Fixing my Childhood Hi-Fi & Turntable: Power Conversion Adventures!
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- Опубліковано 17 вер 2024
- I've been trying to solve this issue caused by the difference in US vs UK mains frequency for over a year, but when it seemed the US 60Hz was literally infecting or haunting my UK equipment it became clear I needed a rethink. So then I thought... Thanks to PCBWay.com - great PCBs from $5! 📹 ЯR Quick Bytes: Fast to make in one retro take! These bite-sized Hi-8 crafted recipodes are shot & edited "live" through a nostalgic viewfinder, allowing us to cover a simple subject as fast as a DeLorean hitting 88, all so you never miss your weekly nostalgia hit even when we're as tight on time making bigger videos as Marty McFly in a parking lot. Enjoy the retro ride! 📼
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Hey Peri, my boyfriend is a chip designer and electrical engineer. I've asked him about this, he said there are a few possibilities. The first he's just said is that your UPS has detected the US 60hz whilst charging and has auto switched to 60, thus continuing 60hz output with your UK gear. He also says an EEPROM or flash has saved what's been detected and continued with 60hz.
That's probably right, it's logical. It could also be that the unit never truly switches entirely off but may go into ultra-low power mode that allows a control signal from the power button to turn voltage conversion circuitry back on. It is full of batteries and if you can turn it on while it's unplugged, then there must be a control voltage on the power switch.
@@projectartichoke I see what you meme 🙂
This is exactly how I would do it when coding the firmware for international use. And since there is a battery always present there would not even be a need to use the EEPROM or FLASH. However most modern controllers use FLASH anyway.
So if Peri plugged it into his 50Hz making contraption, then it might switch back to 50Hz AC.
@@gmirwin it would do yep
I work in the UPS industry and I know exactly what’s happening here. The UPS you are using is a cheap line-interactive unit that outputs a nasty pseudo sine wave (it’s just a stepped square wave when you look at it on an oscilloscope) these units auto set based on mains frequency so when you start up on batteries it has defaulted to 50hz as it’s a uk unit. When you introduce the 60Hz supply it auto changes, synchronises and then transfers over to mains. It will only transfer back to inverter if mains fails or goes outwith tolerance but as it now ‘knows’ the supply is 60Hz it retains this as it’s set point.
What you actually need is a slightly more expensive dual conversion ups which you can configure via the setup software to lock the output to 50hz at all times.
The APC units are actually pretty decent they use an improved modified sine wave so it's not directly a square wave or step wave. They're my preferred brand as they seem to run things better than some of the other brands that I've encountered. And I have looked at it with an oscilloscope.
@@imark7777777 of course APC have decent models, I’m not knocking the brand or manufacturer, just the specific UPS that was in use in this video. Their smartUPS XLI for example, the next step up from the unit peri is using here has come on leaps and bounds with its latest generation and yes inverter output is a lot smoother on this range upwards. Line interactive systems in general though, I don’t like as when mains goes out of tolerance you’ve got the transient on switchover to ride through and then same again once mains is back as this is achieved using a relay rather than a solid state static switch. Depending on the difference between mains voltage and inverter nominal this can over time stress the connected load equipment or have the potential to disturb sensitive loads. With an online dual conversion system this isn’t the case
That was an awesome video! I loved watching you dive into the mystery of the 'haunted' Hi-Fi system and record player. Your breakdown of the 50Hz vs. 60Hz power issues was super clear and your creative solutions were quite impressive! :D
Just an interesting note about the now defunct Woolworths chain. The U.K. chain of Woolworths stores was originally a part the the American F. W. Woolworth Company, a pioneers of the five-and-dime store concept founded in 1879. Woolworths U.K. was spun off as a independent company in the 1980’s.
The American Woolworth chain of five-and-dime stores closed down in 1997 but the parent company continue on, though they changed their name to Foot Locker, at the time a subsidiary Shoe Chain of Woolworths. Foot Locker had started independently as Kinney Shoes before being bought by F.W. Woolworths in 1963.
The U.K. Woolworth’s shut down all it’s stores in 2008.
There are several other Woolworths chains that once operated or still operate around the world that were started by the American Woolworths: Woolworths Mexicans (Mexico, independent as of 1997, still operating), Woolworths Deutschland (Germany, still operating) and the Cyprus Woolworths (Independent in 1985, now defunct as of 2003), and the Irish Woolworths (Republic of Ireland, defunct as of 1985).
Note that the Woolworths chains in Australia/New Zealand and South Africa, despite their name were never a part of the American Woolworths but rather simply named after it. They are also unrelated to each other other then name.
I remember getting shoes at Kinney Shoes back in the 1980s. Their stores had a distinctive roofline and I still see one of their old buildings every now and then.
As a family, we had a haunted Philips record player where strange voices could be heard when records were being played (and even when they weren't). We tried to get it 'repaired' so many times - because of this, but nobody could fix the problem. The problem couldn't even be replicated properly by the repair shop either.
The voices that came were even more scary (as a child) because they mentioned roads and places near to where we lived; which, as you can imagine, were very frightening at the time!
Flash forward to many years later. I looked up the record player and there were no mentions of what it could have been - via the Internet.
Doing a related search of the symptoms, however, finally revealed the reason why it did what it did. It was because the speakers were plugged in or even wired wrongly - so as well as giving out sound, they were receiving sound via radio signals. The radio signals were coming from taxi radios, emergency services (aka police, fire, ambulance, etc).
