I have heard a few good class D amps, and in my opinion they all sounded flat in the midrange frequencies. Don't get me wrong they sounded great on the lows especially with really good and tight woofer control which can be a positive or a negative depending on what you are listening. The highs were also very nice crisp fast and detailed with lots of sparkle and a huge sound stage. But the midrange was anemic and lacked the fullness of the good class A, AB or especially Vacuum tubes where the midrange is the star of all the attention and just grabs your emotions. So I find that class D is not emotionally involving especially in the midrange frequencies. When class D technology reaches the level of tubes or good class AB in the midrange I will switch to class D. I have a feeling that Purifi ET400A module has reached the pinnacle of class D technology and its only a matter of time before more and more people and manufacturers will start implementing it in their audio systems. That romantic midrange bloom may never reach the same levels in class D technology simply because of the very linear and virtually distortion free audio reproduction. In a sense our human hearing prefers a degree of 2nd order harmonic distortion that vacuum tubes and class AB amps produce, which is more relaxed forgiving with majority of music. Sorry for the long read...
I actually compared an AB Amp with a D on the same set of speakers. The AB actually sounded like it reached noticeablely lower in frequency and just sounded more alive than the D across the board. D sounds fine until you make a comparison IMO.
I am a complete noob trying to change from a Japanese-style class D experience since the 80s and into a class A/B (more "British" perhaps) amplifier because I listen to metal, rock, and various instruments that have full mid-range voicing (electric guitar, saxophone). Everything you say here resonates with me thus far and scrolling through forums online and most commentary has been 95% useless (maybe 1 or 2 guys in a forum thread actually hear and know the differences). It's a strange phenomenon with human hearing, tribalism, etc. Anyway, I am trying to find an amp that has less of the mid-range or upper midrange distortion/compression/saturation that I am hearing in my current Cambridge Audio AXR100. Going back to class D sounds bad --not just because of performance differences that others have noted, but because that "British" sound seems to never come from a class D amplifier. In other words, there's a reason why guys in the UK choose class A/B for a good sound in the midrange that most of the Japanese class D amps severely lack. Boosting mid frequencies with equalizers also fails to make the class D amp take on the character of the AXR100 in my experience. Do you have any suggestions for a class A/B amp with less compression or maybe less saturation in those mid-range frequencies? My alternatives are seeking a "British" class D or remaining with the AXR100. sub-$1500 is the area I am looking into.
@@overnightdelivery Test equipment will actually show the AB Amplifier signal won't be as exact, in fact it will be "Muddied" which is what past Hype has influenced us to appreciate, and thus a Decent class D Amplifier lacking this muddied signal will seem uncomfortably lacking, Sadly Test equipment BTW will prove the fact that a Class D Amplifier can actually drive a Subwoofer much cleaner than most if not all AB amplifiers, which BTW an AB Amp will require a bucket load more of output Transistors to match performance to a Class D, Only problem is the more Transistors the more noise will be introduced just in order to match the output power of a Cool running Class D.
@@overnightdelivery Test equipment will actually show the AB Amplifier signal won't be as exact to a class D, in fact the AB or Class C Amps will be "Muddied" which is what past Audio Hype has influenced us to appreciate "Rich Full ambience" sound familiar? , and thus a Decent class D Amplifier lacking this muddied signal will seem uncomfortably lacking the consequences from an AB amplifier, Sadly BTW Test equipment will prove the fact that a Class D Amplifier can actually drive speakers including Subwoofers much cleaner than most if not all AB amplifiers, Which BTW an AB or C Amp will require a bucket load more of output Transistors to match signal performance to a Class D, Only problem is the more Transistors the more noise will be introduced just in order to match the output power of a Cool running Class D. Only way to know the truth is to get a hold of a decent recording Oscilloscope and test for yourself. Ignore the Audio BS Invest in your own test equipment and learn the truth..
When civilization collapses and you're living off grid with only solar but still need your stereo the class D amp is gonna be a winner. I have a class D and and AB amp, same power and all, I use the D for the woofers, the other day I reconfigured the setup using the class D amp for the mains and a plate amp for a woofer. It made a pretty compelling stereo, although, as Paul comments here, the AB amp is just a step more in many ways sound wise. (I like that I can swap a few wires and have a different stereo...)
Wow! This was not the answer I was expecting from Paul. Thank you for a candid and honest response to where we are in 2020. Love your channel and always look forward to your videos.
Class D can be very good. Particularly for bass authority. And it is environmentally friendly. BUT, I can build a great tube amp with very little cost that will blow it away and carries a nostalgic appearance that can be endearing. And in terms of power costs, it is the smallest part of my budget with the biggest return. I'll happily have a class D powered sub along side the triodes. BUT #2, I am happy that class D will bring affordable audiophile experience to more people.
I agree. Class D is making a huge impact. I recently heard Bel Canto REF 600Ms and Jeff Rowland's 125s and was more impressed with Bel Canto's. Gallium-Nitride is also making Class D a big contender. But the best way to find out if it's for you is to listen to it on your system.
I have a Marantz PM50 AB Amp 70 watts per channel (Analaogue Only) from 1991 connected to a Pioneer DAC and it sounds beautiful sounding. The Vocals for example in Memory from Cats sounds very emotional, romantic, and connecting. I now have a little spare money and decided to treat myself to the Marantz PM12 Special Edition 100 watts per channel (Analogue Only) Class D Amplifier also connected to the same speakers and the same DAC as my PM50. At the time of purchase and listening i wasnt aware of it being a Class D Amp. I hooked it all up and immediately put on Memory (as its one of my favourite songs) and was looking forward to the Vocal section, but when it arrived it didnt connect with me emotionally..... I then listened to some other favourite songs and it was the same..... I then switched Amps back to my old PM50 and the emotion returned!! I then kept switching amps (i had both set up next to each other just a case of pulling the speaker plugs out of one and into the other and the DAC interconnect) and i spent the whole weekend doing this. I was shocked i had just spent £2300.00 on an Amp that isnt even as good sounding as my 1990 PM50! Luckily i was able to return it for a full refund. I then started looking at other Amps and then realised that the PM12 was a Class D compared with my Class AB PM50. I then also read countless reviews regarding Class D not sounding as good as Class AB. I have now orderded the Marantz Model 50 (70 wpc and Class AB) which will be arriving this weekend and im hoping this will at least be equal to my PM50 or hopefully even a little better 😀👍
Class D amplifiers can really shine with small full range drivers like BMR speakers and some 2-way speakers with silk dome tweeters. There are some audiophiles that actually swear by inexpensive class D amplifiers like the Texas Instruments TPA 3116d2 based amps. I swear by 1970s to early 1980s class AB amplifiers.
Great video Paul. While the cost effective Class D's tempt me, I'd rather have better sound over energy efficiency. When I see that Class D's have begun to rule the roost, I will then take another look. For now, Class A or AB for sound quality.
Went class D running a pair of TAD S1-EX in Bi-amp and I can’t complain. Sometimes it’s a bit bright depends on source or the recording I should say but otherwise it’s pleasing. As Mostly I listen to jazz or classical music it’s more then satisfying.
yeah, I agree with you about class A and AB all vacuum tube input and output. I design them from the late 60 till now and compare with class D and there is no comparacion. Check the output of a fixed frequency in a scope. You be extremely surprised when seeing all that staircase on the output.
The residual switching frequency is way beyond what any speaker can output and will low pass filter the residual so it is irrelevant to the sound produced.
@G Guest Yes, the switching residual should be filtered within the amp but some class D amps do not include those filters which add some additional resistance so some manufacturers leave them out because the residual frequency (generally above 500kHz or in the MHz region) cannot be reproduced anyway. What counts is the distortion from the speaker output, not what might be observed on a scope.
@G Guest Current Class D is up to 500KHz for the PWM frequency. Older Class D, especially for driving subwoofers, may only be 150KHz. Future GaN designs should be able to operate at MHz frequencies. Regardless, you can never remove 100% of the switching frequency residual; you need to accept that at some level, it is "low enough." If an "audiophile" insists that *anything* visible on a scope must be relevant, then I have some experiments to show them.
Several years ago I got a (class D) ICEpower based amp and it was comparable to decent ABs. But I have to say that most recent designs of ucD-type amp modules (like new hypex) - they just outperform any AB amp out there, so we don't need to wait several years for that to happen - it's already there.
For classical a really black background is a big plus, and on the whole class D seems to deliver that more consistently. There are some A/B i've heard with that attribute - at a price... I think there are some who like the concept of A/B ('free 'flowing' signal') and dislike the concept of D ('chopped up' segments), and that lurks behind a unrealistic bias - not to say that a 'genuine' preference does not exist. There is a lot a mud in water with tube input stages etc and some of the best AB I've heard (Linn) uses digital power supply, so not quite so black and white.
If you’re a Bass Player, you’ll *definitely* hear the difference between an old transformer based amplifier, and a newer Class D Power Amp... ... but I don’t necessarily enjoy the “weight” of those old amplifiers..
Yes, the euphonic even-order harmonic distortions of tube amplifiers and the slower transients and lower damping factor due to the output transformers definitely make obvious differences in the sound of tube amps and any solid-state amplifier.
Class D is untra sensitive to cureretn and when it gets friend it CAN TBE FIXED. I DON TLIKE CLASS D EVERS AGAINES! I dont like GALLIEN KRUEGERS. Just PEAVEY TRANSISTERS AMPlifiers combo unit 10 in speekers. DUgfg Mckagsn guns roses now uses Fender tube amp with or replaced Galienbs Krugers. KISS uses transisters nto APPEGS no more THANE YOU AND THUBMES UEPS!
