Triple-T #77 - How to make a ribbon burner
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- Опубліковано 6 кві 2022
- In today's Triple-T (tools, tips and talk) #77, I'll be showing you how to make a ribbon burner for a forge. (links below)
#tyrellknifeworks
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Do you have any questions about the construction? Also I suggest you follow the House / Work channel if you're interested in following a forge build. Brian is doing some cool work over there. 👍🏻
It will be interesting to see how much he sells them for.
@@stephenborders4654 yes, it will be interesting. I sure he’ll keep them competitive.
Why do all this effort with straws?
Why not just pour in mold then once its hard drill the holes.
Way less effort.
@@thegoldenatlas753 Clearly you've never tried to drill through this stuff! It extremely hard and it's too easy to crack it with a hammer drill and concrete bits. I've never seen anyone make a ribbon burner by drilling the holes.
@@TyrellKnifeworks hmm guess its different from refractory brick, thought it was just a pourable version of refractory bricks, which are really easy to cut/drill.
I love that you also use straws. I find that a dot of hot glue in the base of the drilled base plate holes to hold the straws snug makes it go a lot faster
Oh that's a great idea! Thanks, I'll add step when I do my new burner in a couple months. 👍🏻. Thanks for watching, Coulson!
Subjects like this video always remind me how you tell folks to invest in a welder. Builds like this always make me think of that. Great video! I’m going to have try try building a forge someday
Yes, welding is an essential skill! 👍 Thanks for watching!
Man! When that flame started I was like, "That's Beautiful". That's a really nice burner regardless of psi :)
Thanks, it turned out well. I haven’t done any forge welding it in yet but it’s the same as the last one so I’m sure it’ll work. 👍
What a great overview of the construction and math behind why/how these burners work. I've been wondering about the PSI measurement for a while, thanks for speaking about flow rate and how to measure efficiency more accurately.
Thanks for taking a look, Tyler!
That refractory looks great. Nice details on the build. The straw count on the feed pipe diameter was slick. ✌
I’m glad it helped you, James. Thanks for taking a look.
Very good instructional video! I've watched several but this is by far the most down to earth.
(As opposed to "Now we're just going to load the design for our mounting block in the cnc laser cutting table and let that run while I mix up a combination of liquid titanium and diamond dust for the burner pour...")
Ha, I wish I had a cnc. 🤣. Thanks for watching.
Thanks Denis thats by far the best explanation I have seen on the hows and whys of making a ribbon burner.
Thanks for checking out the video, Talabavin. 👍
You would make an excellent teacher as good of a job as you do explaining the process.
Thanks, Larry! I don’t do much teaching at work, but my other hobby is a scuba instructor so I’ve had some experience and training teaching. 👍
Excellent video - a ribbon burner is in my future. The switch of my burner from venturi to forced air was already life-changing. ;) Thank you for addressing PSI vs flow rate. I wish I could share that explanation with everyone who wants to build a forge burner. PSI is almost meaningless for measuring gas flow without further information - it took me a long time to figure that out too because the common way to compare burners in almost all forums is to use PSI.
I’m glad it was helpful, Jeff. Thanks for watching,
thanks denis i always get something from your videos appreciate what you do 😀👍👍
Thanks brother! I appreciate you following along! 👍
Very informational. I'm new to forging and in the process of building a forge and was planning on using a venturi burner set up but you changed my mind. I want it to be as efficient as possible. Definitely going ribbon burner.
You won’t be disappointed. Thanks for watching. Be sure to see my more recent video on this. ua-cam.com/video/xL8waDrGVlY/v-deo.html
Great video, Denis! I was going to call you, with some 'ribbon burner' questions, but this video covered it! I can't wait to start building my forge! Thanks for sharing my brother! 😎👍🏻🔨🔥🗡️
Thanks for checking it out, Bob! I’m happy it was helpful. Give me a call if you still have questions when you start the build.
Thanks for the video. I am contemplating building one in the near future.
Definitely go for it. They are MUCH easier to build than venturi burners and work better.
