Sea Fury vs MiG-15 - How a Prop Fighter Shot Down a Jet (And Which Pilot Really Shot it Down)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 2 лют 2024
- Royal Navy aircraft carriers contributed to the UN forces fighting in the Korean War. Their main aircraft was Sea Fury, an advanced piston engine fighter. By this time, piston engine airplanes were relegated mostly to ground attack role and they still performed it well. In the summer of 1952, communist jets began to appear frequently south of Pyongyang and several encounters with Royal Navy aircraft took place. On 9 August, four Sea Furies from HMS Ocean were bounced by eight MiG-15s. British pilots managed to fight back and the MiG pilots eventually retreated with tails between their legs but the official version of this famous combat which was known for decades might in fact be wrong.
Sources:
- Graham A. Thomas - Furies and Fireflies over Korea: The Story of the Men of the Fleet Air Arm, RAF and Commonwealth Who Defended South Korea, 1950-1953
amzn.to/42oxpt1
- Kev Darling - Hawker Sea Fury - Warbird Tech Vol. 37
amzn.to/48QVRFU
- Sea Fury - A New Perspective on a Famous Dogfight
britains-smallwars.com/campai...
- MiG-15 vs Hawker Sea Fury | Untold Story from the Korean War
• Mig 15 vs Hawker Sea F...
Support the channel on Patreon:
/ showtime112
Donate via Paypal:
www.paypal.com/paypalme/showt...
Join our Discord server:
/ discord
Thumbnail by SPACER
www.deviantart.com/spacer-bat...
Kay519955's Instagram:
/ 3dresinworksofficial
Hitman by Kevin MacLeod
Link: incompetech.filmmusic.io/song...
License: filmmusic.io/standard-license
#militaryaviationhistory #militaryaviation #mig15 #royalnavy - Наука та технологія
When I say that this was a rare case in which a piston engine fighter shot down a jet, I mean after WW2 as in that conflict, there were quite a few such cases.
Have you done a video of the two A-1 "Spads" that shot down a Mig-17 in Vietnam?
@@robertlemaster7525 Not yet. I'll either unlock these planes in WT or maybe wait for DCS modules. But it will certainly be covered.
There is an Army aviator flying a Mohawk that shot a MiG down in Vietnam.
@robertlemaster7525 Iirc there were at least two incidents where a Skyraider downed a MiG-17.
One of my favorite stories is the Starfire that downed itself when attempting to maneuver with a PO-2, probably the slowest plane in the Korean conflict.
EXCELLENT VIDEO....Thanks very much from an Old F-4 Phantom 2 pilot Shoe🇺🇸
I had a very good friend ~ who’s sadly now passed away ~ who flew the Fairey Firefly in action in Korea from the British light aircraft carrier HMS Glory, the majority of which would be ground attack work. Knowing the story of the success the Sea Fury enjoyed, I asked my friend what would by the recommended action to take if their Firefly squadron was bounced by MiG 15s. He said it wasn’t something he’d experienced, but that probably the best course of action would be to maintain formation, slow down in order to force an overshoot ~ not hard as the Firefly was not particularly sprightly ~ and then for everyone to thumb their 4 x 20mm cannon, which would have put a fairly impressive amount of explosive ordnance down range.
I have a photo of him performing the last landing on one of Glory’s three tours of duty in Korea. He was then presented with, I believe, a large bottle of booze by tradition, which would have been well received. I don’t know if the supply of booze was as regular as it could have been, but at least it wasn’t as bad as that experienced by RAF pilots in Burma in WW2, where the beer ration was something along the lines of ‘One bottle of beer per-man per-week per-haps’!
He did have one incident where on landing he either missed the cables or his hook broke (can’t remember which) and the Firefly went off the side of the carrier. My friend got out, but most unfortunately the guy in the observers station ~ who I believe wasn’t actually aircrew and had only gone up for the experience ~ didn’t make it out, not being familiar enough with escape procedures. I think that preyed on my friend’s mind over the years.
The Korean conflict always seems to have been a bit of a neglected part of history ~ apart from the well-publicised MiG-15 v Sabre element ~ but it was really a brutal conflict and shouldn’t be forgotten, so thank-you and well done Showtime 112 for putting this one together.
Thank you very much for this elaborate comment in which you share your friend's experience. Yes, apart from Sabres vs MiGs, Korean War is quire obscure. Which is a shame since so many other types fought there.