@@santafemikez9694 don’t know if you’re talking to me or not, but I’ll chime in anyway… i’m no expert, but Class D amplification has come a long way in 15 years... and I’m sure that there Will be a few of them these days that sound really good (with a lot of power- under 15 pounds) ... and while I still prefer the tone of an old transformer-based bass amp (tube and solid state) I can just tell you, that after lugging around an SVT with the 810 Cab, The Acoustic Control 360/361, A few Fender Rhodes, for years with 2 Hernia Operations following that,.. I can safely say that *Class D amplification* sounds just fine to me these days lol
I switched to class D and was very careful about the design, so far very pleased with results, in my system. Design is important to avoid problems with mid and upper range sound.
Class D technology has seemed to have jumped leaps and bounds in recent years. Not to mention, why not find a company with a reasonable return policy and try one out for yourself? Instead of judging an amp on what class it is, see how it works and sounds in your system instead of basing it on the class of amp it is.
@behexen250 I see cables, line conditioners and headphones in their Lending Library, but what other products can be borrowed? Link: www.thecableco.com/lending-library
behexen250 That’s a good idea. I’ve already been signed up on their mailing list for years, but I’ve never taken advantage of their lending program. Thanks!
Good answer. Also important to note that a designer who really knows what he is doing can make a class D and it can outperform a large percentage of the class AB out there that may not have had that level of expertise and care in the fine details of the design.
You totally did not acknowledge Bob Carver - the genius who created A/B amplifiers with the efficiency exceeding that of Class-D with his tracking-downconverter.
@@editorjuno I'm still rocking hard with my 30 year old 150w Carver integrated amplifier. Has never been recapped and the sonic holographic engine, in conjunction with my horn-loaded Klipsch speakers, still creates some of the best sound stages I ever heard. Reliability has never been an issue.
I think it was Bob who took class D amps to another level when he brought a pair of them to a function plunked them down on a table plugged them in and output 500 watts each no transformer!!! Jaws dropped!
Bass rig related: I'm looking for a bass rig that's light, compact, transportable. Class D suits this need. Alas, every class d bass amp I've tried, with the same speaker, bass guitar, leads and cables, sounds awful. It's either to muddy or to brittle and bright. I simply can't get the same tones from Class D as I can with my Class A-AB amps... Since many Class D users abuse me and accuse me of "Hating Class D", it's really hard to find an intelligent answers that's not biased or discriminatory. I assure you this is not the case. I simply haven't found one I've that's worked for me... What am I doing wrong?
John Darko said something great in one of his videos about caring about the last 5% your system can gain from upgrading etc. He then went on to say that people like him are able to notice or care about that percent, but that not necessarily everyone does. It seems like that's the case with class AB or class D.
why dont you guys take amp say from year or two and mass perduce it i know you can controll the out come i mean its last years model but it would lower the price for hi end audio i mean why not we need good sound face it if we dont know what good sound is how do we know what to buy and what are we hearing.okay back in the 80s some of the audio like stereo studio sold low end like ads nad harmon so for $150 bucks you could get scott reciver with say0.005 thd and it sounded good but there was higher audio that did not sound any better but was better because of the snake oil real snake oil bs crap they fed us.i have good ears i hear things most dont like fleckels cicks zaps distotions therw recordings threw outlets oh ya it drives me nuts but when i cant listen to music because of this it makes me think noise bocking built in a power condioner i know it would cost to do but how do we live in homes apartments that power is crap good sound should not cost so much as it dose.but thd mixed with line noise from your outlet power condition is what i need but they cost moer than i could aford so this is why i saying this build it in to it so the poor amp has a chance to get rid of some noise so it sounds clean not fizziy or pop and the best one voltage drop right in the middel of song the sound in about 2-3secounds just fall on low volts amps and sound goes to distrotion and its time turn it off.but the ones that dont do that is qsc amp i used for live events but the thd is 0.1%and it sucks down 12 amps but i dont get those shifts in those way like i sed and at this point i have music .but the way thats built is a true amp i can count on i have others sound tec its livly and full sound but my fristed class d amp going in the right but it dont have ice so you get swiching from the amp its a barringer but it takes i like350 watts and gives 170 at 8 oms i think its brite mid range is live and dont fall on its head but i was dj-ing at this time . its the recivers that disapoint me not the dj amps the fact is they sound almost as good to all the rest .im a siant vinney audio file cause of my apartment i live in.im not try to give a sob story but life is hard and not evrey one bennifits from life its just afact.but i can still listen to my music.i have good ears so i can hear over the noise but not all the time somtimes you just say no.
@@jumpsuite power conditioners suck the life out of the music! They aren't any benefit unless you live in a third world country with crappy electricity. Where do you live? I'm from Scotland UK and the electricity to my outlets is fine. No noise and no audible THD when listening to my bookshelf and on wall speakers. My amplifiers, speakers are very low distortion. Maybe you need to upgrade your amplifiers and speakers to better specced lower distortion ones.
There's even class G and H amplifiers. And I've read a combo of Class G/H amplifier is suppose to have some of the best resolution while still having the efiiciency of a class D amp. Regarding Class D amps, I've also read that ICE Class D amplifiers are the best out there.
Latest class D are very good and supply a lot of power for the buck, if you want to drive a pair of difficult speakers, low rendement and or low impediance
Clive Sinclair in the UK released the X10 Pulse Width Modulation amplifier in 1964. This was an early version of what has now become known as Class D. These amps did not give the output power stated and radiated a huge amount of radio frequency interference. A Class D amp works in a similar way to a switch mode power supply so the best quality amps must have very good filtering, which many now do. Class D amplifiers will probably dominate the hi-fi market in the next few years due to their high efficiency, small size, sound quality and bang for the buck., makers of so called expensive “high end” amplifiers are in for a hard time.
No, the high end makers just take the same internals, add a few gimmicks such as a tube input stage, put it in a snazzy case, and charge the gullible 5x what it's worth. The law of diminishing returns will always allow them to get away with justifying the cost, based on a claimed subtle improvement - which of course you won't hear unless you're a *real audiophile.* If they can sell $20K speaker cables . . .
I see more useful Class D for low and mid frequencies because the high pass filter makes the high frequencies listen bad, and AB, G and H for mid and high frequencies because of fidelity and quality
Going by what Darren said a few days ago about class D distortion I would conclude that a good class A-B would be superior even when you balance (mask) said distortion with a tube input. With that said a non-critical listener who wants the most amount of watts for your money would be happiest with class D.
The interesting thing is that the opposite seems to be the case: manufacturers/professionals I've seen use class D for critical listening and A-B for shows, because people consider them more "high end". At the end of the day, class A usually has much higher distortion than a good class D amp like Purifi, which has a THD of 0.0001% compared to fx. the PS Audio flagship BHK with 0.1%.
@@LordVictorHalgaard The thing with THD is that .1% is imperceptible and while much lower numbers look impressive it does not really gain you anything sound wise . What Darren was saying is Class D has a wide spectrum type distortion (a new type of distortion ) at higher outputs that makes the music seem louder(that some people may think sounds better) but it's not accurate and a vacuum tube input counteracts this with slight compression at high outputs .While we would like our amplifiers to be like a wire with gain , truth is all amps color the music somewhat , at the end of the day it's what sounds most natural to us.
@@leekumiega9268 No, Darren was not saying the M1200 has "wide spectrum type" distortion, as though it were some new type. His actual words were, "at higher amplitudes, the spectrum of the distortion becomes more complex." He went on to make a comparison of a stick striking wood, with "just a few harmonics associated with it," against a snare drum which is "almost like a square wave, so it's very high-ordered." This is ordinary THD, but I haven't seen any SPD plots for it. However the numbers from ICEpower look quite good: Under 0.01% with a 4 ohm load up to 1000W at 100Hz or 1KHz, or up to 800W at 6.67KHz. That shouldn't be audible, so I don't know why Darren was discussing it as something to compensate for, starting at modest power levels above 100W. Maybe with some very pure sinusoidal test signals, you could start to hear distortion that slight, but I thought this was supposed to be about music.
if people could accept, then class D with PWM modulation frequency > 1.41M should be the same quality as DSD64(SACD). I have a full digital system that could provide very good performance... so we use that as monitor system
I bought a couple of old adcom amps lately a 545ii and 535ii. I built a dual monoblock using icepower 200asc and ac modules. If they are representative of class d I'll pass. The old adcom just sound better. I know the geeks grow teeth and wave ASR measurements around, but I am interested in listening to music and right now those old amps do that best for me. I wonder if something exists, that adds to the enjoyment, that is not even being measured by those bench tests. NOW, when you consider size and price new vs new I can see the charm. But I'm 47 and will likely refresh older stuff, maybe try to build an AB and that will be how I hear the harps playing. That is if I can afford anything in this new world we're entering.
I Have 4 crown 2502 but when I plugged in a monlith mothlith 7x to my frount stage of my system the authority of the amplifer is insane I heard a difference sound was effort less the bass was tight and
But still crown xls drivecore 2 is far from perfect. For sound quality, I would not pick them, but for a budget system in need of much power, they are a good choice.