So when a taxi went past the house, said radio signals were picked up and broadcast back to us via the speaker(s)! So, not only was the phase alignment wrong (sounds on the left coming out of the right speaker and vise-versa etc), it also was picking up 'stray' signals and broadcasting them to us - over the top of the records we were playing. (Basically whenever we 'span up' the turntable and the speakers were activated!). True story. Problem solved.
Though we don't have any of that equipment now. It should also be noted that there were no identifying marks to indicate what speaker should be plugged in where. This was back in the late 70's/early 80's when there was no Internet and we didn't think of trying the speakers the 'right' way round. (Or 'wrong' way round if you see what I mean). LOL.
That's amazing (and terrifying)
That made me laughed! The minute you mentioned local street names I realised the record player must have either become microphonic - acting like a microphone picking voices via the cables, or was working as a radio receiver, a rudimentary AM detector. So the speaker cables must have been acting as an aerial and the filters within the record player - for rebalancing the treble and bass according to the RIAA curve - were probably converting the RF signals to baseband, the same frequency range as the music on the records, and then they were amplified by the, er, amplifier and played through the speakers. No ghostbusting required...
That reminds me of my neighbors house growing up in my teenage years. He was doing ham radio and his transmitter was stronger than it should of been and our speakers and even the phone would pick up whatever he was broadcasting.
Reminds me of the TV at our old home. During the summer months, we would get ghost images of people sitting at desks overlaying the BBC/ITV picture. We suspected that due to atmospheric conditions, we were picking up Dutch TV signals.
It would not have been the speakers. But poorly screened wires from the record player tone arm cartridge. These can and often do pick up radio broadcasts. Same thing can happen with XLR microphones with poor screening.
Hey Peri. Perhaps an Online UPS would work as the input would run through an inverter pretty much like your cobbled together setup. The UPS you have only switches to battery or inverter if there is a power event, otherwise sends normal power through.
If the Commodore is keeping up with you, aren't you then, by definition, also keeping up with the Commodore? :)
Yeah, you did what you need for the job - a rectifier followed by an inverter. Your UPS kinda does the same job, but the inverter is built to follow the mains signal in building it's output. So, when you connect it to US mains, it switches to 60 Hz and stays locked into that mode until it is fully reset and running on battery only. Obviously, APC puts some non volatile memory component in their UPS, so it only switches back to 50 Hz output when it's been idle and off mains power for some period of time, possibly when it goes into sleep mode.
I bought my Game Genie from Bury St. Edmunds in Rumbelows closing down sale and I had fond memories of watching Going Live on Dixon's shop televisions.
Rumbelows: now that's a blast from the past! Hugely popular in the 1970s in particular (renamed Rumbelows by owner Thorn EMI). Together with Radio Rentals, they had a huge amount of business renting radios and televisions. As the price of electrical goods fell, mainly due to cheaper imports from Japan and Taiwan, they could not maintain their income from rentals and had to enter into competition with the likes of Dixons and Currys, Woolworths and WH Smiths, selling electric devices.
5:15 Us Aussies are known fast talkers…now we can add fast singers to that list!
Really love your content, it is so wholesome and filled to the brim with the nostalgia we so much need today.
Thank you for your kind words! Means a lot 👍🕹
You did absolutely the right thing to use the conversion from AC over DC to AC with different frequency. This is done on industrial scale very often today. Like modern electric locomotives convert the frequency of the powerline the same way you do to another, even variable frequency AC for the motors.
For you the only issue should be with your turntable which uses a synchronus motor, but the cassette deck normally is frequency independant, the motor should run on DC internally.
Hope you will have another long time fun with your stereo, i still have my components from the late 70's in daily use 🙂
The thing is, those UPSes are smart enough to synchronize with local AC power. When you first powered it on, the UPS used its internal oscillator to keep frequency. When you plugged it into the mains, it then synchronizes with the AC of the mains before switching over (it phase locks with the mains), hence the speeding up. This is to prevent phase and frequency switches from harming equipment and generating lots of interference. The problem is, it keeps this while its still powered. Even if you turn it off, it's still powered from the battery keeping frequency (hoping when it's reconnected, it doesn't have to sync up again). To get it back, you either need to discharge the battery or easier, disconnect the battery and then reconnect it.
I wonder if Ms Rachel will form the basis for ALL nostalgia in 40-50 years time…
I see a couple of people have already commented along the lines of what I suspect happened.
Your UPS is probably capable of running on either UK 50Hz or US 60Hz (like most auto switching power supplies of the time and since).
Once you gave it something to match, it switched to 60Hz output and as long as the circuitry remained powered it stayed there. I suspect that if you turned it off for a while (or the battery went flat) then the capacitors would drain and it would come up in 50Hz again.
The only way to actually resolve your issue was what you did - isolate the input and output sides
Pretty sure techmoan did the same thing in reverse, so he could use US stuff in the UK.
I just ran 22 K from Bromley South - to Blackfriars ( Via Greenwich foot tunnel ) then District line from Blackfriars to Victoria , the Southeastern back to Bromley south...all the time in my head was " Are you keeping up with the commordore as the commodore is keeping up with you " drove me mad !!!! Cheers
Haha love it! What speed were you singing it in your head? ;)
I was very impressed at your restraint when you didn't go all Bjork at 08:00, when you were showing us the insides of the UPS ("This is like a little model of a city"). Well done!
