest. I think chasing 3-5whp is a waste of time. Just boost it. Maybe you can produce a video showing your findings and make a video too.
I usually tune from outside the car for several reasons. I can listen to the engine and the watch the exhaust for signs way before the knock can be detected.
I’m confused where did the 224 HP run come from? Was the 224 HP run with Skunk 2 header or the 1320 header? Thanks for all the videos you do. I really appreciate all the knowledge passed along.
@@Liveforeever The Skunk 2 was tuned. The PLM was made to work with the same tune as the Skunk 2. Not a good idea, each header has to be tuned independently for an HONEST comparison.
@@LHTPerformance I was shocked when I noticed haha, I was like there is no way of all people!! I didn't want to be that guy be didn't see anyone mention it.. Hope you enjoy your Halloween
The last custom header we built for an S2000 was 10+ years ago. There’s no money in building custom headers using quality materials. That’s why China headers are so plentiful
@@LHTPerformance yeah you'll have that also but at least it's not nagging you in the back of your mind. Whether or not there is a HP or TQ gain we know the flow is the best it could possibly be for that application.
@@MyBrothersKeeper101 I know what you mean. We built SC S2000 and pulled out all the stops, including port matching the header and made right at 500whp. Then replicated the same numbers with a off the shelf header. The 4 hours of grinding wasn’t worth it but looked nice. Sometimes you have to do things for yourself. Even if it does very little, it feels better.
I've made 238hp on one of their headers on a B18. NATURALLY ASPIRATED. On spray it makes 340hp Mustang dyno. Welding quality and material quality isn't top quality (I've had to fix two runner cracks that were likely my fault from hitting the megaphone on a manhole cover), but it's a $400 header. What do you want from it?
1320/PLM headers are replicas of js racing, hks twisty, hytech headers(the plm race header is a shorter version of the hytech header). they look similar but the primary and secondary runners arent the same size.
Great comparison!!! These are the kind of tests I would do if I had a dyno. I’m too curious not to see what works best. Great video and keep it up
Thanks, I may do more tests.
@@LHTPerformance yes, please
I learn so much from John, I appreciate his honesty and his passion for cars, keep it up LHT, thanks John.
Thank you, for taking the time to make these videos John 🙌👍👍
Thank you for taking the time, the effort to fo this video. You guys are awesome.
Thanks Jon for doing this ,1 guy tried to argue me down about his $2000 exhaust over my $200 exhaust, but the results are as clear as glass 🤷🏾♂️😁
You just didn't need to spend the extra $1800 for the glasses 😄
We appreciate your time and effort on these comparisons. Thanks 🙏
Your videos always teach me a lot! Keep it up man great content🔥
THANKS LHT!! always appreciate and respect all the work and extra effort always !
This is very interesting. I'd love to see more side-by-sides like this. It's very useful to make educated decisions on what to do to the car!
This S2000 content is dope, subbed!
thank you John, this was enjoyable to watch.. ilove my s2000 and i have contemplated a header..so yeah i would be playing with my car if i had a dyno as well.. actually i was doing my valve adjustment a few hours ago and took off my injectors for cleaning, so yeah lets enjoy our cars
Great info as usual. Thanks for taking the time.
Thank you for the data. Keep up the terrific testing.
That was an awesome video, I had to watch it twice, thanks LHT.
Great video! Keep them coming!
While it's talked about for autocross, a High Flow Cat along with the header & 2.5" catback + tune make a huge difference. The mid range is excellent for a bit of upper end. With just a HFC, just a header, or just a tune they don't do much
Love simple videos like this
2:11 Steve dolce from the West Coast said the same thing. Extending the merge collection 99.998% will always make something more! Saucy science 🎉🎉🎉
Awesome video!! The same co.larison as this video on a Skunk2 vs stock on a high boost SC car is what MANY want to see!
For 3800 views, it’s not worth the work. Unless Skunk2 want to pay for the video.
Thank you for doing this!
Great test, thanks for the information
Great video! For an AP2 with cams (BC to be exact), would you think the 1320 would be better up top?
This is an awesome video! I’m about to get a header for my prelude. Not really after performance, but better than stick would be cool.
Great video.
Just goes to show how good the factory header is.
I suppose IF you really needed some low down torque tracking MAYBE an aftermarket would be worth the money but factoring in tuning etc, factory is still the way to go
Love this. Thank you.
Thank you for the video.
Awesome video!
