You guys can’t have it both ways. Those who testified under oath of Joseph Smith’s monogamy also testified under oath (on the very same day btw) that the King Follett discourse did not mention the plurality of gods. So if they were honest, Wilford’s lone recording would be in alignment (who was also present when they were testifying, I might add, and never refuted them on the matter). If you’re going with a belief that they were lying about KFD, then no sense in believing them about their testimony that Joseph was monogamous.
So far, I'm thinking He began as the Father, became also the Son by becoming Mary's son. He's the Son created by the Father's power, therefore He is the Father's son. Could the Father's power be another name for a shared spirit, that is known as the Holy Spirit? The Spirit is able to be spread amongst others, shared. Still watching and have no idea if I'm anywhere near right. 1:04:54
Excellent, a well explained and supported understanding of who Jesus Christ is and who we worship. I’m a bit perplexed why so many in our circles are questioning this currently, but it’s probably part of their deconstruction. It’s difficult to find the bedrock of truth (who Jesus is) - but you both clearly explained scripturally who He is and who we worship. What a beautiful plan. I believe that one reason many reject the plurality of Gods is that without MMPs, it doesn’t work. Many reject MMPs because of the recent messes in the LDS church that include people who twisted the doctrine in a huge way, seeking power and gain.
There is only one God and there will ever only be one God. Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is both the Father (because of His Spirit) and the Son (because of His flesh). The Father is the title of fullness of God’s Spirit that dwells in the Son (His flesh) and the Holy Spirit is the title of His Spirit sent to us. God the Father, in the Son, and as the Holy Spirit God is a Spirit (John 4:24). He is invisible (1 Tim 1:17, Col 1:15). No man has seen God at any time (John 1:18). Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15). Anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Father (John 14:9 The Father is in Jesus (John 14:10) The Son is the everlasting Father and the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) The Word is God (John 1:1) The Word was made flesh (John 1:14) The fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus (Col 2:9-10) Jesus Christ is the great God and our Savior (Titus 2:13) The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost are One (1 John 5:7) Mosiah 8:28-32 RLDS (15:1-5 LDS) And now Abinadi saith unto them: "I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people; And because He dwelleth in flesh, He shall be called the Son of God; And having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because He was conceived by the power of God, and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son, And They are one God, yea, the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth - And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, But suffereth Himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by His people. Luke 10:23 Inspired Version (Joseph Smith Translation) All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.
The issue with this is that there is no room for heavenly mother here and by extension, women in the plan of salvation. Joseph originally taught one God. Every parent I know would rather take the place of their child than watch their child suffer. Believing God and Jesus to be separate beings definitely makes it harder to respect a Heavenly Father who would rather sacrifice his own son for some greater purpose than go in his place.
Performing that sacrifice is what perfects a Son into becoming a Father. That was a major point in the King Follett discourse as well as the scriptures themselves.
So when Jesus tells us to liken heaven unto a king making marriage for his son, this analogy is so victimizing to you that your reply is that he didn't mention any queen, so therefor there are no women in heaven and no room for any heavenly mother in this scenario, so he must mean the king is the same being as the son? Why did Jesus quote David's dream of seeing TWO Lords speaking to each other? No mention of any queen. Are you throwing out the New Testament? And when Jesus calls himself the true vine and the father the husbandman, this analogy doesn't mention women so he must mean the vine and husbandman are the same thing?
I’m not sure how it doesn’t make room for a heavenly mother - you can’t have a father and son without a mother also. And no son can be a father to himself. He must have his own parents. As far as the sacrifice goes, Jesus is the God of this creation. He’s our God. He created us and he suffered and died and his Father allowed it because Jesus was a grown Man (capital M), capable of making his own decisions, capable of making his own sacrifices. He chose it. He did it. That’s how I understand it anyway. And it completely satisfies the aspect of how much it would pain a father to see it happen.
Agree, and there is no heavenly mother....which is why none is mentioned in the scriptures (besides the pagan false worship of Queen of Heaven). There is only one God and there will ever only be one God. Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is both the Father (because of His Spirit) and the Son (because of His flesh). The Father is the title of fullness of God’s Spirit that dwells in the Son (His flesh) and the Holy Spirit is the title of His Spirit sent to us. God the Father, in the Son, and as the Holy Spirit Mosiah 8:28-32 RLDS (15:1-5 LDS) And now Abinadi saith unto them: "I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people; And because He dwelleth in flesh, He shall be called the Son of God; And having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because He was conceived by the power of God, and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son, And They are one God, yea, the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth - And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, But suffereth Himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by His people.
You mentioned that Joseph could change the revelations because he received them. How does this work? In what other context would a boss allow a subordinate to change the instructions and be fine with it? How would we know a true change vs a false change? Is God okay with all changes?
Only the revelator in question knows what the original revelation was. There are various scenarios where what goes down on paper or gets printed ends up being something less than the pure meaning of the original thing. It is reasonable that the revelator should have leeway to correct something that isn't faithful to the original intent. But he's the only one that could do that, as he's the only one that was witness to the original experience from whence the written revelation came.
A special conference was held at Nauvoo, convening on April 6, 1844. The business done was not of special historical importance, being principally devoted to instruction. It was at this conference that Joseph Smith preached the funeral sermon of King Follett. A synopsis of this sermon was published in the Times and Seasons in August, 1844. We do not feel justified in presenting this synopsis as containing the teachings of Joseph Smith, for several reasons. First: The sermon was said to be a very long one, while this extract covers less than five pages of the Times and Seasons, and can leisurely be read in about twenty-five minutes. One cannot get the true sense of a discourse from so meager an extract. Second: It was not found in print until after Joseph's death, and hence was not subjected to his inspection as published. Third: Its style and diction, as well as its doctrinal teachings, differ so widely from the productions of Joseph Smith as found elsewhere that it suggests suspicion as to its genuineness. Fourth: We have no evidence that a verbatim report was made when delivered, and hence it must have been written from memory, or at best from notes. So without indorsing [endorsing] or condemning we decline to present it as historically correct. RLDS History of Church - vol 2 pg 734
The first point is a logical fallacy. The second point was also a logical fallacy. Third point is inaccurate because most of the doctrine in there was repeated or touched on in the sermon at the grove as well as revelations in the D&C. Fourth point - without endorsing OR CONDEMNING - they clearly knew they didn’t have the evidence to condemn the sermon, which is what you continuously try to do.
@@DoctrineofChrist “What About The King Follett Funeral Sermon? The report of this sermon by Joseph Smith has long been the source of controversy for two reasons. The first has to do with Joseph purportedly teaching the concept of many Gods, as the following extract demonstrates: You have got to learn how to be gods yourselves; to be kings and priests to god, the same as all Gods have done; by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as doth those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. (Times and Seasons, Vol. V, p. 614) There are several problems surrounding this sermon. The first is that the excerpt just quoted is contrary to the established word of God in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and the revelations approved by the church during the life of Joseph Smith. The second problem has to do with when the sermon was first published. Joseph was to have preached this sermon on April 7, 1844. Joseph Smith was killed in June of 1844, and the first printing of this sermon occurred in August of 1844, two months after Joseph’s death. As a result, he was not in a position to either affirm or deny its contents. The third problem centers around a statement found in the history as recorded by the Utah Church which states: It must be remembered that the above report of the Prophet’s remarks, as also the report of the King Follett sermon (preached in April, 1844, and which will appear in Volume V of this history)...were reported in long hand and from memory, so that they are very likely to contain inaccuracies and convey wrong impressions. (History of the Church, Vol. IV, p.556) The fourth and final problem has to do with the testimony of James Whitehead, Joseph Smith’s personal secretary who was in the congregation when this sermon was preached. He testified that: I heard what is known as the "King Follett" sermon preached. That sermon was published. Joseph Smith did not in that sermon teach the plurality of gods. (Complainant’s Abstract of Pleading and Evidence, Herald Publishing House, Lamoni, IA, 1893, p. 37) When all of this information regarding the King Follett is considered, it would be suspect at best to consider this an authoritative teaching of Joseph Smith.”
I just checked the printer's manuscript and the original manuscript for the Book of Mormon. The 1837 changes Joseph did to the Book of Mormon are not there. The JSP doesn't seem to have all the original so I checked 1 Nephi 11:18, which is top of page 17 in original. Joseph added "the Son of" when it wasn't in original or printers manuscript. This is the same with 1 Nephi 11:21 which is the same page. This is the same with the printers manuscript for 1 Nephi 13:40. Bottom of page 16 and top of 17. Why would Joseph obscure this in 1837?
The first edition contained numerous aberrations that Joseph and Oliver spent a lot of time correcting. Subsequent printings under Joseph's supervision were deemed more faithful than the first edition.
@@ssuede7 Specifically though, Joseph added "son of" to a few places in the 1837 update. This text was not in the original at all. This all coincides with Joseph starting to teach them as separate beings. Prior to this they were a single individual. 1836 was a pivotal year for the church in numerous ways, both good and bad.
@@Telavian I don't believe that Joseph taught God as separate beings. I believe those accounts are from other individuals...not Joseph. Luke 10:23 Inspired Version (Joseph Smith Translation) All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.
Thank you for this video. What you said made sense to me. I know that everyone is on their own journey, and I respect others' journeys, especially as they are sincerely seeking Jesus and truth. For me, I have pondered the Father and the Son being the same person, but it doesn't set right with me. Maybe I have more to learn, but for now, my answer is that they are separate. I also love that you defended Joseph Smith. I know he wasn't perfect, he was a man, yet I believe that we can't judge his relationship with God/Jesus and the angels that appeared to him. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Was he a fallen prophet? No, I don't believe so. I believe that he did his best to always learn from God and serve Him to the end.
