Are 12 Fret Guitars Better? For some people yes!
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- Опубліковано 14 лип 2024
- If you are frustrated with your guitar tone or if your current guitar hurts your hands or is hard to play due to arthritis check out these two phenomenal guitars. Arguably one of the best USA made guitars around the 14 Fret Martin 000-15M vs it's cousin the 12 Fret 000-15SM. Jonathan breaks down the myth of the 12 fret guitar.
My guitars heard you playing and now they know how they are supposed to sound and they are disappointed with me.
I enjoyed your playing, and now I have to go be nice to my guitars.
Great playing! However, I hope you don't mind that I clarify a point that reduced string tension is not a function of a 12-fret neck length, but rather the total scale length of the string, from nut to saddle/bridge. Bridge position is part of that function. The Martin 12-fret gtrs have a scale shorter than the typical dreadnought 25.5 inches. But plenty of other 12-fret guitars have the full-scale 25.5", where the bridge is positioned closer to the heal of the guitar, so they do not have reduced string tension. I have 2 of them and they're fairly common. So the key feature to consider for reduced string tension is scale length. Martin's 12-frets have the reduced scales at approx 24.9". But Gibson's acoustics are 14 frets but they have a shorter scale, 24.75", and so less string tension. Same with all those old Yamaha 14-fret FG guitars. For more details on the differences check out this great vid at: ua-cam.com/video/dh7XV_8GWD8/v-deo.html
Wow! I have never actually seen you play before this. That was awesome! Easy to see which one of the two is your choice!!! Sweet vid! The SM is one bad ass unit.
Jonathan, you are an AWESOME player! I have a new Martin 000-15sm and I love it. I would be happy to achieve an inkling of your skill and finesse. Thanks.
I viewed these comparison videos for about 6 months now and finally pulled the trigger on the 000-SM15. It is warmer and a bit deeper than the 000-M15. With the 12 fret, Martin extended the upper bout providing a larger sound box, hence the deeper sound. By elongating the body you also place the bridge farther up towards the sweet spot of the lower bout. I often use open tunings, so the added resonance is absolutely fantastic, especially in open D. The other thing to consider is the slotted head. There is a sharper angle where the strings meet the nut, also impacting the tone. With a slotted head you also have less wood, reducing the dampening effect of the head on the neck and also the balance of the guitar. The "S" denotes "Standard". This is the way Martin made them in the 20s and 30s (Except for the modern neck profile.). They have reproduced the body and slotted head design, hence the name "Standard". The slope shouldered dreadnoughts came later.
I love my SM! If you are into folk, blues, old time or western, you owe it to yourself to give it a listen. It is warm and resonant and has terrific sustain. The matte mahogany actually lovingly vibrates in your arms as you strum it. 'Nuff said. I'm going to go play my gal now.
I had no idea about non-slotted headstocks dampening the sound. Thanks for your comments. Very helpful & educational.
Thank you for taking the time to write this up! I'm watching this video trying to decide between an Alvarez parlor 12 fret or 14 fret. I appreciate hearing someone who chose the 12 fret route, and I even learned a couple of other reasons I didn't know about where the 12 fret could be more beneficial. I would also like to add, for shorter people like me, it also feels more comfortable for your left arm since the fretboard is 2 frets closer to you. 🙂👍
Hey John - it’s not that they”extended” the upper bout, on your Martin, it’s that they “squashed” the upper bout to create the 14 fret!
I’m a 12 fret junkie! Love ‘em of my aprox two dozen guitars - 12 are acoustics - of the 12, four of them are 12 frets - a Martin D-18s, a Martin 00-17 Black Smoke, a Martin 000-17sm (like in this vid) and a Gretsch 000 resonator. I also have a 13 fret Martin SC-13e that has the coolest dove tail joint ever!
Move that bridge further into the lower bout, and sonic magic happens!
12 frets rule!
Peace
@@JoMaMaz Even though I have big hands I like playing my Hohner 3/4 12th fret in DADGAD.
Even though I have big hands I like playing my Hohner 3/4 12th fret in DADGAD. I hate dreadnoughts.
Fantastic review with information I needed (like which is better for older hands, etc…). Thanks!
Thanks bro - this really helped trying to decide between these two.
Informative for those of us trying to decide which to get. Both are great. Also love that Friend of Devil tease.
