They didn’t sell the “advanced decks,” they were just upgrade suggestions described right alongside the decks they sell. Ten year old me was very confused about this.
The disconnect with the en-Kor is that the rules of the time were very different. You could only play their abilities during the damage prevention window, which meant actual damage had to have been done for you to use the abilities. 6th Edition changed these sorts of effects to "shields" you had to activate in advance and it was THEN that you could just activate them a million times, literally. But when they were printed, there was no danger because you were strictly limited to how much damage was already dealt. Unfortunately 6th Edition was just a year later than this set and it was an immediate issue because Angelic Protector was in Tempest. I don't know how far out they planned the rules changes and whether they knew they were going to make, or considering to make, the damage switch when Tempest block was in design.
I feel like the goal of the "Migraine" deck was to keep Bridge on 2 and swing in with your 2/2 shadow creatures while your opponent's 3/3s were effectively removed from bridge. And if your opponent played their own 2/2 you can dark banish it. As for the counterburn "Sparkler" deck running intruder alarm, the idea is that your opponent's creatures can't untap because you counter their creature spells, and every turn they don't cast a creature spell you can burn them with buyback on end step. The card may have originally been designed as a lock piece rather than a combo piece.
That Sparkler deck was my first ever Magic purchase, such a terrible concept to hand to a 10 year old new player. If they wanted to make a burn precon, sligh was right there, running actual, plural win conditions. I guess the point was to teach new players about control, and Fanning the Flames seemed like the most interesting and intuitive way to end a locked game state?
When Patrick said that commander was "relatively new" to mtg I was ready to agree... until I realized that the first precons were from 2011. Commander has been an official part of mtg from almost 15 years out of 30. This isn't a gotcha, is just me feeling old
GB Oversold Cemetery was my first netdeck. Man I loved that deck. Wirewood Heralding for the Caller of the Claw with Braids in play was the lock! I was only like 8 years old, but fond memories. Thanks for the episode.
4/1 first strike for 2 is crazy. You guys went through all the creatures and just three or four had at least five toughness. How do you ever attack? Brutal.
Re: Mana Leak I remember in the mid-00s in Mono Blue Control in Vintage, we'd play Mana Leak over straight-up Counterspell because you could cast it off Land + Off-color Mox on turn 1. Instantly made it better when the "pay 3" was essentially a straight counterspell 80% of the time.
Great episode as usual guys. Brought me back to a wonderful memory of a B/W control deck of that era making the finals of an event where the only wincon was Anvil of Bogardan plus Megrim. I can't believe the grades are that low though. Out of ~140 cards, at least 30 are still legitimately good to playable in commander and eternal formats 25 years later... that's an insane hit ratio that stands the test of time. And in defense of Ensnaring Bridge in a precon, it was a featured rare of the set, and having a guaranteed way to get it in an era where singles were scare was useful.
I had such a different view of each set back in the day than our awesome hosts! I never played standard, and that is such a difference. I never played competitive MTG in a real sense. I was never part of a group that got the spark of "we could win in open tournaments at this game." I got that kind of competitove game spark in 2005 after I stopped playing MTG and found the Smash Bros tournament scene in college. So, to me something like "this set has limited removal" would never have even crossed my mind back in the day. To me, it wouldn't have mattered; I still have all my old removal cards! The only time I did something other than "all cards ever printed are legal" was as Sr.s in HighSchool; when we did a few booster drafts. That was a very cool and very different MTG experience, and I think I would have come around to the way of thinking that serious competitive players had if I'd stuck with it. I think the way my group played with all sets all the time also might have been why I didn't click as hard with sets stories when they were really specific story and character beats, to me that just not what MTG was. To me the game was settings like Ice Age that existed as ideas I could visit in my imagination
The reason they did the "2 or more opponents" lands was they needed to print a replacement for the hard to acquire dual lands, but they didn't want the new card to be bought up by legacy and vintage players. When you think about it, this was the best way to do it. It wasn't lazy it was trying to be surgical.
Well, ABU duals are still better because they're typed, and the whole idea of printing "replacements" is kind of flawed because now people can just play both the original and the new version in the same deck.
@@pdieraue that's true, but the people who can't afford original duals but can afford these (that's most edh players) will still have a super powerful land to put in their decks.
@@PopoTCG we all wish that was possible, but wotc has decided they won't, and at this point I don't think anything will change their minds. Accepting that and moving on will make us all happier.
Not particularly relevant, but the thing that nobody thinks about is that "2-Or-More-Opponents lands" also work in 2HG (as well as fringe stuff like Star, Emperor, etc.). Just think it's kind of cool, and way more creative than something like Command Tower that just straight-up doesn't work in any format other than Commander.
