.38 Special+P Vs. 9mm? How Do They Compare?
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2024
- Just giving a real world run down of how these cartridges compare in the real world, my take on them, and giving some ballistics numbers. @ 5:08 and 6:50 I meant to say ft lbs energy, not feet per second*
Well done, Logical, Precise and informative. Please give us more. Thank you.
Nice job! Good info. I’m generally in the same camp if I think there’s an opportunity for a bigger thing to go down in a bigger space, particularly with longer distances, I want the auto loader. But for general grab and go always have something get somebody off you. Can’t beat the wheel gun. There’s something cool and classic and historic and nostalgic maybeabout them
I am not a balistics expert by any measure, but doesn't the slightly heavier bullet on the 38 Special count for something as far as stopping power goes?
What I think a lot of people over look is that a 38 standard pressure 90 gr. RN is very capable of killing someone with one round. It's more about shot placement than it is about the power of the cartridge. An Underwood or even a Buffalo Bore + P isn't going to do you any good at all if you're going to miss your target. If you're someone who uses American Eagle LRN at the range and can hit your target, you're far better off with that, if you can't manage or handle the recoil of those plus P's. Plus p's can get expensive when using them for practice shooting. But if you're someone who's going to be carrying them, you better run about 75 to 100 rds to practice with before you start using them for C&C.
Even those old black powdered 36 cal. cap & ball revolvers can get the job done. It's strange to me how revolvers always seem to get a bad rap these days. Great video Sam. I'm very happy that I subbed your channel. Peace..
Yeah your right about everything to me . I own a .45 sig p220 m y father gave me , he had several pistols a Smith and Wesson .38 a Smith and Wesson pistol in .3220 a Smith and Wesson .357 with a six inch barrel, and a Smith and Wesson pistol in .9mm and I liked the .38 special the best to me they are just pistols they will do the same really brothers and sisters even a .22 will send you the blue sky , I like my pistol because it shoot good but caliber I'm not fussy I like if a gun fells good to shoot and is accurate and I'm satisfied , people of the earth just known your good you all do is needed and appreciated , and known that the good guy all ways wins !!😊
I like the Ruger LCR. They have both 9mm and .38 spl LCR's. .38 spl all the way for one very important reason... the .38 spl LCR is lighter and thus more comfortable to carry. If it's more comfortable to carry the you are more likely to carry it!
I'm old school....i carry 38+p as my off duty
I use both Glock 17 for duty. And model 60-7 38special for carry off duty.I trust them both to get the job done.
I want to see a 9 mm revolver video snubnose versus snubnose 357 please!
You should check out the test done with The Ruger LCR9mm. Very impressive. Shoot as good or in most case's better than Micro 9mm's. And in a "SHORT" barrel, will do better than 357.
I never heard of 600 ft lbs energy in a 2" barrel, which I have indeed clocked with some Buffalo Bore 125 gr .357 Mag at 1,470 FPS from my Taurus 605 - 2" barrel, but typical 125 gr magnums do about 1,250 FPS. A 2" 9mm might do better in being weak and easy to control, but it's certainly not better for energy and velocity. You would be lucky if you could get a 124 gr+P up to 1,200 FPS.
I used to be in Sales. One day I called on a business run by a retired cop. On his wall was a shadow box display case of a S&W Model 10 and five empty cases, "Why five?" I asked, knowing the revolver held six. He told me that these were the actual spent cases of the rounds that had killed five bad guys during his 30 years as a police officer. And, they were .38 specials. So, one-shot kills! Now, I had no way of knowing if this was the truth, but the man himself was a straight shooter and not a bullshitter, so I believed him. I'm just passing this on for what it's worth.
From my knowledge, a lot of departments used different loads so it's hard to tell. I do know a retired cop that shot two people with 158 gr LRN ammo. He said one shooting it was one shot stop. The other said he needed more than one. Considering he got a one shot stop with LRN and some departments used 158 LHP+P and +P+ Treasury loads, and how revolver hollow points are wider than semi auto hollow points, I don't doubt your guy.
When carrying one of my revolvers i use to carry spare rounds but no need in real life situations u dont hv time to reload, so i just carry a bck up .. best is diamond back db 9 gen 4
My wife loves Federal HST 38+P's, in her model 66! She shoots it very accuratly and her follow up shots are pretty quick.
S&W 442 DAO HAMMERLESS AIR WEIGHT HIP-ANKLE CARRY OPTIONS
I like reliability. Much less chance of malfunction with the revolver and for me a more accurate shooter.
The revolver is also more consistent for me, if I miss with a revolver, it's something I did wrong and can correct. With an auto, there might be something more going on that I can never correct.
