"Pro Drum Teacher" Critiques Tim Ferriss' "How to Quickly Learn Drumming" - Can it Work for US?
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- Опубліковано 24 січ 2024
- Get your free show-notes (and a free drum course just cause I like you) - bit.ly/tim-8020
Tim's original video - • I Learned To Play The ... *
*I did not include this initially, not to be clandestine but simply because he's a bigger channel than I am, so there's no "clout" I'd be lending him by linking, plus I like to keep my descriptions sparse. Apologies to anyone I've offended.
I noticed something in the video that I believe wasn't explicitly mentioned. He applied the 80/20 principle to learn a specific song on the drums in just one week, rather than learning to play drums as a whole in that time frame. It seems like he intentionally avoided learning certain foundational aspects of drumming, like keeping a basic rock beat. In my humble opinion, this focused approach allowed him to quickly master the targeted song, but it might not necessarily mean he acquired a broader understanding of drumming skills in that short period.
Precicely!! My guitarist has this neighbour friend who got into guitar recently. The guy is loaded and can afford to have tons of cool gear... He's not obnoxious about it, he's actually a pretty chill guy and often times they swap gear to try out... He comes over occasionally to our band rehearsals to chill in the studio.. there's no way we could trick him into grabbing a guitar and play with us. He just learns the tabs to songs, plays the parts and that's it!! We also learn covers, either wreck them and rebuild from the ground up or stay generally true to the original and spice things up with our own take... but that guy can't do that... it's either 1000% true to the original to every millibeat you can count to or it's just not gonna happen.
To me that means you can't just macro-learn something in it's minute details without getting the big picture. Otherwise, it's pointless and you miss out on the opportunity to understand what you're doing, stand on the shoulders of those who came before and learn to jump higher!!
This is what irks me about that type of video (and it's not just a TF thing, though I guess you could argue a lot of it goes back to him). You can teach a three-year-old to memorize and recite a poem in a week if you pick the right poem. You can't teach them to write a poem in that time, because there's an entire vocabulary and syntax that goes into it. Music's much the same; someone could arguably do certain things by rote, but they're not "playing" in quite the same way an experienced musician would.
that 80/20 title card groove is so iconic now. also it disturbs me that tim ferriss chose to record footage of himself staring silently at the camera while he narrated over it
Pro moves
I think Tim did really well given his time-frame and goal - but yes, I've seen lots of videos like these where the person claims (for a clickbait-type of title) to have "learned to play drums" within a short period of time, but what they've really learned is to play one song. ONE SONG, that they've drilled over and over and over. It's not the same thing as learning to play drums, at all at all at all, but it does get the job done, if playing one song is your goal. The thing I loved most about that video was Stewart Copeland - he's such a character and such a nice, good-natured guy, too - I just love him!
if i could play triplets like shariq tucker in a week i'd be pretty satisfied with life, foreigner not so much
😂
I enjoyed the Ferris video, great fun. Seeing his emotions, fear to feeling a performance high.
Stuart Copeland was great, feel it. Ferris did a great job. The but is, that he was playing along using a simplified version. He’s not having to hold time, hold the band together, sound great - that is a big leap.
Love the nerd stuff !
Yeah, Foreigner played in my hometown at the Cerritos Performing Arts Center. I was there and had no idea what was going on. Tim was pretty bad, and I don't believe his kit was miced. While he had the general gist of the song. His time was off, and he seemed to get lost during the song. I was kinda pissed at the time wondering why the hell Foreigner would have a hack up there. I saw the video later, and I did feel bad for getting pissed. I now think it was a valiant effort by Tim.
Very interesting and many interesting comments too.
Thanks.
One thing that I have found interesting is how the 80/20 goes inverse; that 80% of your progress is gained by 20% of your input: the remaining 20% requires the remaining 80% of effort to acheive. Hence, why Tony, Dave, Vinnie, etc constantly practice(d).
I"m not sure that model 100% works, though I see what you're saying. I agree the last few percentage take the most horsepower, but I think even within Vinnie/Tony/Weckl's practice there's still a prioritization of the best practice methods. More so, even, because the higher your level the more the subtleties count and the less time you have to waste.