How are these not clear? Alma 8 79-82, 104 RLDS (11:26-29 LDS) And Zeezrom saith unto him: "Thou sayest there is a true and a living God?" And Amulek saith: "Yea, there is a true and a living God." Now Zeezrom saith: "Is there more than one God?" And he answered: "No." Ether 4:12 For behold, I Am the Father; I Am the light and the life and the truth of the world. - Jesus Christ
Baruch the scribe rewrote that upon the scroll that was destroyed by King Jehoiakim …. And ADDED many LIKE WORDS unto it. Jeremiah 36:32. Word can be both changed or clarified according as Spirit sees fit for spiritual purposes.
I decided to take a stab at explaining how I've come to understand the verse in Mosiah 15:3 "The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and the Son. Perhaps the key words here are CONCEPTION and FLESH." Christ is described as being the Father elsewhere in scripture by virtue of His role in the creation and fulfillment of the atonement and resurrection. Through the atonement and resurrection, Christ became the Eternal Father of the souls of those who would believe in Him. Ether 3: 14 14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. While it isn't completely spelled out, I wonder if because he was conceived by the power of God, there was a very tangible part of him that was the seed of God or God's DNA, if you will. This unique conception by the "power of God", enabled Christ to inherit every characteristic and traits of the Father through grace and obedience to the will of the Father. Add to that the total "agreement" with the mind of God or Holy Spirit and the agreement or oneness made them so alike, that he possessed everything God the Father possesses - including the title of Eternal Father. Conversation between Zeezrom and Amulek: Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last; and he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that have eternal life, and salvation cometh unto none else. In John 14:7-9, Christ emphasizes the point of God the Father and God the Son's identical characteristics when he effectively said, "if you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? I envision this "sameness" is both in their physical form as well as their character, thoughts and actions. They both are the perfect representation of Truth & Light personified. They are in TOTAL agreement down to their appearance thanks to Christ being conceived by God's power. Another way Christ is the Father is through the creation of heaven and earth. He literally created the heavens and the earth - again, through the power and under the direction of God the Father. Thus, Christ as prophesied in Mosiah 3:7 "And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary." Now, to explain the 2nd half of how Christ is the Son because of the flesh. I think this is much easier to understand. The verse above is the big clue. The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and the Son. Because Christ took upon Him a mortal body in order to complete His mission and inherit all of God's glory, He was conceived by the power of God, but he had a mortal mother in the virgin Mary. He is the Son of God the Father in the flesh. That doesn't present too much confusion I don't think. That's how I understand it currently at least. Thanks for your insights!
The Father and the Son are two titles which Christ has within the Everlasting Covenant. Jesus is CALLED the Son of God, but he is also CALLED the Father. But, there is also the Father, the being to whom the Son subjects his will. Mosiah 15:2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be CALLED the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son-- Mosiah 15:3 The Father, BECAUSE he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus BECOMING the Father and Son-- Mosiah 15:4 And THEY are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. Mosiah 15:5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am; D&C 93:2 And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world; D&C 93:3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one-- D&C 93:4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men. D&C 93:5 I was in the world and received of my Father, and the works of him were plainly manifest. D&C 93:14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first. D&C 93:15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son. D&C 93:16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father; D&C 93:17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.
You mentioned that a Heavenly Father and a Mother create a Son who performs the Atonement. Is that the only purpose for an eternal marriage? Do they create through intercourse all the other spirit children? When they are done creating children then what is the purpose of their marriage for the rest of eternity?
Heavenly father or GOD HAS MARY A MORTAL WOMAN ABOUT 16 YRS OLD CONCIVED BY THE SPIRIT SHE GIVES BIRTH TO THE BABY JESUS CHRIST JOSEPH A STRANGER TO MARY WAS VISITED BY AN ANGEL TO GO TO MARY AND TAKE HER AS HIS WIFE AND BE MORTAL FATHER OF JESUS UNTIL JESUS IS OF AGE HE LEAVES AT 12 TO DO HIS MINSTERY . ADAM AN EVE HAVE CHILDREN NOT IN 9 MONS THEY PROCREATE D THE EARTH THEIR CHILDREN AN THEIR CHILDREN ETC.STILL BABIES BORN TODAY WE ALL CAME FROM ADAM AN EVE BUT EVERY CHILD BORN WAS SPILPT SEED NOT BLOOD BROTHERS SISTERS ❤❤
LDS please don't reject GOD of BIBLE & follow the FALSE GODS of Joseph Smith? Isn't your eternity worth looking for TRUTH? "Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of J.S. and LDS members. Isaiah 44:6 says, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is NO God." & "Is there any God besides me?.. I know not one". God is saying there is NOT an infinite amount of Gods, and there is none like Him. LDS teaches that there is. He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did" (King Follett Sermon) Either the BIBLE or LDS is FALSE. LDS CLAIMS the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods. This is a PROVABLY FALSE claim.
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was CORRUPTED and "plain and precious parts" were removed AFTER the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and ABOMINABLE church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Nephi claims this church was founded by the DEVIL (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively TEST the BIBLE v.s. BOM. LDS paid scholar Dan McClellan in 2024: "The data pretty firmly points in the OPPOSITE direction of a historical BOM" youtube short video "Is the BOM historical?" NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings described by J.S. (Mormon 9:32) ever found ANYWHERE. All reputable linguists have rejected it as mythical as of 2024. Professor Charles Anthon Feb. 17, 1834 NO trace of Jewish DNA found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (LDS scholar, DNA expert): “the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are NOT Jewish. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005 NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 drawings from an Egyptian papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus of scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In drawings Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do NOT match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE NO trace of “2 million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. Impossible for millions of dead warriors in metal armor to leave no trace. NO trace of the "great city Zarahemla"- impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla described in BOM (4 Nephi 8; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace. NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. This "temple" could not just disappear. NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) ANYWHERE. Impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed. NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet NOT ONE ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished. There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the BOM. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists”; 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77) According to the Smithsonian Institute, the following items (which, according to BOM, existed in the Americas b/w 600 B.C. & 421 A.D.) have absolutely no evidence for existing in the America's during that time: Silk-Alma 4:6, Nephi 13:7; Horses-Enos 1:21; Steel-Jarom 1:8, 2 Nephi 5:15,16; Iron-2 Nephi 5:15; Coins-Alma 11:5-19; Donkeys-Mosiah 5:14, 12:5; Cattle, Cow, and Oxen-Enos 1:21; Pigs-3 Nephi 7:8; Wheat-Mosiah 9:9 NO goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no chariot parts, no brass, no evidence of Kings in BOM Alma 18: 9-12; Mosiah 8:10 & 9:9; 1 Ne 18:25 Can we ignore the STRONG EVIDENCE AGAINST THE BOM and trust our FEELINGS as to it's truth even though it CONFLICTS with the EVIDENCE and the words of the BIBLE? NO! D&C Section 9:8-9 - tells us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you"
The BIBLE WARNS us against this SUBJECTIVE type of truth test. The LDS test for truth violates the Biblical test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be DECEIVED. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL." This is why the Bible frequently urges us to STUDY and MEDITATE on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS (J.S.) have gone out into the world."
BIBLE TEST: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll dated to 180 BC. Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said. Also, if they had been corrupted, why would Jesus affirm it! “I told you EVERYTHING written about ME in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46) Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Also, these scrolls are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity" and "TRUTH". 1Nephi 13:25 LDS Apologist Wayne Ham: the Isaiah scroll does not support the BOM. Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, BYU, the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Prof. Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984) Is the GOD of the LDS the same as in the BIBLE? NO! LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26) The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the gospel of JOHN. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 160 AD, around the Apostle John's time) John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google) John 1:1 Joseph Smith mistranslation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV. In order to try to make things work for LDS, J.S. added extra verses and verbiage into John 1 that were never there in any ancient texts to try to separate the idea of a trinity into 3 Gods. There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and ZERO support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted. Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17) The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous. God is much greater than the humanoid of LDS and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS. Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "MANY WOLVES in sheep's clothing" will come trying to ADD to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and added you can become a GOD. It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for Satan's lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal biblical God. God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, he tells us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version FAILS the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless. LDS FALSE Apostles: "The law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p. 110 "The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269
@@Telavian I personally disagree and look forward to living with Christ on the earth for 1000 years and then forever on the new earth and I don't believe what God has established and joined that He will separate.
The christian world of Joseph's time largely used trinitarian descriptions of God that mingle plural and singular and otherwise have unique vocabulary definitions. Think about how often LDS and mainstream christianity talk past each other while using the same words. Stuff like grace or the nature of God. To each they have their own internal logic and customary usage. For good or ill Joseph was raised in a protestant world with protestant vocabulary for God. If Joseph was the translator it would be more unusual if he did not inadvertently mingle these in his English rendition of the text. Later as a more mature adult and recognizing that the way he rendered a passage could be misleading particularly as he became more aware of certain theological differences that some get very militant about he very likely would go back and correct his rendering. I know that some of the descriptions of the translation process make it sound like word for word revelation, but it is self evident that Joseph is present in the text. His own efforts in the translation process were more involved than reading a bit of parchment with a translation already rendered. He indeed had to "study it out in his mind." For my part I view the translation process as divinely inspired but by no means a verbatim process. Imagine the bumpers of a bowling alley that keep the ball on the lane. If Joseph varied from the correct meaning (in the gutter) he would be corrected. Otherwise Joseph had some leeway in how he rendered something.
