12th Fret vs. 14th Fret Join: Hear the Difference!
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- Опубліковано 14 лип 2024
- We've discussed the difference between 12th fret and 14th fret neck joins and today we're doing an A/B comparison between two of our favorite 12-fret and 14-fret models so you can hear the difference for yourself. Looking for resonance? Sustain for days? Projection? Find out the difference between each in our 12 vs. 14 dreadnought comparison. Many thanks to Herschel for this question.
Watch "12th Fret vs. 14th Fret Join: Which One Is Right for You?" at:
• 12th Fret vs. 14th Fre...
Thoughts? Questions? Episode requests? Email us at info@alvarezguitars.com.
Jump to...
0:00 What We're Doing Today
1:09 Meet the Guitars (Specs & Tech Rundown)
2:55 Differences in Construction: Deep Dive
8:06 A/B Test: One Note
9:59 A/B Test: G Chord
10:42 Parting Thoughts
Guitars in this Episode:
MD70BG: www.alvarezguitars.com/guitar...
MDR70SB: www.alvarezguitars.com/guitar...
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8:22 vs 8:39 - One note /
10:11 vs 10:29 - G Chord
Is this a test or a lecture. You were 70% of the way through before a note was played.
I just got my first Alvarez it’s an AGE910 which I paid $449 for, and let me tell you this I was astounded at first strum. This guitar stands up to my Gibson’s, Taylor’s, and Martin’s which are 5X the price. Let me assure you it won’t be my last I have my eye on purchasing a Yairi DYMR70SB and after my first Alvarez I am hooked. It’s unreal to me that you guys produced a $450 guitar that I think any professional could gig. I’m 68 and been playing since I was 12 I have played some outstanding instruments, but this guitar I got was on another level. I can’t wait to get my hands on a Yairi.
That’s fantastic to hear, @alinchitown, thank you very much for the kind words and glad you’re loving your AGE910. Thanks for watching!
Very good video. Very interesting and very clear
I like them both. There is something elegant about the way the 12 fretted volume decays. That’s where the dryer sound of these instruments comes from. I’m a fan of both for sure. Great vid. Thanks.
Thanks for this video. I learned a lot! The difference in sustain was so obvious and it was nice to have the detailed explanation of why.
Amazing I tuned in for a comparison and at minute 8:20 into an 11:45 segment we actually heard the first note! I guess prior to that we were hearing the difference between how many words could be sustained in a #12 breath versus a #14👀. Finally When the picking hand dropped the BS stopped …
Well, unfortunately, it didn't stop. At 11:15 when he said, "I was gonna play some more things, go through some chords and stuff... but I don't think we need to..." I just started laughing. "HEAR the Difference is literally the title of the video! A G note and a G chord were all we got.
Agreed too much bla bla, bla and not enough demo
And for 1 note plucked 5 times. Read my comment above and see if turnabout is fair play.
Talk about drowning in minutia, this video takes the cake!
I truly pity "individuals" like you. For your information, all of the time spent talking explained WHY there is a difference in sustain. But you wouldn't know that, because you have the attention span & intellect of a bassett hound. You even insisted on calling it "BS".
Hi Alvarez folks. All my flat tops are 12 fret to body. I play Collings, Santa Cruz, Martin (12 string) and Eastman! I have three dreads, one Jumbo, a 000, two 00 style and a "0" style.
The reason I play 12 fret versions is not about volume, projection or sustain (although all were chosen for an optimum combination of those qualities, but the PHYSICAL geometry of a 12 fret design. i.e. the fretboard width.
Martin made guitars with 1 &7/8" 47.6 m/m) and 1 &13/16" 46 m/m nut widths until the OM (1929) and the 14 fret dread in 1934. This is where guitars changed oticeably to "rhythm" instruments do compete with archtops and largely for tenor/plectrum banjo players in dance orchestras.
Those of us (and there are many) who require a wider string spacing ni order to play singe string, and melody cleanly rather than simply strumming go to 12 fret (pre 1919-1934 designs) for that clarity.
Eastman offers 12 fret 0 and 00 bur not (yet) 000 and dread 12 fret instruments.
Martin has dropped them entirely, and thankfully Collings offers the full range, but, of course, at a premium price.
People are larger now than in the 1920s-1030s, and this challenge exists for people with normal/average sized hands but with broad fingertips (like me).
Martin has finally widened the nut width on their standard models. Narrow rhythm necks have their place but I see a niche for mid range instruments with wider fretboards (and string spacing of course).
