Izotope RX 11 // Dialog Isolate Compared To Supertone Clear, dxRevive Pro & VoicEx
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- Опубліковано 18 чер 2024
- The big new feature in Izotope RX 11 for podcast editors is the overhauled Dialog Isolate plugin. Listen to how well it compares to Supertone Clear, Accentize dxRevive, and Cedar Audio's VoicEx to decide if upgrading to RX 11 is worth it for you.
Computer Specs for these tests: Mac Studio with M1 Max chip and 64 GB Memory
Izotope RX11: tinyurl.com/IzotopeRX-11
Supertone Clear: tinyurl.com/supertone-clear
Accentize dxRevive Pro: www.accentize.com/dxrevive/
Cedar Audio VoicEx: www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...
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0:00 Intro
0:41 The competitors
1:25 About the comparison
2:11 Clip 1
4:37 Clip 2
7:08 Clip 3
10:36 Recap
10:57 What do you think?
11:13 My opinion
11:36 Watch the sensitivity
12:24 Rendering with Dialog Isolate as a plugin - Навчання та стиль
This is so far the best and most helpful review.
Thank you for this comment. It's always nice to hear that I'm providing value.
amazing video you did what allot of people don't consider when checking out noise reduction plugins
Thanks. I wouldn't have thought about it if I was recording a live demo of Dialog Isolate. Since this was a comparison using pre-recorded clips, it brought this issue to my attention. I would hate to discover this by surprise after upgrading.
You. Are. Spectacular! Thank you!
Thanks, Patrick.
I’ve always disliked that phasey washed out result that RX results with when using the De-Noise module. A huge amount of high-end and consonant detail is lost.
Thanks for the video!! Amazing presentation and accuracy.
Thank you. I feel it's possible to get good results from RX without that phasey, washed out sound, but it takes some finesse. It took me awhile to really dial in my settings and learn how doing multiple passes can make it easier to challenging audio without those types of artifacts. Having said that, I feel these newer plugins allow us to get there faster and with less effort.
Thanks for doing this vid! :)
I figure if I'm going to do testing anyway to determine if the upgrade is worth it for me, I might as well share it with others in hopes it can help you make a more informed decision. I was completely taken by surprise when I started rendering out the clips and knew others needed to be aware of this.
Thanks for updating the video. 👍The processed clips all sound good, but, as someone else here pointed out, the plugins seem to have slightly different efficacies depending on the source input. I have Clear, and I'm happy to stick with that for the moment. Cheers.
Thank you again for your comment on the first video. My initial thought was "what kind of audio do you work with if the raw clips sound fine?", but then I figured I should double check things and sure enough I had rendered all the clips with one of the plugins active...oops. This is why I shouldn't be doing critical work with a migraine.
Each algorithm has strengths and weaknesses, as you said, dependent on the input. In my use, Clear works well in most situations and that's why it's my go-to. VoicEx removes some noises that nothing else will touch like rustling sounds, so I'll turn to that if Clear isn't removing a specific type of sound. dxRevive doesn't get much use unless the audio is garbage since it does a decent job with it's frequency restoration. I'm not a fan of Accentize's noise reduction, but their reverb reduction is good and I'm waiting for them to release a reverb reduction algorithm that doesn't have EQ or noise reduction.
@@jesse.mccune Thanks for that interesting reply. Good luck with your work. 👍
Thanks.
Great comparison, this is very helpful! All of them perform very well. Do you work in RX for dialogue or in another daw with real-time processing?
I'll work in my DAW whenever possible. For podcast editing I will only work in my DAW because clients don't pay enough for me to do manual work in the RX editor. If I'm working on a course or some other project that requires that level of detail, I have no problems diving into the RX editor.
dxRevive Pro does a lot more than the others, so I'd probably run with that and some mouth declicking from RX8 or higher. In terms of reverb reduction, I liked it the most so far, though I'd have to put that thing through its paces for myself as well. I'm often using two offerings from Acon Digital, which they keep updating as well.
My guess is that Izotope fell behind because it was aquired. A shame and not great for whoever is left at Izotope, but now we have way more choices too. Competition brings out the best in folks.
I might go for an upgrade of my RX 8 Advanced to RX 11 Advanced at some poit if I can put its new features to good use, such as VST3 support tor mass processing lots of takes with the Batch Processor. The Dialog Isolate is another good tool in the box, but I already have so many others.