Really good reviews, thank you. I'm in my 70s and my hands aren't what they once were, the change to 12 fret guitars has helped slow Father Time.
Love your playing. Great stuff.
Great stuff-I’ve learned a lot. I thought 12 fretters basically had a fuller sound and less fret access, but it seems there’s a lot more to the difference. Thx!
Wonderful playing, and excellent review
Thank you for a very informative vid. I'm older than I was.(yesterday) and I've been having some left hand problems. I dont finger pick, but I do move around. I've ben considering a 12 fret. If it will help even just a little, a little helps .Real nice stuff you're doing there. Thank you.
You asked the '12 harder questions - and it came up with the answers!
[Tyneside, England.]
I guess I'll never be able to move my fingers so fast. You are a very romantic guitar player. Meaning I've seen many players with the same technical prowess, but they almost all lack that emotive feel.
Great playing but:
1) “S” stands for standard, not slope, not slotted. All Martins used to be 12 frets. That used to be the “standard”
2) the string tension is basically the same because the scale length is the same
3) Lots of manufacturers move the bridge on their 12 fretters, but Martin does NOT. They simply elongate the body around the neck, hence the funky shape. To get a moved bridge, you’d have buy the old Norman Blake model, or custom order a 12 fretter with a 14 fret body shape.
The bridge on the 12 fret is moved farther down the body into the lower bout therefore the scale length is exactly the same as the 14 fret. The string tension should be no different between the two. The 12 fret string tension is not slinkier.
That's not true. I can't speak to measurements or mechanics, but I can say that I played a 12 fret at a shop right after a 14 fret and it felt like the 12 string was tuned down or something. Way less string tension.
@@462rob you are correct. The tension is loser.
I believe that people used to move the bridges back a bit on old Gibson SGs for that reason. Would create a bit of a softer playing experience.
Michael is correct. It’s simply physics. What you guys are feeling is perceived tension likely more due to bridge / saddle / action etc.
The string tension is the same due to the matching scale length.
The percieved difference is due to the picking hand location in regards to the bridge. You are picking more towards the middle of the scale.
@@gtb5216 You nailed it man.
Did anyone mention this guy's playing kicks ass, they both sound great, since Im.maybe need a 12fret
Thank you!
@Jonathan Robinson , ok Im back 2 years later still have not brought home a 12fret and still can't play nowhere near as good as you
nice playing . . . I like 12 frets . . . used to it . . . as well I only have a resonator ATM, so and it was the first guitar I started out on . . .
This. Was awesome!
I have a 12 Fret 000-16Sgt- Love it! Having said that, I thought string tension ("Slinkiest"), you described was due to the scale, not body shape. Both the guitars you demo have 25.5 inch scales which should be exactly the same string tension, right? Thanks
We still need more like this...at least more acoustic guitar in general
Incredibly helpful . Thank you . Enjoyed the playing a whole lot too yes sir 😊
Now I want a 12 to compliment my oooauditorium...
Same scale length brother. Other than that great video thanks very much for posting
Wonderful guitar and playing on the 12-fret.
The 000-15SM has the same scale length as the 000-15M (25.4in), so if the strings feel 'slinkier' it could be because you're playing further up from the bridge from where you normally play. Has the SM been discontinued? I've noticed it's no longer on Martin's website.
No, the 000 is 24.9 scale length. OM is 25.4.
@@thisismatt7 Not on the 15 series. 00 and 000 are 25.4in. (Hence, no OM15.)
@@IndigoJo I did not know the 15 series was an exception, thank you
Yeah I agree with everything said. I don’t have a 00015SM but I do have a Martin 00016C -12 which is also a “12 fret” similar but a nylon sting and with a cut away and Spruce top with Mahogany back and sides and I love mine. It sounds like a piano, has great harmonics even in places other than the 5th, 7th , and 12th frets, which is a sign of a great guitar I have been told. I have been thinking about buying a 12 fret steel string, I may just have to check one of these out. I really wish I could put steel strings on the 00016C Nylon but I don’t want to implode the top , although it would be a cannon if I could.
The sound is better because of the position of the bridge. They sound better than 14 fret guitars with the same body size.
Yeah, but on this 12-fret guitar the bridge has not been moved lower on the bout because the scale is still full length, not shortened. Therefore on this particular guitar the voice is not nearly as full and does not have the low end tone that you get with a 12-fret that has those changes made to its scale length and bridge position.
