Shellac and How to Mix it for use as a Finish and a Stock Solution.
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
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See how easy it is to mix Shellac. Shellac flakes has been used as a timber finish since early Egyptian times. Follow along with Steve Hay as he shares with you the secrets of making your own Shellac Polish.
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I've had several emails pointing out my calculations don't workout right. Here I will try to explain. Courtesy of Fine Woodworking Magazine.
www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/article/mixing-shellac.aspx
The numbers are correct, however, and here's why: The mathematics for shellac dilution do not follow a general ratio formula because you are working with the weight of a substance in a volume. For example, say you want to take a 2-lb. cut down to a 1-lb. cut. It would seem logical that it would be a one-to-one reduction of shellac to alcohol, but it's not. When you dissolve 2 lb. of shellac in 1 gal. of alcohol, you displace the original volume by 20 percent, thus giving you 1.2 gal. total in which 2 lb. of shellac are dissolved. So a 1-gal. volume of a 2-lb. cut shellac contains only 1.66 lb. of shellac. Three lb. in alcohol gives roughly 1.3 gal; 4 lb., 1.4 gal, and so on.
Read more: www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/article/mixing-shellac.aspx#ixzz3txuBpYzT
Cheers Steve
Metric's easier to measure if you use 100ml for ethanol as a base, which is a nice easy number. With that a 1lbs cut = 12g shellac. 2lbs = 24g, 3lbs = 36g. Easy ratios to remember and double or quadruple.
+1873Winchester Thanks for that, you might get me metricated yet.lol Cheers Steve
The cut is the solvent right so one pound of alcohol I'm gettin a dresser in a week and let's say I use a 1 pound of shellac and x amount of alcohol how much alocohol would I need
What do you mean by g grams ?
+Rory McCabe For a 1 pound cut you would need 1 gallon of DAA. Initially I make a stock solution then cut it into a 4 pound mix and break it down even further when using it. Cheers Steve
Hi there, thanks great vid, i followed your exact methods, but for some reason my mixture came out very merky (milky), . i used 99% denatured alcohol, even when i use Spirits it come merky.UPDATE: i started shaking it alot and it seems to be clearing up!!
Hi Nizaam, It is cloudy unless you are using De-waxed shellac. Once it has been strained and diluted it will appear to dry clear but will be murky in the container you are storing it in. Cheers Steve
If the gallon is Imperial, it's gonna be 1:10 for a 1 pound solution.
If the gallon is American, it's gonna be 0.834:10 for the same solution.
Pretty sure there is some wiggle-room in there with such a loose guideline.
I have some Briwax Shellac Sealer, I bought it about 12 months ago when I first started woodworking. Please can you tell me if this is just an (expensive) commercial version of the same thing? Up to now I’ve mainly been using BLO with my own wax finish and I know I need to spread my wings more. You’ve already converted me to hide glue so why not my own shellac finish?
Out of curiosity what colour is meths in Australia? It’s very difficult to get true denatured alcohol in the U.K., in the late 60s early 70s it all had to have another ingredient added that made meths purple. I remember my father telling me at the time it was to stop the "down and outs" drinking it as the added extra made it unpalatable. Paul Sellars does use it with this colouring ingredient in it, and it doesn’t seem to affect the colour of the shellac. I was wondering if you had had any experience of "purple" meths?
Thank you very much for another wonderful inspiring video.
'Hi Mark. We fortunately have clear DAA here. I have seen purple coloured Meths but don't use it myself so cannot comment if it changes the colour of the finish. I would say not but not 100% sure when it comes to dewaxed blond. But if Paul Sellars uses it I would say that's a good indication it's OK. Never heard of, nor used, Briwax Shellac Sealer. Cheers Steve
Woodworking Masterclass Thanks Steve, for such a comprehensive answer.