Looks like the smaller tubing on the lower section made less power. But it should make power with Toda Cams and an intake.
Hey John, I wonder if there would be any way to test a PLM s2000 header since it is supposed to be a try Y or hytec replica.
Great comparison! All good to know 👍🏼
I also enjoyed your comparison video on the stock Honda OEM plug wires vs the Spoon plug wires on a B18C.
I Can’t find this video.. what was the verdict?
@@Fasttechs2k Spoon wires on a b18c engine make it loose a few HP. Better to stick with OEM.
Great content
Do you have any experience with Berk HFC? What are your thoughts on HFC in general?
Great video. Learned a lot. My s is turbo but this is great info.
The best header has a turbo hanging off the end. 😉
That car sounds great
Great info, thanks 👍👍.
Those header need bigger cat n exhaust. To me this is like testing a good set of K series header with a small 2” exhaust system, it’ll choke
Would have been better testing them with no exhaust....header only.
Wouldnt do much i think. The S2000 for track really only needs a 70 or 76mm header back custom exhaust, airbox mod + kn filter and a hondata or aem ems. More than this and u spend thousands for litle to no gains
Likely has to do with the difference in header routing into the collector.
This dyno session proves how difficult it is to make NA power and it's a testament to how well Honda engineered the F20/F22 to squeeze out all the power while meeting emissions requirements. There's barely any gains until you delve into forced induction.
Be White: NOT necessarily true. ASK John about the white '08 S2k he built for me AND the red one he built for another customer same as mine with a hidden nitrous system back on 2009. Very simple setup that included the custom step headers that he used to build from scratch at the shop. You can see our discussion of it in these comments. 👍
@@victorwilburn3498 That was a lot more of a complexed header we hand built for your car. Maybe I’ll get a wild hair and build a header to prove it 🤔
@@LHTPerformance John I miss that car..terribly. Effortless 360 degree burnouts w/o abusing the clutch or..car. Sublime throttle response and it was stupid fast for so few changes. Everyone I raced back then thought I had gears/nitrous..something ELSE done to it. DEEPLY regret having to sell it when I did. 👍👍👍
That mid-range gain can be seen in the the real world in a drag race or around the corners on a track. It looks like a tiny gain but you’ll clearly see the S with a header pull away on acceleration.
And forced induction is fun but destroys all reliability, especially on track.
A dyno will get you close but its the road test seat of the pants dyno that is important and I have done tons of tests since the 80s . In urban driving the eBay 1320 will feel better than the Skunk and probably see better runs at the traffic light drag race as the ability to accelerate ( torque) has improved . The dyno installation I built took cold air ducted down from the roof and blown into the front of the car not a free standing fan recirculating workshop air . I designed a ton of performance stuff since then and during the 90s we had back to back shootouts for magazines on cams , exhausts , filters all sorts of crap on all sorts of cars , in particular Japanese . I'd rather be in the pub or with my woman unless working on a race car that had to go out , as standard engines are good to go with what they have , simply taking out the eco mode glitches with remapping . An exhaust manifold or panel filter swap might look OK but gain you nothing but an empty wallet . A cold air cone filter at the front of the car may result in a big bill if you hit a puddle unexpectedly through a set of bent rods ( It rains here in the UK ) as the engine being a pump with suck and try to compress water just as readily as it does air , except water doesn't compress . As the man said" little or nothing over the stock exhaust" which Honda spent thousands to design in the first place . Engines after that respond to a package as each change influences the whole suck , squish ,bang ,blow cycle .
This is great
I’m with you about playing with your toys and enjoying it rather than spending time at the bar.
Can you do this same test but with a test pipe? Im sure the stock cat is restricting the flow
Cool you take the time to do the compare vids but clearly the 1320 header is flowing more., you chock it with the factory cat and factory exhaust so of course it’s going to nose dive on the top end
Which would you recommend for a charged s2000 please? Still on stock currently. Thanks
I love these back to back testing you should do intake testing next like compare a ram air with a velocity stack compared to a basic cold air intake compared to a stock compared to a hot air lol that would be awesome too
John, at my house, "go play with your car" usually mean uh-oh... Great comparison, what's next (turbo)?