The Fireflies tactics seems to make sense. If simulations of MiG-15s are accurate, hitting a relatively small target in a boom and zoom tactics isn't the easiest thing. The plane seems to get very hard to control once you approach a certain speed.
@@showtime112 👍
The famous bomber pilot of the United States Air Force (more than 120 combat missions in Korea and Vietnam) and aviation historian Walter J. Boyne, shortly before his death, in the winter of 2020, gave a detailed interview to the popular aviation portal theaviationgeekclub.som, where he revealed a number of secrets of calculating losses and achievements of American guys, so famously, according to state statistics, smashed Soviet fighters.
"First of all, we must understand that the MiGs were so good that they managed to succeed where even the most experienced Luftwaffe pilots failed in World War II. They inflicted such losses on the B-29 Superfortress super planes of that time that they forced them to fly only at night until the very end of the war... Much of what is listed as official Air Force statistics during the Korean War is nothing more than recycled silly wartime propaganda."
Loved this! In my honest opinion, the Sea Fury is one of the most eye pleasing air frames from that time period. A beautiful fighter..
Thanks a lot! I agree it did possess a certain elegance.
Don’t you think most of those Johnny come lately fighters are really attractive? The bearcat is nice also. The Japanese had a nice one also that look kind of like Sea Fury, and the German had that long nose Fock Wulf 190 with the hi aspect ratio wing, also an attractive aircraft, but not as nice as the Sea Fury.
@@steveperreira5850 But as ever,all aircraft fail in the beauty stakes when compared to the all conquering Spitfire.
It represents the peak of piston engine fighter design along with the bearcat.
Very good looking aircraft.
Four 20mm cannon's, looks like the Brits took a page from the Jerry's and their FW-190-A5. The US A1-A piston banger in Vietnam went head on with a Mig17 and lit that Mig right up with it's four 20mm cannons, that Mig went down in a big fireball too.
…. It was TWO Skyraiders the Mig 17 took head on, with 8 20mm cannons firing at it, and to this day neither pilot knows which one actually got him, each pilot was credited with .5 of a kill.
That's a story which waits to be covered. Both these airplanes are being developed for DCS but I might also use the ones in WT.
The Skyraider was way bigger,heavier,slower than the Seafury.
But packed the same punch@@eugeneoreilly9356
It was a pair of A-1s that dropped the MiG credit is shared as neither one was sure who got him
The WW2 Tempest 2 also had the Bristol Centuries engine, but the powers that be went with the Tempest 5 { Napier Sabre engine } instead. I think the Hawker Fury/sea Fury has to be one of best looking fighters ever. Good video.
Thanks for the feedback! That Tempest story is far more complicated than one might think. I only recently discovered how many different variants were considered.
The fastest of the Tempest prototypes was the Tempest 1, at 465mph recorded, but that was also the last of the prototypes to fly, the Tempest 5 having by then already been ordered into production.
There was a combat over Vietnam where two Skyraiders,took down a MIG,15 I think in a head-on attack.You might want to compile a video on that one.
As always,I am impressed by your attention to detail,unbiased narrative and skilled editing,thank you. 👍🙃
That is in my long term plans. Than you for your positive comment!
That'd be a Mig-17.
Another great video about a piece of history that I did not know about !
The piston is might than the jet, if you keep the fight in the Horizontal not the Vertical, the piston fighter have more turning radius than jet.
Yes, they can outturn jets. Which in the era of guns only was still quite an advantage.
Very true. PR Spitfire MK XIX's were able to operate over Germany with impunity- despite the existence of the 262 jet. Provided the PR pilot observed the climbing 262, they could make complete monkey's out of the 262 pilots, the 262 flew like a verry fast brick compared to the agile and powerful XIX- 470 mph flat out, and well over 600 mph in a dive. There is a superb account of one such encounter by RAF pilot Ray Holmes in his book, 'Sky Spy.' Holmes is famous for ramming a Do 17 bomber over London during the Battle Of Britain. He observed it heading towards Buckingham palace, Holmes ran out of ammunition, so he rammed the Do 17 and took it's tail off. The Do 17 crashed into the side of Victoria railway station- the scars are still visible on the outer wall today. Holmes had to take to his shoot because his Hurricane lost it's wing in the encounter. His account of dealing with an 262 intent on intercepting him is superb, he easily evaded it by chopping the throttle from full power to minimum power- causing a massive deceleration just as the 262 pilot came in for the kill. Holmes broke hard to starboard in a wing over and turned into the attack. The 262 missed by a mile and over shot. Holmes opened up to full throttle and engaged full WEP- war emergency power- pushing the throttle to it's absolute maximum- bypassing a rev limiter. He went into a power dive and screamed away in the opposite direction at 600 mph+ The 262 was left for dead, by the time the brick turned around, Holmes was long gone and on his way back to Blighty to the Mess for tea and medals. The account is gripping to read- highly recommend it.
