FATAL FLAW WITH MSE??? (sneak peak interview) Dr. Lipkin
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- During the anticipated 2nd interview with Dr. Lipkin, we discussed a very intriguing topic about MSE, a possible fatal flaw about the appliance!
Full interview will be dropping Feb 20th!
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0:34 Right Image post arch support removal
Damn, we are so fortunate to have Ron. Can’t wait for the interview.
ong
We could simply cut through the speculation by doing CT scans before and after MSE treatment, I would be very interested to see whether or not mid-face recession actually occurs following treatment.
It's as he said, the nasomaxillary complex moves forward but the teeth move backwards as crowding is reduced.
@@shuikai272 yeah, doesn't sound too good but that makes sense. It won't really be a problem for me though since I plan to follow up my MSE with a bimax
@@Anglo-EgyptianMan but that is an easy fix in conparison. Once its our you can realign teeth.
@@Anglo-EgyptianManI mean if your incisors are flared due to overcrowding of a narrow palate then this would be beneficial
@@ellescer that’s how my teeth are… all of my top teeth have been flared out ever since my braces came off 12 years ago. My ortho said the only way he could fix it was to remove my canines and put braces back on to close the gaps, but I didn’t want to do that. I would love to expand with MSE and have my teeth be in a more normal vertical position.
I believe if arch support isn’t maintained, the shape of the maxilla bends during expansion Due to the shifting of the teeth. This affect directly impacts the rest of the facial bones creating a forward bow in the outside of the face, and an inward bow in the middle because of the bones being flared out. I think this affect could be minimized or negated with proper headgear and maintaining arch support.
Call me crazy, but I will be replacing my MSE with a new MSE with front arch support 💀🤷 I’ll keep everybody updated I’m curious to see my CBCT’s after all of this. Based on Dr Lipkins reaction to the question, it seems to me that the consequences of losing arch shape may be an oversight
Can I ask who your Doctor is?
@@lena990 Dr. Zubad Newaz
@@jawley do you know if he uses the piezo with MSE?
@@probablyility1309 Yes he did w me and I’m under 25
@@jawley what did Newaz say about it? I'm getting my second MSE with him too, he is removing mine this Saturday. I might just tell him to add support as well
I mean think about it, if the front teeth come back, your ability to mew is restricted further increasing the likelihood of bad oral posture therefore causing some form of cranio facial dystrophy. While the majority of the sutures are WEAK… that cannot be good for asymmetry. If the maxilla essentially collapses in the middle, this has to have some sort of impact on the rest of the bones due to the influence the maxilla has. I still believe if teeth recess back the bone in front will dissolve slowly due to lack of stimulation. I think this is a very important topic and could be an oversight within the scans because while the expansion changes the position of the bones and shape slightly giving the appearance that they’ve majorly just repositioned, it’s still worth thinking about the importance of maintaining that arch shape due to how difficult it would be to re attain after relapse. Not to mention root resorption, bone resorption, tooth tipping.. this is like 4 months of braces that could be prevented all together post treatment.
So are you saying there are cons of mse expander. That’s what I always thought if teeth shift after braces can’t your arch shift as well? If you don’t follow proper tongue posture
What are your thoughts on the ALF appliance?
How would you prevent asymmetrical expansion during mse?
Eternally grateful for your life changing content, and for your authenticity! Any chance you can recommend an MSE provider in Florida?
Dr. Zubad Newaz
Hey Ron, could you talk about the issue of the maxilla being pulled forwards but downwards that happens with Facemask?
Amazing information. You are doing the work of the Lord.
What you're describing makes it seem like MSE holds great promise for decompensation prior to double jaw surgery, no? If it pushes the arch back (without the dangers of extractions but with the benefit of wider palate) then should it not allow the maxilla to be advanced even more in surgery without creating too much of an overbite post upper jaw advancement?
Good thought! Man, my audience is so impressive with their dental ingenuity and common sense.
@@JawHacks Flaring the teeth to "straighten" a crowded palate wouldn't have the same effect would it?
@@JawHacks Faring the teeth would have the opposite effect, right?