My wife HATES when i steal her kitchen scales. I still do it though :)
Hi Aaron, yeah at least we get noticed then. lol Cheers Steve
You know, I just put a swig of alcohol into an old yogurt thingy, sprinkle some flakes into it, maybe sprinkle some more and put a bit of foil over it - done. *shrug* I don't understand why to measure at all. If I feel that it's too thick I just add another swig of of alcohol.
Meridian Herschel If that works for you that's fantastic, I like to measure only so I can gauge what size cut i'm using when it comes to french polishing. But, really it's all about what works for the individual. Thanks for the comment Cheers Steve.
Woodworking Masterclass True actually.
AHA.. I think I won't bother with this... Ill leave my table in it's natural state
or maybe I will......
@@herbertvonsauerkrautunterh2513 There are always choice. Whichever you choose is the right one for that moment. Cheers Steve
Hello, could you tell me how much alcohol did you pour at 5:10 for shellac dissolve? Another question, why it is necessary to break the stock again before using it? Can I use that mixture of 4to1 stock for finishing ?
Just a suggestion, instead of pouring metho over flakes just put flakes into stocking and dangle it in metho like a teabag. Saves having to strain it. All the rubbish stays in stocking and just throw stocking out when finished.
Great Idea, Michael. Thanks I'll give it a go. Cheers Steve
Easy to see why the Metric system is used almost universally used. Not all imperial measurements are the same, depends on the country. USA is different to the UK for example.
Hi Shevill, How true, but still nice to know both. Thanks for the comment. Cheers Steve
Wonderful video! Thank you very much for posting it!
You're welcome, happy to know you enjoyed it. Thanks for the feddback. Cheers Steve
Hi Steve,
I live in Gympie Qld and I have searched high and low to try and find a supplier for DAA but with no luck.
The local chemical supplier (mainly pool chemicals but some cleaning) said I have to have a licence to buy it but couldn't tell me where to buy it. Who do you get your DAA from?
Cheers Mark
Hi Mark, I generally get 60 liters at a time and go in with a mate who buys it in 44's somewhere in NSW. Drop me an email and I'll see if I can get more info for you. www.woodworkingmasterclass.com.au Cheers Steve
The shellac to cat ratio escapes me.
Hi Robert, It's a ratio mix whatever cut you want add that to :8 So a 3lb cut is 3:8 and a 2 pound 2:8 8 being 8 pints. Reduce the amount of mixed shellac you want but always keep the same ratio. 1 pint of a 3 pound mix would be an 1/8th of a pound or 8oz of shellac flakes to 1 Pint of Spirit. Times the 8oz by 8 = 48oz or 3lb. Times the 1 pint by 8 = 8 pints or 1 gal so the ration is still a 3lb mix. 3 lb to 1 gal. Hope that helps a bit. Cheers Steve
I would appreciate your help on the following problem. I used some old flakes and tried to dissolve them in alcohol to make a 1lb cut shellac. The result was not so good as it had a gummy residue. I tried three different types of alcohol, 93% with a bluish color in it (used for burners), 96% pure ethyl alcohol( denatured), 99% isopropyl alcohol but the result was the same for all. I also tried grinding the flakes beforehand and the gummy solution afterwards but I never got a crystal clear solution. I had to pass it through a sieve ending up throwing a lot of the residue. Is it because the flakes are old or any problem with the alcohol? Do the flakes expire?
Yes flakes do get old and will not work. The time varies from stock to stock. A tell tale sign for some is that they develop a greenish tinge to the flakes in the sunlight. (but not all the time) My advice it throw them away and get some fresh flakes. I use DDA 99% if it does not dissolve the shellac then it the shellac at fault not the alcohol. Using new flakes you should be fine. Cheers Steve
Thanks a lot Steve for your help. I will do so...cheers
California just banned denatured alcohol. what else can I use?
Use isopropílic alcool
II f you cannot find denaturated alcohol at your place, I read that isopropyl alcohol used for cleaning electronic components and found in stores for electronic components is a very good solution. It is quite more expensive but you don't need a large amount.
