Should You Share the Teachings of Teachers Who Commit Sexual Misconduct?
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- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
- "How can you share your teacher's work due to all the suffering he caused from his sexual misconduct?" Someone left this comment on one of my UA-cam videos. It's a very important question and one I attempt to address in this new video.
Ultimately what I've learned is that the teachings, if they're true, don't belong to the teacher. As a Zen practitioner your path is to stand on your own two feet and make the tradition and teachings your own.
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Thank you. A deeply flawed human that I deeply respect once reminded me that “people aren’t their worst traits.”
This is why monasticism and precepts have such an important role to play
Good point, thank you. Precepts are crucial in this discussion.
Thank you! This is so tricky and I appreciate you talking about it.
You are so welcome!
In my senior years I have a different measure of my parents and their flaws than I did as an adolesent. I realized everyone is deeply flawed and they did their best with it. In college, I got interested in "soul travel" and found an author and his movement. There were some powerful and beautiful truths in those books but they turned out to be mostly plagiarized, to the point that they are no longer in print. But I can not deny what I learned.
Beyond well said! If you’re going to wait for a teacher without flaws, or wait for teachings from “on high” not transmitted by a flawed being, you’re going to be waiting a long time! As someone who has studied leaders and leadership and “great minds” for two decades, they’re all flawed. Why? They’re all human. We can respect and admire and use the teachings, without condoning the human flaws and their impacts.
Truth is truth ... doesn't matter where and, from whom, it comes from! Super candid and touching! Thoroughly enjoyed your first book ... Didn't know about your second one ... I'm on my way to get that one too! 👍
Yes! Thank you!
I came to it quite late, a few years before his death. I never got a hug from him, neither in Sanzen nor anywhere else. A handshake once, in present of others. Sanzen never lasted more than 1-2 minutes for me. He would ring me out immediately with the words: "Not enough or more pure."
Roshi gave me a feeling of being seen, giving effort and arrive here an know in my one body and live. Back at the cushion, I usually cried because there were so many tears that had not been cried. When I hear you talk like that, I realize that we were probably all pretty broken, shaped by life. Once he call me "good studet" in present of hole sagha, I was very proud.
He, Genro, and the practice were, in any case, my salvation (if you can put it that way), so, right now I see no problem in continuing the lineage. It is one of the three jewels, Dharma.
What each individual makes of it is each individual's karma, not the dharma. Roshi took that to the grave, he bears it, not you and not me. person only bear own behavior in relation to the situation, direct contact, not direct contact, observer, outsider, what so ever.
I think it is always important to Reflect and act out of this reflection next time. That's Sangemon.
Thank you.
Dito 🙏🏼🙏🏼
I attended two sesshin with roshi, and i felt a connection with him in sanzen, that he understood where i am and show me what i need to go to the next step. this is in the nineties, I have been doing more Theravada style practice since then. Being grounded more in the classic instruction instead of teacher personality have been beneficial to my ongoing practice
Thank you for talking about such a difficult topic, years ago in India I was with a teacher who had sexually misconduct with some students, and your talk help me to reframe my experience, to take what was useful and valuable and to accept that he has a dark side ...like me!
Thank you dear friend.
Once again, thanks for putting your wholeharted nature on display here. I can relate to your catholic outrage, it's the toughest cling for me to let go of. Your videos and the commentariat offer a master-class in debating, understanding and following the Buddha Way. Teachers of all subjects, paths and displines exhibit flaws. With regards to the enlightened nature of these very human Zen teachers, in most every case I've read about, I wonder why they are unable to "own" their actions by acknowledging and apologizing to their students and the sangha but leave the karmic impact for their students to suffer.
Thank you my friend. It's rare to see a teacher really "own it," like you say. Which really says something.
@@zenconfidential25 What does it say ?
People get stuck, I think. We all have blindsides. Even the best among us. Can this be true??
@@zenconfidential25 Thank you. Yes I think so. And something that can be so obvious from the outside, can be a total blindside for the person living it.
