Ahh glad I wasn't alone. This game played with so many wild concepts I couldn't grasp, it tripped me out and I just didn't get into the game after 3 or so hours
14:00 this, This is the big problem, while Planescape torment walked the "Big trouble in little china" route and said "yup an ally just gave birth, you wanna question that? well too bad we're moving on" T:ton tries to explain what is the settings biggest asset - the unexplainable.
oh and the changing god is not a computer program. the big thing at the end is he died when he left your body at the start of the game. the thing in your head is just a back up program that thinks he is the changing god.
***Spoiler*** Regarding Rin ( I assume you finished the game with her in the party based of the footage) you can send her home by meeting some NPC in in the bloom, right next to this guy there's another NPC that recognizes you as Adahn which is a throwback to PT. Basically you get a quest here and if you do send Rin home she will come back to in your mental palace from the *future*, right when you are separated from everyone in your party.
I once had dreams of taking writing classes. Then i watched your videos. It was a murderous death. You give no inch. I need to see your Alpha Protocol analysis cos as much as I liked that game i did not think it was particularly great So maybe we can all experience some positive knowledge Thank you
All due respect to the majority of your work, but Rhin actually has the best storyline and can become a great and powerful healer for the party. In fact, she's considered by many, to be the most essential party member for this game.
Numenera as a setting does not really work even as a tabletop setting. it just to random and not grounded like forgotten realms. planescape may be werid at times but it atlest has rules.
The question is wrong - the question "what can change the nature of a man" will give you pause to ponder the question, the pause is what matters. "What does one life matters" is an easy question with an easy answer - not much unless that life is my own.
I thought that T:ToN was *really* great, but only when looked at in an atomic sense. I thought that the small interactions had some great writing, and those interactions together made for a unique, unforgettable experience. Multiple times, I had to walk away from the computer and consider the ethical implications of some action. I could interact with the characters and the world in a really genuine way, and that was an excellent experience. For the kind of game I wanted to play, one that had an excessive quantity of detail, minimal combat, and quests with novel resolutions, T:ToN was very good. However, T:ToN really falls apart when considered in a general sense, looking at its complete story. Where its individual scenes can be meaningful and enjoyable, its main narrative clearly a flawed simulacrum of PS:T, and an inferior one at that. You've already iterated points against it, and I echo many of your sentiments. The setup, the ending--it was all very bland.
10:00 to be fair the world of Planescape existed long before Planescape torment was released - you do not need to create the world to support your story - but you do need to understand the world, which is what I think is T:ton biggest failing.
Well said. When everything is weird, it becomes normal. It worked for first few hours for me, I was wondered by everything they threw at me, but then it just fizzled out, because I was just expecting everything to be weird. Also weird is not enough, if it doesn't make any sense and I definitely had this feeling many times here. *SPOILERS* On one side, they want you to think about everything you do, on other side they tell you things are what they are, and give you no explanation. One particular line at the end struck me - after asking how did Aadiriis (one of the castoffs) abused the Tides even if she has never used Tidal Surge, the Sorrow replies: "The Surges are one manifestation of that suffering, but your kind draw and distort the energy of the Tides at a level you cannot understand." Ok, so you are killing us because we have SOME connection to these energies which aren't even explained and used in any meaningful way in the game. Great motivation.
It became a large, confusing mess, where we're supposed or inclined to care about our choices due to a color system, but whose system has no meaning or story impact. Combined with slow and uninteresting combat, and you're wondering why you're even bothering.
There are spoilers in this, but with this video being a review of the story, this comment covering major spoilers should come as no surprise. I would argue that the story for the Last Castoff works far better only when you choose to accept that you truly are the Changing God who lost their memories after narrowly escaping their death. This fact is cemented by the final confrontation with the end of the game, realizing that the antagonist proclaiming themselves to be the Changing God is merely an older version of yourself. Really, I feel the story only works best when you use the old memories of your life as the Changing God and ultimately try to redeem yourself for your past sins. This game really only would have worked best if you did not have the choice to ignore your true past, and suffers from giving the player too many choices. I would also strongly argue against Rin being useless, and instead suggest she serves as an excellent means to enjoy that sense of redemption for your past, as long as you save her from being used and send her back home. Still, I would say this is a good analysis of the story, and I enjoyed seeing another perspective of what took place.