I have no idea as I have never used it but try some and see. Cheers Steve
Woodworking Masterclass I would love to hear about it if you do try. I can’t find any information on using isopropyl in shellac. I have access to 99% pure and was wondering what the differences might be, either in looks or function.
I'm confused, which doesn't take much...I thought that by measuring out the original 4oz. and dissolving that in 1/2 pint of DAA was the cut? Bu, bu, but then you went and cut it again after letting it sit for 24 hours?
I've hidden all sharp objects and eating meals by hand until you explain the reason for the second cut?
If you don't I'll jump...off my couch.
+maine932 Now we can't have that and seeing i'm just about to go to bed. I could not sleep without answering you. The first is a 4 pound cut, which is generally called stock and very thick and not that practical to use. After it has dissolved, 1 or 2 days, it that can be decanted and broken down even further to a more desirable liquid form that can then be used for varnish or in the French Polishing process. A common cut for french polish in the beginning is a 2 pound cut, which requires the stock be broken down by using 3X1/4 parts alcohol and 1 part stock. For a thicker 3 pound cut 1/4 part alcohol to 1 part stock is used. A 1 pound cut is made with 4 parts Alcohol to 2 parts stock. Not sure if that clears it or clouds it for you. But anyway go get the sharp objects, have a good feed of Bacon and eggs and slowly get up from the couch without hurting yourself. Cheers Steve lol.
Sir,
Actually, that does clear this matter a bit, although I did have to re-read it a few times. I have written this down in a journal using my finest crayons, while my wish is a high gloss finish on an ash table top I plan on making this winter. I am new to the hobby of woodworking, and you have been a great help. I thank you for your time and speedy response.
Yes, you have called me back from the ledge, and in your honor I shall try mixing my own "spirits!" One for the table, and a second mixture for me...slightly different, but sure to create it's own masterpiece.
Bob.
+maine932 ...and that's why I slept the sleep of the just. Word of caution don't get the spirits mixed up, I did once. Job looked awful and I can't remember the next 3 days! Cheers Steve
Just starting to get in two hand woodworking that said you have one of the best wood working channel out there you are a great teacher could you consider a dovetail or joint make bid keep up the good work I will be watching
It's on the list of videos to make. i'll let you know when it's uploaded in the meantime I cover some dovetail cutting on this video. ua-cam.com/video/5gsHBQUV_Io/v-deo.html more can be found on our website. wwwwoodworkingmasterclass.com.au and our UA-cam Channel ua-cam.com/channels/amxdpLgM4yPF5fgxzG2y5g.html
Cheers Steve
hello, if i were to stain douglas fir to a walnut brown, which shellac would be best to use, blonde or garnet? thank you
Hi Steve, over a walnut stain I would use Golden or normal shellac flakes. Garnet is a Red colour. But of the 2 you suggested Blonde would be the best for that colour. Test some on another piece of timber first as it may rip out the stain beneath. If that happens apply a thin coat of Raw linseed oil over the stain and let it stand for a couple of hours before applying the shellac. Cheers Steve
@@Woodworkingmasterclass great! thanks. got it!
@@steveroufas1938 If you get stuck drop me a message. Cheers Steve
Hello Steve. Thanks for the video. My orange flake shellac is not dissolving as it should in metho. It is looking like cornflakes. The ratio of metho doesn't seem to matter it just won't dissolve. Still way too thick to strain either. Any ideas?
Try new metho. If still no good and the shellac has clumped up. Place a quantity of in a in bag and smash up with a hammer almost to a power then try again. If neither of those work buy some new shellac. Cheers Steve
@@Woodworkingmasterclass Thank you Steve I will give it a go.