I've been seeing some super high end class D amps that blow everything else away. I'm seeing THD+N at rated power below the threshold of most measuring instruments across the entire audio spectrum. But those amps cost thousands of dollars at the moment. It's going to be a while before that technology and engineering becomes mainstream. But the tech exists today. And it blows everything else away. I see a day when people will wonder why anyone would buy anything other than class D.
Class D is great for low frequencies. A big economical advantage. And sucks a lot less power out of your power grid. But im sticking to class a/b for now with my H/K signature 2.1.
all is done to save a few output transistors , some aliminium as heat sink and a few cents of electricity comes with better efficiency . it is not for better sound .
For speakers, the bulk of the weight isn't exactly the amplifier inside. And 35lbs is quite lightweight for PA speakers. I have a PA speaker with 1200 watts of amplification in it and the high power is of course facilitated by the class D amp. And it weighs more than 20 kg. My guess is that the whole dsp and amplifier inside weighs less than 4 kg. We would have had far less active monitors if it wasn't for the class D technology.
@@oysteinsoreide4323 I have the EV ZLX-12 speakers which are 34 lbs/piece (plastic enclosures). As far as I know earlier speakers had class a/b amps with huge heat sinks, which added quite a bit of weight. These speakers sounds great to me, I use them at community events and fundraiser auctions. Much lighter and convenient than having a separate amp crate to carry around and hook up, also redundancy since each speaker has it's own amp.
@Lloyd Stout : hold on ... I meant say even its class D .. sounds so. Good .. when I enters room I did not know I was listening class D .. by that I floored by the sound .. so what’s problem here ?
Hello! Can anyone (who has the equipment) measure intermodulation distortion of any good class D amplifier? For example, we have two signals with difference of 1kHz. We start from 2000Hz and finish to 15kHz. It would be very interesting!
Class D tend to be cool running and compact for the output. I once tried a Jeff Rowland integrated. It was very refined and "nice" but lacked a bit of oomph and bite for my taste and still went for AB. Don't class D use op amps ? I thought they were inferior and introduce noise ?
They're so "inferior" and "introduce" so much "noise" that there are dozens of trusty little NE5532 chips -- a 30+ year old design -- in Paul McGowan's pride and joy, Neil Young's old Studer mixing desk. Enough said.
@@wildcat1065 -- Class D doesn't require the use of op-amps and PS Audio avoids using them, favoring their own Class A front ends, IMO with somewhat dubious results in actual performance. Moreover, Paul isn't really admitting anything -- he's promoting his more expensive (and profitable) Class AB (and Class A?) products, which makes total business sense. The thing to remember about him is that he's much more of a businessman and marketing guy than a tech guru -- he's very honest about the fact that he has no formal engineering background and learned what he knows "on the fly" via immersion in the audio industry, where he knows pretty much everybody who's anybody.
@Fat Rat -- That's not what he's doing these days. He's a pitchman and very good at it. I concede that there are more than a few self-taught engineers that are very good at what they do, having worked with a couple of them over the years, but Paul wisely depends on his staff -- folks like Darren and Chris -- and outside consultants to actually engineer the products he offers. I respect the fact that he knows his limitations in that regard.
@Fat Rat -- Sorry, I just figured you'd misspelled the word and I didn't want to come off like a nitpicker. I find myself deeply distrusting self-styled "golden eared" audio gurus, especially those with pricey gear to sell. I've found over my many years that, with the possible exception of the somewhat more mysterious art/science of speaker system and headphone design, audible excellence tracks very closely with measurable excellence -- hence my duly considered opinion that ASR's reviews comprise a much better baseline than anything the subjective reviewers have to say about a product. Peace
The company is actually called "Purifi" -- here's some detailed lab results on the module. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-purifi-1et400a-amplifier.7984/
It really depends on how much you expect, but I'd say the best I've come across, as to where diminishing returns sets in are implementations of Hypex nCore or now Purifi, like you see in the NAD M22, or Benchmark, which are not overtly expensive (though not cheap), but very hard to beat. But there are of course cheaper amps which are very popular as well. But personally that's where I don't see significant improvements moving up, beyond different flavours.
FWIW, I now use a little sub-$50USD (+ about $25USD for a suitable SMPS) Chinese-made power amp -- based on a single TI TPA3255 Class D IC and a couple of their classic NE5532 op amp chips -- that puts my good old Adcom GFA-535 to shame in every respect.
I think that CLASS D has a bad reputation because the quality changes between manufacturers, from the entire system to drivers to mosfets, so it´s hard to get a very good sense and comparison between them, AB is more consistent between the board, but D have some VERY bad examples!
Class D? Bah, I'd even go down to Sprout100 and be happy as a clam. Oh wait -- I have! And hell does it capture the "essence of the music" too! Yes, professionals, recording musicians and _very_ discerning audiophiles living in castles and mansions (at the very least) should and, sometimes but certainly not always, will be able to tell, feel and acknowledge the difference and therefore insist on their ABs. For me, a bit of progress and efficiency is very very welcome.
Class d sounds good to me for the money.yes it has some funny spots in the band but it may be enclosure or sub🤷🏻♂️but i had a full range class d and the lows was not there.but what do i know only been doing this 8 months.
So the takeaway here is that engineering is the bottom line in the end, yes? It used to be that you would choose your amp based upon your musical tastes, with older recordings it certainly helps when its played back with the same tech it was recorded with, thats for sure!
Paul.. In class D how which frequencies is the distortion (or does it change according to the signal) .. Please direct me to a video (via link) or comment . Thanks :)
@Fat Rat Yup. I know that the glass may be 'only' half full, but 'only' is over rated. It's what you do with what you've got. "Come on up for the rising." -- Bruce
Class D means bass only means I’ll fry your sub that pushes more Rms. Class A & B mean both bass and Rms means bigass speaker throwing everything. Means if u want both class ab for both or go separate Class D in the back and Ab in front lows and highs wrong setups will pop them amps
You need to try a good class D amplifier. My class D power stereo amplifier is a studio quality amplifier with no SMPS like the majority of class D amplifiers sold. Instead it has two linear power supply's and a massive toroidal transformer. Sounds better more transparent than the majority of class AB amplifiers I've heard 🎶
Price no object, I have heard no class A or AB amps that can compete with the best Class D amps, in spite of the tremendous price difference. But you do have to get the right class D circuit, and ICE ain’t it, sadly. A and AB do still usually have a more ‘musical’ tonality, but in every other aspect good Class D boards have in my experience been far more resolving, precise etc.; basically Class D seems technically/objectively better, but A/AB still seems subjectively better, if that makes sense.
@G Guest "Do shielded power cables make a difference?" NO. Not unless you have a huge electrical field in your listening room that can interact with the power cable.
@G Guest It's definitely not anything like the "shielded power cables" discussion, in the sense that there is a LOT of data to work with here, and very obvious differences, unlike with the cables, which are usually considered dubious at best. I'm perfectly aware how the amplifiers work, and that hasn't given any solid answers: sure class A has no switching noise, but yet most still end up with a colossal amount of distortion compared to class D amps like Purifi. I'd love more detailed analysis of both circuit types compared... At the end of the day, what I, and many professionals I've dealt with find, is at this point a technical superiority in class D, in what comes out of the speakers at the end - but at the same time a warmer/meatier sound that many prefer in class A, combined with a lot of the usual stigma, nostalgia and conservatism found in HIFI, keeping class A at the top, which makes it hard to get class D out there. Not to mention its much more difficult to design/make well. This is generally an endless discussion as most things in hifi, because of those last issues.
@@jonlaws4493 Hard to say: on paper Purifi is the best at the moment, and it is certainly very good, and better than most - but it is not quite as precise sounding in practise as some of Pascal's circuits found in Studio applications and I believe some very expensive amps like Aavik. There are more, but the general issue is that most of them are not readily available to consumers yet, as they are either quite new designs, or not as widely used as ICE or Hypex which are more established at this point - and neither of them are bad by the way, just not the best at this point. (though nCore is still keeping up well in fx. Benchmarks iterations)
The Marantz Model 30 is a class D and it’s absolutely beautiful. It sounds amazing paired up to my Kef Reference 1s with the Model 30n SACD / Streamer. Class D can sound amazing
It's amazing how 9 months ago Class D was almost as good as class AB or Class A for that matter, But wow! What 9 months in research does is astonishing, cant believe how some of the best of class D amplifiers costing a fraction now surpasses all the classes of Amplification..
@@babolababs4732 Specs, performance, usage and tests using up to date test equipment is testament, that a properly designed and assembled Class D Amplifier reigns Supreme, mind you most everyday workaday Audio enthusiast are so brainwashed by past hype, they will never ever get to test "even Mediocre ones" to see for themselves just how blardy much better they are, Only true way to know who's with the hype from what the actual TOP type is, is to own and test the various classes of amplifiers for yourself using your own Test equipment..