This. I always got frustrated when the dialogue responses said something like "(Lie) 'I am the Changing God.'" No, I'm not lying to these cultists. I'm being completely genuine. I _am_ the Changing God.
You know, I bitched at you and others in your last video about Tyranny and all it's issues, but for my complaints I still vastly preferred playing it over Torment and I'd sooner replay it then think about reinstalling Torment. It had original ideas and an original setting that felt like it had substance despite being handicapped by the way areas and the plot are done. The malformed chosen one-ish MC sucked but it did have mystery and importance unlike the used condom that is the Castoff. It had characters with motivations and goals that could screw you over, the companions also suffered from being attached to the hip to the MC but at least there was some logic as to why they're sticking around. The combat was smooth, the skill system had issues but ultimately worked. It may be half-baked and the writing was amateurish at parts but that's preferable to being simply being badly designed and pretentious. And at least in it's bad moments it wasn't shitting on a beloved classic like Torment and to a lesser extent Pillars do. It kept my attention up until the moronic last chapter. The nicest thing I can say about Torment is that it inspired a youngster I know who never played Planescape to try it out, and this youngster with no nostalgia for the title could see the quality difference between the two. Also what is it with this nostalgic kickstarter games and them having divine beings that are really glorified computers?
So if I am going to play a CRPG what would I play? I finished BOG1, Icewind Dale and Torment 20 years ago, but everything is crap since then apparently. I could play BOGEE, BOG2EE, IDEE, ID2E. Is that what I should do and miss all the nice graphics of DOS2?
When I heard about the premise for the world, I was intrigued and felt a need to give the game a try. Then I got to the aforementioned circus and felt rather dizzy at everything being laid on me and a little paralyzed over where to go next. To me, it was less like getting a vast fantastical place to explore but instead a ton of homework to trudge through.
I don't agree with the Story Setup 3rd point. Creation of an interesting settings is a separate process from the stories that take place in those settings. Also, setting first THEN the story.
they kinda make it clear your not the namelesss one in this situation. thats the changing god. whitch i thought was a nice twist. as the changeing god was basically the nameless one but he does not lose his memories when he body surfs.
Hang on, your bit at 11:00 where you talk about how establishing the world first is a bad foundation. Doesn't that mean that any story set in the real world would be bad, or at least have a bad foundation because the premise would have to adhere to the setting? Isn't would building a major component of creative writing? Ok, I haven't played this game, so I'll take your world that it's poorly executed here, but I don't see how starting out by building the world is an inherently bad way of doing things.
A story is a protagonist and his wants first. Everything, including the world, should fascilitate that. When we see the plot -- and events, characters, etc. -- bend to the protagonists will, this is when we see things as being contrived. There's nothing worng with using the real world, or contemporary settings -- that's easy believability, with only very little description needed to establish a setting. The setting needs to adhere to the premise. World building is basically an exercise in description. The more fantastical the setting, the more description you need. Another major component of writing is brevity. One doesn't go around detailing or building an entire world just for the sake of it.
*A story is a protagonist and his wants first. Everything, including the world, should fascilitate that.* But doesn't that lead to contrivances? Something about your argument just doesn't sit right with me. I'm sorry but I can't quite put my finger on it. It seems like if you have a solid world, with its own consistent internal logic, you should be able to find and or craft good stories within that framework. I'm not saying it's better but it seems like it should still be valid.
Devil's advocate, on 11:19 you essentially just described Dark Souls. The Setting, from the VERY beginning of the opening cinematic is established, all proper objectives or big-bads you'll meet later on are established from the get go in 1 and 3. The premise of you as an undead character surviving a bleak existence and only progressing through the world because it's the only way forward ultimately ties into the setting as you either ignite yourself on fire or don't. To be fair protagonist and antagonist are very iffy given everything in this world is neardying or undead and the only ones left are you, PAtches, and every other selfish asshole that somehow survived entrophying. However, from a very semantic viewpoint, your still the protagonist against aggressive antagonists if only because they're willpower has been sapped and their cognizance has been diminished beyond reason. The setting, that of multiple civilizations crashing into one another to form Lordran or Londor or the Ringed City and the dualistic nature of this world through concepts of light and darkness are repeated continuously. The first flame and the "Abyss" are always the main crutch of the game. Side characters simply exist to pronounce the setting's effects on them in short sidequests before they inevitably die. Which is why I don't necessarily think these are dealbreakers. It depends more on implementation. DS gets away with it because it was always about roaming ruined civilizations as a survivalist in this cold western world that takes from eastern philosophy of reincarnation, renewel, and concepts underpinning Buddhism. And if that was never your real concern, the premise, atmosphere, and trickle-down story, you could always focus on the mechanics, customization, and gameplay of the game. And completely zone-out the lore entirely.