I used Acon Digital's Deverberate 3 for years until I found Clear. I feel Deverberate was the best of the last generation of de-reverb tools, but this new generation does a better job while sounding less processed. I also assume NI's acquisition of Izotope has played a large role in Izotope falling behind and would guess there's been some workforce reductions and other turnover at Izotope. Batch processor is a life saver for many people out there. Since I work on podcasts, I'm never really working with more than 2 or 3 tracks at a time, so moving out of the RX editor has saved me time. If I were editing audiobooks, I would be living in the RX editor for so much.
@@jesse.mccune What is the CPU usage of Clear and dxRevive Pro ? I'm simply curious, and may get another tool for my arsenal at the latest during the next Black Friday sale.
One of the perks of using the Acon stuff was its relatively low CPU usage compared to other solutions for example. I did use that old beta of a what I think may be Supertone Clear's predecessor. That thing barely ran real-time on one of the core of my machine(5950X). Sure hope Clear is a lot better now.
I don't really have a way of measuring, but I haven't run into any issues running them on my Mac Studio. I'm not sure how your computer compares since I'm not in the PC world. I would expect dxRevive Pro to be more CPU intensive since it's doing more than Supertone Clear. I know Supertone had mentioned that Clear was more optimized than Goyo was during the beta test. How much of a difference that makes is unknown to me.
You should’ve included Hush Pro. To me it’s the best option right now if you don’t need the synthesis of Dx Revive.
There are two reason why it's not included here. First, it's not available as an AU or VST; it's only available as an AAX. Second, it's Mac only. This video is a comparison of plugins available to anyone using a DAW. I spoke with Ian Sampson last year about Hush Pro and he hopes to release an AU/VST version, but he has a couple technical challenges with the format he has to solve first.
@@jesse.mccune Fair point! Interested to see what Ian will come up with in the future. The one plugin that I am underwhelmed the most by is the cedar voice ex. I was expecting more from the same people that made DNS One which I still regularly when the noise is manageable.
@michaelanctil4972 I'm hoping he can figure out the challenges to bring Hush to AU/VST. I also hope he can add a preview function to the standalone app. That would make it a lot more useable. That would make it a lot easier to dial in the settings without trial and error.
I agree that VoicEx didn't show well in these examples. There are things it does that others don't. An example is that it removes lav mic rustle. VoicEx does well with noise reduction, but the reverb reduction isn't quite as good. I feel VoicEx does well for cleaning up anything that was recorded fairly well. It struggles on more extreme audio. It difinitely feels like it was trained on good recordings. It doesn't feel like a restoration tool like dxRevive does with its repair capabilities. My issue with dxRevive, and Accentize in general, is that I find their noise reduction to rank towards the bottom of the group. If they could improve their noise reduction algorithms they would be the leader in this space.
First, it's Mac only.... And it needs to be VST
@ramspencer5492 I'd still have thrown it into the comparison even if it were Mac only, but I would call it out as being a Mac only plugin. Hopefully he can port it over to Windows.
RX Standard does A TON more than just the Dialog Isolate tool. If that's all you want, don't get RX. I use the standalone app for Spectral De-noise of passing/momentary noises like vehicles/sirens/phones, Mouth De-click, De-clip to fix distorted client recordings, Phase tool's automatic phase rotation, De-reverb, and most importantly, Loudness Control to deliver my mixes at perfect loudness every time after running automatic Phase rotation. Worth every penny for me over the other options. That said, I have not upgraded to RX 11.
I also do not run any of the RX repair tools in real time in my DAW, since for Logic and Davinci Resolve it also slows playback and rendering way down. It's quicker and more reliable to render the repairs to a copy of the source files, so I open each recording in the standalone app to use these powerful repair tools. I keep them open in RX until I finish an episode so I can undo filters if ever needed (which is rare now that I have my process nailed down).
For podcasters looking for a single plugin that automatically cleans up bad recordings, I'd go with Supertone Clear since it's cheaper and simpler to use, if you're not going to learn how to use all the other powerful options in RX's standalone app.