@@KorAllRBare Sure, but Class D isn't and won't be everyone's cup of tea. Definitely not the "ring to rule them all". Class D measures really well, up to and sometimes over the A and AB as well as G amps, but that's the measurement, not the actual and real listening experience, which for every person will be very subjective. I have Yamaha A-S1200 Class AB amp and the NAD C388, Class D one. They're connected to the same set of speakers via the switch. Guess which one I enjoy listening more? The AB, similarly to tube amps tends to 'color' the sound and provide a different sound stage both in depth and width, whereas Class D is clear to the point of being sterile. Some people will like this but may won't, otherwise everyone's should be ditching their linear and tube amps in favour of Class D amps, which isn't and hasn't been the case for all this time. The "Class D is better and has over taken everything else" was the statement we have heard many many years ago, (I have been into hifi for 30+ years and first time I heard this was some 15 years ago) even when the D wasn't even close to the others and outside of hifi domain, and this will likely continue in the future. But the amp manufacturers will not suddenly stop making amps and receivers in other classes. Instead there will be likely a balance of people owning Class D and other classes of amps. Bruno Putzey has paved a fantastic path of inclusion of the Class D amps into the audiophile and hifi domain and continue to do so, but the many challenges around well designed and implemented Class D module still remain, he and few like him just managed to find a way to minimize the impact. And no, I'm not one of those people you mention above with blinkers on or being brainwashed, I have been around for quite a chunk of time in this hobby and I can tell you my NAD PWM amp will not replace my Yamaha any time soon but remain as an option I'd like to switch on or off from time to time when I want that un-colored, dear I say slightly uninspiring and sterile sound stage. Not disagreeing with you, just saying from my own point of view what my experience has been so far in this area. Cheers.
As I said @@drazenbabich For decades I appreciated a 100 Wrms for it's clean extra Dynamic Power and yet rich and full sounding reproduction "The hype convinced me this was a good thing" But when I compared my old Amp with my Current Class D I was at first befuddled as to why the class D produced a much more faithful reproduction in my test scope and yet to me sounded as if the music was not rich or full "no matter what the content or genre" The class D simply had a cleaner and more precise signal closer to the input, whilst my Old amp seemed to add something extra into the wave forms as they were just off a little "it actually made it sound fuller", anyway it took a while, but now I am revolted at the sound of tainted music, thankfully An Oscilloscope makes that painfully obvious..
"I like bees but not when they sting me! " you don't say Paul haha how profound your statements can be You should name you're small new dual mono ice amplifiers Ice Ice baby all about that switching power supply especially in valve Gear can't beat it
To speak about classes haven't no sense except when each classe is conceived and builted at its best (at its state-of-the-art) before comparison. My opinion: the best is classe A, then classe D and then AB.
any thoughts on Hypex?.. I've been so on the fence with splurging on Barefoot MM45 studio monitors that use 3 tri-amp of the Hypex per side over a traditional mixing setup of Proac Studio 100's amped by a Bryston 4B SST
They're really, really good -- a bunch of Hypex modules are used in the highly-integrated Kii Three system, which delivers some of the best audio performance on the planet from very compact enclosures. It goes for something around $20kUSD. IIRC, Bruno Putzeys was the lead designer.
My experience on a mid-fi level was Class D had more punch and was better for Movies, but for Music especially at high levels Class A/B just sounded so much sweeter. that was a few years ago. i Run Class A/B now and are very happy. But depending on your speakers and what yo listen to, you need to compare them for yourself. my understanding is Class D has come along way but i'm not ready to go back.
interesting topic but too complex to do generalization. personally class d has to many benefits besides sound that i benefit from. ab has so many drawbacks that i can not own them.
I replaced my monoblocks with A A/B format with Class D . . . and I am sorry, there is far more silence, detail, 3-D imaging, tonal beauty, and vocal detail in what I now have . . . than what I did with the monoblocks, which cost a lot more.
I'm curious which ones you got? The issue is that most HiFi people are still thinking about the early forms of class D like ICE, from the 90's, which weren't very nice sounding - a LOT has changed since then.
Tried class d on a two way speaker once, and never again, its fine for subwoofer but not for a speaker, the mids are terrible, the high is completely gone, im not an audiophile but its bad enough to make me avoid it
Tried a PC once. It was horribly slow and deficient in storage, with a terrible user interface. Couldn't store more than 10 JPEG photos on its hard drive, not to mention that its OS and graphics didn't even support displaying them. I'll never touch a PC again.
One is superior. Switch mode power is the best. Show me how that's not the case. You can't, because when you understand the difference, there's no question. Kind of like tube versus solid state. As for signal processing. Digital slays. Photography, digital slays film. These are demonstrable facts.
Class D is OK. In the end it’s an audio industry topology that makes good power for cheap. I take issue that certain companies are charging $$$ for Class D’s whereas for the same money, one could get a better Class A or A/B.
That's where I'm currently sitting right now. I don't require more than 10W of power as I'll be using high efficiency speakers. Most decent amplifiers cost between 1000~3000€ and about half of these models are class D. Prices shoot up with streaming functionality. I decided to bite the bullet and get a custom-made class A tube amp for 1800€. I thought that Class D would disrupt the market with high value offerings. That is so far from the case right now. Class A/B is as expensive/cheaper.
Paul is saying it well. A passionate audio engineer can make a great sounding class D amplifier and a not passionate audio engineer can make a poor sounding class A amplifier. ICEpower originates from the late 90s in Denmark with a guy Karsten Nielsen who did a Phd project in collaboration with Bang & Olufsen. ICEpower is sort of green technology. It's energy efficient = cold = ice. The Beolab 1 active speaker got based on ICEpower released in 1997 as a first. I have a pair of these speakers that have lasted me 22 years now with zero problems. One great quality of class D is in fact that it runs cold and thus can last much longer than very hot amp technology involving class A and tubes. I use them in my home theater setup as front speakers. They still work perfectly fine. Each speaker has 3 amplifiers in it with the bass being ICEpower of 450 Watts and the treble, and mid-range each being class AB at 125W for total 700 Watts per speaker. The cabinet is heavy aluminum, so box vibrations are as non-existing as they can be. For set of home theatre front speakers in a 5.1 setup, I'm not sure I can find anything much better and great is that the speakers use ICEpower only for the bass where class D makes the most value and doesn't hurt audio fidelity.
No, they are pretty much tied at this point - class D is arguably technically superior now, but preferences vary. Paul always prefers a more musical/pleasant sound, so he prefers class A, if you like a more technical/analytical sound, good class D may suit you better.
Paul quite sensibly decided that his engineering team didn't have the specialized Class D expertise to outdo what he could simply buy in OEM module form. Dozens of other "high-end" companies have come to the same conclusion.
After using AB tube, and solid state amps for 60 years, I got the two Class D monoblocks from Emotiva. I have very high admiration of these Emotiva Class D amps! Indistinguishable from the many AB's I used previously, except for having wider dynamic response.
Provided you start with a capable topology. He proved his SS amp could emulate a high-end tube amp, but you wouldn't get very far trying to go the other way.
Your videos are so informational. I would take a class with just you speaking about audio.
I have heard a few good class D amps, and in my opinion they all sounded flat in the midrange frequencies. Don't get me wrong they sounded great on the lows especially with really good and tight woofer control which can be a positive or a negative depending on what you are listening. The highs were also very nice crisp fast and detailed with lots of sparkle and a huge sound stage. But the midrange was anemic and lacked the fullness of the good class A, AB or especially Vacuum tubes where the midrange is the star of all the attention and just grabs your emotions. So I find that class D is not emotionally involving especially in the midrange frequencies. When class D technology reaches the level of tubes or good class AB in the midrange I will switch to class D. I have a feeling that Purifi ET400A module has reached the pinnacle of class D technology and its only a matter of time before more and more people and manufacturers will start implementing it in their audio systems. That romantic midrange bloom may never reach the same levels in class D technology simply because of the very linear and virtually distortion free audio reproduction. In a sense our human hearing prefers a degree of 2nd order harmonic distortion that vacuum tubes and class AB amps produce, which is more relaxed forgiving with majority of music. Sorry for the long read...
I actually compared an AB Amp with a D on the same set of speakers. The AB actually sounded like it reached noticeablely lower in frequency and just sounded more alive than the D across the board. D sounds fine until you make a comparison IMO.
I am a complete noob trying to change from a Japanese-style class D experience since the 80s and into a class A/B (more "British" perhaps) amplifier because I listen to metal, rock, and various instruments that have full mid-range voicing (electric guitar, saxophone). Everything you say here resonates with me thus far and scrolling through forums online and most commentary has been 95% useless (maybe 1 or 2 guys in a forum thread actually hear and know the differences). It's a strange phenomenon with human hearing, tribalism, etc. Anyway, I am trying to find an amp that has less of the mid-range or upper midrange distortion/compression/saturation that I am hearing in my current Cambridge Audio AXR100. Going back to class D sounds bad --not just because of performance differences that others have noted, but because that "British" sound seems to never come from a class D amplifier. In other words, there's a reason why guys in the UK choose class A/B for a good sound in the midrange that most of the Japanese class D amps severely lack. Boosting mid frequencies with equalizers also fails to make the class D amp take on the character of the AXR100 in my experience. Do you have any suggestions for a class A/B amp with less compression or maybe less saturation in those mid-range frequencies? My alternatives are seeking a "British" class D or remaining with the AXR100. sub-$1500 is the area I am looking into.
@@overnightdelivery
Test equipment will actually show the AB Amplifier signal won't be as exact, in fact it will be "Muddied" which is what past Hype has influenced us to appreciate, and thus a Decent class D Amplifier lacking this muddied signal will seem uncomfortably lacking, Sadly Test equipment BTW will prove the fact that a Class D Amplifier can actually drive a Subwoofer much cleaner than most if not all AB amplifiers, which BTW an AB Amp will require a bucket load more of output Transistors to match performance to a Class D, Only problem is the more Transistors the more noise will be introduced just in order to match the output power of a Cool running Class D.