If Joseph was always teaching multiple Gods and eternal progression, like you claim, then why would William Law and the Expositor include it as a claim against him at that point? Wouldn't they have said something about it prior to that point?
@@shelly442 LDS please don't reject GOD of BIBLE & follow the FALSE GODS of Joseph Smith? Isn't your eternity worth looking for TRUTH? "Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of J.S. and LDS members. Isaiah 44:6 says, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is NO God." & "Is there any God besides me?.. I know not one". God is saying there is NOT an infinite amount of Gods, and there is none like Him. LDS teaches that there is. He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did" (King Follett Sermon) Either the BIBLE or LDS is FALSE. LDS CLAIMS the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods. This is a PROVABLY FALSE claim.
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was CORRUPTED and "plain and precious parts" were removed AFTER the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and ABOMINABLE church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Nephi claims this church was founded by the DEVIL (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively TEST the BIBLE v.s. BOM. LDS paid scholar Dan McClellan in 2024: "The data pretty firmly points in the OPPOSITE direction of a historical BOM" youtube short video "Is the BOM historical?" NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings described by J.S. (Mormon 9:32) ever found ANYWHERE. All reputable linguists have rejected it as mythical as of 2024. Professor Charles Anthon Feb. 17, 1834 NO trace of Jewish DNA found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (LDS scholar, DNA expert): “the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are NOT Jewish. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005 NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 drawings from an Egyptian papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus of scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In drawings Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do NOT match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE NO trace of “2 million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. Impossible for millions of dead warriors in metal armor to leave no trace. NO trace of the "great city Zarahemla"- impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla described in BOM (4 Nephi 8; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace. NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. This "temple" could not just disappear. NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) ANYWHERE. Impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed. NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet NOT ONE ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished. There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the BOM. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists”; 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77) According to the Smithsonian Institute, the following items (which, according to BOM, existed in the Americas b/w 600 B.C. & 421 A.D.) have absolutely no evidence for existing in the America's during that time: Silk-Alma 4:6, Nephi 13:7; Horses-Enos 1:21; Steel-Jarom 1:8, 2 Nephi 5:15,16; Iron-2 Nephi 5:15; Coins-Alma 11:5-19; Donkeys-Mosiah 5:14, 12:5; Cattle, Cow, and Oxen-Enos 1:21; Pigs-3 Nephi 7:8; Wheat-Mosiah 9:9 NO goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no chariot parts, no brass, no evidence of Kings in BOM Alma 18: 9-12; Mosiah 8:10 & 9:9; 1 Ne 18:25 Can we ignore the STRONG EVIDENCE AGAINST THE BOM and trust our FEELINGS as to it's truth even though it CONFLICTS with the EVIDENCE and the words of the BIBLE? NO! D&C Section 9:8-9 - tells us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you"
The BIBLE WARNS us against this SUBJECTIVE type of truth test. The LDS test for truth violates the Biblical test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be DECEIVED. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL." This is why the Bible frequently urges us to STUDY and MEDITATE on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS (J.S.) have gone out into the world."
BIBLE TEST: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll dated to 180 BC. Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said. Also, if they had been corrupted, why would Jesus affirm it! “I told you EVERYTHING written about ME in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46) Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Also, these scrolls are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity" and "TRUTH". 1Nephi 13:25 LDS Apologist Wayne Ham: the Isaiah scroll does not support the BOM. Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, BYU, the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Prof. Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984) Is the GOD of the LDS the same as in the BIBLE? NO! LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26) The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the gospel of JOHN. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 160 AD, around the Apostle John's time) John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google) John 1:1 Joseph Smith mistranslation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV. In order to try to make things work for LDS, J.S. added extra verses and verbiage into John 1 that were never there in any ancient texts to try to separate the idea of a trinity into 3 Gods. There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and ZERO support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted. Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17) The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous. God is much greater than the humanoid of LDS and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS. Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "MANY WOLVES in sheep's clothing" will come trying to ADD to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and added you can become a GOD. It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for Satan's lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal biblical God. God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, he tells us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version FAILS the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless. LDS FALSE Apostles: "The law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p. 110 "The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269
@@shelly442Have you read Joseph Smith's King Follet Discourse? Please compare it to Isaiah 43.10,11 Isaiah 44.6-8 Isaiah 45.5 Isaiah 9.6 John 1.1-3 John 1.14 John 8.58 Philippians 2.6-11 Revelation 22.13 Jesus didn't evolved into a God. He was God who willingly humbled Himself to come to earth for us. The Father did evolve into a God from a man on another planet. He was always God. Since this is so, Joseph Smith was a false prophet who spoke heresy! He would have been stoned in Bible times , as would have the leaders who followed him. 💔
JOSEPH SMITH's CLEARLY BELIEVED THE FATHER AND HIS SON JESUS WERE THE SAME GOD IN 1830, over a decade after his "First Vision". Every document Joseph and the church declared at that time was about a singular Godhead. The original BoM taught us the nature of God. It was all changed and his views changed years after he founded the church. Here's just the tip of the iceburg... 1 Nephi 11:18 (1830) ...Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God…” 1 Nephi 11:18 (current)…Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of Son of God…” 1 Nephi 11:20-21 (1830)…I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms. And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!...” 1 Nephi 11:20-21 (current)… I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms. And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father…” 1 Nephi 11:32 (1830)… “And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea the Everlasting God was judged of the world. 1 Nephi 11:32 (current)… “And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the Everlasting God was judged of the world…”
The only issue with that claim is that the first edition of the Book of Mormon was inaccurate to the written manuscript. The changes made for the 1837 edition cane from correcting the printing errors from thr first edition. The other only thing wrong with that claim is that people use Joseph’s first vision experience as if it contradicts the notion of a father and son existence and even appearance to him. Which it clearly doesn’t. Then the last only thing wrong with your claim is that the very Bible and Book of Mormon teach that they are separate. And finally, the only thing wrong with that claim is that early Mormon missionaries teachings attest to their belief in multiple persons in the Godhead all representing our God, which is a title of governorship over all things.
@@DoctrineofChrist This is completely false. Joseph changed the Book of Mormon in 1837 with changes that were not in the manuscript. I already showed this yet you still ignore it, why? The Bible teaches one God. How can you make such a false claim? Mormon missionaries taught a single God also. Again, how can you be so wrong? The first account of the 1st Vision wasn't even published until 1842 I believe. It had almost no bearing at all on missionary work.
@@Telavian The Bible teaches one God, which is not the same as one person. The Bible teaches two persons. A son having a father means two persons. Remember, God speaks to us in our language - son/father relationship always means and always has meant two persons. You showed from a portion of a surviving printer's manuscript, you haven't shown from the original manuscript, which no longer exists. I highly recommend you listen to John Hajicek on this topic of the printed edition of the Book of Mormon.
@@DoctrineofChrist I showed from the printers manuscript and the original. We have some of the original. You are assuming that if the Bible uses the word Son then Christ has to be a biological offspring? Why? Christ is the Lamb of God, does that mean he is part lamb?
I have enjoyed this discussion. Let me suggest that Jesus did not call himself "God" because to do so amongst the people and the law, would require death. Even though Jesus is God in the flesh he speaks of himself in another person, God the Father. In addition, everything Jesus taught was to teach the people (and us) to worship the Father in His name Jesus Christ. An example would be prayer. Jesus did not pray to himself, but it was teaching us to pray to the father. Once Jesus was resurrected, he would ascend to his kingdom once again and reign as the Father. He also tells the disciples that He (the Father) would send His Spirit to dwell in the hearts of man. Thus, there is One God as a prism and one source of light that shines through and becomes 3 shades of light. I Hope this helps understand the Trinity? It's difficult to understand, but once the Spirit testifies, it all becomes clearer. I agree with the premise of this discussion. If you do not know the nature of God. You cannot know Him the true God the Eternal Father and Jesus Christ. Its not that God will not know us. Its us not knowing Him and then we hear the words depart for I or you never knew me.
You mentioned that Joseph always taught two gods. What is the proof for this? The 1st account of the First Vision describes a single being only. This was so scandalous for some reason that Joseph Fielding Smith cut it out and hid the record. Are you saying that JFS understood the vision wrong?
@@Cali-is-top10 Have you actually read them? It says the Father is a personage of Spirit, with the Son a personage of flesh, and the Holy Ghost is the mind of God. This is not what the LDS church teaches at all.
@@nategbill7482 From Webster’s 1828 dictionary: “PER'SONAGE, noun A man or woman of distinction; as an illustrious personage 1. Exterior appearance; stature; air; as a tall personage; a stately personage 2. Character assumed. The Venetians, naturally grave, love to give in to the follies of such seasons, when disguised in a false personage 3. Character represented. Some persons must be found, already known in history, whom we may make the actors and personages of this fable.” What are you trying to say? The father and the son are characters?