Hi Steve, I am hearing different things about wax and dewaxed shellac and thought I should seek out more expert advice from you. Some have indicated that the dewaxed version is better given there is a lesser chance of it affecting or badly interacting with other finishes that can go on top - such as stains (oil, water based), and urethanes, lacquers etc. Others say, they have got away with it (got away with using a waxed shellac and other top coats with no apparent obvious problem - at least, yet). Some major toolshop employees and website sellers of shellac surprisingly had no idea (despite selling the product - go figure?). I am leaning towards dewaxed - but would like your opinion, if possible. Best regards.
Hi Peter, De-waxed is the way to go for a sanding sealer or under-finish. Normal Shellac will work OK under an enamel or oil finish but will act as a barrier under acrylic. The other nice thing with de-waxed is that it will not alter the colour of the timber beneath is as it is clear and pigment free. Great for lighter coloured wood. Downside is it does have a shelf life which is considerably shorter than other shellacs. Having said that it's still a good time at least a year. My preference in most cases is dewaxed tat hard to French polish with, yet still very attainable. Hope that sheds some light in it for you. Cheers Steve
Thank you for your answer. Apologies, could you just clarify:
When you refer to, de-waxed is the way to go….”Under finish” did you mean under Polyurethanes/varnishes/lacquers etc?
And the words, “Normal shellac will work OK under an oil finish”, were you referring to oil based stains or also some other things?
@@peterg902 Dewaxed will go under almost anything and be fine. I would not stain over any shellac, stain first then add shellac. and yes "Normal" golden shellac go with oil based finished but again I would not put a stain OVER it add stain then shellac. I know this from personal experience just finished a table with normal shellac and sprayed acrylic over the top when I went to polish it the acrylic came away like a sheet of cling film. Ahh experience the great teacher :) Cheers Steve
Thanks. However, It is likely that many use a 1 pound cut or so of shellac to prevent stain blotching (under stain).
@@peterg902 I would't recommend staining over the shellac. But stain first then shellac. Even that can cause problems with removing the stain as the shellac is applied. Cheers Steve
Sir what is the solvent mixed to shellac and can I use shellac used for automobiles.
The solvent used is DENATURED ABSOLUTE alcohol. Wouldn't recommend t for auto application as it is heat sensitive. Cheers Steve
@@Woodworkingmasterclass Hi Steve. I can find industrial methylated spirits. This is the same as stuff your using isn't it? Thanks
@@Riffme81 Not 100% sure but fairly sure its the same stuff. Cheers Steve
Hi Steve,
Can a gloss nitro cellulose spray or polyurethane gloss spray be put on top of a shellac finish, or can a gloss finish be achieved with shellac? Thanks
No and Yes. You can spray over shellac but it has to be 'De-Waxed Blonde' Shellac. It will not stick to any other type of shellac as they all contain wax. French polish will give a very high clear gloss finish which is achieved by using shellac and applying it onto the job via a Polishing Rubber. Cheers Steve
Woodworking Masterclass
Thanks Steve. Understood 👍
I found that one out the hard way after spraying a set of side tables the finish just literally slid off. Cheers Steve
I have just completed a table for the kids at church hand I bought some shellac to coat it. My question is where do you get DAA (I have never heard of it) and why do you make a four pound cut if you only want a smaller amount. The jar I bought at Bunnings is only a small jar so I am not able to put that amount into my mix.
+Gordon Clark Regarding DAA (Denatured Absolute Alcohol) where about are you? Are you in Brisbane? For the measurements it's incremental. 4lb to 1 Gal. 2lb to 4Pints, 1lb to 2pt. 4oz to 1/2 pint and so on or the metric equivalents. I make up a stock solution of 4lb 1. For convenience. 2. it allows me more options than french polishing. Cheers Steve
+Woodworking Masterclass Thank you for the reply. I am in Melbourne and the shellac I bought is Feast Watson Mastertouch in a 250gm container. To add to my confusion, the instructions says for thinning and clean up use, methylated spirits without actually mentioning mixing. I looked at Woodwork Forum and noticed that a member says to make sure you use 100% metho. Looking at my metho bottle from Bunnings it doesn't mention what type of metho and therefore I suspect it isn't pure. I looked at the Carbetec site (where I get a lot of my tools) and see that they have 100% metho so I intend to go tomorrow and buy some. To add further to my confusion, watching American tube sites they talk about using denatured alcohol and you say to use DAA (?) so I don't know if I can use one of those or stick to the instructions about metho. The shellac is de waxed although it does't say on the container and again this information was gleaned from the writer in the Woodwork Forum. Sorry to be long winded but maybe any comments from you will help others understand this product.
