I agree, David. I did a test before I invested in setting up my hybrid mixing environment. I connected 2 outputs and inputs of my RME Fireface UC I used at that time with a patch cable.Then I loaded a song with 48KHz/24Bit and enough headroom (peaks at -6dBFS) in my DAW, duplicated the track, send one version straight to the main bus, the other to the outputs of the converter, back in and then to the main bus, adjusted the offset until it was in phase, flipped the phase of the left and right channel on the track that was sent straight to the main bus. The result was a barely audible hiss in the top end and something in the low end which I only could see on an analyser but was not audible at all. That was good enough for me to say that the benefit in workflow and sound from using outboard makes up for the side effects in D/A and A/D conversion.
There is nothing more pleasant than turning the knob with your bare hand, and giving you confidence and control! Brain is a very delicate thing! You boost 3db with analog and that makes you feel great, a very quick and intense signal goes up and down from the brain to your hand! Back and forth!!! And you decide that sounds good! Now when in the box, often forced to see the numbers and the digital screen showing you the move, but yet the hand is not in 100% synchronized with your brain , bcz the movement and the experience is different for the hand and the brain, that could quickly makes you lose focus and thus making bad decisions!
Let's not forget that what Andrew is mixing has already been tracked through high end outboard and will almost certainly be mastered with high end outboard. Therefore it's completely feasible to mix completely ITB
This is the exact point that always sticks in my mind. These huge famous mixing engineers are getting files that have been recorded through high end analogue gear by the best ears in the business, so they don’t necessarily need to use any analogue gear when mixing. It simply becomes a choice of convenience, habit and flavour. But that argument can’t really hold for most of the rest of us who receive digitally recorded files which have been poorly recorded by musicians or amateur producers. Therefore, We need to add that extra character spice that only analogue gear can impart in full when mixing. Which is a salient point for those of us who are also recording artists - should we invest in analogue gear if we aren’t recording in high end recording studios? The answer, I believe, is a resounding yes, where financially permissible, of course.
I think you summed it up well. Andrew would not go itb only for convenience; he would certainly be convinced that he found ways to get the same or better results. I think this is a great topic to discuss more than once. I, personally, would like to hear every interview have this question in one form or another.... 🤔
Been using the neve portico summing and also the master bus compressor. I realized that that sound that it gives is something I can use for when needed. There are times when itb worked better. Analog summing does definitely still give a better depth and dimension. I somehow feel that it becomes a matter of choice. Like going for a certain spice in the kitchen . May not necessary all the time even though it makes it tastes better
On Eric Valentine's channel he ran a drum loop through his convertors 20 times and said in a blind test he wouldn't be able to tell which was the first and the 20th conversion.... of course someone with the hearing of a bat in the comments said "The difference is quite evident" !!
My opinion about it , I highly recommend mixing with stock plugins completely inside the box and keep practicing until you start reaching that sound quality you can achieve.
I can't really say which one is better because I can't afford analog gear at the minute so my approach is always ITB. But what I can say is I do believe that analog gear does make a difference. I do have a good external pre amp I had modded and it does make a difference. The differences are small but there. Worth the price? Most wouldn't think so but a lot of these small differences add up to make a huge difference later on. Plugins are great too but I don't think plugins can do everything analog gear can. Nor do I think analog gear can do everything that plugins can or is as convenient. Analog gear is fun if you're in one spot all the time but if you're constantly on the move, obviously the ITB approach may be a good idea. No one wants to have to keep moving around a bunch of gear extremely expensive gear over and over. Lets just face facts though. Gear is FUN. And if it were not for the fact that analog gear is so freakin expensive, most would give it a go because nothing is better than the real thing. Just like drums. If price wasn't a factor, would you choose a great REAL drumkit and have a real drummer play for your song or would you choose a drum vst plugin? Nothing is better than the real thing in my opinion.
I know this was more about DA converters, but regardless, This is the point that always sticks in my mind. These huge famous mixing engineers are getting files that have been recorded through high end analogue gear by the best ears in the business, so they don’t necessarily need to use any analogue gear when mixing. It simply becomes a choice of convenience, habit and flavour. But that argument can’t really hold for most of the rest of us who receive digitally recorded files which have been poorly recorded by musicians or amateur producers. Therefore, We need to add that extra character spice that only analogue gear can impart in full when mixing. Which is a salient point for those of us who are also recording artists - should we invest in analogue gear if we aren’t recording in high end recording studios? The answer, I believe, is a resounding yes, where financially permissible, of course.
Exactly this. Much easier to mix a song that was recorded with amazing gear on the way in. But, I have no doubt Andrew could make a poorly recorded, well performed and written song sound like a hit. For me, just running out of my apollo x through the SSL Fusion and Heritage Audio Successor makes w huge difference. Could I get close ITB? Yes. Would it take me more work to get there? Yes.
I think whatever works, I did some mastering on already mastered tunes I did 10 years ago, ran it through my analog chain they sound a lot better, sound great in headphones, in the car. So thats tunes I solely did in the box ages back different monitors tannoy v8s, Mastered using waves mastering plugins. I mean they sound bigger than life, love switching between them listening to the difference my analog gear and converters do to it. Because the Arc1.1 are not really match even though Tim tried to get it as close I run it out in m/s mode. For me I remember doing everything I could to get the mixes to where they were in the box then. These days the analog emulation plugins are getting close, clippers are getting better. But nothing has yet to come close to what my analog chain does. I am at this point now that I think I should mix in the box and get it to as best as I can with the plugins I have now which are way better, then run it through my analog for a/b comparison. If my analog m/s still takes it to another level then I am still going to further invest in analog. Now I do not mean just running it through only, I tweak eq by no more than 1-3db wide eq, just touching the side of the m/s can widen the overall mix and open it up, its just that thing analog has.
I've never heard Andrew Scheps say this in any interview. I've never even seen a quote of him saying this. Could you please substantiate your quote with a source?
@@progrocker84 No, not really, sorry, I'm not going to look for sources, really don't feel like doing so. Check out some of his longer talks. It seems you are a professional expert on Scheps, maybe just watch some of his interviews, hear what he has to say?
Converters may be better quality but so are plug ins. Andrew also says recall is a big deal, allowing him the flexibility to work on several projects at any given time...