Love my Collings C10, little tight for picking (I’m too hamfisted) but my god does it play beautifully otherwise!!
@@JamesThomas-zl9er Hi James, I've thought about theC10 a lovely version of the L-00 style, but the 1 7 11/162 rhythm fretboard is justb too thin for me to contemplate now. I find that as I get older I can just cope with a 1 & 3/4" like on a Waterloo but my ideal is 1 & 13/16".
@@SillyMoustache true. I swapped between the Collings and a JA90 Telecaster on stage and I found the transition really easy. I’m doing my own thing now, solo stuff, and the C10 is a little tight for finger picking… but can’t get a Boucher in the Uk
Best explanation of 12 vs 14 fret guitars I’ve ever heard!
Thank you, Jeff!
If I played say a 4 minute song, and waited for every note/chord to reach the end of it's full sustain, I would only be able to play one song a night. And the audience wouldn't even know what song I was playing!
I've always thought this whole sustain argument was just pissing in the wind!
I understand the concept of it all, but, when playing a song either strumming or finger style, you are changing fretting quickly. Coupled with almost continuous strumming and/or plucking of the strings. So, sustain is irrelevant.
Except maybe for the very last note of a song. And most folks aren't even going to notice 3 seconds more of sustain or a quicker decay. Hell if you're good, and playing live..... there's applause at the end of the song!
I say, go try out different guitars, find the one you like, learn to play it and stop wasting your learning/practice time on guitar snobs on social media.
Thank you.
It was quite clear, thanks for the theory too
Wow I know every choice makes some difference, but I had no idea moving the bridge off the bracing and joining the neck higher up would have such an incredibly audible difference. Thanks for the great explanation and demonstration. Good mic choices too! Love the Brauner and B&K's!
Thanks for watching, Vincent, and thanks for the feedback!
Great demo! No question the 14 fret has more sustain than the 12 by quite a bit more than I would have imagined!
Interesting test....it was counterintuitive for me. I thought the 12 fret would have more sustain. Your explanation of the physics involved made perfect sense. Great video!
Very interesting video, full of learning. 14 had so much more roundness in the single note and the cord. As someone who plays 12 frets this has opened my ears! Please recommend a 14 fret 1 3/4" slotted head stock for me to try out. Cheers Guys.
If the 'X' brace is shifted back on a 12 fret body joint for say a acoustic steel string guitar then the sustain will be increased if the player wants more sustain. Too much sustain can be an issues especially when recording. With the required bridge location for a 12 fret body joint guitar the bridge is located where the lions roar of the sound is with the added warm that is distinctly noticeable compared to a 14 fret body joint guitar. For my 12 fret body joint guitar builds I have used both 'X' bracing and 'Falcate' (Google Trevor Gore) bracing that includes carbon fibre on the the timber braces with the top and back plates setup to achieve the preferred main low frequency resonances. From this experience I have found that the 'Falcate' bracing on a 12 fret body joint is better for finger style playing having a wider dynamic range and noticeable sweeter rounded notes that are desirable for guitar playing compared to 'X' braced guitars. There are still many amazing sounding 'X' braced guitar builds! Varying the volume and sustain parameters is still possible with the 'Falcate' bracing to suit what the guitar players preferences are for a guitar build. The main thing is to have a guitar build that suits the players preferences be it 'X' braced or 'Falcate' braced for either a 12 fret or 14 fret body joint guitars.
WJ Guitars
Australia
Nice comment Wayne, thank you!
Great response, Wayne, thanks for your detailed input. Appreciate you tuning in. 👍
Indeed. I missed the bracing influence.
Good info i appreciate you guys ,
Muy interesante y enriquecedores sus videos, gracias por compartir. Soy fanatico de Alvarez por su calidad y profesionalismo. Continuen con su gran trabajo. FYI your brand is not well known in my Country (Panama in Central America) but neither in whole latin America. My luthier is amazed with your brand as well.
Thank you, Juan! That's great to hear from your luthier.
love to hear more about 'presence'!!!
Love the vid !
Thanks for watching, Derek 👍
I took the plunge and got the DYMR70SB and I can’t believe how amazing this instrument is. I was astounded at the sound and workmanship. It is a steal at @ $2899, but even better than that my Sweetwater rep had a flawless demo model for $2200, and let me tell you it was love at first strum. Alvarez Yairi IMO are absolutely the best value out there in acoustic guitars, and I own Gibson’s and Taylor’s which I also love but this guitar is a must have for any serious guitarist. It lends itself to any style you play especially a finger picker like me. To me this Alvarez Yairi is the King of commercially made instruments, just WOW what an instrument!!! Every serious player should own one, I started playing playing when I was 12 and I’m 68 so I’ve played and own a few high end guitars this one tops them all. Thank Yairi for this wonderful creation.