I agree. I have several compact 9 auto's I purchased before my revolvers. Now, I have a S&W 642 Airweight 38+P and a Ruger SP 101 in .357 mag (the 101 stays beside my bed). I enjoy them all, but when I'm carrying, I'm going with the small S&W 38+P
Douglas Cobb : I'd have to respectfully disagree. Although I can appreciate the fine workings of a revolver, autos these days such as Glocks, Sigs, CZ's, etc are as reliable as any revolver will ever be. Any malfunction that may possibly occur are also extremely easy to correct 98% of the time with a rack and/or tap whereas if a revolver jams up it is most likely a more serious internal problem. There are also more reputable brands of good reliable autos while I would only trust my life to a Smith &Wesson or Ruger revolver. Then there comes the argument of capacity which I'm not goin to make, but I am going to say that I prefer the triggers on 'improved' striker fired guns over the pull of da/sa revolvers as I hate the pull of even the smoother double action only snubbies out there. Autos tend to be more streamlined, thinner, and easier to conceal as well in my opinion than the majority of most revolvers. Recoil mitigation is also much more efficient in a locked breech design than that of a revolver, so if I had to carry a revolver it would probably be a 3-5in barreled S&W in .357/.38spl as I find that range of barrel length to lend itself best to incredible accuracy. Auto ammo is also simply cheaper than revolver ammo and there are more calibers to choose from. For the majority of people reloading is quicker with an auto as well, although there are some out there who can do it just as quick if not faster with a speedloader. There are probably a couple more points I could make but I'm tired of typing lol, still adore revolvers tho
@@taylorrhodes1895 The question is, are YOU reliable? EDC guns are meant to be there for you when you are caught off-guard. I've had limp-wrist malfunctions with guns such as the M&P Shield when I am not even under stress. When I am surprised and under stress, I think a double action revolver which is as easy as point and pull the trigger as many times as I need to is preferable to an autoloader which has a few more steps involved depending on what happens in that moment. The simple, intuitive way a revolver operates helps you eliminate some human mistakes that can occur with an autoloader.
Of course, if you are absolutely confident in your ability to quickly and correctly operate your autoloader, and deal with any problems that might come up instantly, then I think you should carry one. But for me, I would prefer a revolver to avoid limpwristing under stress. Also if there's a problem with a bad primer or a squib, I want the solution to that problem to be to just pull the trigger again, which is not a feature of an autoloader.
@@taylorrhodes1895
I do appreciate your input although, I would still prefer a revolver over a semi-auto for EDC. You can fire a revolver while it's still concealed inside your coat pocket. You just can't do that with a semi-auto. So that's my $0.02.
An good ole 357 will get it done my favorite round!!
Why would I, who got rid of my Beretta military issue 9mm for two formidable 45 ACP's go out an buy a little Ruger snub-nose LCR +P. There's added benefits not listed in ballistic specs. I live in Florida, where A - you will never be up against a guy in a leather jacket, B - I can't fit a decent 9mm or 45 in my pants pocket, C - Hornaday Critical Defense +p 38 110 grain boasts a muzzle velocity of 1090 fps, D - the Ruger LCR costs less than $400, D - no exposed hammer (or anything) to catch on clothes, E - no safety and no need to cock it (chuck chuck - I'm right here!) and give away you position, F - REVOLVERS DON'T HAVE SAFETIES OR "JAM" , G - you can load one , put it in a drawer for 30 years, pull it out and it still fires (no relying on WORN OUT springs to chamber the next round. Revolver cartridges stay firmly chambered and ready.
Personally my first choice is a 12 gauge with tight group wadding - but I scale down from that to .45, then to my little Ruger pocket rocket as the situation dictates. The right tool for the right job.
I also had an S&W Airweight and I can tell you they are no fun to shoot - the kick like a mule and hurt your hand. But in a close range confrontation nobody aims or even feels recoil. From six or so feet away, in five shots or less, the game is over ,-\
Great logical analysis here. And I think the measured, realistic facts point towards 9mm and 38+p being highly comparable from a ballistics standpoint. There are pros and cons to both types of firearms that chamber these rounds as well. For example, I think an LC9 is a great alternative to an LCR if that particular shooter finds it easier to carry and/or easier to shoot.
I do a lot of digging for opinions on 38 +p because it tends to be what I recommend for inexperienced shooters who want a home defense gun. The type of person who will buy their first gun, maybe take it to range once to get a feel for it, and then lock it away for years and years without touching a firearm again within that timeframe. There are a LOT of those people! They might be shocked by firing a 12g. They might short-stroke a pump action. They might limp-wrist a semi-auto handgun. They might fumble around with a semi-auto reload anyways. They might not instinctually be able to clear a jam from that same gun.