Its a bit like any instrument, I suppose, when you get as good at it as Scheps is, you can break and tweak the rules in such a way that it works well. I read something about some great producer recording the last (or one of the last) Neil Diamond album in a motel room with an O2r and a few 414s. I think thats pretty inspiring. Its very true to the spirit of music, in a way.
Ok, here's a long question about gain staging. I'm working with many VST instruments and I mix during the recording. If I think a piano needs an eq or a compressor after I recorded it I insert it there and then. That means that the final mix in most cases is quick, I just adjust the channels and the rest is done earlier. As gain staging should be done with the faders at zero and without any plugins, should I do the gain staging before I record the instrument?
@@mixbustv I try it one more time.. I'm lying in bed, going to sleep and i was probably sleeping when I replied... The only problem in this gain staging is that I get a heart stop everytime I play a sound in any of Cubase preview players...
I have a question. I've got a heavy metal track that I'm working on. Rthm Gits are panned hard LR but I also want to add a twin harmony guitar track (also panned LR) my question is where should those tracks sit in the mix with respect to panning assignments...30, 60 degrees (LR)? Is it wrong to double up on the hard LR, will it cause phase cancellation?...anyways, I love the channel and have learned so much already, cheers brother...you're one of the good ones :)
Not at all, I only pan LCR (so many engineers) there's no problem whatsoever on panning hard both, phase cancellation *only* happens between copies of the same track and/or multiple kicks or basses if not properly aligned. What you could have is masking (very different from phase cancellation) but that's where eq will come to rescue. What I personally do with harmony guitars is to add movement in panning, or shift the entire stereo image to be (still hard panned) tilted, also a bit of modulation. Hope this helps
@@mixbustv Just and update, of course you were right, once I panned them hard LR, the mix just came alive and the guitars sounded impossibly amazing. I can't thank you enough for helping out a newb, I couldn't have done it without you..thanks man, I'm so happy right now...best. mix. ever :)
@@AngeloDopwell Check out reviews online, they're almost all glowing. Super flat profile and detailed sound with rich and crisp low end. The one negative thing people consistently mention is resting hum. Quite a few people mention this but mine are pretty quiet. I personally think these are the best monitors in the price range. Hope that helps.
Hi David do you dither when you go out? Sorry if it was already answered in another video but I recently read a topic about that and this question come into my mind when I saw this video.
@MixbusTv ~ I'm using a Prism Sound Titan for my converter. After testing just about every major brand on the market for years, that was the only design aside from the Prism Dream where things sounded BETTER after a conversion (I have test files I can email you if you like). This becomes even more noticeable and musical if you enable Low Latency Monitoring when you print out of your DA and back into your AD. It's not just a clarity driven unit, there is some "compensation" on a mechanical level in order to make the degradation of a conversion useful and musical, rather than just a nuisance which can hurt the work potentially. Now the irony...I'm also mixing and mastering ITB like Scheps ATM. I'm getting results which are extremely close how my old analog console sounded (I owned a Modified Yamaha PM2000, which was basically a 32 Channel API in terms of how it sounded for years), and I've slimmed down quite a bit. But I am looking at mastering EQs in the analog world (Knif, Buzz, etc.). So we'll see if I settle on something eventually.
I find that very hard to believe, no offence. But a detrimental process is by nature detrimental, even if is 0.000000000000001% and borderline inaudible in the best case scenario monitoring-wise. It's like putting your finger into a fire, you're gonna burn it, if you touch and go it's gonna be little, if you stay it's gonna burn more, but sure ain't making your skin better. The only units that I can think of that counteract that by adding something that is more beneficial then the irrelevant detriment, are crane song HEDD and Burl, but we're talking about psychoacoustic processors and very good at that. The conversion itself, it's not beneficial in those either, it's negligible, to the point of not being a problem ever, not even in much less expensive converters. If the prism add color, than it's just that (every converter does) and you happen to like it, nothing wrong with it, I use HEDD because of that, but yeah
@@mixbustv Is there a work email for you I can use? I'll send you files. We tried the following: Prism Dream, Prism AD2 and DA2, Prism Orpheous, Prism Titan, Mytek 8x192, Burl B2 DAC and ADC, Forsell MADA-2A and MADC-2, and a few other top level converters I'm failing to remember at the moment (I think one of the top tier units from Antelope, and a Lynx Hilo were also tested, I'll go see what I can dig up), as well as IZ ADA/RADAR Units and the AVID Omni in that test. I've also had experience with several converters by RME and Apogee over the years. The Prism AD2 and DA2 were great, but not "modern"-wide enough in the stereo image. The Dream was wider/better, and absolutely made things sound better after conversion (but it's like $12K to buy one in the USA so it's not worth the price Vs. performance), The Orpheus made things sound more modern than the other two and a little better, but overall wasn't as musical as the Dream. The Titan however feels like it splits the difference in the imaging between the more modern natural center image depth of the Orpheus, and the wide screen, but musical Dream image left to right. Then we did tests in PT HD Native with Low Latency monitoring while doing passes. Sound quality improved again. This is all war of inches stuff. I'm not saying there isn't degradation. I'm saying they planned around it mechanically, so that something musical to compensate is imparted during conversion. It's not a transformer or anything like the Burl stuff, but it is very clearly there, and it was at that point I started to plan my new home studio around the Titan. I posted for years on Gearslutz as "HereComesYourMan", and was trained by Shelly Yakus (who mixed John Lennon's Imagine). I took this test seriously, and it was conducted using the same file for loopbacks over the course of several years. The Titan may be $4,5K retail, but you wait for Black Friday, when there's sale, etc. It's not so bad. People routinely spend way more on analog units that I don't believe they're hearing in the most musical light mechanically possible.
Interesting information, thank you for sharing this! I have never worked in a studio or with any analog equipment as I learned by myself with plug-ins and a laptop alone on the table of my kitchen 😂 so it's very interesting to get this information from experts like you and learn more than just what I presently use. Kindest Regards from your friend François in Montreal, Canada! 🎼🃏🎶🎵🙏😁🌠😷
In your chain, when the signal go out through a DA conversion and into an hardware gear such (compressor, eq, etc..) you come back into the computer through a single AD channel or through a summing mixer and then a 2bus DA?