In stead of a DC to DC Converter, you've essentially made an AC to DC to AC Convertor. That's simply marvelous!
The haunted Stereo Speed, was probably tied into the UPS 'remembering' the last Frequency it was fed by, when connected to Mains or Commercial Power. While disconnected from Mains, if you would've pulled the SLA Batteries, & waited a few minutes, & then re-connected the SLA Batteries, the UPS Electronics would've reverted back to 50 Hz AC. Food for thought.
I love the look of the old camera.. but boy do i miss modern stabilization..
I'll find a way to stabilize in post
It was 'Hughes' which is just a little further down. They have moved to where Mothercare was just around the corner from Woolworths
Oh wow yes! That really rings a bell! Here it is in 2009, a few doors from M&S. Thanks so much! www.google.com/maps/@52.2455335,0.7130369,3a,75y,99.98h,83.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sO0_EVK3HxZWS9DkXbtqI9g!2e0!5s20090701T000000!7i13312!8i6656?coh=205409&entry=ttu
And I wonder if that shop front with only the "s" visible (3rd photo at photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNRPgZLcvaBWp3ffWmpD_C0gwg7Lvb78nKgS8V3hA9SIL4GGX4h6p-TYEa8LalMlQ?key=QVp2M2hIbUg5VFRxbzI3UWtka0M2UTlqb01LRjdR ) is it!
@@RetroRecipes I live about a 5 minute walk from that Woolworths. I so, so wish it was still there. I guess I first walked in there in '85.
@@simonmalin4065 I may have seen you there!
@@RetroRecipes Quite likely. I was always there, Andy's Records, Boots, WH Smith.
Looking for C64 games.
2:35 if you want to recreate the experience of eating those white chocolate mice, you can get something here in the US that tastes exactly the same.
They are candy melts for cake decorating. They are the same size and shape as Cadburys chocolate buttons, and you can find them in bags in the cake decorating aisle in places like Walmart etc.
The taste and texture is identical to that fake white chocolate that the mice were made of.
Peri, the UPS is matching the cycle rate and it can do that as its a worldwide UPS with different plugs for whatever market its sold, in some markets there is 240v 60hz and in japan there is 110v 50 and 60hz so its matching whatever supply its getting from mains to avoid damage to connected equipment, but if can get a cycle rate adapter that will convert a US 110v 60hz to 110v 50hz and then use the UPS will stay at 50hz
It might have worked with an online UPS with a true sinewave generator, your model is probably just a line interactive model. An online UPS does basically what you did with those 2 adapters plus a battery on the DC side. But my biggest concern would be the power rating of those adapters and how clean the sinewave is.
Thank you for this video. There are a few electronic things from Germany i was wanting to bring to the US for the same reason you brought your gear over for. This helps solve this issue
APC UPS manuals list this as an auto-sensing 50/60 hz UPS. A few sites have reported that APC UPSs often reset to their factory default frequency whenever the battery runs low (power off does not fully power off the controller.. it needs a full battery discharge). But then, attempting to charge with just the basic step up transformer would give it a 60hz signal again.
I suspect if you can momentarily disconnect both the AC mains and the battery in the UPS, it will reset to 50Hz. This would be ideal, as with the first converter to charge the battery, it would put it back into US 60Hz mode when you attempt to charge. So, charge first. Then unplug the UPS battery, wait 5 or 10 seconds, and reconnect the battery to get back to 50Hz. Luckily the battery is in a compartment and easily removed, so this should be a (mostly) practical solution.
Your convoluted solution works just fine however. The DC to UK AC step up converter does the job just fine to recharge the UPS (IT might actually run that whole system just fine off a car battery if you wanted). They produce a somewhat nasty sine-wave-ISH signal, but should be sufficient. Anyway it is enough to trick the UPS back to 50Hz, so.. if it works, use the system as is ;)
The APC UPS measures the frequency of the power grid and saves the value into the EEPROM or FLASH of it's micro controller. When it is in battery mode it will remember the frequency that was on it's input the last time it was charged. So you would need to charge it with 50 Hz in order to make it output 50Hz in battery mode as well. The firmware is designed in a way that it can be used internationally.
When I think about it, that info could just be stored in RAM of the microcontroller since the controller has a big battery at hand backing up its content. No novolatile storage necessary even if EEPROMs and FLASH are common in todays microcontrollers.
@@ChipGuyYes probably just RAM because a UPS has batteries to keep the memory working. Solution to resetting maybe as “easy” as disconnecting the battery…
@@derekjc777 Yes, that was my second guess as well. There is an abundance of battery :)
We had a Woolworths here (beach town just north of LA in Southern California) but what made this one special was out back, in the rear parking lot, on the weekends they would setup a massive Racetrack for 1:5 scale RC Cars, the big expensive RC Cars that only adults could afford, with a pit row full of spare wheels, tires, electric motors, etc. The funny thing is I don't recall Woolworths selling those kinds of high-end hobby store RC cars, so it must've been a club run by someone who worked at Woolworths and just made a deal with the manager to use the empty back lot.
We are kindred spirits! recording UA-cam to a cassette sounds like something I would do. I buy my daughter Paw Partrol when I find it on DVD even though it’s online and I’ve recorded X-Men 97 to VHS. 😂 Great video btw!