@@zenconfidential25 Yes, to all the ways humans can get stuck. So many compassionate and insightful comments on this video. Some point to what is a key distinction (often ignored) between the, all too human, zen teacher and the mystical, magical, infallible Guru. As you suggest, understanding and following of buddhist precepts can always help us to anticipate and resist harming others. But then again, and not diminishing the responsibility and power of the teacher over the student, it takes two to make trauma.
I have the assumption that whatever this enlightenment-thing might be, it doesn't really affect every aspect of a persons character or psyche. In short: If you are an a**hole and get enlightened, you still are enlightened a**hole.... You might transcend your ego or your "small self" but you don't erase it. Thank you for the heartwarming Video!
Yeah I really think you're on to something here. Perhaps one CAN manifest enlightened compassion/wisdom on the one hand...and be an ass on the other.
@@zenconfidential25 At least that's my feeling... Or at least I guess enlightenment doesn't automatically integrate itself into ones being - it hast to be integrated like in some kind of phychoanalysis to blend into ones character or shine forth into every aspect of the self. In other words: there are still some stones on the way you take bringing the ox back to the marketplace....
Beautiful video, love it, wow what an experience. Thank you for sharing.
thank you my friend.
Dilgo Khyentze Rinpoche who was a Main teacher of Trungpa Rinpoche said it well when asked about Trungpa sleeping with students: He is not as Enlightened as he thinks he was.
Wow thank you. So weird, I'm literally shooting a video right this moment where I talk about Trungpa and this issue. I hadn't heard this quote but it sounds about right.
Thanks for your efforts.
So nice of you
It's a tough question. My first teacher turned out to be a bit fruity!! I learned so much off him and he was an undeniable genius...but I couldn't reconcile the paradox. Aftef I left some more scandal broke. I keep my distance now but still teach his stuff. I don't think we're meant to understand these things. They're meant to challenge our polarised sense of right and wrong, whilst we do our best not to repeat the behaviour! My opinion, by the way!!
Thanks for the vid! D
Thank you so much. I like that description. "Fruity."
Are you teaching "... his stuff" or the Buddha dharma? Within the Tibetan traditions there has been such unquestioning devotion to the guru that many sangha became cult like to such an extent that sexual abuse of students was ignored or explained away in the most preposterous interpretation of Buddhist teachings. For example the teachings on Pure Vision or emptiness being used as excuses for appalling behaviour.
(I'm about to say too much. Sorry) I appreciate you, your humanity. I feel raised up from my ordinaryness when I listen to you. In my life I have known many priests, monks, professors, and others who carry credentials for "knowing." All, every single one, are fully human, with flaws tarnishing their wise knowing. The only ones worth hearing are those few who don't sit on the throne of their "wisdom" like wee Buddhas smiling down on us ordinary folk imparting stinking blessings while grabbing gluttonous pleasures self righteously. Oh my, I've gone a bit far. My apologies. All I mean to say is that you are one of us, not one of those, and I appreciate you. Thank you.
Thank you my friend.
I'm almost 60 years old, and I've studied Buddhism (and other philosophies) for over 40 years, but I do not consider myself a Buddhist. One problem I have with Buddhism is the concept of enlightenment. Buddhism presents Nirvana as something that is attainable. I don't think it is. The flame cannot be put out IMO. It can only be kept under control. We are all humans and we all make mistakes regardless of whether or not you call yourself enlightened. Thinking you're enlightened is a delusion of grandeur. But there is truth in Buddhism. Personally, my flames of desire are part of what make me human. I accept them. I don't try to extinguish them, but I don't let them control me.
That's part of what is meant with "Nirwana and Samsara are one".
truth
@@reedwill953 Their nature is empty, so why should you ever be unable to act from them anymore?
The part we all cling to wants us to believe a lot of things, things that put it, i.e. your ego in the driver's seat... Like the world is a dangerous struggle for survival instead of a great adventure that if you were to embrace it you might have you discover who you really are. Our lives aren't what "it" wants us to think. 😂
My theory is that the power of being the Abbot of a Zen Center perhaps re-awakened his ego his nasty little Golem that clearly at some point I presume he'd gotten beyond🧘♂️☯️ but🤷🦧. I believe strongly in the wearing down of ego via hard knocks if backed by that drive for dharma. Maybe he actually thought his hijinks were funny? Checks and balances are good. But there aren't any accidents so it "is" your journey brother 🙏
I don't draw the line on one or even two behaviors. However, when I think about Richard Baker, I draw the line there. Sexual misconduct and favoritism aside, RB continually violated precepts for so long that I thought that he needed to be stripped of his rank and sent back to the front lines. People will disagree with me and that's okay. After meeting him a few times and noticing all of his trappings, I decided he was not a teacher for me - that's a lesson many students need to learn.