@@overnightdelivery
Test equipment will actually show the AB Amplifier signal won't be as exact to a class D, in fact the AB or Class C Amps will be "Muddied" which is what past Audio Hype has influenced us to appreciate "Rich Full ambience" sound familiar? , and thus a Decent class D Amplifier lacking this muddied signal will seem uncomfortably lacking the consequences from an AB amplifier, Sadly BTW Test equipment will prove the fact that a Class D Amplifier can actually drive speakers including Subwoofers much cleaner than most if not all AB amplifiers, Which BTW an AB or C Amp will require a bucket load more of output Transistors to match signal performance to a Class D, Only problem is the more Transistors the more noise will be introduced just in order to match the output power of a Cool running Class D.
Only way to know the truth is to get a hold of a decent recording Oscilloscope and test for yourself.
Ignore the Audio BS Invest in your own test equipment and learn the truth..
you should hear my class d topping tp-60 i modified.
One plus about an AB amplifier is if your speaker set up is in a cold room of the house, it can double as an electric heater.
When civilization collapses and you're living off grid with only solar but still need your stereo the class D amp is gonna be a winner.
I have a class D and and AB amp, same power and all, I use the D for the woofers, the other day I reconfigured the setup using the class D amp for the mains and a plate amp for a woofer. It made a pretty compelling stereo, although, as Paul comments here, the AB amp is just a step more in many ways sound wise. (I like that I can swap a few wires and have a different stereo...)
Wow! This was not the answer I was expecting from Paul. Thank you for a candid and honest response to where we are in 2020. Love your channel and always look forward to your videos.
Thanks for watching!
Class D can be very good. Particularly for bass authority. And it is environmentally friendly.
BUT, I can build a great tube amp with very little cost that will blow it away and carries a nostalgic appearance that can be endearing. And in terms of power costs, it is the smallest part of my budget with the biggest return. I'll happily have a class D powered sub along side the triodes.
BUT #2, I am happy that class D will bring affordable audiophile experience to more people.
Remember Phase Linear?
Bob Carver who invented the 500 watt cube amp from the 80s or 90s designed and built them right?
I agree. Class D is making a huge impact. I recently heard Bel Canto REF 600Ms and Jeff Rowland's 125s and was more impressed with Bel Canto's. Gallium-Nitride is also making Class D a big contender. But the best way to find out if it's for you is to listen to it on your system.
TAD S1-EX sounds heavenly with REF 600M.
I have a Marantz PM50 AB Amp 70 watts per channel (Analaogue Only) from 1991 connected to a Pioneer DAC and it sounds beautiful sounding. The Vocals for example in Memory from Cats sounds very emotional, romantic, and connecting. I now have a little spare money and decided to treat myself to the Marantz PM12 Special Edition 100 watts per channel (Analogue Only) Class D Amplifier also connected to the same speakers and the same DAC as my PM50. At the time of purchase and listening i wasnt aware of it being a Class D Amp. I hooked it all up and immediately put on Memory (as its one of my favourite songs) and was looking forward to the Vocal section, but when it arrived it didnt connect with me emotionally..... I then listened to some other favourite songs and it was the same..... I then switched Amps back to my old PM50 and the emotion returned!! I then kept switching amps (i had both set up next to each other just a case of pulling the speaker plugs out of one and into the other and the DAC interconnect) and i spent the whole weekend doing this. I was shocked i had just spent £2300.00 on an Amp that isnt even as good sounding as my 1990 PM50! Luckily i was able to return it for a full refund. I then started looking at other Amps and then realised that the PM12 was a Class D compared with my Class AB PM50. I then also read countless reviews regarding Class D not sounding as good as Class AB. I have now orderded the Marantz Model 50 (70 wpc and Class AB) which will be arriving this weekend and im hoping this will at least be equal to my PM50 or hopefully even a little better 😀👍
Class D amplifiers can really shine with small full range drivers like BMR speakers and some 2-way speakers with silk dome tweeters. There are some audiophiles that actually swear by inexpensive class D amplifiers like the Texas Instruments TPA 3116d2 based amps. I swear by 1970s to early 1980s class AB amplifiers.
I am amazed at the sound I can get from even a tiny class D amp. These amps are simply amazing for low volume listening.
Class D amplifiers of sufficient quality are finally beginning to impress me.....
but that doesn't mean I'm going to buy one.
Great video Paul. While the cost effective Class D's tempt me, I'd rather have better sound over energy efficiency. When I see that Class D's have begun to rule the roost, I will then take another look. For now, Class A or AB for sound quality.
Went class D running a pair of TAD S1-EX in Bi-amp and I can’t complain. Sometimes it’s a bit bright depends on source or the recording I should say but otherwise it’s pleasing. As Mostly I listen to jazz or classical music it’s more then satisfying.
Thank you for your First class explanation and opinion/experience of class AB and class D amplification.
yeah, I agree with you about class A and AB all vacuum tube input and output. I design them from the late 60 till now and compare with class D and there is no comparacion. Check the output of a fixed frequency in a scope. You be extremely surprised when seeing all that staircase on the output.
The residual switching frequency is way beyond what any speaker can output and will low pass filter the residual so it is irrelevant to the sound produced.
@G Guest Yes, the switching residual should be filtered within the amp but some class D amps do not include those filters which add some additional resistance so some manufacturers leave them out because the residual frequency (generally above 500kHz or in the MHz region) cannot be reproduced anyway. What counts is the distortion from the speaker output, not what might be observed on a scope.
@G Guest
Current Class D is up to 500KHz for the PWM frequency. Older Class D, especially for driving subwoofers, may only be 150KHz. Future GaN designs should be able to operate at MHz frequencies. Regardless, you can never remove 100% of the switching frequency residual; you need to accept that at some level, it is "low enough."
If an "audiophile" insists that *anything* visible on a scope must be relevant, then I have some experiments to show them.
Several years ago I got a (class D) ICEpower based amp and it was comparable to decent ABs. But I have to say that most recent designs of ucD-type amp modules (like new hypex) - they just outperform any AB amp out there, so we don't need to wait several years for that to happen - it's already there.
Very unbiased and prodessional feedback. Thanks for that
:-D
No description of sound quality difference?
What does "better" mean?
Infomercial: meh:-/
For classical a really black background is a big plus, and on the whole class D seems to deliver that more consistently. There are some A/B i've heard with that attribute - at a price...
I think there are some who like the concept of A/B ('free 'flowing' signal') and dislike the concept of D ('chopped up' segments), and that lurks behind a unrealistic bias - not to say that a 'genuine' preference does not exist. There is a lot a mud in water with tube input stages etc and some of the best AB I've heard (Linn) uses digital power supply, so not quite so black and white.
If you’re a Bass Player, you’ll *definitely* hear the difference between an old transformer based amplifier, and a newer Class D Power Amp...
... but I don’t necessarily enjoy the “weight” of those old amplifiers..
Yes, the euphonic even-order harmonic distortions of tube amplifiers and the slower transients and lower damping factor due to the output transformers definitely make obvious differences in the sound of tube amps and any solid-state amplifier.
Class D is untra sensitive to cureretn and when it gets friend it CAN TBE FIXED. I DON TLIKE CLASS D EVERS AGAINES! I dont like GALLIEN KRUEGERS. Just PEAVEY TRANSISTERS AMPlifiers combo unit 10 in speekers. DUgfg Mckagsn guns roses now uses Fender tube amp with or replaced Galienbs Krugers. KISS uses transisters nto APPEGS no more THANE YOU AND THUBMES UEPS!
i Love Cops , I love Good Cops. Peace brother.
@@santafemikez9694 don’t know if you’re talking to me or not, but I’ll chime in anyway…
i’m no expert, but Class D amplification has come a long way in 15 years... and I’m sure that there Will be a few of them these days that sound really good (with a lot of power- under 15 pounds)
... and while I still prefer the tone of an old transformer-based bass amp (tube and solid state) I can just tell you, that after lugging around an SVT with the 810 Cab, The Acoustic Control 360/361, A few Fender Rhodes, for years with 2 Hernia Operations following that,..
I can safely say that *Class D amplification* sounds just fine to me these days lol
Yes the hum
when youre the owner and acknowledge your product is expensive thats how customers trust the quality of the product
I switched to class D and was very careful about the design, so far very pleased with results, in my system. Design is important to avoid problems with mid and upper range sound.
Class D technology has seemed to have jumped leaps and bounds in recent years. Not to mention, why not find a company with a reasonable return policy and try one out for yourself? Instead of judging an amp on what class it is, see how it works and sounds in your system instead of basing it on the class of amp it is.
Fat Rat
Thanks very much, Rat!
@behexen250
I need to look into that!
@behexen250
I see cables, line conditioners and headphones in their Lending Library, but what other products can be borrowed?
Link: www.thecableco.com/lending-library
behexen250
That’s a good idea. I’ve already been signed up on their mailing list for years, but I’ve never taken advantage of their lending program. Thanks!
Good answer. Also important to note that a designer who really knows what he is doing can make a class D and it can outperform a large percentage of the class AB out there that may not have had that level of expertise and care in the fine details of the design.
You totally did not acknowledge Bob Carver - the genius who created A/B amplifiers with the efficiency exceeding that of Class-D with his tracking-downconverter.
I'll give you one guess, what class that tracking downconverter is.
Carver was and is a great innovator -- but his stuff doesn't hold up well and is notoriously difficult to repair.
