As I understand it, the answer cannot be that clear cut. For one, Eren is shown to be rather special in his unwillingness to give up, in his search for freedom and his conviction to fight for it. It is unknown, whether the other inheritors of the Founding Titan after Karl Fritz were comparable to him in this regard. I am not convinced of that notion. On the other hand, the holder of the Founding Titan can access the Paths and the memories of former titan shifters, all at an instance, given the timeless nature of the Paths. In a way, their thoughts and memories are as one. If Eren had both the Founder and the Attack Titan, the fight might not merely be between Karl Fritz' will and Eren's will, but rather between Karl Fritz' will and the combined wills of all holders of the Attack Titan, both in the past and in the future, tipping the balance. In the end, Karl Fritz was a human, not a god whose will is naturally above those of other mortals. Though very strong-willed, the power behind his vow came from the powers of the Founding Titan and the Coordinate. It stands to reason that a stronger-willed individual than him, with access to the same power, should be able to break it.
I think you're understating how strong the Karl Fritz's vow is. It completely takes over whoever has the Founding Titan. Historia even thought Frieda was possessed by another person because of her behavioral changes and depressive episodes. The Attack Titan never displayed similar influence over its hosts. Grisha's personality remained the same after inheriting the Attack Titan. In Chapter 120, Grisha even gave up on the mission and in Chapter 121 even showed regret in completing the mission. The founding titan can accesses the pas, present, and future, but we know the vow limits that ability because Frieda didn't know about the Attack Titan. My theory was that the vow is preventing users from wielding the founder in a way inconsistent with Karl's desires. What that means is for Eren to access the Will of all holders of the Attack Titan, the vow would need to already be broken. And to do that, he'd only have his own will and the memories he receives from the future. On the topic of Eren's will. It's difficult to quantify how strong Eren's will is relative to other inheritors of the Founding Titan. And we have no idea of how strong Karl's will is. But what makes the King's vow deadly is it doesn't let up. Frieda is shown resisting it but Karl continuously bends her to his will. Eren would be fighting against it constantly while having his personality slowly hijacked by it.
@@thenenhunter2600 Regarding the first argument, I believe, a lot of it depends on the technicalities of how the vow influences the wills of the inheritors of the Founding Titan. What exactly happens whenever Karl Fritz' will takes over? From my understanding, there are two alternative explanations: In explanation a), everytime, the vow activates, the consciousness of the current holder of the Founding Titan is transported into the Paths dimension where, analogous to Zeke and Eren, the timeless presence of Karl Fritz brainwashes the holder through showing them the thousands of years of destruction and death done by the Eldian Empire and the titans. As the Paths are timeless, every inheritor's will will break eventually if they are unable to overcome Karl Fritz in the Paths. So, everytime, we see the vow activate, what seems to us as an instant, are subjectively the consequences of thousands of years of brainwashing for the holders of the Founding Titan. Here, what would make Eren special is (as we see in both the manga and the anime) his ability to see similar death and destruction of the Rumbling, being psychologically broken by it, but still choosing to go through with it. The brainwashing "material" Karl Fritz has to offer might prove insufficient in that case. In explanation b), Karl Fritz literally takes control of the current inheritor of the Founding Titan through the Paths whenever the vow activates, making them essentially a puppet and prisoner in their own bodies. That would be far harder to prevent from happening, but I do not think, this explanation is the case given the fact that Frieda lost to Grisha in their fight due to her inexperience. If Karl Fritz took his vow seriously, wouldn't he himself have taken control of the fight and defeated Grisha with his superior experience and special powers of the Founder? Regarding the second argument, that is not how I see it. I do not believe the vow makes the inheritors per se unable to use the full powers of the Founding Titan. Rather, it works indirectly, by making them unable to WANT to use the Founder's powers in ways inconsistent with Karl Fritz' will, again through the brainwashing described in explanation a). I might be wrong with this assessment however. Regarding the third argument, I would also refer to my points in explanation a). The brainwashing "material" might be insufficient for a personalilty like Eren's. But it all depends on many more factors, of course (like the point in time where the vow would first activate within Eren, how much Karl Fritz himself actually knew about the future, etc.).
@@bendo9162 I think both of you are forgetting that Zeke successfully overcame the vow while waiting for Eren to awaken in the Paths. At least those are his words which I have no reason to believe are false. Zeke spent what is probably a subjective life time waiting for Eren in the Paths. Perhaps the only thing that stops other holders of the founder from overpowering the vow is that they simply do not have enough time to work through out.