Magic had way too many miserable "you don't play" cards in it at the time in general but look at those precons. Ensnaring Bridge and Portcullis? YIKES. Two Propaganda and a stack of counterspells? And you know since removal was so light in those decks that those game-warping "you don't do a lot" cards were never leaving that battlefield once they resolved.
I think it's very interesting how the various ways the game was played impacted this. At least to me and my friend group, the whole Type2/Standard thing and worrying a about which blocks were current was so foreign. We could not have told you which sets were in rotation, we never went to a formal tournament, we just played with the cards we owned. From that pov it really didn't matter how well a particular set was balanced. I'm not saying that was the best way, or that MTG should have catered to that, it's just an interesting pov. I think early days MTG did cater more to that, and modern day mtg caters more to standard balanced play, and legacy formats that are also more balanced. It's wildly interesting for me to look back at the old sets and consider then from the pov of how they were designed from a stand-alone pov
12:13 The mono black stax deck with Ensnaring Bridge is great and brutal. It plays Bottomless Pit to empty both players' hands, and 3x Megrim as a win-con after you lock them out of the game.
Maybe I’m wrong here, but with Pursuit of Knowledge I would think it has good synergy with Sylvan Library. Assuming neither one gets disenchanted, on your draw step you skip all three draws and get seven. Of would this not work since Library says ‘you may’?
I don't think they sold the "advanced decks". It was a guide on how you turn the precon to be a Standard T2 deck to play in a tournament, using cards from all the "current" formats.
Re: Ensnaring Bridge I think the design would make a lot more sense if it read "Creatures with power greater than the number of cards in their controller's hands cannot attack." Gives the opponent some agency in terms of getting out from under it, and also gives beatdown decks a reason not to dump their entire hand.
now that i think about it, i believe that portcullis was actually insane in limited? like you drop it on turn 2 and now your opponent can't play any more creatures for the rest of the game?
That sparkler deck needed modifications but was honestly fun to play. Lock people down and blast them apart. Of course oppenents HATED it, so I used to only bring my version out against people who were being arrogant and then see how long I could string it out for.
I play since Fallen Empires and in my memory Stronghold was received quite well, certainly better than FE and HL for instance (which Patrick gave the same rating). Also I really liked the block format where mechanics were not just around for one set but would be expanded upon in follow up sets.
I agree the story is not the greatest but I gotta admit there is a certain nostalgia for this era of wacky sci-fi fantasy that was everywhere at the time.
What would happen in commander if you play the “two or more opponents” land and there only one opponent left alive? Would that “shut down” the land, making it enter tapped?
@@TheResleevables awesome! I can't wait! (as a side note, it would be an incredible addition if it was possible to interview some of the participants in these tournaments. These early tournaments it may be pretty difficult to find people but im sure we'd all love to hear some of the actual players logic behind card choices)
I started played right when Stronghold came out and one distinct memory I have is Inquest calling Dream Halls the worst card in the set. Awakening was the rare in one of my first packs and I read it infinite times and had no clue what it actually did.
You ever have one of those dumb little things that you can't get over? It never made sense that Gerrard recognizes Volrath by voice. Like voices change a lot over the amount of timepassed between seeing each other for normal people, but the dude has been corrupted and physically altered beyond recognition and the idea that none of that would affect the vocal tract is insane. There is so much that affects how sound is produced, resonates, and propagates that there is no way it would be recognizable. I know this is the most minor of dumb things but for reasons I can't explain it bothered me then and never stopped bothering me.
I think Patrick is a little unfair to cards like Hermit Druid. Is it overpowered and never should have printed? Yes, of course. However, as far as I know, by this point in time a deck whose entire gameplan was to dump everything in the graveyard and then win had never existed and maybe couldn't exist with the card pool of the time. You could say that they should have expected something like that but magic is the first tcg so I think it might be hard to come up with something like that. Good episode though! Stronghold definitely not the best set.
Stronghold was NOT the last set with non-colored set symbols for denoting rarity -- that honor goes to Portal Second Age. While the lore is awful, again, it truly reached epic proportions of hokeyness in the comic books. My gawd they are bad. I'm glad to see you made fun of them -- they deserve to be made fun of.
This is my surprised face that Patrick Sullivan did not pick Spike Feeder as coolest card in the set, a tournament staple against mono red aggro decks...
This probably isn't said enough.
The video editor is doing a really good job here.
Patrick ever-so-gradually transforming into an old timey prospector with each passing episode.