@@liverpoolscottish6430 thanks for this interesting story.
Probables achieved by Mustangs in Korea, 8 IIRC, could well have been legit kills. MIGs could have crashed very far away from the combat site. Due their superior speed. Something like this happened in Poland Sept 1939. Bf:s reported as damaged by Polish pilots were later found crashed well over 100 km:s from combat site. THX for yet another excellent vid.
Thank you for watching and commenting! I'll definitely focus on the Mustang employment in Korea someday. Especially early in the war.
@@showtime112in summer 50, june exactly, F51D started their kills : IL 10( iL2 better) yak9 ,La 7. Butter for thèse pilots, with ww2 expérience
The Sea Fury, is such a beautiful aircraft, as the old saying goes, "if it looks right, it'll fly right"
That saying often is correct. Although, many might argue that it kinda fails in the case of F-104 :)
Great video, as always. I'm not particularly familiar with the Korean Air War, and certainly not with the Sea Fury. An interesting aircraft. It's always nice to learn something new.
Thanks! I usually give some intro for these videos to make some kind of a context. Sea Fury is not nearly as known as Spitfire or Mustang so I suppose many don't know much about it.
Great video on an account that I had never heard of!
Thanks! It's one of those relatively known (or relatively unknown, depends how you see it) encounters. But the historical twist makes it even more interesting.
Another stunning cinematic video ....had no idea the Brit Sea Fury made it to Korea...can see why you would not want to " rate fight " it in a period jet...one little mistake and it's gonna blast you from the sky. Those 20mm s are no joke. Thank you for the education .
Thank you for the positive feedback!
Great racing plane.
An other excellent story about Corea war where a F4U CORSAIR shot down a MIG-15 too.
There's an other case like this, in Vietnam where a pair of U.S A1 SKYRAIDER shot down a MIG-17 on 1965 with their 20 mm guns in a front fight like this video.
I'll definitely cover the Vietnam story in the future. Thanks for constantly watching and commenting!
@@showtime112 Dont bé worried, mate ... Jeanne Zehner and me follow and comment 😊all vidéos
Excellent video. I read the story in a magazine and even built a scale model of the Sea Fury. Of course the magazine said nothing about the 1978 interview. A great story nevertheless and again, thanks for your lessons Jedi Master
Thanks a lot! I found the account in several books but they all say it was Carmichael.
Didn't know there was footage of La-174. Great video as usual.
Thank you for the comment!
I was about to comment on it too, thanks!
Awesome video, once again! 👍🏻👏🏻💪🏻🍻🍻🙋🏼♂️
Thanks again, Pappa Bear! Say hello to Goldilocks :)
@@showtime112 😂 Will do, if she don't mess with my porridge! 😉👍🏻🍻🍻
Great episode. Really enjoying your chanel, you really know your stuff. Many thanks
I am grateful for your positive feedback!
The Fury was no slouch.Cuba used a number of them to good effect during the Bay of pigs incident.
Yes, definitely a topic of a future video.
That’s my favorite plane!
Could I ask where you got the thumbnail from just out of curiosity?
MiG-15? Based on your account name :) The thumb was done by an artist called Spacer. There's a link to his Deviant Art page in the description.
@@showtime112 thanks for the info!
Actually I meant the Fury!
I saw the actual Sea Fury from this engagement at the Fleet Air Arm Museum in the UK. It's displayed with a Mig-15 hanging from the ceiling.
I gotta go see that someday!
Thanks for the great reenactment of this battle, where many news articles credited Lt. Peter Carmichael with the Mig kill. I didn’t know there was actually an agreement between the 4 pilots that they wanted their flight leader to be recognised and the veil of secrecy to be lifted until the last man alive. What a cool story. Thanks man. I believe you have covered the last of prop vs jet encounters having covered the other one flown by a USMC F-4U Corsair. I enjoyed watching these re-enactments from Korean War.