Fantastic comment, thank you so much for sharing with us. So pleased you are loving your DYMR70, we love these guitars. Thanks for tuning in! 👍
Excellent trio !
Maybe a string comparison test if you haven't already done one. I would be interested to hear the difference between light strings and medium strings on the same guitar, or same model guitar, so they can be played side by side. I had mediums on my DY-77 for a few years, and I thought there was more bass presence with them, but it was just not comfortable to play the heavier gauge strings, so I switched back to lights.
I did not understand how putting the bridge in a more rigid position increased the sustain, but I after listening to this video, I get the difference between 12-fret guitars and 14-fret guitars. Thank you for this valuable demonstration.
Thanks for tuning in 👍
12 fret guitars will generally loose some sustain and sound more rounded or muted further up the neck you go. 14 fret guitars will have a bit more zing to them at the same neck or fret placement. There are some 12 fret guitars that have more sustain and top end further up the neck than others but are hard to find. 12 frets live and play great near the nut, however Eric Skye's Santa Cruz 00 12 fret guitar is a good example of better sustain overall. But he also keeps the guitar away from his body and his finger technique works on getting that sustain and clearer top end.
Eric Skye, is an excellent musician(wish I had him as a teach!) and his only guitar is the superb Santa Cruz. I wish the video contained more info about playing up the neck, open tuning, etc.
Great video. I had some 7506 headphones on for that demo and the difference was very clear.
Thanks for watching!
I’ve only played 14th fret guitars for the last 28 years.
I was interested in going to a 12-fret because I thought it would be louder and have a bigger response to my finger picking.
Now, I’m rethinking that.
Great comments here, thanks Gilbert and Randall! Appreciate you tuning in 👍
The shorter sustain is one of the things I look for in a guitar. You can have too much of a good thing.
That was one extremely interesting topic, and so well delivered, hats off! 👍
Appreciate that, thank you @Das Gehtdinixan 👍
I could only HEAR about a 1 to 2 second difference between them. I’m going to have to say in my experience that this is clearly dependent on the construction of the guitar. I have a Rainsong Parlor 12 fretter that will ring with that 14 fretter all day and by my count outlasts it by maybe a second or two. The guitar weighs around 3 pounds
Hi Dave I timed this on my Apple Watch and I got the following results: (hearing on my Apple AirPods to block all the other noises out) The 12 Fret lasted 07:15 seconds and the 14 Fret 10:76 seconds!
Great video! I am assuming the main draw for one or the other are over tonal differences and geometry? Would love a comparison from purely a tonal difference standpoint!
Incredible and beautiful Guitars 🏆✨✨✨✨🎼🎼🎼🎼🇺🇸
Thank you, Trevor!
Amazing difference! Thank you very much for these videos -- I would never have thought there would be such a difference! Does the slotted headstock make a difference in tone/response/sustain compared to the solid headstock?
Great question, David! We believe everything makes a difference. But can you hear that difference? We'll add this to our episode list for season 2… 🤔
also would love to hear a song or tune comparison!😊
I've just bought an MDR70 and imo the sustain is remarkably long and while my 14 fret is a different make there is no appreciable difference . Overall the tone is just beautiful with deep round bass and brilliant ringing trebles. Again you could pay three times as much and get nothing better.
Good equal test . ..being solid master built you'll get quality from both it becomes a matter of taste in the end.
That's true, Luke. Good thing there are so many guitars to choose from…!
I actually enjoyed the explanation since I’m not a guitar expert. Would’ve liked to hear a bit more notes. I’ll need to listen to a few songs on each to get a better idea of which one I prefer.
I kinda agree with him, i have a guitar that sustain way more than my other guitars but its the quietest.. Its wierd, the others are way louder with more bass but they dont sustain as much.
The test you guys made was very good, i guess it makes the slope shoulder 12 fret a strumming guitar and the 14 fret a finger picking guitar! I need that slope shoulder! Guys send me one and ill make a bunch of videos comparing it to a bunch of guitars! Haha
Great feedback @End Of Fate, thank you for tuning in! We love a good a/b test. More to come!