You got me hooked on statistics and nerd stuff more than my uni professor ever had
Love the William James “turtles” reference having just read Robert Sapolsky’s Determined.❤️
This is a great and interesting discussion. I saw an interview somewhere online where a neophyte drummer asked Simon Philips about attaining the level of mastery that Simon himself had attained. His response spoke of the other parts of his life that were not attended to in order to meet the investment required. It was delivered with a good dose of melancholy. It does seem that to be in the top 5% it requires a lifetime of commitment and perhaps to have it any other way would devalue being a master.
16:15 some people can practice while dreaming! 🤯 Awesome info and awesome video thank you!
Good video. A couple comments as a drummer who's been playing for 3-4 months:
Ive noticed that when im given a bunch of exercises by my drum teacher, i tend to spend more time on the movements i struggle with. I think that this is probably helping me learn a bit quicker than the opposite reaponse, especially because i think im being given useful things to practice.
And, this video helped me appreciate how fun it is to be a beginner. Although im not any good yet, by my own super high standards, the pace of the progress is really fun. I think i should try to appreciate it while it lasts!
I've been playing for about 3 months now. Not consistently though. I have nobody to compare myself too but I think I'm doing well. Sometimes it's frustrating but once you figure out something you're trying to learn it's so rewarding. I'm currently trying to figure out a quick off beat double kick. This is going to take awhile haha. I don't have a teacher. I'm just watching UA-cam videos.
That Justin Tyson performance lives rent free in my head.
you overestimate how much you can achieve in a year and underestimate how much you can achieve in three years
You also have to continuously try new ways to do the same tasks. Whenever you learn a new skill any particular exercise will hit an optimum learning but then taper off and experience diminishing returns. In order to make greater gains in the same area you have to repeatedly expose yourself to novel approaches.
Also, great vids! Subscribed.
I think I’m bout to 80/20 my brain 😂 Jesus it’s not a word anymore
This is a subject that I constantly have playing in my head. As a drum teacher for many years, I find that a few individuals will learn faster than all the others. Maybe one or two out of every ten - let's call it twenty percent. I think this is partly because they practice more, or practice more efficiently. I also think it is partly due to genetics. In my opinion, efficient practice is the most important component, e.g. practicing the most relevant skills, working mainly on things you aren't good at, repetition of motion, etc. So I put a lot of stress on the importance of good practice habits, but not everyone responds the same way. Some of the fastest learners will hit a plateau, and some will continue to improve. Some of the average learners will have a breakthrough & shoot ahead, while the rest will continue to make incremental progress until they decide to give up. I tend to think that the real 80/20 (in the case of music) is that twenty percent of music students are eighty percent more likely to succeed, partly because of the way they work, but mostly due to circumstances beyond anyone’s control. While I am a strong believer that everyone can benefit from music instruction, only a small percentage will get good, and only a small percentage of those people will make a career in music.
I think Anders Ericsson’s work complicates this slightly
Paretto concept : the more peas you plant, the better chances of growing a "productive" pea. Happy drumming!
You made my brain hurt Nate lol What I would say is, there are those among us that just have certain physical and mental gifts that enable what seems to be, orders of magnitude improvement over shorter periods of time. For myself, I'm certainly no Vinnie, but the good Lord did bless me with ears and memory capacity for picking things up and retaining them pretty quickly. Those attributes were invaluable not only when I started getting serious about playing, but when I started to get into bands. I've only had maybe four or five auditions in my playing career, if you will. But I aced every one of them because of my ear and memory retention. But also somewhere in there I had some natural skill, because I just instinctively knew what to do, even at an early age. Nobody had to explain or show me about the bass drum, snare drum, hi-hat, and how to put those together to make a beat. Somehow, I just knew. Obviously I saw things on TV, but I never had a serious lesson until I had already been playing for around 7 or 8 years, including my first couple of bands...👍😗
100% false. there is no such thing as talent. the only thing humans are born knowing how to do is poop and sleep, can't even feed ourselves. so no you are wrong everything that isn't pooping or sleeping is learned behavior. period. 100%. inarguable.
I'd split the difference. It seems like certain people have innate abilities that lend themselves to certain things better. I take Dan Coyle at his word that there's no way the evolutionary environment selected for stock brokers, but certain people are more social than others, and others are autistic back-room types who calculate the trajectory of the spear throw for the next hunt. We also have physical variation - obviously not everybody can be a basketball player or a football player, or a ballet dancer. So I'd imagine some of that natural variation lends itself to more interest in or aptitude for certain things. That's just table stakes tho. Where teachers play seems to be taking people who already have that aptitude and saving *them* time reaching their goals.