I'm almost done with my ribbon burner Forge, I'm going to make all the plumbing out of exhaust pipe instead of rigid threaded pipe. Excellent video👍
I guess exhaust pipe would work, just more welding I guess. Use it if you have it. Thanks for watching, Michael!
Thanks for sharing! I'm looking forward to watching you build your new one. I'm getting close to building my first, just want to make sure I have enough money to cover all parts.
Definitely collect all the parts before you start. I'm torn which is easier and cheaper, the fiber blanket vs the soft fire bricks. I am thinking the firebricks is easier and cheaper and probably safer, but on the next one I'm gonna do poured refractory over kaowool instead. I'll see how it goes. Thanks for watching!
@@TyrellKnifeworks probably overkill, but I've seen some builds with kaowool against the steel, then soft firebrick, then hard firebrick floor that can be changed out. Like this, they said the exterior remains quite cool (comparatively) and because the kaowool is held in place with the brick, not much need for refractory other than to hold the bricks together.
awesome fix! I like the way you're describing the new forge build. =D
I'm anxious to start on it but I've got too much work to do for Blade. 😬
@@TyrellKnifeworks I bet. It sounds great and it will definitely be more efficient too it seems.
Great video - and u r correct - I have the typical 3x Venturi burner works great but - turning multiple knives a week - the ribbon burner is definitely the Only way to go ….
Thanks for watching, David!
As a MIG welder, I tended to prefer telling people how many litres per minute (of argon/co2/mix) I ran on welds, I found that better as it took tank pressure out of the equation. Dunno if that helps, but thought I'd share the info.
Yes, that’s flow rate and exactly what I meant. Most people don’t have that on their propane reg so it’s not really something people will relate to unfortunately. Thanks for watching
I've talked about A book in prior episode?
Well I was procrastinating on it for two years. Got nothing done. Your video (and a fortunate sircumstance with a game)game me the reason to conti it. I feel zo released that I, finally getting daily progress on it.
Right now I'm at 21886 words and I may not have introduced copper Damascus just yet, but I'm so darn excited to do it.
It's my first one and I don't know most things. But I do wanna finish it !!
Thank you for your beautiful videos
Thanhs for following along! I’m glad my videos could inspire you to continue your work on that book. 👍
That’s great information about gas forges as I’m using a coal forge and I’m not that knowledgeable about gas forges 🖖
Glad it was helpful, Robert. Gas is certainly cleaner but has its issues like anything else. Thanks for watching.
Finaly someone mentioning the psi bullshit 😆 i have 1/4" hole straight into the pipe so i basically run zero pressure 😆
I guess your gas lasts infinitely then!! 🤣. Thanks for watching!
@@TyrellKnifeworks i wish 😆
That poor turtle! Oh, wait, wrong video.🐢😃
No turtles were harmed in the making of this video. 😉
Would like to see a build on that new forge
It’s coming soon. I’ll be doing a complete forge build in a couple months as well.
Hey Tyrrell, great update on your ribbon burner progression. I built mine following your previous build. Thanks I absolutely love it. I had the same issue with to much fire box area and used some split fire bricks to decrease it. With the shutoff closed, I'm 1-2 psi for working temps and 3-4 psi for welding temps. Although, the gauge one of cheapo's. Haha Your design is working great for me while I'm learning to move metal.
Btw, what do you do for CO issues? I get one monitors with digital readout and built an exhaust hood which moves about 800 cfm
That’s great to hear! For CO, I keep my garage open when the forge is on. My alarm never goes off. 👍
Very cool, ribbon burners apart from their efficiency also work a bit better at altitudes so if you're a hillbilly they'll pump out more BTU's than the equivalent set up of Venturi burners. About the only weirdness I ever found with them was they sometimes take some real fiddling to get down to idling flames where its just ticking over, first came across them in big industrial ovens and I think that's were they originated from. Someone needed to cook a pizza in 8min
Really? I have no problem at lower heats, just turning down the air does it. Have a gate valve on the air is a huge plus. Thanks for watching, Kris.
Спасибо, очень понравилось.
Спасибо за просмотр!