I would love to do some videos also
But I need a guitar first to do so
And it's hard for me because I'm a left handed player
Both nice.
Interesting 😮
Having a BOSE audio on my PC , I purposely timed what my I-phone could hear ,,, with a Chronograph APP . on my phone ! I was hearing 7 to 8 seconds on the 12 fret and 11 to 12 seconds on the 14 fret ! That doesn't sound like a lot , but in reality ,,, the 14 fret was 30% Longer sustain !
On my 12 fretter i get a much softer , slinkier feel from my strings , the string oscilation is guite differrent and looses energy faster, and generates less sustain, but it has a larger less disciplined or orderly oscillation pattern. This is a part of the reason.
Thanks for your comment, Jim, appreciate you following the show 👍
No doubt about the difference but
a) isn’t it more about the passive damping effect of the less rigid structure rather than an active action i.e. the less rigid structure allows more energy to be absorbed into the joints etc.?
Hello, I am interested in my final acoustic being an Alvarez. I have a 12 fret picked out. I have a 78 Yamaha Fg 180 that I truly love. Actually it is not my strumming choice but my finger style acoustic. Would I be better off wit a 14 fret for strumming vice the 12 fret ?
Hi Randy, thank you for asking! Are you looking for a strummer or a fingerstyle?
@@AlvarezGuitarsOfficial I purchased the 12 Fret a few days ago from a very Famous “Nick”, who gave me a great deal. Now my life is complete 😎
I'd think the 12 fret then would be better for flat picking as it won't muddy up, but then again there is more presence in the 14 fret.... Oh crap I need them both
We can't disagree! 👍
I’m curious as to why people say a 12 fret has less string tension when I thought if 2 guitars have the same scale length then they should have approximately equal string tension long as same gauge strings are used . Let me know if a 12 fret actually has less string tension.
Doesn’t the headstock have something to do with it? I’d think the flat vs classical here wouldn’t be the accurate way perform this comparison. Also, why not play normally for a bit on each?
Could the slotted headstock be contributing to the quicker decay?
Great question, Tedd! We're putting together some ideas for a slotted headstock episode on Alvarez TV… If you have any other questions please send them our way!
So then, the decision as to which is more suitable for any specific individual song is still up to the performer's preference.
As it should be.
How important is longer sustain to the actual playing of acoustic guitar, real world. How often does a song require you to strum a chord and have it ring out for more tha a four beat measure? Not often I would say. Maybe at the end of the song, but audience applause will likely drown it out by then.
You're right, @rinseyvessel6523! Sustain isn't needed in many playing applications, but it is required in some fingerstyle and lead playing. 👍
I already responded to an individual in the comments here but, I am hoping to get the feedback of the entire community because I am looking at a new guitar and I want as much information as possible to take into that process. I am open minded.
My point (and question I guess) is when would less sustain ever be preferred over more? Any decent player can always control the length of a note with their hands, technique and approach...in a studio situation, in a live situation, in your bedroom.. always. However, you cannot ever make a note sustain longer if the guitar doesn't have it in it...so can someone please explain to me a situation where you can't control the note with your hands and therefore you find yourself wishing ""If I only had less sustain?""
Thanks for the question, Gareth. It's true that most people would likely prefer more sustain, but we do have artists who request less resonance, which is needed to drive sustain. The request usually comes from artists in a live setting in large venues where frequency level could impact feedback. Joe Bonamassa, for example, has specifically requested that his live guitars not be made from solid back and sides, as he doesn’t need sustain or in fact heightened response for his live shows and songs he uses his acoustic guitar for in his shows.
@@AlvarezGuitarsOfficial WoW.. Thanks for your reply. Now that is an amazing answer..Being a better educated musician is never a bad thing...
It all depends on whether you want sustain
Good point, David. Thanks for watching 👍
I cant ever imagine a reason where I would want "less" sustain. I can always control a notes length with my hands but I can't ever make it longer if it just isn't in the guitar...
@@garethmurphy8235 Fair enough. But I can. It's all about tools for jobs really
Is it just me or does the 14 seem to get a 2nd wind/burst about2-3 seconds in... andvthen sustains 4-5 longer??
I hear it also
so why then do a lot of people like the 12th fret..
Was really hoping to hear the sound of the guitars instead of 3 guys talking about the sound of the guitars. 12min, 1 note, 1 chord, good lord. Remake this video .