For many of those people who I know in my personal life, I recommend something like a S&W 66 or 686 Plus, 4" barrel. Something full weight with a full length sight picture. Big rubber grips. Take it to the range one time and try it out with .38 special, .38 +p, and some .357.... get the feel. And then load it up with quality .38+p defensive ammo and forget about it until the dreaded day where you might need it. No need for concealment. Less chance of failure. More simplistic confidence. Higher chance of good shot placement. Good chance for follow up shots. Upwards of 7 round capacity in a 686 Plus, which matches what shotguns are capable of. And I've derived that advice from feedback such as what you wrote above, so I appreciate it.
@@nevermore311 Great response! One thing I want to clarify - you said "I recommend [the 38 revolver] for inexperienced shooters"
I do too, but I also recommend it for experienced shooters who don't habituate the range, myself recently included. People who don't practice regularly with their autoloader's safeties, slide locks, etc, are ill advised to pull that gun out of storage and rely on it in a traumatic situation. The number one cause of armed citizens losing a confrontation is "gun not ready to fire".
Also, in 50 years of shooting I have had ONE dud 38 round - I merely pulled the trigger again and situation resolved. A stove pipe can also get you killed.
Lastly, a hammerless pocket rocket can actually be fired from inside a jacket pocket - no slide to tangle and snag.
@@CitrusCountyBeatnik Yep. Agree with all of that. This is what makes revolvers a perfect candidate for a night stand gun. If ever that weapon must be reached for, it's likely in a fast-paced or hectic situation where you may not have full faculties about you. Grab, aim, squeeze. I'm sure it's very different for those who hit the range several times a year with a Glock or an M&P or whatever. Or if you had the time to arm yourself before a threat becomes imminent, but you're likely not going to have time to go to your gun safe and make a careful selection of tactical firearm for the situation. A great many gun owners do not have this level of practice anyways... nor will many prospective gun owners who simply want to own their first (and possibly only) defensive firearm.
Revolver simplicity attracts me to a 642/442
I own Glock 26 and 43. Love them both. But I mostly carry the Taurus 856 UL.
I hear ya. I own equal autos and revolvers, but the peace of mind of a revolver for safety makes me carry a revolver most.
Gun Sam, You can actually find a 38 much more powerful than any 9+p+....Its hard cast though....its the Underwood 38 Special +P 158 Grain Hard Cast Keith.... it s 1250 fps and 555 ft lbs! In one of the reviews a guy used his LCR and it still generated 1,079 fps out of a 1.8 " bb...thats still 408 ft lbs...if that is really true then holy smokes... why not test that ammo and see? I carry the Underwood 357 in my 3" SP101 and sometimes the 125 grain 38 +p (1200 fps XTP bullet) not sure what it gets out of my SP though...its enough Im sure
Sam, Do you have any experience with or knowledge of crimp jump/bullet creep problems using 158 gr +p lead semi-wadcutter ammo (such as the Buffalo Bore) in a short, light J Frame?
Yes. I did notice a tiny amount even fired through my 686. The plus side is being a 158 gr, there's not much chance the bullet would clear the case and jam the cylinder. If it were 110 gr or something, this might happen with the bullets being so shallow in the cases.
I don't think anyone wants to be on the wrong end of either of those calibers. For defense use, I imagine there will be so much subjectivity in terms of preference of firearm that other concerns will be forgotten. Five rounds should be enough, but are you comfortable with only five? Autoloaders hold more, but are you sure there won't be a stove pipe at the worst possible time?
There will be a never ending debate about auto vs revolver until the rail pistol comes out that uses high capacity voltage battery packs, then we will get into how many extra batteries do we all need to carry.
By then, battery capacity will be limited to 10mAh for rail pistols that take a detachable battery.
Nice job! 38+P is what I carry, sometimes 9mm but i really like the 38. Small differences in energy and speed are trivial. The important thing is shot placement, ability to get in a defending position and shoot accurately!
Great video sir and i Totally agree with you that the 38 plus p is a great round and the revolver is still king when it comes to reliability!! 👍
Dont forget 38 special 158 vs 115 grain in 9mm is 50% more weight. Granted its the same math formula to establish both amount of foot pounds. But there is no formula on how much more resistance it takes to slow the heaviet bullit doen compared to the smaller bullit, nor is there a formula to measure how much more tissue the heavier bullit pushes with build up. Creating more volume size im the wound channel, take a car accident as only one example,
Lil car smashes into a telephone pole, and it stops snd smashes up, whereas a 50 percent bigger heavier vehicle hits same pole am shears it off an keeps going.
And lets b serious the only thing the 147 grain 9mm bullit was made for was TO MAKE MAJOR on accuracy shooter competition, it actually slows the 9mm down.