Awesome video Denis. I am pretty sure you and Brian House are in my head. Brian releases a vid on how to wire up a VFD at the same time I am wiring up my first VFD. You release a video on making a ribbon burner as I am getting the components together to build one. One question for you. How much of that refractory did you end up using for the burner? I am thinking of buying that type and then using the rest of it to line the forge I am building. I would imagine the 50 pound bag will be more than enough but just want to check.
I think I used about 5 or 6 plastic cups worth from a 55lbs bag, so you have plenty. Good to hear the videos are timely and helping you out. 👍. Thanks for watching, Doug!
Nice explanation on the PSI. Majority of the community definably have a misconception on this. More even heat for the same pressure based on burner design? Or is it more heat for similar gas usage to a venturi?
A ribbon burner is definitely more efficient. Not so much its shape but because it uses forced air vs a venturi. The venturi design requires a lot of gas be blown at higher pressure to cause the venturi effect which draws air down the tube. You also see more gas being burned outside the forge ("dragon's breath") because its not mixing well inside the forge. So it's really the forced air that gives you the gas economy. The ribbon burner equally distributes it across the length of the forge for a more even heat. I hope that helps. Thanks for watching.
If you want to compare the gas usage between ribbon and venturi burner place the bottle on a scale for a hour. weigh it before and after and you can figure how much gas you are using per hour. Do it on both burners. So how many cfm is your blower running. It looks like it burns real good. I keep wanting to up grade but have not done so. But you have about the best design from what I have seen. I am thinking of molding mine with a bit of a taper on it so it always seals good and I do not need the flange around the top.
Yes the weighing approach works but you really need to do a test for a few hours at least to get a measurable difference. I’ve since replaced this forge with a circular one. Check that video. It has links to all the parts. ua-cam.com/video/xL8waDrGVlY/v-deo.htmlsi=cPHntlYFhnwZmnGX. Thanks for watching.
Next time try vibrating with a jig or recip saw sans blade. Bigger lower frequency vibration will get the cement settled into every space displacing bubbles.
Thanks for watching, Mike.
Ooooo ribbon burner nice
Thanks for checking it out! They are super easy to build. 👍
@@TyrellKnifeworks oooo I'm building one got the fire bricks in yesterday
Think I'm going to be switching the big six burner out for a ribbon. I'll video the build.
You won’t be disappointed. A forced air burner is the way to go. 👍
A possible way to measure efficiency is by weighing the propane tank. Difference in weight after an hour of running the forge multiplied by BTU/lb of propane will give you the consumption in BTU/hr. Leaving a scale around the tank is useful anyway to check how much propane is left in it, tare weight should be stamped in the ring around the valve.
Yes, that’s certainly a way. Thanks for watching.
Nice burner build!!! Thanks for this!!! Where did you purchase the greencast?
There’s a link to the Greencast in the video description. Thanks for watching. 👍
@@TyrellKnifeworks thanks!!! Didn't see the "more" link.
Thanks! I hope I'm not driving you crazy with questions, BUT need to ask your opininion on what cracked the original block (KastOLite-30 maybe?)? I simply cannot afford that wonderful Greencast stuff - YIPE$! What if I reinforced the casting with tiny stainless steel fibers or something to help prevent such a crack?
Oh, and by the way (maybe this will benefit YOU for a change), many ribbon burners can "backfire" or pre-ignite inside the block if they become to hot inside after an hour or so. I have a tiny little 1-1/2 x 6 burner which does that. For that reason, I'm maybe going to paint a little bit of IR reflective Metrikote (cheap version of Satanite high aluminum coating) on the outer face of my burner.
Kastolite30 is just fine. What cracked mine WAS a piece of steel reinforcement in fact! That steel inside heated up and the burner cracked right through that location. I had the same thought process you are going through thinking it would make it stronger but didn't account for heat. So don't do it! I am finding I have that issue with the backfiring of the burner on my new forge. If I have more air pressure it doesn't happen though. I get it when the flames are "lapping" more. If there's enough air pressure that all the flames on each hole are solid, it doesn't seem to occur. I do find I have to take off the back door on my forge after about an hour or it gets too hot inside when I'm forge welding and this occurs. 😜
G'day Mate. If you weigh the gas cylinder before and after use. Then subtract Start weight by End weight you get the quantity of gas used in kg or lb. Also if you time the run and divide the quantity of gas used by the run time you end up with the flow rate in lb/hr or min. You can work the cost of gas used if you need to know that to.