They didn’t sell the “advanced decks,” they were just upgrade suggestions described right alongside the decks they sell. Ten year old me was very confused about this.
(Cedric) My team did some more digging on this and you're 100% correct. Apologies for the mistake.
I remember cracking packs and desperately hoping for any of the cards from the advanced lists for my Nemesis precons. 😂
@@TheResleevables that packaging didn’t do you guys any favors there!
The disconnect with the en-Kor is that the rules of the time were very different. You could only play their abilities during the damage prevention window, which meant actual damage had to have been done for you to use the abilities. 6th Edition changed these sorts of effects to "shields" you had to activate in advance and it was THEN that you could just activate them a million times, literally. But when they were printed, there was no danger because you were strictly limited to how much damage was already dealt. Unfortunately 6th Edition was just a year later than this set and it was an immediate issue because Angelic Protector was in Tempest. I don't know how far out they planned the rules changes and whether they knew they were going to make, or considering to make, the damage switch when Tempest block was in design.
I feel like the goal of the "Migraine" deck was to keep Bridge on 2 and swing in with your 2/2 shadow creatures while your opponent's 3/3s were effectively removed from bridge. And if your opponent played their own 2/2 you can dark banish it.
As for the counterburn "Sparkler" deck running intruder alarm, the idea is that your opponent's creatures can't untap because you counter their creature spells, and every turn they don't cast a creature spell you can burn them with buyback on end step. The card may have originally been designed as a lock piece rather than a combo piece.
That Sparkler deck was my first ever Magic purchase, such a terrible concept to hand to a 10 year old new player. If they wanted to make a burn precon, sligh was right there, running actual, plural win conditions. I guess the point was to teach new players about control, and Fanning the Flames seemed like the most interesting and intuitive way to end a locked game state?
"Is this card [Evacuation] legal in Commander?"
"Scryfall says yes... I'm a little surprised about that"
*Laughs in Cyclonic Rift*
I live and breathe for this show.
When Patrick said that commander was "relatively new" to mtg I was ready to agree... until I realized that the first precons were from 2011. Commander has been an official part of mtg from almost 15 years out of 30. This isn't a gotcha, is just me feeling old
"Moog Warrens"
Oh, that's where they breed the synthesizers. Had no idea.
GB Oversold Cemetery was my first netdeck. Man I loved that deck. Wirewood Heralding for the Caller of the Claw with Braids in play was the lock! I was only like 8 years old, but fond memories. Thanks for the episode.
Gerrard is basically the Leeroy Jenkins of the MtG franchise.
Sullivan now that I know that Gerrard is Zapp, I am so much more into the Weatherlight saga hahaha
4/1 first strike for 2 is crazy. You guys went through all the creatures and just three or four had at least five toughness. How do you ever attack? Brutal.
Re: Mana Leak
I remember in the mid-00s in Mono Blue Control in Vintage, we'd play Mana Leak over straight-up Counterspell because you could cast it off Land + Off-color Mox on turn 1. Instantly made it better when the "pay 3" was essentially a straight counterspell 80% of the time.
Great episode as usual guys. Brought me back to a wonderful memory of a B/W control deck of that era making the finals of an event where the only wincon was Anvil of Bogardan plus Megrim. I can't believe the grades are that low though. Out of ~140 cards, at least 30 are still legitimately good to playable in commander and eternal formats 25 years later... that's an insane hit ratio that stands the test of time. And in defense of Ensnaring Bridge in a precon, it was a featured rare of the set, and having a guaranteed way to get it in an era where singles were scare was useful.
In a sense, they have made modern-day licids: The reconfigure creatures from Neon Dynasty.
In a similar sense, enlist is modern-day banding.
‘Victuals’ is the word from which the more casual ‘vittles’ was derived.
"Victual" is even actually pronounced "vittle", not remotely like it's spelled.
I love Patrick dunking on Gerrard. Patrick making fun of things is one of my favorite things to hear on commentary and in the podcast.
Ced absolutely slaying the headwear game
I had such a different view of each set back in the day than our awesome hosts! I never played standard, and that is such a difference. I never played competitive MTG in a real sense. I was never part of a group that got the spark of "we could win in open tournaments at this game." I got that kind of competitove game spark in 2005 after I stopped playing MTG and found the Smash Bros tournament scene in college. So, to me something like "this set has limited removal" would never have even crossed my mind back in the day. To me, it wouldn't have mattered; I still have all my old removal cards! The only time I did something other than "all cards ever printed are legal" was as Sr.s in HighSchool; when we did a few booster drafts. That was a very cool and very different MTG experience, and I think I would have come around to the way of thinking that serious competitive players had if I'd stuck with it. I think the way my group played with all sets all the time also might have been why I didn't click as hard with sets stories when they were really specific story and character beats, to me that just not what MTG was. To me the game was settings like Ice Age that existed as ideas I could visit in my imagination
The reason they did the "2 or more opponents" lands was they needed to print a replacement for the hard to acquire dual lands, but they didn't want the new card to be bought up by legacy and vintage players.