@@sneakerhead4124 yeah sometimes I think some orthodontist know what they are doing if you flare out teeth it creates enough space to properly sit in when it is put back together through braces. So no need for mse unless you need it for deviate septum I still don’t think it causes major face change. Mewing does as muscles grow
@@JawHacks What I'm wondering is whether MSE "pushing the arch back" is guaranteed, or whether it only happens in some patients. If it's only in some patients, then it cannot be relied on as a method of decompensation before jaw surgery.
When you open your mouth wide VERTICALLY , it tightens your cheek tissues, therefore it tries to collapse your arch and narrow it horizontally.
The same thing occurs when you widen your arch HORIZONTALLY with MSE, it tries to collapse the arch from front to back, and the tissues pull the front teeth distally/back.
but lets say i want to achieve forward growth + lateral expansion with mse. how can this be optimalized? since i dont want my upper arch to retract, rather move forward.
@@yeboi8026 , that’s probably another reason why you don’t want to expand horizontally AND vertically in the same surgery. It’s probably just too much enlargement for your tissues to handle. You would have a limited amount of expansion if you tried to expand both dimensions in the same surgery. I think horizontal expansion with MSE takes place first, followed by anterior-posterior expansion 2nd, with MMA.
Doing some daydreaming here: ideally, knowing that your tissues are being pulled tight with expansion of any appreciable amount, you would “ideally” need to pre-stretch the tissues first, so that allow boney expansion to take place without relapse. …but this “pre-stretching” of tissues first, is unheard-of…that’s probably why Dr Yousefian’s lingual arch-wire is a good idea. Until the tissues can stretch on their own, over time, to the new, larger, dental arch form.
@@tjam4229 maintaining front arch support is something these orthodontists have over looked and undermined as a factor for midface recession. If a patient wants protraction WITH NO MMA I believe it can be achieved with MSE, maintaining full arch support, and the correct headgear. Maybe the headgear isn’t quite there yet, but I can see within the next 1-3 years maxillary protraction and upswinging will be a possibility with MSE
@@jawleyany updates on this? Any good headgear or orthos that consider this? I do not want mma
From what I've seen... Broadly speaking I think retracting your teeth, reducing incisor flaring, is a good thing. If your incisors are flared out because your maxilla is underdeveloped, and then you expand it and the teeth retract, that's a good thing. People with naturally optimal jaw development don't have a lot of incisor flaring. As long as the incisors are flared out within a normal range then I don't see an issue.
My orthodontist plans on using a quad helix following my MARPE expansion - could this be a way to maintain a forward arch at all?
Anyways, keep up the good work, it's appreciated.
Make sure it has front teeth support and is in use DURING expansion not after
I was misled by the title, where I come from fatal has a different meaning.
I noticed this with Non MSE appliances
What's that thumbnail😂😂😂
I wonder if this would happen with TANDEM expanders, since those have more anterior support and would also split towards the front to a greater extent (thereby off-setting -potentially- the "lowering" effect mentioned by Lipkin).
I don't think the midface itself recesses back, especially if you're wearing a facemask. It's only like he said, the lip causing that effect.
i wonder if Face Mask could cause mid face recession similarly to what he's saying at 1:06
No, since the facemask works to directly off-set that effect by pulling the actual bone (for reference, the direction of the force is opposite the recession, unlike the lateral expansion of MSE which is perpendicular to the anterior-posterior plane)
I don't think so, as its entire purpose is to counter act recession. Maybe with the older horrible face mask design models but crane or bow probably not
Not if you let the bone-fill happen and everything consolidates. It's just like MSE but in the forward direction.
If the back molars are being pulled this would only amplify the sides of the face coming forward if there is no arch support
@@jawley Maxilla is a whole, singular structure. The causation between pulling on the molars and ONLY bringing "the sides" of the face is non extant.
Did he say you can correct a class 3 with mse by taking out the appliance? or is leaving it in the key? Is the orthodontic part on the molars postponed until the rest of the teeth can come forward because youd need a facemask to correct a class 3 or am i wrong?