The bridge position is dictated by scale length , but if you effectively move the neck back, to join the body at the twelvth fret, the bridge position MUST move back further in the lower bout. Bridge position is twice the distance of the nut to twelvth fret. So is not just arbitrarily placed. It must be where it is for correct intonation!
@@Wobbz9413 Correct. 12th fret is more resonant because of the bridge position :) Classical guitars are all 12th fret. I've heard that 14th fret came about because of banjos becoming popular.
Of course the bridge has moved! It is a twelve fret to the body, so the bridge is that much further into the bottom bout.
A comparison would have been far more informative on both guitars had you played the same thing on both!
Hey there, enjoyed the video. I’m actually trying to decide on these two. I live in Mexico by the Belize Border so can’t get to you but I appreciate the difference and your thoughts. Thanks for explaining the “S” thought it was for “Slotted” the S seemed Booming is the cavity thicker? Really am a bit torn! The regular M looks nicer not so I don’t know 🤷♂️ Renaissance looking maybe 🤔 I like to play the intro to Brown eyed girl which gets lower and after playing for a while if the width from back to front is wider it might become cumbersome.
These two are awesome sounding though, thank you
12 all day. This is really helpful.
Umm, scale length "smooshes" the neck together. A 12 fret at 25.4" scale length feels exactly like a 24 fret with 25.4" scale length. It only moves or shifts the neck to the right (if you're playing a right handed guitar).
It feels different because of your hands/neck position relationship. I understand that it gives the illusion of feeling smaller and smooshed.
Slinkier feel is a scale length thing. Actually, a 12 fret, with the sharper headstock angle break feels less slinky.
Perception is a funny thing, ain’t it. And people make up shit to explain and rationalize their perceptions all the time. The two thoughts I had were a) the ergonomics are much different on the 12-fret when playing seated, and b) there is the difference in how the guitar top behaves due to the position of the bridge-this could have an effect on how the tension feels if there is just slightly more give/movement.
Absolutely correct. I, at first assumed the 12 fret was a smaller scale, since that is what I am looking for. I recently started playing a Taylor 562ce 12 string, and really like the shorter scale. Thanks for alerting me to this.
I wonder if the feel difference has to do with the wider nut on the SM - it’s 1 3/4”.
Love the 12fret more! Can tell he does too!
I have 2 14frets and 1 12frets and I love both but I think I prefer the 12frets junction. just a matter of taste and use, really. both are great.
THAT was an incredible performance! And it's obvious which one Johnathan prefers just by the way he got after that SM! I lust for one of those......gives me some added motivation to knock down an extra 15 hondo and pick up a nice used one.....man that dude can play......!
how could 12-fret strings be "slinkier" or of less tension if both are of the same scale length?
The bridge sits in the center of the back, so it moves more.
They are NOT the same scale length. The 12 fret has a shorter scale. Diane Ponzi from C. F. Martin & Co. explained it perfectly by comparing a Martin OM 14 fret model to a Martin 000 12 fret model. The guitar bodies are identical in every way. They have the same woods and the same bracing - the only difference being scale length (and style of pick guard - OM has a teardrop shape). Let me paraphrase her. If one took the OM and put a capo on fret one, the scale length would now be shortened and it would in fact be identical to the 000, but the tone would be a half step higher because of the capo. If you tuned it down a half step, it would now be a perfect match to the 000. Take note however that the OM had to be tuned DOWN (less string tension) to make it match. This explains why short scale 000 guitars have less string tension to get the same note. Less tension means a warmer tone and easier string bending. You are right about the scale length being an essential difference which makes string bending easier.
@@PotPoet You are right in your summary of how scale length works, but the 12-fret actually has a 25.4" scale length which is the same as OM and Dreadnaught guitars. Actually, both the 000-15 and the 000-15SM have 25.4" scale lengths according to Martin's website. www.martinguitar.com/guitars/15-series/000-15SM.html
@@praski149 I will Diane Ponzi's word for the differences. She is a long, long, long term employee and rep for Martin. Of course both 000's have the same scale length. The scale length differs between the 12 fret and the 14 fret models.