We can learn from anyone. However, a teacher is a position that needs more scrutiny than most realize. It took me years to really grasp where my lines are drawn. That's part of the journey.
I had a friend who was studying at San Francisco Zen center during the Richard Baker fiasco, and her take was that the sexual behavior was never the heart of the problem for the higher ups in that community. The problem started when there seemed to be financial misconduct. Her conclusion was that the community was OK with the sexual misconduct, but once the guy started misspending funds, things got real. Not sure if that's true, that was her take. Baker is an interesting case study, though. I'll never forget reading Shoes Outside the Door when I was a wee monk.
I just listened to History on Fire (Daniele Bolelli) two parter about the Zen monk Ikkyu and I was struck by how irrelevant these guys’ personal lives were to their ability to transmit wisdom. (There was also a 15th century Tibetan monk mentioned who could impart instant enlightenment to the women he slept with his penis was “a flaming thunderbolt of wisdom”)
I don’t know what to think honestly
but I know that while it took many years before I could watch Woody Allen’s Husbands and Wives again when I could- it was just as amazingly good as it always was
Ikkyu is a really good reference point here, thank you. As for that 15th century Tibetan monk...Imma hafta research that!! I too don't know what to think. Don't Know Mind, I guess ;) YOU know? I had that SAME EXPERIENCE with that same Woody Allen movie. It came up on TV and I watched it through. It's just as good...even if HE is not.
Very good teaching. Tq
thank you
Maybe the "problem" with all these teachers who committed "sexual misconduct" is that they have been judged according to a Western, post-feminist movement lens.
What westerners consider sexual misconduct was just more or less normal in other cultures and not talked about.
I'm not saying one is right and the other is wrong, but that's just the way it is.
Nevertheless, I do think women shouldn't be taken advantage of sexually in spiritual settings.
I'm sorry I keep blabbing on but yeah I study that Tibetten Buddhist teachers "Ocean of Daharma" 365 Teachings. I keep going back to it. His stuff about "lightness of being" or (friendliness to oneself) not only what naturally occurs eventually in one's practice like the surfacing of that natural dignity but that without it one can't perceive sacredness of daily life. I mean a warrior's path
Sometimes it is difficult to recognise the abusive behaviour happening in the sangha/organisation to which you have 'invested' so much time, faith and probably money. It can be a useful start to removing the 'rose tinted glasses' by reading authorative accounts of what has happened in other Buddhist organisations when abusive teachers had control. For anyone interested in getting involved in any Buddhist organisation or tradition I would recommend 'Fallout, recovering from abuse in Tibetan Buddhism' by Tahlia Newland. The author was parr of the Rigps organisation of Sogyal Rinpoche for about 20 years. She was unaware of the physical, emotional and sexual abuse of students by the allegedly 'enlightened' Rinpoche until it was exposed in 2017 by whistle blowers who were part of the inner circle. The wrecking of sanghas and organisations in the Tibetan Buddhist traditions which have come to the West to spread dharma but have been used by abusive gurus/teachers is now well documented. The closing of ranks by Tibetan Buddhisms religious hierarchy is worthy of the Catholic Church.
Thank you. I have heard of that book by Tahlia Newland and read some excerpts from it. Super analogy between closing of the ranks in Tibetan Buddhism and Catholicism.
Thank you for the honest, powerful teaching. Does “awakened” equal “flawless”? Untroubled? Uncomplicated? Defilements are Buddha mind.
Thank you.
American Zen: just a Cult of knowing. Human life is shorter then we count on. Confidential-San, start over...Now!
Starting over...now!