You've reinvented the double-conversion UPS.... without the "U" part. 🙂 If you have any stability issues with it as is (or if you hear humming/buzzing from the inverter being "starved" for power), I would suggest adding a fairly large bulk cap between the two devices - the output cap in the power supply probably isn't that large. A few hundred uF would be a good place to start. I wouldn't go too big, as the inrush current at startup may pop the OCPD in the power supply. Neat solution to your problem there!
Thanks! No buzzing yet. I appreciate the ideas in case though! 👍🕹️
@@CricketEngland Thanks but what answer are you referring to?
Probably not an OCD. You mean an RCD: residual charge device.
I don’t know how you did it with such a ridiculously simple solution, but I believe you just solved a problem that has plagued many of us in the US who have lusted after foreign motorized AV gear but don’t want to or don’t have the expertise to make a full blown conversion of a lot of it internally. The UK and Europe got SO many of these MIDI systems compared to the still cool but much more lukewarm versions we generally had here.
From a collecting and enjoyment standpoint, this will allow us to enjoy those pieces here even if it’s not necessarily the most permanent solution. I probably would not keep that stuff plugged in 24/7 as that entire chain of Amazon kluge is made of stuff farmed out to the lowest common made in China denominator and who knows how durable it will be long term. Perhaps there’s more industrial versions out there for trucks (I guess it would be lorries in this case 😅).
I actually used the “industrial” solution in my ham radio stuff, and I still preferred to turn it off, due to standby losses and heat generation. So it’s always wise to put a switch in front of power supplies like this. I use an old school “power director”, which is basically a box with 6 light switches on the front.
Hopefully you're right and this video will help others
A good quality and burger and a good quality power supply should be good. How about you are getting double conversion efficiency issues. Techmoan has a video going the opposite way.
Most likely a universal UPS that identifies the incoming frequency and members it, as you say infected. If you put it back on 50hz it would most like switch back. A cheaper brand UPS would probably not do that. Most UPSs are supposed to do the AC-DC-DC-AC thing also but alot just go into bypass when the AC is present and charge that battery's.
Great result though. !!
Mankind will never evolve until we have a universal power standard. The late Douglas Adams hit that problem frequently when he travelled, and his suggestion was based around the cigarette lighter output in cars. Of course, those are no longer commonly fitted to new cars...
Wow I obviously hit the nail on the head then if Mr Adams agreed! Interestingly even the Tesla still has a 12V DC line for accessories, and it's fairly easy to tap into in the passenger footwell.
A switching power supply would be my first thought, it switches to whatever supply is applied until a different one is used. Most companies would use it so they don't need to make different power supplies for different markets, so all they need is a plug for those markets and save money.
Thanks for watching! 3:07 It seems the Hi-Fi shop might've been identified as either Lawson's or Dixons (update: or Hughes). A big Hi-Fi-ve to channel Patreon Steve who found some photos from the 90s: photos.app.goo.gl/QJzEmeXW7GK6uUos8 🙌
Lawson's is a tobacconist
@@simonmalin4065 In the photos I link to the shop front says "Lawson's Colour TV"
I came here to say Hughes! Did Taylor Electrical exist then, could've been one of those but I think Hughes...Excellent that you were there... a computer shop in Bury is where my tech life began!
I used to have a minidisc tascam portastudio that I bought from the US for use in the UK. I opened it up and was very pleased to find it had a jumper link system that you moved to either accept 120v 60Hz or 240v 50Hz. Almost worked perfectly except there was something wrong with the minidisc side of things. It would read the TOC but not play the discs. Good luck with your technology woes 😢
the boom effect was fitted so naturaliy there I..... WOW
We had (and still have) Woolworths (we always called it "Woolies" as a kid) here in New Zealand and I too have eaten my fair share of pick 'n mix (where there's bins of lollies/candy/confectionary of many types and you get a bag and choose what you want to put in it... and it was paid for by weight.... you literally picked your own mix of candies). While we still have Woolworths they are just a supermarket now... not the department store it once was...
We called it Woolies too!
thanks for such amazing content retro. It's really nostalgic + wholesome. I hope ya get your issues fixedup soon.
Thanks a million! Hope you watched the end of the video to see if the issues were fixed :D
Here's the explanation when it stayed at 60Hz: Some countries actually use 60Hz but with the same plug type so it makes sense this switched internally to 60 Hz... but I think the simple reason it never switched back is you never really rebooted it. Remember the internal battery, so probably disconnect that to reset it to 50 Hz.
Yeah it would be called "Online UPS" if it is always generating the AC signal instead of passing through from your wall until power loss and only then generating it's own AC. Problem: If you're always converting from 115 AC down to ~12 DC and then boosting that DC back to 220 @50 Hz, you get a double power loss (consuming more power than your devices are using). Makes lots of heat.
It is actually more efficient if your battery is higher voltage, say 36 or 48v. Those can easier convert back to 220 with less heat, maybe we could eliminate the noisy fan.
P = IV and V = IR, or I = V/R, therefore P = I^2.R. So, increasing the Voltage decreases the current I for the same amount of Power, which reduces the power loss due to Resistance. That’s why mains power grids are transmitted at high voltage, low current, to minimise the losses in the cables.