I agree. RX is a powerhouse tool for those who understand how to use it. Many podcasters and podcast editors find it intimidating. I've moved away from using the RX editor for podcast editing because I save time using plugins and there aren't many podcast clients who have budgets to pay for the time it takes to paint out those passing/momentary sound. If I was editing in Logic it would be a little faster since I could apply Spectral De-noise in the sample editor, but I'm working in Hindenburg and don't have that luxury. Even with the increased render times in the DAW, it's faster than doing my initial clean up/rendering in RX and then importing into Hindenburg. We all have different workflows, goals, and clients.
I created this video so that those who already own RX and own a plugin similar to Dialog Isolate can make an informed decision whether it's worth it to upgrade to the new version. For many podcast editors, Dialog Isolate is the only new feature or update that would be of use to them in this update.
You mention that you have not upgraded to RX11. Why is that?
@@jesse.mccune Pretty much why you said. I wouldn't really use Dialog Isolate in my workflow since I get better results with the individual filters. The higher upgrade price of $299 is not worth it for me at this time since 10 does everything I need on my M1 MacBook Pro.
I do a lot of heavy editing for flow and content, so processor intensive plugins really slow down playback as I start and stop for editing. Podcasters who don't do hardly any editing, probably also won't care about the guest audio quality enough to invest in expensive plugins...
@meonlylouder Thanks for taking the time to respond with your "why".
In a way interesting but at the same time, I can buy the RX Standard (including the Good option) for €170. For the dialogue isolation i found the most affordable option inferior to the RX11. The best (according to the comments) is almost seven times 'my' price. My demands are not that high, I want the dialogue to be understandable without disturbing noise like wind, traffic etc. The prices are so far apart that comparison might be undoable, for differences in budget and use/demands will be more decisive. But I'm glad I saw this video. Thanks you very much.
We all hear things differently and all of these tools will produce good results. Some may be better than others to us who use these tools daily, but all that matters is what the audience thinks. If you're working on a big budget project like a tv show or movie, you'll have the means to use the best tools where the expectation is high quality. For those who are working with podcasts, UA-cam, and social media videos, any of these will get the job done. Those audiences aren't looking for studio quality audio. They are more forgiving and our goal is to deliver audio that won't make them press the stop button.
I think I preferred a different Denoiser for each clip:
(Though Part of that could be due to the amount of reduction being applied)
Clip 1 - DX Isolate Best
Clip 2 - dxRevive or VoiceEx
Clip 3 - VoiceEx
That’s why I have many in my tool box.
Thanks for putting this together! What are the hardware specs of your machine? I wonder if that plays in to it - I have a couple of PC's with RTX4090's and a Mac Studio with an M2 Ultra to test on. I can upgrade to RX11 Advanced for just $280, so I'm thinking it might be worth it.
I'm on an M1 Max Mac Studio. If my computer handles it like this, I can only imagine what it would be like for someone on an older or less powerful machine.
@@jesse.mccune oh wow, yeah that is not efficient at all.
@laez No, it's not very efficient at all. I thought I had mentioned my computer specs in the video, but realize that was in the previous RX 11 video.
Any thoughts on compariing with Waves Clarity Vx ?
Thank you very much for this video. You definitely have the best audio comparisons on UA-cam. VoiceEx is the clear winner, but it is too expensive, unfortunately. I wish you were making the comparison with extreme examples, as this examples are very friendly for the algorithms and thus do not really show the algorithm's capabilities, for example, dialogue in traffic outside with car horns; I bet that dialogue isolate does not remove it in comparison to the others, dog barks, birds, crying baby, people in the background, waterfall, etc. if you really want to test those plug-ins, you need to go aggressive with them and feed them recordings with noise which is at the same level of the dialogue at least. I would be grateful if you would do another video of an aggressive noise comparison.
Thank you for the kind words. As a podcast editor, these are the most extreme examples I have. I don't work with clients who are going to be recording in more extreme situations like you mention. I would literally fire a client if they sent me audio like that. As such, I don't have access to examples like that. If you have some audio you have permission to share, feel free to reach out to me using my contact form on the site and I'll see if I can put together a short video comparing them with more extreme audio: www.tansyasteracademy.com/contact
Wierdly, I actually liked VoicEX the least. It sounds the most like Skype/Discord noise reduction to me because it seemingly doesn't even try to remove resonances of the room and fix the voice's spectral characteristics and simply without a tail it becomes super appearent that audio was processes because you hear that such a familiar video call sound where the noise was removed but little to nothing in the sound the what was lost due to reverb and noise is enhanced. Yeah, it removed the most noise but I think the other can do just as much with a second pass.