Just wanna ask if you would be covering the battle between USN F-9F Panthers and Russian Migs which were classified by the US for many years. That would be a cool story to cover.
Thank you for the positive feedback! There's one more prop vs jet story but from Vietnam. I will probably cover the Royce Williams fight against MiG-15s someday as well.
Buenísimo el vídeo. Muchas gracias por tu esfuerzo en la realización del vídeo. Gran trabajo!
Thanks a lot, I'm glad you liked it!
Thanks! I love the one where the Navy dive bomber took on the Zeros, and the one where US Phantoms took on a bunch of North Vietnam Migs for 15 minutes doing the Thatch Weave. I hope you do videos of those!
Thank you for commenting! I hope to cover those stories someday.
An interesting dual , Bearcat vs Fury . I would pay to watch .
Love your stuff, keep it up!!
Thanks, I appreciate your positive feedback!
Great video 👍
Thanks!
This was a good episode !!
Thank you, I'm glad you liked it!
The Sea Fury was a beautiful aircraft! Plus I learned several new things from this video!
I'm glad you did, thank you for commenting!
I didnt even know sea fury's faught a war, i thought it was one of those planes that were operated but didnt see any action, like the F8F bearcat.
Im glad to learn of this glory the sea fury's had
Stories of most airplanes operating in the Korean War are a bit unknown. Most people know about Sabres vs MiG-15s but there's so much more. Thank you for the comment!
I believe the French flew the F-8 Bearcat in Indo-China.
@@Michael-en7of ohhhh if so that's the first I'm hearing it! Thanks for the information
Glad you made that point at the end. A good well trained pilot in a super-prop, can very much beat a less capable pilot in a jet.
Out of that same war, we got the legend of the US pilots having a 9:1 kill ratio ~ which dropped by Vietnam. That's a disturbing statistic, until you start to pick at the details. Migs contained Chinese or North Koreans, but they were sometimes accompanied by the Russian instructors. Those instructors, were under orders not to get into combat themselves, but sometimes they did. When that happened, the win : loss ratio was a lot more like 50 : 50. When the combat experienced Americans (Many of them had been Pacific theatre aces in the last war) came up against new-chum N Korean student pilots, flying unfamiliar aircraft, of course they beat them easily! You'd be a bit disappointed if they didn't.
But then you had the Fighter Mafia, who said we had a 9:1 kill ratio in Korea but less than 4:1 in Vietnam ~ our aeroplanes are shit ~ our missiles are shit ~ our training is shit ~ we need the F-15s and air combat manoeuvring school, and we need it now. They didn't mention N Korean student pilots while they told that story ....
Statistics tell the truth, but some animals are more equal than others. Or if you haven't read Animal Farm ~ some truth is lot closer to true than others, it's all down to how the data was gathered and presented and what 'facts' you use it to prove.
Understand ~ I'm not saying American F86 pilots were less than exceptional ~ I'm saying there was a little more context to that story than you normally get told.
While I'm on this subject, they also told their F-86 pilots that the Mig was a little faster because it was lighter, but it was flimsy, and a few hits would bring it down. They didn't tell the F-86 boys that Mig packed a 37mm cannon or that the Russian pilots thought it was solid like a ship, compared to the piston planes they'd flown against the Germans in WW2. Solid heavily built dependable old beast, always gets me home. That's how the Russians felt about it. Very capable of taking a few hits and still flying home.
'There are lies, damned lies, and statistics!'
@@seanmorris~ That's the one I was aiming at, yeah.
Thank you for the elaborate comment!
Very interesting video about a case that I didn't know (involving of Sea fury in Corea war). Excellent as usual.
Thank you very much!
In the re-enactment, the Sea Furies have Canadian markings. The Canadian Navy flew lots of them from 1948 to 1956. I read a good very detailled book about them: Stuart E. Soward, Hands to Flying Stations: A Recollective History of Canadian Naval Aviation, Volume 1: 1945-1954 (1993). They were great planes, really the ultimate in piston-engined fighers. However, the Canadian Navy experienced a very high accident rate with lots of fatalities. Reading the book, many of the accidents were pilot error but many were mechanical failure.