I live in Canada and remember seeing Woolworths and Marks & Spencers as a child/teen.The retro gear is 👍
The first thing to note is that a UPS uses an inverter to create the mains signal, in the same way your DC-AC converter works, except that batteries probably can supply more power for a limited amount of time.
Secondly, the inverter is probably using a rudimentary oscillator (unlike a crystal oscillator used in computers and modern electronics) that is locked to or controlled by the mains frequency. Plug in a different mains frequency, be it 50 or 60 Hz, and it will automatically switch to that. Because the oscillator uses the mains to regulate its frequency, it changes frequency when the mains frequency changes. However, it would have a default frequency to start it off when it is switched on without mains, probably determined by a piece of memory (RAM, even a D-type flip flop or solenoid relay) that selects the initial frequency as 50 or 60 Hz. Removing the battery would most certainly reset this, but it’s probably easier just plugging it into your 50 Hz DC-AC inverter.
Just get a continuous mode UPS or Power Conditioners that allows you to set the output frequency. Line Interactive UPS always use the internal inverter's output, regardless if fed from battery or when mains is present (as it is rectified, and does not have a hard bypass switch). Rackmount units such as Eaton, APC, Liebert/Vertiv/Emerson usualy do support custom output voltage and frequency. Some more consumer grade Power Conditioners are also handling this, Monster for example I believe (I use one for my imported Audio Equipment, appreciated by audiophiles, great filter and it can even run without batteries installed).
EDIT: btw I would not recommend using your solution, it may work but highly inefficient and that inverter will be highly inaccurate on its voltage and frequency output, cheap modified sinewave output will vary with load as well, not to mention the lack of proper ground.
Woolworths existed in the US but it went under before the 90s I think
Same in Canada. The one in my hometown went under when I was between 5-10 years old.
If my quick search is correct, the last Woolworth's in the US closed in 1997
Had one just a couple of miles away (Indianapolis, IN). Became a nightclub sometime in the '80s. A notorious nightclub. 😏
@@cheapphish I lived in Indianpolis until the late '80s, small world!
We have one in germany, since I was a little kid 35 yrs ago (still open)
Getting deja vu for the Doctor Who Restoration guys figuring out how to undo videos which had been through PAL->NTSC conversion. Good going!
That c64 nitecore slaps! ❤
I think I know what is going on with your haunted Power system. There are 3 types of UPS, judging by the look inside that you glossed over quickly that I need to really take a better look... but I am going to take a leap of faith and assume this UPS is an Online type with an AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulation)... and makes the difference, I will explain... and BTW, it's a good UPS, not haunted LOL!!!
What I think is happening is that your assumption of expected behavior is mismatched by the assumptions of the designers of that UPS. I bet the electronics in that UPS were ONLY expected to be plugged into a 50 Hz mains supply. Line frequency is something that is highly accurate and maintained by the grid with a guaranteed number of cycles per day, they will actually add or subtract them to make up the difference... I didn't know this either, somebody at PG&E informed me of that.
Thus, the UPS relies completely on that highly accurate line-input frequency to synchronize (zero crossing for load transfers) and calibrates itself to match the line-input frequency, assumed to be 50Hz, and locks onto the mains frequency to "calibrate" itself to whatever that frequency is. That cycle rate is held in memory perhaps by the battery or in FLASH memory. Now that your UPS has seen 60Hz, it is running in 60Hz until you plug it into the 50Hz source.
With all the components you already have... here's what I would do: #1 Use the Inverters to go from AC 60Hz to 12V DC then back to AC 50Hz... #2 Plug your UPS into the inverter's output, the UPS should go to 50Hz, and #3 Use the UPS to power your equipment; because you will have cleaner power from that very fancy UPS... Car inverters aren't really great for audio equipment over the long-term; they are a bit dirty using squarish or stairstep waveforms, that's okay for camp equipment, not so much for hi-end stereo, the UPS will smooth that out for you... it's nicer for your equipment.
Cheers.
That model of UPS looks like it's just a transfer model although I was surprised to see that it was auto switching and frequency.
Tom Scott has a great video talking about how the power grid is used for timekeeping and why clocks were wrong for a while. There's also another video about detecting where something was recorded due to the background noise.
Wahay! You have the same Dual turntable as me! I picked it up from a junk shhop in Cardiff for 5 quid, back in the early ninetees!
We had a Woolworths in Canada for a time and a spinoff store called Woolco where I worked at as my first job back in the late '80's and early '90's. The store became Walmart in 1994 and the exodus began.
Looks like Puppyfractic chased those chipmunks away.
I fixed a similar issue the other way around, having to operate US equipment in Europe. In my case it was a bit easier: The UPS unit could be set to different operating modes. Normal mode was: "Use mains if abailable and backup if needed". But I could set it to "always use battery and use mains only for recharging". This way, the unit never switched mains power (and thus the 50 Hz) through to the equipment, but instead always run it's battery power through it's inverter, giving 60 Hz to the equipment.
When a UPS detects a live voltage, it passes that through and takes some power for itself to charge the battery. That way you're not constantly draining the battery and putting un needed strain on it. As such, it also turns off all the circuitory that takes the batteries DC power and converts it to AC (240v 50Hz in this case). There are devices that take 120v 60Hz and directly convert them to 240v 50Hz. Noel's retro lab did a video on it I believe as he's just moved back to North America from Spain.