@@PotPoet I think we're talking about 'perception' here. String tension is simply a factor of scale length and string gauge/materials; where the neck joins to the body has no effect on tension. Both these guitars have the same scale length and therefore are at the same string tension with the same strings. If one feels easier to bend, that's a result of many other factors - picking position, action, relief, neck carve and especially fingerboard radius, and so on. The reviewer is a little confused in what he's saying; the 12-fret may indeed feel easier to bend strings on, but that isn't due to lower string tension.
love how taylor and lowden push the bridge into the lower bout, it adds warmth. taylor 12 frets are fantastic, andy powers says on a taylor, the slotted headstocks give a more slinkier feel bc the break angle. lowden 12 frets are insaneeeeeee. they’re effortless to play, the best i have ever laid my hands on!!
Got a chance to play one of the 12 fret slotted Taylors, and now I'm on the hunt to try all the 12 frets before I decide which one.
How much different is a short scale 12-fret from the standard scale? Even easier on the hand? Will it play in tune?
Jonathan, thanks! 12-fret guitars are usually better balanced for highs and lows, possibly with better bass. Thanks.
ooo-15sm... my next bucket list guitar for sure !
Love the 12 fret tone
Dude, you sound like Kenny Powers (Danny McBride) from Eastbound and Down. Uncanny
Kennyyyyyyy! Hahah
I have the 000-15m and love it. Must say, you have got to be a very large human because that baby looks like a parlor in your hands! It looks so much bigger on me hah.
😅 Just saw this. I suppose I am fairly large human.
The slinkier feel has nothing to do with the number of frets, but rather with the length of the strings, called "scale length". Any guitar could have a shorter scale length, no matter how many frets.
And there two guitars are both 25.4" scake so no difference in scales, ot tension.With the 12 fret the bridge is slightly better placed obn the lower bout, but the importnat aspect "should be" a wider fretboard and making a 12cfeetter bwith a thin 1 & 3/4" nut 2idth is kinda missing the point.
However,i8t seems that Martina now completelty abandoned all the the 12 fret models that madevthem so respected so go to or Eastman, Blueriidge or collings for the real thing.
On the 15 series they are the same length 25.5 just the uper bout is longer towards the neck .and the 1 3/4 nut.
So the tension is the same.
Nice video 2 issues i gues 1 did i miss the neck lenght of the 12 frett. The 14 was 25.4 are they the same? Normally the longer has a deeper more mellow sound. And the B string on the 14 seamed funny. Ive got 33 yrs worth of jet engine ears so its probably me lol.
How is there less string tension on a 12 fret guitar if the scale length is the same?
I have a 3/4 12 fret that I play in open C#.
There is not. The guy demonstrating the guitar is delusionary. Less string tension only comes about by having a shorter scale length, usually 24.x inches instead of 25.x inches. He is imagining a slinky feel because he has confused a 12 fret guitar with a short scale guitar.
I have a 000-17 12 fret and my older hands love it. Besides it's just a great guitar. For sure try out a 12 fret if you can find one before you buy and I agree the 15's are the most popular model for a reason. Not everybody plays bluegrass and needs or wants a boomer.
I used to have one of those slot headed mahogany Martins…I sold it after a year of owning it. Did I not like it? No it was fine. I never liked the satin finish. I never liked the lack of any of the Martin type of binding. If it had been a 17 series I would likely have never sold it. It was a nice experience while I had it, but a spruce top mahogany Dred with a 12 fret neck was always what I was kind of after anyway. Thanks for the comparison
Wow! That dude is a kick @$$ guitar player.
Thanks so much!!
@4:23 : Why would you fee less string tension with a 12 fret guitar when the scale length is the same as a 14 fret guitar? The neck is indeed smooshed into the body but the bridge is also shifted by the same distance. I agree slotted headstock might have an impact on string tension (the same way you would feel a difference between a through and top load Telecaster) but if the headstock was the same as the 14 fret guitar, they should feel the same (because their scale length is the same).
The "S" actually stands for standard
The S is for ‘slothead’
@@BobK5 yup
Yep! It's a hold-over from when the 12 fret was the "standard." But because they also have slotted heads, many mistakenly assume it stands for slothead
Slope
Correct, it’s stands for standard. Lots of misinformation in this video
Couldn’t someone just measure the nut to bridge length and put the debate to rest? Whenever I make it out to a shop that has both I’ll do it for the hell of it. Comes down to how it feels in the hands really - great comparative btw. Thanks
Brother just the biggest problem
Cz usually whenever a guitarist wants to pick a guitar he goes like "ohh there two types of guitars, should I get the classic,or steel string ",and than if chose steel string they go like " should I get the 12 or 14frets one "
Actually, they both have the same scale length - abnormally long: 25.4 vs Martin standard series 000’s. Great playing tho.