@@8020drummer Agree with you on all of that... I do believe, however you want to think it happened, that certain people are predestined or touched with certain traits or talents that, they seem to find the path to best utilize them (whether it's an athlete, musician, doctor, etc). And to the rest of us, it seems like they have the God-given talent that none of us will ever attain, no matter how much we practice, study or shed, what have you..
@@BrianH020 while I stand by what I said most of the time I hear this type of stuff it’s just cope from people who haven’t worked hard enough 👆. Sorry 😬😬
@@8020drummer I get what you're saying, and sure, there are those who will cop out and just say, "Well I can never get there, they just have talent I never will!" I'm secure enough (maybe because of my age, 56?) that I know, even knew years ago, there was probably little chance of ever scaling the mountain as high as say Vinnie, or one of my personal heroes, Steve Smith, even if I did shed the mythical 10,000 hours. I gained enough skill to play how and what I wanted to play. I gained enough to cross my own personal finish line of satisfaction and success. Which is obviously, different for everybody. Some people are satisfied with playing four on the floor, two and four, and straight 8s on the hat. If they gain enough to accomplish that, they're happy as a clam. Others it's a much different and more difficult line to cross... But I will say, those players at the peak of the mountain, I always looked to for inspiration. I was never one of these that got down after seeing one of them perform at what appeared to be otherworldly levels of talent. I know, at least I think I do, you're not the world's biggest Buddy Rich fan. But he had a quote one time, where he said he absolutely disliked people coming up and saying they just wanted to quit after watching him or hearing him. When he would've rather have them say, they were *inspired* by watching him, even if they knew they could never get to those heights...
I think the video is fake, to an extent. No big deal, but if you look at the very first time he plays a beat with Copeland, his stick grip is way to normal and relaxed. Beginners always grip the stick very tightly or less often way to light. I've absolutely never seen beginners grip the sticks so confidently. I think he definitely touched sticks before.
What do you think of the 10,000 hours to master a skill concept?
I think it’s mostly legit with some caveats
You can accelerate processes and spend more time on technique craft Independence etcetera the maturity, development and intent of flow only comes with long time and awareness behind a kit that cannot be accelerated in an experiment. I am a fan of Tim's knowledge end experiments but I would have liked to see him play with the band alone
What is going on at 13:50? Why does it look like the hi-hat is is being hit while the stick is not hitting it?
Just a video frame rate anomaly. Looks crazy
I believe any skill could be learned in a much faster time than many people realize, but even if you practiced 12 hours a day for a week, with the world's greatest teacher guiding you, you will not come remotely close TO REMOTELY CLOSE to a master.
Fractals.....LOL!
I liked the guy who said he could beat Magnus Carlson, the greatest chess player who ever lived and 4 times world champion if you don't consider his victories with different time controls. He'd have done better boxing against Tyson in his prime. I believe he prepped for a month.
I think you could have used 20% of the words to convey 80% of the message. 😉
Could I? How? Summarize it for us
But the algorithm would have 100% not liked that.
Nothing can be mastered in a week. NOTHING!
Seems like he’s not trying to master the drums… just sound good enough on the one set
It’s probably not fair to expect everybody to watch to the end, but I Did address this in a number of places ;)
This is like the difference between Steven Segal as a singer and Steve Martin as a banjo player. Steven Segal is an amateur who never would have recorded without his own money. Steve Martin plays with top groups and more than holds his own. BTW, Jeff Goldblum is in my opinion in the middle.
Don't believe it? Compare.
ua-cam.com/video/73A_HB5k--M/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/6lLOQ9Y9hwM/v-deo.html
It's literally impossible to master drumming.
Sure but if we operationally define “master” as “learn drums as well as a commercial airline pilot understands planes”
Wait,,, so the brilliant thought leader's optimized method for learning the song was to focus on practicing the song's 3 drum beats??? WTF else would you focus on practicing if you want to play that song? The 80/20 principle doesn't even apply b/c those three beats aren't 20% of the song. They are 90-95% of the song.