So all in all more capacity in the auto loader is a big advantage, and if u dont hav multiple selections with your pistols. Then a 9mm autoloader would be your better choice., but in my snubnose i carry 6 shotd in 357 msgnums, smith model 66 357 snub an kimber k6s 6 shot 357, owb high ride holster at 4 oclock with a dump pouch. because i like those revolvers CCarry in the winter, Cause i cant remember the last time i been in a gun fight. An when i hav work in very much more than average risky areas, i hav plenty auto loaders to change over to. I just carry a 38+p or 357 mag w a dump pouch, and i dont feel under equipped.
And if you really want a super one shot stop 9mm. Try the 9mm magnum A.K.A.
The 357 sig.
Or use the 40 s&w.
Its also 28 percent bigger in square inches of area . (Do the math, its pi x radius squared.
And the bullit is twice as heavy.
My opinion. Stopping power 9mm. Then 38+p is better. Then 357sig. Better, them 357 magnum.
And they make 357 mag specifically for shub nose pistols
Thanks for the vlog. I always wanted to know how they compared. With ammo crisis I chose the SP101 in 9mm. Only because of the cost in ammo. I need to become proficient by shooting often. Cost became a serious issue. thanks for your work.
In my best Arnold Horshack voice "ooo, ooo, ooo, pick me". Mr. Kotter the comparison of the parabellum and the special breaks down to this. The 9mm has the potential for high round count while the .38 has reliability and flexibility.
That sounds like familiar names I have seen on old shows that were made before I was born, I think I know the show but only saw a few episodes when I first got cable lol. I was born in 80
@@GunSam I was in college when you came on the scene. So you missed mount St. Helens altogether. :D
Hand-loaders have been loading 357 loads for 357 pistols in 38 special brass for 70 years.
Lots of good info keep up the great work there sir
Thanks, and thanks for watching!
I have both and your summary of the data is interesting. To me it comes down to how easily I can carry my gun in different situations. Yesterday, I was cutting grass in old baggy khakis and I carried my LCRx in 38+p. If I'm wearing tighter fit pants, I'm probably going with a pocket 9.
38 spec +p 158 gr. lswchp
I'm with you all the way. I carry a Taurus 85 because I'm a revolver guy. And I carry 2 speed loaders.
I'm 6 foot and, today, 138 pounds. I can't conceal much, even wearing a suit in the summer.
Even at 135 pounds I can conceal a Taurus 85 in three different places. I can conceal on my left leg. I can conceal on the small of my back, and I can conceal it in a shoulder holster.
Appreciate your detailed analysis. Just bought a S&w 442 and looking forward to practicing and carrying it. It's my first revolver in the collection but probably not the last.
Thanks for watching. My quick summary is that the .38 special is just as capable as the 9mm with the right ammo.
it's been four years since you had made this comment, how many guns are in your collection now?
hahaha..we tend to get addicted to our firearms. I should hate Sam, because he's made me want more and more of them. hahaha..just joking..
Excellent information 👍
I mainly pocket carry a S&W 637 loaded with snake shot, then two factory 148 gr. wadcutters and two Remington 125 jhp plus p green box from Walmart. The snake shot is for around the house. When going to high populated areas I pocket carry a Kahr cm9 with two spare magazines, 124 HST.
They're close enough that you can tailor your purchase to make yourself happy and you might consider making your decision based on pistol vs. Revolver instead.
If we get down to brass tacks and are realistic with round count needed (which is covered by both pistol and revolver), the only thing left between the two is hard barrier penetration, which the 9mm does better at. In my testing with no hard barriers, there's almost no difference. Both do the same damage and both expand to .55" reliably with the same penetration.
Very good Video! Nice work!
10:50....Yup...in the middle of the night I dont want an autoloader, especially for my wife.
I keep a Ruger SP101 by my bedside loaded with .38 +P's for my wife.
I also keep a speed loader or 2 full of .357 mag for me.
In a home robbery/invasion situation, the revolver goes with me outside the bedroom, but the 20ga. pump stays with my wife.
You want to talk muzzle energy ?
20 ga. #3 buck shot 1,100 fps and 1300 ft lbs...and hard to miss !!
Great information, as always. It's always amazing how any comment about any particular caliber or firearm will inspire angry rants and fire and pitchforks. The numbers are there, as you point out. Either round is going to poke holes in stuff.
(FYI, I just sent you an email.)
I know what you mean. People think that I am saying that the .38 special is the most powerful cartridge in the world, simply for stating the obvious that it is darn near (and in some cases even more) effective than the 9x19. I get accused of being a 38 fan boy who is lying. I'll check out the e-mail.
On principle, I think you're correct. But personally, I'm more likely to carry a lighter .357 load than a hot .38 special. I still think there is more gained from that angle.
Some very good interesting info....I like em both but 9mm is just cheaper....Good stuff...
How is the comparison figured in relation to cylinder gap loss with a revolver? 9mm may have an unfair advantage unless both shot out of a revolver with the same gap tolerance. Just a crazy idea.