Excellent graphics 🏅
Thank you for the comment!
Good summary. It’s nice to have the record set straight.
Thank you very much for your positive comment!
Excellent video! The Sea Fury remains one of the most beautiful and admired aircraft of all time. One of the most ironic things about the Mig15 is that it flew with a Soviet made copy of the Rolls Royce Nene jet engine, for some unfathomable reason the post world war two Clement Atlee Labour government naively decided to gift the Soviet union with complete Nene engines, drawings, technical specifications, tools and equipment to replicate what at that point in time was the UKs' most advanced jet engine. That gift gave the Soviet union an excellent opportunity to quickly develop and build an effective and capable swept wing fighter around that engine, a feat that the UK didn't catch up with the Soviet union with for some years. The Mig 15 went on to become a thorn in the side of western nations for many years, thanks to that ill conceived idea of gifting the Rolls Royce Nene engines and the technological advantage that they contained.
Thank you for the comment, I'm glad you liked the video.
Experienced Combat Pilots made all the Difference !
They usually do. Thank you for the comment!
My Father Told me a story that being too eager or aggressive will insure being shot down, Every time he chased Enemy Planes in Vietnam they would Run away though the Closest he ever saw the Enemy was in 1972 and they never wanted to Fight Their F-4 Phantoms.@@showtime112
I'm collecting some exact datas for 2-3 stories from the Hungarian military aviation, just somehow need to transalte it for you to English. If you are interested, kind a not well know events even in Hungary.
I might be interested. Is it WW2 or perhaps the Cold War era? As for the translation, if it's in some kind of a format that can be copied and pasted, GT can do a pretty usable job.
Thanks!
Thank you very much for your donation!
Like your reenactments .
I'm happy to hear it, thank you!
Well, This is the case of toxic seniority I guess ;)) And thank you for one more incredible history of aviation reenactment
I suppose this was a leftover from the past, hierarchy says that higher rank is always better. There were probably many more cases similar to this one that were never cleared.
Excellent, Excellent
Thank you very much for the positive feedback!
We Brits have known about this encounter for decades. The world's fastest piston fighter downing a jet fighter is something to be lauded.
Very cool story. The Sea Fury was a beautiful aircraft.
Thank you very much for the comment! The Sea Fury was very elegant indeed.
As an American I have have vast history of aircraft I can look back and love the looks BUT I do hold an old and secret love, the Spitfire, Hurricane and Sea Fury I tend to love the most...
Then this is a video for you :) Thank you for commenting!
👍
Hfala!
Shooting down of a Soviet Mig 15 jet by a older prop Sea Fury... is a sign of a skilled pilot. It always man behind the machine during air combat.
According to sources I could find, RN training was at very high level.
Thanks
Thank you very much for your donation!
The Sea Fury and the Bearcat are my favorite prop plane fighters....
Then you are the target audience :)
Me too!
EXCELLENT JOB, this video is another probe the contribution you are doing to aviation history. THANKS .
Thanks again Pablo!
The Hawker Typhoon was a handful. Sea Fury looked the goods. Interesting fighter planes.
Inexperienced badly briefed pilots not using the advantages of the Mig, airbrakes on, getting into a turning fight with a much more manouverable aircraft is only going to end one way, 4 20mm cannon will make a mess of anything regardless of aircraft type. Lucky to have seen Sea Furies at an airshow probably 20 years ago, despite all the jets for me there were the star of the show, coming down in a shallow dive they were easily the fastest prop fighter i've ever seen, awesome plane, great video
Thank you for your positive comment!
It was " common" in the early days of the Korean War...there were F4U Corsair and P51 Mustang vs Jet kills. My friend Urban Ben Drew killed two Me262's in Germany in 45' in a single engagement in his P-51D "Katzenjammer IV"
In WW2 it was quite frequent. As for Korea, there are a few examples that you mentioned. Compared to all the jet vs jet or jet vs prop kills, they were extremely rare I'd say.
Marine Capt Jess Folmar smoked two MiG 15s while on patrol in his F4U -4 Corsair in the skies over Korea in Sept of 1952. The high speed prop driven planes of that era had more range and endurance and bomb load than jets and also could out turn the jets. Add 20mm cannon fire, they could knock an early jet out of the sky if the jet pilot slowed or wasn’t paying attention to a deflection shot.