Wait, so they made it turn-based tactical combat, but left the encounters the same as real-time with pause style? WTF. I actually prefer turn-based over realt-time-with-pause, because the AI of companions never ceases to piss me off. But to really get turn-based correct, you need some specific elements, like a set arena, where you have specific enemies, etc. Final Fantasy Tactics did this amazingly well. But T-Ton sounds like they had no idea what they were doing.
I prefer turn-based tactical combat too ala XCOM, Valkyria Chronicles, Hard West, Expeditions: Conquistator etc., in that sense T:Ton interests me, but as smudboy pointed out the execution, both gameplay and story just aren't up there.
Huh, don't you usually dislike Chosen One narratives? I could swear you've done that at points, like in the Tyranny video, yet here you rag on the Last Castoff for not being unique.
Unfair to be critical without understanding the game. Rhin is very useful for healing the party but also she has the ability to use cyphers twice. Spoiler follows... Also if she returns to her home from the Bloom, she will return to you at your time of greatest need as fully grown warrior. Callisteges is trying to unfracture her split selves.
Ahh glad I wasn't alone. This game played with so many wild concepts I couldn't grasp, it tripped me out and I just didn't get into the game after 3 or so hours
14:00 this, This is the big problem, while Planescape torment walked the "Big trouble in little china" route and said "yup an ally just gave birth, you wanna question that? well too bad we're moving on" T:ton tries to explain what is the settings biggest asset - the unexplainable.
Oh yah i totally agree... P:ToN never stops its exposition, watering down any mystery of the world.
oh and the changing god is not a computer program. the big thing at the end is he died when he left your body at the start of the game. the thing in your head is just a back up program that thinks he is the changing god.
***Spoiler***
Regarding Rin ( I assume you finished the game with her in the party based of the footage) you can send her home by meeting some NPC in in the bloom, right next to this guy there's another NPC that recognizes you as Adahn which is a throwback to PT. Basically you get a quest here and if you do send Rin home she will come back to in your mental palace from the *future*, right when you are separated from everyone in your party.
I once had dreams of taking writing classes. Then i watched your videos.
It was a murderous death.
You give no inch.
I need to see your Alpha Protocol analysis cos as much as I liked that game i did not think it was particularly great
So maybe we can all experience some positive knowledge
Thank you
All due respect to the majority of your work, but Rhin actually has the best storyline and can become a great and powerful healer for the party. In fact, she's considered by many, to be the most essential party member for this game.
Numenera as a setting does not really work even as a tabletop setting. it just to random and not grounded like forgotten realms. planescape may be werid at times but it atlest has rules.
The question is wrong - the question "what can change the nature of a man" will give you pause to ponder the question, the pause is what matters.
"What does one life matters" is an easy question with an easy answer - not much unless that life is my own.
I thought that T:ToN was *really* great, but only when looked at in an atomic sense. I thought that the small interactions had some great writing, and those interactions together made for a unique, unforgettable experience. Multiple times, I had to walk away from the computer and consider the ethical implications of some action. I could interact with the characters and the world in a really genuine way, and that was an excellent experience. For the kind of game I wanted to play, one that had an excessive quantity of detail, minimal combat, and quests with novel resolutions, T:ToN was very good.
However, T:ToN really falls apart when considered in a general sense, looking at its complete story. Where its individual scenes can be meaningful and enjoyable, its main narrative clearly a flawed simulacrum of PS:T, and an inferior one at that. You've already iterated points against it, and I echo many of your sentiments. The setup, the ending--it was all very bland.
10:00 to be fair the world of Planescape existed long before Planescape torment was released - you do not need to create the world to support your story - but you do need to understand the world, which is what I think is T:ton biggest failing.
