My church is just a social club that means nothing. No one talks about God. The services are the same every week and mundane. We just recite the same thing every time with no passion.
This is one of the best treatments of the subject I've heard in over 30 years! Succinct and yet sensitive to those who have been injured. Most importantly, his response is true to Scripture. Well done Thabiti and thank you for placing God's truth at the foundation of your position.
So what would you suggest then, for a person who absolutely despises going to church? I’m searching. I know that how I feel isn’t right, but I don’t know how to get passed it, and no one knows how to help me. I spent my entire childhood with my mother driving me to church three times a week for services, and any additional activities the church held during the week. I never questioned it. It was my life. Somewhere around age 25 (I’m 37 now, with a child of my own), I just got burned out. I was tired of the pettiness I saw in my church brothers and sisters. I was tired of looking at deacons with their fake godly expressions on Sunday - when I knew that one of them was a wife beater, another was a cheater, another hated POC and would be rude to anyone who came to that church whose skin color didn’t agree with him. These same, sin-ridden people forced my best friend to the front of the church and made her confess HER sin because she got pregnant at 17. I watched a pastor and mentor I loved and admired have a complete nervous breakdown in a public setting, be institutionalized, and later commit suicide. He’d had a genetic predisposition towards mental illness, and was never told because his own pastor father didn’t want the stigma. He might still be alive if someone had said, “it’s not pretty, but this is your situation and you need to seek professional help for mental illness before you reach a breaking point? I’ve had older ladies question my salvation because I dared to wear capri pants when I was singing in the choir one Sunday morning. I know that Jesus is none of those things. But quite frankly, his church has left a lifelong bad taste in my mouth. I have no interest in taking my son to a place where people are more concerned with how he appears than the condition of his heart and soul. I want to be better. But what is better? Staying at home, enjoying a peaceful Sunday morning with my family, or forcing myself to sit through a two-hour charade of a service and feeling resentful and angry the whole time I’m there? Edit* I don’t attend the same church I grew up in, where I experienced much of the church trauma. But the one I attend infrequently now just feels fake. I don’t like it there either. I haven’t been to a service since the pandemic started in 2020.
I think church is used in two different ways. Church the institution, which is the tradition of attendance and church service/activities. Then there is Church the body of Christ, which is the bonding/connecting/gathering of 2 or more followers of Christ.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? I John 4:20
Hatred of brothers does not equal hatred of the Church or churches. There is the Church (in which we have our being), and churches (buildings, spaces, etc., in which Christians gather). While we cannot leave the Church, we can leave churches, especially if they've hurt us badly. It is only logical to do so for our well-being. What is important, however, is to remain open to a good church. I doubt those who have left churches are against joining good churches.
Phileos Sophia The bible never refers to a building as a church. Never. The Church is always the people. Always. There is the universal Church, everyone who is born again, and there is the local church. both are referred to as body. An organism. If you hate your brother, how can you say you love God? You can't.
Achilles Exactly. That's what I said, and I even distinguished what a true church is from buildings that are called churches (reread my previous comment for clarification).
Phileos Sophia Leaving doesn't necessarily mean hating it, but the church is the people, Christ is the head. if there's a problem, get restored to your brother, move on.
Exactly. That's what I said: "hatred of brothers does not equal hatred of the Church or churches". I'm honestly not too sure why my comment is being misunderstood on your end, but it appears that we actually agree with each other. The reason I posted my comment was because it seemed you were using 1 John 4:20 to implicitly suggest that those who leave churches hate their brothers, and thus cannot love God. If this wasn't what you were attempting to suggest, I'm assuming you already recognize that simply because people leave churches, that they don't necessarily hate their brothers or God, but rather could be facing deep hurt that even reconciliation couldn't immediately (or even necessarily) provide?
Personally I fall in the first statement. I have been emotionally and spiritually hurt multiple times by different congregations throughout the 90s and 2000s due to the "church growth movement" or treating church like a business with pastor as a CEO and the congregation as patrons. I've needed to take a break from the institution to recover emotionally and think clearly. I wonder if the Catholic church can make the same claim to the Protestant churches (i.e. if you really loved Jesus you would be joined to the Catholic church)? For me I think we need to distinguish between the people and the programs that make up church. I don't see how one can claim to love Jesus and hate people. However I do see how someone can claim to love Jesus and hate the programs and structures of an institution that seem corrupt. What advice would you recommend to the "nones" and "dones" that would say they love people, they love Jesus, they want to encounter the transcendent and they can't seem to find that in the institutions of today?
Loving God has nothing to do with a building. The most hateful people I have met go to church. I hope to return to a congregation eventually... but I don’t agree with the premise that one doesn’t love Jesus because they don’t like hateful and judgmental persons who claim to love Jesus but act the opposite. I believe in the resurrected Christ and I believe that sin separates, but the hurtful things so called Christians do in Jesus’ name is false.
Are we going to ignore that the Church of today does not love Jesus if they did they would obey his teachings like the early church like the first Christians his disciples
My church is just a social club that means nothing. No one talks about God. The services are the same every week and mundane. We just recite the same thing every time with no passion.
This is one of the best treatments of the subject I've heard in over 30 years! Succinct and yet sensitive to those who have been injured. Most importantly, his response is true to Scripture. Well done Thabiti and thank you for placing God's truth at the foundation of your position.