+Gordon Clark I would be surprised if it was de-waxed as i'm sure the one Bunnings stock is just straight Shellac, what they call 'golden flake'. You can use just plain old metho if that's all you can get. If you are brushing it on you won't really notice the difference but when polishing with a rubber (French Polishing) it can get a bit tacky and does not go of as quick as DAA. Carbatec used to sell it for around $20.00 a litre. If you were closer I'd let you have some for a lot less but unfortunately It can't be posted. Really easay way top mix it if you don't want to measure. Put it in a jar just cover the flake you have in the jar with metho give it a shake whenever you are passing by should dissolve in 1-2 days. Grab an old scotch bottle fill it one third with the stock and top up the other 2/3's with metho and you're in business. Cheers Steve
+Woodworking Masterclass Thanks Steve. I appreciate all the advice. I will see how it goes.
+Gordon Clark Looking forward to seeing the results. Cheers Steve
Cheers mate
Hi Steve, thanks for your video. I mixed dewaxed-blonde shellac flakes as per your instructions using pure meth but noticed, even after about 48 hours, jelly bits settling on the bottom of the jar. People have suggested more or less often agitating the mixture, stirring the mixture, and even that the flakes are oxidized (or are no good etc). When would you say the flakes are no good-is it when there is too much sediment or takes too long to dissolve? Is there generally always sediment in the bottom of the jar? Much appreciate your time.
Sorry should have mentioned agitate often. I've heard many symptoms that suggest flakes are out of date. But have only had problems with some solutions that have been mixed and not used over a long period of time. Best way to tell is use some and if it will not dry hard the game is over. By the way the term for Shellac that won't harden is called "Blocked" So if you have some shellac that's blocked either throw it away or try re-melting with some fresh DAA. Cheers Steve
Ok thanks, but in the end I had to stir a few times with a stick, as it remained a gooey blob stuck to the bottom of the jar (with agitating doing very little, even over 48 hours).
Other than that you can always add more DAA. If it's to weak leave it open over night and it will evaporate quite a bit. Cheers Steve
thanks - obviously, not too much to change the ratio.
No, it's not that critical. Cheers Steve
Brilliant tutorial mate.
Big thumbs up.
Thanks, pleased you enjoyed it. Cheers Steve
How long will the 4lb cut keep?
There are as many answers to that as there are woodworkers Peter. But from my own experience a long time. I have uses stock that I had mixed 2 years before and have used some 1lb cut that I have had for even longer. The way to tell when Shellac is pasted its usefulness is when you use some and it is still sticky a day later. Mix up a new batch and on you go. That by the way is why I only mix small quantities at a time. De-waxed Blond Shellac is a different story and does have a use by date which is generally 12 months from mixing.
US or Imperial Gallon?
+Steve Worgan Imperial i'm guessing. Cheers Steve
At minute 2:40, where you say the quantity, what do you say?
Sorry, must be that darn Aussie accent but I believe what I said was 113 grams by 284 mils. I still reckon is sounds better as a 4 pound cut. Cheers Steve
Thanks. It's not the accent, but I'm not english.
Zamfir Radu Not a problem, where are you from? I enjoy to seeing where in the world people are watching.
Romania
Zamfir Radu Wow, i'm impressed, thanks for letting me know. All the best with your woodworking.
Stunning work Steve... well done you....👍👌