I think Eren would be able to break it by himself. The reason I think this, is because Uri and Frieda are good people. Sure, everyone wants the titans to die, but inheriting the Founding Titan, means one learns about the outside world, and that to save Eldia requires the death of a lot of people. I don't think Uri and Frieda could do that, so the Vow could exploit their doubt and convince them. Even after inheriting the Titan, Frieda was able to somewhat fight back. And we know Frieda was a good person, who wanted to help people. I think her ability to attempt to fight back, was due to her having trouble reconciling the death of so many, with the Vow saying this was peace. Eren on the other hand, that little psycopath, never believed in helping people out of the goodness of his heart. Eren believed in achieving freedom, and whatever stood in the way of that, was his enemy. When he learned titans weren't the enemy, but people were, he didn't hesitate declaring them his enemies and wishing death upon them. In my mind, it boils down to this. The Vow is founded in compassion for everyone. People like Uri, who wanted to use the Founding titan to save everyone, or Frieda, who spent time with the product of her father's affair when noone else wanted to, they are people who can sympathise with this ideology, and so they fall victim to the Vow. Eren, as stated, is a borderline psycopath. The Vow has nothing to work with, because Eren would never sacrifice himself or his friends to save people that wants to kill him and his friends.
Historia *eats eren* Eren: historia this the pure truth if you kill you're *OUR* enemies you'll achieve freedom through *THE RUMBLING* *Karl fritz will kinks in* Fritz: Noooo! Through *the euthanasia* plan . To atone for our unforgible sins and end this cycle of hatred- Eren infuriated: You'll *flatten* the world to its very last inch! Fritz: Our peaceful extintiction is the only way out! Eren Loosing hes patience: its not fair for my people to loose their lives! For what our mostorns of ancestors did! Fritz: so what do you plan to resolsive everything!? Eren glaring down at fritz with the rumblin sound in the back: for my people achieve their liberty I/she will *Kill every life outside this island* Thats what I think it would turn out to be in my headcanon both have very strong wills and would constanling be verbally fighting inside historia head meanwhile historia will be slowy but shorly become insane loosing herself in that tomorl of ideologies. Having multiple mental and emotinal breakdowns.
I think he could overcome the vow pretty simply. It would take a long time, but the timeless space of the paths provides the user with infinite time to think through it or attempt figuring out how to break it. In the manga and anime, Zeke was like "oh the vow renouncing war? It was dumb and I figured out how to get rid of it before you even got here." So I think the idea that it's impossible to overcome is directly contradicted by the manga and anime. Also the fact that there's an Eren from the future giving present Eren future memories telling him to resist the founder in the first place means that he eventually did overcome the vow, because if he didn't, then future Eren would just be telling his past self not to resist
great video i have a few ideas the best titan combinations (which titans would work the best together / produce the most ptentially powerful shifter.) what if eren became king of the walls intend of historia (he kills rods titan.)
Hey I have found ur channel and binged it multiple times again and again and you are amazing at producing aot videos. Are you going to make more aot videos or carry on some what if’s
Probably both. Right now I'm focused on what ifs but I enjoy doing thought experiment videos. What Ifs are enjoyable to make but they take a while so I might squeeze in videos like this every now and then.
could Zeke break the vow renouncing war if he made contact with ymir and commanded her to do so then he could take erens titans and achieving his plans and "saving"eren in the prosses
That would work, Karl is using the paths for the vow and Ymir could stop him. But, once Zeke gets to the paths, he has full control so breaking the vow is unnecessary.
I think future Eren would go to any length to achieve freedom from the vow, that being said just telling his past self to resist probably wouldn't be the end of it since he has or will have the power to change the past. That's my understanding at least. So i think Eren would do the same things like killing his mother for the correct outcome just on a larger scale, this time going after his closest friends and that may include Mikasa and Armin though I'm not sure he would do that. In other words Eren would probably kill just enough people to not break himself but still sow the seeds of fanatic belief in fighting so that when he had to fight back against Fritz vow to renounce war he would to the last atom of his being fight against those restraints until it shattered itself. That all being said Im not an expert on the time loops and time paradoxes AOT has so maybe he couldn't fight back at all in the future since he already was under King Fritz control this entire time? To conclude, this was biased on Erens behalf because I like him and his fighting spirit, everyone loves an underdog story and all that. Anyways hope you found this helpful in some way and buh-bye.
As I understand it, the answer cannot be that clear cut. For one, Eren is shown to be rather special in his unwillingness to give up, in his search for freedom and his conviction to fight for it. It is unknown, whether the other inheritors of the Founding Titan after Karl Fritz were comparable to him in this regard. I am not convinced of that notion. On the other hand, the holder of the Founding Titan can access the Paths and the memories of former titan shifters, all at an instance, given the timeless nature of the Paths. In a way, their thoughts and memories are as one. If Eren had both the Founder and the Attack Titan, the fight might not merely be between Karl Fritz' will and Eren's will, but rather between Karl Fritz' will and the combined wills of all holders of the Attack Titan, both in the past and in the future, tipping the balance. In the end, Karl Fritz was a human, not a god whose will is naturally above those of other mortals. Though very strong-willed, the power behind his vow came from the powers of the Founding Titan and the Coordinate. It stands to reason that a stronger-willed individual than him, with access to the same power, should be able to break it.