I should also say, it's likely being set by the input supply when connected. So when you start to charge it, it's setting the output too 240v 60Hz. This is likely by design, so they don't actually have to make several DC -> AC convert circuits for the various regions around the world.
Woolworths was in the US as well. Used to shop there all the time. They fully exited shortly after my high school days.
That was proper "thinking outside the box" ! Well done !!!
What you would most likely need for your problem is an online ups. In these types of ups always the full chain is active, so the output is always powered from the battery. These ups types are less efficient as the step down and step up converters always are active. Other types may switch over and bridge input to output so that on mains operation you also always have mains frequency. But the problem is to find a device where you can lock the output to a certain frequency.
Another point: Most switching mode power supplies or inverters nowadays are made for multiple regions (voltages and frequencies). So we can assume that the manufacturer tries to keep his parts as generic as possible. Meaning that a relevant control PCB contains a software that measures the line frequency and stores this information to generate an output signal with the correct frequency automatically without user interaction.
So the solution to go from AC to DC and back to AC with seperate devices circumvents problems with devices that cannot be programmed to output a fixed frequency.
HAA it's mathing the FREQ it last saw. When you start it up with no referince it's using a 50hz internal synk but when you conect to the mains it's resynking
It's doing that to protect the devices on the circuit from a sudden frequincy shift. wich can cause problems with some equipment.
Really informative video with a bit of MacGyver style problem solving thrown in!
Very timely for me too, as in the very near future I'm possibly about to face the same dilemma. I'm having all my 90s Technics hi-fi stack (separates) system shipped over from the UK to the USA, two UK portable CRT televisions and also a bunch of VHS PAL VCRs with my entire collection of UK VHS PAL tapes (for digitizing purposes). I was hoping that even though the Hz in the UK is different to that in the USA, all the units all have internal transformers that convert the AC voltage to DC that the systems actually run on, and as you pointed out, DC doesn't output any Hz. Two of the VCRs are very vintage (early 80s) JVC portable units meant to be used with a video camera, and they also have the ability to run off batteries (the old Ni-Cad JVC battery is long dead though), and better still, they also have inputs to run off 12v DC. So any transformer that can output 12v DC, even if powered by US 120v AC, should have no issues with powering the portable VCRs. The other VCRs are 90s/ 00s units, so I'm not sure how upset their internal transformers and circuitry will get when fed 240v except at 60hz instead of the UK 50hz. Same applies with my UK Marantz turntable and the Technics tape decks.
Interestingly, all my vintage UK synthesizers and electronic keyboards that I shipped over a few years ago run absolutely fine via a 115 to 230v step up transformer (I have quite a hefty 3000w model). I've also run my UK wall wart transformers off this main step up transformer as well with no problems.
Also of note, I have seen some UK mains powered devices show 220v 50/ 60 Hz as accepted on the power tag on the back of the unit, so they should have no problem running off a US powered step up transformer. Unfortunately, I don't think my Technics Hi-Fi units and VCRs have this flexibility though. I will soon find out, and if I face the same dilemma as you did, I can use your MacGyver solution to get round it!
Keyboards and synthesisers need highly accurate frequency control and therefore have their own oscillators and frequency synthesisers (an electronic component) to accurately produce the frequency of each note on the keyboard. UPS don’t have to be so accurate and therefore use a cheaper system to generate the mains frequency.
Oh wow I hope it helps. At least the Casios will work whatever country they're in! Thank goodness for universal batteries. I bought 2 more of these 12V setups to use on my UK Apple //e and Hinari TV and plan to test very soon.
TVs will be driving the scanning frequency from the main's frequency so you're gonna want to get a decent quality PSW inverter or a portable power station that can be fed with a different input then its output and supports UPS mode. just make sure it's not passed through UPS mode.
Although some higher end UPS models support frequency conversion.
That said I bought a 2000w inverter and a Dell server power supply. I was running power tools off of it so I wouldn't have to run an extension cord since we already buried a heavy duty cable from the tower to the house where the power supply was. This was to run a winch to raise and lower the tower but it was also a good opportunity to test a much larger version of what techmon did. The whole thing was surprisingly stable and made me buy one of the cheap power supplies on eBay as well. Figured if I could get access to 240V power (since it was a 240 only model) at like a hotel air conditioner socket and I already had the inverter it would make a very convenient somewhat isolation system for cleaning up AC line noise for live audio systems especially with unstable generators that need better regulation.
A number of other commenters have hit the nail on the head.... getting a "better" UPS with more options is the way to go. I'm a little surprised you didn't contact Techmoan for advice as he's well used to getting devices working in his country that he's sourced from places with differing power frequencies!
The UK UPS will have circuitry in it to match the input wave of the mains supply, almost like a DJ beat matching a song they're about to switch to, so your UPS is matching the US frequency and it's staying that way due to internal memory, if you connect it to the setup you where running the Hi-Fi from it should read the frequency and match it again to the 50hz output and solve it
Woolworths was great. I had my first hi-fi system from the one in Fleet. A Toshiba SL-7 which is still in its box in my parent's loft. Another lovely cosy video .
F.W. Woolworth (or Woolworths and later Woolco) were in Canada from 1904 until Walmart moved in, and the final 160 stores closed or rebranded as Walmart in 1994 after being bought out by Walmart.
Technically the company still exists as Foot Locker Canada and Northern Reflections.