For those of us who are editing podcasts, a second pass isn't much of an option even if it would produce better results. It's much easier to do a second pass in RX than it is using plugins. I probably take a different approach than many of my peers because I balance efficiency with quality. By that I mean I'm not going to spend a lot of extra time on small details that won't make someone stop listening if they hear it. From that perspective, all of these are more than good enough. It's why I don't A-B test things when I'm working and why I have moved away from the RX editor and have been relying on plugins for noise and reverb reduction.
I think the iZotope's new Dialogue Isolate is acceptable in this comparision but if you already have even the cheapest of them all - Clear, it doesn't seem to be really worth upgrading. I liked dxRevive the most because it seems no only to isolate dialogue but to enhance the timber of the voice and a very pleasent way. That's what a great AI noise reduction tool is supposed to do in my opinion, not only take away the noise but fix what non-ideal miking and space did to the sound because reverb not only add tail it also changes the spectral characteristics of the sound and just removing the tail doesn't do the trick of making it sound as if the voice was recorded in a well treated room close to a mic. And ironically, even though VoicEX is the priciest on the list it was my least favourite. To me it sounded the closest to noise reduction of video call apps (Skype, Discord etc.) because it seems to do the least amount of attempts to fix the timber of a voice, it just removes the noise and tails but the room resonances are still there and it is like super apparent that there was noise reduction applied.
I feel they all offer a better listening experience, which is the goal. The average person is unlikely to care about the subtle differences or even hear them, so the tools have gotten quite good. I agree that VoicEx could improve by adding some restoration features like the others have, but I feel its noise reduction algorithm is better at removing more types of noise. It's the only thing I've found that can remove the rustle from a lav mic or hair rustling against the mic on earbuds. dxRevive does a good job with the reverb reduction, but, to my ears, Accentize's noise reduction algorithms have always been behind everyone else. I wish I could turn it off. Perhaps they will offer that as a new algorithm option in Pro. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to compare any of them to the artifact heavy, brute force algorithms used by Skype and Discord , though, but I do agree that in some cases VoicEx can use some improvements to make it sound less obvious.
Dxrevive pro was the best, but only slightly. I noticed that the best was significantly better. Definitely worth the upgrade, but also the update has some other features that are helpful to have. I really do need to get the dxrevive pro.
dxRevive Pro is getting a lot of love in the comments. I think the decision to upgrade to RX11 really depends on each person's use and what version they're on. For someone on RX 8 or RX9, this might be the time to upgrade. It seems many who are on RX10 are going to wait this one out or pick it up if they find a deal on it.
@@jesse.mccune yeah for sure! I upgraded but tbh I kinda wish I spent that money on dxrevive pro 😂. In any case appreciate this video!
It's good to be have all these options for noise and reverb reduction. Over the last year, we've seen 4 plugins and some standalone options that are significantly better than what was previously available.
It wasn't the best in every situation but overall I'm most impressed with dxRevive. But I'm happy enough with Clarity VX, and in worst case scenarios I run truly awful audio through DaVinci Resolve Studio's dialog isolate.
dxRevive has gotten better with the new Natural algorithm, but the noise reduction is lacking. I'd rank Clarity VX higher in terms of noise reduction than dxRevive. Comments like this tell me that Izotope took too long to make these updates to Dialog Isolate because so many of us have found one or more tools that fit our budget and needs. Not all of us have the budget or need for multiple tools like this.
Advanced upgrade from 10 to 11 is just not worth it.
I'd like to Izotope move away from the annual releases because there just isn't enough to justify upgrading each time. This would allow them to really focus on developing for quality rather than quick turnaround. To me, this feels like a rushed release. Competitors have managed to produce comparable or better results with plugins that are better optimzed than Dialog Isolate. Hopefully they'll optimize DI and the Repair assistant, though I have a feeling that won't happen until RX12.
Could you compare Rx11 dialogue isolate with Clarity vx and SpectraLayer 10 unmix noisy speech
Thanks for the request, but unfortunately, I don't use or own either of those. I have compared Clarity VX with the Dialog Isolate module from RX 10 and felt Dialog Isolate did slightly better. Clarity had some resonances Dialog Isolate didn't and it performed a little better on the example with the laptop fan. Unfortunately, I did this comparison a few years ago before I was doing videos. Without a doubt, the new Dialog Isolate will perform better than Clarity VX. The one thing to keep in mind is that the new Dialog Isolate adds in reverb reduction while Clarity VX is noise reduction only and requires Clarity VX De-reverb to really be an apple-to-apples comparison.