John: I watched with interest because of the package you built for my white '08 back in 2009. Dead stock the car made 205 rwhp on the "outdoor" dyno you used at that time. You only made..5 changes to the car. 1. Drop in K&N filter in the factory airbox. 2. LHT custom "step" header (1.75", 1.90" 2.0") 3. Complete 2.5 stainless "bypass" muffler using Magnaflow black power coated universal units with OEM tips. 4. Hondata reflash & LHT tune. 5 Tien springs. That set up lowered VTEC crossover to 4,000 rpm and raised redline to 8,500 rpm. Do you remember the peak HP and torque? 242 HP and over 160 lb/ft. The car made serious torque right from 4,000 rpm and I could routinely short shift it because it made so much usable power by 7,000 rpm that you didn't have to wring its neck all the time.You built the same set for Luis plus a 75 HP shot of....Why are things so different now?
The header we built for you was a better header. Our car base lined at 208whp.
@@LHTPerformance The white car is the best modified NA car I ever owned. To gain almost 20% more power and the torque it had from and exhaust and tune is almost unbelievable. F22 engine is the best I've ever had. All my other cars/bikes gained around 4-5% with the same mods.
@@victorwilburn3498 The white S2000 was definitely a strong one.
A question please, doesn't exhausts need to preserve their heat to make power? Why the heat shield is very important for exhaust?
I’ve never seen any gains from this. I’ve wrapped header and seen change before and after. The biggest reason to reduce radiating heat.
i am so glad i did not waist my time on bolt on parts for my s2k i saved my money waited got a turbo kit
Good to know.
Thanks
we've always stuck with the stock header even in our race cars. I wish they made a oem spec in stainless steel tho.
This is what we need! Possibly with a tweek... Someone jump on it.
Nice work. This is the older version PLM ?
How would u say this might change with a modified all motor engine such as aggressive cams, porting, intake and throttle body works?
Based on custom headers we’ve built, I think the primary tubes need to smaller. This was a header by 1320, it’s basically a copy header
@@LHTPerformance I see. I have heard good things about the slightly smaller primary new version plm race.
I think it is tough to make decent gains overall from the stock setup. Nothing much changing going in, what’s to be changed going out.
Just thinking that it was a worked engine with with higher compression pistons, aggressive cans, intake , intake manifold ( there are options for this now) and a decently big TB maybe the outperformance of an aftermarket header might be worth the coin
@@LHTPerformance btw when u ran this dyno, which exhaust did u run
I wonder if 1320 is in reference to the Car Channel from Omaha, NE where I first got into Street Racing? I can't believe that a small car club got so big and is now today well known and respected. The thing is The F20 or F22 as we all know is maxed out from the factory. I've only seen 1 good powered S2K, but that was from a Japanese company that had all its own parts on it intake, exhaust, header, cams, Hondata, etc. So if you want good N/A power with an S2K...K20 or K20/K24 Swap.
1320 is the number of feet in a quarter mile, I dont think the 2 are related, just a happy coincidence
Just like the same number. I don't think Kyle Loftis would put his name on replica job stealing garbage.
@@sideshow45 Cool. Just thought it may have been linked b/c of the name. I don't think I ever met him personally when I lived there. I was on the old 1320 board a lot back in the day. Fun times with my modified MKIII VR6 Jetta. Fun races. I lost some I won some but the people were cool and the Ralston Wed 84th st Car shows were a lot of fun.
How come u didn’t do another dyno run with the skunk2 same day?
Anyways, I’ve experienced this before. Tuned s2000 made 225, then 212 a couple months later with barely any drive time. Only thing was difference in temp where I was at.
It was actually done the same day. You’ll notice it was dark while doing the 1320 header. Yes
My theory is, that step up in the skunk 2 is causing the exhaust velocity to suck the exhaust out of the head in the higher end. I believe if the car was a bit more built the 1320 would stomp the skunk 2.
Skunk 2 better for stock
1320 better for build
Just my 2 cents
Looks like skunk2 really messed up with the cylinder pairings. Had they got that right they may have made the most power. As for 1320, its a PLM header with the sections all welded together unlike the modular design of other PLM rebranded headers. The problem with the 1320 header is they cheaped out and used the same size pipes for the primary and secondary. Had they done that correctly, then the top end wouldnt have suffered and their header would have been clearly the best, instead of "kind of" the best. Lastly, equal length piping importance was not mentioned, nor measured. That was a mistake.
The Skunk2 header was designed by Skunk2 which I heard was more for supercharged applications. I actually understand header design and have many experience building them. As mentioned in you last comment. I put the video together out of interest. I think chasing 3-5whp is a waste of time. Just boost it. Maybe you can produce a video showing your findings and make a video too.