I think you're understating how strong the Karl Fritz's vow is. It completely takes over whoever has the Founding Titan. Historia even thought Frieda was possessed by another person because of her behavioral changes and depressive episodes. The Attack Titan never displayed similar influence over its hosts. Grisha's personality remained the same after inheriting the Attack Titan. In Chapter 120, Grisha even gave up on the mission and in Chapter 121 even showed regret in completing the mission.
The founding titan can accesses the pas, present, and future, but we know the vow limits that ability because Frieda didn't know about the Attack Titan. My theory was that the vow is preventing users from wielding the founder in a way inconsistent with Karl's desires. What that means is for Eren to access the Will of all holders of the Attack Titan, the vow would need to already be broken. And to do that, he'd only have his own will and the memories he receives from the future.
On the topic of Eren's will. It's difficult to quantify how strong Eren's will is relative to other inheritors of the Founding Titan. And we have no idea of how strong Karl's will is. But what makes the King's vow deadly is it doesn't let up. Frieda is shown resisting it but Karl continuously bends her to his will. Eren would be fighting against it constantly while having his personality slowly hijacked by it.
@@thenenhunter2600 Regarding the first argument, I believe, a lot of it depends on the technicalities of how the vow influences the wills of the inheritors of the Founding Titan. What exactly happens whenever Karl Fritz' will takes over? From my understanding, there are two alternative explanations:
In explanation a), everytime, the vow activates, the consciousness of the current holder of the Founding Titan is transported into the Paths dimension where, analogous to Zeke and Eren, the timeless presence of Karl Fritz brainwashes the holder through showing them the thousands of years of destruction and death done by the Eldian Empire and the titans. As the Paths are timeless, every inheritor's will will break eventually if they are unable to overcome Karl Fritz in the Paths. So, everytime, we see the vow activate, what seems to us as an instant, are subjectively the consequences of thousands of years of brainwashing for the holders of the Founding Titan. Here, what would make Eren special is (as we see in both the manga and the anime) his ability to see similar death and destruction of the Rumbling, being psychologically broken by it, but still choosing to go through with it. The brainwashing "material" Karl Fritz has to offer might prove insufficient in that case.
In explanation b), Karl Fritz literally takes control of the current inheritor of the Founding Titan through the Paths whenever the vow activates, making them essentially a puppet and prisoner in their own bodies. That would be far harder to prevent from happening, but I do not think, this explanation is the case given the fact that Frieda lost to Grisha in their fight due to her inexperience. If Karl Fritz took his vow seriously, wouldn't he himself have taken control of the fight and defeated Grisha with his superior experience and special powers of the Founder?
Regarding the second argument, that is not how I see it. I do not believe the vow makes the inheritors per se unable to use the full powers of the Founding Titan. Rather, it works indirectly, by making them unable to WANT to use the Founder's powers in ways inconsistent with Karl Fritz' will, again through the brainwashing described in explanation a). I might be wrong with this assessment however.
Regarding the third argument, I would also refer to my points in explanation a). The brainwashing "material" might be insufficient for a personalilty like Eren's. But it all depends on many more factors, of course (like the point in time where the vow would first activate within Eren, how much Karl Fritz himself actually knew about the future, etc.).
shi aint reading all that
@@bendo9162
I think both of you are forgetting that Zeke successfully overcame the vow while waiting for Eren to awaken in the Paths. At least those are his words which I have no reason to believe are false. Zeke spent what is probably a subjective life time waiting for Eren in the Paths. Perhaps the only thing that stops other holders of the founder from overpowering the vow is that they simply do not have enough time to work through out.
I think Eren would be able to break it by himself. The reason I think this, is because Uri and Frieda are good people. Sure, everyone wants the titans to die, but inheriting the Founding Titan, means one learns about the outside world, and that to save Eldia requires the death of a lot of people. I don't think Uri and Frieda could do that, so the Vow could exploit their doubt and convince them.
Even after inheriting the Titan, Frieda was able to somewhat fight back. And we know Frieda was a good person, who wanted to help people. I think her ability to attempt to fight back, was due to her having trouble reconciling the death of so many, with the Vow saying this was peace.
Eren on the other hand, that little psycopath, never believed in helping people out of the goodness of his heart. Eren believed in achieving freedom, and whatever stood in the way of that, was his enemy. When he learned titans weren't the enemy, but people were, he didn't hesitate declaring them his enemies and wishing death upon them.