In regards to SpectraLayer, I'm not the one to do that comparison since I'm not a user and I'm moving away from using standalone editors for my work. I've heard good things about it, but the workflow and available tools don't match my needs. Hopefully there's someone out there who uses both and will compare them.
@@jesse.mccune
Thanks, hope you the best.
I think 'Dialog Isolate' is not ready yet for serious use cases. I compared it with 'Clear' and noticed it aggressively attenuates 'Hisss' sounds from vocal. and another thing I noticed that 'Dialog Isolate' has more latency (42ms) than others.
I agree. Dialog Isolate definitely feels like it was forced into this release before it was truly ready. My guess is Dialog Isolate was the reason RX11 missed its annual autumn release last year as they tried to get it to work as a plugin. It's clearly not as optimized as the competition. I didn't use it enough to really notice the latency.
Do you have latency time for Clear, or any of the others?
I upgraded to RX11 standard just to test out if it is a breakthrough as they claim it. I have RX10 advanced, Waves Clarity Vx Pro, Waves De-Reverb Pro and SuperTone Clear.
Well SuperTone is the cheapest but does a better job. I tried proving it to myself that my money is not wasted on Izotope and Waves......but SuperTone Clear won that battle. The only problem with Clear is that it switches back to Trial mode and needs to be activated now and then but I can live with that.....
It seems like a split between those favoring Clear and those favoring dxRevive. I think Waves Clarity De-Reverb Pro is pretty good, but the Clarity de-noiser is on par with the old version of Dialog Isolate, which doesn't compare with the newer plugins.
Supertone fixed the trial mode thing a few months back. Install the latest version and that issue should go away.
Im looking desperately for a voice remover on a movie track. Is there anything that can do it? Dialogue isolate doesnt do it good. Please help!
You could try the Music Rebalance in RX. Other options that have the potential to help would be Supertone Clear and Steinburg SpectraLayers.
@@jesse.mccune Thanks!
@nicknottaken Let me know if any of them worked for you.
I use a lot of the RX tools still. But dxRevive has replaced my source fixing needs. Usually I run revive first then other tools needed after.
What kind of audio do you work with?
@@jesse.mccune mostly podcast audio with less than techy co-hosts. Poor microphones, badly configured interfaces, bad recording environments. The usual.
@rossbalch It's funny because I was talking to a software developer the other day who feels that podcast editors shouldn't have to deal with these types of recordings. The blame was placed on us editors for not teaching the client better, the clients for not caring, and the guests for not having adequate equipment or choosing the right place to record. This developer comes from a radio background and seems to not be in touch with the reality of what podcast editors face on a daily basis. He went as far as saying that I'm doing things wrong and overthinking things by applying noise reduction, reverb reduction, EQ, de-essing, compression, and Mouth De-click, De-plosive, and Voice De-noise as needed.
Great video, thanks for taking the trouble! Izotope is definitely the bomb if you need to go into repair and use every trick in the book to rescue audio that is sh!ite. The jump from RX 9 to 10 had great improvements in many of the algorithms and they even listened to and implemented some of the suggestions ( feathering comes to mind). For Audio Post RX Advanced is a no-brainer. However, I agree 100% that they were caught sleeping or perhaps too busy counting money and took their eye off the ball. RX 11 Advanced should have been ridiculously great. Especially if you concider how long it took them to introduce the new version. Unfortunately it is not. Between Revive, Clarity, Acon, Supertone and using RX 10 Advanced, 11 is unessential.
On a side note - suggestion for your next vid: You can do a exposé on WAVES and their B.S. plugin policies. Total bunch of clowns.
Indeed, RX is a powerful audio restoration suite and has been the leader in the space of audio post-production. Ever since NI acquired Izotope, the upgrades have become more frequent with only a handful of new features and improvements. It's felt as if they're scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for ways to make each annual release. Instead of innovating, they let others pass them by in certain areas. RX was the leader when it came to general noise and reverb reduction, but as the comments here can attest, Izotope has fallen behind and the updated Dialog Isolate isn't reason enough for dialog editors to upgrade.