@@editorjuno I'm still rocking hard with my 30 year old 150w Carver integrated amplifier. Has never been recapped and the sonic holographic engine, in conjunction with my horn-loaded Klipsch speakers, still creates some of the best sound stages I ever heard. Reliability has never been an issue.
@@Artemis_Prix -- You're lucky. I am too -- I have a piece of equally old Luxman gear that's also all-original and still works flawlessly.
I think it was Bob who took class D amps to another level when he brought a pair of them to a function plunked them down on a table plugged them in and output 500 watts each no transformer!!! Jaws dropped!
Bought an NAD d3045 two weeks ago and have a Denon dra-800h Class AB 2 channel AVR. I like both for different reasons. Enjoyed the video:)
Bass rig related:
I'm looking for a bass rig that's light, compact, transportable. Class D suits this need.
Alas, every class d bass amp I've tried, with the same speaker, bass guitar, leads and cables, sounds awful. It's either to muddy or to brittle and bright. I simply can't get the same tones from Class D as I can with my Class A-AB amps...
Since many Class D users abuse me and accuse me of "Hating Class D", it's really hard to find an intelligent answers that's not biased or discriminatory. I assure you this is not the case. I simply haven't found one I've that's worked for me...
What am I doing wrong?
Try Class D amps with the new Purifi modules. Opinions will still vary.
John Darko said something great in one of his videos about caring about the last 5% your system can gain from upgrading etc. He then went on to say that people like him are able to notice or care about that percent, but that not necessarily everyone does. It seems like that's the case with class AB or class D.
It’s ICEPower Amplifiers from Bang & Olufsen
Intelligent Compact Efficient (ICE Power)
why dont you guys take amp say from year or two and mass perduce it i know you can controll the out come i mean its last years model but it would lower the price for hi end audio i mean why not we need good sound face it if we dont know what good sound is how do we know what to buy and what are we hearing.okay back in the 80s some of the audio like stereo studio sold low end like ads nad harmon so for $150 bucks you could get scott reciver with say0.005 thd and it sounded good but there was higher audio that did not sound any better but was better because of the snake oil real snake oil bs crap they fed us.i have good ears i hear things most dont like fleckels cicks zaps distotions therw recordings threw outlets oh ya it drives me nuts but when i cant listen to music because of this it makes me think noise bocking built in a power condioner i know it would cost to do but how do we live in homes apartments that power is crap good sound should not cost so much as it dose.but thd mixed with line noise from your outlet power condition is what i need but they cost moer than i could aford so this is why i saying this build it in to it so the poor amp has a chance to get rid of some noise so it sounds clean not fizziy or pop and the best one voltage drop right in the middel of song the sound in about 2-3secounds just fall on low volts amps and sound goes to distrotion and its time turn it off.but the ones that dont do that is qsc amp i used for live events but the thd is 0.1%and it sucks down 12 amps but i dont get those shifts in those way like i sed and at this point i have music .but the way thats built is a true amp i can count on i have others sound tec its livly and full sound but my fristed class d amp going in the right but it dont have ice so you get swiching from the amp its a barringer but it takes i like350 watts and gives 170 at 8 oms i think its brite mid range is live and dont fall on its head but i was dj-ing at this time . its the recivers that disapoint me not the dj amps the fact is they sound almost as good to all the rest .im a siant vinney audio file cause of my apartment i live in.im not try to give a sob story but life is hard and not evrey one bennifits from life its just afact.but i can still listen to my music.i have good ears so i can hear over the noise but not all the time somtimes you just say no.
@@jumpsuite power conditioners suck the life out of the music! They aren't any benefit unless you live in a third world country with crappy electricity.
Where do you live? I'm from Scotland UK and the electricity to my outlets is fine. No noise and no audible THD when listening to my bookshelf and on wall speakers.
My amplifiers, speakers are very low distortion. Maybe you need to upgrade your amplifiers and speakers to better specced lower distortion ones.
I've only ever had one amp fail on me and of course it was a class d on a powered subwoofer.
There's even class G and H amplifiers. And I've read a combo of Class G/H amplifier is suppose to have some of the best resolution while still having the efiiciency of a class D amp. Regarding Class D amps, I've also read that ICE Class D amplifiers are the best out there.
Latest class D are very good and supply a lot of power for the buck, if you want to drive a pair of difficult speakers, low rendement and or low impediance
Clive Sinclair in the UK released the X10 Pulse Width Modulation amplifier in 1964. This was an early version of what has now become known as Class D. These amps did not give the output power stated and radiated a huge amount of radio frequency interference. A Class D amp works in a similar way to a switch mode power supply so the best quality amps must have very good filtering, which many now do. Class D amplifiers will probably dominate the hi-fi market in the next few years due to their high efficiency, small size, sound quality and bang for the buck., makers of so called expensive “high end” amplifiers are in for a hard time.
No, the high end makers just take the same internals, add a few gimmicks such as a tube input stage, put it in a snazzy case, and charge the gullible 5x what it's worth. The law of diminishing returns will always allow them to get away with justifying the cost, based on a claimed subtle improvement - which of course you won't hear unless you're a *real audiophile.*
If they can sell $20K speaker cables . . .
Marianne Oelund yes you are probably correct. A fool and his money are soon parted.
I see more useful Class D for low and mid frequencies because the high pass filter makes the high frequencies listen bad, and AB, G and H for mid and high frequencies because of fidelity and quality
I have to agree
Bob Ross of amplifiers: Aint no bad amplifiers, just a happy accidents. :)
Going by what Darren said a few days ago about class D distortion I would conclude that a good class A-B would be superior even when you balance (mask) said distortion with a tube input. With that said a non-critical listener who wants the most amount of watts for your money would be happiest with class D.
The interesting thing is that the opposite seems to be the case: manufacturers/professionals I've seen use class D for critical listening and A-B for shows, because people consider them more "high end".
At the end of the day, class A usually has much higher distortion than a good class D amp like Purifi, which has a THD of 0.0001% compared to fx. the PS Audio flagship BHK with 0.1%.
@@LordVictorHalgaard The thing with THD is that .1% is imperceptible and while much lower numbers look impressive it does not really gain you anything sound wise . What Darren was saying is Class D has a wide spectrum type distortion (a new type of distortion ) at higher outputs that makes the music seem louder(that some people may think sounds better) but it's not accurate and a vacuum tube input counteracts this with slight compression at high outputs .While we would like our amplifiers to be like a wire with gain , truth is all amps color the music somewhat , at the end of the day it's what sounds most natural to us.
Fat Rat
Very true, Rat.
Lee Kumiega
Excellent explanation, Lee.
@@leekumiega9268
No, Darren was not saying the M1200 has "wide spectrum type" distortion, as though it were some new type. His actual words were, "at higher amplitudes, the spectrum of the distortion becomes more complex." He went on to make a comparison of a stick striking wood, with "just a few harmonics associated with it," against a snare drum which is "almost like a square wave, so it's very high-ordered."
This is ordinary THD, but I haven't seen any SPD plots for it. However the numbers from ICEpower look quite good: Under 0.01% with a 4 ohm load up to 1000W at 100Hz or 1KHz, or up to 800W at 6.67KHz. That shouldn't be audible, so I don't know why Darren was discussing it as something to compensate for, starting at modest power levels above 100W. Maybe with some very pure sinusoidal test signals, you could start to hear distortion that slight, but I thought this was supposed to be about music.
if people could accept, then class D with PWM modulation frequency > 1.41M should be the same quality as DSD64(SACD).
I have a full digital system that could provide very good performance... so we use that as monitor system
I bought a couple of old adcom amps lately a 545ii and 535ii. I built a dual monoblock using icepower 200asc and ac modules. If they are representative of class d I'll pass. The old adcom just sound better. I know the geeks grow teeth and wave ASR measurements around, but I am interested in listening to music and right now those old amps do that best for me. I wonder if something exists, that adds to the enjoyment, that is not even being measured by those bench tests. NOW, when you consider size and price new vs new I can see the charm. But I'm 47 and will likely refresh older stuff, maybe try to build an AB and that will be how I hear the harps playing. That is if I can afford anything in this new world we're entering.
Bash amplifier used hybrid D and AB circuits. Class D input feeds the AB output.
I Have 4 crown 2502 but when I plugged in a monlith mothlith 7x to my frount stage of my system the authority of the amplifer is insane I heard a difference sound was effort less the bass was tight and
But still crown xls drivecore 2 is far from perfect. For sound quality, I would not pick them, but for a budget system in need of much power, they are a good choice.
It’s what you hear that counts not the stair case on the scope.
love your videos!
I've been seeing some super high end class D amps that blow everything else away. I'm seeing THD+N at rated power below the threshold of most measuring instruments across the entire audio spectrum. But those amps cost thousands of dollars at the moment. It's going to be a while before that technology and engineering becomes mainstream. But the tech exists today. And it blows everything else away. I see a day when people will wonder why anyone would buy anything other than class D.
Class D is great for low frequencies. A big economical advantage. And sucks a lot less power out of your power grid. But im sticking to class a/b for now with my H/K signature 2.1.
all is done to save a few output transistors , some aliminium as heat sink and a few cents of electricity comes with better efficiency . it is not for better sound .
I know Class D is light weight! I have a couple EV DJ speakers with Class D amps, 12" 2-way speaker with amp weighs about 35 lbs!