Thanks . I had no idea it was that little of an issue.
+mikunan If you compare actual true ballistic barrel length (measured muzzle to firing pin), there is very little actual velocity difference. I've chronoed the same ammo from a 4" Springfield XD 9mm (4" actual ballistic barrel length) and a 2" barrel Charter Arms Pitbull 9mm revolver (3.8" actual ballistic barrel length) and found that the Pitbull was barely 10 fps slower, even with a slightly shorter ballistic barrel length. Have to remember that Auto's also lose velocity due to the parasitic velocity loss of slide cycling. So in effect, the slight revolver BC loss is equaled by the auto's slide cycling loss, so that revolver and auto of the same ballistic barrel length generate the same velocity for all practical purposes.
Shouldn't you compare a revolver with a 3" barrel to a semi-auto with a 4" barrel since the amount of barrel being engaged by the projectiles is closer?
Terry Clark Trust me, I have tried to make that argument in the past, but literally everyone bitches about it saying revolver vs auto needs to be 4" vs 4" or 5" vs 5" etc. One example is a video I made about 380 vs 38 spl, 3.5" Bersa vs 1.875" S&W J frame. Almost exact same bullet travel, but I never heard the end of it.
Semi-autos don't have a cylinder gap. Just playing devil's advocate, that would likely be a comeback to the question.
I shoot a 357 mag through a 6.5 inch barrel, but I love shooting 38s. A 38+p through a 5 or 6 inch barrel is gonna put your lights out. Period.
I've used a gun in self defense situation and sure enough I only fired 3 shots from my 13 round gun. My new cc is a 6 shot 38spl+p. I know I can rely on it
One of my most recent videos I do 3 shots, 3 yards 3 seconds, as I went from statistical data. Some people can't accept this is the real world, but to me the first six being the only 6 being 100% reliable is more important than 12, with the first six being 99% reliable.
My thing is you can shoot your revolver trough clothing and not have jams. If someone gets the drop on you and catches you with your hands in your pockets.
Gun Sam.
I'm with you on the 38 special. Keep on making videos and keep the family safe # 1.....
I do my best. Just took my kid on a bicycle ride and I had to dig out a J-frame belt holster because if I needed the gun, pocket carry wouldn't work well on a bike, or hopping off it fast if needed.
Another G17 carrier! Good to see.
Go Cubs Go!!!!!
I’m an experienced shooter and I love snub nose revolvers. Easy to conceal compared with anything full size. They’re so simple. Draw, aim, squeeze. Exactly what you need in a close up defense situation under pressure. The compact semi autos can have a failure to feed, stove pipes, and I find the mag release and safety more difficult to operate because they’re so small.
I love both rounds and carry daily both rounds SP 101 Ruger 3” in .357Mag or my S&W 642 air weight in .38+P and my Glock 26 or my 19
I’m plenty comfy carrying my Glock with one of my revolvers , I use a pocket holster with the revolver and IWB holster at 4 o’clock position for my Glock . I wish .38 was as cheap as 9mm I’d damn sure shoot more of it! 😜
It's really not that bad in price, and reloading is really easy and will match the cost of 9mm if you can reload. You can also use internet purchases if allowable to get great deals. On Target Sports Usa site there's plenty of 50 round boxes between $13 and $15.
Very few places I'm inclined to go could I imagine needing more than 5rds. Generally I'd try to avoid shooting at all, & especially extended shootouts requiring 14+shots if at all possible. I'm unlikely to be where a 30rd magazine or multiple Hi cap pistol magazines would be necessary on "the street"....although I've got pistols with hi cap magazines if I felt it might be wiser to carry one where I was going.
I know what you mean. There's a few cities near me I feel I might need a hi capacity 9, but that's not because 5 isn't enough, it's because in a stressful situation where rounds might need fired, I feel I light miss some of the ones I need to land.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ In my area that might include Detroit Mich, Toledo or Cleveland Ohio....none of which I'd recommend a lone person walking or driving around in after dark.
Many 9mm pistols which can shoot +P have a disclaimer in the manual that it may "prematurely wear" the firearm. When I am shooting .38 Special +P out of my .357 Mag I can be fairly sure the hot .38 load isn't stressing the gun much.
9mm just cheaper. Carry both, depending on where I'm going. Had a friend drop an intruder in his house with 2 38s in the chest. That's proof they are good enough.
For me it actually costs less to shoot the .38 special because I hand load. I pretty much have never lost a .38 special brass case, I always lose them for the 9mm(and bullets/primers/powder are same cost for both) and I can make .38 special for about 8 bucks per 50.
One would have to consider the shape of the bullet. The revolver and shoot any shape of bullet many are more effective in tissue. The semi auto has to have a shape that will feed from the magazine into the chamber. So there is some loss of effectiveness.