Regarding Waves, you'll notice their plugins don't feature often in my videos. One, I feel they are similar to Izotope in that they spent too long coasting on their reputation from the early days that many developers have passed them up. As someone who has been a customer for over 20 years, one thing I have seen over the decades is the negative view of WUP. Over the period of 20 years, I've had to pay for WUP twice because the plugins wouldn't work on my new computer or OS. Things were actually worse back in the day when there wasn't a cap. WUP was determined by how many plugins you had and could easily cost 4 figures. If I decide I need to use some of their plugins for something, I will need to WUP for a third time. I don't see it as a BS policy any more than I see paying for an upgrade to RX, Hindenburg or any other software. The problem with Waves is they continue to let people believe it's an annual thing instead of an option. As long as the plugins are working on your computer, you don't need to WUP.
There's no real reason to upgrade even from iZotope RX 8 or 9 to 10 or 11, but if you don't have any of the RX Advanced software - you need it for sure. But DX Revive Pro is the winner anyway in this test. Thank you!
Thanks for your comment. I agree there's no real reason to upgrade from RX 9 or RX 10, but feel there have been enough improvements to justify an upgrade from RX 8. Dialog Isolate got a big improvement in RX9, and again in RX 11. The De-hum module has had some good improvements in RX 9 & 10 and the improvements to the history and restore functions are good quality of life improvements. I used to think RX Advanced was needed for anyone who is editing podcasts for others, but these days, I think Advanced is overkill for that use case, especially now that Dialog Isolate is included in RX Standard.
@@jesse.mccune Yeah, sorry, I forgot about these upgrades in the v. 9, they really were worth an upgrade form v. 8
May I learn some check points and skill s for LF ,MF and HF for superstone clear,RX11 and dxrevive . Normally, we will get high reverse in LF. Thanks for your video ,it already help me to clarity audio in podcast in advance.
I Heard a Difference Between RX 9 and RX 10 ADVANCED… I’m Sticking With 10 ADVANCED… Only if I begin Getting into Movie Making, Then I’ll have a need to upgrade.
@@robertwang28 I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what is being asked here. Could you help me understand what LF, MF, and HF are and what "Normally, we will get high reverse in LF" means?
one would expect that izotope had done more in 1.5 years of no upgrades. It really has lost its place in the market now
That's what happens when you stop innovating and have to play catch up.
@@jesse.mccune wow summarized it perfectly. Thanks
@omerylmaz958 It's sad to see what's happened with Izotope since they were acquired a few years back.
Izotope are falling behind
They are and the Dialog Isolate plugin feels like a “we can do that too” type move. Sort of going through the motions, but not really interested in doing it well.
dxRevive Pro работаю им!!! для меня он пока лучший!!! тем более вышли новые пару алгоритмов но всё равно базовым является Retain__до 5 или 6 kZ, Выше возрождаю Natural!!! только надо регулятор Natural отодвинуть в крайнее правое положение и задать силу в 50% тогда он возрождает практически без искажений! напомню что работаю с ОЧЕНЬ ГРЯЗНЫМИ ФАЙЛАМИ!!! Возможно на более современных записях таких "Экзерсисов не понадобится))))" обязательно выпускай следующее видео!!! И молодец что сделал ЭТО!!!
Thanks for the comment. I'm happy to hear the dxRevive Pro is working so well for you. I'm not a big fan of Accentize's noise reduction, not just on dxRevive, but on any of their plugins. I really hope they put in a reverb reduction algorithm that doesn't have EQ or noise reduction because their reverb reduction is nice. They made the plugin more usable for me with the newer Natural algorithm since it lacks the EQ. That's the thing with audio, we all hear things differently and there's no right or wrong here.
Установил iZotope RX 11 Audio Editor Advanced v11.0.0 .................лично для себя ничего особенно нового отличного от 10й версии не обнаружил! Dialog Isolate у меня даже в режиме Gold работает с тормозами!!!! Видимо iZotope просто "Примерно догнал" остальные фирмы по качеству!!! но не по скорости!!!!! такая скорость конечно "Катастрофа" если они хотят быть флагманами, надо каким то образом вырываться вперёд! просто догонять.......можно всё оставшуюся ..... жизнь! так не долго и в "Трубу вылететь"