When you think about it, this was the best way to do it. It wasn't lazy it was trying to be surgical.
Nah it was lazy. Just get rid of the useless reserved list
Well, ABU duals are still better because they're typed, and the whole idea of printing "replacements" is kind of flawed because now people can just play both the original and the new version in the same deck.
@@pdieraue that's true, but the people who can't afford original duals but can afford these (that's most edh players) will still have a super powerful land to put in their decks.
@@PopoTCG we all wish that was possible, but wotc has decided they won't, and at this point I don't think anything will change their minds. Accepting that and moving on will make us all happier.
Not particularly relevant, but the thing that nobody thinks about is that "2-Or-More-Opponents lands" also work in 2HG (as well as fringe stuff like Star, Emperor, etc.). Just think it's kind of cool, and way more creative than something like Command Tower that just straight-up doesn't work in any format other than Commander.
Magic had way too many miserable "you don't play" cards in it at the time in general but look at those precons. Ensnaring Bridge and Portcullis? YIKES. Two Propaganda and a stack of counterspells? And you know since removal was so light in those decks that those game-warping "you don't do a lot" cards were never leaving that battlefield once they resolved.
Wow, do you watch the episodes too???
I think it's very interesting how the various ways the game was played impacted this. At least to me and my friend group, the whole Type2/Standard thing and worrying a about which blocks were current was so foreign. We could not have told you which sets were in rotation, we never went to a formal tournament, we just played with the cards we owned. From that pov it really didn't matter how well a particular set was balanced. I'm not saying that was the best way, or that MTG should have catered to that, it's just an interesting pov. I think early days MTG did cater more to that, and modern day mtg caters more to standard balanced play, and legacy formats that are also more balanced. It's wildly interesting for me to look back at the old sets and consider then from the pov of how they were designed from a stand-alone pov
Certainly the set with Dream Halls, Intruder Alarm and Mox Diamond will be reviewed favorably. Right, Anakin?
If licids work properly on MtGO that is truly amazing and they should have paid whoever programmed them to stick around.
love these episodes so much. thank u guys
12:13 The mono black stax deck with Ensnaring Bridge is great and brutal. It plays Bottomless Pit to empty both players' hands, and 3x Megrim as a win-con after you lock them out of the game.
Was awesome seeing you in SanFran Cedric! And always glad for another episode of you and Patrick!
1:35:20 come play Premodern with us Cedric.
(Cedric) Absolutely not
Kind of want to see the precon battles!
Maybe I’m wrong here, but with Pursuit of Knowledge I would think it has good synergy with Sylvan Library.
Assuming neither one gets disenchanted, on your draw step you skip all three draws and get seven.
Of would this not work since Library says ‘you may’?
It works!
Golgari Guy Patrick is a mood
stronghold gives me goosebumps
Yay, I'm caught up and get to be excited about releases now!
visuals game leveled up from the earlier episdoes
I don't think they sold the "advanced decks". It was a guide on how you turn the precon to be a Standard T2 deck to play in a tournament, using cards from all the "current" formats.
Re: Ensnaring Bridge
I think the design would make a lot more sense if it read "Creatures with power greater than the number of cards in their controller's hands cannot attack." Gives the opponent some agency in terms of getting out from under it, and also gives beatdown decks a reason not to dump their entire hand.
Putting every single story beat on a card is maybe the thing I miss the most about older magic sets.
Sure we had to wait till 2024 to understand that's what they were doing, but it's really cool!
Cedric a format where hermit druid and dream halls are both legal and balanced is premodern.
6:42 but we’re still waiting on Volrath’s Shapeshifter to work.
One day, we'll be able to play Hermit FEB. One day. :(
I loved the sparkler precon deck! I played it so much, my store had precon tournaments and it annihilated my friends.
STRONGHOLD IN ARENA ON MY DECK TOMORROW!!
now that i think about it, i believe that portcullis was actually insane in limited? like you drop it on turn 2 and now your opponent can't play any more creatures for the rest of the game?
The Spikes was the first Mtg product I've got!