For speakers, the bulk of the weight isn't exactly the amplifier inside. And 35lbs is quite lightweight for PA speakers. I have a PA speaker with 1200 watts of amplification in it and the high power is of course facilitated by the class D amp. And it weighs more than 20 kg. My guess is that the whole dsp and amplifier inside weighs less than 4 kg. We would have had far less active monitors if it wasn't for the class D technology.
@@oysteinsoreide4323 I have the EV ZLX-12 speakers which are 34 lbs/piece (plastic enclosures). As far as I know earlier speakers had class a/b amps with huge heat sinks, which added quite a bit of weight. These speakers sounds great to me, I use them at community events and fundraiser auctions. Much lighter and convenient than having a separate amp crate to carry around and hook up, also redundancy since each speaker has it's own amp.
Between Class D amplification and neodymium speaker magnets, powered PA speakers are getting remarkably light these days, to say the least!
I have DL4160 4 Channel Class AB where it was manufactured and when plz??
AGD Audio Vivace mono blocks sounds excellent irrespective of class type ..
@Lloyd Stout : hold on ... I meant say even its class D .. sounds so. Good .. when I enters room I did not know I was listening class D .. by that I floored by the sound .. so what’s problem here ?
I'm listening to this on a class D Amp! Clean and cool!
Hello! Can anyone (who has the equipment) measure intermodulation distortion of any good class D amplifier? For example, we have two signals with difference of 1kHz. We start from 2000Hz and finish to 15kHz. It would be very interesting!
There are some amzing class D amps out there. The technology is coming on strong!
Fiio used to make an amazing class D amp. Rated 5 stars on Amazon. I have one. Not real powerful, but amazing sound.
I have the S300 and I love it!
It's a decent amp, but unexceptional -- especially considering its price point.
I want to learn how to build these
Class D tend to be cool running and compact for the output. I once tried a Jeff Rowland integrated. It was very refined and "nice" but lacked a bit of oomph and bite for my taste and still went for AB.
Don't class D use op amps ? I thought they were inferior and introduce noise ?
They're so "inferior" and "introduce" so much "noise" that there are dozens of trusty little NE5532 chips -- a 30+ year old design -- in Paul McGowan's pride and joy, Neil Young's old Studer mixing desk. Enough said.
Bruce Morgen . Even Paul admitted his class AB beats his class D. So what I’m saying is the need for opamps could be why.
@@wildcat1065 -- Class D doesn't require the use of op-amps and PS Audio avoids using them, favoring their own Class A front ends, IMO with somewhat dubious results in actual performance. Moreover, Paul isn't really admitting anything -- he's promoting his more expensive (and profitable) Class AB (and Class A?) products, which makes total business sense. The thing to remember about him is that he's much more of a businessman and marketing guy than a tech guru -- he's very honest about the fact that he has no formal engineering background and learned what he knows "on the fly" via immersion in the audio industry, where he knows pretty much everybody who's anybody.
@Fat Rat -- That's not what he's doing these days. He's a pitchman and very good at it. I concede that there are more than a few self-taught engineers that are very good at what they do, having worked with a couple of them over the years, but Paul wisely depends on his staff -- folks like Darren and Chris -- and outside consultants to actually engineer the products he offers. I respect the fact that he knows his limitations in that regard.
@Fat Rat -- Sorry, I just figured you'd misspelled the word and I didn't want to come off like a nitpicker. I find myself deeply distrusting self-styled "golden eared" audio gurus, especially those with pricey gear to sell. I've found over my many years that, with the possible exception of the somewhat more mysterious art/science of speaker system and headphone design, audible excellence tracks very closely with measurable excellence -- hence my duly considered opinion that ASR's reviews comprise a much better baseline than anything the subjective reviewers have to say about a product. Peace
Any take on Bruno Putzey’s latest project which happens to be the Eigentakt class-D module by Purify?
The company is actually called "Purifi" -- here's some detailed lab results on the module.
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-purifi-1et400a-amplifier.7984/
Would you link the video with Darren?
Where is the point of diminishing return with amps? I'm not really up to date, still running a stack of old GFA Adcom's!
It really depends on how much you expect, but I'd say the best I've come across, as to where diminishing returns sets in are implementations of Hypex nCore or now Purifi, like you see in the NAD M22, or Benchmark, which are not overtly expensive (though not cheap), but very hard to beat.
But there are of course cheaper amps which are very popular as well. But personally that's where I don't see significant improvements moving up, beyond different flavours.
FWIW, I now use a little sub-$50USD (+ about $25USD for a suitable SMPS) Chinese-made power amp -- based on a single TI TPA3255 Class D IC and a couple of their classic NE5532 op amp chips -- that puts my good old Adcom GFA-535 to shame in every respect.
I think it's around $3k.
I think that CLASS D has a bad reputation because the quality changes between manufacturers, from the entire system to drivers to mosfets, so it´s hard to get a very good sense and comparison between them, AB is more consistent between the board, but D have some VERY bad examples!
I personally can sense the flicker in class D it sometimes gives me a headache . I went AB on both amps and I do not regret it.
Class D? Bah, I'd even go down to Sprout100 and be happy as a clam. Oh wait -- I have! And hell does it capture the "essence of the music" too! Yes, professionals, recording musicians and _very_ discerning audiophiles living in castles and mansions (at the very least) should and, sometimes but certainly not always, will be able to tell, feel and acknowledge the difference and therefore insist on their ABs. For me, a bit of progress and efficiency is very very welcome.
Can you hear the diffetence between a class a/ b or class d? You say class a/b are better. In what respect?
Class d sounds good to me for the money.yes it has some funny spots in the band but it may be enclosure or sub🤷🏻♂️but i had a full range class d and the lows was not there.but what do i know only been doing this 8 months.
So the takeaway here is that engineering is the bottom line in the end, yes? It used to be that you would choose your amp based upon your musical tastes, with older recordings it certainly helps when its played back with the same tech it was recorded with, thats for sure!
Paul.. In class D how which frequencies is the distortion (or does it change according to the signal) .. Please direct me to a video (via link) or comment . Thanks :)
AB with a Darlington pair of Xsisters!
Great video, Salutes from buenos aires, argentina.
I saw a lot of AB and D. Why no talks on G?
Does Class D have crossover distortion? Is it absent or is it buried in high frequency switching noise?
So eventually there will be, for all practical purposes, a classless society for audiophiles?
@Fat Rat Yup. I know that the glass may be 'only' half full, but 'only' is over rated. It's what you do with what you've got. "Come on up for the rising." -- Bruce
Anyone know what’s amplifier class AB with H means ?
Does the sound quality of class D amp depend on the RF susceptibility of other gears in the hi-fi system?
Class D means bass only means I’ll fry your sub that pushes more Rms. Class A & B mean both bass and Rms means bigass speaker throwing everything. Means if u want both class ab for both or go separate Class D in the back and Ab in front lows and highs wrong setups will pop them amps
Full class A till I can’t move them. The sound is intoxicating. Class d still too sterile for me. Maybe in 5 yrs.
You need to try a good class D amplifier. My class D power stereo amplifier is a studio quality amplifier with no SMPS like the majority of class D amplifiers sold.
Instead it has two linear power supply's and a massive toroidal transformer. Sounds better more transparent than the majority of class AB amplifiers I've heard 🎶
I don't think people will really appreciate the difference since a lot are consuming compressed audio xD
Definitely offer both Paul. At least offer a class D for a subwoofer line as subs are not as revealing. I am hard pressed to say class D is there yet.
Price no object, I have heard no class A or AB amps that can compete with the best Class D amps, in spite of the tremendous price difference. But you do have to get the right class D circuit, and ICE ain’t it, sadly.
A and AB do still usually have a more ‘musical’ tonality, but in every other aspect good Class D boards have in my experience been far more resolving, precise etc.; basically Class D seems technically/objectively better, but A/AB still seems subjectively better, if that makes sense.
Lord Victor Halgaard So which class D design is the best?
@G Guest
"Do shielded power cables make a difference?" NO. Not unless you have a huge electrical field in your listening room that can interact with the power cable.
@G Guest It's definitely not anything like the "shielded power cables" discussion, in the sense that there is a LOT of data to work with here, and very obvious differences, unlike with the cables, which are usually considered dubious at best.
I'm perfectly aware how the amplifiers work, and that hasn't given any solid answers: sure class A has no switching noise, but yet most still end up with a colossal amount of distortion compared to class D amps like Purifi.
I'd love more detailed analysis of both circuit types compared...
At the end of the day, what I, and many professionals I've dealt with find, is at this point a technical superiority in class D, in what comes out of the speakers at the end - but at the same time a warmer/meatier sound that many prefer in class A, combined with a lot of the usual stigma, nostalgia and conservatism found in HIFI, keeping class A at the top, which makes it hard to get class D out there. Not to mention its much more difficult to design/make well.
This is generally an endless discussion as most things in hifi, because of those last issues.
@@jonlaws4493 Hard to say: on paper Purifi is the best at the moment, and it is certainly very good, and better than most - but it is not quite as precise sounding in practise as some of Pascal's circuits found in Studio applications and I believe some very expensive amps like Aavik.
There are more, but the general issue is that most of them are not readily available to consumers yet, as they are either quite new designs, or not as widely used as ICE or Hypex which are more established at this point - and neither of them are bad by the way, just not the best at this point. (though nCore is still keeping up well in fx. Benchmarks iterations)
@@LordVictorHalgaard
If Class D is so much more difficult to design and make, why is the price per watt of class D so low?
but class D is everywhere. in our phones and laptops. even you are using class AB amplifier. still class D amplifier is the source signal.