Seems to me that some enlightened insight does not necessarily obliterate the personality. People still function from a personal perspective in the world even after "liberating insight". They still have personal biases, often quite pronounced and very apparent.
This, it seems to me, is where misconduct has it's roots: the ego-personality which persists even after liberating insight.
It's wonderful that you were able to receive the teachings. It is fine that they came to you through him. So much the better than if he had committed his transgressions and NOT given you (or anyone else) the teaching.
But do you need him anymore? The years you spent studying with him and caring for him will always be a part of your story, but does that mean he needs to be a part of your teaching?
The truth can come through you just as it did through him. It was never his to begin with.
Perhaps it is time to leave behind the raft now that you have crossed to the other shore.
This is something that bothers many people a lot, but for whatever reason it tends not to bother me nearly as much. I mean, I still have great respect for much of Thomas Jefferson's politics and the Declaration of Independence, but deplore the fact that he was an unreptenant slaveholder. Does it make the Declaration of Independence invalid and nothing more than hypocrisy? Some people think so, but I don't see that. I mean, I really wish Jefferson hadn't owned lsaves and had been more enlightened about race, but people are complicated and highly imperfect, and Jefferson's thoughts made the world a better place in many ways. At the risk of sounding both trite and unfeeling, it is what it is, you gotta take the bad with the good. It worries me that this attitude of mine says something about me that I wish were otherwise. Is there something defective about me that I can be so "easygoing" about this? It's hard to know.
(1) If one becomes enlightened, I wonder if that means that they be remain enlightened every moment of every day thereafter?
(2) Do they understand the harm they are doing to those they abuse, when they do so?
Are we interpreting their intentions/behaviors in the Right way?
How would a jury of his enlightened peers interpret to their actions?
What is it like for an enlightened person to be immersed in a deluded culture?
You might think I'm looking for excuses for them, but is it right to judge someone who is perceiving
the world in a fundamentally different way?
(3) Do as they teach, not as they do.
When I was a teenager, I was inspired by the science fiction writings of an arthur who was having relationships with minors. He solved the problem by moving to another country where the culture accepted that behavior. And the families of those minors are said to have actually appreciated the interest he had taken in their children. (Yuck!)
I never regretted reading his works or being inspired by them.
Wow, thank you so much. You hit to the heart of the matter.
this all has a Sunset Boulevard kind of vibe
"Can secular buddhistic practices, as they are applied in therapeutic settings, be as efficacious as traditional zen methods in providing spiritual fulfillment?" - I'm wondering if you can do a video on this topic some day. I really appreciate your words ❤❤❤
Funny comparing CTR with Nugent since CTR was tone deaf. 😁
The Dharma sang through your passion. The world was just doing its thing as usual, full of fruitcakes and nutcases. All praise the Buddha for suggesting that the self can be seen.
The Dharma is transmitted since 2500 years and it is not imaginable, that only flawless persons (if those exists at all) have learned and transmitted it. You mentioned a testimony that someone had the impression of an addicted junkie when he behaved like this. I guess that he suffered from this gap betweeen his teaching and his behaving himself and found no exit - due to this "addiction".
However, I think in our time sexual misconduct is overestimated a lot due to the chistian past. And this new laisser-faire attitude and the LGBTXYZ-stuff presented to the outside made the humans not more tolerant but less forgiving in reality when it comes to sexual misbehavior: People with sexual flaws are more outlawed today than in the middle age. It is simply one serious flaw, no more, no less. Nevertheless it is tragic, that he caused people to leave the Sangha.
Thank you, my friend. You've gotten me thinking.
I don't think you should turn your back on his teachings or even the man. You learned from him and loved him and I genuinely think that's great. People are complex. The problem for me, someone without the benefit of years with the man in a different capacity, is when you mention his name or show his picture or even attribute a concept to "my teacher." For me that breaks the fourth wall and pulls me out of the story. I'm no longer thinking about the idea you presented because of the cascade of questions: How did this happen? Was his enlightnement real? Are his words valid? Is Zen valid? Is he credible? Is Jack credible? Is redemption possible? It's too much to reconcile on top of the already challenging issues of Zen, life, death, the topic of the day, etc. Maybe I'm too sensitive, but that's my experience. A ridiculous extreme example would be if I were a kid's party clown and I set up a platform to talk about being a better kid's party clown and occasionally mentioned I learned everything I know about being a kid's party clown from John Wayne Gacy. He might have been the best kid's party clown in the world, but there's a bit of baggage there. I personally think the wisdom freely given is yours and it doesn't need credentials. Just a thought. Take care.