Wow
you forgot to control for paint job and pick guard - maybe the sunburst dulls the sound and the pick guard - amplifies it .?.. i
n the interests of science please do it again with identical guitars ....I remain skeptical but intrigued.
Ps love the sound of sunburst pps Such a pity to have a talented payer sound one note at the 12 fret - such a waste of talent .
ON a count method show a 40% more.
WOW 14 is soooo much better. Sux to be a 12 LOL
Not sure how more sustain would benefit me. Unless I'm playing the end of A Day in the Life.
It does depend on what you're looking for - some players look for more, and some look for less. Live performance can also affect this search. Thank you for watching! 👍
Of course any dread liver is going to hate anything that's not a dread. 😂
Wow!!! I'd love to take that baby for a ride!!
Thank you, Carmen, we love these 2 models, too. Fun to a/b them together.
The 14 fret G string was a lot clear and louder. The 12 fret, in my opinion is more intimate sounding with its quicker decay.
Stop running your flap hole and do the test!
Hey there, we are a chat show as well as a guitar show. Some people appreciate the details but please feel free to skip forward to the demo on our other videos! ❤️
@@AlvarezGuitarsOfficial
Im willing to bet 99% of the audience are players that have working knowledge of guitars as to wood type quality and tone...bottom line, if the tone stinks nobody's buying! Unless one happens to collect art..I've played guitars in the tens of thousands of dollars range that looked amazing with every piece made from the crem Dela crem that I wouldn't offer a 100.00 for because the tone was crap! And let me tell ya, I've played 300.00 dollar guitars that rang like a bell compared to some of the hand-made turds that should be pitched into the wood burner... Sorry old boy, doesn't how much hype or enthusiastic the sales pitch is or how it's built, it either has or it doesn't. Best not to waste people's time including your on.. respectfully
They are talking rehearsed " guitar speak rubbish". Really! This was nonsense
OK this sounds like a used car sales man sales pitch. I made it through over half the video before I gave up. No guitar playing, just talking. Ww can hear, quit trying to tell us what to hear. Just let the guitars do their thing.
Hi John, thanks for tuning in! This is a chat show, check out some other videos for more playing.
@AlvarezGuitarsOfficial I've owned Alvarez guitars before. Excellent guitars. But thanks to the internet not only have they become more popular. The price has seemed to go up also! I find it funny how people think only Americans can make Excellent guitars. But I've seen alot of extremely Excellent guitars come out lately from unknown people. Thanks to the internet of course. But because of the competition I'm hoping that the prices will come down! And I'm hoping Santa Claus will drop off a D-41 also. You would think I would have learned about this hoping thing problem that I have. But thank you for sharing about that channel.
too much lipflapping what a know it all!!! disappointing
Who the hell cares about sustain? It is completely unimportant..
It certainly is for some styles, often required in fingerstyle and lead playing!
Too much talk and not enough playing
Too much talk not enough playing.
Obviously, you can’t imagine how much more effective, and interesting your discussion would have been if you had demonstrated the sonic differences up front! After 71.23% of your presentation you FINALLY played a note. BUT you didn’t id the number of frets when you were finally demonstrating! I learned nothing. I’m not going to rewind trying to find out which guitar is 14 fret and which is 12! You communicated nothing about the title of this video to me. That you don’t know how to do a presentation is intuitively obvious to the casual observer. Unsubscribing and blocking your channel now.
Verburbating.
8 minutes. The guy on the right explained the difference of sustain between the 14 fret vs 12 fret neck-to-body construction of an acoustic guitar 3 times, in 3 not-too-different ways, and took 8 minutes to do so. He either thinks we're all idiots or loves to wax on pseudo intellectually. I think it's a combination of both.
We understand the bridge to sound hole distance changes when we go from a 14 fret neck to a 12 fret. We understand the bridge's relationship to the top bracing and how vibration affects conduction both ways. Energy transfer via strings and tops are directly proportional depending on construction, especially when one chooses to use the same scale length in the comparison, which one should do as it's not an accurate comparison otherwise. Awesome.
It was obvious to me and others too, I'm sure, that the bearded fellow on the left was anxious to get on with it, as there were only a few minutes left for him to pluck a single note 4 or 5 times.
During and after the demonstration, we were treated to yet 2 more explanations of the physics of acoustic guitar construction and why the 14 fret had a longer sustain and decay than those of the 12 fret guitar, both of which were regurgitations of what he said in the pre-demonstration segment of the video.
To quote the drunk guy in every bar audience, "Shut up and play."
Cheers.