I think you’d be better off with a 12v to 240v 50hz pure sine wave inverter. It doesn’t need a lot of power - 200 or 300w would be fine. The cheap UPS is probably matching its own inverter frequency to the 60hz it’s seeing on its mains input. Basically that’s what you did at the end by feeding the ups from the 12v dc supply. But a dedicated pure since wave inverter would probably give a cleaner 50hz 240 supply to your mains equipment, and be more compact
my mom and I in the early 1990s in East Belleville Illinois and I had a Sharp Hi FI I bought with allowance money it had a turntable and am fm a tape counter and took cassette tapes my mom used to listen to it a lot too we one night pulled in a news talk CBS station from Boston MA
We had Woolworths here in the US until I think.. 1997? I remember going to them with my grandmother when I was young to go shopping. It was one of her favorite places to shop at.
Well done, I would probably do the same in reverse with electronics imported from USA... Good to know :)
PUPPYFRACTIC DEMANDS TO BE IN THIS VIDEO!
She's so needy sometimes!
Could just be in the UPS circuitry, the setting for ondulating 50/60HZ is a digital setting, the pin went High to set 60HZ once it recognized 60HZ Mains.
Then it Stays at 60HZ until the circuit drains enough to set that Bit back to 0 (50HZ).
So i suppose if you have let the UPS run a while with no Mains attached it would go back to it's 50HZ state.
So how do you power it from 60 HZ Mains... You might need to find how that 50/60Hz ondulation control works inside the UPS. Maybe there is even a dip switch ? (to ignore the autodetect circuit, it has to be something more simple than we all think).
The APC units are actually fairly smart storing the value in EEPROM, some of their fancy models let you toggle the settings through a computer interface. And some models actually let you do frequency conversion. But none of the cheap ones mostly the online expensive bottles that basically act like an inverter and battery charger power supply.
It was Hughes. I am also from Bury.St.Edmunds originally. Huh, incredible after a couple of years of watching your videos I find out we are from the same area!!!
Yup see pinned comment. Thanks!!
This is a nice MacGyver solution. But why these expensive parts if you just could have rolled out an extension cord between a socket in the UK and your house in the US ? 🤔
Thank you Perifractic for giving us a electrical puzzle to solve. Someone much clever than me will need to sort this out for you. I just watch and enjoy.
Seems way easier to import a British power plant.
One pitfall of this method is that you might get ground loop/interference issues if the charger/inverter chain doesn't connect the earth pin of the mains through to the earth pin of the inverter. You'd think an easy fix would be to connect the earth terminal of your turntable up to the mains earth via a carefully modified power cable, but that might make things worse. It's the stereo that needs to have its earth pin connected to mains earth, which could be a little trickier.
However, that could also introduce noise, since you're also using a sound bar, which has its own amplifier that could pick up the noise generated by the inverter via that earth connection. And if _that_ happens, getting a pure sine wave inverter may help, but again you'd need to make sure its earth is connected to mains earth.
Woolworth's was an American store, started by Mr. Woolworth in 1879, in New York. It was really big in Pennsylvania clear up through the 1980's.
Woolworths have existed in Australia and New Zealand since 1929 but has no relation to the original American store... except... plot twist... they basically "stole" the name to capitalize on the FW Woolworth name... and were able to do so since FW Woolworth did not do business down under! Until I did a bit of research just now... I had never heard of the US retailer!
Techmoan solved the power frequency conversion going the other way using a US inverter and a DC power supply. Not a bad way to get a nice clean pure sine wave and probably some noise isolation. I've actually tried doing this with a 2000 white inverter and a Dell server power supply, yeah it worked it was really cool I was running Powertools about 50 feet away from the power supply. Because of the underground cable I didn't have to run any extension cords, just access the Terminal box at the tower this was to power a winch for raising and lowering.
There are also some UPSes that will do power conversion.
Your UPS that you're using is a standby which switches it's not an always on so when you switch back power it essentially passes it through. What do you want is an online UPS which is basically battery charger/power supply into a battery into an inverter. And you probably could directly charge the battery in that thing most of them are not necessarily designed to be run continuously without improved cooling and in some cases improved circuitry.
I'm actually impressed with that UPS that it's able to automatically detect the appropriate frequency.
There are a few counties in the world that use 60Hz with 220/240V, like Brazil and South Korea. I suspect this board is the same one used in those countries and has its internal inverter sync (and then remember) from the incoming line frequency. The solution is going to be one that is specific to that UPS, if there is one. Otherwise, you’d have to get something that goes to DC and then a 220/240 50Hz inverter that can take that DC. It’s surprising how tricky this is to accomplish. Good luck!
That's a great explanation. It was trying to be helpful and multicultural!
a few countries? most of the world is 220-240v 50hz en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country#/media/File:World_Map_of_Mains_Voltages_and_Frequencies,_Detailed.svg
@@zenmaster24 Yes but OP said _60Hz_ 220/240V.
I don't understand about electrical stuff like this.....but Puppyfractic stole the show for me
Who you gonna call!?
PCBWAAAAAAAAY!!
And as we all know PCB stands for paranormal Contraption busters.... doesn't it?
I can't believe it, i really can't. I just hooked up my record player and bought some records. One of them Beethoven's 5th symphony.
That was one of my first!