That sparkler deck needed modifications but was honestly fun to play. Lock people down and blast them apart. Of course oppenents HATED it, so I used to only bring my version out against people who were being arrogant and then see how long I could string it out for.
This is great stuff, I love your videos!
I play since Fallen Empires and in my memory Stronghold was received quite well, certainly better than FE and HL for instance (which Patrick gave the same rating). Also I really liked the block format where mechanics were not just around for one set but would be expanded upon in follow up sets.
Block constructed was both weird and awesome. I don't miss it per se, but it was definitely hilarious to play to qualify for the pt.
26:37 “resourcefulness” is the word you were looking for
I agree the story is not the greatest but I gotta admit there is a certain nostalgia for this era of wacky sci-fi fantasy that was everywhere at the time.
Hornet Cannon makes Hornet tokens but Hornet Queen makes Insect tokens.
It's funny Patrick mentioned Marolk Rosewaters design philosophy. Look where the game is today haha
Notable cards!
Hermit druid is legal in Premodern. It's a good way to play with it
What would happen in commander if you play the “two or more opponents” land and there only one opponent left alive? Would that “shut down” the land, making it enter tapped?
sacred ground was in oath decks in extended with the enlightend tutor engine like BOB Mahers winning chicago deck
should update the TOA ad since it is now Pioneer RCQ season, not standard
I was that Counter Phoenix Player with intuution to find my Phonix
Wouldn’t Licids just work in a slightly different way than Mutate creatures do? Doesn’t seem like it would be impossible to implement on Magic Arena.
Pursuit of knowledge with proliferate counters maybe?
When is the next Tournament Edition? Those were my favorite. I didn't think we'd get 2 whole sets without a tournament inbetween.
(Cedric) Pro Tour: Columbus (1996) should be coming out next week
@@TheResleevables awesome! I can't wait! (as a side note, it would be an incredible addition if it was possible to interview some of the participants in these tournaments. These early tournaments it may be pretty difficult to find people but im sure we'd all love to hear some of the actual players logic behind card choices)
Awesome episode, but why was the card ordering so weird in the image gallery in the end? The white cards were distributed weirdly in between.
(Cedric) Mistakes were (accidentially) made
Sully what do you think of the Avs this playoff segment?
I wish WotC would release more remasters of old sets/blocks.
These old sets could score much higher with another pass of cleaning them up
Isn't Bestow just the fixed version of Licid?
I started played right when Stronghold came out and one distinct memory I have is Inquest calling Dream Halls the worst card in the set. Awakening was the rare in one of my first packs and I read it infinite times and had no clue what it actually did.
Wasn't bestow the fixed licid?
need a worship in that sb
You ever have one of those dumb little things that you can't get over? It never made sense that Gerrard recognizes Volrath by voice. Like voices change a lot over the amount of timepassed between seeing each other for normal people, but the dude has been corrupted and physically altered beyond recognition and the idea that none of that would affect the vocal tract is insane. There is so much that affects how sound is produced, resonates, and propagates that there is no way it would be recognizable. I know this is the most minor of dumb things but for reasons I can't explain it bothered me then and never stopped bothering me.
Ironically Volrath's stronghold would be fine in Standard bc everything exiles anyway.
Each deck has an "advanced version"
Gimme Vuel, gimme vire, gimme that which I desire
Cinema sins-ing the lore section is pretty funny
Just starting but I am hoping there is an appropriate amount of time dedicated to the pronunciation of portcullis
Why? It's a real word with a pronunciation that can be Googled.
is there more then 1 way to pronounce portcullis
The word "victual" is objectively too hard to say or write, which is how we got "vittles" 🤓
I think Patrick is a little unfair to cards like Hermit Druid. Is it overpowered and never should have printed? Yes, of course. However, as far as I know, by this point in time a deck whose entire gameplan was to dump everything in the graveyard and then win had never existed and maybe couldn't exist with the card pool of the time. You could say that they should have expected something like that but magic is the first tcg so I think it might be hard to come up with something like that.
Good episode though! Stronghold definitely not the best set.
Megrim was good vs cycling when Saga came out.
Tidal Surge...bad card now going into a Hylda commander deck. lol
The lore doesn’t say anything about the significance of Mox Diamond
Cards.
Stronghold was NOT the last set with non-colored set symbols for denoting rarity -- that honor goes to Portal Second Age.
While the lore is awful, again, it truly reached epic proportions of hokeyness in the comic books. My gawd they are bad. I'm glad to see you made fun of them -- they deserve to be made fun of.
This is my surprised face that Patrick Sullivan did not pick Spike Feeder as coolest card in the set, a tournament staple against mono red aggro decks...