They both will get the job done.
If need be, I can shoot a .38 from inside a jacket pocket without worrying about followup shot "mishaps". In my view a semiauto will need to be outside&unconfined to do its best work. It's incumbent upon me to adapt to what I have with me at the time, while hoping that time never comes.
I tested this before. It's kind of cool, when you fire the first shot if the muzzle has tension on the fabric it will blow a huge hole through and then the whole muzzle will clear the material and keep firing. I also did it with a pocket .380 and the second shot would always fail, the brass would always stovepipe while in a pocket.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ I had never tried it but expected ejection&cycling would be a potential problem for semi autos in a pocket.
If you're talking about self defense, then you might ask yourself how much energy does it take to get through a human skull or a chest? And I do believe even the FBI 38 spl. can do that. So then you might ask how much velocity is needed to expand a hollow point? And I've seen that the .308 won't do it, the .38 spl. will but not consistently, but the +P and the 9mm will. For me I think they both are adequate, and more than adequate is not only not necessary, but can endanger people downrange.
Based on a lot of stuff I have shot while out in the woods, various objects, wood, metal, water jugs- I feel like with a .38 special bullet, 225 ft lbs is the minimum to be effective.
@@GunSam WW1 was begun with the murders of Arhduke Ferdinand of Austria and his wife, known as "the shot heard around the world". THat was a .380 Abe Lincoln was killed by a little black powder deringer, and something like 600,000 Americans died from "slow" black powder rounds . Ronald Readan almost died from a .22
Arguing calibers for self defense is like arguing which car to get run over by at full speed. Prius v F150. Either way you’re not gonna make it
I love both
Good stuff!
Shot placement wins out over caliber evert time!!
In the eighties law enforcement shied away from 9 millimeter due to over penetration. Bullet technology changes, but from reviewing ballistic gel testing, I still see penetration past the 12 inch standard. The other thing is bullet size and diameter. There was a study posted on the Buckeye Firearms website www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power that had some interesting data on stopping power. There were also some anomalies that may have been skewed due to some calibers being under-represented.
But the thing that fascinated me the most was that .38 took an average of 1.87 shots to stop an attacker whereas 9 millimeter took 2.45 shots to incapacitate. Personally I believe a larger bullet had more to do with that, but it could also be rate of fire. You shoot a 9 millimeter faster and you may be cranking out more rounds than necessary. Anyway, you can take what you will from various ballistic tests on handguns, but this report leads me to believe accuracy is the ultimate factor.
Basically it comes down to what you are comfortable with and what you can hit the target with. As a former police officer who saw the transition from revolver to semi-auto I was happy to go to a high capacity semi-auto, but as a citizen defender in this stage of my life, I don't have a problem carrying a five or six shot .38 revolver.
That's very interesting. When I read the numbers there is a steady decline backwards- from 9mm to 38 special, to .380 to .32 to .22 as far as shots fired until incapacitation. If I had to make a theory as to why, it seems to me that the rounds with the least amount of recoil use less shots due to better follow up shots. With higher recoiling rounds, I could see how some of that equation would have to include shootings that took, 6-7-8 shots to cause incapacitation, and maybe shot 2-3-4 etc were all over the place and not vital hits, as where those low recoil cartridges took less because the time the muzzle is back on target for accurate vital shot 2 or 3 is faster.
The best 38 special I have found for self defense is the 200 grain lead round nose . It's not fast but it hits hard and usually makes a keyhole.
It’s not fast:😂 it would outrun me
@@CM-bj8hr
Okay so it's fast enough.
my cost for 38 is 13 for 50 but thats with xtp can get cheaper
Is that for hand loads? I used to use the XTP bullet for hand loads and at $20 a box/100 125 gr along with other costs this would also bring my cost to about that $13/50 range. As of lately I been using Speer bullets, and even the 158 gr Speer JHP is only $13.50/100, so my cost per box is closer to $10 now. Also, I will use TMJ in the Speer 125 for $12.50/100, brining me down to $9.50/100. If you haven't tried Speer bullets yet, I highly recommend that you check them out. Speer's website also has a great free resource for load data for their bullets. www.speer-ammo.com/reloading/handgun
I carry .38 Special +P. I feel more comfortable with +P, I just think +P hits a little harder and moves a little faster. In a life or death situation, if an attacker is hopped up on whatever or very determined, I want the added punch and velocity of +P. Two .38 +P to the chest should stop someone pretty good.
High capacity 9’s the size of .380’s are out from SIG and now Springfield’s Wildcat. That’s changing the whole 9mm game once again for serious shooters.
I haven't seen those yet. The only 9mm I know of and have that's in the .380's size range is the Diamondback DB9.