What a cool looking HiFi setup (sounds great too)! I remember wanting to buy a really awesome looking MiniDisc stereo in a local electronics shop back when I was a teenager, but I could never afford to buy it (it was well over $500). I doubt I would have ever let that thing go if I ended up getting it.
Does the APC have a USB A "D type" connector on it ?. If so you could put the APC software on a Windows machine and set it back to 50hz.
I just sorted my record deck out propery. I came from an all in one job with a good needle that made my records skip...to a classy cheap second hand Sony without a needle which i just swapped from the first. With an art preamp and some powered speakers. Sounds almost as good as yours! Need more pumpy bass...hmm...
Buy a 12v to 240v pure sinewave interver from the UK and run it of a 110v to 12v plugpack. This will work fine as the UK inveter is locked at 50hz only.
Are these AC or DC though? I need AC.
What a great trick, I'll have to remember that.
You would think someone would've made something for this.
The UPS when not on battery is working in passthrough mode delivering the voltage/frequency from the step down transformer you have it plugged into. When you unplug it from mains it outputs via the inverter circuit which generates the 50Hz mains frequency.
The problem, though, is that once given 60hz, the UPS then started outputting 60hz even after being unplugged. There's some logic in the UPS that retains input voltage frequency, which he probably reset back to 50hz by disconnecting the internal battery and later reconnecting for the demo.
there where woolworths in the us as well, but they went out when i was young
We have, or at least HAD, Woolworth's here in the US. One particular Woolworth's and its lunch counter got kind of famous back in the 60s, in fact.
Genius methord of doing that. You tuber Techmoan is always importing record players etc from Japan and the states and in his video on the US Seeburg 1000 backgroung music player, at about 6min 55 in, he has the same issue, but being a US product in the UK its slower instead, but interesting he aquired a device designed to change the mains frequency from 60hz to 50hz, i'd imagaine it does something similar by converting AC to DC then DC back to AC. I wonder if there's some alternative available for 60 to 50hz 🤔
ua-cam.com/video/8kCHx3_vu9M/v-deo.htmlsi=Nyjeed88K1jkCzMF
Glad you liked it. Yes, it technically is possible but the devices I've found are over $1,000 and huge. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[ PART P UK certing spark ] converting all the way down to DC and back up using UK equipment is the GOAT. You shouldn't have to go 'pure sine wave' on old stuffs they used to be pretty robust. Just get the base frequency right ;-)
Those old NTSC games looked cr4p after PAL conversion...
_Where all my lines go?_
[ frikken ad interrupted my EDIT ]
Timmy, 300 Hz is the cross-over.
DIV 5 or DIV 6, US/UK.
Basically the same thing he's just using a 120V inverter and 240V power supply to go the opposite way instead. Although there are some UPSs the expensive ones that support frequency conversion and are most likely the online models that don't switch and bypass the battery.
funny thing i used to get all my vhs tapes in them shops in the uk
till they were no more i never had a hi fi like you had i had a currys record player and a 4 track mono reel to reel
i used hell of a lot till i got a better one akai 4000d or a sony tc 250 yes the days gone so fast
2:25 - Woolworths existed in the USA, too! It just went out of business in the US much earlier than the UK, it appears. I remember them at my local mall in the late '80s, early '90s.
Since the UPS supports both 50 and 60 hz, doesn't it simply have a frequency selector?
Technically it does exactly the same as your construction of two converters for the car. It would be strange is there is no override some where.
APCs are fairly fancy units and do it all in software assuming they don't lock out the function since this is one of their cheaper units that is not an always on type so it switches through.
Man good old Woolies (said something about that in last weekes video as well) a place for my sweets, music and games back in the day. An yes i know have that tune stuck back in my head again am sure you didn't use the tune for that reason 🤣😂. Great little video as always and a nice fix and as always i can not wait to see what you bring us next. So until then have a great weekend and you all take care🙂
It was sweeeet!!
APC UPS is trained to giving same Hz as input after connect to a 60 Hz source, if it have 50 Hz source will it go back again. It's possible in few models to lock the Hz rate on output side then it's using battery power. In your case you need to have a step down Hz transformer for UPS to work it correctly. Or do like I have do it. 10x 12V battery connected to a heavy charger and from battery connected to a converter from 12V to right voltage and you need to buy it marked as European to get the right thing for your European products. I have many American products then I was needed to get products made for US market.
They had Woolworths here in the US too, at least in the midwest in the late 70's or early 80s
Indeed.
F.W. Woolworth was an American who set up the chain on both sides of the Atlantic,
American Woolworth's ended up becoming Foot Locker.
Or take out the UPS battery and connect a dc power supply instead... :), also the cheap dc to ac converters produce square waveforms which may not be great for audio equipment, see if you find a sine wave UK UPS...
We have/had Woolworths in the USA. I used to go to one when I was a kid but it closed in the 90’s or so.
I purchased that exact model hi fi system in NZ when I was 18 - with my first pay check
I actually had a haunted Aiwa 3 cd multi changer. It operated on its own lots of the time! Never solved the spooky mystery! I should of called the Scooby doo gang to investigate 🔎
I still got my old Aiwa NSX D9 still works and sounds great i just refuse to get rid of it. (needs a new remote)
I also would have come up with the solution to use a DC power supply to run a 50Hz inverter. This ia a common problem with turntables, and other brands are solving this issue mechanically with an adjustable element at the axis of the turntable motor where the diameter can be changed between 60 an 50 Hz use...