In my mind, it boils down to this. The Vow is founded in compassion for everyone. People like Uri, who wanted to use the Founding titan to save everyone, or Frieda, who spent time with the product of her father's affair when noone else wanted to, they are people who can sympathise with this ideology, and so they fall victim to the Vow. Eren, as stated, is a borderline psycopath. The Vow has nothing to work with, because Eren would never sacrifice himself or his friends to save people that wants to kill him and his friends.
Historia *eats eren*
Eren: historia this the pure truth if you kill you're *OUR* enemies you'll achieve freedom through *THE RUMBLING*
*Karl fritz will kinks in*
Fritz: Noooo! Through *the euthanasia* plan . To atone for our unforgible sins and end this cycle of hatred-
Eren infuriated: You'll *flatten* the world to its very last inch!
Fritz: Our peaceful extintiction is the only way out!
Eren Loosing hes patience: its not fair for my people to loose their lives! For what our mostorns of ancestors did!
Fritz: so what do you plan to resolsive everything!?
Eren glaring down at fritz with the rumblin sound in the back: for my people achieve their liberty I/she will *Kill every life outside this island*
Thats what I think it would turn out to be in my headcanon both have very strong wills and would constanling be verbally fighting inside historia head meanwhile historia will be slowy but shorly become insane loosing herself in that tomorl of ideologies. Having multiple mental and emotinal breakdowns.
I think he could overcome the vow pretty simply. It would take a long time, but the timeless space of the paths provides the user with infinite time to think through it or attempt figuring out how to break it. In the manga and anime, Zeke was like "oh the vow renouncing war? It was dumb and I figured out how to get rid of it before you even got here." So I think the idea that it's impossible to overcome is directly contradicted by the manga and anime. Also the fact that there's an Eren from the future giving present Eren future memories telling him to resist the founder in the first place means that he eventually did overcome the vow, because if he didn't, then future Eren would just be telling his past self not to resist
This guys is the reason attack on titan will go on for years keep up the hard work!
A unexpeted surprise but a welcome one.
Love these aot videos keep them coming
The vow only applied to the royal family, it didnt apply to normal subjects of Ymir, hence why Eren can use the abilities of the founding Titan
I know, this is just a scenario where he does have royal blood.
@@thenenhunter2600 ah I getcha 👍
great video i have a few ideas
the best titan combinations (which titans would work the best together / produce the most ptentially powerful shifter.)
what if eren became king of the walls intend of historia (he kills rods titan.)
Hey I have found ur channel and binged it multiple times again and again and you are amazing at producing aot videos. Are you going to make more aot videos or carry on some what if’s
Probably both. Right now I'm focused on what ifs but I enjoy doing thought experiment videos. What Ifs are enjoyable to make but they take a while so I might squeeze in videos like this every now and then.
@@thenenhunter2600 I genuinely think your the best aot youtuber who makes what it’s at the moment
could Zeke break the vow renouncing war if he made contact with ymir and commanded her to do so
then he could take erens titans and achieving his plans and "saving"eren in the prosses
That would work, Karl is using the paths for the vow and Ymir could stop him. But, once Zeke gets to the paths, he has full control so breaking the vow is unnecessary.
Zeke wouldn’t need to plus he loved Eren as a brother so he wouldn’t do that.
You should do what if Reiner and zeke went to rescue Annie
I think future Eren would go to any length to achieve freedom from the vow, that being said just telling his past self to resist probably wouldn't be the end of it since he has or will have the power to change the past. That's my understanding at least. So i think Eren would do the same things like killing his mother for the correct outcome just on a larger scale, this time going after his closest friends and that may include Mikasa and Armin though I'm not sure he would do that.
In other words Eren would probably kill just enough people to not break himself but still sow the seeds of fanatic belief in fighting so that when he had to fight back against Fritz vow to renounce war he would to the last atom of his being fight against those restraints until it shattered itself.
That all being said Im not an expert on the time loops and time paradoxes AOT has so maybe he couldn't fight back at all in the future since he already was under King Fritz control this entire time? To conclude, this was biased on Erens behalf because I like him and his fighting spirit, everyone loves an underdog story and all that. Anyways hope you found this helpful in some way and buh-bye.
I thought of two what if’s that people don’t think of like what if Sasha didn’t die or if colt didn’t die
I lean more towards colt because colt legitly shouldn’t have died
Quick question: Did something similar happen to Zeke when he inherited the Beast Titan? Or am I misremembering something?
I think you're misremembering something. But Zeke learned how to bypass the vow from the previous Beast Titan wielder, Ksaver
@@thenenhunter2600 that i did remember. Thanks
eren's will is way stronger wdym💀💀💀
eren Fav Meat rider 1#####