Yes, I guess you could do that, but that’s a lot of work. I’m lazy and if I cared that much I’d just buy a flow meter. 😜. Thanks for the tip though, Daniel.
Put the burner at an angle!!! It’s a beautiful thing.
That forge is already made. In the next one I’ll consider putting it at an angle. I’m going to be doing a full forge build soon.
Good explanation
I'm glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching!
Temperatures and running time are proportional to the type of gas and gas amount used.. no matter what burner you use .... it is physics...
The burner gives you the "efficiency" of use, and the "control"...
You done a pretty good so far, but I always recommend adding a "back fire" prevention arrangement, it would prevent fire to stream back at the mixing tube up to the gas cylinder if it is left unattended... or you face a "power failure" at the blower...
I never leave my forge unattended when running, but I get the concern. Thanks for watching
Can see it is possible to get the refractory mix inside the straws. Why not use full length straws and hold them in place with hardware cloth?
You need to put the metal burner on top so the straws cannot be full length. Thanks for watching.
Question, is this 3" ID or 3" External diameter? Im working on my build now and trying to pick burner placement on my forge. I want to make sure my sizing is right.
This square tube is 3” OD. Square tube is always measured in its external size. Thanks for watching
Thanks for sharing. I am about to build one and I really needed to see one of these made. Now, about the pressure/flow rate, those are 2 different things. The forced air (especially the ribbon) burners can work at lower pressure as they don't need the output pressure from the nozzle to create the vortex to suck oxygen in. The size of the orifice is, as you said, bigger in a forced air system so the flow rate (gallon per minute) is still adequate even at 1 (for example) psi. That's how I was taught how the forced air system works, but I might be wrong, since I am not that smart. Do you have any equation to determine the size of the pipe in relation to the size of the forge? Thank you again, i really enjoy your videos
Yes, but remember psi is not a measure of how much gas is coming out of the tank, just how much back pressure there is. If you have a small opening it it creates more pressure. You could actually have the valve open more and be going through more or less gas. There’s no formula for the pipe diameter but if I were to do it again, I’d go with a 2” pipe and a larger blower. Thanks for watching
@@TyrellKnifeworks yes, that's exactly what I meant. PSI and flow rate are 2 different things and low psi and high flow rate (amount of gas coming out of the tank) can occur at the same time, if you have a large enough orifice
please can you explain how did you connect the needle valve to the 2 inches pipes? i saw the set screw you did... how did you seal it ?
I’ve since removed that. You are better off drilling and tapping a hole that accepts the 1/4” thread and not worry about a set screw. Thanks for watching.
im going to be building a ribbon burner. Is there a special way you have to introduce the propane into the air flow? how close to the burner do you want that?
Usually you want it at least 12" before the burner and preferably have a 90 degree bend after its introduced. That helps it mix thoroughly with the air. I hope that helps.
Have you ever heard using the air delivery system (motor) above the fuel delivery port is safer than having it below unless you're using a solenoid?
Nice job on the burner by the way.👍🍻
If your power fails, it probably isn’t going to make much difference above or below if you don’t have a solenoid. They are cheap, I’d just add one.
@@TyrellKnifeworks Often times when we have a power failure it's restored in a few minutes allowing the gas to build up before the motor kicks back on. It's my understanding the gas can accumulate around the motor due to the density.
My unit is atmospheric, so it really isn't a concern.
@@williamemerson1799 A few minutes of gas can cause an explosion. Just saying. 😉. If you have a venturi forge, a solenoid isn't needed anyway.
@@TyrellKnifeworks Right. As I mentioned, it isn't a concern for MY forge, being a atmospheric/venturi type, but seems like it might be a consideration for the folks using a blown/forced air forge. Curious.
+Tyrell Knifeworks Why not add some 3/4" or 1" firebricks along the sides to reduce the inner volume and increase the insulation? Seems you can always reduce the space of your forge to get more performance. Building a smaller forge to heat up faster seems like a waste if you can just add some more lining brick.