Most of the sharing is on the Father and Son. It is also helpful to see in scripture that the Holy Spirit = the Spirit of Christ = the Spirit of God. One Spirit of One God. John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 1 Peter 1:11 Searching what time, and what manner of salvation the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory which should follow. 2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Philippians 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, John 14:17-18 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Ezekiel 36:26-28 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. Moroni 8:27 (8:23 LDS) But is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
@@Telavian And that is a great question! I would recommend reading 2nd Nephi 2 and doctrine and convent section 93 I think about the eternal nature of everything. You and me as well
Once a great word is proven rejected…a lesser great word will be given. This is mercy. Otherwise; accountability would quickly destroy. To prevent accountability upon that not yet ready to receive… a lesser word is given. But by Law. The greater had to first be offered. This prevents accusation towards Spirit for not offering. This prevents…I would have but it wasn’t offered! I had no choice! Spirit is to blame. Joseph is to blame. Bla bla bla. Both the lesser and greater are true. The lesser leads unto the greater. All in due season.
Those that esteem truth as fiction…do not see! Debating fiction I don’t see…. Is more appropriate. Honest debate is good. Debating to better prove all things; is a fair statement.
@ 54:35 - Prophet who fell = Younger prophet from Judah in 1 Kings 13 who disobeyed God by "following the prophet" from Bethel. He was then killed by lion. :) No better story in scripture to illustrate dangers of the false "Follow the Prophet" doctrine.
There is only one God and there will ever only be one God. Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is both the Father (because of His Spirit) and the Son (because of His flesh). The Father is the title of fullness of God’s Spirit that dwells in the Son (His flesh) and the Holy Spirit is the title of His Spirit sent to us. God the Father, in the Son, and as the Holy Spirit Mosiah 8:28-32 RLDS (15:1-5 LDS) And now Abinadi saith unto them: "I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people; And because He dwelleth in flesh, He shall be called the Son of God; And having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because He was conceived by the power of God, and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son, And They are one God, yea, the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth - And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, But suffereth Himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by His people. Luke 10:23 Inspired Version (Joseph Smith Translation) All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.
JST John 10:17 Jesus saith unto [Mary], Hold me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father; but [you, Mary] go to my brethren and say unto them, [Jesus] ascend[s] unto [Jesus’] Father, and [Mary’s] Father, and to [Jesus’] God, and [Mary’s] God. This interpretation is given by directly filling in the pronouns “I” and “you” (and possessive variants thereof) with the only two people in that verse conversing with each other, namely, Jesus and Mary. Could be a total garbage interpretation… just throwing it out there though
..so what is the purpose of all this? Either you exercise your faith, or you delineate every single point of LDS worship. Wouldn't mind you doing repairs on my house though, mate.
LDS please don't reject GOD of BIBLE & follow the FALSE GODS of Joseph Smith? Isn't your eternity worth looking for TRUTH? "Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of J.S. and LDS members. Isaiah 44:6 says, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is NO God." & "Is there any God besides me?.. I know not one". God is saying there is NOT an infinite amount of Gods, and there is none like Him. LDS teaches that there is. He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did" (King Follett Sermon) Either the BIBLE or LDS is FALSE. LDS CLAIMS the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods. This is a PROVABLY FALSE claim.
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was CORRUPTED and "plain and precious parts" were removed AFTER the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and ABOMINABLE church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Nephi claims this church was founded by the DEVIL (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively TEST the BIBLE v.s. BOM. LDS paid scholar Dan McClellan in 2024: "The data pretty firmly points in the OPPOSITE direction of a historical BOM" youtube short video "Is the BOM historical?" NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings described by J.S. (Mormon 9:32) ever found ANYWHERE. All reputable linguists have rejected it as mythical as of 2024. Professor Charles Anthon Feb. 17, 1834 NO trace of Jewish DNA found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (LDS scholar, DNA expert): “the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are NOT Jewish. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005 NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 drawings from an Egyptian papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus of scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In drawings Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do NOT match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE NO trace of “2 million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. Impossible for millions of dead warriors in metal armor to leave no trace. NO trace of the "great city Zarahemla"- impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla described in BOM (4 Nephi 8; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace. NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. This "temple" could not just disappear. NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) ANYWHERE. Impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed. NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet NOT ONE ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished. There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the BOM. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists”; 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77) According to the Smithsonian Institute, the following items (which, according to BOM, existed in the Americas b/w 600 B.C. & 421 A.D.) have absolutely no evidence for existing in the America's during that time: Silk-Alma 4:6, Nephi 13:7; Horses-Enos 1:21; Steel-Jarom 1:8, 2 Nephi 5:15,16; Iron-2 Nephi 5:15; Coins-Alma 11:5-19; Donkeys-Mosiah 5:14, 12:5; Cattle, Cow, and Oxen-Enos 1:21; Pigs-3 Nephi 7:8; Wheat-Mosiah 9:9 NO goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no chariot parts, no brass, no evidence of Kings in BOM Alma 18: 9-12; Mosiah 8:10 & 9:9; 1 Ne 18:25 Can we ignore the STRONG EVIDENCE AGAINST THE BOM and trust our FEELINGS as to it's truth even though it CONFLICTS with the EVIDENCE and the words of the BIBLE? NO! D&C Section 9:8-9 - tells us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you"
The BIBLE WARNS us against this SUBJECTIVE type of truth test. The LDS test for truth violates the Biblical test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be DECEIVED. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL." This is why the Bible frequently urges us to STUDY and MEDITATE on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS (J.S.) have gone out into the world."
BIBLE TEST: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll dated to 180 BC. Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said. Also, if they had been corrupted, why would Jesus affirm it! “I told you EVERYTHING written about ME in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46) Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Also, these scrolls are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity" and "TRUTH". 1Nephi 13:25 LDS Apologist Wayne Ham: the Isaiah scroll does not support the BOM. Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, BYU, the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Prof. Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984) Is the GOD of the LDS the same as in the BIBLE? NO! LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26) The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the gospel of JOHN. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 160 AD, around the Apostle John's time) John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google) John 1:1 Joseph Smith mistranslation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV. In order to try to make things work for LDS, J.S. added extra verses and verbiage into John 1 that were never there in any ancient texts to try to separate the idea of a trinity into 3 Gods. There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and ZERO support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted. Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17) The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous. God is much greater than the humanoid of LDS and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS. Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "MANY WOLVES in sheep's clothing" will come trying to ADD to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and added you can become a GOD. It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for Satan's lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal biblical God. God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, he tells us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version FAILS the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless. LDS FALSE Apostles: "The law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p. 110 "The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269
I personally disagree with both points. The Book of Mormon is clear that "God Himself" came down. Joseph changed a revelation to give himself more gifts. This is strange. The claim was made that he could do it because he received it. This is strange. Joseph was told temporal concerns were not his prerogative, yet that is almost all of what he did. Joseph received false revelations (Copyright, KSS, Co50), yet we assume everything he did is true. This is strange. We should interpret the Nauvoo teachings of Joseph, the masonic endowment, the unscriptural ordinances, and the new doctrines as what they really are. There is no scriptural evidence for any of them except if we squint really hard and ignore almost everything. Instead of seeing things for what they really are, then most people today just blame it on Brigham somehow. Why would the Nauvoo doctrines be given to them since they rejected everything previously and were even told the fulness of the priesthood was removed. This is so strange to think "further light and truth" when they rejected everything previously and went after false gods. This video is assuming the later teachings of Joseph are correct, and then interpreting the Book of Mormon against that assumption. I understand the need to have a perfectly clean Joseph, however this is not how things should work. The KFD is an example of a prophet whose eyes have been covered. 2 Nephi 27:5
@@erikpeoples8041 This doesn't make sense. If Abraham was a god with perfect knowledge and knew that he had to sacrifice Isaac to progress then it would be a similar comparison.
@@Telavian I believe the scriptures are clear that God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ are two seperate God's with the same purpose. God the Father is our spirit Father and God the Son becomes our father as we use His atonement and are adopted into this family clean and free from sin.
@@allthingsarepossiblethruchrist What is the clearest scripture for you? I find it hard to see them as separate when we have scriptures like "God Himself shall come down", or "The Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father".
You guys can’t have it both ways. Those who testified under oath of Joseph Smith’s monogamy also testified under oath (on the very same day btw) that the King Follett discourse did not mention the plurality of gods. So if they were honest, Wilford’s lone recording would be in alignment (who was also present when they were testifying, I might add, and never refuted them on the matter).
If you’re going with a belief that they were lying about KFD, then no sense in believing them about their testimony that Joseph was monogamous.
So far, I'm thinking He began as the Father, became also the Son by becoming Mary's son. He's the Son created by the Father's power, therefore He is the Father's son. Could the Father's power be another name for a shared spirit, that is known as the Holy Spirit? The Spirit is able to be spread amongst others, shared.
Still watching and have no idea if I'm anywhere near right. 1:04:54
Excellent, a well explained and supported understanding of who Jesus Christ is and who we worship. I’m a bit perplexed why so many in our circles are questioning this currently, but it’s probably part of their deconstruction. It’s difficult to find the bedrock of truth (who Jesus is) - but you both clearly explained scripturally who He is and who we worship. What a beautiful plan.
I believe that one reason many reject the plurality of Gods is that without MMPs, it doesn’t work. Many reject MMPs because of the recent messes in the LDS church that include people who twisted the doctrine in a huge way, seeking power and gain.
That’s a good summary I think.
There is an issue of semantics here. Easy fix: Look up the definition of “personage” in the 1828 Webster’s dictionary.
Excellent discussion! Thanks for clarifying this issue using the scriptures.
Glad it was helpful!
Tahnk you, thank you, such a whirlwind concept, very well explained. I think I am now settled, until I am not..., but I think I am.
There is only one God and there will ever only be one God. Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is both the Father (because of His Spirit) and the Son (because of His flesh). The Father is the title of fullness of God’s Spirit that dwells in the Son (His flesh) and the Holy Spirit is the title of His Spirit sent to us.