I think he meant taking out the arms -which is what anchors the molars- and not the central appliance.
Wouldnt schwarz appliance be the perfect appliance then? Since its like an mse but it expands forward aswell creating a balance between lateral and forward growth
Schwartz is tooth borne
That is what i was hoping too but according to Ron and others it will likely give more problems than benefits since it is toothborne.......
Idk bro normal appliances are bad except maybe Mike new stuff
Hello! I'm searching for an orthodontist in Oklahoma (OKC area) and am struggling to find one that's knowledgeable on MSE and palatal expansion. Do you happen to have any recommendations?
Please don’t get facial expansion unless u must
Why?
@@sneakerhead4124 because it is a permanent alteration to the skull for the rest of your life, a novel procedure at that, with unknown long-term ramifications.
MSE is not bubblegum. It should be treated like surgery because its effects are irreversible and largely unknown
how much does a mse + tads procedure costs from dr lipkin
Only go for bone borne expanders.
Why are you releasing it in more than 2 months? What is the point...
Hey. I have a serious question if love to be answered, when will 1 on 1 consultation become available again? Thanks
Chadrovert
May
Ron, there have been several comments that you are being compensated by Dr. Lipkin for social media marketing thru these videos. I don't know if this is true, so can you please provide any disclosures of conflict of interest you may have with any of your videos? Thanks.
A few months ago, my channel was raided with hate/spam comments directed by a victim of homeoblock.
(Addressed in this video)
ua-cam.com/video/TLeSyYbyz3M/v-deo.html
So if you see any of these comments, kindly ignore or report them. Thanks ❤️
Don't you think there is a conflict of interest in orthodontics when it comes to addressing the inevitable serious facial and health consequences of braces, elastics, headgear etc, because saying that these practices cause harm would make it so that their very very long and expensive college education would be worthless, and they would have to resort to flipping burgers? Orthodontists made a median salary of $208,000 in 2021. Don't you think this is why Mike Mew is being harassed by the orthodontic mafia, despite his research being proven right time and time again? Crooked teeth didn't exist in preindustrial society, medieval skulls were large and could accommodate all 32 of their teeth (most people after orthodontics only have 24 teeth) so why are teeth crooked now? The orthodontic industry ADMITS that crooked teeth are caused by small jaws, so why are our jaws getting smaller? Could it be bottlefeeding? Soft foods? Allergies? Orthodontists KNOW that mouth breathing causes deformed faces, and that their patients almost always look uglier, yet they still claim jaw growth and crooked teeth are genetic, so that society can keep suffering and they can keep GRIFTING! This is why a pro retraction orthodontist would never debate either of the Mews or Ron because they KNOW they are wrong, if you know you are lying, and have no facts to support your argument, OF COURSE you are not going to debate your opponent, you just SLANDER them and HARASS THEM.
Ron is clearly a selfless person and he is doing gods work. If he really cared about money like you keep spamming in the comments of his videos he could become an orthodontist and make a six figure salary. He probably makes about 10k-20k off of consultation fees a year considering its 100 dollars and he probably does 100-200 session a year, but if he didn't charge any money wayyyy more people would want to talk to him and it would be too much for him to handle, so many have been mutilated by orthodontics and bad habits you can't just expect him to talk to 1 thousand people a year, it just wouldn't be feasible. And his consultations are very valuable, and besides, he puts out tons of UA-cam content for free so you don't have to consult with him...
Also Muhammad/Homeoguy this is very cringe bro stop hating on Ron! leave em alone
@@JawHacks Ok, but you didn't answer my question- are you compensated for your videos with Lipkin?
Look at my previous posts on your videos- they're positive. You saved me from potentially getting AGGA. THAT SAID, It's critical that you disclose any conflicts of interest so ppl know if you have a financial interest in highlighting Lipkin (and others).
Not being compensated at all. Have never been compensated by any doctor that I've had on the channel.
Thanks buddy I appreciate your support and friendship. @aidan hauser
How old was Ron actually, when doing the MSE?
I think 28
Wilson David Hall John Johnson Anthony
Please stop categorising all mse as one.