Yeah I could but, 1) I love building forges, 2) I want a longer ribbon burner because with the length of the forge, there are cold spots at each opening. It's fine but it might as well be a 14" forge instead of an 18". The new one will be 18" with a 12" burner. Thanks for watching, Derek.
@@TyrellKnifeworks I totally understand. I live in a big place where space is never a problem. If I run out of space in the work shop, I build another pole barn specialized for hot work, or a cleaner space for CNC machines, drones, 3d printers, chemistry, etc... I have a lot of hobbies in my retirement. :) So I get the sentiment about enjoying the build.
I was just offering that not so obvious to everyone solution, which is, to use a Lego like strategy with sacrificial K bricks to reduce the size of the chamber based on what you need at that forging. My main forge 36" long and a dual ribbon made of 10" square steel tube, so I typically only use the first 6-10" unless I'm making a long tool or a sword(which I've never gotten around to making, but was the reason for the long forge design). If I had to wait for the whole thing to come up to temp for a 6" work piece, it would burn a ton of fuel. And that's the main thing I hate wasting, time or fossil fuel. Great channel and thanks for the reply!
Approximately how many hours of run time do you get out of a 100 pound propane tank?
I don’t quite remember but it a lot. Probably 40-50 or so, maybe more.
Care to link the high speed rotary tool?
Here it is: www.riogrande.com/product/grs-ultra-850-high-speed-rotary-handpiece/118069GP?code=118069. Thanks for watching.
How many hours will that set up run on that tank?
Probably around 15-20 hours, depending if you are forge welding or not. Thanhs for watching.
The easiest way to know what your true working pressure is would be to put a gauge between the needle valve and the orifice. Still, a flow meter is more accurate.
For a ribbon burner, that will usually read zero. There's not enough back pressure to make the gauge read anything because the orifice is large enough to let all the gas through. I had one there and it never registered anything so I took it off. The flow meter from the tank is the only accurate measure.
For 3:15, I don't wanna be that guy... but you could also just use πr² = Area to calculate how many holes and how big to make them.
But then you have to calculate the size of a the pipe, then the size of the straw, then divide... that's way more complicated than just putting a bunch in the pipe until it fits. 😉. Thanks for watching.
🦍
thanks for watching!
Put a pilot light in there.
You mean in the forge? That's kind of a waste as you'd never want the gas on the all the time. It's easy to put a torch in the forge to light it.
Your the only channel that has ever mentioned how misleading the running psi everyone clams there running. Like I run a 1/8” orfice and run a little higher pressure than you do on roughly the same size burner. And running pressure vs not running pressure is completely different.
Yes, exactly. In speaking with a viewer about why his gauge (after the shutoff) wasn't reading at all, we talking about the lack of back pressure against the gauge. Then really started trying to compare. I'm not sure the most optimal orifice size and how to calculate that and that's something I want to research more on. Thanks for watching, Erik.
Um this maybe dumb but could you do a video on controlling a ribbon burner? How to get it hot enough to forge weld or cooler if you don’t need it as hot. Do you not adjust it? I want to make one but I don’t see videos on controlling them. Tons on making them none on controlling them.
I'm not sure thats enough for a whole video but I'll talk about tuning when I do my forge build in a couple months. Until then... with any forced air burner (ribbon or otherwise), you can control the gas and air separately. If you turn down the gas with the same amount of air, you'll get what's called an oxidizing flame. Lots of heat but also lots of oxidation and very little flames coming out the front. If you turn up the gas with the same amount of air, you'll have a reducing flame which isn't as hot but will burn all its oxygen and flames come out the front of the forge to get more air. If you turn up the gas and the air equally, you'll get more fuel and more air and a hotter flame. Once you've maxed out either your air or your gas pressure, then that's the top end. Make sense?
@@TyrellKnifeworks I thought i replied to this it must not have went. So you want the air gas mix even for forge welding? Like 1 psi? If i want less scale then more gas than air? Since i need heat for forge welding it sounds like it would be a more even mix? I will send you pics or video of my forge when complete. who knows maybe i will put it on youtube not how to just me doing it.