Real hybrid mixing uses hardware just like you'd use plugins. In my case, every channel (that has hw) goes out into the unit, back in into the track, same for groups, same for the entire mix, all at the same time.
This is an old video from when my studio wasn't ready yet. My monitors are Eve 3012s, Gens, jbl and a pair of lp8 on tbe back. And yes, I have a lot of other monitors sitting around
I see your channel interesting and I wanna ask you a question...... I’m a bedroom producer and I don’t have any idea about making connections, my music in so good too. It any ways I wanna know about the process going on in industry and how to have good relations. What is best way to connect like managers and artists who don’t really know me... I see lot of big producers get good management and I wanna know how they get, what’s is the process. I hope you will reply me
Yes, I don't, I still don't. I get my tone from picking the right mic (and most important probably) the right position of the mic, and compression. Those are my tools, I simply don't need eq and also when I'm tracking I don't have the mix ready, so high end, bottom end, or any resonance that I can possibly hear, it doesn't matter if it's not in context (the mix) that's also why I mix vocals last, differently from many. I'm pretty confident with vocals so I never really needed eq on the way in, a couple of times I used the Louder Than Liftoff filters, but only the tilt part to rebalance maybe a mic that wasn't ideal and I had no other choice.
@@mixbustv ok I just purchased a neve 1073(just got it in today)a 1176 compressor and a u87ai.What do you think of the 1176 ?If I'm not mistaken you chose another compressor over it and also do you think I can do an entire rap/rock with just that microphone or will I need another?Thanks for answering and I hope to have to mix and master a couple songs soon with just analog gear of course👍🏿I hate plugins 🤷🏿♂️
Hey Dude, here's one for you. Online in several places where music production is discussed, I've seen quite a few people (all amateurs, as best I can tell) talking about how they think they hear clipping on the new Tool album. I saw Evil Joe Barresi at NAMM and kiddingly brought this up, and he laughed and said "Yeah, right." What do you think people are hearing? Is it just that these young kids don't know the sound of pushing the hardware or harmonic distortion or something else like this? I'm really curious to hear your expert opinion. Thanks!
No it does, here and there, unfortunate, and nobody can tell at what stage that happened, knowing Joe, I don't think it was at the mixing stage. With that said, I'm not a fan of how that album sounds in general
Black, White, and Shades of Grey. OTB, ITB, and various forms of “Hybrid”. If You and Andrew are up for a mix, A) they’re gonna sound totally different, B) the equipment will be a tiny fraction of Why, C) one won’t be Objectively “better” than the other, even if Subjectively I like one mix more, and D) I wanna here both versions. Analog predates Digital. Digital has evolved. Digital didn’t make Analog obsolete. And Analog is no longer inherently superior to Digital. And most of us blend the two. Your version of “Hybrid” doesn’t include an Analog Console. Mine does. But you have essentially built a “desk” or “board” from your converters, patchbay, monitor controller, and outboard. Your final summing is ITB (as far as I can tell). I have 2 modes: converters hit 32-channels on the board (64-Inline) and I can either A) route through 8-Group Busses into my 2-Bus all in the desk, or B) use each channel’s direct out back ITB as a per-channel Hardware insert in the DAW, just picking up the analog channel non-linearity, engage the 32 Console EQs, or insert any of the other processing in my racks, but then back in, Subbed and Summed ITB. A) I print the Stems and the Mix, B) I print the individual tracks, Either way, photos and notes are essential for recall. Yoad Nevo worked with Waves on the NLS system which I also use and works for me. In developing that they discovered that much of the thing we like in an analog desk (he said 90%) was in the channels, and their non-linearity, not so much the summing. I also use, love, and can’t live without my Softube Console 1 system. More than anything I know of, that captures both the sound and workflow of working on say an SSL4K. Once you learn it, It’s insanely fast to fly through a hundred tracks and get the bulk of what you want locked in place. My real point, is that we haven’t so much reached a tipping point the way many think of it. We’ve just added a bunch of new tools to the box. You can still use a hacksaw, or plug in a skillsaw. But now you can also slap a battery on a sawzall and leave the cords behind. You’re still the carpenter, and if you prefer feeling the grain of the wood in your fingers while you cuts, or analog audio vocal passing through a fader into your index finger while you mix, (as opposed to a fucking mouse) , that’s your prerogative. Last thought: To amplify what you said, My first Interface was a Digidesign ProTools Project System in 1996. I still have the 882, and it was 16-BIT! When we started using ProTools, the OG DAW, it wasn’t even 24-Bit Fixed yet. (CDs are 16/44.1) Even when they were, the 888s sucked, and you wanted Apogee converters. Now, our DAWs are 32-Bit Floating Point, and there 50 companies making interfaces with 24/192 converters with high dynamic range and unnoticeable latency. So pick your poison. All approaches are valid now from a technical standpoint.
I don’t get, I tried few different converters and they are really different but each of them makes huge sounding picture that it’s impossible to get with internal audio cards from computers/Laptops I mean ITB as it means exactly that all in that computer/laptop. Also the last pic from Serban Ghnea from his studio all in the box but there are 3 converters on the desk lol
MixbusTv i agree with it but as I wrote when I do test music “only” through any converter (no hw inserts) vs ITB (internal in/out) the difference is obvious 😝
@@catonlsd3 yes AVB series has better converters, when you mix hybrid with over 20 channels of outboard going I/O at the same time it's pretty easy to hear
Andrew Scheps is a MASTER and I wish I have the half or a quarter of his talent and career, and that is a fact, but he has to sell as well his stuff don´t you think??. RME Vs ARTURIA 8PRE ??? I don´t know if you already did it but can you make an A/B between analogue summing and digital summing or just put the link if is already online
I say remember who listen to all of our final products... people on streaming serives. through cheap ear buds, laptop speakers, phone speakers, and cheap usb powered computer speakers. Hell you cant even buy a cd anymore. With all that said, why go through the expense, hassle and extra time of going outside the box. Most of you hardly hear the difference, so do you think people who know nothing about music and have inferior audio equipment can tell the difference. Save your money, buy a second home, travel more, or get the sports car you always wanted. I am over buying gear. Maybe its just me an ex studio owner who hated that all my profits continually going to new gear to stay competitive. And btw I do love my new sports car.