God the Father, in the Son, and as the Holy Spirit
God is a Spirit (John 4:24).
He is invisible (1 Tim 1:17, Col 1:15).
No man has seen God at any time (John 1:18).
Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15).
Anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Father (John 14:9
The Father is in Jesus (John 14:10)
The Son is the everlasting Father and the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6)
The Word is God (John 1:1)
The Word was made flesh (John 1:14)
The fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus (Col 2:9-10)
Jesus Christ is the great God and our Savior (Titus 2:13)
The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost are One (1 John 5:7)
Mosiah 8:28-32 RLDS (15:1-5 LDS)
And now Abinadi saith unto them: "I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people; And because He dwelleth in flesh, He shall be called the Son of God; And having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because He was conceived by the power of God, and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son, And They are one God, yea, the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth - And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, But suffereth Himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by His people.
Luke 10:23 Inspired Version (Joseph Smith Translation)
All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.
Best countdown I've seen!
The issue with this is that there is no room for heavenly mother here and by extension, women in the plan of salvation. Joseph originally taught one God.
Every parent I know would rather take the place of their child than watch their child suffer. Believing God and Jesus to be separate beings definitely makes it harder to respect a Heavenly Father who would rather sacrifice his own son for some greater purpose than go in his place.
Performing that sacrifice is what perfects a Son into becoming a Father. That was a major point in the King Follett discourse as well as the scriptures themselves.
@@drmount The problem is the KFD disagrees with many of the teachings of the church at the time. It was almost certainly false doctrine.
So when Jesus tells us to liken heaven unto a king making marriage for his son, this analogy is so victimizing to you that your reply is that he didn't mention any queen, so therefor there are no women in heaven and no room for any heavenly mother in this scenario, so he must mean the king is the same being as the son?
Why did Jesus quote David's dream of seeing TWO Lords speaking to each other? No mention of any queen. Are you throwing out the New Testament?
And when Jesus calls himself the true vine and the father the husbandman, this analogy doesn't mention women so he must mean the vine and husbandman are the same thing?
I’m not sure how it doesn’t make room for a heavenly mother - you can’t have a father and son without a mother also.
And no son can be a father to himself. He must have his own parents.
As far as the sacrifice goes, Jesus is the God of this creation. He’s our God. He created us and he suffered and died and his Father allowed it because Jesus was a grown Man (capital M), capable of making his own decisions, capable of making his own sacrifices. He chose it. He did it.
That’s how I understand it anyway. And it completely satisfies the aspect of how much it would pain a father to see it happen.
Agree, and there is no heavenly mother....which is why none is mentioned in the scriptures (besides the pagan false worship of Queen of Heaven).
There is only one God and there will ever only be one God. Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is both the Father (because of His Spirit) and the Son (because of His flesh). The Father is the title of fullness of God’s Spirit that dwells in the Son (His flesh) and the Holy Spirit is the title of His Spirit sent to us.
God the Father, in the Son, and as the Holy Spirit
Mosiah 8:28-32 RLDS (15:1-5 LDS)
And now Abinadi saith unto them: "I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people; And because He dwelleth in flesh, He shall be called the Son of God; And having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because He was conceived by the power of God, and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son, And They are one God, yea, the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth - And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, But suffereth Himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by His people.
You mentioned that Joseph could change the revelations because he received them. How does this work?
In what other context would a boss allow a subordinate to change the instructions and be fine with it?
How would we know a true change vs a false change? Is God okay with all changes?
JOSEPH SMITH NEVER CHANGED REVALATIONS NOR VISIONS.❤❤
@@shelly442 He changed a lot of them actually.
Only the revelator in question knows what the original revelation was. There are various scenarios where what goes down on paper or gets printed ends up being something less than the pure meaning of the original thing. It is reasonable that the revelator should have leeway to correct something that isn't faithful to the original intent. But he's the only one that could do that, as he's the only one that was witness to the original experience from whence the written revelation came.
@@ssuede7 Yes, but how much leeway? The church essentially gave Joseph unlimited leeway and it cost them dearly.
A special conference was held at Nauvoo, convening on April 6, 1844. The business done was not of special historical importance, being principally devoted to instruction.
It was at this conference that Joseph Smith preached the funeral sermon of King Follett. A synopsis of this sermon was published in the Times and Seasons in August, 1844. We do not feel justified in presenting this synopsis as containing the teachings of Joseph Smith, for several reasons. First: The sermon was said to be a very long one, while this extract covers less than five pages of the Times and Seasons, and can leisurely be read in about twenty-five minutes. One cannot get the true sense of a discourse from so meager an extract. Second: It was not found in print until after Joseph's death, and hence was not subjected to his inspection as published. Third: Its style and diction, as well as its doctrinal teachings, differ so widely from the productions of Joseph Smith as found elsewhere that it suggests suspicion as to its genuineness. Fourth: We have no evidence that a verbatim report was made when delivered, and hence it must have been written from memory, or at best from notes. So without indorsing [endorsing] or condemning we decline to present it as historically correct.
RLDS History of Church - vol 2 pg 734
The first point is a logical fallacy.
The second point was also a logical fallacy.
Third point is inaccurate because most of the doctrine in there was repeated or touched on in the sermon at the grove as well as revelations in the D&C.
Fourth point - without endorsing OR CONDEMNING - they clearly knew they didn’t have the evidence to condemn the sermon, which is what you continuously try to do.
@@DoctrineofChrist “What About The King Follett Funeral Sermon?
The report of this sermon by Joseph Smith has long been the source of controversy for two reasons. The first has to do with Joseph purportedly teaching the concept of many Gods, as the following extract demonstrates:
You have got to learn how to be gods yourselves; to be kings and priests to god, the same as all Gods have done; by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as doth those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. (Times and Seasons, Vol. V, p. 614)
There are several problems surrounding this sermon. The first is that the excerpt just quoted is contrary to the established word of God in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and the revelations approved by the church during the life of Joseph Smith. The second problem has to do with when the sermon was first published. Joseph was to have preached this sermon on April 7, 1844. Joseph Smith was killed in June of 1844, and the first printing of this sermon occurred in August of 1844, two months after Joseph’s death. As a result, he was not in a position to either affirm or deny its contents. The third problem centers around a statement found in the history as recorded by the Utah Church which states:
It must be remembered that the above report of the Prophet’s remarks, as also the report of the King Follett sermon (preached in April, 1844, and which will appear in Volume V of this history)...were reported in long hand and from memory, so that they are very likely to contain inaccuracies and convey wrong impressions. (History of the Church, Vol. IV, p.556)
The fourth and final problem has to do with the testimony of James Whitehead, Joseph Smith’s personal secretary who was in the congregation when this sermon was preached. He testified that:
I heard what is known as the "King Follett" sermon preached. That sermon was published. Joseph Smith did not in that sermon teach the plurality of gods. (Complainant’s Abstract of Pleading and Evidence, Herald Publishing House, Lamoni, IA, 1893, p. 37)
When all of this information regarding the King Follett is considered, it would be suspect at best to consider this an authoritative teaching of Joseph Smith.”
I just checked the printer's manuscript and the original manuscript for the Book of Mormon.
The 1837 changes Joseph did to the Book of Mormon are not there.
The JSP doesn't seem to have all the original so I checked 1 Nephi 11:18, which is top of page 17 in original. Joseph added "the Son of" when it wasn't in original or printers manuscript. This is the same with 1 Nephi 11:21 which is the same page.
This is the same with the printers manuscript for 1 Nephi 13:40. Bottom of page 16 and top of 17.
Why would Joseph obscure this in 1837?
The first edition contained numerous aberrations that Joseph and Oliver spent a lot of time correcting. Subsequent printings under Joseph's supervision were deemed more faithful than the first edition.
@@ssuede7 Specifically though, Joseph added "son of" to a few places in the 1837 update. This text was not in the original at all.
This all coincides with Joseph starting to teach them as separate beings. Prior to this they were a single individual. 1836 was a pivotal year for the church in numerous ways, both good and bad.
@@Telavian I don't believe that Joseph taught God as separate beings. I believe those accounts are from other individuals...not Joseph.
Luke 10:23 Inspired Version (Joseph Smith Translation)
All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.
@@nategbill7482 Yes, today whatever we don't like about Joseph we attribute it to someone else.
@@Telavian Blaming Joseph for things that others did is easy and lazy. That is what Brigham and his secret combination gang did a lot.
Thank you for this video. What you said made sense to me. I know that everyone is on their own journey, and I respect others' journeys, especially as they are sincerely seeking Jesus and truth. For me, I have pondered the Father and the Son being the same person, but it doesn't set right with me. Maybe I have more to learn, but for now, my answer is that they are separate. I also love that you defended Joseph Smith. I know he wasn't perfect, he was a man, yet I believe that we can't judge his relationship with God/Jesus and the angels that appeared to him. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Was he a fallen prophet? No, I don't believe so. I believe that he did his best to always learn from God and serve Him to the end.
How are these not clear?
Alma 8 79-82, 104 RLDS (11:26-29 LDS)
And Zeezrom saith unto him: "Thou sayest there is a true and a living God?"
And Amulek saith: "Yea, there is a true and a living God."
Now Zeezrom saith: "Is there more than one God?"
And he answered: "No."