+Gun_Sam_Revolver Aficionado Thank you for all your efforts educating folks on the indispensable 38 Special. For anyone interested in concealed carry, take this advice to the bank: you WILL end up with a snub nosed 38 revolver. As you carry your chosen main weapon, 9/40/45 Auto or 38/357/44/45 revolver, you will discover situations, days and clothing choices that will not allow you to carry that main weapon. You will then acquire a 38 snub-nose and rapidly discover just what an indispensible, ultra reliable, accurate, deadly little powerhouse the old 38 Special is in a snub nose revolver. As you gain skill with practice, your confidence in, and respect for that little 5/6-shot 38 will grow exponentially. Soon it is the one gun you will not leave home without. With proper ammo, the 38 is as good as anything, and often actually much better than JHP ammo from 9/40/45 Autos, because the revolver, having no feeding issues, can fire any bullet shape or composition with certain reliability. Including extremely deadly, effective ammo like full wadcutters and lead hollow points. So ammo selection is critical to the little 38 revolver you WILL acquire. And that is why GOOD YT channels like Gun_Sam_Revolver Aficionado are so important. You the shooter can see first hand what ammo works and what ammo doesn't for reliable self-defense. Thanks again Gun_Sam_Revolver Aficionado!
Thanks for all of that! Means a lot to me. I was just shooting some wadcutters yesterday. They only gave me sub 700 fps with 150 ft lbs, but compared to a .380 90 grain bullet, that 148 gr soup can going through the air did some wicked cutting damage to some 2x4's!
@@GunSam You are very welcome. Thank you for the excellent practical advice on carrying revolvers; I've CCW'ed Autos & Revolvers for years, but have picked up incredibly valuable tips from you on carrying snub-nosed 38's and in ammo choices. Check out the Buffalo Bore "Anti-Personnel" 38 Special. Standard pressure, 150 gr Full wadcutter at an honest 850+ fps from a 2" revolver. WICKED close range stopper as WC's always work the same in terminal ballistics, regardless of clothing etc. Would be easy to duplicate in a handload using the Lee TL358-148-WC mold, if you cast your own. Always look forward to your videos. You are the 38 "Guru" IMO, and both you and Paul Harrell give the best, unbiased & most realistic, practical advice for CCW of any gun channel available on the internet. Best wishes and superb work.
Wouldn't your agree that "energy" is only the top critera if you are an outdoorsman (protecting yourself from bears etc) or a soldier needing penetration of barriers!? Every other use only requires enough fpe to expand the projectile and produce sufficient penetration ( maybe 250 fpe minimum?). A +P .38 is ballistically sufficient for any normal defensive use, including police use (but revolvers are pretty much outdated for that purpose, only the .357 magnum cartridge makes revolvers viable for specialty LE use). Many standard pressure .38SPL loads are sufficient too!
I put three different loads in an online calculator that give Taylor KO value. Which probably is a suitable unit for a load used against 'hard headed bears' and barriers, with a projectile that does not expand.
Underwood 147gr +P+ FMJ 1175fps 450fpe
Underwood 158gr Hardcast Keith +P 1250fps 548fpe (Underwood states 555fpe)
Underwood 180 FMJ .40 S&W 1100fps 483fpe
The .38 load give TKO value of 10
The 9x19mm '' '' '' '' 8
The .40 S&W '' '' '' '' 11
The 9mm is a +P+, and only users that do not pay for their own guns like those. But this .38 load is probably very hot too! I would say the .40S&W is the best choice objectively, considering ammo capacity and durability of plastic guns. But a .38SPL +P is not a bad choice for some civilian uses. The 9mm is the best military round.
The Wikipedia article on 9x19 states: "The 9mm cartridge is ballistically superior to the .38 Special revolver cartridge".
Am I missing something?
Very much like how you have the bigger picture in mind and don't just build a case on singular results.
Again, as with most similar comparisons, the platform is hard too keep out of the equation, although there are 9mm revolvers and prolly/maybe some .38spl semi's too.
If you wanted to make this a pure caliber comparison video though, you'd have to admit that the .38spl had a significant barrel length advantage, because in semi's, the chamber is part of the barrel. The shorter the barrel, the bigger the advantage to the revolver.
0" barrel=>
revolver: roughly 0.4" of barrel/cylinder in front of the casing vs.
semi: casing not even fully contained / bullet sticking out more than an inch from the muzzle
LC9 vs 1.875 plus cylinder=>
3.12" > (1.6+1.875 =) 3.475"
Test data for buffalo bore => basically 5.6" revolver vs a 4" semi, and the semi still comes out on top energywise.
Of course a long revolver barrel might be easier to conceal/carry than the bulky slide of a long slide pistol, putting both into the same category of firearms, but speaking strictly caliberwise,
the difference between 9mm vs .38spl is significantly bigger than that of the .45acp vs 9mm. (energywise, that is.)