It's like pouring a 5 gallons into a funnel and not expecting it to back up .. I wanna see the same test with a full 3" exhaust
I’d recommend installing chrome Remote Desktop or something so you could read the dyno from the laptop.
I usually tune from outside the car for several reasons. I can listen to the engine and the watch the exhaust for signs way before the knock can be detected.
I’m confused where did the 224 HP run come from? Was the 224 HP run with Skunk 2 header or the 1320 header? Thanks for all the videos you do. I really appreciate all the knowledge passed along.
From skunk2
@@Liveforeever The Skunk 2 was tuned. The PLM was made to work with the same tune as the Skunk 2. Not a good idea, each header has to be tuned independently for an HONEST comparison.
@@freddyrosenberg9288 yes that's right, it's the only way to get a like for like comparison
what kind of wax do you use on this car.
For science!
I wanna see y’all do ballade header
Send us one and we’ll test it.
Any plans on comparing the Skunk2 with the Urge Unicorn Header or with K-Tuned Header?
If someone wants to Supply those headers, yes. I’m not buying them , lol
@@LHTPerformance Lol. Let's hope one day.
I’m pretty sure 1320 used to be camp1320 back in the day .
You know the other side of those calipers are for measuring inside diameter? Instead of using the outside and eyeing it up to and ID.
I’m quite familiar how to use the micrometer. Without cutting open the tube I can’t measure the actual ID. This was more for reference than anything,
@@LHTPerformance I was shocked when I noticed haha, I was like there is no way of all people!! I didn't want to be that guy be didn't see anyone mention it.. Hope you enjoy your Halloween
Please test the PLM it supposedly makes good power
You wanna supply it. I’ll supply the car, dyno and time.
What were the stock header numbers?
In the video with the Skunk2 header video
When in doubt forced induction it out
What do u think of the invidia header?
I’ve not tested. I wouldn’t spend more than $500-$600 on a header unless you’re doing more to the build.
@@LHTPerformance thanks
Any experience with the ballade sports header?
No.
I have one on my S. Gives you a little more power in midrange, not much at the top.
@@chucks_garage987 any low end loss?
@@CameronsCars none that I noticed.
what do you think about the ballade motor sports header, or j’s racing header
I really don’t think there’s enough in the header to spend much over $500-$600
Waiting for someone to send him a URGE header.
It would be interesting to see the results.
Where is the LHT headers…?
The last custom header we built for an S2000 was 10+ years ago. There’s no money in building custom headers using quality materials. That’s why China headers are so plentiful
*S C I E N C E*
Mandatory to Port match even the exhaust especially the manifold/header🤘all my friends said I was being anal now I know I was just being thorough.
We’ve done that on the Skunk2 header and seen zero gains.
@@LHTPerformance yeah you'll have that also but at least it's not nagging you in the back of your mind. Whether or not there is a HP or TQ gain we know the flow is the best it could possibly be for that application.
@@MyBrothersKeeper101 I know what you mean. We built SC S2000 and pulled out all the stops, including port matching the header and made right at 500whp. Then replicated the same numbers with a off the shelf header. The 4 hours of grinding wasn’t worth it but looked nice. Sometimes you have to do things for yourself. Even if it does very little, it feels better.
I wonder if PLM makes an s2000 header
They do. A couple versions too
@T R except for the invidia headers those are expensive..
@T R Most headers are made in Taiwan at the same factory.
So long story short.. If you own a 2000-2005 S2, and DON'T have the ability to tune the car... Don't waste money on aftermarket Headers. xD
I believe that header is to big for stock motor
Yes. I think the primary’s are a little too large for the stock head/ cam and compression package.
@@LHTPerformance do you think it would perform well with power adder? Stock motor of course
Try urge unicorn!
You supply one, I’ll supply the car , Dyno and work.
Sorry Im late John, just have a baby girl
Congrats buddy. Word of advice. Take lots of video while she’s young, they grow so fast and pictures don’t do what video can. Trust me on this one.
@@LHTPerformance Thank you, I will do exactly that, will filling my galery with her video
1320 headers are trash!!!
I've made 238hp on one of their headers on a B18. NATURALLY ASPIRATED. On spray it makes 340hp
Mustang dyno.
Welding quality and material quality isn't top quality (I've had to fix two runner cracks that were likely my fault from hitting the megaphone on a manhole cover), but it's a $400 header. What do you want from it?