Every business requires investment to stay competitive, studio gear is hardly an expensive one is you don't run a giant analog console, and if all your profit was going there that's not really how it works for most studios or engineers. But if the mindset is that of "they will listen to crappy speakers and they don't know anything about music" a reason not to mix or produce or recording at song in the best way possible then definitely a sport car is a much better choice. Everyone can tell the difference, and the fact that today we have many different media doesn't mean they are all crap, actually it means the mixes are harder to get right to translate, and that, it's skills, you can throw as much money as you want at gear, that's not it.
@@mixbustv my point is, we get to caught up in the details, make great songs, do great performances, and the slight difference in sound quality will never be missed.
When mixing vocals with hardware it is actually not only DA-AD conversion, but AD-DA-AD conversion, as long as you are not tracking with compression etc. When tracking vocals I don't feel very confortable with (hard) compression, so I got some really good converters (RME ADI-2 FS) to make sure that it really doesn't matter when the compression is actually happening.
No, you're a bit confused. When mixing, you're not recording, you're mixing. So it's DA-AD, 1 round-trip. You already recorded, that's why you're mixing. You go from the digital domain, your DAW, out into hw, back into daw. When you record with or without hardware compression it doesn't matter. The signal goes from your mic, preamp, into whatever, if you have nothing you go straight into you AD, if you have 1 or 20 hardware units it doesn't matter, not one bit because you stay in the analog domain until eventually you go into your AD anyway.
@@mixbustv ok, you got me :) anyways we are talking about three conversions, so I would say especially for vocals good converters can make a real difference!
If you watch Andrew's Namm 2020 Mix With The Masters (MWTM) talk, here on UA-cam (from the 26-minute mark, I believe) he makes his position very clear. And from what I remember, it had nothing to do with digital convertors, and everything to do with workflow, and not seeing anything to be gained from taling an already-digital sound, into the analogue domain, just to have to bring it back to digital again. He did praise analogue gear for the input/recording stages, however.
Not necessarily, as a mix engineer you receive tracks, you have no idea how they were recorded and it doesn't matter, you have to make them sound like a record. Also having gear in the signal path by itself it's not insurance for anything, plenty of shitty recording came out of amazing analog chains. And, we always recorded thru gear, we also always mixed thru gear, and mastered too, then you remove that and all of a sudden people complain that modern music sounds like crap..
record with valve gear in using valve preamps mics compressors where it counts for the particular song, at least using transformers, do the rest inn the box. let the mastering engineer get out of the box, think 23 time Grammy winner Al Scmhitt !
all this makes very little sense.. Al is a mix engineer, not a mastering engineer, and he mixes 100% analog, he doesn't even touch PT he has someone operating it for him. Valve gear is no better, it gives you no insurance that your material will sound better or up to par and it doesn't mean you won't need real mixing later or that the use of outboard will not give better results anyway. Just a thought..
MixbusTv i understand your pov, i can backup everything i said, and my opinion is subjective with objectivity underneath... here we go; VALVE GEAR to combat sterile sound we getting from the conversion, here is the subjective part, it depends on you if you want to warm it up not better it from my pov. MASTERING as i said and i believe hardware is superior, mastering engineers have better ears, why do they still have outboards? i was giving an option to track warm in with compressors to cut out plugins as outboard comps make a difference, i would rather eq in the box, no need to buy an eq hardware to cut a certain frequency. we are currently evolving to itb mentality propagated by plugin manufactures to buy this and that, at the end we use half of the plugins, we just fall in the pit again and again. tracking thru a console is what we long for in our hearts...Right? can plugins give us that? Al Schmitt tracks with tube gear just for the circuits' impartations. Conclusion there is a million ways to record, so my opinion is not cast in stone, Grammys is won ITB and OTB engineering.
I used to record myself playing the guitar on my phone and always listened to it without worrying too much about the audio quality and I actually thought it sounded good (before I got into mixing/mastering)
I agree, David. I did a test before I invested in setting up my hybrid mixing environment.
I connected 2 outputs and inputs of my RME Fireface UC I used at that time with a patch cable.Then I loaded a song with 48KHz/24Bit and enough headroom (peaks at -6dBFS) in my DAW, duplicated the track, send one version straight to the main bus, the other to the outputs of the converter, back in and then to the main bus, adjusted the offset until it was in phase, flipped the phase of the left and right channel on the track that was sent straight to the main bus. The result was a barely audible hiss in the top end and something in the low end which I only could see on an analyser but was not audible at all. That was good enough for me to say that the benefit in workflow and sound from using outboard makes up for the side effects in D/A and A/D conversion.
I dont even use D/A to monitor anymore, I just plug a digital lightpipe 2 track output into my eyes.
I just zoom in to see the samples and i listen the sound in my head. This way I don't get any degradation on the signal.
@@Agiyi lmao
There is nothing more pleasant than turning the knob with your bare hand, and giving you confidence and control! Brain is a very delicate thing! You boost 3db with analog and that makes you feel great, a very quick and intense signal goes up and down from the brain to your hand! Back and forth!!! And you decide that sounds good! Now when in the box, often forced to see the numbers and the digital screen showing you the move, but yet the hand is not in 100% synchronized with your brain , bcz the movement and the experience is different for the hand and the brain, that could quickly makes you lose focus and thus making bad decisions!
Let's not forget that what Andrew is mixing has already been tracked through high end outboard and will almost certainly be mastered with high end outboard. Therefore it's completely feasible to mix completely ITB
Mixing ITB or not is not the point, the point is whether or not an additional ADDA is audible or not
@@mixbustv The video is titled 'stay in the box? Andrew Scheps does' I'm responding to the video title
This is the exact point that always sticks in my mind. These huge famous mixing engineers are getting files that have been recorded through high end analogue gear by the best ears in the business, so they don’t necessarily need to use any analogue gear when mixing.
It simply becomes a choice of convenience, habit and flavour.
But that argument can’t really hold for most of the rest of us who receive digitally recorded files which have been poorly recorded by musicians or amateur producers.