I hope those strings are ok! Ouch!!!
There is no difference in string length between a 14 and 12 fret. The tension all comes from the different break across the nut.
depends on the scale length ,
I couldn't tell much about the way the guitar sounded because of you thrashing the heck out of the strings, I thought when you started to finger pick I would get something, even then the hard plucking was distracting. Other than that, nice demo.
Worried I was only one. It was super unpleasant the way he overhits the notes.
@@PaulCypert Haha, me too.
That's just how he attacks the guitar. That's just his style. IMO, he's an excellent player. Everyone attacks a guitar differently.
@@sasquatchlife8836 attacks being the key word there. Maybe throw a few aggressively in front too lol
Frets over 14 on any acoustic are both existant and non existant. Schrodinger's Frets.
Gotta love physics humor! 😂 And I have to pretty much agree.
The neck gets "smooshed in" but the bridge budges back too to compensate.... No loss of tension bro.... Does put the bridge in a more optimal position for tone and bring the nut closer to hand.
Interesting how your harmonics are at 12th fret too
That 12-fret 000-15SM would have more depth and fullness if Martin had shortened the scale and moved the bridge down toward the middle of the lower bout. I wonder why they didn't do that. It would also make it easier to play.
Shorter scale would move the bridge a bit closer to the sound hole, not further away.
Owned the same 14 fret Martin. Nice but they barely use any glue on neck joint ... started separating for no reason (barely played)... Google search seems to be an issue ... while I understand why Martin would not use “too much” glue... not using enough seems like a quality issue. There’s not much cost to build these but they sure do charge a premium.
I'm committed to 12 fret flat tops, but not because of he 12/14 fret join. 12 fret designs were all Martin made until the OM in 1929. The real advantage of those earlier designs were balanced across the strings rather than the more modern Martin bass biased, and the wider fretboards with at least 1& 13/16" nut widths. The slotted headstocks are an advantage esp. when performing as the tuning machines are more convenient to your left hand - (less wrist contortion).
I beg to differ with the suggestion that string tension differs - this may be that an assumption that as the slotted headstock traditionally has a slightly steeper angle from the fretboard, which gives slightly more tension over the nut to tuner, but does not affect the tension of the string from nut to bridge.
Oh, btw, at 4.12 the "S" stands for "standard" as in d35-S, i.e, the original pre '34 designs, not slope shoulder.
Hi Silly Moustache, I’m now a committed 12 fret. They just sound better to me. And play easier. I’ve been selling off all my 14 frets to find more 12s. PreWar guitar company is coming out with a 12 fret D. I’ve played some of their guitars and they’re great. I’ve been a follower on your channel. Thanks for getting me hooked on the 12 fret, although an expensive changeover.
What the heck do i need to practice to sound like you!? Lol
ignoring sound, the 12-fret simply looks better. the outline is more balanced, lower vs upper bout. The 14-fret always looked "smooshed" or "truncated", to me.
Nice pick flip from finger picking, almost didnt see it
that B string sure is twangy. Maybe its just a heavy hand, but rattle rattle here comes the cattle!
That friend of the devil was beautiful
loved that friend of the devil
Thanks so much!!
The solution is to buy both, which I did.....
Just buy the 14th fret and tune down.
If you must play in E then get a capo. Still have the slinky and access to the higher frets.🤷♂️
Friend of the Devil at 6:24 if I'm not mistaken
12 frets are the best! i have 5 and no slotted headstocks for me!
I don't get the "slinkier" notion. Both guitars have the same scale length, and the same bridge location on the body. The only difference is that the 12-fret has the body "extended" to reach the 12th fret. There should be no difference in feel, except for, possibly, a STIFFER feel with the 12-fret due to the sharper break angle over the nut caused by the slotted headstock. A more flexible top could lend a slinkier feel, but that has nothing to due with 12 vs 14 fret.
This man is correct
Kick a$$ playing
The ‘S’, is for ‘standard’.
lol sounds like you were playing friend of the devil on the 12 fret at around the 6:22 mark
Nice I say Nice!
I guess you dont like fingerstyle bro, anyway the 12 fret made you sound better.
Martin Om’s are 25.4, 000 are 24.9..
So much wrong information in one video lol…
Quit showing off