There would not have been a Mig 15 if Rolls Royce hadnt sent them jet engines in 1949.
I wonder how they would have done with MiG-9 in Korea. Perhaps Americans wouldn't have even sent the Sabre and we would have seen F-80s and F-84s dueling MiG-9s.
Have or are you planning to do one on the F4U Corsair/Mig encounter also in Korea?
That story was covered by some other channels that do similar reenactments so there's probably no need for me to cover it too. But there's plenty of other stories left to do.
Excellent 👌 presentation by Showtime 112! Love tgat you're covering the Korean Conflict as i can inagine that there's more aerial battles, and engagement ls that are rarely discussed. Thanks fir presenting this forget history of Aviation. ♠️🎩🎯🎱🇺🇸🏁🇮🇱🇺🇦🔱🌻🌼🏵️💮🌸🏴☠️🏹
Always enjoy reading your comments! Yes, there's plenty of lesser known aerial battles left to cover :)
Pretty sure you pronounced Lieutenant the correct way the first time, in Australia at least the air force and army pronounce the rank with an 'eft' while the navy pronounces it 'oot' and I believe its an inherited tradition from the British. As far as I know the air force carried over the army tradition because the air force was established from the AFC which itself was a formation in the army prior to it becoming an independent service, despite its ranks being largely derived from navy ranks.
Thanks for the info. Although, in my Falklands War videos, I was 'corrected' by several hundred British people whos protested that they pronounce it 'leftenant' for some strange and unexplained reason :)
@@showtime112 I've no idea why we British pronounce it Leftenant, but in the army and Royal Navy we do. The Royal Airforce doesn't use that rank name, equivalents would I think be Pilot Officer and Flying Officer for for the equivalent army and Royal Navy ranks.
A monster of an engine!
It's not unheard of.
The first air to air,
gun kill, were a couple
of AD-1 Skyraiders, mixing it up with a mig-15.
Head to head, Ariel,
gun battle.
(8-20mm vs 2-23 mm
1-37 mm cannons!!)
Also, plenty of Me-262s were shot down by prop planes.
There was an incident where an American Skyraider bomber shot down two MiGs. I forget the details but I believe it also happened during the Korean War.
It was Vietnam. And the kill was shared between two Skyraiders who fired at the MiG at the same time.
82ND AIRBORNE
Great intro...ill make a track out of it a apply it to my kit.
Oh yeah...2,480 hp!! 460 mph!!
YEEEEEHAW!!
Glad you liked it, thanks again!
Can you make video on hawker sea hawk
Possibly. If I do, it will probably be about its involvement in the 1971 Indo-Pak War.
@@showtime112 wasn't it more involved in 1956 suez crisis
After the air battle between 4 x Sea Fury's and several MiG-15s the Fleet Air Arm had reports that all four Sea Fury's had fired on the MiG that was downed. In this case the kill was awarded to the flight leader, Lt Carmichael. Later it was assumed that Evans had shot down the MiG because he had expended more ammo. But as in many air combats, it was impossible to tell who's bullets caused the plane to crash, so the original decision was the correct one.
Maybe. But then again, Paul Beaver must be lying about those 1978 interviews.
The Also Flew With The PAF (About 100 Of Them) The Irony Is That They Were Replaced By The American F-86F With 6 50 Cal Guns Where The Furies Had 4 20mm Canons
As we know from experience, newer technology is almost never completely superior to the old one :)
Actually many ME 262's were shot down by piston powered fighters late in the war, P41 mustangs also shot down Mig 15's as well. The jets are at a disadvantage in maneuverability compared to late model piston fighters which were at the zenith of their development.
True. I was referring to the post-war period.
@@showtime112 i saw that after but still there are several cases of jets being downed by pison aircraft. It got to the point where both the RAF and USAF took mothballed aircraft, the RAF a late model Spitfire and the US a late model P51, to stage mock dog fights with their current top line jet fighters. It seemed modern weapons has problems locking onto the piston powered fighter because they produce less heat and have less electronics signatures. In many cases missiles failed to track the targets so they had to use guns and that was aa time even putting guns on jet fighters was being questioned. Some believed combat would be to fast to even use guns which eventually led to some aircraft not having any. For both piston fighters this was their last official service with their respective air arms before officially being retired. A lot was learnt by the exercise that helps pilots deal with older fighters when they faced poor nations with obsolete aircraft. Good reading if you could find the complete reports. I have only seen bits and pieces myself. Cheers my friend.