Therefore, We need to add that extra character spice that only analogue gear can impart in full when mixing.
Which is a salient point for those of us who are also recording artists - should we invest in analogue gear if we aren’t recording in high end recording studios?
The answer, I believe, is a resounding yes, where financially permissible, of course.
@@Nathankaye Most definitely! Analog makes everything easier, especially processing with plugins after the fact 💯
yip in the box cubase 10.5 pro !! also in pro tools waves plug and more
I think you summed it up well. Andrew would not go itb only for convenience; he would certainly be convinced that he found ways to get the same or better results. I think this is a great topic to discuss more than once. I, personally, would like to hear every interview have this question in one form or another.... 🤔
Been using the neve portico summing and also the master bus compressor. I realized that that sound that it gives is something I can use for when needed. There are times when itb worked better. Analog summing does definitely still give a better depth and dimension. I somehow feel that it becomes a matter of choice. Like going for a certain spice in the kitchen . May not necessary all the time even though it makes it tastes better
I am a simple man. I see Davids video, I like and I comment.
:D thanks man
On Eric Valentine's channel he ran a drum loop through his convertors 20 times and said in a blind test he wouldn't be able to tell which was the first and the 20th conversion.... of course someone with the hearing of a bat in the comments said "The difference is quite evident" !!
My opinion about it , I highly recommend mixing with stock plugins completely inside the box and keep practicing until you start reaching that sound quality you can achieve.
Until you try PT stock lol
@@mixbustv already did , I am using bundle of air effects with pro tools.
I can't really say which one is better because I can't afford analog gear at the minute so my approach is always ITB. But what I can say is I do believe that analog gear does make a difference. I do have a good external pre amp I had modded and it does make a difference. The differences are small but there. Worth the price? Most wouldn't think so but a lot of these small differences add up to make a huge difference later on. Plugins are great too but I don't think plugins can do everything analog gear can. Nor do I think analog gear can do everything that plugins can or is as convenient. Analog gear is fun if you're in one spot all the time but if you're constantly on the move, obviously the ITB approach may be a good idea. No one wants to have to keep moving around a bunch of gear extremely expensive gear over and over. Lets just face facts though. Gear is FUN. And if it were not for the fact that analog gear is so freakin expensive, most would give it a go because nothing is better than the real thing. Just like drums. If price wasn't a factor, would you choose a great REAL drumkit and have a real drummer play for your song or would you choose a drum vst plugin? Nothing is better than the real thing in my opinion.
I know this was more about DA converters, but regardless, This is the point that always sticks in my mind. These huge famous mixing engineers are getting files that have been recorded through high end analogue gear by the best ears in the business, so they don’t necessarily need to use any analogue gear when mixing.
It simply becomes a choice of convenience, habit and flavour.
But that argument can’t really hold for most of the rest of us who receive digitally recorded files which have been poorly recorded by musicians or amateur producers.
Therefore, We need to add that extra character spice that only analogue gear can impart in full when mixing.
Which is a salient point for those of us who are also recording artists - should we invest in analogue gear if we aren’t recording in high end recording studios?
The answer, I believe, is a resounding yes, where financially permissible, of course.
Andrew Scheps mostly gets good professionally recorded tracks that were recorded with good mics and hardware.
Exactly this. Much easier to mix a song that was recorded with amazing gear on the way in. But, I have no doubt Andrew could make a poorly recorded, well performed and written song sound like a hit. For me, just running out of my apollo x through the SSL Fusion and Heritage Audio Successor makes w huge difference. Could I get close ITB? Yes. Would it take me more work to get there? Yes.
He used to get those even before..
Thank David!
I think whatever works, I did some mastering on already mastered tunes I did 10 years ago, ran it through my analog chain they sound a lot better, sound great in headphones, in the car. So thats tunes I solely did in the box ages back different monitors tannoy v8s, Mastered using waves mastering plugins. I mean they sound bigger than life, love switching between them listening to the difference my analog gear and converters do to it. Because the Arc1.1 are not really match even though Tim tried to get it as close I run it out in m/s mode. For me I remember doing everything I could to get the mixes to where they were in the box then. These days the analog emulation plugins are getting close, clippers are getting better. But nothing has yet to come close to what my analog chain does. I am at this point now that I think I should mix in the box and get it to as best as I can with the plugins I have now which are way better, then run it through my analog for a/b comparison. If my analog m/s still takes it to another level then I am still going to further invest in analog. Now I do not mean just running it through only, I tweak eq by no more than 1-3db wide eq, just touching the side of the m/s can widen the overall mix and open it up, its just that thing analog has.
Scheps stated many times that he is in the box because of budget reasons - that is, he doesn't get paid enough to go with outboard gear.
I've never heard Andrew Scheps say this in any interview. I've never even seen a quote of him saying this. Could you please substantiate your quote with a source?
@@progrocker84 No, not really, sorry, I'm not going to look for sources, really don't feel like doing so. Check out some of his longer talks. It seems you are a professional expert on Scheps, maybe just watch some of his interviews, hear what he has to say?
Converters may be better quality but so are plug ins.
Andrew also says recall is a big deal, allowing him the flexibility to work on several projects at any given time...
Its a bit like any instrument, I suppose, when you get as good at it as Scheps is, you can break and tweak the rules in such a way that it works well. I read something about some great producer recording the last (or one of the last) Neil Diamond album in a motel room with an O2r and a few 414s. I think thats pretty inspiring. Its very true to the spirit of music, in a way.
Could even have been a few 57s. Wish I could find the interview.
Will there be a live Q&A anytime soon? I missed the last one and I still feel guilty about that 😅
Yes definitely, maybe even this week if I have time, fortunately work here is busier than ever, everyone is going online, I was here already 😄
MixbusTv thank god you have shit ton of videos to watch during quarantine😅😅
Good to read that business is ok!! You’re amazing bro
Ok, here's a long question about gain staging. I'm working with many VST instruments and I mix during the recording. If I think a piano needs an eq or a compressor after I recorded it I insert it there and then. That means that the final mix in most cases is quick, I just adjust the channels and the rest is done earlier. As gain staging should be done with the faders at zero and without any plugins, should I do the gain staging before I record the instrument?