Ether 4:12
For behold, I Am the Father; I Am the light and the life and the truth of the world. - Jesus Christ
Baruch the scribe rewrote that upon the scroll that was destroyed by King Jehoiakim …. And ADDED many LIKE WORDS unto it. Jeremiah 36:32. Word can be both changed or clarified according as Spirit sees fit for spiritual purposes.
I decided to take a stab at explaining how I've come to understand the verse in Mosiah 15:3
"The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and the Son.
Perhaps the key words here are CONCEPTION and FLESH."
Christ is described as being the Father elsewhere in scripture by virtue of His role in the creation and fulfillment of the atonement and resurrection. Through the atonement and resurrection, Christ became the Eternal Father of the souls of those who would believe in Him.
Ether 3: 14
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
While it isn't completely spelled out, I wonder if because he was conceived by the power of God, there was a very tangible part of him that was the seed of God or God's DNA, if you will. This unique conception by the "power of God", enabled Christ to inherit every characteristic and traits of the Father through grace and obedience to the will of the Father. Add to that the total "agreement" with the mind of God or Holy Spirit and the agreement or oneness made them so alike, that he possessed everything God the Father possesses - including the title of Eternal Father.
Conversation between Zeezrom and Amulek:
Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last; and he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that have eternal life, and salvation cometh unto none else.
In John 14:7-9, Christ emphasizes the point of God the Father and God the Son's identical characteristics when he effectively said, "if you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
I envision this "sameness" is both in their physical form as well as their character, thoughts and actions. They both are the perfect representation of Truth & Light personified. They are in TOTAL agreement down to their appearance thanks to Christ being conceived by God's power.
Another way Christ is the Father is through the creation of heaven and earth. He literally created the heavens and the earth - again, through the power and under the direction of God the Father.
Thus, Christ as prophesied in Mosiah 3:7
"And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary."
Now, to explain the 2nd half of how Christ is the Son because of the flesh. I think this is much easier to understand. The verse above is the big clue.
The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and the Son.
Because Christ took upon Him a mortal body in order to complete His mission and inherit all of God's glory, He was conceived by the power of God, but he had a mortal mother in the virgin Mary. He is the Son of God the Father in the flesh. That doesn't present too much confusion I don't think.
That's how I understand it currently at least.
Thanks for your insights!
Thanks for spelling out that detail. I would agree with that take 100%.
Question does any other restoration branch besides LDS based have the King Follett discourse?
Great question.
RESTORED LDS IS NOT TRUE LDS DOCTRINE AT ALL NOTHING ABOUT IT IS TRUE IT IS MAN MADE PERVERTED AND A SIN TO GOD.😮😢
The Father and the Son are two titles which Christ has within the Everlasting Covenant.
Jesus is CALLED the Son of God, but he is also CALLED the Father. But, there is also the Father, the being to whom the Son subjects his will.
Mosiah 15:2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be CALLED the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son--
Mosiah 15:3 The Father, BECAUSE he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus BECOMING the Father and Son--
Mosiah 15:4 And THEY are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
Mosiah 15:5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;
D&C 93:2 And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;
D&C 93:3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one--
D&C 93:4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.
D&C 93:5 I was in the world and received of my Father, and the works of him were plainly manifest.
D&C 93:14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.
D&C 93:15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.
D&C 93:16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;
D&C 93:17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.
Wow this is suddenly making so much sense. Thank you for this breakdown!!!
You mentioned that a Heavenly Father and a Mother create a Son who performs the Atonement. Is that the only purpose for an eternal marriage? Do they create through intercourse all the other spirit children? When they are done creating children then what is the purpose of their marriage for the rest of eternity?
Heavenly father or GOD HAS MARY A MORTAL WOMAN ABOUT 16 YRS OLD CONCIVED BY THE SPIRIT SHE GIVES BIRTH TO THE BABY JESUS CHRIST JOSEPH A STRANGER TO MARY WAS VISITED BY AN ANGEL TO GO TO MARY AND TAKE HER AS HIS WIFE AND BE MORTAL FATHER OF JESUS UNTIL JESUS IS OF AGE HE LEAVES AT 12 TO DO HIS MINSTERY . ADAM AN EVE HAVE CHILDREN NOT IN 9 MONS THEY PROCREATE D THE EARTH THEIR CHILDREN AN THEIR CHILDREN ETC.STILL BABIES BORN TODAY WE ALL CAME FROM ADAM AN EVE BUT EVERY CHILD BORN WAS SPILPT SEED NOT BLOOD BROTHERS SISTERS ❤❤
LDS please don't reject GOD of BIBLE & follow the FALSE GODS of Joseph Smith?
Isn't your eternity worth looking for TRUTH?
"Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of J.S. and LDS members.
Isaiah 44:6 says, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is NO God." & "Is there any God besides me?.. I know not one". God is saying there is NOT an infinite amount of Gods, and there is none like Him. LDS teaches that there is. He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did" (King Follett Sermon) Either the BIBLE or LDS is FALSE.
LDS CLAIMS the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods. This is a PROVABLY FALSE claim.
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was CORRUPTED and "plain and precious parts" were removed AFTER the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and ABOMINABLE church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Nephi claims this church was founded by the DEVIL (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively TEST the BIBLE v.s. BOM.
LDS paid scholar Dan McClellan in 2024: "The data pretty firmly points in the OPPOSITE direction of a historical BOM" youtube short video "Is the BOM historical?"
NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings described by J.S. (Mormon 9:32) ever found ANYWHERE. All reputable linguists have rejected it as mythical as of 2024. Professor Charles Anthon Feb. 17, 1834
NO trace of Jewish DNA found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (LDS scholar, DNA expert): “the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are NOT Jewish. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005
NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 drawings from an Egyptian papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus of scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In drawings Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do NOT match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE
NO trace of “2 million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. Impossible for millions of dead warriors in metal armor to leave no trace.
NO trace of the "great city Zarahemla"- impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla described in BOM (4 Nephi 8; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace.
NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. This "temple" could not just disappear.
NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) ANYWHERE. Impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed.
NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet NOT ONE ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished.
There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the BOM. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists”; 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77)
According to the Smithsonian Institute, the following items (which, according to BOM, existed in the Americas b/w 600 B.C. & 421 A.D.) have absolutely no evidence for existing in the America's during that time: Silk-Alma 4:6, Nephi 13:7; Horses-Enos 1:21; Steel-Jarom 1:8, 2 Nephi 5:15,16; Iron-2 Nephi 5:15; Coins-Alma 11:5-19; Donkeys-Mosiah 5:14, 12:5; Cattle, Cow, and Oxen-Enos 1:21; Pigs-3 Nephi 7:8; Wheat-Mosiah 9:9
NO goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no chariot parts, no brass, no evidence of Kings in BOM Alma 18: 9-12; Mosiah 8:10 & 9:9; 1 Ne 18:25
Can we ignore the STRONG EVIDENCE AGAINST THE BOM and trust our FEELINGS as to it's truth even though it CONFLICTS with the EVIDENCE and the words of the BIBLE? NO!
D&C Section 9:8-9 - tells us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you"
The BIBLE WARNS us against this SUBJECTIVE type of truth test. The LDS test for truth violates the Biblical test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be DECEIVED. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL."
This is why the Bible frequently urges us to STUDY and MEDITATE on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS (J.S.) have gone out into the world."
BIBLE TEST: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll dated to 180 BC.
Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said.
Also, if they had been corrupted, why would Jesus affirm it! “I told you EVERYTHING written about ME in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46)
Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Also, these scrolls are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity" and "TRUTH". 1Nephi 13:25
LDS Apologist Wayne Ham: the Isaiah scroll does not support the BOM. Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, BYU, the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Prof. Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984)
Is the GOD of the LDS the same as in the BIBLE? NO! LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26)
The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the gospel of JOHN. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 160 AD, around the Apostle John's time)
John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google)
John 1:1 Joseph Smith mistranslation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV. In order to try to make things work for LDS, J.S. added extra verses and verbiage into John 1 that were never there in any ancient texts to try to separate the idea of a trinity into 3 Gods.
There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and ZERO support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted.
Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17)
The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous.
God is much greater than the humanoid of LDS and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS.
Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "MANY WOLVES in sheep's clothing" will come trying to ADD to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and added you can become a GOD.
It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for Satan's lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal biblical God.
God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, he tells us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version FAILS the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless.
LDS FALSE Apostles: "The law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p. 110
"The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269
There can be no answer because there is no Heavenly Mother in scripture...because there is no Heavenly Mother.
@@nategbill7482 I personally think biological attributes like male/female are not needed after this life.
@@Telavian I personally disagree and look forward to living with Christ on the earth for 1000 years and then forever on the new earth and I don't believe what God has established and joined that He will separate.
The christian world of Joseph's time largely used trinitarian descriptions of God that mingle plural and singular and otherwise have unique vocabulary definitions. Think about how often LDS and mainstream christianity talk past each other while using the same words. Stuff like grace or the nature of God. To each they have their own internal logic and customary usage. For good or ill Joseph was raised in a protestant world with protestant vocabulary for God. If Joseph was the translator it would be more unusual if he did not inadvertently mingle these in his English rendition of the text. Later as a more mature adult and recognizing that the way he rendered a passage could be misleading particularly as he became more aware of certain theological differences that some get very militant about he very likely would go back and correct his rendering.