This is not as insane as people think. A piston has the edge in the turning fight especially slow and low. Jets may try to go for pistons but have to slow down to get more aim. Especially for a MiG going 600mph. A piston that slows down to 250mph is literally like catching a fly. The Sea Fury is not better than a MiG 15. Overall a MiG would dominate the arena and would require other jets to wrestle air superiority.
Yes, it can happen but the jet pilot must allow it :)
The is the first time I've heard of Fireflies operating over Korea. What was an aircraft tasked with anti-shipping duties doing over dry land?
Dropping bombs. There was a lot of pressure, mostly against the communist logistics support and anything that could carry bombs was sent against it.
Prop planes win against jets when the jets forget to fight to there strengths.
Hoagie Carmichael is a legend. Only Eric Brown is more famous than him in the RNAS.
Carmichael was a glory hunter. He knew that he hadn't fired his guns during the engagement and so killed a few crabs on a beach to show that he was in action.
He was awarded the kill and medal because he was the commander.
Ellis was the rightful recipient of any award, but rank has its privileges. Shameful behaviour.
Eric Brown does not deserve to be dragged down and involved in this discussion. He is the most respected pilot who has ever flown.
In a dogfight, Speed can be a disadvantage.
Sea Fury has a great plane but was it better than the hundereds of Corsair's that the Royal Navy pushed overboard in 1945?
There must have been good reasons for that pushing...
Well, it wasn't that much better to justify such an action :) I haven't researched that specifically but could it be they were getting rid of surplus airplanes so they didn't have to pay for them under the Lend-Lease Act? They recently found some Hurricanes in Ukraine that were buried at the end of the War because Soviets only had to pay for the surviving ones. Could be a similar thing.
You`re on to something for sure.@@showtime112
@@showtime112That’s correct. After the war the British had to choose between keeping the corsairs and paying for them, or disposing of them. So to save money they crammed them all onto aircraft carriers and dumped the whole lot in the sea off southern Australia.
Lend lease requirements meant the F-4Us had to be disposed of or paid for. The RN opted for disposal
Americans fighting in the korean war - "fuck yeah USA"
When the brits do the fighting for them - "fuck yeah we're so good USA!"
If you ever want to annoy an RAF pilot ask him how many air to air kills the RAF have had since WW2 and how many the Fleet Air Arm have
Do we include blue on blues ?
If you want to annoy a USAF pilot remind them about Operation Skyshield.
As the great Manfred von Richthofen himself wisely put it:
"It's not the crate, it's the man inside it."
The FAA at last. Bloody great!!
Thank you for commenting!
I think the Fleet Air Arm would been better off staying with the F4U Corsairs. Instead they kept employing these mixed air groups orf Seafires, Sea Furies, Fireflies and etc.
The decision to get rid of the Corsairs was probably done under specific circumstances but with the benefit of hindsight, they should have probably kept them.
@@showtime112 Iirc Corsairs dumped off the decks of RN cariers post Japanese surrender because if the British kept them they'd have to pay for them under Lend Lease terms. (Also US planes dumped/returned as to not affect the post war UK aircraft industry)
Yes, we paid for the help given.
@@showtime112 having a mixed Air Group like that didn't really increase any performance. And just exacerbated their Logistics. Sort of like the US Navy's situation prior to kind of concentrating everything on the f/a-18. The headaches of just the different engines alone must have been a bit of a mess?
@@seanmorris While it wouldn't have done much for the aircraft industry, it would have done a lot more for the efficiency of the Fleet Air Arm. Having to support aircraft from different manufacturers, using entirely different engines. Complicates air operations and logistics services. None of their post-war aircraft was a huge leap from what they had.
Kurt Tank can be considered the father of both aircraft. Sea fury and Mig-15
Pretty cool.. but did they really fly with d-day stripes painted on.. seems like a target
They did. It was supposedly done to avoid friendly fire. But I think that 'Schmoo' Ellis said they got rid of them soon after these clashes with MiGs.
thats a bit tough on ellis
I live how pissed the old guys get when the slightest inference is made that the Sea Fury is a FW190 knock-off.
😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
The beauty was the winner
Love the Sea Furry.
Thank you for commenting!
They're all working from home these days. That building is empty.