Thanks Paul!
The Marantz Model 30 is a class D and it’s absolutely beautiful. It sounds amazing paired up to my Kef Reference 1s with the Model 30n SACD / Streamer. Class D can sound amazing
It's amazing how 9 months ago Class D was almost as good as class AB or Class A for that matter, But wow! What 9 months in research does is astonishing, cant believe how some of the best of class D amplifiers costing a fraction now surpasses all the classes of Amplification..
lol.
C’mon dude…
@@babolababs4732
Specs, performance, usage and tests using up to date test equipment is testament, that a properly designed and assembled Class D
Amplifier reigns Supreme, mind you most everyday workaday Audio enthusiast are so brainwashed by past hype, they will never ever get to test "even Mediocre ones" to see for themselves just how blardy much better they are, Only true way to know who's with the hype from what the actual TOP type is, is to own and test the various classes of amplifiers for yourself using your own Test equipment..
@@KorAllRBare Sure, but Class D isn't and won't be everyone's cup of tea. Definitely not the "ring to rule them all". Class D measures really well, up to and sometimes over the A and AB as well as G amps, but that's the measurement, not the actual and real listening experience, which for every person will be very subjective. I have Yamaha A-S1200 Class AB amp and the NAD C388, Class D one. They're connected to the same set of speakers via the switch. Guess which one I enjoy listening more? The AB, similarly to tube amps tends to 'color' the sound and provide a different sound stage both in depth and width, whereas Class D is clear to the point of being sterile. Some people will like this but may won't, otherwise everyone's should be ditching their linear and tube amps in favour of Class D amps, which isn't and hasn't been the case for all this time.
The "Class D is better and has over taken everything else" was the statement we have heard many many years ago, (I have been into hifi for 30+ years and first time I heard this was some 15 years ago) even when the D wasn't even close to the others and outside of hifi domain, and this will likely continue in the future. But the amp manufacturers will not suddenly stop making amps and receivers in other classes. Instead there will be likely a balance of people owning Class D and other classes of amps. Bruno Putzey has paved a fantastic path of inclusion of the Class D amps into the audiophile and hifi domain and continue to do so, but the many challenges around well designed and implemented Class D module still remain, he and few like him just managed to find a way to minimize the impact.
And no, I'm not one of those people you mention above with blinkers on or being brainwashed, I have been around for quite a chunk of time in this hobby and I can tell you my NAD PWM amp will not replace my Yamaha any time soon but remain as an option I'd like to switch on or off from time to time when I want that un-colored, dear I say slightly uninspiring and sterile sound stage.
Not disagreeing with you, just saying from my own point of view what my experience has been so far in this area. Cheers.
As I said @@drazenbabich For decades I appreciated a 100 Wrms for it's clean extra Dynamic Power and yet rich and full sounding reproduction "The hype convinced me this was a good thing" But when I compared my old Amp with my Current Class D I was at first befuddled as to why the class D produced a much more faithful reproduction in my test scope and yet to me sounded as if the music was not rich or full "no matter what the content or genre"
The class D simply had a cleaner and more precise signal closer to the input, whilst my Old amp seemed to add something extra into the wave forms as they were just off a little "it actually made it sound fuller", anyway it took a while, but now I am revolted at the sound of tainted music, thankfully An Oscilloscope makes that painfully obvious..
"I like bees but not when they sting me! " you don't say Paul haha how profound your statements can be
You should name you're small new dual mono ice amplifiers Ice Ice baby all about that switching power supply especially in valve Gear can't beat it
To speak about classes haven't no sense except when each classe is conceived and builted at its best (at its state-of-the-art) before comparison.
My opinion: the best is classe A, then classe D and then AB.
Transistor classes, not tube ones.
WOW Paul that's a quite long power cord, do you use it as an extension?
I think it is a water hose.
any thoughts on Hypex?.. I've been so on the fence with splurging on Barefoot MM45 studio monitors that use 3 tri-amp of the Hypex per side over a traditional mixing setup of Proac Studio 100's amped by a Bryston 4B SST
They're really, really good -- a bunch of Hypex modules are used in the highly-integrated Kii Three system, which delivers some of the best audio performance on the planet from very compact enclosures. It goes for something around $20kUSD. IIRC, Bruno Putzeys was the lead designer.
Check for Hypex NC500 or even better NC1200. You won’t regret it. Even pro audio studios use it. I am very happy with it.
My experience on a mid-fi level was Class D had more punch and was better for Movies, but for Music especially at high levels Class A/B just sounded so much sweeter. that was a few years ago. i Run Class A/B now and are very happy. But depending on your speakers and what yo listen to, you need to compare them for yourself. my understanding is Class D has come along way but i'm not ready to go back.
interesting topic but too complex to do generalization.
personally class d has to many benefits besides sound that i benefit from. ab has so many drawbacks that i can not own them.
@G Guest size, heat, powerdraw.
nothing audio related.
I replaced my monoblocks with A A/B format with Class D . . . and I am sorry, there is far more silence, detail, 3-D imaging, tonal beauty, and vocal detail in what I now have . . . than what I did with the monoblocks, which cost a lot more.
I'm curious which ones you got? The issue is that most HiFi people are still thinking about the early forms of class D like ICE, from the 90's, which weren't very nice sounding - a LOT has changed since then.
Just look at the efficiency of the Class D. Class A at idle is a mess 50% loss.
Tried class d on a two way speaker once, and never again, its fine for subwoofer but not for a speaker, the mids are terrible, the high is completely gone, im not an audiophile but its bad enough to make me avoid it
Tried a PC once. It was horribly slow and deficient in storage, with a terrible user interface. Couldn't store more than 10 JPEG photos on its hard drive, not to mention that its OS and graphics didn't even support displaying them. I'll never touch a PC again.
One is superior. Switch mode power is the best. Show me how that's not the case. You can't, because when you understand the difference, there's no question. Kind of like tube versus solid state.
As for signal processing. Digital slays. Photography, digital slays film. These are demonstrable facts.
Class D is OK. In the end it’s an audio industry topology that makes good power for cheap. I take issue that certain companies are charging $$$ for Class D’s whereas for the same money, one could get a better Class A or A/B.
Can u get 4500 watts for 550$ in class ab??
That's where I'm currently sitting right now. I don't require more than 10W of power as I'll be using high efficiency speakers. Most decent amplifiers cost between 1000~3000€ and about half of these models are class D. Prices shoot up with streaming functionality. I decided to bite the bullet and get a custom-made class A tube amp for 1800€. I thought that Class D would disrupt the market with high value offerings. That is so far from the case right now. Class A/B is as expensive/cheaper.
@@user-xg6zz8qs3q We think the same!
Paul is saying it well. A passionate audio engineer can make a great sounding class D amplifier and a not passionate audio engineer can make a poor sounding class A amplifier. ICEpower originates from the late 90s in Denmark with a guy Karsten Nielsen who did a Phd project in collaboration with Bang & Olufsen. ICEpower is sort of green technology. It's energy efficient = cold = ice. The Beolab 1 active speaker got based on ICEpower released in 1997 as a first. I have a pair of these speakers that have lasted me 22 years now with zero problems. One great quality of class D is in fact that it runs cold and thus can last much longer than very hot amp technology involving class A and tubes. I use them in my home theater setup as front speakers. They still work perfectly fine. Each speaker has 3 amplifiers in it with the bass being ICEpower of 450 Watts and the treble, and mid-range each being class AB at 125W for total 700 Watts per speaker. The cabinet is heavy aluminum, so box vibrations are as non-existing as they can be. For set of home theatre front speakers in a 5.1 setup, I'm not sure I can find anything much better and great is that the speakers use ICEpower only for the bass where class D makes the most value and doesn't hurt audio fidelity.
But not by a lot?.
No, they are pretty much tied at this point - class D is arguably technically superior now, but preferences vary. Paul always prefers a more musical/pleasant sound, so he prefers class A, if you like a more technical/analytical sound, good class D may suit you better.
No class d amps sounds distort then class ab
So how come you are using 'ICE Power' technology, shouldn't you be using 'PS Audio' technology.
Paul quite sensibly decided that his engineering team didn't have the specialized Class D expertise to outdo what he could simply buy in OEM module form. Dozens of other "high-end" companies have come to the same conclusion.
After using AB tube, and solid state amps for 60 years, I got the two Class D monoblocks from Emotiva. I have very high admiration of these Emotiva Class D amps! Indistinguishable from the many AB's I used previously, except for having wider dynamic response.
Aren't they class H?
Didn't Bob Carver prove that topology is irrelevant , it's all about implementation.
Provided you start with a capable topology. He proved his SS amp could emulate a high-end tube amp, but you wouldn't get very far trying to go the other way.
ΕΙΣΤΕ ΓΝΩΣΤΗΣ ΤΟΥ ΑΝΤΙΚΕΙΜΕΝΟΥ....ΜΠΡΑΒΟ ΑΠΟ ΕΛΛΑΔΑ
Technics new SU-G700 is the best class-D amp I‘ve experienced so far. This has nothing to do with class-D anymore.
Technics SU-G700 is not class D, class AA i read somewhere. but its says digital amp in the literature whatever that means.
G Guest The XTZ A2-300 made me like class-D. The Technics SU-G700 made me love it. This amp blew all my prejudices against class-D away.