Yes, in this case my advice is to do it before you record, it's also easier for you
@@mixbustv t
he only is that I jump of my chair everytime I listen to Bey zMediabayiBay. Is there any way to gia stage that too?
@@mixbustv I try it one more time.. I'm lying in bed, going to sleep and i was probably sleeping when I replied... The only problem in this gain staging is that I get a heart stop everytime I play a sound in any of Cubase preview players...
I have a question. I've got a heavy metal track that I'm working on. Rthm Gits are panned hard LR but I also want to add a twin harmony guitar track (also panned LR) my question is where should those tracks sit in the mix with respect to panning assignments...30, 60 degrees (LR)? Is it wrong to double up on the hard LR, will it cause phase cancellation?...anyways, I love the channel and have learned so much already, cheers brother...you're one of the good ones :)
Not at all, I only pan LCR (so many engineers) there's no problem whatsoever on panning hard both, phase cancellation *only* happens between copies of the same track and/or multiple kicks or basses if not properly aligned. What you could have is masking (very different from phase cancellation) but that's where eq will come to rescue. What I personally do with harmony guitars is to add movement in panning, or shift the entire stereo image to be (still hard panned) tilted, also a bit of modulation.
Hope this helps
@@mixbustv That helps immensely and more importantly gives me a starting point to start experimenting with the mix. Thanks again, this is awesome \m/
@@mixbustv Just and update, of course you were right, once I panned them hard LR, the mix just came alive and the guitars sounded impossibly amazing. I can't thank you enough for helping out a newb, I couldn't have done it without you..thanks man, I'm so happy right now...best. mix. ever :)
Do we really need a analog sound. Can our mix can sound better if it's mixed on box
generally speaking, hardware is better, that's kind of a known thing, with that said, gear doesn't mix songs by itself, it's about WHO mixes
the white monitors ?krk?
Kali lp6
I'm a David copycat. I have them too now and am quite impressed for the price.
@@cortical1 i have the Hs8 in the studio tel me about the kali (good one?)
@@AngeloDopwell Check out reviews online, they're almost all glowing. Super flat profile and detailed sound with rich and crisp low end. The one negative thing people consistently mention is resting hum. Quite a few people mention this but mine are pretty quiet. I personally think these are the best monitors in the price range. Hope that helps.
@@cortical1 thx i know what you meane
Hi David do you dither when you go out? Sorry if it was already answered in another video but I recently read a topic about that and this question come into my mind when I saw this video.
No i don't, you go out at the same bit depth and SR you go out and in, there is not bit depth conversion, no reason to
@MixbusTv ~ I'm using a Prism Sound Titan for my converter. After testing just about every major brand on the market for years, that was the only design aside from the Prism Dream where things sounded BETTER after a conversion (I have test files I can email you if you like). This becomes even more noticeable and musical if you enable Low Latency Monitoring when you print out of your DA and back into your AD. It's not just a clarity driven unit, there is some "compensation" on a mechanical level in order to make the degradation of a conversion useful and musical, rather than just a nuisance which can hurt the work potentially. Now the irony...I'm also mixing and mastering ITB like Scheps ATM. I'm getting results which are extremely close how my old analog console sounded (I owned a Modified Yamaha PM2000, which was basically a 32 Channel API in terms of how it sounded for years), and I've slimmed down quite a bit. But I am looking at mastering EQs in the analog world (Knif, Buzz, etc.). So we'll see if I settle on something eventually.
I find that very hard to believe, no offence. But a detrimental process is by nature detrimental, even if is 0.000000000000001% and borderline inaudible in the best case scenario monitoring-wise. It's like putting your finger into a fire, you're gonna burn it, if you touch and go it's gonna be little, if you stay it's gonna burn more, but sure ain't making your skin better. The only units that I can think of that counteract that by adding something that is more beneficial then the irrelevant detriment, are crane song HEDD and Burl, but we're talking about psychoacoustic processors and very good at that. The conversion itself, it's not beneficial in those either, it's negligible, to the point of not being a problem ever, not even in much less expensive converters. If the prism add color, than it's just that (every converter does) and you happen to like it, nothing wrong with it, I use HEDD because of that, but yeah
@@mixbustv Is there a work email for you I can use? I'll send you files. We tried the following: Prism Dream, Prism AD2 and DA2, Prism Orpheous, Prism Titan, Mytek 8x192, Burl B2 DAC and ADC, Forsell MADA-2A and MADC-2, and a few other top level converters I'm failing to remember at the moment (I think one of the top tier units from Antelope, and a Lynx Hilo were also tested, I'll go see what I can dig up), as well as IZ ADA/RADAR Units and the AVID Omni in that test. I've also had experience with several converters by RME and Apogee over the years.
The Prism AD2 and DA2 were great, but not "modern"-wide enough in the stereo image. The Dream was wider/better, and absolutely made things sound better after conversion (but it's like $12K to buy one in the USA so it's not worth the price Vs. performance), The Orpheus made things sound more modern than the other two and a little better, but overall wasn't as musical as the Dream. The Titan however feels like it splits the difference in the imaging between the more modern natural center image depth of the Orpheus, and the wide screen, but musical Dream image left to right.
Then we did tests in PT HD Native with Low Latency monitoring while doing passes. Sound quality improved again.
This is all war of inches stuff. I'm not saying there isn't degradation. I'm saying they planned around it mechanically, so that something musical to compensate is imparted during conversion. It's not a transformer or anything like the Burl stuff, but it is very clearly there, and it was at that point I started to plan my new home studio around the Titan.
I posted for years on Gearslutz as "HereComesYourMan", and was trained by Shelly Yakus (who mixed John Lennon's Imagine). I took this test seriously, and it was conducted using the same file for loopbacks over the course of several years.
The Titan may be $4,5K retail, but you wait for Black Friday, when there's sale, etc. It's not so bad. People routinely spend way more on analog units that I don't believe they're hearing in the most musical light mechanically possible.
Interesting information, thank you for sharing this! I have never worked in a studio or with any analog equipment as I learned by myself with plug-ins and a laptop alone on the table of my kitchen 😂 so it's very interesting to get this information from experts like you and learn more than just what I presently use. Kindest Regards from your friend François in Montreal, Canada! 🎼🃏🎶🎵🙏😁🌠😷
What do think of the UA Apollo 8p
it's a good interface, I prefer MOTU
Do you mix going into a compressor on the master? And if so why and what do you feel are the benefits?