You're definitely a smart and insightful guy. But, despite this video, you're still largely uncritical of the bullshit being flung in the tech/mindset/entrepreneur milieu you've learned these concepts from.
Yes, one should practice challenging new skills and prioritize the most difficult parts of whatever music they're learning. But showing Ferris playing the song's beats and referring to them as "high leverage kernels" is just pablum man.
what else am I supposed to criticize? This is a channel about drums.
@@8020drummer The fact that they, and by extension you, are often just repeating conventional wisdom, dressing it up with some slick pseudo-scientific terminology and then labeling it as innovative or disruptive thinking.
@@scottyt5918 damn you’re coming in hot. We’re definitely leaving “how you’d talk to me in person” territory, and entering “twitter dunking”, but ok: give me one example of something wrong I’ve said, or me re-labeling conventional wisdom is though it’s new or disruptive.
Apologies for the online bluster. Again, I think you’re smart, insightful and possess the self-awareness to entertain blunt criticism. When you’re not in galaxy-brain mode you offer practical, effective advice that helps people make meaningful progress on the drums.
#1 - “What if I told you that 80% of what you’re practicing is a waste of time.” - That’s an absurd claim to make given that, at best, you have extremely limited anecdotal evidence of what I or anyone else is practicing.
#2 - Citing Ferris’ approach as an application or evidence of the efficacy of the Pareto principle. See my first comment.
#3 - The ridiculous hypothetical scenario you concocted where Drummer A practices everything but the song they’re supposed to learn until the very end of their practice time and Drummer B, our intrepid 80/20 drummer, takes the innovative approach of actually practicing the song.
#4 - Claiming that the 80/20 method can condense 10 years of progress into 5 years of work. Again, you don’t have anything beyond the thinnest anecdotal evidence to back this up.
@@scottyt5918
#1) my own video from 2013, which I was sharing as an antecedent to my evolved views
#2) entire premise of the video is critiquing and examining Ferris’s approach and I think that’s abundantly clear from as early as the thumbnail
#3) not ridiculous at all. If I showed you literal survey results I’ve received from hundreds of drummers you’d believe me
#4) presented as the hypothesis most likely to be true
And that’s wild for you to claim to know what anecdotal evidence I have or don’t have. I could just as easily say you don’t have the thinnest evidence that I don’t have any anecdotal evidence. For the record, I have Tons. A decade of admittedly correlational experience seeing students’ trajectory change coincident with when I started working with them, which I’m the first to admit lacks a control.
I guess I’m mildly insulted that not only do you question my intellectual rigor but you do so in such unrigorous ways.
I try to caveat everything appropriately and the fact that you’re not recognizing that is bordering on bad faith.
Question for you: how familiar are you with Bayesian thinking and decision making under uncertainty, and the principles around that
Alfredo Potato.
I don’t even know what that means but I like it
@@8020drummer that's what I call vilfredo perado. Alfredo Potato.
@@8020drummer oh and thanks for all the great tips I just started playing again after a hiatus to learn guitar. Your channel has become my favorite. I wish I knew you were in Vancouver for drumeo I would have loved to meet you and talk drums.
Really nice debunking of the bullshit aspects of "the power of positive thinking." Positive thinking is great motivation, but there's never a substitute for the right kind of hard work. Me, I play bass. I love the autistic stimming a groove gives me, drumming feels too much like sport to me and I'm an in-my-head guy, which bass helps me get out of. I have had a drum kit for almost the entirety of my retirement, now I'm robotising it for my drum machine because, well f** it, I'm never going be a drummer. This isn't negativity, guitar and bass are my jam. If the motivation were the opportunity to drum with my fave act in a week or 2, I'd probably get there, but I'd hate drums every after, despite the happy moments on stage. Motivation and reward are far more important than positivity. A physical and emotional connection to an activity are equally important. Commitment to the right stuff, as you point out time and time again, is gold.
But it all boils down to hard work. I put in the hard work on bass, 37 years playing guitar and bass in bands you've never heard of, and never will hear of, and loved it. I love a drummer who's done the work before we rehearse or play. I've been sacked for phoning in my side. But I had 20 years in a band that wasn't always my thing, because we had fun, doing what we love. Find that, and everything happens in an instant. That's my 80/20 approach.
You cant master drums period.
tell that to vinnie
I'm sorry, but that video from Tim is hella wack. He can barely play.