I know that some of the descriptions of the translation process make it sound like word for word revelation, but it is self evident that Joseph is present in the text. His own efforts in the translation process were more involved than reading a bit of parchment with a translation already rendered. He indeed had to "study it out in his mind." For my part I view the translation process as divinely inspired but by no means a verbatim process. Imagine the bumpers of a bowling alley that keep the ball on the lane. If Joseph varied from the correct meaning (in the gutter) he would be corrected. Otherwise Joseph had some leeway in how he rendered something.
If Joseph was always teaching multiple Gods and eternal progression, like you claim, then why would William Law and the Expositor include it as a claim against him at that point?
Wouldn't they have said something about it prior to that point?
He taught one GOD THE SON JESUS CHRIST THE HOLY GHOST ❤❤
@@shelly442 LDS please don't reject GOD of BIBLE & follow the FALSE GODS of Joseph Smith?
Isn't your eternity worth looking for TRUTH?
"Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of J.S. and LDS members.
Isaiah 44:6 says, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is NO God." & "Is there any God besides me?.. I know not one". God is saying there is NOT an infinite amount of Gods, and there is none like Him. LDS teaches that there is. He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did" (King Follett Sermon) Either the BIBLE or LDS is FALSE.
LDS CLAIMS the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods. This is a PROVABLY FALSE claim.
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was CORRUPTED and "plain and precious parts" were removed AFTER the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and ABOMINABLE church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Nephi claims this church was founded by the DEVIL (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively TEST the BIBLE v.s. BOM.
LDS paid scholar Dan McClellan in 2024: "The data pretty firmly points in the OPPOSITE direction of a historical BOM" youtube short video "Is the BOM historical?"
NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings described by J.S. (Mormon 9:32) ever found ANYWHERE. All reputable linguists have rejected it as mythical as of 2024. Professor Charles Anthon Feb. 17, 1834
NO trace of Jewish DNA found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (LDS scholar, DNA expert): “the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are NOT Jewish. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005
NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 drawings from an Egyptian papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus of scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In drawings Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do NOT match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE
NO trace of “2 million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. Impossible for millions of dead warriors in metal armor to leave no trace.
NO trace of the "great city Zarahemla"- impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla described in BOM (4 Nephi 8; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace.
NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. This "temple" could not just disappear.
NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) ANYWHERE. Impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed.
NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet NOT ONE ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished.
There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the BOM. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists”; 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77)
According to the Smithsonian Institute, the following items (which, according to BOM, existed in the Americas b/w 600 B.C. & 421 A.D.) have absolutely no evidence for existing in the America's during that time: Silk-Alma 4:6, Nephi 13:7; Horses-Enos 1:21; Steel-Jarom 1:8, 2 Nephi 5:15,16; Iron-2 Nephi 5:15; Coins-Alma 11:5-19; Donkeys-Mosiah 5:14, 12:5; Cattle, Cow, and Oxen-Enos 1:21; Pigs-3 Nephi 7:8; Wheat-Mosiah 9:9
NO goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no chariot parts, no brass, no evidence of Kings in BOM Alma 18: 9-12; Mosiah 8:10 & 9:9; 1 Ne 18:25
Can we ignore the STRONG EVIDENCE AGAINST THE BOM and trust our FEELINGS as to it's truth even though it CONFLICTS with the EVIDENCE and the words of the BIBLE? NO!
D&C Section 9:8-9 - tells us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you"
The BIBLE WARNS us against this SUBJECTIVE type of truth test. The LDS test for truth violates the Biblical test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be DECEIVED. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL."
This is why the Bible frequently urges us to STUDY and MEDITATE on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS (J.S.) have gone out into the world."
BIBLE TEST: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll dated to 180 BC.
Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said.
Also, if they had been corrupted, why would Jesus affirm it! “I told you EVERYTHING written about ME in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46)
Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Also, these scrolls are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity" and "TRUTH". 1Nephi 13:25
LDS Apologist Wayne Ham: the Isaiah scroll does not support the BOM. Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, BYU, the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Prof. Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984)
Is the GOD of the LDS the same as in the BIBLE? NO! LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26)
The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the gospel of JOHN. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 160 AD, around the Apostle John's time)
John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google)
John 1:1 Joseph Smith mistranslation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV. In order to try to make things work for LDS, J.S. added extra verses and verbiage into John 1 that were never there in any ancient texts to try to separate the idea of a trinity into 3 Gods.
There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and ZERO support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted.
Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17)
The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous.
God is much greater than the humanoid of LDS and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS.
Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "MANY WOLVES in sheep's clothing" will come trying to ADD to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and added you can become a GOD.
It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for Satan's lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal biblical God.
God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, he tells us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version FAILS the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless.
LDS FALSE Apostles: "The law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p. 110
"The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269
@@shelly442 That's the revised teaching. Not the original. Brigham Young taught at general conference that Adam was our Father Elohim.
@@shelly442Have you read Joseph Smith's King Follet Discourse? Please compare it to Isaiah 43.10,11
Isaiah 44.6-8
Isaiah 45.5
Isaiah 9.6
John 1.1-3
John 1.14
John 8.58
Philippians 2.6-11
Revelation 22.13
Jesus didn't evolved into a God. He was God who willingly humbled Himself to come to earth for us. The Father did evolve into a God from a man on another planet. He was always God. Since this is so, Joseph Smith was a false prophet who spoke heresy!
He would have been stoned in Bible times , as would have the leaders who followed him. 💔
Joseph Smith did not comprehend God. He didn't know whether he was going or coming. False prophet. 💔
JOSEPH SMITH's CLEARLY BELIEVED THE FATHER AND HIS SON JESUS WERE THE SAME GOD IN 1830, over a decade after his "First Vision". Every document Joseph and the church declared at that time was about a singular Godhead. The original BoM taught us the nature of God. It was all changed and his views changed years after he founded the church. Here's just the tip of the iceburg...
1 Nephi 11:18 (1830) ...Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God…”
1 Nephi 11:18 (current)…Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of Son of God…”
1 Nephi 11:20-21 (1830)…I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms. And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!...”
1 Nephi 11:20-21 (current)… I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms. And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father…”
1 Nephi 11:32 (1830)… “And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea the Everlasting God was judged of the world.
1 Nephi 11:32 (current)… “And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the Everlasting God was judged of the world…”
The only issue with that claim is that the first edition of the Book of Mormon was inaccurate to the written manuscript. The changes made for the 1837 edition cane from correcting the printing errors from thr first edition.
The other only thing wrong with that claim is that people use Joseph’s first vision experience as if it contradicts the notion of a father and son existence and even appearance to him. Which it clearly doesn’t.
Then the last only thing wrong with your claim is that the very Bible and Book of Mormon teach that they are separate.
And finally, the only thing wrong with that claim is that early Mormon missionaries teachings attest to their belief in multiple persons in the Godhead all representing our God, which is a title of governorship over all things.
@@DoctrineofChrist This is completely false. Joseph changed the Book of Mormon in 1837 with changes that were not in the manuscript. I already showed this yet you still ignore it, why?
The Bible teaches one God. How can you make such a false claim?
Mormon missionaries taught a single God also. Again, how can you be so wrong? The first account of the 1st Vision wasn't even published until 1842 I believe. It had almost no bearing at all on missionary work.
@@Telavian The Bible teaches one God, which is not the same as one person. The Bible teaches two persons. A son having a father means two persons. Remember, God speaks to us in our language - son/father relationship always means and always has meant two persons.
You showed from a portion of a surviving printer's manuscript, you haven't shown from the original manuscript, which no longer exists. I highly recommend you listen to John Hajicek on this topic of the printed edition of the Book of Mormon.
@@DoctrineofChrist I showed from the printers manuscript and the original. We have some of the original.
You are assuming that if the Bible uses the word Son then Christ has to be a biological offspring? Why? Christ is the Lamb of God, does that mean he is part lamb?
Jesus is the Father of the redeemed-all who have passed through the fire and not been burned.
That is what I think it’s referring to.
Great job.
I have enjoyed this discussion. Let me suggest that Jesus did not call himself "God" because to do so amongst the people and the law, would require death. Even though Jesus is God in the flesh he speaks of himself in another person, God the Father. In addition, everything Jesus taught was to teach the people (and us) to worship the Father in His name Jesus Christ. An example would be prayer. Jesus did not pray to himself, but it was teaching us to pray to the father. Once Jesus was resurrected, he would ascend to his kingdom once again and reign as the Father. He also tells the disciples that He (the Father) would send His Spirit to dwell in the hearts of man. Thus, there is One God as a prism and one source of light that shines through and becomes 3 shades of light. I Hope this helps understand the Trinity? It's difficult to understand, but once the Spirit testifies, it all becomes clearer.
I agree with the premise of this discussion. If you do not know the nature of God. You cannot know Him the true God the Eternal Father and Jesus Christ. Its not that God will not know us. Its us not knowing Him and then we hear the words depart for I or you never knew me.
You mentioned that Joseph always taught two gods. What is the proof for this? The 1st account of the First Vision describes a single being only. This was so scandalous for some reason that Joseph Fielding Smith cut it out and hid the record.
Are you saying that JFS understood the vision wrong?
See the lectures on faith. Vouched for by Joseph and plainly says two personages in the godhead.
@@Cali-is-top10 Have you actually read them? It says the Father is a personage of Spirit, with the Son a personage of flesh, and the Holy Ghost is the mind of God.
This is not what the LDS church teaches at all.
@@Telavian Yes, I’ve read them…
I didn’t say that the LDS church taught that. I mean, they took the lectures on faith out of the canon.
@@Cali-is-top10 Look at the definition of "personage" in the 1828 Webster's dictionary. It can mean a character assumed or character represented.