I would say Jesus would have hated churches in modern days ... It's the system of prides that make it bad
This was my criticism of other people in the past but I came to realize I now have this issue myself! Great insight. Thank you!
So what would you suggest then, for a person who absolutely despises going to church? I’m searching. I know that how I feel isn’t right, but I don’t know how to get passed it, and no one knows how to help me. I spent my entire childhood with my mother driving me to church three times a week for services, and any additional activities the church held during the week. I never questioned it. It was my life. Somewhere around age 25 (I’m 37 now, with a child of my own), I just got burned out. I was tired of the pettiness I saw in my church brothers and sisters. I was tired of looking at deacons with their fake godly expressions on Sunday - when I knew that one of them was a wife beater, another was a cheater, another hated POC and would be rude to anyone who came to that church whose skin color didn’t agree with him. These same, sin-ridden people forced my best friend to the front of the church and made her confess HER sin because she got pregnant at 17. I watched a pastor and mentor I loved and admired have a complete nervous breakdown in a public setting, be institutionalized, and later commit suicide. He’d had a genetic predisposition towards mental illness, and was never told because his own pastor father didn’t want the stigma. He might still be alive if someone had said, “it’s not pretty, but this is your situation and you need to seek professional help for mental illness before you reach a breaking point? I’ve had older ladies question my salvation because I dared to wear capri pants when I was singing in the choir one Sunday morning. I know that Jesus is none of those things. But quite frankly, his church has left a lifelong bad taste in my mouth. I have no interest in taking my son to a place where people are more concerned with how he appears than the condition of his heart and soul. I want to be better. But what is better? Staying at home, enjoying a peaceful Sunday morning with my family, or forcing myself to sit through a two-hour charade of a service and feeling resentful and angry the whole time I’m there?
Edit* I don’t attend the same church I grew up in, where I experienced much of the church trauma. But the one I attend infrequently now just feels fake. I don’t like it there either. I haven’t been to a service since the pandemic started in 2020.
I think church is used in two different ways. Church the institution, which is the tradition of attendance and church service/activities. Then there is Church the body of Christ, which is the bonding/connecting/gathering of 2 or more followers of Christ.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? I John 4:20
Hatred of brothers does not equal hatred of the Church or churches. There is the Church (in which we have our being), and churches (buildings, spaces, etc., in which Christians gather). While we cannot leave the Church, we can leave churches, especially if they've hurt us badly. It is only logical to do so for our well-being. What is important, however, is to remain open to a good church. I doubt those who have left churches are against joining good churches.
Phileos Sophia The bible never refers to a building as a church. Never. The Church is always the people. Always. There is the universal Church, everyone who is born again, and there is the local church. both are referred to as body. An organism. If you hate your brother, how can you say you love God? You can't.
Achilles Exactly. That's what I said, and I even distinguished what a true church is from buildings that are called churches (reread my previous comment for clarification).
Phileos Sophia Leaving doesn't necessarily mean hating it, but the church is the people, Christ is the head. if there's a problem, get restored to your brother, move on.
Exactly. That's what I said: "hatred of brothers does not equal hatred of the Church or churches". I'm honestly not too sure why my comment is being misunderstood on your end, but it appears that we actually agree with each other. The reason I posted my comment was because it seemed you were using 1 John 4:20 to implicitly suggest that those who leave churches hate their brothers, and thus cannot love God. If this wasn't what you were attempting to suggest, I'm assuming you already recognize that simply because people leave churches, that they don't necessarily hate their brothers or God, but rather could be facing deep hurt that even reconciliation couldn't immediately (or even necessarily) provide?
Personally I fall in the first statement. I have been emotionally and spiritually hurt multiple times by different congregations throughout the 90s and 2000s due to the "church growth movement" or treating church like a business with pastor as a CEO and the congregation as patrons. I've needed to take a break from the institution to recover emotionally and think clearly.
I wonder if the Catholic church can make the same claim to the Protestant churches (i.e. if you really loved Jesus you would be joined to the Catholic church)?
For me I think we need to distinguish between the people and the programs that make up church.
I don't see how one can claim to love Jesus and hate people. However I do see how someone can claim to love Jesus and hate the programs and structures of an institution that seem corrupt.
What advice would you recommend to the "nones" and "dones" that would say they love people, they love Jesus, they want to encounter the transcendent and they can't seem to find that in the institutions of today?
Loving God has nothing to do with a building. The most hateful people I have met go to church. I hope to return to a congregation eventually... but I don’t agree with the premise that one doesn’t love Jesus because they don’t like hateful and judgmental persons who claim to love Jesus but act the opposite. I believe in the resurrected Christ and I believe that sin separates, but the hurtful things so called Christians do in Jesus’ name is false.
Exactly how I feel 💯
great word, thank you!
Great Video I always thought about this
I have been hurt by christians. I have difficulties with church. Do Christians really love each other? Many times it just seems superficial...
Ron Burns which category do you fall into?
Jesus never had a domination
Jesus also didnt give gospel in a BUILDING
Amen and Ouch!
My church thinks you CAN'T be a Christian if you reject Paul's teachings lol
Are we going to ignore that the Church of today does not love Jesus if they did they would obey his teachings like the early church like the first Christians his disciples