In your chain, when the signal go out through a DA conversion and into an hardware gear such (compressor, eq, etc..) you come back into the computer through a single AD channel or through a summing mixer and then a 2bus DA?
Real hybrid mixing uses hardware just like you'd use plugins. In my case, every channel (that has hw) goes out into the unit, back in into the track, same for groups, same for the entire mix, all at the same time.
@@mixbustv thank you David
I keep see a different speakers in your videos. Where are the genelecs ? no using them anymore ?
This is an old video from when my studio wasn't ready yet. My monitors are Eve 3012s, Gens, jbl and a pair of lp8 on tbe back. And yes, I have a lot of other monitors sitting around
Me : * sees title *
Brain : "eee errr"
Hey David, could you review the SSL 2 audio interface?
If they send me one and a check sure 😄
I see your channel interesting and I wanna ask you a question...... I’m a bedroom producer and I don’t have any idea about making connections, my music in so good too. It any ways I wanna know about the process going on in industry and how to have good relations. What is best way to connect like managers and artists who don’t really know me... I see lot of big producers get good management and I wanna know how they get, what’s is the process. I hope you will reply me
David on some of your past videos you have said you don't eq vocals on the way in?Are you still sticking to that method and if so why?
Yes, I don't, I still don't. I get my tone from picking the right mic (and most important probably) the right position of the mic, and compression. Those are my tools, I simply don't need eq and also when I'm tracking I don't have the mix ready, so high end, bottom end, or any resonance that I can possibly hear, it doesn't matter if it's not in context (the mix) that's also why I mix vocals last, differently from many. I'm pretty confident with vocals so I never really needed eq on the way in, a couple of times I used the Louder Than Liftoff filters, but only the tilt part to rebalance maybe a mic that wasn't ideal and I had no other choice.
@@mixbustv ok I just purchased a neve 1073(just got it in today)a 1176 compressor and a u87ai.What do you think of the 1176 ?If I'm not mistaken you chose another compressor over it and also do you think I can do an entire rap/rock with just that microphone or will I need another?Thanks for answering and I hope to have to mix and master a couple songs soon with just analog gear of course👍🏿I hate plugins 🤷🏿♂️
Don't stay in The Box, stay in home ;)
Hey Dude, here's one for you. Online in several places where music production is discussed, I've seen quite a few people (all amateurs, as best I can tell) talking about how they think they hear clipping on the new Tool album. I saw Evil Joe Barresi at NAMM and kiddingly brought this up, and he laughed and said "Yeah, right." What do you think people are hearing? Is it just that these young kids don't know the sound of pushing the hardware or harmonic distortion or something else like this? I'm really curious to hear your expert opinion. Thanks!
No it does, here and there, unfortunate, and nobody can tell at what stage that happened, knowing Joe, I don't think it was at the mixing stage. With that said, I'm not a fan of how that album sounds in general
@@mixbustv Thanks! Very interesting. Is it too flattened? Sort of like Metallica Death Magnetic or something else about it?
@@cortical1 no it's actually pretty dynamic, I just don't like some artistic choices in the sounds used
@@mixbustv Gotcha. Thanks for the input. I'm learning lots.
Black, White, and Shades of Grey. OTB, ITB, and various forms of “Hybrid”.
If You and Andrew are up for a mix, A) they’re gonna sound totally different, B) the equipment will be a tiny fraction of Why, C) one won’t be Objectively “better” than the other, even if Subjectively I like one mix more, and D) I wanna here both versions.
Analog predates Digital. Digital has evolved. Digital didn’t make Analog obsolete. And Analog is no longer inherently superior to Digital.
And most of us blend the two.
Your version of “Hybrid” doesn’t include an Analog Console. Mine does.
But you have essentially built a “desk” or “board” from your converters, patchbay, monitor controller, and outboard.
Your final summing is ITB (as far as I can tell).
I have 2 modes: converters hit 32-channels on the board (64-Inline) and I can either A) route through 8-Group Busses into my 2-Bus all in the desk, or B) use each channel’s direct out back ITB as a per-channel Hardware insert in the DAW, just picking up the analog channel non-linearity, engage the 32 Console EQs, or insert any of the other processing in my racks, but then back in, Subbed and Summed ITB. A) I print the Stems and the Mix, B) I print the individual tracks, Either way, photos and notes are essential for recall.
Yoad Nevo worked with Waves on the NLS system which I also use and works for me. In developing that they discovered that much of the thing we like in an analog desk (he said 90%) was in the channels, and their non-linearity, not so much the summing.
I also use, love, and can’t live without my Softube Console 1 system. More than anything I know of, that captures both the sound and workflow of working on say an SSL4K. Once you learn it, It’s insanely fast to fly through a hundred tracks and get the bulk of what you want locked in place.
My real point, is that we haven’t so much reached a tipping point the way many think of it.
We’ve just added a bunch of new tools to the box.
You can still use a hacksaw, or plug in a skillsaw.
But now you can also slap a battery on a sawzall and leave the cords behind.
You’re still the carpenter, and if you prefer feeling the grain of the wood in your fingers while you cuts, or analog audio vocal passing through a fader into your index finger while you mix, (as opposed to a fucking mouse) , that’s your prerogative.
Last thought: To amplify what you said, My first Interface was a Digidesign ProTools Project System in 1996. I still have the 882, and it was 16-BIT!
When we started using ProTools, the OG DAW, it wasn’t even 24-Bit Fixed yet. (CDs are 16/44.1)
Even when they were, the 888s sucked, and you wanted Apogee converters.
Now, our DAWs are 32-Bit Floating Point, and there 50 companies making interfaces with 24/192 converters with high dynamic range and unnoticeable latency.
So pick your poison.
All approaches are valid now from a technical standpoint.