Well said. When everything is weird, it becomes normal. It worked for first few hours for me, I was wondered by everything they threw at me, but then it just fizzled out, because I was just expecting everything to be weird. Also weird is not enough, if it doesn't make any sense and I definitely had this feeling many times here.
*SPOILERS*
On one side, they want you to think about everything you do, on other side they tell you things are what they are, and give you no explanation. One particular line at the end struck me - after asking how did Aadiriis (one of the castoffs) abused the Tides even if she has never used Tidal Surge, the Sorrow replies: "The Surges are one manifestation of that suffering, but your kind draw and distort the energy of the Tides at a level you cannot understand." Ok, so you are killing us because we have SOME connection to these energies which aren't even explained and used in any meaningful way in the game. Great motivation.
It became a large, confusing mess, where we're supposed or inclined to care about our choices due to a color system, but whose system has no meaning or story impact. Combined with slow and uninteresting combat, and you're wondering why you're even bothering.
There are spoilers in this, but with this video being a review of the story, this comment covering major spoilers should come as no surprise.
I would argue that the story for the Last Castoff works far better only when you choose to accept that you truly are the Changing God who lost their memories after narrowly escaping their death.
This fact is cemented by the final confrontation with the end of the game, realizing that the antagonist proclaiming themselves to be the Changing God is merely an older version of yourself.
Really, I feel the story only works best when you use the old memories of your life as the Changing God and ultimately try to redeem yourself for your past sins.
This game really only would have worked best if you did not have the choice to ignore your true past, and suffers from giving the player too many choices.
I would also strongly argue against Rin being useless, and instead suggest she serves as an excellent means to enjoy that sense of redemption for your past, as long as you save her from being used and send her back home.
Still, I would say this is a good analysis of the story, and I enjoyed seeing another perspective of what took place.
This. I always got frustrated when the dialogue responses said something like "(Lie) 'I am the Changing God.'"
No, I'm not lying to these cultists. I'm being completely genuine. I _am_ the Changing God.
yeah I really tried to play this game twice - each time I got so bored after 1-2 hours of text bombs and just stopped.
I love your analysis of P:ToN. Bravo! You put into words all my thoughts of this game in a very organized, accessible way. Do you like Wasteland 3?
You know, I bitched at you and others in your last video about Tyranny and all it's issues, but for my complaints I still vastly preferred playing it over Torment and I'd sooner replay it then think about reinstalling Torment. It had original ideas and an original setting that felt like it had substance despite being handicapped by the way areas and the plot are done. The malformed chosen one-ish MC sucked but it did have mystery and importance unlike the used condom that is the Castoff. It had characters with motivations and goals that could screw you over, the companions also suffered from being attached to the hip to the MC but at least there was some logic as to why they're sticking around. The combat was smooth, the skill system had issues but ultimately worked. It may be half-baked and the writing was amateurish at parts but that's preferable to being simply being badly designed and pretentious. And at least in it's bad moments it wasn't shitting on a beloved classic like Torment and to a lesser extent Pillars do. It kept my attention up until the moronic last chapter.
The nicest thing I can say about Torment is that it inspired a youngster I know who never played Planescape to try it out, and this youngster with no nostalgia for the title could see the quality difference between the two.
Also what is it with this nostalgic kickstarter games and them having divine beings that are really glorified computers?
The more one experiences Mass Effect Andromeda the more every other story seems incredibly good in comparison.
So if I am going to play a CRPG what would I play? I finished BOG1, Icewind Dale and Torment 20 years ago, but everything is crap since then apparently. I could play BOGEE, BOG2EE, IDEE, ID2E. Is that what I should do and miss all the nice graphics of DOS2?
When I heard about the premise for the world, I was intrigued and felt a need to give the game a try. Then I got to the aforementioned circus and felt rather dizzy at everything being laid on me and a little paralyzed over where to go next. To me, it was less like getting a vast fantastical place to explore but instead a ton of homework to trudge through.
What is the song on the Style section break?
I don't agree with the Story Setup 3rd point. Creation of an interesting settings is a separate process from the stories that take place in those settings. Also, setting first THEN the story.
they kinda make it clear your not the namelesss one in this situation. thats the changing god.
whitch i thought was a nice twist. as the changeing god was basically the nameless one but he does not lose his memories when he body surfs.