@@nategbill7482 From Webster’s 1828 dictionary:
“PER'SONAGE, noun A man or woman of distinction; as an illustrious personage
1. Exterior appearance; stature; air; as a tall personage; a stately personage
2. Character assumed.
The Venetians, naturally grave, love to give in to the follies of such seasons, when disguised in a false personage
3. Character represented.
Some persons must be found, already known in history, whom we may make the actors and personages of this fable.”
What are you trying to say?
The father and the son are characters?
Most of the sharing is on the Father and Son. It is also helpful to see in scripture that the Holy Spirit = the Spirit of Christ = the Spirit of God. One Spirit of One God.
John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Romans 8:9-10
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
1 Peter 1:11
Searching what time, and what manner of salvation the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory which should follow.
2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Philippians 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
John 14:17-18
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Ezekiel 36:26-28
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Moroni 8:27 (8:23 LDS) But is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
Are "awakened Mormons" just protestants now?
this is so weird. The Idea that Just one being exist creates a God that created evil. These people are following the doctrine of Constantine.
How does this work either way? With a single God or multiple gods then we still have evil. I am confused.
Wrong
@@Telavian And that is a great question! I would recommend reading 2nd Nephi 2 and doctrine and convent section 93 I think about the eternal nature of everything. You and me as well
@@shelly442 What part? that's when the idea of the Trinity came into being was with Constantine
@@clearstonewindows It did not. Read the church fathers and stop watching tiktok
Once a great word is proven rejected…a lesser great word will be given. This is mercy. Otherwise; accountability would quickly destroy. To prevent accountability upon that not yet ready to receive… a lesser word is given. But by Law. The greater had to first be offered. This prevents accusation towards Spirit for not offering. This prevents…I would have but it wasn’t offered! I had no choice! Spirit is to blame. Joseph is to blame. Bla bla bla. Both the lesser and greater are true. The lesser leads unto the greater. All in due season.
Debating fiction I see?
Is life fiction?
@@DoctrineofChrist What is life?
Those that esteem truth as fiction…do not see! Debating fiction I don’t see…. Is more appropriate. Honest debate is good. Debating to better prove all things; is a fair statement.
OOOOOOH SNAP!!!!
@ 54:35 - Prophet who fell = Younger prophet from Judah in 1 Kings 13 who disobeyed God by "following the prophet" from Bethel. He was then killed by lion. :) No better story in scripture to illustrate dangers of the false "Follow the Prophet" doctrine.
There is only one God and there will ever only be one God. Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is both the Father (because of His Spirit) and the Son (because of His flesh). The Father is the title of fullness of God’s Spirit that dwells in the Son (His flesh) and the Holy Spirit is the title of His Spirit sent to us.
God the Father, in the Son, and as the Holy Spirit
Mosiah 8:28-32 RLDS (15:1-5 LDS)
And now Abinadi saith unto them: "I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people; And because He dwelleth in flesh, He shall be called the Son of God; And having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because He was conceived by the power of God, and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son, And They are one God, yea, the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth - And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, But suffereth Himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by His people.
Luke 10:23 Inspired Version (Joseph Smith Translation)
All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.
JST John 10:17 Jesus saith unto [Mary], Hold me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father; but [you, Mary] go to my brethren and say unto them, [Jesus] ascend[s] unto [Jesus’] Father, and [Mary’s] Father, and to [Jesus’] God, and [Mary’s] God.
This interpretation is given by directly filling in the pronouns “I” and “you” (and possessive variants thereof) with the only two people in that verse conversing with each other, namely, Jesus and Mary.
Could be a total garbage interpretation… just throwing it out there though
I think it’s an important verse. Not sure how your interpretation wouldn’t be the only one.
..so what is the purpose of all this? Either you exercise your faith, or you delineate every single point of LDS worship. Wouldn't mind you doing repairs on my house though, mate.
LDS please don't reject GOD of BIBLE & follow the FALSE GODS of Joseph Smith?
Isn't your eternity worth looking for TRUTH?
"Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of J.S. and LDS members.
Isaiah 44:6 says, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is NO God." & "Is there any God besides me?.. I know not one". God is saying there is NOT an infinite amount of Gods, and there is none like Him. LDS teaches that there is. He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did" (King Follett Sermon) Either the BIBLE or LDS is FALSE.
LDS CLAIMS the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods. This is a PROVABLY FALSE claim.
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was CORRUPTED and "plain and precious parts" were removed AFTER the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and ABOMINABLE church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Nephi claims this church was founded by the DEVIL (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively TEST the BIBLE v.s. BOM.
LDS paid scholar Dan McClellan in 2024: "The data pretty firmly points in the OPPOSITE direction of a historical BOM" youtube short video "Is the BOM historical?"
NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings described by J.S. (Mormon 9:32) ever found ANYWHERE. All reputable linguists have rejected it as mythical as of 2024. Professor Charles Anthon Feb. 17, 1834
NO trace of Jewish DNA found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (LDS scholar, DNA expert): “the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are NOT Jewish. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005
NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 drawings from an Egyptian papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus of scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In drawings Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do NOT match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE
NO trace of “2 million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. Impossible for millions of dead warriors in metal armor to leave no trace.
NO trace of the "great city Zarahemla"- impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla described in BOM (4 Nephi 8; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace.
NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. This "temple" could not just disappear.
NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) ANYWHERE. Impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed.
NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet NOT ONE ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished.
There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the BOM. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists”; 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77)
According to the Smithsonian Institute, the following items (which, according to BOM, existed in the Americas b/w 600 B.C. & 421 A.D.) have absolutely no evidence for existing in the America's during that time: Silk-Alma 4:6, Nephi 13:7; Horses-Enos 1:21; Steel-Jarom 1:8, 2 Nephi 5:15,16; Iron-2 Nephi 5:15; Coins-Alma 11:5-19; Donkeys-Mosiah 5:14, 12:5; Cattle, Cow, and Oxen-Enos 1:21; Pigs-3 Nephi 7:8; Wheat-Mosiah 9:9
NO goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no chariot parts, no brass, no evidence of Kings in BOM Alma 18: 9-12; Mosiah 8:10 & 9:9; 1 Ne 18:25
Can we ignore the STRONG EVIDENCE AGAINST THE BOM and trust our FEELINGS as to it's truth even though it CONFLICTS with the EVIDENCE and the words of the BIBLE? NO!
D&C Section 9:8-9 - tells us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you"
The BIBLE WARNS us against this SUBJECTIVE type of truth test. The LDS test for truth violates the Biblical test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be DECEIVED. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL."
This is why the Bible frequently urges us to STUDY and MEDITATE on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS (J.S.) have gone out into the world."
BIBLE TEST: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll dated to 180 BC.
Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said.
Also, if they had been corrupted, why would Jesus affirm it! “I told you EVERYTHING written about ME in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46)
Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Also, these scrolls are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity" and "TRUTH". 1Nephi 13:25
LDS Apologist Wayne Ham: the Isaiah scroll does not support the BOM. Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, BYU, the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Prof. Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984)
Is the GOD of the LDS the same as in the BIBLE? NO! LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26)
The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the gospel of JOHN. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 160 AD, around the Apostle John's time)
John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google)
John 1:1 Joseph Smith mistranslation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV. In order to try to make things work for LDS, J.S. added extra verses and verbiage into John 1 that were never there in any ancient texts to try to separate the idea of a trinity into 3 Gods.
There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and ZERO support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted.
Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17)
The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous.
God is much greater than the humanoid of LDS and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS.
Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "MANY WOLVES in sheep's clothing" will come trying to ADD to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and added you can become a GOD.
It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for Satan's lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal biblical God.
God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, he tells us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version FAILS the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless.
LDS FALSE Apostles: "The law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p. 110
"The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269
I personally disagree with both points. The Book of Mormon is clear that "God Himself" came down.
Joseph changed a revelation to give himself more gifts. This is strange. The claim was made that he could do it because he received it. This is strange.
Joseph was told temporal concerns were not his prerogative, yet that is almost all of what he did.
Joseph received false revelations (Copyright, KSS, Co50), yet we assume everything he did is true. This is strange.
We should interpret the Nauvoo teachings of Joseph, the masonic endowment, the unscriptural ordinances, and the new doctrines as what they really are. There is no scriptural evidence for any of them except if we squint really hard and ignore almost everything. Instead of seeing things for what they really are, then most people today just blame it on Brigham somehow.
Why would the Nauvoo doctrines be given to them since they rejected everything previously and were even told the fulness of the priesthood was removed. This is so strange to think "further light and truth" when they rejected everything previously and went after false gods.
This video is assuming the later teachings of Joseph are correct, and then interpreting the Book of Mormon against that assumption. I understand the need to have a perfectly clean Joseph, however this is not how things should work. The KFD is an example of a prophet whose eyes have been covered. 2 Nephi 27:5
And Abraham was really sacrificing himself and not Isaac....
@@erikpeoples8041 This doesn't make sense. If Abraham was a god with perfect knowledge and knew that he had to sacrifice Isaac to progress then it would be a similar comparison.
@@Telavian I believe the scriptures are clear that God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ are two seperate God's with the same purpose. God the Father is our spirit Father and God the Son becomes our father as we use His atonement and are adopted into this family clean and free from sin.
@@allthingsarepossiblethruchrist What is the clearest scripture for you?
I find it hard to see them as separate when we have scriptures like "God Himself shall come down", or "The Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father".
@@Telavian LOL