I think it's difficult to get the exact same amount of barrel travel, plus 5% of the potential velocity is lost through the cylinder gap. Also if we went to rifle length barrels we would see similar energy between 9mm and .38+P due to the fact that the .38+P uses about identical powder in the case as a 9mm, but with the very low pressure of the .38+P, it needs a longer barrel to get the powder burn it needs.
All that being said, police departments carried a 4" .38 special revolver for many decades and when the switch was made to autos, in addition to the 4.5" bbl G17 being widely used by police, the G19 4" is also an option as a duty weapon for many police officers. So a 4" auto and 4" revolver are pretty fair to compare as normal apples to apples hip guns, as the G19 is a slightly compact duty gun and after the .357 magnum became a police revolver, the model 10 .38 spl 4" also became sort of a compact in comparison duty gun.
There is some insignificant amount of potential velocity lost due to the cycling of the slide, too.
Jep, I bet the case capacity on the .38 could be used to an advantage with long barrels.
True, comparing the typical guns / types of firearm for certain applications is the smart way.
I wonder what a 9mm revolver could do :)
From what I have researched, standard pressure 9mm in a snub nose revolver is just a tad more powerful than .38 special+P, I think somewhere around a 25 ft lb energy advantage. I have not researched longer barrel revolvers between the two calibers, but I would imagine that in that case the difference would be a tad greater putting the 9mm a bit above the .38 special+P, in standard SAAMI ammo anyways.
Good video, good info. For me, having an SP101 in .357 Mag loaded with .38 Special +P and a S&W 442 loaded with .38 Special +P for personal EDC and a Ruger Security Six with 4” barrel loaded with .357 Mag as a home defense, I feel well protected. I train regularly with these guns both dry fire with snap caps and live rounds at the range. LEOs relied on .38 Special/.357Mag for years and only switched to semi-autos for the additional firepower they need today. I wouldn’t want to get shot with any .38 Special...
Detroit Tigers!!!
Buffalo Bore's nuts! I like to stay in SAMMI specifications. I'll go 9mm. The .38spl has seen it's day and now it's gone. The 9mm is somewhat more effective, more prevalent, and less expensive.
I guess it's about perspective. Overall, for me it's less expensive to shoot .38 special than 9mm because I reload. Both will cost me the same to reload but I rarely can keep all my auto brass, and reloaded of either are a couple dollars cheaper than factory 9mm. The thing about the .38 special is that the bullets are on average heavier which has it's place.
True, heaver projectiles do perform better, overall. Best of luck!
Cubs?! go Yankees!!! LOL!!!
Actually, i'm such a starving artist full time dad that half my wardrobe is clothes that friends were throwing out :)
Good for you! God bless your Family! Keep making those interesting Videos!
Thanks. Thanks for watching.
And the winner is the Ruger LCR 9x19mm Five-Shot Pocket Revolver. Revolver reliability in 9MM.
With the short overall length of the 9x19mm cartridge versus the longer length of the cylinder, it is hard to imagine inertial pulling resulting in blocking the rotation of the cylinder. In order to reach that far, a lightweight 9mm projectile would be close to being removed from the cartridge case.
I have checked out some of the numbers in those, and if I remember right, the 9x19 in a snubby is pretty close ballistically to the energy of a 9x19 in a sub compact auto like the LC9. I could see myself using one, and as a hand loader it would be even better because I could take all my factory ammo and run it through my taper crimp die to get a nice tight bullet hold to prevent bullet creep out.
After watching the H.R.Funk video on the S&W 9MM revolver and asking him some questions, I think it is the way to go in a snubby. Reloads can be pretty fast. Mas Ayoob says he does not feel increased recoil over a .38 Special +P.
I think they are both pretty similar. I prefer the old school .38 special because loading while target practice is nice with the rim, or hand loading with the shell plate is very easy for the same reason (not to mention holding a 9x19 case to get in the press is difficult). If I didn't hand load and if I liked the idea of moon clips, I could go either way because they are both pretty similar.
Since I don't reload and I have gotten over my uncertainty about moon clips, I like the idea. My firearm is a Ruger LC9 so I would be shooting 9x19 in both handguns. I think the moon clips could make the reload of a revolver fast enough to consider it as a good weapon to shoot and reload without going to the New York reload.
Why don't we boil this down and save some bandwidth at the same time because going through the entire song and dance again really isn't necessary. Here's the transcript of the abridged version of the video that makes the point in 20 seconds. Ready? And, action!
"I love the .38 Special. Numerically 9mm. is vastly superior and in every test shows a demonstrably greater effectiveness. However, I prefer .38 Special because I like to carry .38 snub nose revolvers and I think my 5 shots of .38 Special will be enough to get done what I need to get done. Thanks for watching and have a great day!"