Will you be doing any more plot/ character analysis series like you did for some of the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series?
Sadly, it's so true :/
I got so bored with the narrative and meaningless texts.
Hang on, your bit at 11:00 where you talk about how establishing the world first is a bad foundation. Doesn't that mean that any story set in the real world would be bad, or at least have a bad foundation because the premise would have to adhere to the setting?
Isn't would building a major component of creative writing? Ok, I haven't played this game, so I'll take your world that it's poorly executed here, but I don't see how starting out by building the world is an inherently bad way of doing things.
A story is a protagonist and his wants first. Everything, including the world, should fascilitate that.
When we see the plot -- and events, characters, etc. -- bend to the protagonists will, this is when we see things as being contrived.
There's nothing worng with using the real world, or contemporary settings -- that's easy believability, with only very little description needed to establish a setting.
The setting needs to adhere to the premise.
World building is basically an exercise in description. The more fantastical the setting, the more description you need.
Another major component of writing is brevity. One doesn't go around detailing or building an entire world just for the sake of it.
*A story is a protagonist and his wants first. Everything, including the world, should fascilitate that.*
But doesn't that lead to contrivances? Something about your argument just doesn't sit right with me. I'm sorry but I can't quite put my finger on it. It seems like if you have a solid world, with its own consistent internal logic, you should be able to find and or craft good stories within that framework. I'm not saying it's better but it seems like it should still be valid.
Devil's advocate, on 11:19 you essentially just described Dark Souls. The Setting, from the VERY beginning of the opening cinematic is established, all proper objectives or big-bads you'll meet later on are established from the get go in 1 and 3.
The premise of you as an undead character surviving a bleak existence and only progressing through the world because it's the only way forward ultimately ties into the setting as you either ignite yourself on fire or don't.
To be fair protagonist and antagonist are very iffy given everything in this world is neardying or undead and the only ones left are you, PAtches, and every other selfish asshole that somehow survived entrophying. However, from a very semantic viewpoint, your still the protagonist against aggressive antagonists if only because they're willpower has been sapped and their cognizance has been diminished beyond reason.
The setting, that of multiple civilizations crashing into one another to form Lordran or Londor or the Ringed City and the dualistic nature of this world through concepts of light and darkness are repeated continuously. The first flame and the "Abyss" are always the main crutch of the game.
Side characters simply exist to pronounce the setting's effects on them in short sidequests before they inevitably die.
Which is why I don't necessarily think these are dealbreakers. It depends more on implementation. DS gets away with it because it was always about roaming ruined civilizations as a survivalist in this cold western world that takes from eastern philosophy of reincarnation, renewel, and concepts underpinning Buddhism. And if that was never your real concern, the premise, atmosphere, and trickle-down story, you could always focus on the mechanics, customization, and gameplay of the game. And completely zone-out the lore entirely.
Did they take the characters from Baldurs Gate II? A godchild / vessel for a god main PC, a lesser female version sidekick (Immoen), a Minsc rip-off?
I wish they did had also taken the quality from BG2 well cant get everything :/
it's kinda sad how besides the shadow run games alot of the crpg revival games arnt that great.
add Disco Elysium to that list.
Wait, so they made it turn-based tactical combat, but left the encounters the same as real-time with pause style? WTF. I actually prefer turn-based over realt-time-with-pause, because the AI of companions never ceases to piss me off. But to really get turn-based correct, you need some specific elements, like a set arena, where you have specific enemies, etc. Final Fantasy Tactics did this amazingly well. But T-Ton sounds like they had no idea what they were doing.
I prefer turn-based tactical combat too ala XCOM, Valkyria Chronicles, Hard West, Expeditions: Conquistator etc., in that sense T:Ton interests me, but as smudboy pointed out the execution, both gameplay and story just aren't up there.
usually you can turn the AI off or like in DA:O customise it pretty perfectly
Huh, don't you usually dislike Chosen One narratives? I could swear you've done that at points, like in the Tyranny video, yet here you rag on the Last Castoff for not being unique.
Unfair to be critical without understanding the game. Rhin is very useful for healing the party but also she has the ability to use cyphers twice. Spoiler follows...
Also if she returns to her home from the Bloom, she will return to you at your time of greatest need as fully grown warrior. Callisteges is trying to unfracture her split selves.