But Zen teachers need to treat their students like psychiatric patients and hold them wisely! They're PAYING FOR A SERVICE! Come on! Get with the program!
No, they don't, but they also need to keep their grubby hands off their students unless there's consent.
I'm always a few dang steps behind the curve!
No, but they should keep their hands off their students.
The confusion caused by Identity and Authority are an issue here. If I am a Communist (identity) my relationship to Das Kapital and Karl Marx (authority) is necessarily messed up.
Please explain
@@YoungAdonise Its about how motive and bias necessarily cloud our judgement. All of this based on fear and our need for certainty and security. Our beliefs and our teachers become our security blankets, give us meaning and status etc we can't see the whole movement driving our experience. When we really understand zen, we no longer need to identify with the words and psychological images of zen. Sorry - I've probably confused the matter further. Maybe ask a specific question?
@@YoungAdonise Best UA-cam channel name ever!!
@@macdougdoug So are you saying, because I identify as a zen practioner, this identity would make me cling to an authority that emboldens my identity, and so my relationship to this authority as a result of my identification will be delusive?
@@zenconfidential25 haha, thank you
Nope. You need to make your own path, you cannot accept a teacher who is not worthy.
An un-enlightened person can be a great dharma teacher. A person who commits sexual misconduct can be a great dharma teacher (for some people, perhaps).
But... can an enlightened person commit sexual misconduct? The answer is no, if you agree with the statements ascribed to Shakyamuni Buddha in the Pali Canon suttas. It's pretty unequivocal.
For Shakyamuni Buddha (in the Pali Canon era of teachings), the stream-enterer, which one might call the "lowest" level of enlightened being, "... possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones-unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration." SN 55:1, (tr. Ajahn Sujato)
Stated again, in AN 9:7, (tr. Ajahn Sujato)
"In the past, as today, I say this: ‘A mendicant who is perfected-with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment-can’t transgress in nine respects. A mendicant with defilements ended can’t deliberately take the life of a living creature, take something with the intention to steal, have sex, tell a deliberate lie, or store up goods for their own enjoyment like they did as a lay person. And they can’t make decisions prejudiced by favoritism, hostility, stupidity, or cowardice.’ In the past, as today, I say this: ‘A mendicant who is perfected-with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment-can’t transgress in these nine respects.’”
Interesting definition of "enlightenment."
@@HardcoreZenI guess it may not really be entirely applicable to Zen. But I believe this, anyway. Whatever kind of Buddhist I am.
@michigandersea3485 @HardcoreZen I was thinking the same as you @michigandersea3485.
Whenever i hear about misconduct of an "enlightened" person i remember reading that the Buddha gave a list of attributes of what an en enlightened person is. Maybe it's the lists you mentioned above. I can't remember them, but i do remember it was a rather long list and was pretty clear. It was clear that you couldn't be called enlightened i you had those types of misconduct.
The Buddha was sometimes tiring with all his lists. But i think they were there for a reason.
Zen people kinda take pride in the fact that they're not reading the Pali suttas but sometimes i really think they should.
It seems we have lowered the standards for the definition of enlightenment. That's a shame and i don't know to what extent Zen should be called Buddhism.
If anyone finds a list of these attributes (in case there are more than what you gave above) please share it.
Thank you for the video and the teaching Shozan @zenconfidential25, it's very good. Might be a good idea sometimes to make a video about the basics of the pali canon.
I have chosen Zen for how alive it is, for how it opens up big questions and encourages inquiry.
But i don't like the aspect of bashing the old scriptures to the point of sometimes sounding ridiculous and obvisouly ignorant of what they're saying.
The problem is that you are calling people enlightened and not enlightened. We are humans that do good and bad things. These Buddhist teachers that did bad things…did bad things.