@@christopherconkright1317 Of course you need a hot enough flame for the forge welding, but enough gas so that you have a reducing flame is important. Too much air to gas ratio means you'll have an oxidizing flame and that's bad for forge welding. The best way to measure it is how much flame you have shooting out the front of your forge. When forge welding, get it hot enough but have at least 6" of dragon's breath, if that makes sense. Note, On a venturi burner, you always have a lot more dragons breath because there the gas/air doesn't mix as well before it hits the flame, thus the gas hits the outside air and combusts.
@@TyrellKnifeworks I ordered a pineridge ribbon burner I am not confident enough to make one just yet. Propane has went up to much to not use as little gas as possible lol. Okay so i want enough gas that i will have a good amount of dragon's breath when i need to forge weld but can reduce that back for normal smithing.
Put something on the forms to make them easy to remove.
The forms screw together, so you just unscrew them. See my later forge/ribbon burner build to see.
Sheesh
I'm hoping "sheesh" is a good thing? Thanks for watching.
I wonder if you could just make it all out of steel?
Just use a thicker plate on the bottom.
It would heat up like crazy though and would scale and decay quickly. Refractory is the way to go.
@@TyrellKnifeworks, Ok, thanks!
I've started, like so many projects, to build some of these. I just built a waste oil burner, again untested. But I've been thinking if it was possible to combine them with enough air pressure instead of a blower? I have a 10hp 250 gallon compressor. And 3 55gal drums of oil. My burner has provisions for LP for ignition & heat up. Just pondering...
Sounds a bit unsafe with compressed air. The pressure would constantly change, affecting your heat.
@@TyrellKnifeworks The waste oil burner I built is a siphon design, all Stainless with ball valves on each of the 3 inputs; oil, LP and the air which has its own moisture trap and regulator.
Funny, like everyone else I thought I wanted to make knives when forged in fire came out. But I learned quickly I can make more money making tools to make knives with. My few knives are one of my arts and I don't make them to sell, I gift them to family & friends. My wife looks at my welded metal sculptures and says I could sell that! Me; then I won't have one. I'm a one and done type. My boss says the same about my homemade tools, lol. I have 4 ribbon burners all welded, I just haven't done the refractory casting.
@@a.joegevara3519 you sound like a handy guy.
So the ribbon burner uses less gas, right? 😅
I'm not sure if that's a serious question, but no, it doesn't use less gas. Just less pressure. Flow rate is a totally different thing. Thanks for watching.
but the metal parts will rust over time. no?
No, not at all. I’ve had a ribbon burner for years and there’s no spec of rust. These don’t get wet, and if they did the heat burns it off quick. Thanks for watching
Что если вместо соломинок применить свечки из парафина и потом они выплавятся.
Соломинки просто вытаскиваются. Вам придется просверлить воск, прежде чем вы сможете его зажечь. Это занимает больше времени. Некоторые люди используют восковые мелки так, как вы думаете. Тем не менее, я думаю, что соломинки проще, но оба работают. Спасибо за просмотр.
1/16th is not hyper accurate? Shows the diggerent mindset between and craftsman like him and me. I would consider 1/16th to be pinpoint accurate if I did it
haha... that's no where near what I call pinpoint accuracy. A machinist would put this in the mill to drill the holes to 1000th of an inch accuracy! 🤣. Thanks for watching, Jonathan.
Why doesn’t anybody show a complete build you know hooking up the gas and air etc…
Watch my build on making a ribbon burner forge. This is just about making a burner. Thanks for watching.
Video seems decent but I can't see anything really bc of the words on the screen
Then turn off the closed captions.
Hello Tyrell, which steel is better for a Bowie knife out of these three steel, 5160, bearing steel, or an old file?
Any of those steels would be fine. Which one can you heat treat the best? The file is probably 1095 which can be tricky. The bearing steel is likely 52100 which is also a bit harder to work and heat treat. 5160 is trivial to heat treat so if you’re new, I’d say go with that. 👍
@@TyrellKnifeworksThank you very much.