Looks like a Focke Wulf 190 from the side
💪
Hvala Medo!
Sometimes its the pilot and not the machine.
Probably, more often than sometimes :)
Given the respective maximum speeds of the Sea Fury and the MiG-15, does anyone know at what speed these aircraft battled each other? From what I get from the video, outright speed can be less important than maneuverability.
The usual preference was for the Mig to launch a diving attack followed by a climb, so the speed would probably be 1000 km/h while attacking, and probably 168 km/h while climbing to prepare for another attack. In this kind of scenario, a prop plane really wouldn't be able to fight back at all, so long as the Mig pilot wasn't foolish enough to start climbing right away.
Inexperienced pilots would occasionally try to out-turn prop planes instead though, so the Sea Fury would probably be going at 300 km/h, while the Mig would probably go somewhere below 600 km/h, since going faster than that would probably cause the pilot to black out. That speed, however, would create a real risk that the Mig would lock-up while trying to maneuver, which would mean the Mig would have to drop speed or die, so they'd probably be going similar speeds once the Sea Fury was actually in a position to shoot.
It's hard to say though, since the Mig being in that kind of position in the first place already means either the pilot or the plane is doing something wrong.
Don't forget, plenty of Me-262s were shot down by prop planes.
Yes, in WW2 it was quite common. But in the post war period, there was only a handful of cases.
Those Migs had a 37mm cannon, right?
One 37mm and two 23mm. The problem with the 37mm was its low rate of fire and muzzle velocity, but the Mig 15 was designed as a bomber killer, not a pure fighter. For dogfighting purposes it would probably have been better to replace the 37mm with another 23mm.
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 Yes, that would make sense. Their main oppo still used .50 to good effect.
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 I wonder if the inclusion of the 37mm was inspired by the Cobras they used so effectively?
Yes, although I think its purpose was primarily to hit B-29s. The slow rate of fire and different ballistics from the smaller cannons weren't a problem for this task.
@@showtime112 The Russian pilots loved the 37mm in the Aerocobra (apart from the low capacity) Pretty much a one hit knock out. I think the RAF screwed up (again) by passing them over. First they took the thirty seven out and replaced it with a twenty mil and then they moaned about the performance at the wrong height. Their loss was soviets gain, though. I remember reading a book about a German pow in Soviet Russia and he described being shot down by an American fighter that the Russians used that had a large cannon. He was the gunner in a JU 87 and he wrote something like the cannon shell went through the armoured glass, through the pilot, through his seat and into the armour plate designed to protect him from rear attacks where it exploded and plastered him all over the cockpit. The gunner then decided to bail out at this point. Clearly a bright lad.
But in the skies of Korea, the Soviet aces proved their superiority by shooting down 3 times more enemy aircraft than they lost their own
US Navy F4U-4 Corsairs shot down MiG 15 in Korea.
To take the credit for somebody else's kill is dishonourable, but there is a common belief that officers have high standards of personal honour. Is it a myth? In this particular case more than one officer was involved in the deception.
no corsair?
Where?
@@showtime112 Anywhere but also in Korea too where it famously shot down migs too like the seafury
Would the Furies really have had those invasion stripes at that time?
Yes
Energy management is the key, a swept wing jet has more to play with, but loses more in a turn fight too, specially lower to the ground in the thicker air, that was their mistake, if the 15 pilots had fought furries vertically they would have won it easily, but they didn't, cause their training was lacking...😮
I thought it was Spitfire Mk 9 that did this.
😂direct to TV....❤❤❤
C'est pas fair play de la part de CARMICHAEL.
@@jeannezehner9450 tout a fait. Il a fallu 66 ans pour reécrire la vérité . En tout cas , exploit. Pour A1 skyraider vs mig 17, c'est miracle.
@@jeannezehner9450 tout a fait. Il a fallu 66ans pour que la vérité soit rétablie. En tout cas c'est un exploit
@@dominiqueroudier9401
OUI c'est un exploit, mais les pilotes de MIG-15 ont loupé leur approche, l'effet de surprise s'étant évaporé, tout fut remis en question.
Just the other day, YT was stressing in a report that a significant number of viewers watches my videos on TVs. You contributed to that :)
Considering this is 1952, it's very likely that these Mig drivers were Russians....
Not really, there were many Chinese units flying MiGs by this time.