I don’t get, I tried few different converters and they are really different but each of them makes huge sounding picture that it’s impossible to get with internal audio cards from computers/Laptops I mean ITB as it means exactly that all in that computer/laptop. Also the last pic from Serban Ghnea from his studio all in the box but there are 3 converters on the desk lol
They could just be for monitoring or pitching and catching, also, Serban has a team and they turn multiple songs/mixes *a day* everyday
MixbusTv i agree with it but as I wrote when I do test music “only” through any converter (no hw inserts) vs ITB (internal in/out) the difference is obvious 😝
Didn't you use RME before Motu? ... did you use the conversion from RME or simply fed digital signal i/o and used other converter?
I used both RME and SSL
@@mixbustv So do you think that Motu has ultimately better converters than RME, or they are just as good and it's a taste thing?
@@catonlsd3 yes AVB series has better converters, when you mix hybrid with over 20 channels of outboard going I/O at the same time it's pretty easy to hear
Andrew Scheps is a MASTER and I wish I have the half or a quarter of his talent and career, and that is a fact, but he has to sell as well his stuff don´t you think??. RME Vs ARTURIA 8PRE ??? I don´t know if you already did it but can you make an A/B between analogue summing and digital summing or just put the link if is already online
I like Arturia pres better, I like MOTU better than both. I will probably have a summing unit soon sent to me for a test
stay in the box! my mistake thought it was advice about the corona epidemic :0)
I say remember who listen to all of our final products... people on streaming serives. through cheap ear buds, laptop speakers, phone speakers, and cheap usb powered computer speakers. Hell you cant even buy a cd anymore. With all that said, why go through the expense, hassle and extra time of going outside the box. Most of you hardly hear the difference, so do you think people who know nothing about music and have inferior audio equipment can tell the difference. Save your money, buy a second home, travel more, or get the sports car you always wanted. I am over buying gear. Maybe its just me an ex studio owner who hated that all my profits continually going to new gear to stay competitive. And btw I do love my new sports car.
Every business requires investment to stay competitive, studio gear is hardly an expensive one is you don't run a giant analog console, and if all your profit was going there that's not really how it works for most studios or engineers. But if the mindset is that of "they will listen to crappy speakers and they don't know anything about music" a reason not to mix or produce or recording at song in the best way possible then definitely a sport car is a much better choice. Everyone can tell the difference, and the fact that today we have many different media doesn't mean they are all crap, actually it means the mixes are harder to get right to translate, and that, it's skills, you can throw as much money as you want at gear, that's not it.
@@mixbustv my point is, we get to caught up in the details, make great songs, do great performances, and the slight difference in sound quality will never be missed.
When mixing vocals with hardware it is actually not only DA-AD conversion, but AD-DA-AD conversion, as long as you are not tracking with compression etc. When tracking vocals I don't feel very confortable with (hard) compression, so I got some really good converters (RME ADI-2 FS) to make sure that it really doesn't matter when the compression is actually happening.
No, you're a bit confused. When mixing, you're not recording, you're mixing. So it's DA-AD, 1 round-trip. You already recorded, that's why you're mixing. You go from the digital domain, your DAW, out into hw, back into daw. When you record with or without hardware compression it doesn't matter. The signal goes from your mic, preamp, into whatever, if you have nothing you go straight into you AD, if you have 1 or 20 hardware units it doesn't matter, not one bit because you stay in the analog domain until eventually you go into your AD anyway.
@@mixbustv ok, you got me :) anyways we are talking about three conversions, so I would say especially for vocals good converters can make a real difference!
If you watch Andrew's Namm 2020 Mix With The Masters (MWTM) talk, here on UA-cam (from the 26-minute mark, I believe) he makes his position very clear. And from what I remember, it had nothing to do with digital convertors, and everything to do with workflow, and not seeing anything to be gained from taling an already-digital sound, into the analogue domain, just to have to bring it back to digital again. He did praise analogue gear for the input/recording stages, however.
No he said that at some point, I remembered even when reading the question. Not the point, we change our minds and workflows all the time
@@mixbustv >>"we change our minds and workflows all the time"
I think big point is that he still uses all the nice outboard gear he wants when recording. Then he stays in the box.
Arto Peltomaa that is what he said last|
E. A Yeah. Also for the engineer who has a lot of projects, recalls are bit easier itb. 😁
Not necessarily, as a mix engineer you receive tracks, you have no idea how they were recorded and it doesn't matter, you have to make them sound like a record.
Also having gear in the signal path by itself it's not insurance for anything, plenty of shitty recording came out of amazing analog chains. And, we always recorded thru gear, we also always mixed thru gear, and mastered too, then you remove that and all of a sudden people complain that modern music sounds like crap..
record with valve gear in using valve preamps mics compressors where it counts for the particular song, at least using transformers, do the rest inn the box. let the mastering engineer get out of the box, think 23 time Grammy winner Al Scmhitt !
all this makes very little sense.. Al is a mix engineer, not a mastering engineer, and he mixes 100% analog, he doesn't even touch PT he has someone operating it for him. Valve gear is no better, it gives you no insurance that your material will sound better or up to par and it doesn't mean you won't need real mixing later or that the use of outboard will not give better results anyway.
Just a thought..
MixbusTv i understand your pov,
i can backup everything i said, and my opinion is subjective with objectivity underneath... here we go;
VALVE GEAR to combat sterile sound we getting from the conversion, here is the subjective part, it depends on you if you want to warm it up not better it from my pov.
MASTERING as i said and i believe hardware is superior, mastering engineers have better ears, why do they still have outboards? i was giving an option to track warm in with compressors to cut out plugins as outboard comps make a difference, i would rather eq in the box, no need to buy an eq hardware to cut a certain frequency. we are currently evolving to itb mentality propagated by plugin manufactures to buy this and that, at the end we use half of the plugins, we just fall in the pit again and again. tracking thru a console is what we long for in our hearts...Right? can plugins give us that? Al Schmitt tracks with tube gear just for the circuits' impartations.
Conclusion
there is a million ways to record, so my opinion is not cast in stone, Grammys is won ITB and OTB engineering.
I used to record myself playing the guitar on my phone and always listened to it without worrying too much about the audio quality and I actually thought it sounded good (before I got into mixing/mastering)
Sir, do you really need to explain why hardware is preferable? I thought any hobbyist knew that! :)
No, I needed to explain that 1 round-trip is not detrimental enough to decide not to use it